Transformative Marks Podcast

Tattooing the Past into the Future: Mo Naga and the Revival of Naga Tattooing and the Resurgence of Tattoos of India

• Dion Kaszas and Mo Naga • Episode 51

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#051 Discover the inspiring journey of Mo Naga as he leads a cultural renaissance, reviving Naga tattoo practices that echo his ancestors' stories. Mo takes us on his 15-year exploration to reclaim the lost tattoo heritage of the Naga tribe in Manipur. Witness how Mo navigates the complex landscape of cultural preservation, facing challenges like elder reluctance and societal displacement, all to ensure the vibrancy of Indian tattooing for future generations.

Join us as we illuminate the rich tapestry of Indigenous tattoo culture in India, from traditional handpoking to the sacred Naga method of hand tapping. Experience the transformative power of ancestral visual language in personal artistic expression, and gain insights from past guests on how these artistic elements can enrich your own creative journey. This episode promises a profound look into the artistry and significance of these practices, offering a tribute to the resilience and beauty of cultural heritage. Whether you're a tattoo enthusiast or curious about the deep cultural roots behind these traditions, this conversation offers inspiration and learning at every turn.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

You can find Mo at:
Instagram @headhuntersink

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, the IOTA Institute and the Museum of Vancouver. 

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Speaker 1:

Violence like this, when it prevails. You know people cannot think about art, people cannot think about culture. You know People are under survival mode. You know it takes them back in time.

Speaker 2:

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.

Speaker 1:

I'm Monaga, I'm from Manipur, I belong to a Naga tribe called Khoibu I yeah, what else do I say? We are located in the easternmost area of India, bordering Myanmar, and the Naga people are spread across across into the Myanmar side as well. So for the past 14-15 years I've been researching, working and trying to salvage whatever is left about our tattoo culture and different cultural practices of my people.

Speaker 2:

I guess that gets me into my next question. You know it's always interesting. People go oh, I'm not sure how to do that, but I think you did a really good job. So I guess the next one is like your history, or the story of how you got into this work of research and then also into the tattooing part.

Speaker 1:

So tell me how, uh, you know when did you start, what was your inspiration and you know, uh, that kind of journey of how you started working in tattooing it went back very far from the time when I was a young child seeing my parents, my relatives, hearing about my grandfather, all of them who have given a lot of their time effort. My father is a local linguist. My grandfather was the commander-in-chief of Manipur Maharaj and he was a very powerful shaman. My uncle worked for the Naga people and so from a very young age I have been seeing my family members' dedication towards the service to my people and growing up I wanted to study design and to contribute through art and design of our people, through art and design of our people. But all this while I never knew about tattoos, you know, because about 60, 70 years ago we stopped tattooing. So I never saw any elders tattoo, neither heard any elders speak about tattoos, and it was even in our cultural festivals. I did not see them. So I had absolutely no idea about the rich tattoo tradition that we inherit or rather are losing now.

Speaker 1:

But in the first year of my college, as exploration, me and my friends picked up tattooing. We went and bought, you know, at that time, not knowing what tattoo machine or what you know, we just went, bought a tattoo kit, came back to our hostel and there were three of my friends waiting to get tattooed, and that's how my journey started. But it was in the beginning. It was never about the Naga tattoo, it was just a medium of art, something that I was curious about. And for the next three years into my college, I was just tattooing my friends and gradually started tattooing people outside college. And at the end of college I was my final collection, my design collection I wanted to do based on our cultural expressions, you know, through textiles and our symbols. And while researching for that, I came across one photo of an old Naga man with a face tattoo, and that changed everything for me, because I was already tattooing for three and a half years.

Speaker 1:

And now I see this on Google and that was 2007. And I became curious. I started searching and I could not get any information. Back then. It was new for us here in India. There were no YouTube, there were nothing you know.

Speaker 1:

So my curiosity started from there and somehow I happened to be looking for it at the right time, because it was around that time when various universities started compiling and making all the archives, historical manuscripts accessible to the people through the digital archival, and I started going through those and that is how the journey started, and the more I went, the more I realized that it's going to be a long journey. In the beginning I gave myself five years. I thought I will give myself five years. I will study about this art and I will try to create a movement, make my people realize how important it is. And it's been almost 15 years now. Almost 15 years now, and at this point I for sure know that it is not. It's a lifelong. You know, it's a lifelong work. That's how this journey has been. That's how it started. I never set out to be a tattoo artist. Even while I was tattooing in college, I did not think of it as something that I was going to pursue further.

