Transformative Marks Podcast

10 Tips: Indigenous Tattoo Revival and Cultural Reawakening with Dion Kaszas and Friends

• Dion Kaszas, Terje Koloamatangi, Gordon Sparks, Nahaan, Tania Williard, Que Bidois, Keith Calahoo, Jacqueline Merritt, Julie Paama-Pengelly • Episode 46

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#046 Unlock the secrets of ancestral visual languages and discover how these timeless practices can enrich your contemporary life. In this episode of Transformative Marks, I, Dion Kaszas, along with esteemed ancestral skin markers, cultural tattoo practitioners, Moko practitioners and Indigenous artists, guide you through the intricate journey of reviving ancestral tattooing traditions. Our conversation touches on the patience and persistence required to breathe life back into these ancient practices, drawing on personal stories and historical insights. We offer practical guidance, presenting ten invaluable tips inspired by past guests to empower you in your own tattoo revival efforts.

Engage with the tapestry of Maori and Tongan artistry as we explore how cultural narratives are being reclaimed and revived. Julie shares her inspiring survey of Maori visual culture and its role in igniting a cultural renaissance. Meanwhile, Terje takes us on a journey through Tongan tattoo design reconstruction, using family treasures and historical artifacts as a guide. Our discussions emphasize the importance of viewing ancestral art forms as holistic visual landscapes, challenging fragmented interpretations imposed by outsiders. Gordon Sparks, a Mi'kmaq skin marker, further deepens our understanding by illustrating how nature and surroundings influence visual language.

Connection is at the heart of cultural revitalization, and ancestral tattooing practices are no exception. Hear Jacqueline Merritt’s insights on the power of community engagement in uncovering forgotten histories within her Nation. The Maori revival exemplifies how informal teaching settings can safeguard cultural knowledge, illuminating the wisdom hidden in everyday anecdotes. As we progress these Indigenous practices, Tania Willard and Keith Callihoo remind us of the vital link between past and present, ensuring that our cultural expressions remain both meaningful and authentic. Tune in for an exploration that honors tradition while embracing innovation.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

You can find Terje at:
Instagram @terje_k
YouTube: @terjekoloamatangi2946

You can find Tania at:
Instagram @willardart

You can find Jacqueline at:
Instagram @qwendetlig

You can find Que at:
Instagram @quebidois

Check out Keith's work at:
Instagram @ohnatattoo 

You can find Gord at:
Instagram @gordonsparkstattoos

You can find Nahaan at:
Instagram @chilkat_tattoo

You can find Julie at:
Instagram  @julesartistmoko

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts

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Speaker 1:

One of my relatives were stating like your grandmother had tattoos, your great-grandmother had tattoos, which is etu in our language. And I was just like what? I was like how come nobody told me that it was so like profound? And I was just like it even like rooted me deeper and I was like, oh, like this is something. My great-grandmother, so my etu mom, like held this teaching. My great grandmother, so Maya too, mom, like held this teaching. Yeah. But then I saw that the heartbreak is because she had about 15 children and so the only the oldest two were able to be shared those markings, because of the rest of them went to residential school.

Speaker 3:

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work. Welcome to episode 46 of the Transformative Marks podcast. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Métis, an intricate cultural tattoo practitioner, ancestral skin marker, professional tattoo artist and the host of the Transformative Marks podcast. Welcome to episode 46.

Speaker 3:

I can't believe that we've made it this far 46 episodes and this is my second solo episode. So we're going to be doing something a little bit different this week. You'll be joining me in my studio and I'm going to give you 10 tips to assist in the revival of your ancestral tattooing practice. To assist in the revival of your ancestral tattooing practice. So you'll be looking over my shoulder today in my editing bay, and we will be watching and listening to some of my past guests from the last 45 episodes of the Transformative Marks podcast, and I will be using their words as the launching off point for a conversation around 10 tips to assist in your ancestral tattoo revival. Each of them will share from their hearts as recorded in their episode, and then we will be going into a off-the-cuff response to their comments, and so this will give an opportunity to allow my guests to.

Speaker 3:

So this will allow me, so this will allow each of the guests to share their voice, and I'm just going to simply give a response and a reflection on their comments, because I think each of these guests has had a huge impact in their own ancestral communities, and so I'd like to allow them to share their voices and also gather us around, each of us, around this question of the ancestral revival of our tattooing practices.

Speaker 3:

You know had so many quotes, so many opportunities to with you, but we're just going to go with these and then I imagine at a later time we'll do another 10 tips as these conversations continue throughout the Transformative Marks podcast. And so up first is Q Bidwa from Aotearoa, a Maori practitioner, and they'll be sharing some important words that will help us to gently land into this conversation around the revival of our ancestral tattooing practices. So this is not one of the tips, but it is kind of one of the most important things that has to be remembered as we enter into this conversation of the revival of our ancestral tattooing practices. And here is Q.

Speaker 4:

The road to revival is a long road and don't think it's going to happen overnight, because we're in a generation, at the moment, where everything's instant and revival is definitely not instant. Instant and revival is definitely not instant. Just because you think you can bring it up on a, on a phone or ipad or something like that, you think that's the answer. The answer is not on the internet, sorry, yeah, and the answer is out there with your old people. The answer is out there within your own environment, and it's there. You've just got to read between those lines in order to find them and they will come. They will come, they will come and they've been left there for a reason by our ancestors. Whether it just be there's a couple of lines on that page, the rest will be there. They're there waiting to be found and those gems are there for everyone.

