Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Cultural Reconnection Through Ink: Simon Ross and Indigenous Tattoo Storytelling
#045 Simon Ross invites us into the vibrant world of Indigenous tattoo artistry, sharing his journey of cultural reconnection and storytelling through his tattoos. Discover how a chance encounter at a tattoo festival with Dion Kaszas, a Hungarian Métis and Nlaka'pamux tattoo artist, sparked a collaboration that went beyond mere body art. Their work is a testament to the deep personal and cultural connections that Indigenous tattoos embody, blending traditional hand poke techniques with contemporary interpretations that honor ancestry and cultural narratives.
Take a step into a historic gathering at the Museum of Vancouver, where Indigenous tattoo artists from diverse cultures, including Maori and Cherokee, unified to mark a pivotal moment in Canada's Indigenous tattoo movement. Simon reflects on the Nlaka'pamux Blackwork Project, a transformative initiative that fostered emotional and cultural reconnection, revealing unexpected familial ties within communities. This gathering underscored the importance of Indigenous presence in cultural spaces, promoting unity and support among community members while highlighting the growth of Indigenous tattoo artistry.
Explore the broader implications of Indigenous tattoos, from personal transformation to cultural identity, and learn about the empowering role of Indigenous leadership programs at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity. Simon discusses the significance of visual representation in storytelling and the mentorship that helps preserve and evolve Indigenous tattoo practices. This episode serves as a heartfelt reminder of our collective power to create positive change and supports Indigenous voices while celebrating their artistry and heritage.
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
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I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, Arts Nova Scotia and Support4Culture.
I was sharing the story of all the imagery and the artwork and the project, and one of his first questions were so if we had a greater number of people understanding what our visual images represent, would then, when they look at my, my artwork, would they be able to interpret the story?
Speaker 2:the transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is dion kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Simon Rawls and I'm Inka Katma. I come from Two Mile in Lytton. My family names are Isaac and Jumbo on my mom's side, and then on my dad's side is Sam's. My grandparents are Ada and Leonard, jumbo or Isaac. My uncle, terry, gave me the name Shieshko, which is really translating into icy water, and so I was adopted out as an infant and I was brought up in a non-Indigenous family in North Vancouver, but I was able to reconnect with family in 2000. So that's who I am.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, I'm stoked to have you on. You know, I guess we're all here in merit just for what we're calling the Infocopmoc Blackwork Roundup, and so we just finished. What? When did we start your tattoo, do you remember?
Speaker 1:Oh, the initial hand poke tattoo is at the Calgary Tattoo Fest, no, the Edmonton Tattoo Festival. And, like six years ago, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow. Well, yeah, let's actually go there how we actually first met, because it's actually quite an interesting and cool way this project has actually unfolded. So for people who are watching that have no idea what I'm talking about, inca Catmuc Blackwork is a style that I've created, is a style that I've created contemporary Inca Catmoc tattoo style that helps to embody our visual language, and so I started this project where I ask people to come in and receive work, and so some folks, like yourself, is double sleeves across the chest and back, others are body suits, just one sleeve, and so there's a variety of people. And so, yeah, let's maybe go through that storyline of how we actually met, because I think it's pretty cool, and then we can go into what the connections have been as we've moved into the project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's you're right in a sense, because where this all began was my wife, linda, and I were meeting up with a friend at the Calgary Tattoo Fest about six, seven years ago I can't remember which but Linda and I have always been talking about sort of different type of tattoos and I've always wanted to sort of look at some of the indigenous art.
Speaker 1:I spent a lot of time on the west coast and so as we toured all the vendors around the Calgary tattoo festival, really in a sense there was two indigenous artists and one is being yourself and another one was doing hawaiian style, um, hand poke or or uh, tattooing. So but it was interesting because we, as we were walking by, we stopped and started flipping through your portfolio and I said by by happen chance to to my wife um, around, the image that sort of is iconic for the stein valley, uh, of the owl and the two goats. And I said I said to her, I said that's inkratma, and your head turned immediately, yeah, and you and you looked at me and you go.
Speaker 1:You know what you're talking about yeah and from there, as you were doing, uh, work on a one of your participants, or or I don't know what you call them in those, those, festival clients in the festival environment like that.
Speaker 1:Uh, and we had had the brief conversation and we talked about was there an opportunity, possibly during that show, to try and get an appointment with yourself to actually do a hand poke traditional tattoo of the image from the the asking rock in the stein valley? Um, we weren't able to, but then we started the conversation and it wasn't. I think it was, uh, a year and a bit later that we were actually able to meet up in edmonton. Yeah and uh, you did the first traditional hand poke tattoo from me.
