Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
The Intersection of Tradition and Technology in Indigenous Tattoo Culture with Jody McIvor
#047 What if your skin could tell the story of your heritage, your journey, and your spiritual growth? Join us as we explore the rich tapestry of Indigenous tattoo practices with Dion Kaszas, a talented Hungarian, Métis, and Nlaka'pamux artist, and his Nlaka'pamux Blackwork collaborator, Jody McIvor. Witness firsthand how Jody's transformative experience with a hand-poke tattoo, inspired by the Stein Valley's pictographs, set him on a path of introspection and cultural discovery. This episode delves into the profound significance of the Nlaka'pamux Blackwork Roundup and Jody's remarkable achievement of being the first-ever male to receive a full-body Nlaka'pamux bodysuit.
We embark on an unforgettable camping adventure, filled with the thrill of nature's surprises, including an unexpected encounter with a bear at Earl's Cabin. These stories highlight the intricate connections between family, nature, and personal growth, showcasing how such experiences inspire cultural expression and self-acceptance. Jody shares the journey of contemplating a culturally inspired bodysuit tattoo for a decade before finally embracing this transformative decision, further emphasizing the courage required to step beyond comfort zones.
Immerse yourself in the art of enduring lengthy tattoo sessions and the camaraderie they foster among those who undergo them. We touch upon the creative potential of AI in art and design, pondering its role in extending the legacy of tattoo culture into the digital realm. As we discuss the ethical considerations surrounding AI, we invite listeners to reflect on the importance of responsible creativity. Whether you're curious about ancestral tattoo practices or fascinated by the intersection of technology and tradition, this episode offers a wealth of insights and inspiration.
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, Arts Nova Scotia and Support4Culture.
It looks like a little stick man to everybody, a little unhappy stick man, but the book I believe it was the book, or maybe you told me this would mention that it's actually a shaman and the scarier looking face underneath it is actually a dream master.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, métis and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Inka Kutmuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:I'm Jordan McIver, born and raised in Merritt, bc, part of the Lower Neck of the Indian Band, which is part of the Anlakatma indigenous family, I suppose in our area. I moved to Kamloops in my mid-20s indigenous family, I suppose in our area Moved to Kamloops in my mid-20s and I've been there ever since and I'm 49 now, so it's about 23 years in Kamloops. Wow, as soon as I moved to Kamloops, man, the time started flying. Yeah, I bet, hey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. What was the? You know? Did you always feel that you needed to move out of merit, or you were just like I'm fucking out of here?
Speaker 1:yeah, when I was, when I was both, when I was a kid, I, I didn't know yeah. I didn't really give a shit. But as soon as uh I I grew into my 20s and started having to provide for myself and trying to having to see what uh opportunities there were, yeah locally, which was nothing right. Yeah, I could work in a sawmill, which is what I was doing, yeah, or I could uh just start getting drunk yeah and so I just said, screw it, I'm gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, I always remember coming over and us spending time visiting together as cousins. So I remember going hunting with your dad a few times, you know, driving around the back dirt roads in his little pickup his little red pickup the one.
Speaker 2:I always remember. But, yeah, I remember. Those are quite good times to reflect on and think back and also thinking of, like the what would you say? The proximity of everyone who, all of the family that lived here and lives here, was pretty cool in terms of like, yeah, staying at your dad's or staying at aunt sharon's and like it's just like a quick run here or there yeah visit with everybody right, yeah yeah, that's pretty cool yeah, that's that having that huge family like support structure yeah throughout merit was definitely great, like the, the raised being raised part was amazing here yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a great place to be born and get raised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one thing I've reflected on also, too, is like how thankful I am for that part of my growing up, you know, yeah, for me anyways of like realizing that, uh, you know, aunts and uncles decided not to be big partiers and drinkers and so, like that actually provided, you know, a fairly stable house for me to grow up and how, uh, you know, I'm always thankful now upon reflection of, like, those things that they consciously did to you know, give us a better chance, I suppose, than they had. You know, you know stories of mom like having to go pick up you know, our mom and dad from the bar when she's like 10 and shit like that, right. So, yeah, it was, uh, I am thankful for that part of, you know, my growing up and then also us always being able to come together, right, family reunions, new Year's, whatever the hell it was, you know being able to come together. So that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those are good memories.