Speaker 3:

You've just got to search for them.

Speaker 3:

I had this conversation with Q in episode 14 of the Transformative Marks, in episode 14 of the Transformative Marks, and this is a kind of an encapsulation of what we're going to talk about throughout this video, throughout episode 46, with 10 tips and what Q is saying.

Speaker 3:

I believe the important part that I'd like to emphasize of what Q is sharing in this clip is that we have to be patient, because this is a long road and a long journey in the work of reviving our ancestral tattooing practices, because these practices in many parts of Turtle Island, north America and other parts of the world, these practices have been sleeping for a very long time, and so I've heard it said that it's like waking up a sleeping elder who sometimes doesn't want to be roused to the day, and so you know that's what we're trying to do here is just gently waking up this practice in each of our communities to allow for this vibrant practice to go out and and so be patient with it, allow it to grow.

Speaker 3:

And you know, as you listen to each of these individuals sharing and testimony, I just ask that you try to read between the lines, because it's important for you to interpret these things for yourself, for your own practice, for your own work, and allow each of the gems that they're laying out for you, pick up the ones that are valuable to you, put them in your ancestral toolkit and come back later, because you never know, another gem might come out. Another pearl that you need for your journey may be revealed each time that you listen to this episode and each of the episodes that these individuals are uh featured in, and so we're going to move on to uh, actually the first tip uh for the revival of our ancestral tattooing practices, and again, this this is QBidwa from Aotearoa, a Maori practitioner, sharing from episode 14.

Speaker 4:

In the earlier stages, in order for us to move forward, we had to get non-Maori draw the patterns for them, get them to stencil it and then put them on people. So it was actually non-Maori in the earlier days. Yeah, who actually putting on the facial moko and the in the body? Yeah, the body designs. But we were doing the designs for them, yeah, and we were hang on here fuck, this isn't right. Yeah, why don't we just do this?

Speaker 3:

ourselves, yeah. So I think this is important to highlight. A lot of times we, as practitioners like to highlight that, you know, we are the ones that are the, you know, most important in this work, and I would argue that the reality is is it's those people who are wearing the marks that are the most important, and so it's actually those people who are out in the world who are reviving our practices. Those are the ones who are wearing the marks, because in the beginning of so many ancestral revivals, it was actually just people wearing the marks, not practitioners, who started the revival movements.

Speaker 3:

I can think of the Inuit, aletheia Arnuk-Borrell and her powerful documentary about the journey of receiving these marks, even though they weren't tattooed and with ancestral tools and technology, it wasn't a new person. But the wearing of those marks is what it's actually about. It's not about who does the tattooing, it's about who's wearing those marks. And so you know I just wanted to highlight this that it's actually the people out in the world wearing the marks who are doing the revival work, not necessarily us as practitioners. And so that also leaves room for people who were marked by someone who is not from their community or an Indigenous person in any way, shape or form, they are still part of the revival of their ancestors' tattooing practices practices, and so this is just an important piece to remember.

Speaker 3:

My next guest is terry kolomatangi, who's a sami and tongan ancestral skin marker cultural tattoo practitioner who lives in auckland, aotearoa, new zealand, and this episode, this clip, is from episode 10 and uh, we'll be continuing on in this conversation around. It is the people wearing the marks that are actually those who are the revivalists as it was a journey, you know.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, took took a while to find my way as a practitioner, um, but in those early days it was. It was really about kind of spending time with practitioners and you know, a lot of learning goes on through observation, you know, and I had the privilege of sometimes being invited to sit on the mat next to Paolo so I could see the work happening right in front of me.

Speaker 6:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

And then, eventually, I took up the challenge.

Speaker 3:

Wow.

Speaker 5:

And you know he was like, okay, we're going to do this, and it was the first move towards the Tongan Tattoo revival. Were the markings that Paolo put on me? Yeah, that was 99.

Speaker 3:

As Terry shares in this clip from episode 14 uh, that it was actually the receiving of his own personal marks that started the work of the revival of tonguing tattooing for him and his family and those who are from his uh village.

Speaker 3:

And so it was not necessarily the tattooing of those marks, the practitioner although that is important in this case, especially because of who paulo uh suluape was, um to the indigenous tattoo community but it was actually, in the instance of tongan tattooing and the revival of tongan marks for terry and his community, it was actually him receiving the marks.

Speaker 3:

That was the most important part of the journey in the revival of Tongan tattooing, and so I would make that argument across the Indigenous world that the most important thing about this work is that our ancestors, our people, our community wear their marks and that we should hold them up in wearing those marks because they've been asleep for so long and not shame them in any way, shape or form for the way that they received them.

Speaker 3:

And, yeah, I would say that that is the most important part. You know, tip one is start wearing the marks, regardless of who is offering them and who is doing that work for you, of course, if you have a practitioner from your community that you jive with and that you feel safe to get tattooed by, then, of course, it's important to do that through them. However, the most important part is actually the receiving of the mark. So we're going to move on to tip number two, which is finding your visual language, and the first person we're going to listen to to share some knowledge around finding your ancestral visual language is Julie Pama-Pengali, a Maori practitioner from Aotearoa, is Julie Pama Pangali, maori practitioner from Aotearoa, and she can be found in episode number two if you'd like to hear more about the things that she's sharing.

