Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Transformative Tattoo Journeys: Healing, Identity, and Community Through Indigenous Markings with Crystal Kimewon
#055 Crystal Kimewon's journey into Indigenous tattooing is nothing short of transformative and deeply inspiring. We explore how her dream of opening Intertribal Tattoos became a reality, fueled by a passion for healing and self-expression. Crystal opens up about her empowering path, from covering self-harm scars with tattoos to receiving her Anishinaabe spirit name, which fused her identity with ancient cultural roots. Her story is one of resilience, showing how tattoos can serve as powerful tools for overcoming trauma and celebrating cultural identity.
Our conversation expands into Crystal's experiences with marking a respected healer and her daughters, which was a profound exploration of community, tradition, and personal healing. We discuss the dynamic process of turning hand poke marking into a mobile business and the importance of preserving cultural integrity while encouraging learning and understanding. Through heartfelt anecdotes, Crystal illustrates the importance of community support in personal evolution and the healing power of traditional practices.
Join us as we explore the spirit-led connections made in South Dakota, emphasizing the beauty and resilience of Indigenous tattoo medicine. We highlight the evolving understanding of traditional markings as cultural symbols and affirmations of identity, especially among Indigenous women and two-spirit individuals. This episode is also a reflection on gratitude, where we acknowledge the potential within each person to make a positive impact through shared humanity. Crystal’s journey showcases the transformative power of cultural practices and the collective strength found in community bonds.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Crystal at:
Instagram @inkbeader13
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture
So just the synchronicities. There's so many of those stories. I can tell you that just kind of reaffirm you're on the path you're supposed to be on, Right. It's beautiful, it really is. I feel honoured to be able to be in this space and doing this work.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intca Capuc skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work. Well, first, I have recently received a new name, and Bidabinogijgokwe translates to when that nighttime sky meets daylight and they meet together up there. So that description is me and who I'm coming out of, and I had gone to ceremony was it this past weekend or the weekend prior to Anishinaabe Thunderbird Dance and received a new Anishinaabe nose wind, so a new spirit name. And that translates to when that lightning makes contact to earth. Wow, it feels like a big name, so I'm coming into it gently, like they teach us with the markings right Come in gently.
Speaker 1:So that's me. Crystal Kimwon is my English name, and, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast. You know we've had a few conversations over the years and you know I've always enjoyed having them, and so you know, just as we kind of as a way to begin to take off into the conversation and just allowing people to enter into your experience as a practitioner. Just tell me the journey of how you got into tattooing and skin marking. What was that journey? You know what are the stops that were along the way that brought you here.
Speaker 1:I would have to say, and I do my best to root myself in who I am and how I came to be, and sometimes that means touching on the not so nice parts. So my first thoughts, or my first seed, I guess, I was planted, was when my cousin, travis Wemigwanspa, and I were in a young offender facility. It was a phase two facility and we were about 17. We were in our class and we were always trying to challenge each other and we talked about opening a tattoo shop, you know, later on in life and we were going to call it. Well, I wanted to call it intertribal tattoos and, oddly enough, a majority of my hand poking occurs on the powwow trail today. So I always go back to that space and like, wow, marty, you know, I, I wanted to, my marty's, my brother, like I remember talking to trav and wanted to call our shop intertribal tattoos. And look, I'm on doing it on powwow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it started when I was about 17. Um, life happens, I I became a mom, just you know, sitting in a lot of hurt, I guess, and trying to figure out where it came from, started my healing journey, entered into university and that's when I got my first tattoo, so machine tattoo. I remember getting, I think it was, the Strong Woman Award. It was a $5,000 scholarship. I should have used it for school, but I used it for a tattoo and Nothing wrong with that no.
Speaker 1:And I had used it to cover up some of my self-harm. So I designed my first tattoo to cover my self-harm because I didn't want to be a trigger. For then I wanted to work primarily with youth and land-based. So I had designed this beautiful rose placement was right. I didn't know anything about tattooing and over scars, but I then I knew where I wanted it and the artist didn't agree, so I ended up listening to him and getting it where he placed it, but I was still very happy with it. It was my own design. And then you know they say one tattoo turns into many. It did and it did quickly.
Speaker 1:I found tattooing for me as a young mom I might have been 24, 25, a form of release. So as a young woman who struggled with, or young teen who struggled with, a lot of self-harm, it offered me that same sort of release. I would get through the self-harm, that scarification you know all of this and I'm learning so much about this now where it offered that instantaneous relief. But I had this beautiful piece to showcase after it, right? So that's, that's how it started. Um, a love for tattoos, designing placement, the meaning attached to tattoos. Then there was so much meaning in that first design, my, my spirit name, my children's spirit names, um, and then healing. You know I did the mainstream healing for all that trauma and abuse we go through within the foster care system. Um, I got to this place where the psychotherapy, the medication wasn't enough. Yeah, so there's that element of spirit work we need to do. So I started that spirit work and I remember going into a sweat and I had just regained custody of my children because I lost them through addiction. And sitting in that lodge and the woman who was facilitating it said you have two women who are walking with you. They were sitting beside you and I said I felt them. So I sat with that healing and just knowing that I wasn't alone. Even in those times you were so alone. So I got it tattooed on my chest and this was actually when I started in the field and working and graduating and I wanted them to look like warriors. I said represent me in the middle, but add your own flair, because every artist, every tattooist has their own flair. And then the matriarchs on the side and I said but they need to look fierce, so put some war paint on them. You know war paint. I didn't know anything about tattoo medicine then and what those markings meant. But I walked with this and I entered into my msw program.