Speaker 1:Tons of good memories, man, endless. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, tons of good memories, man Endless.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you. So we're here back in Merritt for the Intercutmuk Blackwork Roundup, and you know the reason you're here, of course, is because you have the first ever male full body intercut muck bodysuit. So that's pretty cool, uh, to think about. You know, when you think back to, oh, I guess maybe let's start again with uh, what was your first tattoo and what drew you to get that?
Speaker 1:uh well, first tattoo was was done by you, I think, 2012, was it. Yeah, after we went on a trip through the Stein Valley for five days, I think yeah, and a bunch of us came back and I don't know if all of us got a tattoo, but a bunch of us got a tattoo, a hand poke tattoo of, uh of um, pictographs from the cliff faces yeah uh, that that we, we witnessed ourselves as while we were there yeah and um, they were also in a book and I think that's what you used as a reference, um, and they were done in a hand poke style.
Speaker 1:It was my very first tattoo and it's a tender spot, but it means a lot to me, not just because it's my first tattoo, but because it speaks to my heritage and it was performed in an ancestral method and it was performed by family, almost like you're a shaman, right, which is what the first part of the tattoo is. It looks like a little stick man to everybody, a little unhappy stick man, but the book I believe it was the poker maybe you told me this would mention that it's actually a shaman. Yeah, and the scarier looking face underneath it is actually a dream mask, I think. Or was it a shaman mask? I? I can't remember.
Speaker 1:They weren't together, they weren't one in the same, it was two different pictographs, if I remember, but I liked them both so I said let's put them both in there. And you put it in there in such a way that when I close my arm, the mask actually fits nearly perfectly right onto the shaman's face did I ever show you that no, like it, you didn't do it on purpose.
Speaker 2:I'm sure right. Oh wow, that's cool yeah yeah and uh.
Speaker 1:the second to last session or maybe it was the last session, um was when I first told you how I felt like this, like this, was you like you were my shaman? And that was when I asked told you how I felt like this, was you like you were my shaman? And that was when I asked you to put the indigenous markings across the cheeks to match you, yeah, so that was a big honor to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I was like blown away when you asked me of course. Maybe I didn't show that, but I was like dang. You asked me. Of course, maybe I didn't show that, but I was like dang, it just made sense. Yeah, yeah, totally yeah. When you think back to that trip of hiking up there, what was that feeling like going into those mountains and seeing those places that our ancestors went on their, their spiritual journeys?
Speaker 1:I didn't appreciate it at the time as much as I do now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was still very interesting seeing all of that and knowing that these markings have been on the land since long before I was ever born, generations, maybe hundreds of years.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, long before I was ever born, generations, maybe hundreds of years, yeah Right. And so that I think back on it sometimes and I think, like what was the rest of the world up to when these markings were being put on this cliff face, right, yeah, Like where does that fit into history? And all those markings were very interesting to me, but I was also very distracted by just being out there in not a really risky situation, but when you're in the middle of that shit, it definitely feels like a risky situation.
Speaker 1:So so, yeah, it was, it was a memory yeah it's one of those moments in your life that you, you know it's a, it's a, it's a memory being built and it's something that's going to be with you forever yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a.
Speaker 2:I was just talking to elena about the stein and I think the way that she described it is like the even the sound of the river in the valley is sometimes almost overwhelming, right, like it's not even that you are actually in the river, but it's that the river is always, ever present and it kind of echoes throughout that whole valley and sometimes you're just like, wow, you're thinking of the power of that place. And then was it our yeah, it was our trip where larry seen that bear. Do you remember that?
Speaker 1:we saw a few, I think, but when you're talking about the one in the campground, like when we were just settling in for that, I always tell people that story. We're all seeing it, I'm just going to tell it again.
Speaker 2:My brother, larry, we all hiked into the camp we were setting up and what is it? What is the cabin? Earl's Cabin, I think it's called. Right, so we were setting up at Earl's Cabin and my brother put out his camping mat and he's just laying there and we're all setting up. He's just exhausted and all I remember is him going guys in like a totally monotone, low, low voice guys, and I think after the third or fourth time he went guys and we're like what he's like.
Speaker 3:There's a bear.