Speaker 6:

I think that's where my education in Maori visual arts was very much about looking for the abstract concepts and the abstract language first. It was really full grounding on surveying everything and understanding our language, how that sits with our language, which is a metaphor. So if you say the language is a metaphor, the visual language is a metaphor.

Speaker 3:

So in this clip, the thing that really resonates with me what Julie was saying is that in the beginning she actually did a huge survey of all of Maori visual material culture and in that survey it taught her the visual language of her ancestors. And so I would argue that this is the beginning of that revival work to survey the plethora of visual and ancestral objects that you can find anywhere, from pictographs, petroglyphs, paintings, painted clothing, beadwork, embroidery, any of the visual language that you can find, basketry, pottery. All of those things contain your ancestral visual language, and this is really what Julie is saying is that by surveying all of that, you are going to learn the vocabulary of your ancestors' visual language, and that is the foundation and the key to the revival of your ancestors.

Speaker 3:

Tattooing because so often anthropologists, academics, try to separate and put our ancestors visual language into boxes, because it allows them to be experts in indigenous tattooing, allows them to be experts in pottery, it allows them to be experts in one little corner of our culture. But we have to take the uh, our rights back and start to look at it and survey it as a landscape, a visual landscape that goes all the way from pictographs painted on rocks to uh, embroidery to embroidery, put onto clothing and then imbrication into our basketry, taking and serving all of that as the foundation of our revival movement. And so we're going to go in back to Terry from episode 14, and he's going to share a little bit about this topic of ancestral visual language and some of the ways and places that he has personally found inspiration for the revival of Tongan tattooing.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so there are objects and material that exist that are treasures within my own family. There are stories that we hear within the family and other stories that have been captured and recorded by, you know, missionaries or adventurers who have kind of made their way to the islands, you know, who have recorded their experiences there, that mention tattooing, that become. And there's not many of those stories, but there's a few, and they just mention. They don't really go into detail about what it is, but they might mention a body part or they might mention a form that has a particular look to it, so that becomes an opportunity to explore. What would that look like? How would that work? How do I find my way in these ideas? And then we have other koroa, like our war clubs. There's a beautiful kind of series of patterns that exist within the lashing of the houses. So back in the day when houses were constructed, they would be bound together with kaffa, which is another made from coconuts in it. Okay, that's in it.

Speaker 4:

Okay.

Speaker 5:

And it's kind of bound. So it sort of serves a function, a practical function in terms of holding the house together.

Speaker 7:

Yeah.

Speaker 5:

But within that, patterns are woven into it. So you get these incredible kind of motifs that start to appear through the various kind of weaving techniques used in the kafa yeah, weaving techniques used in the kafa, and that art form is called lalava, and so, again, what I find interesting about lalava is this idea of wrapping things.

Speaker 5:

And again, I've made reference to lalava in some of the work I've done, where, if I'm doing a forearm, for example, we kind of imagine that this thing is wrapping and binding around the arm and that becomes the kind of design structure that we work within or around or with and then we find pattern within that. You know, even though Tongan tattooing there's very little information about Tongan tattooing historically. I think there's more that will come out across time. As we continue to dig and turn over stones, we'll keep finding more information. But for me there are clues and other things, other material culture that's existed across time, that's survived, you know, colonization.

Speaker 7:

Yeah, over time.

Speaker 5:

And so those all become the clues that we can kind of, you know like, say, for example, for me, the war clubs. I look at them, they're an object in the round and the way pattern is used on them is moving around, this wooden object, this war club. And so straight away for me there's a total sense in how that might move around the leg, for example. So it's all there, it's just starting to kind of unravel it and deconstruct it and then reconstruct it as tattoo, yeah, and then deconstructed and then reconstructed as tattoo.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so in this clip there's a few little threads that I'd like to pull on as we think about this question of where do you find the inspiration and where do you find your visual language. The first place that Terry talks about is all of the ways and places that Tongan tattooing was talked about. So whether that was in explorers journals so-called explorers whether that was in missionaries journals, whether that was anthropologists, you know these are all the written records that we can look to to find inspiration and information about our ancestors tattooing practices. Some of us have more. I'm thankful to be part of the Interkatmuk community because we have a beautiful text by the anthropologist James Tate. So that's the first place is to look for those things that have been written about you as a community and see what you can find in there, not only about your tattooing practices, about your whole visual language. And then you look to the ancestral objects. So Terry talks about not only war clubs in this case, but also the lashing that goes around the house posts in their communal houses and their houses. And so here is a place where maybe you wouldn't think that this is an opportunity to find some inspiration for your visual language, but you can see in the lashing some of the designs that are coming to life as those pieces of twine are going across each other. I know it's not twine, but I don't know the exact word.