Speaker 1:The pandemic hit and I was dating, um, somebody who we had been in foster care together. We had transitioned through the foster care system and he was on parole. He was a federal parolee, so my mind was like they wouldn't let you out if you weren't doing good right. So you know, I can see you're changing. I took a path of social work and helping, and he took a prison path and was on parole and during the pandemic, when all the lockdowns happened, that was that disconnection from family After about 17 years of recovery and my daughter being struggling with mental health and not being able to visit her, and there was disclosure of, you know, intergenerational trauma that I swore my kids would never experience. So I'm in my MSW program. I learn of this abuse my daughters endured and the failure I felt as a mom, the resentment I felt to the healthcare system and all the lockdowns and not being able to go support, and in my commitment to the program I fell into relapse.
Speaker 1:After years of recovery it was easier just to turn off In that space though of pandemic. You couldn't go anywhere. You couldn't visit anybody. So my partner tattooed in prison and bought a tattoo gun and started learning how to tattoo. He started to teach me how to tattoo.
Speaker 1:I'm a very know I'm not very good artist, but I art is a way of release for me. So expressing myself through tattooing and it was an interesting correlation in that time much like receiving tattoos was like that release of self-harm I would get when I didn't inflict harm upon my because essentially that's what we're doing. It is trauma to the skin. It is definitely. The intent is definitely different, yes, but even through addiction and struggling with IV drug use and picking up that tattoo machine. When I tattooed myself with that machine it was like the sensation of this may be terrible correlation, but for me this is how it was, the correlation so close to injecting yourself with a substance, but this was a different kind. It was like I was navigating this terrain again, but as somebody who was delivering that intentionally to myself and I had control of it. I had control of where the line went, how the shading looked, that sense of same control. You would have to turn that button off and turn the pain off through addiction and using a substance. I got that same gratification through tattooing. So for me, tattooing has always been, and still continues to be, a way to heal myself and when I'm finding other people who come to me for tattooing and markings.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, through the pandemic, my partner had lost his sister to an overdose and I had lost I think it was about three clients in the first two weeks of lockdown, Moms whose access visits just stopped and they fell back into addiction.
Speaker 1:So that amount of grief, just it buried me. It didn't bury me, I buried myself so deep. Tattooing was something I could hold on to, even though my world felt like it was falling apart Towards the end of the pandemic and lockdowns. After my partner had lost his niece, his sister, his mom was now on life support due to a long time battle with alcoholism and her organs were failing. Same way, I lost my mom. He took his own life through an overdose an intentional overdose on my 39th birthday. So it was a very not healthy relationship. I had realized that I had begun to step away and into my healing and it felt like that was the last blow you know he could give. I remember screaming in my car I don't know how I drove because I remember it going black and I'm on the 400 going home to see my kids because they were making mom a cake in.
Speaker 1:Sudbury and it just went black and I remember yelling like F. You you know, yeah For doing this one last. You know, like you didn't take enough and really essentially me journeying alongside Tim, I felt like kept him alive and I've gone to see healers and helpers and you know your time with him because, crystal, you were strong enough to make that journey with him, right down to keeping me on the phone when he purchased the substances, right down to when he used them, right down to when the phone hit the ground. I was there until the very end. So the grief will take you to some very, very dark places. I put machine tattooing away and this was Tyendoneka's first tattoo gathering and I remember seeing it and there were still restrictions. Like I was surprised to see this space being held during this time. You know I'm like shoot, I need to be there. And then I was still driving our Cadillac and going through the. Then it was right in the field like you had to go over. They were still building the road.
Speaker 1:You remember that putting the dirt down yeah, and my caddies just bottoming out, going out in the bush, and I knew, you know, I know enough that you need to be in a space to absorb this, this ceremony, right. So I had done the work to kind of detox. I was still really sick but I was there and I was present and I remember introducing myself and and saying you know, I tattoo. And then breaking down and crying. I said I did tattoo, you know, my partner taught me to tattoo. He's not here anymore. He died. It was like two and a half months in after he had passed.
Speaker 1:And then to quickly justify that, like yeah, I fell back into addiction. I said but I'm a helper too. And then I laughed and I said I'm not a helper anymore, I'm in addiction. I'm not a social worker Because I had my BSW. And I said I don't know why I'm here. I said I just know I'm here.
