Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Hybrid Northwest Coast Black and Grey Tattooing: Merging Fine and Formline with Chanton Hopkins
#053 What if tattoos could heal more than just the skin? Join us on Transformative Marks as we sit down with Chanton Hopkins, a gifted tattoo artist from the Stʼatʼimc people, to explore the profound cultural and personal significance behind his artistry. Chanton’s journey into tattooing is marked by his father's nostalgic, old-school tattoos and a compelling love for drawing that sparked at a young age. With a memorable nod from the legendary John the Dutchman, Chanton's path was set, and he shares his experiences growing up with tattoo magazines and his evolution as an artist blending traditional and modern styles.
In our conversation, Chanton opens up about the evolution of tattoo machines and how technology, from coil machines to iPads, has reshaped the industry. We dive into the delicate art of tattooing across different skin tones, dispelling misconceptions and highlighting tools like the Ninja Grip that enhanced the tattooing process. Through personal anecdotes, Chanton recounts the vital role of art as both an escape and a storytelling medium—how his son's apprenticeship might intertwine skate culture with Indigenous art to create something truly unique.
This episode doesn't shy away from the deeper layers of tattoos as a healing practice. Chanton reflects on the visual sovereignty tattoos provide within Indigenous communities, serving as a beacon of cultural visibility and continuity. We explore personal stories of self-healing and sobriety, the resilience found in traditional healing practices, and the importance of being present in the moment. This episode is a tapestry of insights into how tattoos serve as powerful tools for expression, healing, and cultural identity.
You can find Chanton at:
Instagram @aboriginal_ink
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
Like my grandma, my great-grandmother, she was a medicine woman and when she was first born, first born, they tattooed a blue star on her forehead and they knew she was going to be a medicine woman. Like the second she was born, they knew.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Incaqamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Incaqamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Shanson Hopkins. I'm from Darcy Anderson Lake, nahuatl, and we are part of the Stalian people.
Speaker 2:Awesome. How long have you been tattooing?
Speaker 1:Professionally, my guess would be maybe like 15, 16 years. Yeah, yes, it's really hard to say. Like when I turned professional, I uh always wanted to be a tattoo artist. Like my dad has a bunch of old school sailor jerrys sort of style hula girl yeah um yeah, grim reapers and panthers and stuff like that, right yeah and um. I remember when I was like seven. We're in the car and I'm like, hey, how did they draw the tattoos in your skin?
Speaker 1:yeah and then, uh, he's just like giving me the rundown and how they did it and who did this one, when he gave himself a stick and poke, and just like all these different stories of how he got his different tattoos right. Yeah, I was just like super interested Me and my younger brother were always drawing right and then a couple days later he comes home with like this big box of paper, I don't know, a couple thousand sheets right? He's like you guys keep drawing every day, can grow up and be a tattoo artist.
Speaker 1:that's all I gotta do yeah yeah, I'm like at the time, I'm just like that's it. Okay, we're drawing right yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So then I just from then on, like that's just like been my inspiration, right. And then, um, I remember him telling me too at that same time he's just like, yeah, john the dutchman, he's one of the best and everything. So I was always like, really inspired by john the dutchman. Yeah, and um, I think he got tattooed by john the dutchman and the same with um Shore, but, which was really great. But like, yeah, I was always really inspired by John the Dutchman. I've seen him in magazines, I buy magazines, you see his work in the magazines and hear about him, you know, all the time.
Speaker 1:And then I'm working in the like. I didn't work in the shop until I was like 29. Like on my own, I practiced on my own. I practiced on my own for 13 years. But then, once I was in the shop, um, the owner of the shop, rocco, he uh had john come in and they were I don't know what they were doing, just something that involved tattooing and stuff, right. And uh, john came in and I'm just sweating, right, I got this big full sleeve laid out on this guy's arm. I'm like working on the skull.
Speaker 1:And then, uh, he comes over after they're done doing whatever they're doing, and starts walking around the shop and I'm like oh shit he's gonna come over and watch, right, and I'm plugging out this big sleeve it was looking good, though I like I wasn't worried right then he's like he just like stood there for a few minutes, he's just like watching me, and then he comes over. He's like he's like yo, your work is amazing, man. He's like wow. He's just like you have really good work, man, keep that up. And like like you're coming from you, man, that means a lot, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, so yeah, it's cool to hear those, those names you know a lot of people. Well, you know, because a lot of the folks that I uh interview aren't necessarily in the industry, so to speak so it's cool to hear some of those names of uh, and have that reminisce about that same. You know, looking through the magazines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because not a lot of people remember the magazines. Yeah, that's the one thing too. It's like you used to be able to find them at 7-Elevens and gas stations everywhere. Yeah, and then I would get one every month. I get every issue every month, right of all the different magazines you know. I get every issue every month, right of all the different magazines you know. But then, like now, like you, even walk into chapters at the mall. Yeah, they don't even have tattoo magazines in the chapter. I'm like why?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know why.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:You know, I still have like a big stack of them up in my closet right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, when we moved from BC to Nova, to nova scotia, I had like boxes, yeah, and but I was like fuck, because of course, like it costs money to buy weight, we got somebody oh yeah, it's by weight. So yeah, I went through and pulled out all the articles that I wanted, all of the references, all the photos yeah and so I have folders that came from the magazines oh, yeah, yeah instead of taking all the magazines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I kind of I wish I would still have those boxes. So, um, you know, when you think about the style and the work that you do, how would you describe it?
Speaker 1:so, like I do, majority of the work I do is like black and gray realism, semi-realism, um. But as for like my own style that I like to do, yeah, I like to mix up like sort of, uh, like black and gray realism with like form line art, but in like a larger form. So like I like doing like full sleeves or full legs, back pieces, whatever stuff like that Full chest. I don't really see anybody else doing it. I've seen a couple people attempt it.
Speaker 1:That's always been where I wanted to get with my tattooing. You know, I always liked looking at um sort of like the LA style of black and gray, right. But then I started looking at um Lumina tattoo studio in Bali. Yeah, and they just do like these full, like legs, full outside, full outside arm stuff like that, like back pieces in like two, three days and like that's what I wanted to do, right and um, when I first got into the shop I was just sort of doing whatever came my way.