Speaker 3:

So the last thing that I think about from this quote is the way that our ancestors decided to embody the marks on a three-dimensional form. And so when I think about that, I think about when I go to the museum and I look at the baskets, and when I look at the baskets I can see how they decided to move that design around corners, over tops and to create a sense of depth, and how our ancestors thought about how these designs move across the three-dimensional form, ancestral objects. It's not only the design, the symbol, the motif, but it's also how are those designs, symbols and motifs treated in the movement, uh, of those designs across that three-dimensional form? And so we're going to go to the last quote in uh this section, and we're going to be going to gordon sparks, who is a migmakmaq ancestral skin marker, cultural tattoo practitioner and professional tattoo artist, as well as a Mi'kmaq wooden mask carver.

Speaker 3:

You can find Gord's full episode in episode six. So way back in the beginning of this past year. Gord's episode is episode number six. So we're going to hear what Gord's episode is episode number six. So we're going to hear what Gord has to say about this topic of the visual language.

Speaker 7:

So if I was going back to my ancestors, before the new people arrived, the visual language we would have had for Mi'kmaq would have been our wigwams, our tools of survival, the things we carry things in and our canoes right, and the ones that fly in the sky, the ones that swim in the water, the four-legged, the two-legged and everything that grows from the land. That'll be our visual language. Yep, and that's it. So, if I'm looking at artifacts that are four or 500 years old, well then those designs, and as people that create things, I'm going to be influenced by the surroundings that I'm doing it, and then you want to embroider that into the clothing, yeah, so then, when I'm doing it, I'm also going to want it to be a teaching tool, as I'm doing now with a visual language, the significance of it, so that I'll look at. Okay, so now my studies, right now, my research that I'm doing now is that's why I'm back home. The language of the land starts off by being a good hunter. You have to be a hunter to provide food for your family, a gatherer, so as you do that work, you're outdoors every day. So now I get to see outdoors from the summer's perspective, the fall's perspective, the winter's perspective, yeah, and the spring's perspective, yeah. So I'm going, oh, okay. So now, if I watch this tree and with this tree, what bird lives in that tree? If it's hardwood, softwood, whatever it may be, okay, so what bird lives in that? And then, what four-legged lives there? Yeah, and what plants live underneath this tree? Yeah, and is it near water or is it near gravel? What's it near? Yeah, so then you observe that through the four seasons, what stays and what dies, what families. So if I'm looking at a motif, at a design, if it's abundance of designing, I say that's summer. If it's lacking design and it's very minimalistic, it's winter. If it's spring and it has a lot of round things in it, oh, that's growth, right, springtime. If it's the fall, well, that's growth, right, it's springtime. If it's the fall, well then it'll have dead things and living things. So how would I portray that in a design? And that's where I'm heading now, right? So I'm looking at that.

Speaker 7:

So in order to do that, I have to go out and do the work. So if I go after a partridge, then I have to look at its innards. Then I have to look at its innards. The inside will tell me what it's eating, then it'll tell me what it's near. Where do those plants grow? Yeah, and is it near? So I know it's near certain waters. Now how do you describe water? So if I look at ocean, then if I want to describe an ocean as a skid marking, I'm going oh, big waves, huge waves, because we got 50-foot waves. There's stories of how big they are. Then you go if you want a lake, well, the lake will be middle. The lake doesn't get big waves, but they get decent, yeah, so I'll make those, just so.

Speaker 3:

If I'm near a river, which I walk all the time, you don't get big waves, so you just have almost like a ripple, yeah, and when you get to a brook, well, it's barely even moving so in this last quote of uh, tip number two, about the ancestral visual language, uh gourd brings up some very powerful uh comments around the language of the land, and so he has found it to be essential for him to understand the visual material land of his ancestors have inspired him and allowed him to interpret the designs of his community by understanding that some of these designs are based on the changing of the seasons and that language of the land is actually there and can be found. It's just that we have to put ourselves in communication with the places, the geographies, the territories that inspired these ancestral visual languages. So one of the things that I always think about is Tehoti, who is from Tahitian. He talked about and I'll share this in a future episode now that I'm thinking about it, I did an interview with Tehote for my master's thesis and he talks about, you know, he could look into the trees and he knows the same birds that his ancestors would have saw. He knows the trees, he knows the brooks, he knows the mountains because he can see them on his geography and he uses his knowledge of his ancestral Tahitian language in connection to those places in his territory and builds a list of his ancestral visual language, and so Gord is interpreting Mi'kmaq design symbols and motifs through the lens of the language of the land, which is required as he goes out to harvest moose, goes out to harvest sweet grass and all of those ancestral practices that he has been gifted with the knowledge of how to do. And so the language of the land is one of the last parts of this visual language, this tip number two for the revival of your ancestral tattooing practice. So go out onto the land, go into the museum collections, go into those things that have been written about us, go into your communities and start to look at your ancestral visual language as the foundation for the revival of your ancestors' tattooing.

Speaker 3:

Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air Plus Ko-Fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.

Speaker 3:

We're going to move into tip number three, which is connecting with your people, and so this is another foundational piece that connects to your ancestral visual language to find some of those pieces that have been written about your ancestors tattooing that have not been recorded. I've heard it said that you know, when Tate came to our people, we didn't tell him. Everything is the phrase that I have heard and then also you can, when you, even you read Tate's book about Antelope Cutmuck tattooing or as it's called, tattooing and Face and Body Painting of the Thompson Indians is that he found it difficult to find interpretations of some of these design symbols and motifs, especially because they were connected in many ways to the acquiring of our spirit helpers or our shenim. But here we're looking at tip number three, connecting with your people, and the quote we're going to begin with for tip number three, connecting with your people, is from episode 31, I believe, and that is Jacqueline Merritt, who's a stilkoteen, ancestral skin marker and hand poke practitioner who works in the interior of British Columbia.

