Transformative Marks Podcast

Indigenous Tattoo Artists, Ancestral Tools and Modern Rebirth: Picking the Right Tool with Dion Kaszas and Guests

• Dion Kaszas

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#050 Discover the artistry and resilience embedded in Indigenous tattooing as we celebrate the 50th episode of Transformative Marks Podcast. Join me, Dion Kaszas, along with insightful guests like the Maori practitioner Que Bidois, as we unravel the rich tapestry of ancestral skin markings. This episode promises to expand your understanding of how traditional tools and modern technology coalesce, crafting a unique narrative that both honors and evolves cultural identity. Listen as we navigate through stories and experiences that highlight the profound connection between these tools and our ancestral lineage, reflecting the cultural resurgence across diverse communities.

The episode offers a platform for voices like Terry Kolomatangi, a Tongan and Sami practitioner, and Julie Paama-Pengelly, who share their perspectives on embracing tools from both the past and present. Through their reflections, we explore the freedom of choice in tattooing methods without imposing hierarchies, ensuring authenticity in cultural expression. We emphasize the importance of journeying to ancestral territories and using traditional tools as a means of connecting with one's roots, a journey that transcends mere artistry and touches on the very essence of cultural resilience.

As we continue to explore the transformative power of Indigenous tattooing, we acknowledge the importance of the people and stories behind the marks. Nolan Malbeuf shares poignant insights, reminding us that the significance lies in the individuals and their choices, not solely in the tools used. By removing shame and embracing ancestral markings as a personal and community-driven decision, we invite you to join us in celebrating the revival of these powerful traditions.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

You can find Keone at:
Instagram @suluape_keone

You can find Terje at:
Instagram @terje_k
YouTube: @terjekoloamatangi2946

You can find Que at:
Instagram @quebidois

Check out Keith's work at:
Instagram @ohnatattoo 

You can find Nahaan at:
Instagram @chilkat_tattoo

You can find Julie at:
Instagram  @julesartistmoko

Check out Nolan Malbeuf at: 
Instagram @malbeuf 

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts

Support the show

Speaker 1:

The use of ancestral tools and technology maybe is a different song that will sing to your heart in the way that it needs to, but the reality is, for me, when I think about this topic, it's wearing the marks and receiving the marks that's most important, not necessarily the way that you receive them. The Transformative Marks Podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island.

Speaker 1:

In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work. Hi, my name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intracat cultural tattoo practitioner, ancestral skin marker, professional tattoo artist and the host of the Transformative Marks podcast. I welcome you to episode 50. I never actually believed that we could get to this place, even though I dreamed of it, and so we're actually just coming to the end of season one and December. I'm recording here on December 2nd and you know it'll be going out tomorrow, so I'm excited to share this episode with you. So I just want to acknowledge the support of the Canada Council of the Arts and Arts, arts Nova Scotia and support for culture, as well as all of those who have donated and supported me through Ko-Fi, which is an awesome creator-friendly platform that you can just go there, buy me a coffee and it goes straight to the podcast. I'll be updating my equipment for this upcoming season number two and some of the donations over there will help to support the invitation of future guests. So I just ask that if you would like to support the podcast, head on over to ko-ficom forward, slash transformative marks and leave a little bit of support there as I go into season two. If you have an indigenous practitioner, ancestral skin marker, professional, tattoo artist or indigenous academic or artist that you'd like featured, head on over to Ko-Fi. Give me a message and let me know who you potentially would like to see on this podcast. I have a new season already under works. Many episodes have been recorded and I'll be going in to continuing that process. So thanks again to Canada, council for the Arts, arts, nova Scotia and Support for Culture, as well, as all of you have supported me through my Ko-Fi page.

Speaker 1:

In this episode we'll be looking at the conversation around what's the appropriate tool for the job, and so you know this is an interesting conversation and it has a variety of perspectives. Has a variety of perspectives and I'd just like to offer this episode as an opportunity for us to sit in a virtual circle as I ask my friends who I've had conversations with in the past to offer their knowledge, their thoughts, their feelings and their perspective on this question of what is the most appropriate tool for the job. You know, many times this conversation is actually positioned in a way that is not very helpful this or that, and you know machine tattoos versus ancestral tools and technology, which is not really a very helpful binary. You know that's a very colonial perspective in putting these things versus each other. And I think today, each of my friends who I've interviewed in the past will give an interesting perspective from their own positionality, from their own culture and from their own community, and so I offer each of these speakers, each of these practitioners as an example for you to maybe pull a little gem from that will help to support your work, because I don't think that my perspective or another practitioner's perspective, regardless of how long they've been around, is the right perspective. We each have to take that in our own understanding, our own positionality, into perspective. Some of that has to do with how well colonization has impacted our selective community. So some folks have elders who have contained knowledge, who have kept it. Some people have stories you know. Some people also have, you know, those academic and scholarly texts that have documented their tattooing practice, and so, and then we also look even further out where many communities have one mention in a you mention in a notebook, that somebody stated that they had a tattooing practice, although they don't have a canon of inspiration to pull from.