Speaker 1:You know people come to me like didn't matter what they come to me for, like that I just I tattooed it right. But I always wanted to follow that style. And then when I got into the shop, rocco. He sent me to a sistering shop that he owned with my good bro, kyle, and Kyle was doing that style right yeah, and I seen him plugging out full outside arms and I'm just like, okay, I got that style, right yeah, and I seen him like plugging out full outside arms in a day. I'm just like okay, like I got to sit here and just like watch.
Speaker 1:So when I'm not tattooing, when I'm not tattooing, I'm just like chilling with him, and we just clicked too. We're only like two months apart, which was crazy.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Grew up in the exact same era, whatever, right. So we like, we just clicked, yeah, we came like he's like my best friend now, like he was doing that style. So I just sat there and I watched and I observed and I just like soaked in everything that he was doing and then I, um, just put my own twist into it. Right, like our styles right now are very similar, but they are different too at the same time.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and then I just, yeah, took what I got from him, then I started flipping in the Formline Native Art into the whole mix. Yeah, and then that's where it's blowing up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you said it's blowing up now. So once you started that switch, things started to pop off a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, how long ago was that when you started to incorporate that stuff?
Speaker 1:Probably like four or five years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that does make sense, though, in terms of like, when I think of what would you say, the awareness of people around indigenous, uh, cultural tattoo practices yeah right it has been that revival's been going, you know, 10 years, 12, 13, 14 years um, and so it's really started to pop off in the last five or six years so I imagine that it was like just the right time yeah everybody started looking for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I mean that's, but I mean that's also not to discredit the fact that, uh, the work that you do is super clean and super fine you know really, uh, what would you say? Like yeah, like a really refined uh, your work is really refined, and in what you do. So you know, uh, it's really nice uh to see that and have that represented in the indigenous tattoo world as well, because I find that sometimes, you know, when we think about indigenous tattooing, a lot of times it is just the quote-unquote traditional yeah, right, but the reality is is that we're contemporary people yeah, doing our contemporary work in our way.
Speaker 2:The way that we need to do it today yeah, and the reality is is that we are influenced by tattoo cultures from all over the world. Yeah, but then we can transform it and make it into our own yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah so, when you think about, uh, what draws you to the large scale? Because you know, uh, I love the large scale myself yeah, yeah, well, I like it.
Speaker 1:I like it when the whole arm just looks fresh all at the same time, right, and people like doing it that way too, because then they just they, they give me, like every time, I have like a console, we, they come and sit down, then you give me your ideas and then, um, they'll give me you know, a handful of ideas. Then I sit with those and sort of play around, um, with, like, the reference of their arm, to see where it all fits best, right, and I just design it so that I am able to plug it out in a day or in a day and a half. Yeah, you know, and people like doing it more that way now, because then they just get the whole thing done. Yeah, um, yeah, but you got to make sure, like, this is what you want, right, because we're only doing this outside of the arm once you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Big time yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's nice to get that full coverage and to get it done quick. I mean part of that.
Speaker 1:Not just like to have it done quick or like tattoo it fast, like for me, like the way that I design and I feel like it just helps with the flow of the whole arm you know what I mean or the whole leg, when I design it all together, as in one design, it all just flows together a lot nicer and fits the body a lot better. So as opposed to piecing it like doing one piece and then another piece, and then another piece. Yeah, okay, I see what you're saying yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get that full essence of what that piece is going to be on the body as opposed to just the one, yeah, yeah, piecemeal yeah, yeah that's like my work.
Speaker 1:I just got little pieces here and there, everywhere yeah, you can know that they just love tattooing tattoo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was the thing.
Speaker 2:It was like 17, gotta get this done. Yeah, um, yeah, no, that's the other thing I think is nice about getting it done. And when I was saying quickly, I didn't mean like speed, I meant like in a short amount of time, because you know, we all have pieces that are out in the world, that are like yeah, done yeah piece in, then it's done, that feels good, right, whereas sometimes you, I'll, sometimes I'll remember, I'll be like, ah, like that piece is like a quarter of the way done you know, yeah, yeah you know they were hurting at the last little bit, so the last hour you just threw in
Speaker 3:some shaky gray lines yeah, yeah, we can clean it up later. You don't lose the design.
Speaker 2:But it's out in the world so yeah no, it's interesting to to think about that, but yeah, um, so when? How long do you think you were doing just the every like walk in kind of any anything and then, when did you start to hone in on what you're doing now?
Speaker 1:Was that?
Speaker 2:pretty quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like before I got into the shop, I did my own thing for like 13 years you know, that's why I can't say I don't know when, exactly like my, my work was clean enough to like say that I was professional. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, Once I got into the shop and then like, yeah, for those 13 years it was more just like taking whatever came my way. Can you do this, Can you do that, Whatever? Yeah, Then I would just take it and sort of do my own thing with it. Right, and for those first 13 years I didn't have the iPad, I didn't have tattoo pens or anything. I was just old school pencil and paper, pen and paper drawing out my stencils right Like hand tracing the stencils, Coil machines for the first 13 years, Doing it all the hard way, right. Until I got into the shop and I seen everybody's got this iPad, everybody's got this pen, right, Everybody's got these cartridges.
Speaker 3:And I'm just like yo, I'm like stuck in the past.
Speaker 1:It's just like everybody's all upgraded in the shops. So it's just like, within my first month there, I was just, yeah, I gotta grind. And I just hustled, I got the ipad, I got the pen. Then I was just like, okay, it's game over now. Right, just start doing my homework and paying attention to what, uh, my friend was doing, right. But, um, yeah, but like I guess I have always, that was like.
Speaker 1:Always my end goal was to be a tattoo artist. Like I never really tried hard in school. I always knew what I wanted to be in school. Like I only have like, a grade seven education, yeah, and um, yeah, I dropped out. I remember my last day of school. I was walking out of my homeroom class and they're like so what are you gonna do? You're just gonna go and be in construction for the rest of your life. I'm like, no, I'm going to be a tattoo artist, right. She's like well, you need your math to be a tattoo artist. I'm like for what? She's like well, how are you going to know how much to charge people?
Speaker 3:What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:So I charge somebody a hundred bucks an hour for five hours. That's 500, like I know.
Speaker 2:I know my mom, I know what I need, yeah, I got everything I need here, man, I'm out.