Speaker 2:And like the bear was, like you know, half of the distance of like a room, like what, maybe 10, 15 feet, maybe 20 feet at the max, if that, walking towards us, just chilling out, walking towards us, and I remember your dad, you know, snapping into action with the bear spray, like you know, like total, ready to go. And then, of course, vicky grabbed her cowbell, which is like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding ding.
Speaker 2:And started running towards the bear and it took off, of course, and then we were all like dude, like give us a little bit more emphasis than that, right? And he, just, his reply, from my recollection was like I was done, and so if he ate me, he ate me. But yeah, no, that is one of those my memories from that trip of like, well, the ever presence of, you know, actually predatory animals.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of course, when we're not used to that and we're just not living in that. You know, sometimes the wall of a tent doesn't seem like that much protection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially when you hear stuff rubbing up against your tent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at two in the morning, yeah, definitely you're like we're gonna pretend that's a squirrel, yeah, but yeah, no, I really enjoyed that trip and uh, yeah, uh, yeah, some of the joyous moments for me of that trip was seeing the smile on your dad's face, oh yeah, you know like some of that was like priceless to me. It was just like whoa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was definitely in his element.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was pretty cool, Although, you know, bringing 18 bottles of full Gatorade, oh uncle, oh uncle. And then his, uh, his stove. That was like, almost like it was like a big, huge butane stove that he brought. He only brought it out once, I think, and he actually cooked us spam on the way out and that was like gold, that spam, that fried spam that he made us.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that was awesome I remember, I vaguely remember, something was spam, but I don't remember a gas cooker yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was pretty big.
Speaker 2:But anyways, yeah, that was just, uh, you know, actually, that, I would say, was that year, and that trip was like the most foundational start of kind of the serious research for what has manifested into the receiving of your bodysuit and the work for the Antikyatmik visual dictionary.
Speaker 2:The Antikyatmuk visual dictionary um, so, yeah, like I totally lift you up and all the family that have helped me to get to this place, you know, um, always love, always care, you know, even though sometimes I was doing stupid shit, so I just lift all the family up who helped me get here. And you know those people who walked, and even though you know people don't understand how important it is those trips of like, you know that what that impact of some of those things will do for us in our life is, uh, we don't appreciate it, I think, like you said, and in the very moment, but that's when we look back and we go, oh, fuck, fuck, like that was so epic and so such a big part of the journey. Yeah, so we did your hand poke. And how many years was it till we started? You said 2012,. Right, so what? We started in 2021.
Speaker 1:Yeah, late 2021, maybe early 2022.
Speaker 2:I don't remember so almost 10 years, almost a decade later, we started your bodysuit. What was your you?
Speaker 3:know, have you always wanted to?
Speaker 2:have a lot of coverage in terms of tattoos, and what was that idea to like come into receiving an intericama block work and then even a bodysuit.
Speaker 1:I had given it some thought in the years between getting this tattoo and starting the bodysuit with you and I had considered what I might want. And I had considered what I might want and more often than not it would come into my mind that if I do get something, it's got to be something larger, like something that takes up every available space. Yeah, like bodysuit was in the back of my mind probably for a good two years before you put out the request for people to join you on this journey.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was also in a place of forcing myself out of my comfort zone, because I always I still do and I used to always have the idea for something. I knew I could do something, but I just wouldn't do it. I would just procrastinate or I would say that would be cool, but never get around to it. I would say that would be cool, yeah, but never get around to it. Yeah, and right around that time where I was just getting out of that little personal funk.
Speaker 2:I was like forcing myself to try new things and all of this stuff, it's so body suit. Yeah, that's it yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was like still thinking about getting more tattoos and my mind kept saying full body suit. And then, literally, I think maybe a month later, you put out that feeler on Instagram.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was like well enough fucking around, enough procrastinating, yeah, let's do this. So as soon as you posted it, as soon as I saw the post I sent out my thing, I was like yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No more saying no, no more procrastinating. It's the same idea with the mask right. That was just me enabling myself to limit myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But without it I do care, but I, I don't give a fuck it's that fine balance right.