Speaker 1:And the welcoming I received, the validation of just being present in that moment, in that grief, in that space, I felt welcomed. I felt like this was where I was supposed to be and that first year I had received my clan and my helper marking from Kanahus and her telling me you keep doing what you're doing, because you're going to come back and you're going to help us tattoo next year, I said no, I'm not, no way. No way, because your sense of self-worth when you're struggling with addiction and grief, um, it's hard to see yourself beyond anywhere but that space. So, um, I had gone back, reluctantly, the next year, kind of tattooed didn't? I was scared as heck. You know, you guys were all pillars, you know kind of who's and and all these pillars within a tattoo medicine family. But I, I kept leaning on that spiritual, I guess, hug or metaphorical hug I felt. The first year I went and Seth, you know, he was just so welcoming and the space and being on the land, and I still struggled, you know, for a long time.
Speaker 1:I'd make two months and then I'd fall. I'd make two months and then I'd fall. I'd make three months and then I'd relapse again. I'd make six months and then I'd slip. And that's I call addiction. It's a spirit of addiction, right, it's going to wake up, as much as you're going to feed it or give it thought or give energy into it. So, going back and you know I had a couple of, you always have those. I call them ride or dies, but people who's kind of been there with you in the dark and see you. You know reaching for the light and will support you. So I had a lot of people travel from Sudbury down to Tainanega to just come and get markings, just simple little clan marking stuff, right. We did a couple of bands and the teachings of those so it grew. That's how I came into tattoo. Medicine was the grief took me into that space and I found healing in that space. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate you, the vulnerability and your ability to speak eloquently about those challenging things, giving voice to, sometimes, the voices that we don't always hear about, some of those struggles. So I really hold you up in that sharing that you've just provided, because I hold you up, because it's a gift, so you've given me a gift and sharing that journey and you've given a gift for those who are out there, who may listen, who may be in the same place, you know, um so, uh, yes, I just thank you for sharing that gift with me and those who may listen to this in the future, because it's a powerful story, although, you know, I think the important part for me is seeing that celebration that you have In coming there and constantly making that journey of I'm just going to take the next step, I'm just going to go to the next gathering. Yeah, I'm just going to go to the next thing, right, um? So, yeah, I just hold you up a gift, um, to provide that story, uh, of your continuing journey. Um, you know, when you think about the, you know there's so many ways that we could go in the conversation and I want to value, uh, you've shared.
Speaker 2:When you think about the markings. Oh, that was the thing, because of course, I want to listen with intention and I'm like, oh, I want to talk about that again, but then it goes because I'm listening. The one thing I wanted to kind of pull forward that I found very powerful about your story is a lot of times us as practitioners talk about the healing or the positive that happens when we, when people, get marked. But in your story of the journey that you've taken, it's like it sounds like the mark, the, the act of marking or being a marker or a practitioner, was the thing that helped you.
Speaker 1:I think for me, um, I always share with people. I had been witness to amazing, amazing powerhouse practitioners that first year in Tyendinaga and feeling that energy. And I think it was kind of who said I had brought her uncle to sing those old, old medicine songs. They don't even sound like what we sing today. Yeah, so the power of that and it being nighttime and that sacred fire going and seeing those stars up there, that was my first experience of this. So, anytime moving forward, I had always tried, even if I didn't have drummers, to get a playlist going, to create that space, to open up with smudge, to have food present, because there was food there, there was snacks and rooting that in in that ceremonial aspect. So I've always done try to replicate that in in a way that was fitting for that space. And I remember, um, it was my second, after my second year at the gathering, I had this pillar within the Indigenous community, a healer, come to me and say you know, I'd like you to mark me in the girls, and I knew them personally and I was like I don't know about that. And she goes that's what we thought too. But you know creators, you know spirit, saying you're going to be the one to bring these to life.
Speaker 1:So I had created the space, invited them into my home, we ate, we laughed and I put my playlist on and there was a couple of songs on there that were I just really resonated with. So the girls had asked can we drum in your? I said, sure, go get them so they come in. And so I turned my playlist off in the Bluetooth and I just let them drum while I was marking their mother and the other one was doing a fan work on the mother. So there was that love and connection between mother and daughter I didn't have. So it triggered something in me and I remember, like trying to choke back my tears and just be this conduit. They needed to bring these markings to life. And the mom whom I was marking said you, let that go, because this is healing for you too.
Speaker 1:So I'm there and I'm like you know, and the girls are singing and I'm like, wow, this love that I never had growing up and one that I struggle with with my own daughter. Yeah, you know, because she too is walking her own journey, you know, and learning the lessons she needs to learn. So that experience. So they were drumming and I'm like, wow, you guys nailed that song. You sounded just like that song I had on my playlist. Yeah, so they didn't say nothing. And then, after we're eating, the markings were done. I'm like I just couldn't get over how much you sound.
Speaker 1:And it was that drum group on my playlist and I was like y'all didn't even tell me. So after they left I was on the phone texting my family. I'm like yo, y'all listen to this song. I just marked up these girls in my home, you know. And so when I move forward and Val is always helping me to step into my own worth and feeling worthy of being on this journey, because I think you know you could hear words from other people, you can get really tough, you could build a thick, but up here, here, that's our biggest struggle. Right here is, and you often hear. You know it's the shortest distance between the mind and the heart, but it's the longest journey yeah you know that hurt we carry in our own thoughts so that healing that happens in those spaces.