Speaker 2:I know it's kind of crazy. Hey, that's what I was actually saying. I just came from the true tribal exhibition that I opened up at the Museum of Vancouver and you know, of course, at the opening they want you to do a speech, and so I had a speech ready and I went up to give my speech, my talk to the gathering, and I was just looking around and I'm like wow, you know the amount of practitioners that are here. There's probably like 20 or 30 indigenous tattoo artists, cultural practitioners, in that one venue that one night. And so I said no, uh, you know, I'm not going to do a speech, I just asked everybody to come up and introduce themselves and where they they're from, and there was like a whole lineup that filled the whole one wall of that opening. And that's what I actually said to.
Speaker 2:That gathering was like you know, there was a time that it was just me and maybe one Poly, a auditorium in canada filled with that many practitioners at what one time? And it was a really a truly international gathering. You know, maori, filipino, uh, cherokee, from down in the states, all across turtle island there's some other, uh, fujian, you know like. So it was an international gathering and I was like that's probably the biggest gathering of indigenous tattoo artists and cultural practitioners to date in canada, and so to hear you say, yeah, it was just you and the polynesian guy in the convention, you know, makes me think of that. So it's pretty cool to see where the movement's gone. Yeah, but, and so in what I think it was 2019 or 2020 I did a call out for the intercott mcblackwork project. What was your first thoughts when you seen that coming out?
Speaker 1:well, the initial thought is is I have to be a part of this? I I think and I think over this period of time that we've done this is that we've had great conversation around the importance of me being a participant within the project.
Speaker 1:So when the call out was there, I was like so quickly to fill out the application and send it off to you Because it was so cool and I think, just the initial experience at the Edmonton Convention and being able to have really deep, interesting conversations around indigeneity, around tattoos, around the significance of them. In that, first tattoo, just one is create a trust for me to work with you yeah. First tattoo, just one, is create a trust for for me to work with you yeah, um. And two, to really get a greater insight to understanding who I am, where I come from and how the tattoos are enhancing a representation of, uh, who I am as an ingle capan person.
Speaker 2:yeah, so yeah, it was pretty cool to receive your application.
Speaker 2:I was like yep we're totally going there, yeah and then, um, you know there has been some interesting connections that have come about. I think we'll circle back to what the experience of you know doing the work has been. You know it was interesting because I was sharing with my brother-in-law, wes, and he was going to do the photography for your session when you came up this way and he was like wait, what, simon? Yeah, and then he looks to my sister. He's like I'm not sure of your mom's name, but he was like Auntie So-and-so, that's Auntie So-and-so's, and it was just kind of cool. So I just wanted to highlight, you know, some of the connections, the realities that develop from projects like this that we have no idea that are going to happen are just like groundbreaking, like you know, transformational in a different type of way.
Speaker 1:So I just wanted to bring that up and just ask you to respond or, you know, share anything you feel about that you know, it was an incredible honor to sort of meet west through this process and to to meet your sister the same time, and then also to understand that I think, as Wes said, is related to my cousin Travis in Lytton, and Travis is my mom's brother's Terry boy in that sense, brothers, terry boy in that sense of.
Speaker 1:So it it brings a lot of sort of interconnectedness, as, as you're saying, in the sense that through this project itself, it's been a greater awareness to the breadth of people that are involved, yeah, to the sort of knowledge and care as much as I am, if we want to call it, a scoopy or or disconnected and not brought up in in my community and culture in that sense.
Speaker 1:But to be able to reconnect in that way and to once again think about and to once again think about some of the key pieces as Indigenous people on how we relate and how we open our arms and how we are very accepting and forgiving at the same time, to be shown that love and acceptance so quickly and eagerly, um, it's just incredible, um, so it helps fill my heart because there was pieces of my heart that I think as being adopted out, uh, has impacted my life definitely, yeah, um, and to know that through this process that there is growing, yeah, my own incalcapable identity is growing in that way, yeah, um, which is very powerful, so, uh, but also to have wes supporting through that process, uh, and the care that he showed and the ability to create space and to create a safety environment, that, uh, as much as I experienced a variety of different emotions, uh, he was there to help, yeah, and it was incredibly grateful, so yeah, yeah, that was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:I like that always blows my mind that, you know, just because of that, you know, one time you in the and I would there's two thoughts there. It was cool to experience. Oh, this all actually started from being at that convention, yeah, and so part of that for me, when I think about, especially in terms of the podcast and putting it out there, is like that speaks to the importance of us as indigenous people and practitioners, to be in those spaces right To support our community who's walking through, you know. So that's the first thing, and the other thing is like how that one thing actually led to you meeting family through the project that were part of the project. Like it's just it blows my mind.
Speaker 2:It is yeah To have that happen and yeah, to think about it. Like we just don't know the impact that these things have and impacts that we never really even intended. It just that's the way that it works. It's so cool to see, um, when you think about, uh, the receiving of the work, um, you know the actual embodying of the marks. When you think about that, what has been your experience with the process of getting marked? And then also what has been that, uh, how have they lived in the world? I suppose you could say those are.