Speaker 1:

And so this is where we begin. That conversation is to honor the place of each of us in our revival movements and to honor that and to acknowledge that each of us has our own place, our own positionality and our own ability to pick things up. And for me, this conversation is less about the practitioner and is actually more about the individual wearing the marks, because I think that's what this work is actually about. This work is not about us as practitioner. This work is about those who are wearing the marks in our communities. It's about those who are living a culture. And so, yes, we are the practitioners who place the marks on our community's bodies, but it's actually the person wearing those marks, embodying those marks, living in the community, doing the hard work of living as an Int'liq'atmik person, indigenous person. And so, as we enter this conversation, I don't want to position it as an us versus them or position it in any other type of way, but except to offer different perspectives, because I think that's where the strength comes from. It's actually our diversity, actually our diversity not only in terms of our cultures, our communities, but also perspectives. I think it's our diversity and perspective that actually gives us strength and that is represented through the circle sitting asking for a variety of opinions. You know this is definitely supported by the interior Salish community and many of our stories and the way that we went about decision making, ancestral tools and technology and the contemporary use of machine tattooing in the revival of indigenous tattoo practices.

Speaker 1:

So we're going to step into this solo episode with a variety of my friends who I've spoken with over over the years, whether that be in Kohala, hawaii, at the traditional tattoo festival or at Toikiri in the past few years, hosted there by Julie Pama Pangali and the team at Toikiri and, you know, all the way down to visiting with Keone in Hawaii. So the first voice we're going to listen to beside my own is Julie Pamapengali, from Aotearoa, new Zealand. Julie and I had this conversation in episode two, so way back in January of 2024, and so you know, go back there, check it out, is an awesome episode, and so Julie is going to start us off and put us in the right place. So these first couple of clips are not actually about the topic at hand, but are actually the foundation and the framework which will help us to navigate this conversation. And so we move to Julie coming from episode two of the Transformative Marks.

Speaker 2:

Since seeing the success of the revival, because now we're at the point where face tattooing, particularly on women, is almost like it's almost a birthright active now you know, is that it's really important, that we have our say.

Speaker 2:

You know, that we actually and documented in every way we can, because in the past our proof of reason was white male history book. You know, so it's really important that we sit in the moment and we contemplate what we want our people to hear from us. You know, so I've learned to not be silent because I was also a very shy person and, you know, even though I was quite smart intellectually, I processed it and kept it to myself.

Speaker 1:

So we enter into this conversation with the words of Julie admonishing us, asking us this is the way that I perceive it anyways, as we go into this conversation, in no way do I present what I share to be a condensing of what the speaker has been talking about. It's actually the relationship that I have built with the words that are being shared, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying. When I speak to and have a conversation with those who are sharing, this is not a exposition, this is not a presentation of the truth, of the veracity of each presentation, of each speaker. It's actually the relationship that I have built with each of these phrases, each of these quotes, each of these clips. And so you know, from this clip I really take the reality that it is our responsibility to step forward and to document our work as Indigenous practitioners and also to speak about, write about, post about the reality of the work and the way that we want to position it. You know, for so long our work has been filtered through a colonial lens, and so it's time for us to take back that power, the power of representation, the power of our own knowledge, representation, the power of our own knowledge In the past, you know and continuing into the future, I will contribute to non-Indigenous scholars' work, but the reality is that it's important for us to also step forward and take up space, because it's time for us to do that work, and that is what, for me, julie is talking about because the future generations will need an archive to look back to and to understand where their current movement is coming from, and so if we don't take that opportunity to position ourselves as the true knowledge holders and knowledge keepers and the safe keepers of our own selective practices, it will do a disservice to the future generations. And so just start to document your work. If you're a current practitioner, start to document your research so that you can share it up into the future, and don't forget to do something with that stuff that you have collected. And don't forget to do something with that stuff that you have collected.

Speaker 1:

This podcast is inspired by my own journey of documenting the work that I have done and an opportunity to share some of the things that I've gathered along my journey, and so this next clip is actually the Hawaiian cacao master, kionin Unyes. This is coming from the traditional tattoo festival and we had in kohala, hawaii, in 2019. I'm thankful for the kohala institute, who, uh, helped me to go out there and to spend time in hawaii with a variety of amazing practitioners, and this quote, this clip, is actually taken from a conversation that we had at the festival and it is a panel discussion. So this clip is taken from a panel discussion that was presented at the Traditional Tattoo Festival in Kohala in 2019, and so you'll see all of the practitioners from across the world Holly's there, lane Wilkin is there, chooji is there, sarah is there.