Speaker 1:I could be on the powwow trail. I've turned the practice of hand poke into a mobile business. That does really well out there and I know it doesn't sit well with some people and that's okay, because when you're paving new paths you're going to piss a lot of people off and I'm okay with that right.
Speaker 1:Um, I found something that is my heart work that is able to sustain me and and pay my bills, and I think that's creator's intent. Tap into your gifts, so. But even holding space out there on the powertrail, you got the drums going. You're out there on the land. Yeah, you know, I'm out there with tattoo, brother and head and jillian prince and annie cushain, like all these younger ones, and we're barefoot on the ground. Yeah, you know, and and being able, and they're short, you know 10-15 minutes but holding that space for 20 people a day and and seeing these young people call home. And what clan was dad? When is the last time that young man called you know his auntie?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're renewing kinship ties, and it's not for everybody, because I've worked alongside some people that I've brought in to kind of try and help meet the powwow demand, because one practitioner cannot do it. So I will never do another gathering with one person, unless it's a medicine gathering, but being in that space and just finding out who fits under, you know Inkbeater 13. I've been four years three years at this, coming into my fourth and work hard to create a space that if you're struggling with addiction, if you're in a state of psychosis, if you're questioning whether you're going to make it through till tomorrow. This is the space for you. You know, and I've built it on my own knowing and my own journey in how we come to this space. Everyone that sits in front of you has a medicine, their own little bundle. Maybe they don't know what it is yet, and even having those conversations kind of sparks that right, because I see this process as energy work. It is when you touch somebody you're touching their space yeah, totally um, and that relational accountability we need to have.
Speaker 1:Um that I'm still healing. I don't know what you're bringing, but I don't want to take none of it home with me. Yeah, so I remember calling my brother one fall I think was about three, two years ago and I said yo, there's medicine gathering in South Dakota, you know, um the school, let's go take a trip. He's like I'm down. So we drove and my intent of going out there you know, rapid City, pine Ridge was to get my bands and my protection bands because I wanted to get serious about this work. But I knew I still had a lot of healing to do and I didn't want to hurt or harm anyone that I was working with. I also didn't want to pick up anything from anybody.
Speaker 1:So I had gone out there and I had Mina um, antonio's daughter they're down from Lower Cal and I had Kana, who's working on my arms. So I had two female practitioners putting out tattoo medicine and getting my band work done simultaneously. So we're out there, way out in South Dakota, kanahus goes bring those brothers in. Those brothers were from Cape, our area here. They carried all our medicine songs so they were drumming me and I'm like how can I be in South Dakota with all our medicine songs? So just the synchronicities. There's so many of those stories I can tell you. That just kind of reaffirm you're on the path you're supposed to be on. Right.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful. It really is. I feel honored to be able to be in this space and doing this work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I, yeah. Again, I lift you up for all of that work that you're doing and I love experiencing the change in your presence, in your being, from the beginning of this. You know telling that, those challenging bits to the celebration in your voice, the celebration in your presence of the experiences that you've had and the reality that, like you said, um, when you just step into that, you know you go to where you're supposed to be and that's confirmed and reconfirmed in every place that you go it definitely is.
Speaker 1:And and the beauty of learning that your bundle is different than mine that tattoo medicine you carry is Dion's bundle yeah and this is good, and I learned that one and this. And this is what I mean. When people come to me and they have questions about the face markings or the bands, I always try to encourage them to try and make it to a tattoo ceremony, because there's so much other practitioners. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I encourage people to walk around and your spirit will know where you feel safe and where you gravitate towards to, and that's probably the person you're supposed to hold that conversation and offer that Samoa to. But I'll listen because I'm the only one here now. And maybe, as I'm listening, maybe Jillian Prince is your practitioner, or Mel. Maybe Mel, she carries more of those teachings than I do and knowing that there's so many practitioners from different lands and that's the beauty of it, it's not just me. It was just this past year in Tanderega.
Speaker 1:You weren't able to make it, but there was a lot of powerhouse women and two-spirit there you weren't able to make it, but there was a lot of powerhouse women and two-spirit there it was. It was uh kind of taken over by those quayoc, you know, and that two-spirit energy and maybe that's what was needed. So we're holding space there and you know, I really wanted to learn more about the men's markings and, like you know, it'd be really cool. I I had marked um this, this young man's uh partner. They're now married and I said it'd be really cool to do your warrior markings. You know he had some Because I had done the Algonquin warrior bands on an army medic. He had come to see me at a shop I was at here and I remember seeing that picture of the bands on the lower legs and he says but I don't want the spikes, I want it to look like sweetgrass braids pointed at the end I said okay.
Speaker 1:So we started that hand poke. I said but we're going to go in a machine because we'll be here in three days if we do this right.
Speaker 1:And as I was tattooing, I'm like yo, we used to have these markings. There was a time we couldn't walk in these markings because it was illegal. Yeah, walk in these markings because it was illegal, yeah, and and it was wrong to do that, and and we'd be killed or jailed. And I'm like but these markings I'm doing on your leg, you know what? I'm seeing them as they're what our traditional dancers put on. They're the fringe, on the bottom there are grass dancers.