Speaker 1:those are good questions, um. I I think the the process was, uh, it was pretty cool in the sense that you and I had spent a good amount of time talking about my journey to when we started the marking side of things, and you were able to listen very deeply and understand my connections to how I relate to the natural world, how I relate to the type of work that I do and how I wanted to embody the symbolism or the visual aspect of our language or our traditional territory, and you incorporated that, or embedded that all within the art that you designed and presented to me in going, oh, we could do this. And when you were able to share that rendition, the digital rendition, I was just like, yeah, that's incredible and that. So that was the first initial thought to it. And then, when we came into the first session in in edmonton, when you did my uh, the start of both sleeves on my arms, um, I had no idea on how long it took.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then to understand that we only got two thirds of each arm done in six and a half hours, seven hours each day, um was quite disappointing, opening in the sense that how do I really understand patience? How do I understand connection? How do I, how do I channel sort of energy at the same time? Because, really, when we think about the, the tattooing process and the needling and the, the, the sound itself, um is is, uh, it can be, I think, overwhelming for some possibly, but um, I think the fact that we were able to start in a good way, that we started with uh, our prayers, our song, our, our, our marking, with uh, the ochre, ochre, that it just was able to ground ourselves in such a good way that I don't want to say pain, because it isn't pain.
Speaker 2:It's a process. It's a sensation right, yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:And you, just you learn, you're comfortable. It was telling my story and my story coming to life, and so, therefore, it wasn't arduous, it wasn't a challenge. Yes, there was moments of going oh, that's, you know those spots, you know, but it wasn't laborious.
Speaker 1:In that sense, I think that we were able to, you know, have incredible conversations, whether it was during the process or during our breaks, working with the individuals that support you through all the the project as well, getting to meet them and understanding their stories. So it was very holistic in the sense that there was a lot of things that came to light that grounded us in a culturally good way, and that's what I think was very important, because, even as we relate to sort of meeting Wes and some of the experiences, there is that we used cultural practice to ground us when things were challenged. For myself, which you know, I look at society and I look at the world today and going how many things could be strengthened, fixed, if we actually lived life in a good way and we're connected to the land and connected to the way we were in relationship to the natural world.
Speaker 1:Um, it'd be a lot better, yeah so this is a snapshot, an example of how how actually doing that practice. Yeah, allowed us to sort of complete and move through.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, that's awesome. So, uh, the next is is how have the marks you know shown up in your life, you know? How have they? Have they changed anything? You know in terms of, yeah, just putting that out there in the most broadest sense, how have the marks shown up in your life and lived, you know, as part of your embodied experience?
Speaker 1:Well, I think one of the greatest things about the marks is that, through the design work that was presented and the importance of the bear that has played in my life and played in my community's life bear that has played in in my life and played in my community's life, uh, you know, from the beginning of, you know, my mom giving me a bear bear claw choker, it, there's a so much representation to it. And then to be able to be connected to my wife more deeply because you were able to provide the bear marking yeah, on on my wife as well, over her heart, which is is such a powerful, uh, you know, a physical and a spiritual sort of connection that we have and it just strengthens our, our relationship. So that's one of the largest pieces, that how it's impacted the markings of my life. But the other piece is with my role and my work.
Speaker 1:Um, I do a lot of speaking, I do a lot of of connecting, I do a lot of creating space for indigenous folks to step into leadership roles through different programs, and so when I'm doing our orientation overview of programs, doing our orientation overview of programs, it allows me to one understand and hold more of who I am as an Inka Leopold person, because I am connected and grounded through all the different images that you've shared with me, uh, but more importantly, it is always a continued symbol of we are still here, we are still practicing our way of knowing and being and doing. We are not going anywhere. And I think the biggest piece for me is that it creates conversation. It creates in, inquiry, inquiry, yeah, curiosity that I am a lot, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm allowed. It creates the space where I am teaching others the importance of our history and the importance of who we are and the significance as our way of knowing, being and doing impacts the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's so cool and I think it's a good segue and a good transition or bridge to moving the conversation forward in terms of like. So, what do you do as a job and a career? And, yeah, what does that look like? Because I think it's important, you know, for me to in this podcast, not only to highlight folks who are, you know, practitioners who are doing tattooing, people wearing tattoos, but also, I think, for me is like when I think about the work that you do, because the podcast is called Transformative Marks.
Speaker 2:The transformative marks that you put into the world are those plans that you write out right, those structures that you put in place for your job that actually help to transform the world. So those marks you know a lot of that is typing, but those are actually marks, whether that's a digital mark or it gets printed. Those are transformative marks that indigenous people are doing in the world, because the work that you do does transform and support, you know, indigenous business leaders, all of that type of stuff, and so it's kind of this is a nice transition as I'm moving into season two of recording episodes for the podcast is to bring people who are transforming the world as an indigenous person in another type of transformative mark so just give you an opportunity to share.
Speaker 2:Um, you know what you do and, yeah, what that looks like. Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative podcast where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that I don't always sort of think that I'm one to be boastful of what I do or, yeah, I'll leave it at that. I was trying to think of other words.