Speaker 1:

You know there's a variety of us. Julia is there, and so you just see all of us there gathered. Jody's there. So, yeah, just a variety of us there having this conversation, presenting it, and so the audio is not the best, and you'll also notice that this was captured kind of on the fly. So the video, if you're watching on YouTube, is maybe not the best quality, but you'll get to see all of us sitting up there in the panel and yeah, so here's Keone contributing to this conversation around, positioning us for the conversation of our ancestral tools and technology and the contemporary use of electric machines.

Speaker 5:

Traditional is a colonized thought and it divides us as people. It really does, because regardless of whether or not you're using machines or you're using tools that were fashioned from the tools that your ancestors used, in essence we're doing certain things that are unique to who we are as a people. But one thing that I think that practitioners and there is a difference in my estimation between tattooists and practitioners Practitioners I would put myself in that category as a practitioner, because regular shop tattooists will not wake up at two o'clock in the morning to wake up with tools. The thought of having the designs that are appropriate for the individual may or may not occur. Some people think about that, a lot of people don't.

Speaker 5:

The making of the inks, the prayers that go along with the whole process, is not part of a shop tattoo reality, because it's a business, and so I think that when we look at ancestral ways of moving tattoos, it's encompassing all of those things, and you may not see me do any of that because you know what. That's not you guys, cool. You know that's not you guys, right, it's the cool you know of me to make sure that everything is okay by the time you come in, and when you come in, it's different. Hawaiian tattooing was the only was done by people who the only people that could spill the blood of a li'i without being killed, and so it was of a high standard, and so I think that, anyway, for me, I admire all the tattooists out there. I really do, but I'm a practitioner. I do things a little bit different, and that's not to say one is better than the other. It's not. It's just that this is the path that I walk on, and I don't expect anybody else to follow that.

Speaker 1:

So I really appreciate the words that Keone shared in this short clip. You know, two of the things that really stick out for me is that, you know, this idea of traditional is something that is a way of categorizing us as Indigenous people, and it is not helpful because it actually separates us, because we think that we have to either be traditional or we either have to be contemporary, and so we need to squash those two things back together and understand that we are traditional, we are reaching back into the ancestral past and bringing it to the present in service of the future, and when we do that, we're actually becoming whole again, and so we don't want to separate ourselves as individual practitioners, tattoo artists or ancestral skin markers, and we don't want to do that as community members, as members of our respective communities and also as members of our ancestral skin marking family. And so that's the first thing that really stuck out for me from Keone's presentation, and the second thing for me is also that you know we don't want to put down anyone, and this conversation is not meant to be this versus that, a ancestral tools and technology versus machine. It's actually to bring forward that we just need to use the right tool for the job, and each practitioner has the right to do that and to decide that on their own, free from any type of shame or judgment. And I would also say that, for me, from the perspective of a practitioner who has sat with, had conversations with people who have received you know, from sitting with people who have received work using the machine, bringing forward their ancestral patterns, designs, symbols and motifs you know they have felt a sense of shame, and so for me, it's important to bring forward this conversation specifically focused on giving space for the practitioner as they move through their journey and the revival of their ancestral tattooing, as well as to give space to those people who have received their marks. However, they have decided to go forward and to receive them.

Speaker 1:

The second thing that I really enjoy about Keone's presentation is also to say that you know this is his perspective, this is how he sees it and this is how he has decided to move forward in the work, based on the teachings he has gathered from his elders and the mentorship he has gathered from others in the Indigenous Tattoo family, and I really appreciate that. You know he gathers us all together around that circle again In our in the diversity of our opinions. It's the strength that we find. Yes, we find bonds through who we are as Indigenous people, but it's through our diversity of opinions that we find strength, opinions that we find strength. And so we're moving into uh.

Speaker 1:

So we're moving to the next clip with Nahon uh, coming from episode seven of the transformative marks podcast. Nahon is a clinkett ancestral skin marker and practitioner and we were going to actually enter into the conversation of ancestral tools and technology and uh finding the right tool for the job, and so Nahon is just going to share a little bit about his perspective of why using ancestral tools is important in this clip from Episode 7.

Speaker 3:

It's about the rhythm, it's about the pattern, it's about how our senses can allow us to step into different areas that we need for each other, for ourselves, for our community. And so what I noticed is that the hand poke and the skin stitch and the uhi, the hand tap work, ends up allowing that space. And you know, even just last night, when I was doing uhi, people were coming up and saying oh, that sounds so good. Yeah, it's like it's um, it's hypnotizing, it's um, it's therapeutic. They were coming and saying these things about just the way the, the process sounded, and they weren't even over here like watching, watching.