Speaker 1:But yeah, even at that time, like I started, I was doing like stick and poke, yeah on like myself when I was like 12 and my friends and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:People would come in here. No, going to throw my gross initials here. I'm like okay, whatever, lying up the slowing needle and thread and I made my own like homemade machine when I was 15. Yeah, when I was 14, I actually ended up. I was in. I went to jail when I was 14 in YCC. When I was in there, like I just had a couple small stick and poke right. And when I was in there I seen, like these other kids and they have like full, like half sleeves and shit. I'm just like no way, man. Like these kids are walking around with half sleeves. I'm just like looking at their tattoos and just like who did that for you? You know, yeah. And then I got out and I was talking to my dad about it and then, uh, I was fifth, for my, my 15th birthday was coming out shortly after I got out, and then he's like you want to go get that shit covered up on your arm?
Speaker 1:yeah let's go you know, so we actually just went up here to we're on Main and 17th. Oh yeah, and my friend Jimbo North. He was working there. He's actually the one who vouched for me to get into the shop when I was 29. Oh wow. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was really cool. I met him. He had a shop out of the Puff store over there and it was called Ink Bomb.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I went there for my first tattoo and it was actually this one up here. Ah, yeah, it's Native Pride, right with the skull with the bandana, a couple feathers coming down. I had some old stick and poke under here. Cool, that's dope. Yeah, so that was my first one. Wow, I don't really know what one came next after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just, they just all came quickly out of that yeah so when you think um you know, uh, you know, because of course I resisted um ipad for the longest time, you know I love that. Yeah, yeah you know hand stenciling, uh, you know mandalas and stuff and drawing those. I just think back now, like man, how much time did I waste, I suppose, but how much time did I use, uh, hand stenciling? And then you get it on there and it's not the right size so you gotta re-stencil give me another hour.
Speaker 1:I remember this girl. She wanted a dragon. We had this whole dragon piece all mapped out, ready to rock, right, spent like two hours just hand drawing the stencil. And then I hours just like hand drawing the stencil and then, um, I was just like I was like almost done, the stencil was almost done. You know, they're just hanging out in the living room, yeah, a couple friends with them. Whatever stencils done. I'm okay cool. I'm like we're like putting it on, just like holding it up to the skin, trying to like map it out. I was gonna lay out and everything and she's just like actually, it's like I don't know if I want to go with the dragon. Can we just do this? And just I don't even know what I'm.
Speaker 1:All I heard is like you don't want to do the dragon you know, everything else gone, yeah, I think I just crumpled up that stencil through and I remember just leave, I'm not tattooing you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, when, uh, do you miss coils, do you go back? Do you pull them out every once in a while, or are they just I?
Speaker 1:got rid of most of them I. I was looking through my drunk drawer and I found one, one of my old school coils. Um, yeah, I don't know like, honestly, like I missed the, the buzz right and everything. The problem I had with the coils too is just like my hands would cramp up. Yeah, you know, after using them for 13 years, like they get heavy, you know, and then it's like trying to grip the grip and you got this machine on the back. The coils just like, yeah, and just like the vibration in them and everything is really hard to like, you know, to give you a little bit of carpal tunnel and stuff.
Speaker 3:You know, just that was yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I I love my coils, but yeah, they're just heavy yeah, just heavy, they just hurt the hand yeah um, I miss how fast I could outline shit though you know, when I was on the coils I would whip an outline up like crazy fast.
Speaker 2:You know well, I mean, that's the thing is. When people talk about uh rotaries, they say it lines like a coil no, right, no, no, that's what they try to say right, like all the new manufacturers all this, this you know, with this stroke length and this, it lines like a coil.
Speaker 2:You're just like no, I know coils, yeah, yeah, yeah no, a lot of people don't have never used the coil. You know, it's always interesting with the, the young guys, the shop. Even though I don't use coils anymore, a lot of the old school guys, young guys, want to learn.
Speaker 2:So I'll show them how to build a machine and give them some of that knowledge that I have. I don't necessarily use it anymore. Sometimes I do pull out my old Mickey Sharps and line up something and then I'm like I know I'm not using this so far, yeah, yeah, yeah. What machines are you using now?
Speaker 1:Right now mostly the Cheyenne, and I just picked up the Mass Lancer, which, honestly, I'm really surprised with so far. I used one for about a year and it lasted me a whole year. The mass lancer, which, honestly, I'm really surprised with. Yeah, so far I've used. I used one for about a year and it lasted me a whole year. I paid 150 bucks for it on amazon. Wow, yeah, I thought I was just like I'm okay, I'll spend 150 bucks on this thing, use it for a month. If it burns out, it burns out.
Speaker 1:You know, I make my money after the first hour yeah but, um, yeah, I plugged out with it for about a year, right? Wow, so I was just. Yeah, it really surprised me for a cheap machine. Yeah yeah, it worked out yeah, and the amount that I tattooed like I don't know how many sleeves and back pieces I've done with it yeah, like, yeah, paid for it, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I use Dan Cuban for my lining, and then I also use the Mojo box by Dan Cuban for some of the blackout stuff, the big blackout to push the 49s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I use a Numa pen, the Numa macro. I think it is just because it has such power, yeah, a lot of power. I don't usually align with it. Um, you know, say, if I have a nine set up on the Dan Cuban, then I could use a not you know a five cartridge liner. Yeah, if I need that, yeah, um, but yeah, I just like that NUMA for the, the power it has. Then, of course, the dan cuban hits like a coil. Yeah, um, and I do miss, I love that.
Speaker 2:It sounds kind of like a coil yeah, yeah yeah, um, but it's not that heavy you know, I heard, uh, amy james on a podcast talk about he moved to the dan cuban because of the same thing with his hands, yeah, with the coils, yeah, I was like, okay, I'm gonna fucking try that out.
Speaker 1:So that's what.
Speaker 2:I use for all my line work now. Yeah, um, but yeah, no, super uh. It's a pretty cool to reminisce with somebody who's actually used those yeah, yeah but yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:I miss it. I miss the buzz man. You know a couple of my buddies who, like my one buddy, um steve, used to tattoo each other all the time. Every once in a while he'd be like hey, bro, I really need a machine. Man, can I borrow one? I'm just like just come, come by, man, come build one. You know, have a box full of bones yeah, you got everything you need in that box to build yourself a machine.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, yeah I did uh a little, uh a machine building workshop with the whole crew at the studio oh, yeah, so it was pretty cool, um, but yeah, part of it is like then you have to do I, I realized you have to do like a second, uh, you know seminar almost to help them. What would you say like uh tune right because, of course, those.
Speaker 2:Each coil is going to be different. Each person's hands are going to be different. Getting them, helping them to know how to dial it in for themselves. Yeah, because some people know how to set it up and make it run for them yeah, that's not true for everybody right so yeah, that'll be the second one that I have to get into to do that. But, um, when you, you came out to the exhibition, right? Was it the first day or the second?