Speaker 1:

As I was diving into the different research, there was only little tidbits of here and there. But then what I found the most proactive was going back to my community and sitting with my people and my elders In different parts of my nation as well. Um, because we have six communities, but really connecting and being in person because of uh, some of the revitalization I was doing like was online and during covid. Yeah, so it was really hard to connect to my people because of that. But once that was over and I was able to do that tour within my nation, that's kind of where it really sparked and I was like oh, I want to share this teaching and I want to see what history and you know who can come out and share these spaces with me.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, I was only able to do the three out of the five, but the communities I went to was like Las Koch, yonasaitin and Hanigutin, which is my home community, but it happened to be those three communities where my etsu, lucy Lu and Hanli, had sisters in, and so that helped create that connection so much stronger and easier, I feel, because her you know nieces and nephews were there. Her you know sisters they have passed but they lived there and so some of those tidbits were there and when I create that connection, people were coming forward in a sense of like oh, I didn't know, this is what we had, to the point where, like oh, one, when um lady was like, yes, we did have this. My great great grandmother had the marking and it was on her hands and some were on her face and I never knew what it was about. But this was like two generations from my generation. Um, so it was.

Speaker 1:

It was like tidbits, but once I heard I was like, oh, tell me more. And it has to have been like that. But I also was able to sit down with one of my aunties, galene, and she was sharing. She was like, yeah, you're actually your great-grandfather taught your grandmother how to do tattooing and I was like what no one like it was like, so was diving more into it, and so the story behind my great grandfather, which is Sam Boulian he the story is that he came from the other side of the mountain.

Speaker 3:

So this is a powerful testimony of the work that needs to be done in community and the powerful knowledge that can come from that work. And so, you know, part of it is just going into community and sharing the gifts that you have related to the practice of your ancestors tattooing. And it will be through that work that long past memories that have been sitting dormant will come to life, and some of that will be related to knowledge around language. Some of that will be related to stories that maybe somebody hasn't thought about an elder, a knowledge keeper who hasn't thought about tattooing. And it's actually the sitting in front of somebody who's actually doing the work that inspires that memory or sparks that memory to come back into this plane of existence.

Speaker 3:

And so it's important for us to go out into community and do the work and provide opportunities for conversation while you're doing the work. So it's not just doing the work, it's actually uh, that knowledge that will be coming from community, from elders, knowledge keepers about your own family's tattooing practices or maybe them of hearing somebody who wore the marks. And so, yeah, it's uh just essential that we get out into community, because this is the next place that we go to in. Tip number three is just visiting in community, which allows us the opportunity to hear stories, and this is true of my own experience of being with community, having people, community members, come in and it's usually an uncle or an auntie or, you know, their mother or somebody in their family who shares a little tiny piece of knowledge that hasn't been recorded by the anthropologist, who hasn't, that hasn't been shared with anyone. And so here's, you know, another tip go out into your community, do the work and provide that opportunity for knowledge.

Speaker 4:

and so we're moving into, uh the second quote in this, uh tip number three, which is um q uh bidwa again, uh talking about uh the maori revival and his experience in it yeah, like before I had my masters or anything, um, my, my teaching was on the marae, it was in our place of sitting with the ancestors, and they might not know anything about moko, but they'll know one specific thing and they'll just go. Oh boy, I remember when Korotiri Te Kani was sitting there and he told me that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they're talking about moko. Yeah, but it's something that they didn't think was important, that no one else knows about.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so what, we used to call them gems. We used to call them gems, yeah, and we would run a wānanga and then we would go bro, how many gems did we get this weekend? And then we would go, yes, there goes a gem. And and then we'll go, yes, there goes a gem, and we'll grab that gem and put it straight in now what we call our kete mātauranga, so our basket of learning.

Speaker 3:

So these are the things that you're thinking about, you're talking about, you're sharing with other practitioners from your community as those gems that you find through conversations with community elders as you're out doing the work, as you're out sharing about the things that you're doing, as you're out doing the work, as you're out sharing about the things that you're doing, as you're hunting with your uncle, as you are doing the work of the revival of other types of ancestral visual material culture, like basket making or beadwork or any of these other art forms that we have, and so those are the gems that you gather and then you share with those other practitioners in your community so that you can help to lift everyone up in the knowledge that they have around our ancestral tattooing practices.

Speaker 3:

And so we're going to be moving into tip number four, and this is an important tip that helps us to understand why it takes so long sometimes to do the work. And so that's tip number four, which is understanding the fear. And so the tip is to understand where your people are coming from, understand the journey that they have taken and understanding that sometimes this work is slow because of the fear that comes forward from the work. And this is again Julie Palma Pangali, who's a Mari Moko practitioner.

Speaker 6:

There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear of retribution from you know, of persecution.

Speaker 7:

Yeah.