Speaker 1:

You know, they just heard it and so yeah, I always find it important to bring forward all perspectives on all of these subjects, so that's why I talk about the circle, and you know, I agree with Nahon that the movement and the energy, the reality of receiving ancestral marks with the ancestral tools and technology is slightly different, is a different experience. It does create an ancestral connection through the practice of doing the work as opposed to the wearing of the work. You know, I'm not really trying to demarcate or break those things apart, but just for the in the interest of this conversation, it's interesting to think about the practice of it and what that provides to us as descendants of our ancestors. I know Keone I never put it in this clip in here, but Keone talks about it as a time machine that brings you back 100, 200, 300 years and you actually are experiencing the things that your ancestors went through, which is a powerful experience, and so I think it's important for us to acknowledge that receiving our ancestral skin marking through the use of ancestral tools and technology has an extreme value for us as ancestral ancestors, as descendants of our ancestors, and so we go to Keone here, and so this comes from 2020.

Speaker 1:

I was in Hawaii with Keone and his students learning how to make bone tools, and so I always love bringing up that. You know, when I think about and I position myself in the revival of infacotmok tattooing, it actually starts with, I would say uh, the movement to uh stitching and hand poking myself. You know, I've positioned my the beginning of infacot McTattoo Revival in 2012, when I sat down in the tattoo shop that I was working at and skin stitched and hand poked my own leg, even though, you know, a year or two prior to that, I was starting that research of finding our design symbols and motifs, finding the little booklet Tattooing, face and Body Painting of the Thompson Indians which records our ancestral tattooing. But you know, I always positioned the revival starting in 2012. And I think about that is a very interesting reality for me because I think it's when I really decided that I was going to consciously go about the work of reviving intakamuk tattooing.

Speaker 1:

And in 2020, I went to Hawaii to learn how to construct bone needles.

Speaker 1:

Specifically, when I was there, I was focusing on the creation of bone skin stitch needles the creation of bone skin stitch needles because I didn't go to Hawaii to learn how to make the ancestral combs, the ancestral tools of the Hawaiians or the Pacific Islands.

Speaker 1:

I went there to learn how to make bone tools that my ancestors would have used, and so, because the Hawaiians had been creating these bone tools for quite a length of time and become very proficient at it, I went there to gain some mentorship, through Keone and his students, on how they work with the bone tools, and that trip was sponsored by the Canada Council for the Arts. So again I'm thankful for that support as I have moved through this work of the revival of Intricamuk tattooing. And so when I was there, I asked Keone to do an interview with me, and you can tell through the noise in this recording that we were outside and it was pretty windy. And you know this was still at the beginning of my journey of recording video and audio, so the audio is not the best in this, but I hope you will forgive that and enjoy the words. Listen to the words that Keone has to share about his perspective related to ancestral tools and technology.

Speaker 4:

He told me you know, for us these are sacred designs. So why would we let a machine, developed by the same people that tried to kill us, take away our land, leave our women and daughters determine how native we are? And that stuck with me. That stuck with me real deep, and I think that that's true for the most part, and that's why I felt good about my decision never to pick up electric tools anymore.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, yeah, that's why and so, uh, you can hear at the end of uh this clip, kione says and that's why because I specifically asked kione, you know, why is it important for you to use uh ancestral tools and technology in your practice? And so Keone was answering that question through telling of a story while he went to visit I believe it was in California, and the elder there shared with him this quote of well, why would I use a machine created by, a machine created by the people who killed our ancestors and raped and destroyed our community and our cultures and our families? And it's a very well taken point. And I you know for a long time this quote and this idea, because I've I encountered this uh, this idea, through Keone uh, a long time before this conversation, because he shared it in a variety of places and other interviews. And, very specifically, I think I first encountered it in a documentary film uh created I think it was called Skin Stories uh, that featured Keone in there and he shared this quote. And so it really impacted me and pushed me to learn all that I could about our ancestral tools and technology. And it's been through that journey of going into, reaching into the past, reaching into that ancestral knowledge, remembering my connection with my ancestors and bringing it to the present, that I have decided that I will incorporate it into my practice as a ancestral skin marker, a contemporary Inthakamuk ancestral skin marker, ancestral Skin Marker who uses ancestral tools and technology alongside electric tattoo machines. We're going to continue this conversation, but I think it's important to bring this forward, and I would also say that the reality is that this quote continues to influence my practice. Quote continues to influence my practice because when people come to me to ask for face tattoos, specifically ancestral marks, I don't use machine on the face. And so you know, if somebody comes to me for a chin tattoo, a face tattoo, you know, along the cheeks, the temples, whatever it is, it will either be with hand poke or skin stitch, because I think that for me, that's the decision that I have made. That is related to this quote from Keone, and I think it is true that especially those marks that we wear on our face definitely speak to who we are in a powerful way as intercom or indigenous people, and so I only use hand poke and skin stitch, those ancestral tools and technology, when I'm marking the face.