Speaker 2:That's a fine line and I would like in some ways, I would say, like, for me, the doing the podcast is kind of like that, where it's like, really, am I doing this, am I putting this out here? And then it's like, ah, fuck it, let's do it. Yeah, you know, um, yeah, so yeah, pushing yourself through some of those limiting beliefs or those, uh, maybe even habits, I suppose, yeah, yeah. So what was, uh, what was the journey like? Getting full coverage, you know, body suit, what was that journey like?
Speaker 1:it was eye opening yeah yeah, eye opening in a lot of different ways. It was eye opening in my own like seeing my own physical endurance, like what I was capable of enduring. Yeah, it was eye-opening in maybe not emotionally eye-opening, but it opened my eyes a bit more, like being around all of this not just getting the tattoo, like being around all of this, not just getting the tattoo, but being around all of this and seeing other people's perspectives on our, on our North American, I guess heritage North American.
Speaker 3:Indian heritage yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there's so many different aspects to them all and I don't think everybody here is uh in l'capemot, but they are, yeah, all part of another similar lineage somewhere else yeah right and uh, it forced me to see things in a different light and uh, have a little bit more respect.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I wonder how much of that also was from watching you know, because you've met a bunch of people and then also watching some of that unfold on social media. Yeah, you know, I imagine and this is just me thinking about it I imagine there's actually a lot of education that goes through those platforms, especially from other ancestral tattoo practitioners and skin markers that people absorb just from viewing it. And, um, when you think about um, what were you hoping when you started that process? I think I asked in the kind of consultation form you know why do you want to do this and what, how? What changes do you think will happen? I think you just said, I think I'll just get a tattoo, yeah right and so yeah, has that changed?
Speaker 2:and what has that experience been?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it has changed. Um, I don't remember my exact answer there. Yeah, um, but I do know that I was in a place of forcing myself into a position that I knew I wanted to be in, but I didn't have the mental capacity to do it. So that's probably where that short answer came from, like, stop trying to stop me, let's just get it started.
Speaker 2:So I can't stop. Yeah, don't let me think about it too long. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And I was overthinking it right up until our first session.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But after that first session it was all in.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I kind of strayed from your question there. What was the no? It's all in. Yeah, I think I kind of strayed from your question there.
Speaker 2:What was the? No, it's all good, no, it was just what's the difference between how I feel about that now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it's my own. Well, it goes back to the whole not giving a fuck thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was forcing myself to go into a position where I may not give a fuck.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just when we started.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think I'm pretty far into the not giving a fuck yeah Now, like for instance when we first started after our first session far into the not giving a fuck. Now, Like, for instance, when we first started after our first session, after I was healed up, it was just all line work everywhere, except for this black elbow and this black elbow.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But that was more than enough to be turning heads. Yeah, but that was more than enough for to be turning heads.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'd never given that any consideration.
Speaker 3:Mm.
Speaker 1:And I definitely gave a fuck with all those turning heads. Yeah, I wasn't getting angry at anybody or anything, but I was really noticing, yeah, how some people were like, oh, interesting, and some people were like, oh, that guy must be an asshole, yeah, so a lot of people I meet now are, once they get to know me, they realize I'm a nice guy. But it is definitely, like you probably already know first impressions, yeah, most people would prefer to avoid you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that is what kind of forced the not giving a fuck. So after that first session with the, the very visible blacked out elbows, yeah, I would say probably right up until our next session. I was very self-conscious.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Very self-conscious about it. Like I would. I would keep them covered If I was at like a family thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very self-conscious about it Like I would?
Speaker 1:I would keep them covered. Uh, if I was at like a, a family thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause I have a very conservative uh aunt who couldn't help herself but to look very visibly uh, yeah very visibly not disturbed. She loves me and I love her.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you could. You could tell that she was concerned.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Not disturbed. She was concerned for me.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So whenever I visit, say, her place, I usually have full sleeves on.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But up until that second session I did cover it up quite a bit. And then I think after that session it started to wear out. Maybe it's like that for everybody, where the zero fucks just get wider and wider over time. And I'm almost there. I mean I'm not going to be comfortable getting naked, yeah. And I'm almost there. I mean I'm not going to be comfortable getting naked, yeah, but I don't give a shit what people think of me in public anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, that's cool to see that little bit of, I guess, the push that you gave yourself actually manifested through the wearing of the marks Right, it's like you wanted to push yourself to be in a place where you didn't give a fuck actually manifested through the wearing of the marks right, it was like you wanted to push yourself to be in a place where you didn't give a fuck and it was actually the marks that helped you to get to that place, because you just have no other choice.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, yeah, yeah, it was a lot of growth, yeah. A lot of personal and mental and emotional growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I think about I wanted to just come back to you mentioned that one of the things that happened that you didn't think would happen was, or one of the things that you realized is the physical pain, tolerance or stamina that you have that you actually didn't think that you had. So can you explore that a little bit with me? Yeah, hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new, consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom.