Speaker 1:So we found a way to adapt and I'm like wow, it was like this moment of of awe, you know, like realization that we still have these. When you look at regalia, when you look at um, you know isaac murdoch does a lot of our, our, our animals. He calls them doodles, but they're, they're powerhouse markings.
Speaker 1:Right there's power in those. You see a lot of it in our paintings now. So when I talk about we all carry our own bundles, I remember being in Tandinega and I really I was so eager to do this young man's face. You know, I was like, you know, it'd be really cool if Connor Hoos did one side and I did the other side and we bounced back and forth and I was just so excited. But you kind of get the I don't know what. Do you call it the zoom?
Speaker 2:I call it the zoomies eight nine o'clock at night at tattoo gathering.
Speaker 1:And then you're kind of you peak a little bit. So I was in that state and I had been tattooed. I was one of the ones that usually get up around nine, 10, start Everybody else about one, two. You know they like to sleep. So I started early and he was for it, the client was the participant was for it, the young man. Young man, and he goes, yeah, that'd be really cool and we get done faster too. He said, and I said, yeah, you would.
Speaker 1:And then I remember, and I remember this feeling and I'm gonna stand in and I'm gonna honor it here in this space, because I think it's a learning point for so many of us is that I remember going to see conahus and, uh, she goes sister, I need to, I need to tell you something and I was like, oh shit, it was that tone where it was like I don't know, and she grabbed hold of my hand and she held it the whole time she was talking, eh, and she says his markings. I know, uh, I know you wanted to be a part of them and my hand's still in her hand. When you talk about that energy transfer, right, yeah, um, she goes there, warrior markings and a warrior needs to do them, so I'm gonna have to ask you to step down. Yeah, and holy shit, that hurt it hurt it hurt.
Speaker 1:It hurt because I was like I'm not a warrior and and I got a little butt hurt. I did. I held that. You know that feeling. And the young girl I had brought she's picking up her bundle and I said you come and help. You just do the little markings and stuff, but come and feel out the space and get to know what I'm talking about here. And I said, if you're going to get marked by anyone, it's got to be, you know, like a pillar within this tattoo medicine. It's got to be female right.
Speaker 1:So find somebody and just like god I was okay and I should have gone to go and sit with her. I should have as tired as I was, because we tattoo all day. I was tired but I let that feeling I had, um, like how can I not be a warrior in doing this? And I remember like it was really eating me up. I talked to my brother, my son and my brother's like yo, you're really letting us get to your head, sister. So I took that salmon we have that sacred fire going at ceremony and I sat and I said, whatever this is I'm carrying, you know like what is this? Is this her, is this me? Is this just sibling rivalry?
Speaker 2:I don't know we get that in tattoo.
Speaker 1:You know our tattoo family, we have our, you know, little spats here and there. So I put that down and I went to bed and my daughter texts me and she goes mom, she knew I was at tattoo ceremony. She goes mom, I didn't. I marked my face and they were two dots, the same dots jillian Prince has under her eyes, that she kind of it's her story to tell, but that relating to those people who are on journeys of recovery from addiction, from mental health. That's a circle we know, and my journey into recovery and openly sharing that struggle attracts people who are also on that journey. And I'm like, I am a warrior, I'm just a warrior who carries a different bundle. So when I think of Ant Head, you know he's Lenape Hone Shone Ojibwe. Lenape uh honishone ojibwe. He carried the, the, the knowledge he carries about food, sovereignty and being able to live off the land, that knowledge bundle that kanahus carries and being able to defend our lands, that knowledge bundle that I carry in, being able to navigate this journey through addiction and into recovery, those, those are all bundles. You know, aunt is a warrior in his own knowledge, as is Kanahus.
Speaker 1:So she had come the next day and I said, sister, and I did the same thing. You know, I held her head and I said I need to, you know, tell you that I wasn't sitting well with that last night and I had shared that with her and she took it really well. I said you're a warrior, I look up to you. Yeah, I said, but I realize over this weekend I'm a warrior and a lot of people look up to me. So, um, I got a little. I told her. I said I got a little sucky, yeah, and I should have been there to support this young one in her marking. She didn't. I'm getting marked till I think it was 5, 36 o'clock that morning and kind of just like working late, like that. I like sleep.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, but learning to that through this we're still learning. We don't know everything there is to learn. You know there's no practitioner out there who is the be all end all of this and we're going to continue learning until we're ready to pass through that Western doorway and still trying to pick up little pieces of knowledge before we pass through, right, so it's a journey. It's been a very humbling journey. It's been a very um, difficult, at times heavy, yeah, and I lean on what you had shared. It was about three years ago and I had asked you do you ever get tired of doing this? Yeah, and and understanding that a lot of your, your, you know you're publishing a lot of, and you're doing that, you're, you're planting those seeds for future within academia. Right, and I know there's a lot of reading in that. I'm in my msw studies right now so it's.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of work, but you're also out there at ceremonies and you're also still holding space like, do you ever just get tired? And I remember you had said this to me. If you look at it like a responsibility and not like work, where responsibility is, if I'm carrying this bundle, I also have a responsibility to learn more about it yeah and and read what I can and hold spaces in at gatherings and accept that invite.