Speaker 1:

Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. To the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air.

Speaker 1:

Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. The next quote goes back to episode 14 with Q Q Bidwa, a Maori practitioner, moko practitioner, and he shares his feelings around the ancestral tools and technology.

Speaker 6:

You know, I was talking to you before and talking about what Keone said to us in 2018, I think it was and Keone sat down while we were drinking kava and he says Maori, you've lost your songs, you've lost your waiata. You know where's the sound of the tapping? And, as I was sitting in the māki today working away, the best sound I could hear in that whole tent was the tapping of the saumons, you know, and Keone was right we've lost that song.

Speaker 6:

We've got only a handful of people who are tapping at the moment within Aotearoa.

Speaker 1:

It's a beautiful thought and it sparked something really important for me Also helps to shift my perspective a little bit when I think about this is that it is important for us to pick up our ancestral tools and technology because that is part of the resurgence of our cultures and our communities, that is, these ancestral tools and technologies as practiced by our ancestors, is part of returning us to the robustness of our culture and our community, and I love how he positions it in the word coming from the words of Keone, in terms of this is a song. You know Keone talks about this, the tapping being a whisper of the ancestors. And so, when I think about this, it's really important for us to continue to revive all of our ancestral practices, and that includes the use of ancestral tools and technology. So reaching back and bringing forward our skin stitching, our hand poking, our tapping, our hammering, as Mo talks about the revival of Naga tattooing. And so when I think about that, it's important for us to include all of the songs that we can, to gather as many of the songs from our cultures and our communities, to bring a cultural bundle together that helps us to have strength and resilience as we move into the future. And so, yes, it is important for us to have our ancestral tools and technology to add to our tool belt, and I always, you know, the reason I position this conversation around the right tool for the job is that you know we need the right tool for the job, and that could be a machine, that could be a uhi, that could be a hand poke or a skin stitch needle, it could be a uhi, that could be a? Um, a hand poke or a skin stitch needle, it could be a metal needle, it could be a bone needle. All of those things are in there and it's just about reaching for the proper tool, uh, for the job that we're going into.

Speaker 1:

And if we don't have all of those tools that are, uh, at our, at the to reach to, you know that that makes it a little bit more difficult to do the job in the way that it needs to be done. And I can totally understand as well when I think about this work is that the machine, in some ways and in some cases, is really seductive. This is really seductive, you know, because it is so quick. Sometimes we don't give enough space to our ancestral tools and their ancestors used or how to do it in an efficient way or have never been shown that practice, and so giving space and grace for those who are beginning their journey, as well as opening up space for those who have received their marks using machine, and so giving, allowing space for those people who may feel a sense of shame or guilt for not being handpoked or skin stitched or tapped.

Speaker 1:

But I think you know, all of those things are tools that we need for our journey, so we, so we're just going into this next clip by Nahon, coming from his episode of the transformative marks podcast, again looking at Nahon's perspective on the use of ancestral tools, and so when I first started tattooing, the tools that I had at the time was a coil machine, and then after that, I moved to a rotary and I worked with those tools from 2009 all the way until 2000,.

Speaker 3:

I it was 18. I used machines and I had tried out hand poke a handful of times, but that was it um. An interesting part of this is I had asked um some song composers from my father's people to create me a tattooing song, so I knew that I needed to do that part of the process for the people I was marking and that vibration comes from a specific place and it lands in a specific place and that can be medicinal for our people, and not even just our people, but for everybody yeah and so I knew doing that work that was part of my job.

Speaker 3:

Nobody ever told me that, but I knew that's what it was and the song would help me to do that. I prayed about it myself to get my own song and nothing came. Shortly after doing my first tattoo with hand poke, I went up to niska territory and simsian territory and was getting some work done by nakita and you know, during that time I'd heard a song and it was the process uh, uh.

Speaker 3:

It was came at the time when there's four parts of that song, for uh starts to that song, and each one is for the directions, and so it's to call our relatives around us from our ancestral plane and um to just to say hey, be here, witness this. You know so every time that we, we do it, we know what we're doing, we know the weight of it, and so it's to honor that weight and um. So since that point, I realized well that song didn't come until I started doing hand poke, and when I started working with hand poke a lot more and focusing just on that, as we've come through.

Speaker 1:

This clip related to Nahon's perspective on the use of ancestral tools.