Speaker 2:Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, Ko-Fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was really surprised, maybe because you hyped it up like it was going to be a real motherfucker getting the elbows on that first session. Yeah it up like it was gonna be a real mother fucker getting the elbows. Yeah, on that first session, yeah, and I remember like the first day you did, you did the first elbow yeah if I remember and and you're like get ready, this is gonna suck and yeah and then we just kind of went through it and finished it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean it's tattoo work. It's painful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't as bad as you had hyped it up to be. Yeah, that's also probably where I learned that it's different for everybody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Everybody's got their sensitive spots and I guess the elbows aren't my sensitive spot.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, everybody's got their sensitive spots, and I guess the elbows aren't my sensitive spot but I did I did prefer you. I know your stamina is a big part of the equation as well. I did prefer you to power through. Yeah, because, like with these big pieces, you didn't really have a choice.
Speaker 1:You had to stop and take a break yeah and that was the the worst part in most of them, yeah, was getting halfway through something. My breathing, yeah, my breathing exercises have been keeping me through and, yeah, my adrenaline has been keeping me through yeah and then, oh, time for a 15 minute-minute break, yeah. And then it's tender and raw.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When you start up again. So yeah. So yeah, but I learned a ton about my physical endurance. Definitely throughout the entire thing I did have to tap out a couple times.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In some rough spots, the shins. In some rough spots, the shins and, I think, the soft armpit parts here. Yeah, if I remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think those were like on day three of a three-day session. So it's not just that is the extended amount of time that really does push you kind of to that wall, right? Yeah, it's that extended amount of time that really does push you kind of to that wall, right? Yeah, it's that extended amount of time that, yeah, your body just says nah, uh-uh, we're done. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know the. So we're in here in the Antecomic Blackwork Roundup, kind of this kind of final push to move into whatever the next phase of everything is. You know what was it like to be in a room with 16 other people who have gotten an extensive amount of work? You know?
Speaker 1:There was a lot of ink in that room. Yeah, so much, yeah, of work you know, there was a lot of ink in that room, yeah, so much. Yeah, um, it was honestly, it was an honor. I kind of felt uh almost like an imposter, like like some people mentioned uh about other aspects of feeling like an imposter yesterday, but like uh, and I think it's kind of a minor being near a celebrity thing yeah because I mean, they're not celebrities, but a good half of them yeah I had never uh met before and my only introduction to them was um your podcasts yeah because I've listened to all of them except for maybe one or two.
Speaker 1:If you've released a couple in the past two weeks.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And being able to put those voices to faces was a big thing for me. Seeing some of the faces from Instagram as well yeah, it was comfortable, but pretty uncomfortable as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was an overwhelming evening or afternoon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see that, but the reality is, of all the people in that room you probably have the most ink.
Speaker 1:You think so yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Part of that is the size of you as a human and then the amount of coverage that you have. Right, those two things combined, that's a lot of ink.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's pretty cool. I thought it was actually. We were down at the hot tub in the pool last night and there was a selection of us and it was just like wow, the amount of ink. Because of course you can see it all right.
Speaker 3:Oh, everybody in their bathing suits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, yeah it's just like, wow, this is cool, um. So yeah, we're starting to move into a conversation of, um, you know, uh, the potential of an exhibition and um, you know you had shared, uh, about the potential of somehow creating or training I guess is the language that you used an AI model as a type of artistic response to the project. Could you tell me a little bit more about that, just as a general idea, you know, because we're still kind of zeroing down on what that might look like?