Speaker 1:it was the second day. Yeah, what did?
Speaker 2:you. How did you find that? Being able to meet all the you know that was great like I didn't know we had so many indigenous artists from around here.
Speaker 1:You know, like I I know I know of a couple, I'm following some people, but like I thought that was really cool, man, like, just like the energy everybody had like with each other, right, like I felt like you know, we all just clicked. You know what I mean. Yeah, there was. Yeah, just like the energy from everybody, it was beautiful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We all relate in a way like nobody else relates to. You know what I mean. We all practice tattooing. You know we all work with native art or like indigenous art from um, whatever area we're from. You know what I mean the west coast interior. Yeah, you know, like um, that was really beautiful man. That was super cool, cool, yeah yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:You know that's one of my when I think about. One of my goals is to like start bridging a lot of those, those uh gaps between all of us yeah, you know getting opportunities. My, my dream would be to go to, say, the vancouver or wherever convention and just have a whole row of indigenous yeah I was just thinking that right now, yeah, yeah that's actually one of the things I'd love to have, and so or even just have our own little convention somewhere.
Speaker 1:You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean that would be sick. Yeah, man, you know, yeah, we could invite you know uh friends from, uh hawaii friends from yeah samoa friends from new zealand, the taiwan, yeah the philippines. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, it would be cool. But yeah, that's. One of my goals is to have, you know, a row of indigenous artists, just so we can support each other. Be there, you know, because you know, a lot of times when you go to a convention, um, you're the only indigenous artist there, yeah right so it'd be cool to have a whole crew.
Speaker 2:When we were in New Zealand we did the New Zealand Tattoo and Arts Festival and we called it Indigenous Alley oh yeah, it's all.
Speaker 2:Maori and Pacific folks, and then Nahon and I yeah, but yeah, it was pretty cool. Oh, yeah, and the California crew, the 1111 crew there, but yeah, it was cool to have that. Yeah, do you have anything you want to chat about? Anything that comes up. Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing.
Speaker 2:If you you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air Plus. Ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording Season 2. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I'm drawing a blank all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:No worries man. Oh well, we have a visitor in the studio. We've got my son here. He's apprenticing.
Speaker 1:I've got my son here. He's apprenticing. Yeah, just graduated high school, shanton Jr, aboriginal Inc Jr. I don't know what his Instagram is going to be. He's brainstorming it right now. Yeah, I'm sure when it's ready we'll be posting it up. I did get him to do one little small one on me yeah yeah, just behind the.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can get this. Oh nice cross behind the head. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Cool, yeah, get him started. I'm kind of working on some moveaways and just doing a lot of um like study work, right on the ipad. Find a picture and just trace it out. Yeah, you know trace it out, just get that muscle yeah especially for that form line stuff yeah, yeah, I want to like sort of learn the, the form line and like how to draw it like it's come.
Speaker 2:It comes pretty naturally, you know yeah, yeah, maybe something to do with that skateboarding that you were talking about yeah, yeah, no, he loves skateboarding that'd be cool to do a deck that's what I was just thinking.
Speaker 1:You know, like he designed up a deck with the ipad, yeah, hell yeah make. Get his own deck line going up right his own skate, yeah his own skate line, giving him you know, building a new business while
Speaker 1:we're on the podcast Well actually he has a lot of friends who are like pro skaters and sponsored skaters. He skates with guys like Joe Buffalo what's the name of that skate company? Ceremonial, ceremonial, colonialism, oh, colonialism, skateboards right. He's got friends who are in uh, girl skate, right. Yeah, like, yeah, cool he's actually. He's actually a crazy skateboarder man. Yeah, that's what we were just chatting about, as he came in.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, no, it's always. Uh, it's cool. Oh, that was the one thing I wanted to circle back to is you know, a lot of times when I do these interviews or you hear interviews about people, they're like oh, I never wanted to be a tattoo artist, so it's cool, yeah, like right out, that was it yeah this is me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, that's. Yeah, that's exactly what it was like when I was younger. Um, like, I feel like a lot like back in when I was a kid. We didn't have iPads and phones and all these like electronics, internet, right like when we were bored, like we had to figure it out you know, you play with your toys for an hour or two, then they all get boring.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean like. So, like me and my younger brother, we would always draw. Yeah, that sort of took our minds off. Like me myself, again, my younger brother, like many of us indigenous people, we all suffered from the generational trauma. Right, yeah, so that took our minds off. Like my mom wasn't always present. My dad raised us mostly, yeah, and yeah, so, like we miss our mom. We're always stressed out, always worried about, like, when we're going to see our mom next and I feel like drawing like took our minds off of that a lot. Yeah, right, yeah, right, yeah. So my dad always was like, but draw something, draw something, yeah. Then he had tattoo magazines too at that time and we'd flip through them and I'd ask him to draw this tattoo on my arm.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he'd bust out the Sharpies and start drawing on me.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on me, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that too when I think about, um, you know, drawing for myself. A lot of that was number one, like you said. Sometimes boredom, yeah, nothing else to do, and then sometimes too, again, you know, just uh, escaping out of whatever was going on. It's just like yeah, go go in the room and just draw you know. So yeah, I can totally relate to that. It was a an escape in a certain type of way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I know it's cool to uh think about uh. All those I I don't even know how many tattoo magazines from when I was younger I threw away, I know you know, imagine we kept some of those man be worth some money.
Speaker 2:Magazines, yeah, but no, I I love, uh, you know, I even sometimes when I go into like used bookstores or um, like garage sales or whatever, if they have tattoo magazines, I'll buy them all up. Sometimes I'll go on Kijiji and I'll just. You know, sometimes I go on to look for machines, just because. I like collecting machines. But yeah, if I see some tattoo magazines, I'll pick them up.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Getting the stash back up, yeah.