Speaker 6:

There's a lot of fear from a lot of our elders about, you know, the trauma around it disappearing, the violation of their ways, and also there's fear around whether it should belong whether it should stay buried with some of our people.

Speaker 5:

Yeah.

Speaker 6:

And so all of those challenges are really real and there's a lot of criticism too. The eyes are on you in terms of how you conduct yourself. Are you saying ritual? I mean, we've had situations where we've been told not to do it and you know the whare nui, because blood was never shed. And then other people are saying, well, we brought our dead into there. So, there's all those debates that go on.

Speaker 7:

Yeah.

Speaker 6:

And it's a really difficult process. But it's a beautiful process because our people actually have to consider you know, their views they yeah they can't just sit behind those views when and it gains a momentum, yeah, a worthy momentum because you can't.

Speaker 3:

You can't revive something without your community so, uh, this clip is really powerful in that, um, you know, it's important for us to understand where some of the fear comes from and where some of the pushback that comes from our communities when we're trying to do this work. Some of that is due to colonization, some of that is due to Christianization and religious teachings that put a lot of fear into our communities around, this being a practice that should stay in the past and not come forward. But, yeah, just important for us to understand that sometimes that pushback is due to fear because of trauma, because of the way that our ancestors and our relatives have been treated in the past, and so this helps us to understand that we need to be patient, and so that's really what number tip number four is is have patience and understand where your community is coming from as you do this work gently and move into the future for the people to be. So tip number five is learning and re-educating, and so this tip is all about the journey that you must take as you learn. You're also doing the work of re-educating those people who have lived in fear for so long, who have felt scared to demonstrate who they are.

Speaker 3:

So some of that fear, of course, is coming from those times that our ancestors had to hide who they were because it was actually dangerous for them. You know, some families decided to leave reserve communities. Some of our families decided to go into urban centers because they didn't want their children to go into residential schools, they didn't want their children in the day schools and they wanted to find a different life because they didn't have the economic opportunities that they had in their communities. And so this is tip number five, which is, as you are learning, you are also re-educating and we're going to listen to. You are learning, you are also re-educating, and we're going to listen to uh q again, uh, as he talks about his experience with the re-education and the work that he had to do in, uh, the revival of moko uh mari tattooing and we had to re-educate our old people because there was a art form that had been lost and they knew nothing about it because it had skipped their generation.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, you know, it had been almost totally wiped out. So we had to re-educate our own people here in our area, our province. Yeah, and we did that through going through and running what we call wānanga, or places of learning, on every single one of our ancestral marae. Wow, so we re-educated everyone inside our ancestral whare, using the ancestral whare as the example and teaching them about what our markings were about.

Speaker 4:

And it was something not to be feared, because we had been so colonized for so long and we were told to be fearful of having these markings that they were signs of slavery.

Speaker 4:

And we were told to be fearful of having these markings that they were signs of slavery, that they were signs of being a gang member. They were nothing but intimidating. And we were told for so long that we had to dismiss all these Western constructs that were pressed on us and we had to tell the people that these markings were a reflection of who we were. Yeah, and we had to pull that out of the ruins of colonialism in order for us to move forward as Ngaia Māori, as people from this whenua, and bring it so we could be noticed that we were Māori. Yeah, you know, because the whole thing around colonisation was to oppress us not just us, but all indigenous races is to oppress you and then make you conform to society, to a Western society. Yeah, and that was the last thing that we want, because our bastions, our last bastions of being Māori, were at a point where we were about to lose our whole culture and our whole identity, and that was one thing that our generation was not going to stand for.

Speaker 3:

So again, here in this tip number five, I believe we are looking at the process of re-education, and so part of that is also having the fortitude to stand up and to say no, these are our practices, these are the things that we did. Here's some of the evidence that I've been learning about. Here's some of the things that I've heard from elders. Here's some of the things that I've heard from elders. Here are some of the things that I've picked up from my colleagues.

Speaker 3:

These are the gems, the knowledge that I have, that I can offer to you as we move forward into fully embodying who we are as Inca people, as Maori people, as Stilkotin and Siilx or Okanagan. You know, this is the knowledge that I have to offer as we move into upholding our cultures and reviving who we are, as Indigenous people from our cultures and communities. And so this is a powerful statement as we move forward, understanding that we need to have the patience to share the gems that we have acquired, but also having the patience because of the processes of colonization, and keeping that at the forefront of our mind, allowing us to be gentle with our people, allowing us to take our time and do the work in a good way and we're going to listen next to Julie about the work that she did in her area around the revival.

Speaker 6:

And in that fledgling revival stage, I mean, we've spent most of our time going to marae, going to community environments, educating them. So someone might approach us to do moko community environments, educating them, yeah, so someone might approach us to do moko and we'd go and we'd spend three or four days educating and maybe one or two days working, and I guess you know, from at that particular point, we probably spent three days preparing needles.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 6:

You know, maybe two days out of ten we actually got to do woko and the rest of it was actually political campaign to re-educate our people, and also we always situated it within a community environment.