Speaker 1:You know, when you get asked to go somewhere, you know adjust your schedule and go, because that's the bundle you carry. Yeah, so like we were talking coming down here, like you're going to Cali, and I'm like, well, this is kind of how I got you know reeled into that.
Speaker 1:But while I'm down there, it's also taking a day to go and sit with Russo and just hold space and share space and sharing that tattoo medicine and learn a little bit more, yeah you know, you know. So it's exciting that way. Yeah. I've been all over. Yeah, yeah, it's been a beautiful ride. Yeah. It is a beautiful ride. Yes, hell yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I like how you, you know, when I think about those things that you're sharing, and it's been a theme, and I think one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast was to allow those people who are carrying their bundles to share whatever they feel they need to share, right? And for all of us then to sit together in the you know, a metaphoricalical, virtual circle, in that digital round that is Transformative Marks podcast. We're each sharing that little piece that maybe will resonate with somebody else who is on a similar journey, right? And so, yeah, I think that's a powerful way that you articulated that in terms of you know, that's their bundle.
Speaker 2:Those are the gifts and those are the experiences that they had. And I think, yeah, that's so important and essential for us as individuals to recognize that, yes, we can look at someone's journey and, you know, be inspired by it. We don't have to strive to be that person. We have to find what is our bundle, what is our, what are our gifts, what are our experiences that allow us to do the work in the way that we need to do it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I just really appreciate you know the way that you brought that forward and help to emphasize that. Uh, yeah, we each have those gifts and it is our differences that make us more powerful than our similarities. Right, because if we all did exactly the same, thing, there would be no land defense.
Speaker 2:If we all did exactly the same thing, there'd be nobody there to um, you know, do the? There'd be nobody there to. You know, do the cooking? There would be nobody there to do the hunting, because if we all did just one thing, it wouldn't happen. But it's in that, I guess that's community, right, that is community, so that's where that power comes from.
Speaker 2:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful thing when you're talking about there. There would be nobody when, when I do the um hand poking at powwows and and getting into festivals, now, um, you know, I have an aunt in one, 10 by 10 canopy and I have myself, and then I have this young one who's just picking up her medicine. Maybe she has, um, you know, I I have that background of social work and trauma-informed care and navigating that inner child work.
Speaker 1:And then you have Ant over here, who can teach you how to build a garden that can sustain itself and what plants to add in there. And then you have Nimi Shess over here. She's a hunter, you know, she can. You know, my son's never going to starve because she knows how to hunt.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean going to starve because she knows how to hunt. You know what I mean. But um, she's got that bundle of, and medicines and and being able to walk in in that traditional way of being and doing at such a young age yeah and I remember too, um, hearing at tattoo gathering that we have a responsibility to.
Speaker 1:also when people have questions to in your own time. You can't do it all the time, right, because you need time for you, but when people want to learn, you know I'm not going to take hours of, but you can come with me, I'm going to be over here and you can watch. Or you can come to this medicine gathering and walk around and see how everybody carries their own bundle right.
Speaker 1:Because everybody's got their own way of being and doing, and I always tell people, like at Paua, if I'm talking too much, just tell me, you know. And then, when you talk, though, the amount of stories and healing and the feedback I get, you know a couple of days after Paua, when people are just sitting in that space you were able to hold for them in such a short time. You know, people think you're magical or you've got these big gifts space you were able to hold for them in such a short time.
Speaker 1:You know people think you're magical or you got these big gifts and it's really, it's just honoring that 15 minutes you gave me. Yeah, right, and it's difficult. I had mentioned earlier that not everybody can do it, in the sense that you know we hear this term gatekeeping so much and I'm like I don't like that term.
Speaker 1:You know we hear that within Western institutions that there's those gatekeepers that are all this stuff I like to refer to it as safekeeping yeah when there is some aspects of this tattoo medicine, some aspects of these markings that need to be held close so as not especially and this is what I mean on the power trail. You have a lot of visitors, you have a lot of settlers, you have a lot of tourists, where I've actually gone so far because I used to voice it a lot if you're not Indigenous, please do not take our markings right. And I'm like you know we get a lot of tourists. You know we have a lot of eagles at camp and I just feel like they're really attracted and I'm like, no, that's just where they go to.
Speaker 1:You know, they're how would you call that when they like geese, when they return back to a spot, right, you just happen to occupy that space after they had already taken it or claimed it as their own. But having this printout of being careful not to be that person who culturally appropriates Because when you take something that is not yours, that is cultural appropriation and I have a whole sheet dedicated to it, right, yeah, and you'll still have those entitled, very privileged individuals who, but why? But I don't understand. And it's like, okay, I'm not going to get anywhere with you.