Speaker 1:I got a big box. I think I dropped that big box off at my dad's Because he loves them too, right, and I think they were just sort of sitting around my house somewhere. My girl's like get rid of those things. Is it okay if I throw those? I'm like no, Drop them off at my dad's.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I was actually just telling one of the artists at the shop the other day. For the longest time there was these magazines called Tattoo Artist Magazines. They're pretty high quality, well printed but small run magazine and you had to be a tattoo artist professional to get them right and they were like I don't know, like 30 bucks an issue, 30 or 40 bucks an issue, and so, yeah, and they would come with the dvd oh, yeah, I had uh interviews with the artists, oh, and so I always think about because you know we were actually talking about uh, the amount of people that started tattooing in their house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was actually my client, I think, because she said well, to be honest with you, my first tattoos I did myself at my house yeah. And so I was just sharing about. The reality is is how many people actually didn't go through an apprenticeship in the industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though that's the common narrative that we talk about yeah and I was just sharing how those dvds had, um, all the interviews of all these artists from all over the place. So it's pretty cool to think about that. But I still have those. I think I'm only missing. I think there's 34 of them or something I'm missing, like two issues no I always look, where are these? Let's go.
Speaker 2:I want to see them yeah, I always go to like ebay and try and find those two issues that I'm missing, yeah, but it's yeah interesting to think about those, those interviews, you know yeah, and then I probably also think about uh, some of that's probably reason why I do the podcast yeah, give inspiration especially to indigenous youth, indigenous folks who are doing the? Work. You know, yeah, because you know, when I started probably when you started too there were probably a handful of folks, not even a handful.
Speaker 3:I don't even think so.
Speaker 2:One or two, yeah, you know, yeah, that I can think of back then and so, yeah, it's nice now. That's why I said when we were at the exhibition opening, I had everybody come up, so there was probably double the amount of practitioners and tattoo artists that you met on the second day. On the first day and I asked them all to come up and that whole uh wall was filled with indigenous artists you know, and I just said you know I don't remember what happened.
Speaker 1:I would like I wanted to go for their first day, but I just I forget what was going on. Yeah, it's no big deal yeah but I was there for the second day.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying it was cool to see all of those indigenous artists?
Speaker 1:well, I would. I doesn't think I would have loved to see that. Yeah, it was crazy it was super crazy.
Speaker 2:I didn't even expect it.
Speaker 2:You know, I had like, of course, my polished little speech together yeah, I walked up and I just looked out and I was like holy, I'm like no, everybody, come up and introduce yourself and tell everyone where you're from. To me, that was more powerful than anything that I had to say, because when I look back in my mind, yes, there were the Maori folks, yes, there were the Hawaiians and the Samoans, but for indigenous folks here on Turtle Island. So I was like then you look there and it'soans, but for indigenous folks here on Turtle Island, you know, yeah. So I was like then you look there and it's just like poof. Yeah, I was just like dang. You know, it's pretty exciting, yeah.
Speaker 1:Exciting times.
Speaker 3:Super cool man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, man. So what did you? Were you excited to come do the podcast? Yeah, man, or were you a little bit nervous?
Speaker 1:No, not really I did a couple interviews before. Yeah, I think my first two. I was super nervous. Yeah, yeah, I'm like afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing. Yeah, yeah, no, I think I'm just. Well, you just go in and hang out. Yeah, chop it up, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, talk about up right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk about what you, what you love. You know what you love to do yeah, right, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Um, do you any? Do any color? Or just black and gray?
Speaker 1:um, like I have none color. Um, not so much anymore, right, this is sort of not my thing yeah um, like, if somebody wants to come, they want to do like the traditional style, like black and red or whatever. If somebody wants to come, they want to do like the traditional style like black and red or whatever. If somebody wants to have like a red rose or a blue flower or a little bit of blue and a butterfly or whatever, I'll plug it out. But I'm not going to do like a full colored sleeve.
Speaker 1:That's just not really my.
Speaker 3:Thing right, yeah big time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, not so much color. Um, yeah, yeah, not so much color.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did. Uh, I was just saying to one of the guys at the shop I kind of miss doing color. Yeah, because I've been strictly sticking with the black and red, yeah, and then the other day I did a little bit of color, because we did. I did like a kind of a lace Métis floral with color in it, so the flowers. Yeah, I was like oh man, I kind of miss this color stuff.
Speaker 1:The skin has to be perfect, though I don't know that's a thing Like any skin with tone in it. Like I tattoo a lot of brown dudes too, and they always want to get a line with the crown, right, yeah, but then so many of of them? Can you give my line some blue eyes? You know it's not gonna pop in your skin right yeah, it's just that's the one thing. Um, you just gotta really plug it in, just work with your different shades right yeah?
Speaker 2:highlights, right yeah well, I think that also brings up kind of an important topic, as well as just the reality that you know skin tones are different and you can. It does in some ways. Limit doesn't mean that you can't, uh, do that work. You just have to understand that the outcome will be different yeah, right especially when you think of the vast majority of photographs of tattoos are on, you know, uh, very light-skinned folks yeah, and so people think that's the expectation of uh, what's gonna happen in their skin, right like that's not gonna happen on me no, no, it's just not even just like having your design.
Speaker 1:Somebody wants to get like, they want to color tattoos, so you design up this colored piece. The background of that colored piece is white, you know, yeah, exactly, their skin has any tone to it. It's not going to be the same, it's not going to pop the same. That contrast, yeah, that contrast, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:Big time. And I always say I was talking to again another one of the artists, nate at the shop, in terms of, like, how do we communicate the reality of that filter? You know, because essentially, your skin and your skin tone is a filter over whatever is under there, yeah Right, is a filter over whatever is under there? Yeah right. And so I was saying that you know, sometimes, um, at makeup counters they have a see-through uh film that you can put over to find your like, your face oh okay, whatever you call it, yeah right, and so I was saying that would be something to pick up so that you could show people like, hey, here's your design.
Speaker 2:And then you put, like your skin tone is like this yeah so here's an idea of what that's going to look like when you put that filter over top of it and it's not really being, and I always hear people talk about, especially people who are non-tattooers, talk about skin tone and saying that when artists talk about it, they're being racist no, no that's not.
Speaker 2:That's not even maybe some people are, but that's not. The reality of the real situation is that your skin tone is a filter and there's nothing you can do about that, and I think it's beautiful to create designs that are meant to be for darker skin tones yeah right like, and I think it gives it something amazing, because you see that contrast yeah right and that's why I love big sections of black.
Speaker 2:Little bit of skin tone, another big section because you can see exactly what it's supposed to be yeah, but yeah, just an interesting thing to talk about, because not everybody, uh, who chimes in has the knowledge. Yeah, to really chime in you can have an opinion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting to be able to chat about that and also making me think about I've got to tune up some of those coils, I think yeah yeah, yeah, you've got to get the ninja grip. Yeah, you know, remember the ninja grips? No, I don't know. No, it's like a the Ninja Grip. Yeah, you know, remember the Ninja Grips? No, I don't know. I don't.