Speaker 1:yeah, I've never trained an ai model before, but I've used a lot of ai models over the years, like the last two or three years, and and I continue to do so. But I've used them enough that I kind of have a basic understanding of how a model is built, is trained, and as long as you feed into that model only what you want it to output, like examples of you want it to output, it's never going to output exactly what you ask for.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's AI. It's going to do whatever the hell it wants with guidance.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But basically what we would do is figure out how to actually start training the model and then figure out a series of images yeah that we would want uh to be, uh, that ai model's example like that, what it would train itself on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh. So the more images we used uh, the better uh the output we would we would get. I believe, yeah, so, as you mentioned earlier, before we started this um, you brought out the idea of uh instead of photos of people, uh with uh into black work. Maybe, uh, it could be photos of your um designs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your black work designs yeah and I think that would well, that would be better for our own anonymity as well, but that would be probably a lot easier, yeah, for the model to to grasp right, because it's then it's looking at at this, this rendition, instead of trying to recreate the human body along with that rendition. Yeah, um, so the bigger the pool size, uh, the better the outcome yeah I believe, yeah um, but I think it would be cool yeah, be interesting.
Speaker 2:It's a you know, uh, like I said, uh, before, we were just chatting about it. You know, of course, some of the critiques of that is. Um, you know, cultural appropriation. You know, of course, some of the critiques of that is, you know, cultural appropriation. You know some of those type of concerns, yeah, so you know, for me it's also like an opportunity to learn, right, because having enough knowledge to address some of those concerns I think is also important for me is, and also to learn about it, because I don't think that it's going anywhere, right, I think that it is that next wave of technology which has been building since, you know, forever.
Speaker 2:And the one thing that I mentioned is, like, people are making the critique about AI, but you know, uh, what really is the difference between throwing it up on Instagram, which has its own algorithm, which is actually an AI, some type of algorithmic, you know, artificial intelligence which does its own thing and then pulls it, uses it, does all this stuff, and that's all in your terms of service that you say they can do it, um, so it's like yeah, so it's like an interesting thing that, to be honest, I'm fairly ignorant about, but I'm totally open about exploring it and being able to understand it well enough for number one for me to go yeah, let's, let's run with it.
Speaker 2:and number two to come back and answer some of those critiques and some of those ideas that I know that will be pushed back upon us doing that type of thing.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think it's also like, in some ways it comes from a sense of fear almost of like things people don't understand, things that maybe also like and again, I'm just throwing it out there, I don't know 100%, but it's like yeah, people don't understand it.
Speaker 2:Therefore, they push back against it. But, like I say, if your stuff is on the internet, it's going to be in an algorithm and an AI model in some way, shape or form, and so it makes sense to me for us to again harness the technology and train it the way that we want it to be used and trained, as opposed to it being trained by someone else and outputting something that maybe we don't want, right? Yeah, um, if we're not taking up that space and we're not talking about, we're not learning um, then we lose the opportunity to fully harness it and to use it in the same way that those people who, uh, scoffed at a rifle, you know, ended up dead, because it's just a more efficient tool at the job of killing than, uh, bow and arrow, especially when you think of, like, from distance, all of those type of things and it's really thinking about it as technology. Yeah, so just putting that out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, we wouldn't be here if we didn't naturally have that healthy level of fear, yeah, which a lot of people have towards anything that contains the letters A and I. Yeah, but it's a good fear to have, because the AI that we're talking about is nothing like the AI that is being developed and may already be developed. I know that they're probably pretty close getting artificial general intelligence happening, and that's the one that I think people think of when they hear the letters AI and a little spark of fear in the back of their mind. They hear the letters AI and a little spark of fear in the back of their mind, and it's a healthy fear because nobody knows what it's going to be capable of. It's like when they made the nukes.
Speaker 3:It's a turning point in humanity's technology.
Speaker 1:So, just like the nukes, we'll have to manage, we'll have to take care of it and make sure nothing crazy happens. But, yeah, there's multiple different types of AI models the ones that they're working on, the general intelligence ones. The thought can be frightening, yeah, but it could also make the world like a utopia yeah in the best case scenario. Yeah, and the ones that we're talking about are like picture humanity 5 million years in the past, right that?