Speaker 3:

So here Julie is giving some context to the revival of moko and Maori tattooing in Aotearoa, new Zealand, and in this case she says maybe two or three days out of 10, they were actually doing the work of tattooing. And so you know, the Mari have been a huge inspiration for me and my own understanding of the movement of reviving ancestral skin marking and in the work that they have done they're 20, 30, 35 years ahead of us here in Turtle Island, and the work that they had to do was going into community, sharing what they had learned and understood about this work and taking that time to bring their people along with them as opposed to running ahead. And so here's tip number five is learning and re-educating. And now we're going to move into tip number six, which is progression and staying connected, and we're going to listen to Q again. A short little clip for tip number six.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, because it's not about just taking the designs from our ancestors, it's about progressing them as well. Yeah, you know, because that's what they do.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, they progress their designs all the time, yeah, so it's taking what they've given us and being able to progress it through our environment today so I find this tip to be really important and it really speaks to the movement of us as indigenous people and our right to take our ancestral inspiration, our ancestral visual language, and to begin to evolve it and progress it and move it forward. Because our ancestors tattooed, marked themselves, created in a way that related to how they lived and their life ways at that time. We are very different than our ancestors. You know, we drive cars, we fly in jet planes, we have to deal with our identities, which are legislated through things like the Indian Act or other types of legislation that you know govern the lives of Indigenous people in other parts of the world, and so our ancestors didn't have to worry about these questions.

Speaker 3:

And so it's important for us to progress our practices in a way that speaks to our contemporary lives in this time and place, and not only that, but also that helps us to remember that we have to give the freedom for those who are coming behind us to progress the work in the way that they need to for them, because their lives are going to be different than our lives, and so just allowing for the evolution of our communities and not agreeing with the anthropologists, not agreeing with the colonizer and the settler, who says that we have to stay who we were, to be authentic and to be real as the Ntuk'kot'mok'n Indigenous people.

Speaker 3:

And so, yeah, I just really appreciate this tip, that tip number six, which is to take a hold of your right to move the work forward in the way that you need it to be Just going to episode 44 and to listen to the words of Tanya Willard, who is a Shwetmuk professional artist, creative and professor at the University of British Columbia, okanagan, and Tanya and I had this conversation around the revival of our ancestral material culture, as well as tattooing. And so here's just a little piece that relates to tip number six, which is about the progression of our work and allowing for the evolution of the work in the way that it needs to go.

Speaker 1:

All within our rights and abilities and adaptations. And, yeah, what's important is carrying the thread through of our, of our languages.

Speaker 5:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So in this short clip, tanya shares that the most important piece is keeping that thread really nice and tight in the reality of us as progressing.

Speaker 3:

You know, it's always important for me, as somebody who is an innovator and somebody who likes to progress things along, to remember that I need to be balanced in that work, and that balance is to continue to hold hands with the past, to be inspired to learn, yes, to progress, but also to keep that thread really tight between where I'm going and where we've come from.

Speaker 3:

And so that thread, tanya says, is that visual language, is that oral language, and I would say even our stories, our ancestral stories, are part of that thread that helps to tether us to the past and help us to ensure the things that we do in the present for the future are there in being done in a really good way. And so we're going to move into tip number seven, which is do the work. And I always you know I'll comment a little bit more, but it's always important for us to do the things that we are inspired to do, because the perfection comes in the doing. I always say and we're going to go to Gordon Sparks, mi'kmaq, ancestral skin marker and professional tattoo artist and wooden mask carver, and Gordon's going to share a story of the learning that he did around this principle and this tip of doing the work.

Speaker 7:

And then you came back and you had another seminar at the museum. And then you came back and you had another seminar at the museum, and then that's where we approached it differently, where another teaching that I learned is whenever you're in a gathering, have people introduce themselves as well and give them their space and time. Right, yeah, and of course it came to me. And then I asked you that magical question I bring up every time I talk to them. I said so, how do you come up? First, of course, I introduced myself to the way I did earlier, and then I how do you come up with the idea of our skin markings? So, how did our people do this? You know, how do you know the significant meaning of a design? And he just bluntly said this is something that you have to figure out for yourself. What, yeah, you got to do the work and that's what it was. It's exactly.

Speaker 7:

And at first I was like what the? And so, of course, we're surrounded by all these indigenous artists and people from New Zealand and Nahon and a couple other ones, and I'm just sitting there, going like I was intimidated almost, but felt comfortable and welcomed. And then after that, I stood up by the window and had that conversation with myself and really started thinking. You approached me and talked to me and you know we've been friends ever since so this tip number seven uh, simply do the work.

Speaker 3:

And part of that, you know uh gourd shares that. You know he came to a presentation I was at uh and during that presentation he asked this question well, how, how do I find this, how do I find the meanings, how do I find the symbols? And part of this project of the revival of our ancestors' tattooing practices is you actually have to do the work to go into the museums. You have to do the work to visit with your community members. You have to do the work of looking into the books, looking into all of the places that you can find this inspiration. You can find the interpretations and go out onto the land, look at the pictographs, go do the hunting that your ancestors would have done. You're going to see the changing of the seasons, which will inspire you and help you to interpret your ancestral visual language from all of these variety of places. But you can't do that sitting in a chair. You have to do that as you go out into the world to do the research and also to do the work itself.