Speaker 1:And I remember it was in ottawa, the nation's capital, and, um, this one woman and her children were there and was just wanting to just digging and not really going anywhere. She was kind of like circling like a dog when they're chasing their tail. That's kind of what it reminded me of. And there was this part on Grey's Anatomy where the one black doctor was approached by the female Dr Shepard and the female Dr Shepard was like, am I being racist? Like questioning, yeah, because that's not what I was trying to be, but if I was, tell me, and really trying, but seeking the black person's perspective, yeah. And then the black doctor was like the fact that you are even sitting uncomfortably in. This is your answer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I used that line in that moment, so when? They say TV don't teach you nothing you know, I used that.
Speaker 1:And by then I had a whole crowd of people around the booth because they could feel this woman's energy and how is Crystal going to respond? And I did that switch up, and then she kind of walked away with her nose up, still didn't get it. But I said you know, the fact that you are still it means you're not sitting with this well and you're trying to seek answers not from the person you know you need to sit with that and you need to figure that out on your own. It's not for me to teach you right. You're here on our land.
Speaker 2:But, and then?
Speaker 1:everybody was there and I was like crystal.
Speaker 2:You handled that really well and I said you know where I got that from?
Speaker 1:and I told them, and then they all started laughing but that's that humor, right that indigenous humor yeah and and rooting that in in, uh, all those awkward things you know like being, uh you know, doing those war cries and, uh you know, socially awkward, awkward moments, just to kind of break that awkward silence is the type of person that I am, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like how you. I really resonate with the way that you said that I also want to honor time, honor time. I really like how you phrase that. Not gatekeeping, but safekeeping. You know, that really resonates with me because you know, I've had, you know I've had lots of students and a lot of my students will go, oh, so-and-so, saying I'm gatekeeping and I'm like, fuck yeah, gatekeep away, that's your job, right?
Speaker 2:Not everybody is safe to hold the knowledge that you have, right, and you know and I always relate that back to our teachings and community of the elders seeing, oh, that person has a good memory and they remember the stories. Or that person, oh, they can really run really well or they have really good, you know, a sense of tracking. They're always watching the ground, and so that's the teaching. Is that people? You know our elders say that you have gifts, and why would I teach you to be a storyteller if you have a bad memory? Right, you're wasting that energy on doing that, and so it's just, it's not even that maybe you're not a good person. It may be just that that's not your gift, so why would we then spend that energy on that? That's a really nice reframe that helps us to understand that it's nothing against you. It's also just that this is the way that I feel that I have to walk in this and share it or not share it.
Speaker 1:um, woman going down to california, we had a lot of mayan, um aztec kind of marking, stonework kind of markings and and I'm ojibwe, I'm coming down to that territory, right, and we had done this gathering in pomona and kind of who's had reached out and with the cali fam gone down there and this young man had come to me and hummingbirds are very significant. And he had shared the teaching. And I'm like.
Speaker 1:I could do a hummingbird. I could do my hummingbird, I said, but I don't know if that will fit. You know, like you probably want a reflection of your people and your markings, right? So, maybe Russo will be the person to go see. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I had gone over there. Russo will be the person to go see. Yeah, and I had gone over there. Russo was highly sought after, kind of like Connor was in China Gathering, right? Yeah, it was a big lineup. So he goes. No, you do Give him one of. You know, he had his flashbook there of markings and he said you can do that. Yeah. And I'm like but those are yours.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those aren't mine, right, yeah, and I'm like but those are yours, yeah, right. And he says no, no, you do it, I'm busy, so I give you permission to do this, right. So I had done the marking and he was very surprised and very pleased with you know the great and they have that gradient kind of stippling texture to it right and I was so proud of myself I I pulled it off and then the the exchange.
Speaker 1:You know there were some gifts of medicine and money, so I kept the medicines and I was trying to pay russo the money because it was his design yeah and in that moment he said no, like. But he said it in a tone where I felt scolded and I I could only acquaint that to like you when you school a dog for tearing at something and their tail's kind of between their legs. That's how I felt in that moment.
Speaker 1:But he says these markings are for all of us and if somebody that teaching in that moment was, if I have somebody from South Dakota in my territory asking me to bring those markings to life, those markings to life, or someone from another nation or tribe coming to me as the only practitioner, in the area I'm Ojibwe that I have a responsibility as carrying this bundle to bring those markings to life, but not just to bring them to life.
Speaker 1:There's that relationality yeah, big time Right and that reciprocity that we're known for as a people that well, teach me a little bit about this. Yeah. You know you don't go into blind, going blind to anything right, you got to kind of feel out the terrain. So there was a teaching in that as well, that he may have some of his people up in my area and he wants to know that if they come to me, that I will bring those markings to life right.
Speaker 1:So there's that aspect of it as well. I always do try and encourage people to. If you're just learning of your tribe and your nation and you're reconnecting, find an elder to teach you right. I'm Ojibwe and I get a lot of that on the powwow trail where, you know, can I get my clan? And I joke with settlers. I'm like 800, I could give you a clan.
Speaker 2:You know what?