Speaker 2:

And here I am, 15, almost 20 years, 15 years down the line, I'm still doing the work yeah, a lot longer. That that is a you know, a common, a common idea, you know, or a common theme that has come up that it's really there is so much education that is necessary for our communities really to understand. You know, you know, in my own experience, some of the elders were like no, we didn't tattoo. And then I know, you know, I was talking with Julie, who's Mari, and she was saying, you know, the elders were like no, that belongs back there. You know, so it's like a lot of education for community as well as just doing the work. So I think that's a common theme that has come up throughout my conversation.

Speaker 2:

The next question is really to get a sense of what's happening in your community. You know you've been displaced, your family hasn't been able to be in your home, and so I just want you to give us, or let me know, or tell me, you know what's been happening, why you know part of the reason why we weren't able to come and visit with you, so we can have a historical context, because I think it is important to highlight the modern world, I suppose, or in the world today, because a lot of people think that it's not in their awareness that Indigenous people are still suppressed in a variety of ways. In a variety of ways, and also to give context to the conversation of the little documentary that I'll be putting together of the reason why I'm not able to be there. So I'll just ask you if you're comfortable to share what's happening for you and your community.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's been almost a year we have been planning working to meet. It's very disappointing that year we have been planning working to meet. Very disappointing that we could not do so. But yeah, there's a lot happening in Manipur right now, in the northeastern part of India, there is communal ethnic violence the kind that we have not seen in decades. My families were all displaced. I could not come back for five, six months.

Speaker 1:

I was traveling, working, and violence like this that disrupts our lives, it's not something that is uncommon to us. It's been like this for a very, very long time. However, for a brief couple of decades, peace was slowly arriving and that is what gave us opportunity to study, to go out and grow our interest and work towards the study of our culture, or people, or art. You know our history, but violence like this, when it prevails, you know people cannot think about art, people cannot think about culture. You know People are under survival mode. You know it takes them back in time. It makes us realize even more so how important it is for us to know about our root, our culture, our expressions, to protect our land. You know, and as an artist using art to send message, it has already been difficult for me because the Nagas I don't know if you are aware, but we are about 95% of the Nagas are Christians and the churches are very powerful, and so the work that I'm trying to do trying to bring back, revive the tattoos or study about it or try to emphasize the significance even about knowing what these tattoos mean to us you know, has already been so difficult, but when violence like this comes in, it's almost like it's unthinkable For me to be in my village and to think about art at this point of time. I can't, because we are thinking about our survival. We are thinking where is the next violence? Where is the next attack? Who is going to get harmed, you know?

Speaker 1:

So what I'm trying to say is for a long time, you know, for 60, 70 years now, we have lived under such circumstances where our art or cultural expressions have been suppressed through such violence that the art, the culture, the expression has taken a backseat. It has taken a backseat and what people are trying to do is trying to emulate the so-called Western culture, trying to compete, trying to catch up. To be trying to compete, trying to catch up, uh, uh, leaving behind completely, uh, unattended, uh, all the information, the knowledge of our ancestors, uh, not just that, but also physically moving out. You know, wardens like this force people out of their land and personally, yeah, for seven months I was outside. I could not come back. My family were all scattered.

Speaker 1:

You know, after seven months, we have all come together now and we are trying to slowly find our ground again, but that is what's happening here. Hundreds of people have lost their lives, thousands of homes have been lost, and it's a horrible time once again, and that makes my work a lot more difficult, because now the focus is trying to gather life together again. You know. So I think, at this time, art design, it's, it is, uh, it is something which, uh, uh, which is a luxury. You know, it is not like how it was back in the day, where it was part of life, of everyday life. You know, lifestyle has changed. Uh, uh, the true globalization. You know, we are part of the global world and, uh, where does all this art stand?

Speaker 2:

you know, and, uh, that is what is difficult right now for me even more yeah, thank you for sharing that and, uh, you know, I do acknowledge that, uh, that question was a bit difficult to navigate, just because of the reality that it's not just a concept, it is a reality of your experience of being displaced and not having your family with you. So I acknowledge that you know that was a difficult question and I appreciate you exploring that with me. So, yeah, I just wanted to say that to you, that I appreciate that you share that difficult thing with me and I would also say that you know it's similar in many places. That Christian church you know is such a difficult thing to work through in terms of the, you know, the reality of our revival movements all across the world.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I would say that you know that is another, I guess, theme of the work that we're doing and I would probably argue you know I mentioned earlier that you know some elders were like no, that stays back in the past, and I would argue that many of those elders are the elders that have been Christianized for us through residential school and etc. So, yeah, that's another common thing I would say. So you do you practice, you know you said that you started with machine, you know, with your buddies back in the day. And then you're moving to what was the decision to go into hand poke, and do you still do machine and hand poke?