Speaker 1:No, it's like a thick rubbery silicone that goes around the grip.
Speaker 2:Those help a lot. Yeah, the what do they call? I think they were called the Rat Rod Grip is what I remember.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Something like that.
Speaker 2:They were called the Ninja Grip where I was buying them. Oh yeah, everybody's got a name for their own product, right, yeah, yeah, big time. But no, it's kind of cool to also hear some of those names again. There's been a few folks that uh, you know have been able to, you know, uh talk about some of the names in the industry that yeah, and it's also fun to share with some of the new, even non-indigenous, artists that you know I have uh connections with, to be able to share some of those names.
Speaker 2:They're like you know, everybody knows sailor jerry, but it's like hey, go check out hanky panky go check out all these other guys, yeah it's like you know how many people know of bob tyrell now who are not in the industry.
Speaker 2:It's like man, you know, go check these guys out. You know, uh, larry brogan, who was like because one of the artists was like, well, I don't really want to specialize, I want to specialize in and not specializing. I'm like larry brogan, like that was his deal, that he would just do whatever. Yeah, you know that was also.
Speaker 1:Uh, who else was that, ed hardy? Right, yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't know, but ed already actually had his first shop in vancouver yeah, yeah, I knew that. Yeah, yeah, people think he's just some guy who designed tattoo designs on shirts and stuff. Like no man.
Speaker 2:This guy has a huge name in the tattoo industry oh, he was pretty responsible, from my understanding, of bringing, while him influenced through sailor jerry, bringing that, uh, japanese style, yeah, really, and kind of popularizing it yeah, exactly and even, like I'm pretty sure he was kind of up there one of the first to make a private studio yeah, popular right, so custom work right yeah so yeah, people don't know these names go check them out. You know like uh guy guy acheson with the biomech you know, like all of these names that people are unaware of.
Speaker 2:That started a lot of these movements. It's like yeah cool to think about them and I guess we know all those names because we looked at those magazines.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Doc Curley and those guys right yeah.
Speaker 2:So when you think about what is the process for somebody to come and get work done by you, just hit you up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hit me up on Instagram. I have all my contact on there. Whatever, shoot me a DM, maybe just a little brief description of what you're looking to get. But I find it better when you come in person, sit down, have a consult, sort of chop it out, map out how you envision it or what ideas you have. Yeah, I also love free range range. Right, but just give me some free range cool stuff. You know, shoot me a couple ideas so I know how to get into your head a little bit right and then, yeah, just to make it look gangster cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely coming from that yeah um, when you think of the, so you have a private studio, or do you?
Speaker 1:got a private studio now, so I was at east vanuatu tattoo company for five years, yeah, um then. Yeah, you know, we just all need some gross you know what I mean, so this is time for me to do my own thing. I got four kids.
Speaker 2:I gotta feed too yeah, yeah, gotta be keeping some of that, yeah, yeah, in the pocket, yeah, but like now.
Speaker 1:I get to like my son. My oldest son graduated school so he wants to learn how to tattoo and the whole industry and everything. So I'm gonna be cool, taking him under my wing a little bit more right and then just have him just sit with me and just watch what I'm doing yeah yeah, make sure he does everything in a clean, professional manner, right like before he jumps into anything. Like me, I didn't know what I was doing when I first started out. You know, I bought a cheap 250 machine yeah and then I'm okay.
Speaker 1:It's game over, like who wants a tattoo right, I'm, I'm giving out free tattoos for a little bit here, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just be hanging out with the buddies. Just buy the beer, bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll do it up yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those days are over. Yeah, that would be a couple times where I don't even remember tattooing the night before.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's what we do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you wake up and go. I tattooed that.
Speaker 2:A little bit surprised with myself. Yeah, so your process for developing those, do you? You know, when people come to you, is it mostly to get a big piece, or are you encouraging people to get bigger work, or like that's, that's mostly what I like to post, right, because that's sort of the style that I like to pursue.
Speaker 1:But, like I do just regular form line too. Somebody wants to come just get some form line. Like I love doing that too. Yeah, you know, like I love like keeping that traditional way of tattooing there, you know, like just that original style. It's my art, right, everything's custom. Yeah, so like, if you want to just get some traditional form line, yeah like, let's do that too. Um yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's important too to put out. You know folks who are connected to that work.
Speaker 1:Yeah uh, because we gotta keep it alive man. Yeah, you know, because We've got to keep it alive, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:And like true to the person who you know is connected to it, because there's so many non-Indigenous folks who are doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's not cool. You know my friend Nahani's like let's just go fucking tear it off the wall.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know I'm not that, you know I'm not that, you know that's him. But yeah, I think it's important to be able to uh point people in a direction of someone who has connection to it and who knows uh the way to put it together properly too yeah, you know how do you feel about tattooing non-indigenous people?
Speaker 1:oh, totally you know for me.
Speaker 2:I always talk about it in terms of rights, relationship and responsibility right so one person within that uh, situation has to have rights, relationship and responsibility. Yeah, so it could be. The person coming in is from that community, then I'll tattoo them. Or maybe they commissioned someone to design something, then I'll tattoo it for them. Or, on the flip side, if it's artwork from my community, I'm the one who has the rights, relationship and responsibility. So then it becomes their responsibility to tell the stories that I'm putting on them, so I'll share with them. Hey, this pattern means this. This means that We've been working on the revival, and I also emphasize the fact that, because a lot of times, people like to talk about revival but they forget why we're reviving. It's because of colonization. So now it becomes the person's job who's wearing it to say that we're reviving this work and that we're doing, you know all of this stuff that's connected to our lands and our communities and our cultures. Yeah, so now it's their responsibility to wear that piece from my community and culture, because I have rights, relationship and responsibility to share it. Yeah, um, and then they have the responsibility to share about my community, my culture. You know the stories that I share with them and the experience that they had, so I have no problem sharing that, because of course, I think we're supposed to do that. Plus, I think that it's important to make our artwork visible in the world. Yeah Right, so you. I think it's important for people who live in North America, who live on the Northwest coast If you're going to get ink done, get ink done by a local artist, and for me that's also a form of visual sovereignty. So people walking around they can see, oh, look at all this form line walking around, because you're on the Northwest Coast, you know where you're at. That's visual sovereignty. So it starts to take up room in our minds. So we remember who we are, yeah, right. And so you see, even I would say, like that guy on, you know, maybe indigenous folks are on the street. You know, you see, that form line, yeah and ah helps you to remember who you are. Yeah, right, you know.