Speaker 1:So I have the honour of being the director of the Indigenous Leadership Program at the BAM Centre for Arts and Creativity. The Indigenous Leadership Program has been operating for 52 years at the Centre in a variety of capacities. But really, when we sort of think about the vision and the mission of the program itself is really, how are we transforming and reigniting, revitalizing indigenous leadership and our programs because they've been running for so long? We have a reach of engaging First Nations, métis and Inuit people from coast to coast to coast and we have a broad scope of programs. So there's 10 core programs that we look at to support their leadership.
Speaker 1:We look at sort of identity and culture. We look at strategic planning and visioning. We look at a negotiation skills. We look at inherent rights into governance. We look at truth and reconciliation through right relations and creating those spaces to bring individuals from across the country build on what we call either our right relations or our wise practices, because in those learning spaces they're not only learning from our indigenous and non indigenous faculty but they're learning from each other, because each community has different successes and different failures or different challenges.
Speaker 1:And if we're able to have that, whether we call it cross-fertilization, cross-integration of knowledge and wisdom. Our power just grows and wisdom our power just grows, yeah, and and so through creating those spaces, we're we're inspiring new leaders, we're inspiring changes in relationship with our federal and provincial municipal governance to make change, to make a better society, or or to bring a equitable opportunity for Indigenous populations, or even beyond that. And so I think, where a big piece that comes into my realm of thinking and the reason why I do this type of work is being from the Inka Nation and working in Treaty 7 territory or working with nations from across the country it always questions to look at where is the balance between sovereignty, self-determination, self-governance, inherent rights and or treaty rights? Or whether we look at, you know, is it our constitution? Where we look at, you know, is it Aboriginal rights or is it treaty rights, and how does that impact our ability to make change and to strengthen our communities?
Speaker 2:So when you think about that work that you're doing, is there a specific example you can think of that you felt was really empowering, Like, is there something that comes to mind in terms of those things that you have put on, that you have set up, that have, you know, manifested through that work? You know, do any, do anything? Does anything come to mind right away when I ask that question?
Speaker 1:Um, I, I think it's. It's really looking at how do we utilize our indigenous ways of knowing, being and doing um in such a good way and in, in, in, in such a a space that allows people to step into their power. And I think that is probably the biggest piece, because if we look at our education systems, if we look at the way we've been taught, it's always been from a Eurocentric lens and that hasn't always created the optimal learning opportunity. And so for us to be able to create that and to challenge each other through our right relations is amazing, because we have people that come to our program and they arrive on Sunday. They like to be close to the people that they know, but by the end of the week we have a group of you know whether it's 25 to 30 participants that they become so connected and they have such a network of supports that they go away so much more empowered than if they were to do a Western education program.
Speaker 1:So, that's what I think is the best piece?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure, yeah, no, I think, yeah, it's important to sometimes ask those questions and give people an opportunity to reflect. You know, that's actually one thing I've enjoyed about the podcast is sometimes people will ask me hey, what do you think about this or have you thought about that? And I'm like whoa, like I haven't had a chance to reflect on things sometimes. So it's always good to have that opportunity to reflect, you know, on some of the work that has happened. So when you so, when the programming happens, you know what are some examples of different types of programs that people can access through the work that you're doing and through the center.
Speaker 1:That's a big question, I think. Once again, we have 10 specific different programs that build on a wise practice model. We create space and opportunity for people to. If they go through seven of those programs, which is one program for each of our wise practice model, they're able to walk away with a certificate of excellence in indigenous governance, management and leadership.
Speaker 1:Speaker 1 Wow, speaker 2 and one of the big things that I'm I'm that myself and my, my sort of my if I want to call them my leadership or my executive director, um, are looking at how do we get that program to be recognized as a postgraduate level certificate, not just a BAMF center certificate, but a postgraduate level certificate, because we have so many individuals within our communities, whether it's working in organizations or chief and council, that may have only come into these programs with a high school education or even less than a high school education, the status quo within communities across the country that aren't being recognized and therefore are being potentially manipulated by external proponents or being manipulated by the federal legislation or federal government or provincial or municipal, whatever it may be. But for them to come through and have a certificate at a postgraduate level is just going to elevate that recognition and once again I I would hope that it evens out sort of a power imbalance. Yeah, that indigenous communities have been the lesser than for so long.
Speaker 2:yeah, that it just elevates it yeah, big time, yeah, and I think it really does bring forward a really important point in terms of you know, some of the conversations I want to have is with people in community who are doing that badass work, that have been doing it for so long, you know, maybe working with the youth, but they don't get that recognition.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, because there's so many people doing so many amazing things in our communities and they have been doing it forever and people just don't know or they don't have an opportunity to share the insights that they have, because the value there is just exponential in terms of the things that they have done and they just don't get recognized, recognized.