Speaker 1:

I do hand poke, machine tapping and hammering, that's what we call it. I do them all. I started with machine but later on, with time, I realized it is not just an art, you know, that needs to be revived or that needs to be studied to understand. Because when we talk about indigenous expression, when we talk about indigenous art, you know I don't look at it just as of the people. You know, I look at it as a whole ecosystem. You know, like the plants, the animals, you know the birds, the land, the river, all of this. The birds are indigenous as much as we are to that land. You know the animals are indigenous as much as.

Speaker 1:

So the study, my study, went beyond tattoos. So my study involves the textiles, the handicraft, the folklores, the folktales. You know knowledge about the animals and the birds and the plants. So in this I'm also trying to create something called the tattoo garden where I'm trying to bring in different plants from different tribes across northeast. So we have around so far I have recorded and I've been studying, uh, more than 25 tribes, uh, in the Indian side, and I'm trying to bring all those different plants that are used by these tribes in one place because, just like how the art and the stories are disappearing, these plants are also disappearing. Because those thorny plants have no use, have lost its significance, just like the art, and people don't want them in their field anymore, so they are slowly being eradicated their field anymore, so they are slowly being eradicated.

Speaker 1:

And this, like hearing the songs about those plants. You know it's quite sad, because if you want to understand the wholesome expression through tattoos, we also need to understand the plants and not just the motifs. Where it comes from. You know the mediums as well.

Speaker 1:

So I am trying to create a place called the Tattoo Village in my native land, in my ancestral land, and the Tattoo Village, where all these plants are brought together, a place where I plan to keep information, a place where I can collaborate, share, exchange and take it forward, because there are more than 60 Naga tribes and so far I have recorded about more than 20 tribes and not a single tribe is tattooing anymore. And so all that I can do right now, as I advocate and as I continue my effort to spread awareness in the meantime, what I'm doing is to try to keep information, to bring them in one place, so that, in the meantime, what I'm doing is to try to keep information, to bring them in one place so that in the future, whenever somebody from the tribe is interested, it is accessible. It is in one place and the past six years I've been navigating with the church, with the elders, and finally it's all coming together slowly now.

Speaker 2:

That's a powerful uh thing that you're doing.

Speaker 2:

It's like a cultural library, right? You know, uh, you know when I say that it's not just books, it's the, the uh plants, like you're saying, the inspirational plants that are being pushed out because of you know that, uh, that, like you say, that globalization, that capitalist system of, like, let's replant with just one field, I imagine, and that's why you don't want those native plants there, right? So that's a powerful work that you're doing. So I hold you up in that and you know it's quite inspirational that work that you're doing. So I hold you up in that and you know it's quite inspirational that work that you're doing. So, you know, I think it is a valuable lesson for us and those who will be watching this and hearing about your work. How important that work that you're doing is is not just to look at the, like you say, the textiles, those things that are in museums or that are captured in the books, but actually going out onto the land and gathering as much of that knowledge as possible from all of the ways that it comes from.

Speaker 1:

So that's a pretty inspirational thing that you're doing there, yeah, so, yes, just to add on to this, to answer to your previous question. So, while studying this, I also realized that, you know, it would be even more meaningful if the art of tattooing through this natural thorns and the pigments that comes from the land, from the place, because every tribe uses different thorns and different plants right, so it makes sense for me. However, for many years, I did not try, try it. I wanted to honor it and I wanted to receive a tattoo from a traditional uh artist, you know, and uh, which took me another four years to convince you know so. But luckily, uh one, uh one elder, a queen from a tribe you know, from a village, who was a tattooer, was 82 years old in 2015. She finally agreed to tattoo me and my friend because she did the tattoo to us in just the way how it was done 60, 70 years ago, and she picked up the tools for the first time after 60 years. So that whole experience was so powerful and that was when I decided that, you know, I have to keep this practice sacred, something that perhaps the world can aspire to experience, but I wanted to keep it in the hills, in the land, in the place where it is practiced. So I started tapping in the hills, in the land, in the place where it is practiced, you know. So I started tapping. However, till now I have only done tapping for documentary shoots, exhibitions and things like that.

Speaker 1:

But while in the meantime I am also concerned about the tattoo culture of India as a whole, because India has a very diverse tattoo culture and across North, south, east, west and Northeast is just a small little portion. So my study has also been touching communities across India. However, along the way I realized that this is not one man's job. This is something that the system, the government, the institution must take up and I must just focus on whatever I can In my lifetime. If I can do something significant for the Nagas, that would be a big achievement.