Speaker 1:

He brings forward something really interesting and important to consider that in his experience, the composition or the gifting of a song to him from the ancestors didn't actually come until he made the move to using ancestral tools and technology, and so there is something very powerful that comes from using those ancestral tools and technology and, yeah, just a powerful statement about the revival of our ancestors' knowledges as we move into this contemporary time knowledges as we move into this contemporary time.

Speaker 1:

In my own practice, a lot of times I will use machine and hand poke or skin stitch. Sometimes I know that there's a little bit of a stitch that needs to go into a bodysuit that I'm working on, and so I'll offer that to the person that I'm doing that work for. Sometimes we just go with the machine because they're not totally hip to the stitch or whatever, which I totally honor. That that's each person's right to give consent to what they accept into their space and the work that's being done on them. But yeah, just pretty cool to be able to present these variety of perspectives as we move through this conversation around the right tool for the job. The next clip comes from episode 10 with the Tongan and Sami practitioner, terry Kolomatangi, and so we're just going to listen and hear what Terry has to say around this topic of ancestral tools and technology.

Speaker 7:

You know, like I touched on earlier, my, my very first um I guess my first schooling around the practice was seeing those tools side by side, being used side by side on traditional work yeah you know. So that's so from from the very beginning. I I didn't, you know that sense of some type of hierarchy around tools, for example, never was just not a thing. Yeah, it wasn't part of that initial conversation right yeah, um, and I think you know, for me personally, I I carry that forward like I I.

Speaker 7:

I see the tools as being all, the tools as being important yeah you know, because they allow us to do the thing which is, I feel, the most important thing. Yeah, is the marking, yeah, and the process around the marking, yeah, you know, um, and I think it's for me, my and this is just my thinking I think it's important that we don't get um, we don't, uh, restrict ourselves by getting caught up in the conversation around. Well, if it's not done with this tool, in this way, it's not authentic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I really appreciate this framing of Terry around. The most important thing is actually the marking People receiving their marks is what's the most important part of this equation. And I really think back to what my friend Gordon Sparks talks about in terms of the use of rifles in our subsistence lifestyle, as an example of our ancestors, you know, coming forward and taking on the new technology to help them, to support them in the movement of their own work. And then I would also say, you know, thinking about some of the places that I have been, that I've been gifted the opportunity to visit, one of them being Te Papa, the National Museum in Aotearoa, nahon, and I got to visit there and we were shown a rack of tools, an ancestral Maori moko kit, and on one half it had the chisels that were used in applying moko, that were created with bone, and then on the other half of that kit was the same set of tools, the same set of chisels, but made in metal. And I always think about this as well in terms of the movement of our cultures forward. You know, I think about the painting of our clothing with ochre and then the movement from that to embroidery and beadwork, and so the movement and the adoption of new technologies is not something to be frowned upon. It's something to be embraced as we move forward and not to think less of your practice as an ancestral skin marker if you are using machine and not using the ancestral tools and technology.

Speaker 1:

We are contemporary people, allowed to evolve in our practices and we are allowed to choose which tool is the right tool for us as a practitioner. Which tool is the right tool for us as a practitioner? And I'm just presenting this conversation because I think it's interesting. I find it interesting as well as something that I have thought a lot about. And so, yeah, just bringing it forward so that you can have a variety of perspectives and allow yourself to make that decision and allow yourself to make that decision. Maybe you decide to go to strictly using ancestral tools and technology, and I fully support you in that decision. Or maybe you decide to go fully to using machine, and I fully support that decision. Or you may come to the middle of where I'm at and decide to use both. I'm at and decide to use both.

Speaker 1:

I just want to open this up so people can find the freedom to make those decisions for their own practice, and I think I agree with Terry when he says it's actually the marks that's actually important and somebody receiving those marks and wearing those marks and embodying the marks of their ancestors that is actually key to the whole equation. And embodying the marks of their ancestors that is actually key to the whole equation. And this positionality of ancestral tools and choosing the right tool of the job is actually peripheral to people receiving their marks. And so we're going again to Julie Pama Pangeli, and in this case this is a clip from an interview I did with Julie related to a documentary film I'm working on, inspired by the True Tribal exhibition that I curated at the Museum of Vancouver in collaboration with and co-curated with Mireille Bourgeois of the Iota Institute, with Mireille Bourgeois of the Iota Institute. But we're going into this clip from Julie talking about ancestral tools and technology and the right tool for the job.

Speaker 2:

Even at the very essential level, that we were tribal, that we're different. We have different stories in different regions and different families. There's room for practices in all different ways and we will take whatever suits us best to create that commune between meaning, our atua, our people going forward, the generations that can understand it and accept it. You know all those versions of ourselves. The strong ones will follow through and that's what's happened with the machine. It is our authentic selves.