Speaker 2:And so, for me, part of that is also beginning to look for some of those people in our communities, to lift them up and to give them a chance to be highlighted, because some of the stuff that they're doing is amazing in terms of the youth camps, in terms of, uh, you know, keeping, uh, our different practices, in terms of, like, high tanning, in terms of dressmaking, basketry, like all of that stuff is just so powerful, but people don't get a chance to be recognized and held up for it. So I think that that brings forward you know what you just shared brings forward some of that. It affirms, I guess, some of the ideas that I've had in terms of the direction that I'd like to take some of the future interviews that I go into. Yeah, you know that community leadership that, like you said, maybe doesn't have that certificate of you know the Western educational system but, yeah, has been doing such amazing stuff in community that is does transform the world there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And if I you're making me think about one other piece that as much as I say we have these programs, um, but really a lot of the essence of the program is our program model, in the sense that as much as we have, uh, faculty that deliver the program, we also make sure that we make space for ensuring that we have our elders, that we practice each of these programs.
Speaker 1:We start each day off in a good way with smudge and prayers. We create space to do cultural activities, whether it is, you know you said, hide tanning or hide scraping. You know some of our programs we do parfletch making, uh, some of it is we take our participants out into the, the local community, to understand the relationships of inter-community relationships and protocol process, um, so it's not only just enriched in knowledge, but it's actually enriched through a cultural practice. It could be beading as well, or it could be working with some of our faculty from the arts department and using their knowledge and clay to create a visual image of of what their, their counselor or community responsibility could look like. So it's, it's pretty cool. It's not just like any sort of academic course that we go through. So thank you for that, because I, I I always just go to okay, here's our, our transformative, our vision and our mission, but really it's the practice and and the relationship that our faculty have with the participants as well so, yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Um, one thing I think about, uh, especially in connection to you and your work there is, you know, because I know so many artists and musicians and people who move through the arts world. You know, inevitably people will send me a text. Oh, I seen Simon.
Speaker 1:I met.
Speaker 2:Simon, I seen your work and so it's pretty cool to see how many of those different connections, how many of those different connections. And also it also helps me to uh, you know, because one of my visions or my goals for not only in the comic block work but the creation of the visual dictionary, is that people will start to recognize our design, symbols, motifs, patterns, in the same way that northwest coast or woodland stuff is is recognized, right, yeah, and so it's so cool that you're there and a lot of people get to see it and then they understand that it's in Tlacotan, right. So it's that opportunity of conversation that you were talking about. It's really exciting to see that actually happening, because people are like oh, wow, you know that's Dion's.
Speaker 2:And then you get to, or people are like, hey, what is that? And then you get to tell the story of like hey, this is interior Salish intercutting. You know, these are our patterns. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to see that actually happening in the. You know the work that you do and the visibility that you do have.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm grateful for that, and I've actually changed a lot of on how I present myself, like I I be, you know, I look back and being, you know, adopted out, which is, you know, it's a story in itself and and relearning connection to home and community, but, at the same time, understanding and working in western ways and I sort of think that, okay, well, you're a postgraduate or not postgraduate, but you're in post-secondary, you know, you sort of think of your, your classic professor, in the sense that you know, you sort of think of your, your classic professor, in the sense that you know it's dress pants, dress shirts and all this, this sort of stuff. The greatest thing for, for me is that, um, every dress shirt I buy, now I alter to make sure that it's short sleeves, yeah.
Speaker 1:So there is never sort of really the opportunity to cover up, yeah, the significance of of the representation of our images, our language, in a visual image, and so, therefore, it always creates that space for questions and, at the same time, it is always a space that you can't hide, or they can't try and hide me, because that is the absolute point and I think that's where you you know, if we loop back to the very sort of beginning of this conversation is you're being able to sort of understand my roles and and what I do and the teaching that I do, and to be able to have that such as a visual image that everybody sees every time I engage, because I don't hide it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's so cool, um, and I, and I remember you sharing that you know, a lot of times when you wear your dress shirts, you know your bear yeah, it's there and it's out and it, you know it helps to empower you when you go to do that speaking.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it is cool to see how, you know, those ancestral intentions for marking are, you know, transferring into the contemporary yeah, yeah, it is pretty cool to see and how it's impacting the world, you know.
Speaker 2:And so for me, that is not to, you know, hold me or my work up, but to encourage people who are out there who are doing the work, do that work for your own community, right, you know, because that's how each of our nations becomes, you know, uses our visual sovereignty, because that's really what it is. It's a sovereignty of us to use our marks, to use our design, symbols and motifs in the way that we see fit but makes us visible visually. You know, because I think, when I think about the landscape, you know, our ancestors would have, you know, instead of having cabinets like we have here, there would have been baskets, and those baskets would have had the patterns that people are wearing now, and so it was constantly visible to us wherever we were, that visual language, and so it's really about a visual repatriation. So, regardless of whether it's, you know, interior, salish, uh, indigenous or non-Indigenous person wearing those patterns, you know you can look and be like oh yeah, I know where that's from, and then that makes us visible as community and community members.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which sort of makes me think about some of the questions I've received from folks. Even most recently, I was meeting with one of the team members from the center and I was sharing the story of all the imagery and the artwork and the project. We had a greater number of people understanding what our visual images represent. Yeah, Would. Then, when they look at my artwork, would they be able to interpret the story, Mm?