Speaker 3:

So, as Jackie shared, it was all about going into community, offering the little gems that she had allowed an abundance of knowledge to come forward as she was actually sharing ancestral skin marking, and so it's about doing the work. Tip number seven is do the work and we're going to move into tip number eight, which the mark is what is important, and we're going to move into tip number eight, which the mark is what is important and we're going to go into. We're going to go to episode number nine, I believe, and we're going to go to Keith Callahoo, who is a Mohawk ancestral skin marker and cultural tattoo practitioner and cultural tattoo practitioner. If you want to check out any of these artists' episodes to hear more about their journeys, head on over to their episodes. So this is episode nine with Keith Kalahou and tip number eight.

Speaker 2:

A person getting their markings is what's important Exactly, and I'm learning that each day.

Speaker 3:

It's kind of like a mantra yeah, not to shame someone, how they got their markings me to bring forward and to highlight, because it's something that I have observed as I've walked through my journey with my ancestors tattooing and the tattooing of other people's ancestral tattooing. As people have come to me to assist in the revival of their communities tattooing, many people will come forward and they'll say, oh, I got this tattoo, uh, with a machine, you know, or I had this tattoo done by somebody who's not from my community, who is non-Indigenous, and there's a lot of shame and there's a lot of guilt around that. And so, for me, this tip is really essential for us as we move forward in this work is that it's not about the tools and the technology, it's not about the person who puts the mark on you. It's actually the fact that you got the mark itself. That is about the revival of your ancestors. Tattooing is actually embodying your culture, embodying your identity as you move out into the world.

Speaker 3:

And so don't stress about it, don't uh less than because, uh, you didn't receive the mark with a hand poke or a skin stitch or a tap. Um, you got it with a machine or you got it from somebody who's not from your community. The fact that you got the mark means that you started and you're living in the revival of your ancestors tattooing. So, uh, don't worry about all of those Christian principles about shame and guilt. This tip is just to lift you up in the work that you're doing, number one as a community member, wearing your ancestors embodied artistic practice. And so we're going to go to tip number nine, which is not about us. And so, uh again, we're going to episode nine. Uh, for tip number nine, uh, with Keith Callahoo.

Speaker 2:

And I saw his mother sitting there and I saw his wife sitting there and his daughters were over there, and so I called his mother up and his wife and I said that he grabbed my each grab a hand and then lift him up and and and they did and, uh, that was one of those moments where it was, you could feel it in the whole room. Yeah, that he later shared, said that's the first marking in like 150 years for their people. Yeah, and that puts things into perspective and that's what I mean by I'm honored, like I honor it, I acknowledge it. Yeah, not about me.

Speaker 3:

This is important, you know, important phrase that Keith brings forward, which is not about me.

Speaker 3:

You know it's important for us and I guess I talked about. You know the term I used, or the tagline for tip number nine was not about us and really what it should be is keep your ego in check as the tip, you know, understand that when you're doing this work, it's not not about you, it's not about you as a practitioner, it's about the person that you're doing the work for. That is the person who is at the center of that ceremony, at the center of that work that you're doing, no matter where it is, where it's getting done at. It's important to remember that that process is about them and to honor the fact that maybe that is the first mark in that person's community, like Keith says, in the past 150 years. And so remember, this work isn't about us as practitioners, it's about those people that we're doing the work for and the communities that are allowing us to do the work that we need to. We're going to move into the final tip, tip number 10, this final tip that fears, doubts, insecurities are not ours.

Speaker 5:

I think we all have those fears, doubts, insecurities. Those things come from other places, not from our traditions, it's not from our culture, it's not from our people.

Speaker 3:

This is really going out to you as practitioners, community members, who are beginning the journey of the revival of your ancestors, tattooing. And really, this tip is that? A tip that says take courage in the things that you know, take pride in the knowledge basket that you have, be thankful the gems that you've been able to collect and to go forward boldly in the work that you need to do. I would say boldly but gently, move into the work that you know that you're called to do in your communities, remembering the health and safety of your community, remembering the fear and the doubts and the insecurities that the people that you may be working with or encountering resistance from you need to do these things in a good way, in a gentle way, but remember that the fears, doubts and insecurities, those feelings of imposter syndrome, those feelings of notoster syndrome, those feelings of not being good enough, not being Indian enough, not being indigenous enough or inter-Katmok enough or Tlingit enough, all of those things you know, those fears and doubts and insecurities are not yours and not ours as a community. Those come from outside of our communities and those are part of that technologic civilization that's trying to mine our minds and fill the pockets of those people who are in control of this system, and so remember, go forward boldly but gently, as you do this work, in the revival of your ancestral tattooing practice. Thank you for visiting with me on the Transport of Marks podcast.

Speaker 3:

Hopefully you enjoyed this solo episode. I'm going to continue this style into Season 2, as I continue to do interviews across the Indigenous world. I'm also going to be peppering in these solo episodes that share tips, reflections and also share the voices of past episode guests, because I think it's important to pull together some of these gems and to reflect on them as a practitioner, but also as a way of highlighting them for you in this format. So let me know if you enjoyed this episode in the comments. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe.

Speaker 3:

Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.

Speaker 3:

Head on over to next week's episode, where I'll be talking to Jody McIver about artificial intelligence and contemporary Indigenous art, and Jody's journey into receiving Inflicat McBlackwork bodysuit for my Inflicat McBlackwork project. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.