Speaker 1:

I really appreciate this sentiment and the way that I interpret it, the way that I understand it and the way that I have built a relationship with this clip and the words that are contained in it is that our authentic selves, our most authentic selves as Nthukamukw people, indigenous people, are the people who are here today because we're the ones who are living in this current time and space and in this current existence, this current reality, and so take that to heart.

Speaker 1:

You know you are the most authentic because you are the one who is here. So do the work that you need to do in the way that you need to do it, and don't feel any type of anything about nothing except for joy in bringing your ancestors' marks into the world on the bodies of your community and the bodies of your members of your community, as well as those you choose to gift the responsibility of wearing them. Such a beautiful sentiment from Julie related to the use of ancestral tools and technology, and so we go back again to episode 10, with Terry Kolomatangi talking about the use of ancestral tools and technology and the contemporary movement in the revival of indigenous tattooing.

Speaker 7:

If you think about all the moko kauwa and all the kanohi that are walking around, that are becoming so just normal now, right, yeah, you know, if we take that sort of stance, that, oh, it's not done with the uhi, with the hand tools, it's not authentic or traditional or the real thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 7:

Then, yeah, like you say, we're just kind of dismissing all that work all that whakapapa, all that genealogy, all the mana of those people and their ancestors, who are we to do that?

Speaker 1:

Powerful example coming from the experience of Terry living in Aotearoa, doing work and living with and having colleagues who are from the Maori people. You know, this is an example that I have thought of myself in terms of what do we do when we say that the only authentic practice of indigenous tattooing, or the only authentic way of doing the work of the revival of indigenous tattooing or the work of intacotmoc tattooing, is through hand poke and skin stitch, we actually erase all of the marks that I gave prior to the uptaking of my ancestral tools and technology of hand poke and skin stitch. You know, we negate, as Terry says in this clip, the mana of those people and I don't think that that is what we are trying to do. We're just opening up a conversation to say that all of those things are valid, all of those things are authentic because you are the descendants of your ancestors and it's just that simple. Whatever marks, however you choose to embody them, is irrelevant to the fact that you have decided to pick up those marks and to represent the resilience and the brilliance and the power of your people. So yeah, just a a cool thought experiment about what are the consequences of the way that we frame these conversations and I think that's what I'm really trying to bring forward here is not necessarily to talk down or to talk around anyone's perspective, but just sharing my own perspective and giving us an opportunity to question how we frame these conversations as we move into the world, as people look up to us as thought leaders.

Speaker 1:

I'm certainly a very imperfect thought leader. I'm a very imperfect human being just doing the best that I can. And that's why I always call myself a born again coyote, because, yeah, I've done some stupid shit in the past and I've been recreated to my current form, and I know that I will do more stupid shit in the future, which will necessitate the revival of my spirit through the songs of my families, my friends, my colleagues and my community. And so we move into the thoughts of Julie Poma Pengelli again, this time coming from episode two way back in the beginning of this year, in January. I can't believe, believe again that we're at episode 50 and we're going to be moving into season two here shortly.

Speaker 2:

Um, here's julie and I teach my students to do it too is to process information and the reality of everything you know and continue to reevaluate it. Don Don't get caught into saying what mainstream like to say about us is everyone did this or everyone did that Because it never has been valid. We've been tribes forever, we've been creatives forever, and so we're not a moment in time, we're an evolution. So keep locating yourself and challenging yourself in that. Don't throw back those same old stereotypes.

Speaker 1:

I really enjoy this clip from Julie, who's really helping us to think about why this conversation is important way. The only way to do the work of our, the revival of our community's tattoo practices, our community's skin marking practices is a very colonial perspective which says that we don't have the right to evolve as a community, as a culture. We don't have the right to progress in our knowledge and in our understanding and our use of the gifts from creation, from Mother Earth, and the way that we need them to do the things that we need to as we move forward. And I think that it's also important to acknowledge that sometimes the use of our ancestral tools and technology help us to reconnect back to our ancestors in a powerful way, in a similar way to just receiving the marks, wearing the marks in the world and being recognized as who you are. But you know, we need to allow for the evolution and the movement of ourselves through time and space as a community and a culture.

Speaker 1:

And I always look back and I think back I've probably mentioned it before in the land claims not agreements, but the land claims court cases that have went forward through the courts, with the Dalgamu and also with the Stilkoteen case, etc.

Speaker 1:

Those court cases that people had to bring forward and prove that their practices looked like their ancestors' practices so that they could define their current and contemporary culture was the same as the past culture, which is to say that we are supposed to stay that way, and that's what the colonizer actually wants, is they want us to stay in the past and not move into the present, because that's the way that they have positioned their legal system to take our communities, our cultures, our lands and to destroy us from existence.