Speaker 1:And so I was like hmm, I'm not sure because it's my story so I'm not sure how they would read it. Yeah, but maybe it's more so that they recognize of where I'm from. Yeah, maybe it's more so that they recognize of where I'm from and the people I represent and the people that I'm a part of will have that different impact on whether how we, as Inka Kaban people, make change in the world, make change within the interior of British Columbia or within British Columbia itself, on how we approach sovereignty as communities and as a nation. And so that is something that could happen and I know that you know it's been a lot of work for this process to happen and with the dictionary and the visual dictionary and all those sort of things, and maybe that will come to fruition. I'm not sure, but just being able to have that conversation makes me think at the same time.
Speaker 2:Well, I think part of it is. Yeah, I think definitely there will be a time where people could interpret what the symbol is, but not necessarily the story Right, so they could go, oh well, these are mouth patterns or these are steps, or these are mountains or these are arrowheads, but maybe not how you embody them and how that tells your story, which is also an interesting conversation about when I think about interpretation. When the anthropologists came, they came and asked they're like, oh, what's this pattern? And somebody would say, oh, that's an arrowhead. And they'd ask somebody else're like, oh, what's this pattern? And somebody would say, oh, that's an arrowhead. And they'd ask somebody else, so, what's this pattern? They'd say, oh, that's a butterfly. Somebody would go, oh, what's this pattern? Somebody would go, oh well, that's a basket or a mountain, yeah, and then they would go like these indians are so dumb because they don't, you know, because they think it has to be one thing, yeah, yeah, and I always say that it's really is understanding that subjectivity of our like you say, our ways of knowing and being is that it is subjective when that person looks at it. Maybe they're looking at the patterns that are around it, which gives them a clue that, oh well, that's a sun, so that would probably be a butterfly. Or it's connected to a land. You know an earth line, so that's a. That's a sun, so that would probably be a butterfly. Or it's connected to a land. You know an earth line, so it's a mountain, right, or sometimes it could be. That's just that person's relationship to that symbol or design, so it doesn't have to be one thing and so it's really. I think that is the beauty of it and when I think about it in terms of marking, it also allows for the growth and the change and transformation of the meaning for the wearer.
Speaker 2:Yes, sometimes maybe we need it for the power, for when we're going up to speak and we know that we have the power to speak and we can use our voice, and that's one of our gifts, because, of course, whenever we go public speaking, it doesn't matter how often we've done it. Sometimes you need that encouragement and then other other times maybe it's you look down and you realize that you have a community. You know, because each one of those mouths is the representation of a community member, a family member, and you realize and you remember oh, this is my family and I have these people. I don't. I'm not actually alone, because each of us as human beings go through those times where we feel alone and we feel lonely. But when we see those represented, we go ah, I remember those people. I remember my cousins, I remember my aunties, I remember my uncles and all of those people who are there to support me.
Speaker 2:Or sometimes you remember, oh, those people that you work with, all of those people who are there to support me. Or sometimes you remember, oh, those people that you work with all of that. And so it's cool to know, in terms of interpretation, is that we have that freedom to allow that story to develop, that we've embodied as we need it. Yeah, yeah. So it's pretty cool to think about some of that as well, and, yeah, it just brings up some cool ideas and things to discuss as we start to kind of wind down from this conversation. Has anything come up in terms of that you feel that you'd like to share about the project, about your work, anything else in general that you'd like to share, and or any questions that you may have for me, anything that you've wanted to explore? Once again, it's a big, open-ended question.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that because it gives us lots of freedom. I think there was moments that I had personal learnings.
Speaker 1:One was, I guess it was like oh, come on, hurry up, and you know let's get this going, and then we had COVID come in, and then you know you're traveling across the country and it's it's more of I want this done, I want this done, but I think because it's taken three or four years to to finally get to a completed piece for myself or completed to date, yeah, I should say, because there's always room for, yeah, for other pieces, um, uh, so understanding that, you know, is there, there's patience, yeah, there there is that opportunity to sit and reflect upon one, the experience, but two, the meanings behind it, and the other piece is really the amount of times I get asked what does it mean?
Speaker 1:And so it creates more space for me to share my story, to relate to people that want to know how I get into, sort of the leadership roles that I've had, or to understand why I do what I do, or to understand why I do what I do, and so I think that is an incredible gift because it gives more permission. It also allows questions and conversations to happen, and that was one of the bigger intentions of why I wanted to work with you and get the work that we've done, because we are here, yeah, and we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We are. As we progress in society, we look at how much more of the Eurocentric Western ways are looking and questioning and understanding. Well, how did the First Nations, métis and Inuit people do it and so creating that space and awareness? I don't have the answers.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, I don't.