Speaker 2:I had somebody, I think, on the podcast who was sharing, you know, doing some mural work. The guy came up and he's like, ah, that's who I am Right, just a guy who's living on the street, yeah, so those things I think are very important for us to be able to share them out into the world. Yeah, and what other better way for us to be able to share them out into the world? And what other better way for us to make a living in this contemporary world but by sharing our artwork? Yeah right, that's how we keep it alive, and so, for me, it is a perpetuation of our communities, cultures, our artwork in the contemporary world. Yeah, so that's what I think totally, it Totally agree bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man.
Speaker 2:Super cool, yeah, because I think yeah. Plus, the other thing is it's important for us to do that work because people want it yeah Right. And so if we're not doing it, somebody else will be doing it, exactly. So, and hopefully people will hear this and they'll know to come to you, they'll know who to go to to Nahon or Nikita or whoever else is doing that form line. They'll know that when they get that work, it's by somebody who's connected to it and who has rights, relationship and responsibility.
Speaker 2:And for me to be completely honest with you, I don't always talk about cultural appropriation with you, I don't always talk about cultural appropriation, but I would say that people who are doing that work, who are non-indigenous, it's just another perpetuation of the genocide of our people. Right, and you know that's being very forceful. But I think it's important because, especially when you think of form line, or you think of our pictographs, which were drawn because people went into their vision quest for us as intakamuk people, um or people you know designed that or tattooed that because they were sick and the medicine person said they needed that mark or for form line communities, you know that's a clan or a crest symbol and you're just taking that that crest symbol was given at the time that it was given. Maybe that it was at, you know, the beginning of time, maybe it was because somebody did something amazing. Yeah, and that is a person's name, that is a person's identity that has been given down time and time again.
Speaker 2:So if you don't know those things, you know your people are stealing that, yeah, from communities that are not their own. It's just like the theft of land, it's just like the theft of children, it's the theft of the legacy of that artwork which talks about the community, a culture and a lineage. So for me it's like come on. So, yeah, all that stuff I think is important, especially and it's good to talk about it also in this context because you're also in the industry too, right, sometimes it is difficult to have those conversations with people who are near and dear to you, who are doing that work where you're, like you know, maybe you shouldn't be doing that where you're like maybe you shouldn't be doing this it is difficult right, it is definitely a human experience, right, and I also think it brings up some difficult things in terms of criticizing it, but also understanding that another human being is wearing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I always say like we don't, uh, if we don't know better, we can't do better. Yeah, right, so it's really. I try to be as gentle as I can so that people can know.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Yeah, right, but don't beat yourself up because you didn't know better but if you knew better, I shouldn't be getting that stuff then, uh, you know, maybe you should be harder on yourself. Yeah, you know. Yeah, like I blacked out this sleeve because I got a white guy to do some mari work oh, really right, and so for me it's like at that time I didn't know better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but once I knew better, I'm like, okay, time to get rid of that. Yeah, it's the same with me 17, 18.
Speaker 1:I'm like throwing crosses and Virgin Mary. I was like I don't believe in any of that shit I never did you're a kid. You just think it looks cool, like let's get it done right, and then now it means nothing, waste of space it's not valuable property.
Speaker 2:That's what I always say to people what was it? It's like, oh, I want to get this line that goes down and it's going to look cool. But I'm like, you know, let's just go to here and then later, if you decide, we can always add that little line. Yeah, but that is such such prime real estate. You may regret having just that line there. Yeah, but I'm always like, just wait on that, we can add that later if you really need it. But let's try to think. I always try to help people think ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, me too, even once we throw the stencil on, you're going to live with the stencil for the next 10-15 minutes, right? Just don't stop looking at yourself in the mirror. You're, okay, sit down, let's get started after 10-15 minutes. My great-grandmother she was a medicine woman and when she was first born first born they tattooed a blue star on her forehead. Wow, and they knew she was going to be a medicine woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the second she was born, they knew, right, and like, yeah, that's one thing I thought was like super, like powerful, you know, and she like got older and like her medicine was that she would help people who suffered with mental illness. Right, people would come from all over the world, yeah, to like get worked on by her. Wow, so like in, uh, what she did was like a tent shaking ceremony. Yeah, so you like they lived I believe at this time they lived in fountain. They would go in the tent person who's like suffering with mental illness, whatever. They'd go inside and she would. She spoke nothing but like fluent um, oakland milk, yeah, right, my language, yeah, and then she would go in there and she would do the ceremony inside the tent and it'd be a tent shaking ceremony, right, wow, and the tent would just start shake. Nobody would be shaking it. The tent would start shaking and what it? What was shaking? It was the good spirits. Right, the powerful spirits. They would come, they'd shake the tent. Yeah, to scare that sick spirit out of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, wow, yeah so it's cool to know that legacy of ink yeah generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I would even, you know, because this concept of tattoo medicine has come up. You know I've used it for a long time, you know, since I started, you know, tattooing, and you know, recently we it's been, you know, for so long the colonial government has tried to strip us of those identities. In my mind, that's because it's connected to land. Yeah, and that's what they came here for was our lands, and so when I think about tattoo medicine, in the first instance, it was really about, uh, helping us to find a sense of our own identities as indigenous people from our different communities and cultures, and so it's cool to also think about how those marks in the past were related to other you know ways of healing yeah, you know so pretty cool to hear it is a medicine, man.
Speaker 1:What we're doing is a medicine, yeah, you know, yeah, helping a lot of people like, and it helps people in different ways you know big time help some grief, you know, help some feel better about themselves.
Speaker 1:Whatever you know, whatever somebody's going through like it, it does help, right? Yeah, you know, every time, like you, even if you especially after sitting for a big session yeah, get tattooed, then you get up, you're all pumped right. Yeah, you feel good about yourself, proud of yourself for being able to push through that, yeah right, yeah, big time putting your mind somewhere else to fight through that, that feeling you get when you're getting tattooed.
Speaker 1:you get a really hard spot to push through and like, put your mind somewhere else right, Push through it, yeah, you know. Then that's itself healing. It releases a lot of you know stuff inside of us, you know, to help us heal and feel better. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that's definitely true. No, I think that's definitely true. And yeah, it's also cool to think about it in the context of, you know, just contemporary machine tattooing. I guess you could say, yeah, I would totally agree. You know, a lot of the stuff that I do now is actually more intentional in terms of some of that stuff. But you know, just reflecting back on my career of just doing whatever you know came in Like, all that stuff is in the same way that our ancestors did it for identity.