Speaker 1:

And so this is actually a form of resistance of that positionality that says that for us to exist as contemporary, intercontinental people, indigenous people, in the current time and to have the rights that our ancestors have gifted us and that we have inherited from our ancestors, that we have to look like our cultures, have to look like our ancestors cultures, which is a falsity and is, you know, an idiotic way of thinking, I would say, especially coming from the court system, and so we need to resist those things and all the ways that they come forward and the way that they trickle into our practices as well. All right, we are coming to Nolan Mulboff, a Métis practitioner, and this is a conversation I had with Nolan related to the True Tribal documentary film that I'm working on, and so that'll be coming out, hopefully next year, so keep your eyes peeled for that. I may give some teasers in my Ko-Fi membership page, so keep an eye out for that. If you're over there supporting me on a monthly subscription, nolan shares here from the True Tribal interview.

Speaker 8:

Ah, people, not tools. People Without a second thought, outside of every conversation and there haven't been many, it's people. See, I come from a place where I question where I belong, I'm a mix it, and I would always say well, it's not about that skin, man, it's about the heart, you know, it's about these things that you've been taught in here, that you take with you, and that's what I see, traditional as it. It's not about the tools, it's about the person wielding the tools.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, powerful, powerful thought coming from Nolan in relationship to this question of, you know, choosing the right tool for the job, and Nolan says that it's actually about the people Number one, the people receiving the marks, and also number two, the person wielding that tool. That's actually most important. And so, yeah, just a beautiful thought. I wanted to share that as we wind out this conversation and we're going to go to our last clip here with Keith Callahoo coming from episode nine, I'm stoked to be able to share Keith and as we begin to wind down this conversation.

Speaker 8:

A person getting their markings is what's important Exactly, and I'm learning that each day. It's kind of like a mantra yeah, not to shame someone how they, not to shame someone how they got their markings.

Speaker 1:

This is actually the crux of this conversation for me, because I've had too many conversations with people who feel a sense of shame or guilt or feel like their marks are less than those who have received their marks using ancestral tools and technology, and so I wanted to bring forward this conversation to give freedom to those who have received the marks in the way that they have received them and to honor the fact that they made the choice to wear their ancestral marks. Because I think that is actually what's most important and as I look through and I reflect on each speaker's thoughts, feelings and emotions is that everyone sees the reality that the marks is the most important thing and that each of us, as practitioners, has the freedom to choose the right tool for the job and to do the work that we need to for our communities in the way that we need them to. And I think that it's important for us to allow that freedom and that respect, as I think back to Keone's comment in that uh, you know, second clip uh, keone says I have respect for all of those artists who are out there, all of those practitioners, uh, who are out there doing the work in the way that they need to do it, and so I think that's what's most important and key. That I'm bringing forward from this is that we just have to respect each other and we have to honor each other's choices and decisions and to leave the freedom for our community to embody the marks that they need to embody in the way that they need to embody them, and so that's what this conversation is about them, and so that's what this conversation is about. I hope you've been able to find a little bit of a gem from each person and take the gems that you need for your toolkit as you walk the journey of revival as a ancestral skin marker, cultural tattoo practitioner or professional tattoo artist.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, just leaving that freedom for each of us to choose the right tool for the job that we need to do for our communities and cultures, leaving space for people who are in the beginning of their journey and also for those people who maybe have limited access to practitioners and I think that that's really what it's about for me is just allowing everyone to embody the marks of their ancestors in the way that they need to. In some ways, there is a lot of value of taking that journey to find the practitioner that you need, and sometimes that's going to Hawaii, sometimes that's going to New Zealand or Samoa to receive the marks that you need, and I think there is such a power there as well. You know, when you think about going back to your ancestral territory, you know there is an extra experience there, in the same way that receiving your marks using ancestral tools and technology is another powerful experience, another level of intimacy and another level of connection that maybe you might not receive when you're using the machine, and I would argue, in some cases that is true that the use of ancestral tools and technology maybe is a different song that will sing to your heart in the way that it needs to. But the reality is, for me, when I think about this topic, it's wearing the marks and receiving the marks it's most important, not necessarily the way that you receive them. So, as you go out into the world, I hope you enjoy your day wherever you are, whenever you're listening to this, and take it to heart that the work that you're doing is powerful, is beautiful and is exactly what your people need to move forward into the next phase of your community's resurgence. And thank you for listening. Hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you.

Speaker 1:

Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.

Speaker 1:

Heading over to next week's episode, we'll be talking to Mo Naga about the revival of Naga tattooing. This was a interview that I did virtually with Mo for the documentary film and for the exhibition True Tribal that opened in the Museum of Vancouver in March of 2024. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go visit Mo in person. However, this conversation is packed with some powerful insights and some beautiful knowledge. So head on over to next week's episode and listen to Mo talk about the revival of Naga tattooing Indigenous people from the northeastern part of India. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.