Speaker 1:is the kind of AI model that we're thinking of right now, versus the present 5 million years into the future, the AGI, that is a possibility. So this one over here that we were talking about trying out, it's like an algorithm, like you said, but you just throw data into it and it spits out data with guidelines from you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you could give it a hundred photos of your artwork and then tell it spit out something in the art style of Dion Kassas.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then it would spit something out and it would probably look like you made it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But there would be something about it that would make you know that Dion didn't make it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and what you can do with those is it spits out a single image, but you can automate these models to iterate just a little bit and spit out another image.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And iterate just a little bit and spit out another image, and that's how I made a lot of the videos on my Instagram.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Where it's animation but it's just a series of images that were spit out by an AI model, thinking it was making a single image, and that's all that. The model knows how to do. It knows how to look at an image or a series of images and try to make something similar. Wow, it's a totally different ballgame than the stuff that scares everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good, thank you, for you know framing it in the context of those two distinctive things that actually we're talking about in terms of, you know, artificial general intelligence, and then you know, a what would you say? A. Well, you called it a model, but like it's more of a container, of a model that you actually have more control over, whereas people are thinking of, even thinking of, say, uh, those ai that have access to the whole internet. You know, uh, that's completely different than what, what's being talked about here.
Speaker 2:so I think that's a good place to make that distinction of what we're actually talking about and that you have more, you have control of the model that we're speaking of, whereas the one that's out there that most people have, you know, an understanding of or a minor connection to, or, you know, played with a bit, is completely different yeah yeah, yeah, no, that's a important distinction and, you know, also helps me to start to frame it in my own mind in terms of, like a using it for an artistic response purpose, and so I guess I should, probably, you know, since this is going to be a podcast episode, you know what I'm talking about is we did the Intercup of Black Work project.
Speaker 2:What I'm talking about is we did the Intercup of Black Work project. So I have 18 collaborators who have received everything from a back piece body suit all the way down to a sleeve, single sleeve or double leg sleeves, and I've asked each of the collaborators if they'd like to develop an artistic response to the receiving of the work, and so I'm just exploring that uh here to see what we might be able to come up with in terms of your idea. So, yeah, just giving a bit of context so people aren't like yeah what the fuck are these guys talking?
Speaker 2:about yeah, um, but no, I think it's an interesting idea and, yeah, who knows? Right, because it's uh, yeah, it might be something super interesting that we don't know of. And, you know, I don't really have a lot of fear around it, because part of that is knowing that this type of thing is happening, and the more knowledge we have around it, the more we can, you know, start to use it as a technology for our own purposes, and I think that, yeah, I mean, that's what our ancestors did. You know, it's an innovation that has been building to now. It's an innovation that has been building to now and, like you said, it probably has been being experimented with for a longer time than we're even aware of, and so it's time to start to develop those things, come to an understanding of them and use them in the ways that we would like to use them, I suppose.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't want to be like left behind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, like your, your thoughts on the rifle and stuff. Um, when I yeah, I guess, as we're kind of starting to wind down this conversation, is there any things that you think you'd like to explore, things you'd like to share about any of the things that we have talked about, or any questions that you have or anything that you'd like to discuss?
Speaker 1:Nothing comes to mind Okay.
Speaker 2:No no no, I was just looking forward to hanging out? Yeah, totally hanging out on camera awesome no cool, um no. So I uh, really uh. Thank you for taking the time, you know number one to uh. Well, I thank you for being an awesome cousin. You know, uh. To be honest, some of the uh, I was actually really inspired by you.
Speaker 2:As you know, a young, a little young beyond right, some of the artwork that you used to draw and some of the stuff that you used to do was actually quite inspirational, and I really looked up to you for some of your artwork, which I find is really interesting, because I think I asked you last time, you're like no, I haven't really drawn in a really long time, right, you said. I think sometimes you draw once in a while just because you get that little spark, but it's not something you do on the regular. Yeah, but yeah. So I just have to lift you up and thank you for being an inspiration for me, you know, as a, as a young person, and coming up, and also for taking the time to your comfort zone to be documented when we're doing the work, people taking photographs of you, all of that stuff being a video of you getting your butt cheek tattooed, that's not a very comfortable thing.
Speaker 2:So I just thank you and hold you up for doing that, and I'm also thankful that you took the time to chat with me on the Transformative Marks podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you, man, thanks for letting me be a part of this.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head on over to next week's episode, where I'll be sharing some tips around researching your ancestors' tattooing practice, around researching your ancestors' tattooing practice, looking into the visual and material culture of your community. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.