Speaker 2:They did it for to be beautiful, right To be attractive, to find a mate find somebody to spend their life with Our ancestors, tattooed for all the same reasons that we tattooed, and we forget about that. We always try to make it always something that's super sacred and related to our spirituality, I guess, but it's like you know. Let's give room for the full experience of us as human beings.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's important yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anything else come up for you that you want to talk about.
Speaker 1:Like for me myself right now, I'm just doing a lot of like self-healing right. Like for me myself right now I'm just doing a lot of like self-healing Right. And yeah, man, I'm just wishing for like better health mentally, physically, and just like I want my family to be good, but I want everybody to be good you know, yeah, yeah, I guess I try not to think about like hopes and stuff for the future too much. A lot of things are going to happen the way they need to happen. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Totally, things are going to happen.
Speaker 1:The way, as long as I'm plugging forward and trying to be a better me, you know, and be better for my family and you know my community and stuff, Then you know, know that's good enough for me, man yeah, right um, like yeah, yeah, just yeah, just pushing for better always, you know, like I've been I'm five years, sober, nice, um, trying to connect more with like my roots too, especially, you know, in the past five years.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, like even still, like pushing through, like I lost my mom a little over a year ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My aunt just three months before that. Yeah, my brother-in-law. He passed away last January.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know and that's just one of the things too is just like it doesn't matter how. Like it doesn't matter, like what happens or what we're doing, like things are always going to happen. Yeah, you know whether we're drinking, or you know whether we're trying to heal and be sober or whatever. Like things are always going to happen. Yeah, you know whether we're drinking or you know, whether we're trying to heal and be sober or whatever like things are going to happen. Things are going to pop up, but it's how we heal from those things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:That make a better future for us, right, we can sit in our addictions and be stuck there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and you're just forever grieving. You know and you're just forever grieving, you're not grieving properly. Yeah, you know what I mean. I did that since I was 12 years old. I started drinking and getting into trouble, you know, stealing cars and drinking with my mom when I was 12.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and like you get sucked in to thinking that like that's how to deal with everything yeah, you know that's how you deal with your grief. That's how you, you know, just like, lose it, like we grieve, like I've learned it now that we grieve in so many different ways. We can, you know, grieve from my cadillac.
Speaker 3:I wrapped around a pole yeah, you know, 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, you know, like we're not, we don't know, like a lot of people don't know that we grieve from a lot of these things that we lose, that are just like materialistic as well. Yeah, right, but, um, yeah, it's just like learning how to grieve from these things properly. Yeah, it's like what? Um, what I'm learning now, right right. I'm seeing a really good counselor. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to go to the sweats a little bit more.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, just be more in touch with my roots. We're going back home to my reserve this weekend.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, Take the kids up there.
Speaker 1:We've got hieroglyphics on the rocks and stuff too man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got to visit them Out in the middle of the lake, right like our reserve too.
Speaker 1:I wasn't given to us by the government. It's always been ours, man yeah, yeah yeah, so that that's. One really cool thing is like we have like a lot of there's a lot of stories from like way back in the day. Yeah, um, the logo like our band logo is like a whale jumping over men in a canoe, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the story behind that was like that whale ate those men in the canoe.
Speaker 1:They were all stuck inside the whale's stomach, right, and they had like stuff to use to like make a fire, wow. So they started like making a fire inside. They made a fire inside the whale's stomach and they started burning the fat the inside of the whale so that the whale would cough them out. Right, oh, wow, yeah, and they caught the fat on fire on the inside of the whale's stomach and and the fat was dripping down and melting all the hair right.
Speaker 1:So a lot of the men from my reserve. My Uncle Cooter swears by it, man. This is why we're all bald you know yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:And like a lot of the men from my reserve are bald right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like why would they just make a story like that up?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that's awesome. A few things just to pull on. There is when I think about the reality. What's that saying that life happens when we're making other plans? Yeah, so just being in the present, I think is important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just always be present. Man, Just always try to like it's hard to be present. Yeah, it is, it's hard to be present. Yeah, you know, you're always thinking about something that's stressing you. Or you got to do next week Yep, you know tomorrow.
Speaker 3:I got to design a on it yet, yes, four, four, four lines sleep.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna be up late tonight, but yeah, you know, I'm gonna get it done you know, like the way, I even stress.
Speaker 1:But like I feel like the more you stress about things, even when it comes to designing whatever, the more you stress about like I gotta don't think about, like I gotta get it done. You know, yeah, it's chill out. Yeah, get in the zone, it'll. That's when it happens, man, it doesn't matter. Yeah, you know, just get in the zone. Like, take a minute for, take an hour for yourself. Yeah, go run a bath. You know, light a candle. Yeah, you know, bring yourself down. Yeah, get out and then start designing. You know, yeah, big time. You know just assist. Always try to be more present than worrying about the future too much worrying about the future too much.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, big time, it's what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's going to happen it is, it doesn't matter. There's no stopping what's going to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't even stress about it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So just be happy in that moment, be present. Yeah you sharing how you're on that healing journey. I imagine that it does help your tattoo practice as well. When you think about not having to do that drawing hungover or whatever. I can only imagine.
Speaker 1:Canceling on your appointment. I don't know how many times I canceled on somebody. I'm not going to be able to do it today, yeah. Or trying to tattoo while you're still half cut? Yeah, no, no, yeah, making all the wrong decisions.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. You know it also helps to give room for those people who are struggling in those places and those spaces, struggling in those places and those spaces, and also helped to make us true we're multidimensional individuals and multidimensional humans. We're allowed to have those times in our lives that we're striving to change and become somebody different than who we were. So I appreciate you sharing that with me and I think it's probably a good spot for us to patch off.
Speaker 1:So I really appreciate you coming to hang out with me. I appreciate you inviting me, man, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we'll have to do an update in a year or two and have all three of us yeah, once the name's up and yeah, yeah, the work's getting done, yeah we'll have.
Speaker 1:I got some space for him to cover me yeah yeah got a lot of real estate still yeah awesome man oh, I appreciate you uh coming on and we'll update when we can.
Speaker 2:Sounds good. Good, yeah, man, cheers, cheers. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.