Speaker 1:But I can help create moments that are educational, that could be inspiring, that could be questionable to going well, how do I find the answers? Yeah, so I think that's probably one of the greatest gifts that has been given to me through this process. I think the other piece that, as I mentioned earlier, with the bear marking on myself and on my wife, it's strengthened who we are as a couple together and our lives being interconnected. So that was a very grounding and strengthening piece that is very important in my world, and so those are sort of, I guess, the greater highlights. But when you ask the question, is there any questions for you? It may be more selfish on my side, because I wanted to find ways on how do I connect to myself as an Ingligabha person, and you created that avenue. Yeah, and you created that avenue. Yeah, we had some incredible conversations through this process that focused on spirituality, focused on governance, focused on post-secondary education, and those were incredible pieces that we experienced together through the process. I know that we're going to have conversations around what could be next for some of the activities we're doing, and I look forward to having those.
Speaker 1:I guess one of my questions is is as you come to a close of this project. Is there a question of going? How does your role change? You have created and inspired all the people that have participated in the program. There may be little bits of ongoing work that needs to be done, but it's an enormous feat that you've done, because the amount of not only translation, physical labor, mental labor, spiritual labor, all those things, yeah, does it continue or do you see yourself sort of moving more into that mentor, teacher, or are you going to still be like this, full-on practitioner of providing this experience for others?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's uh continuing, uh, all of those things. So, actually, from this, uh, actually, before I answer that question, I just something came up as you were sharing about the connection of the bear piece with, uh, the bear paw with your, uh, your wife. Is that, you know, uh, that was one of the intentions of our ancestral practices as well is to actually share that commitment in a partnership relationship, in a marriage relationship, of having a demonstration of that connection and that commitment to each other. So I just wanted to share that with you, that that actually was one of the reasons that we ancestrally got marked. Oh, that's very cool.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I can't wait to share that with my wife.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just wanted to highlight that is because it's also bringing forward in terms of that contemporary practice that reflects our ancestral practice and how we bring it into the contemporary world that we have today. So it was cool that you mentioned that and I never thought about that, but, as you said it, I'm like, oh, like that, obviously that's one of the reasons we did it, yeah, ancestrally. But to answer your question in terms of you know what are some of the next things is, megan is one of the participants of Intracapmuc Black Work. We did a back piece that represents the Intracapmuc side of her family, but also the Mi'kmaq side, and so there's some double curve motifs in her back piece, right, um. So she has actually asked me to mentor, uh, her on becoming a skin marker, a tattooer, okay, and so we're working on developing a project, uh, you know, hopefully funded through canada council or someone else, to not only train her, but also another migma person that we're going to look at bringing a another inter-Katmik person in so that we have more practitioners, because my goal is for us as a nation is to have the most practitioners of every nation, right? Just because for me it makes sense that, you know, I started work here, so a lot of my responsibility is now shifting to us as a community, because I have done so much out in the world in terms of Earthline and all of that stuff, and so that's one piece in terms of documentation and sharing it, but not only sharing it to highlight my work, but sharing it to as an example of footsteps that people could follow to do in their own communities.
Speaker 2:Okay, nice, right. And so it's like yes, this is what I've done. Yes, you know, I want people to see it, but here are the footprints that I have left so that people can go oh, this is how I start this, right, because that's what people always come up to me and they go oh well, you know, we only have like a paragraph or a sentence that says that we tattooed. So you know, and then you see that you know that they just their body drops like all we have. Is this right that you know that they just their body drops Like all we have? Is this right? It's like well, here are the steps that you can take. You know, go to those museum collections, look at your visual language. These are the clues for what you can do to start to imagine what your contemporary practice looks like, because we always get stuck in the past. Let's bring it to the present right and imagine it for the future. You know, what do those who are coming need for the future? So that's the next step is taking opportunities to disseminate that knowledge in a way that lifts everyone up so that they can take those as lessons.
Speaker 2:And then the next piece is continuing this work, and I think the project has given me a lot of time to reflect on some of those healing pieces that have gone into the work and the experiences, because in the beginning I thought about our ancestral marking as tattoo medicine, but that was really connected to that identity piece and of course, it is very foundational to the work that I do with indigenous people.
Speaker 2:But there's all these other type of healing that happens and transformation that happens.
Speaker 2:So it's really starting to think about how do I conceptualize that and then how do I begin to share it so people can start to think about it in their own practices again, right, um, and then it's also the next thing I'm also looking at is because I just finished the exhibition, so it's a continuation of that which says let's start to publish books that position indigenous people and practitioners as the experts in their practice, because so many of the publications that are written about us are written by non yes, non-indigenous scholars, who then become the experts on our practice, and it's like that doesn't really jive with me, um, and so it's like how do I begin to start to lift up our community of practitioners, to write in the way that they need to write, so that we can now quote them?