Speaker 1:

So out of this concern, I started handpoking, because nobody was talking about the Indian tattoos, because away from the Naga and the Northeastern communities all around India, the technique is handpoking. So I wanted to keep that conversation alive, create curiosity to more people across India, and I would say that that has done considerable changes, because there are quite a lot of hand poke artists now across India. But when it comes to the Nagas, our main technique of tattooing is hand tapping and hammering a little bit of poking, but that's how I moved from machine to hand poke, to tapping, but I do all three of them.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like the way that I talk about that, because we do skin stitching stitching so with a needle and thread, and then hand poke, and then I also use machine and I always say you know, it's just, uh, we use the right tool for the job, is the way that I describe that. But, uh, yeah, when you think about it, what is what makes you decide which tool you're going to use, like when you go to do that work? Is what makes you decide, oh, I'm doing machine or I'm doing hand poke, or I'm hammering which? You know what? What, uh, what helps you to make that decision?

Speaker 2:

Hey, there, listeners, it's dion kazis, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air Plus. Ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Hand poking. So I have done like full sleeves. Hand poke Takes me four days, sometimes five days. It's uh very physically draining and uh, some people really like to go through the process. You know, uh, it's, they find it uh very, uh, very special and uh, going through that journey uh, however, it's not for everybody, you know. Like you say, you know, uh, some people go for that experience, some people go for the art. Uh, some people go for different reasons, so according to their reasons. But, however, whenever somebody requests for a big piece of handbook uh tattoo, I always give them the options that I can always do it with machine or, if you choose. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they mix it up because they also want to experience hand poking. But sometimes some people just want to go through the process, hand poking, which is fine To me, because the reason why I picked up handpoking was to spread awareness about Indian tattoo culture.

Speaker 1:

But the main practice that I am trying to pursue and I'm working towards is revival of Naga tattoos, and Naga tattoos is hand tapping, and when we say hand tapping we use thorns, right different thorns. So I, till now, I have kept it very guarded. I have not entertained People have been waiting for seven, eight years to get a hand tap like that from me from different parts of the world, to get a hand tap like that from me from different parts of the world. But I have not entertained any person to uh uh to that technique. So that part for me is very sacred and I want to practice that in my village, in the tattoo village. I want people to appreciate it in the, in a wholesome. I want them to see the plants where it comes from. I want them to see where, which landscape, where it comes from, who are the people. I don't want that. I don't want to do that in a city, in a foreign land. So I choose my technique like that. I'm very flexible.

Speaker 1:

Otherwise, hand poke or machine, yeah, because the way I tattoo, there is a long process of consultation and through the consultation I'm talking about my people, the philosophies of my elders, our way of life, the aesthetics of our expressions. The aesthetics of our expressions. And at this point of time, for me, at this stage of my work, it doesn't really matter to me whether it is handbook or machine, as long as I am able to send the message out, because eventually, what I'm trying to do is to inspire my people back at home to pick up the tools to start studying about the art. You know, because sometimes people say, people talk about appropriation, sometimes people talk about a lot of things, you know, but what I do, it comes through a lot of research and I'm trying to find a very narrow space, you know, where I am also sharing and where I'm also protecting through the natural pigments and the tones, just the way how our elders did back in the days.

Speaker 1:

It's just reserved for my people, along with the art, but machine and handbook I use to reach out to the world also something that is more efficient. And the art that I'm doing is also something like the naga tattoo that I'm doing is also evolving with time, you know, just like how every culture, every art, every tradition must evolve, and so, uh, I cannot lose base of the machine or the or the traditional tapping. I have to take all of them together because it is not about now. What I'm doing is about what's going to come in the future.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that and you know, like I said, it's inspirational and I can't wait to the time where things calm down a little bit and I can come visit you at the Tattoo Village. You know that's one of my goals to come and visit and to see you there in your community and to learn about those plants. That's going to be awesome. Hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me, uh, through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, uh, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you.

Speaker 2:

Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.

Speaker 2:

Head on over to next week's episode, where I'll be talking about how to use your ancestral visual language. So, in the past, we talked about how to gain access to and where are the places that you go to find your ancestral visual language and in this episode we'll be talking about some of the processes and the places that I have gone in working with my own ancestral visual language and how I have used it to transform my own practice, and we'll listen to some of the voices of past guests of Transformative Marks around this topic of the use of your ancestral visual language. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.