Speaker 2:If I want to talk about tongan or mari tattooing, yeah, or I want to talk about kree or cherokee tattooing, I can quote the practitioner, the person who's done the work, who wears their marks as the leader and the knowledge keeper of that Wow, who are coming? Yeah, that's kind of the next step. So, yes, continuing to practice, uh, but doing that in a really intentional way and really taking on those projects that are, you know, uh, in line with the way that I would like to go. So, yes, continuing as a practitioner, but then taking all these pieces and distribute them out, right. So, once again, just sharing knowledge, yeah, yeah big time.
Speaker 1:That makes me think about one of the sorry I I know you said we're tying up to a certain degree, but no but at the same time it's it's like I I'm relating it to sort of the post-secondary world is that what's mine is mine, like we don't share our information from institution to institution all the time, and so for you to model that in a different way of going right you're talking about how you're mentoring with megan and how you're you're creating a new avenue and creating footsteps for other people's, or or a pathway that people can follow is one inspirational and two is grateful.
Speaker 1:So thank you for those pieces, because I think that you know we are, we are here and we're important. We're an important peoples in, in, in, not just in Kikaban peoples, but in the sense of indigenous peoples on on how we will shape this world and how we will will will change the future. Yeah, so you know, thank you in advance for for those sorts of pieces, I'm very you know you in advance for, for those sort of pieces, um, I'm very, you know, inspired by that and uh, so I I think that's you know. Once again, this is an example of those conversations we've had over this period of time.
Speaker 2:So it's like oh, what there's this.
Speaker 1:So, um you know, I, I, I, yeah it's, it's just been a complete, you know, honor one to be, uh, not only experience it, but to to act as a canvas in that sense of yeah um, to be able to share that story, to be able to share that wisdom, yeah, um. But then to think about how you're going to translate it from uh, having the practitioners being recognized as those knowledge keepers yeah, versus non-Indigenous and other people saying, oh no, they did it this way. That is amazing. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say you know, I totally take that to heart and I acknowledge that acknowledgement. But I would also put it forward that you know a lot of that comes from my mentors, right, in terms of Dr Jeanette Armstrong and Margot Tamez. Dr Margot Tamez and Dr Greg Younging you know all of these amazing indigenous scholars who, some of them, still work in the institution. Some of them are no longer with us anymore, but all of these people and I would always say also those mentors that I've actually read their books, I've read their theses and their ideas mentored me, even though I maybe don't have a personal relationship with them.
Speaker 2:But those ideas of those indigenous academics and scholars who have put these ideas out into the world to help to nurture me, yeah, so it's really actually mirroring those things that they did for me that I found impactful. It's like okay, so now it's. They've passed that responsibility on to me, right, because those ideas now become my ideas and now I have to reciprocate, even though maybe they don't know that that that reciprocation is to the coming generations. Yeah, because they gave it knowing that it would inspire somebody and that inspiration was me, so now I'm doing it, so those who come after will be inspired in a similar way. That's how we continue that gifting of that knowledge, yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool to be able to have that opportunity to lift them up and uh, you know, so I'm just mirroring those things that they have done for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting yeah, thank you for that, because it is interesting in the sense that it makes me think going. We have always been labeled as oh, we're just oral traditionalists. All our, all our history is oral. Yeah, but what you've just articulated through one, the the visual, but two, it's that relational piece, and so we're coming out of the box that we've been labeled in for so long, because someone has inspired you to explore it even more and you're going to do the same to others. So, wow, that's awesome the same to others.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, wow, that's awesome, yeah, yeah, and I would say that is the that is. The goal of this podcast is just to show how awesome we are as indigenous people and to celebrate us. Yes, sometimes we explore some challenging topics, but for me, the main focus is to bring forward those positive pieces and those positive bits that everybody is contributing. Right, because it's not just my contribution or your contribution, but it's the contribution of all of those people that are sitting around the virtual podcast table, that are giving their little gems to the collective knowledge basket that people can now pick from and find inspiration to go into the world. And that's how we, as Indigenous people, did. It was sitting in that circle, right, and so it's really. That is the offering that each of us is giving, and just highlighting it.
Speaker 1:So I'm stoked stoked on it, right? Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So I just thank you for taking the time to visit with me on the Transformative Marks podcast and I'm excited for us to move into the other festivities of this week of the Intacama Blackwork Roundup. So thanks for taking the time to visit with me.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. As I said earlier, it's a complete honor to be able to spend time with you and to have these type of conversations. So thank you for everything. Awesome, I'm very grateful, awesome.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where we'll be doing something a bit different. I'm going to be giving you 10 tips on how to work in the revival of your ancestral tattooing practices, as demonstrated by the conversations I've had in this year's episodes of the Transformer Marks podcast. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.