Speaker 1:I mean Because we do that, eh, people like that. Or I remember the first time too my auntie was sitting, you know, she's a language carrier back home and I had this one elder pillar in our community kind of circling the booth and he saw the clans, eh. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So finally, about the third time you come around, you come up and ask he says you, we had this big tourist bus come on our res too, a bunch of koreans and, and you know, overseas asians just coming to view our lands, and he wanted to know that I was again safe, keeping those right, that I wasn't just giving them out yeah away and I said, said no, no, like I have a whole bunch of sailboats for settlers and all different shapes and sizes, and my auntie slapped me, she goes, she can't have a crystal.
Speaker 1:But we use that humor right and some of them will get it, some of them won't. Some will take it, you know, and internalize it, but using that humor is important. I bring my brother out a lot with me, who has that bundle of laughter and medicine right.
Speaker 1:So when it does get heavy, or if you have those people who come to the booth that are, you know they're carrying a lot and sometimes I won't even, I'll be like, let's schedule something at home, let's get a few of your family together and let's do this outside of there because you're needing more. So it's also yes, we're just doing these schedule something at home. Let's get a few of your family together and let's do this outside of there, because you're needing more yeah so it's also yes, we're just doing these tiny things, but I'm also holding conversations.
Speaker 1:You think this is cool?
Speaker 3:yeah, you gotta come to tattoo ceremony yeah, you gotta come get tattooed at 4 am under the stars, yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:You gotta take it back. We're just a little bit, we're just. You know, our feet's a little halfway in the door here at powwow, but yeah, um, yeah, you're, you're bridging, you're bridging those gaps yeah in in understanding between what is tattoo medicine, what? Are the markings our people had, um and isaac. Isaac murdoch had shared this about three years ago about also holding ourselves accountable as practitioners that we're not coming gently into your markings. I heard this multiple times.
Speaker 1:You come gently into those, you don't jump right in. Yeah, and I tell people this too, that if you think your life is fucking hard right now, it's going to get harder. And I say it's not me putting bad medicine in you, but it's you're now saying and I got this from California there was a young woman she does a lot of youth-based outreach work gang prevention, primarily with the youth and had wanted her markings and she was helping out at the tattoo ceremony like cooking everything, taking care of all the practitioners and she asked me to bring her markings to life and I just resonated with her. She was on a recovery journey.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I said, okay, well, I'm not familiar with markings down your way, so talk to one of your knowledge carriers. And I had the privilege of sitting outside and just watching this conversation unfold and how he had said it. It wasn't with an excitement, but it was with a firm kind of are you ready for this? Because you can know who you are and be strong in your own knowing, internally in your heart and in your mind, and you can walk into a room and have the energy or the capacity to shift the energy in a room. Now you're going to walk into that room with these bold markings so those people who aren't really receptive to energy but visually can see you're a powerhouse. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're not going to back down from anything. That is what's going to make things a little more difficult on your journey, and I say difficult because it is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You have to be ready. There's a responsibility that comes with these markings. For me, sobriety is big. I didn't want my markings because it was nice to know I could go and play pool and have a couple of drinks at, you know, but I couldn't see these markings in those spaces. I felt like carrying these in those spaces I was dishonoring and all the ancestors before us who wore these markings. So for me, I always have that disclaimer, if you will, that to just, and a lot of times. More often than not, I'd say about 40% of the time people are like oh okay, maybe I'll wait, because and Isaac had said this and I hold it close because I struggled with addiction and I couldn't look at myself in the mirror when I got to a point in my recovery where I was at Ikea and looking for a nice vanity set for my washroom.
Speaker 1:I knew I was on a good path, that I wanted to look at myself every day. Now looking at yourself with these markings and going back down to the Cali story, where now the ancestors are going to see you know, you think your work he said your work is. You think your work is hard. Now they're going to see that you're ready to pick up the rest of your responsibilities while you're here, yeah. Right, and I go back to that conversation when I said aren't you ever get tired of this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, doesn't it feel like a? Lot of work.
Speaker 1:And when you shift that narrative to responsibility. Yeah. And walking a life that these ancestral markings are deserving of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah, big time. It's huge. That shifts, right, yeah, big time, it's huge.
Speaker 1:That shifts everything yeah big time. And to see the, you know, our young people and our women, who you don't even have to actually bring those markings to life with that tattoo needle. You just draw it on and, okay, go look. Yeah. And you could feel you know that I'm talking about. You could?
Speaker 1:feel the whole shift in the room, like you see that, and I say you feel that. You see that now that's going to be all the time after, it's not just in this moment. So all of this, it's like people say butterflies, I say your spirit is dancing. Oh yeah, your spirit is dancing right now. So this are you ready for this part? Yeah, I've never had anybody back out from that moment. We've taken a little more time to sit in that space before we started to bring them to life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it really is exciting. But it really is exciting, it's an honor to be able to pick up this bundle and go to the spaces and places that you get called. I get a lot of conferences, a lot of women's work, trauma work, deep sexual abuse survivors and just a few women who gather and holding that space you know, and could be something as simple as their clan and walking in those responsibilities of that clan.
Speaker 1:Could be. I had a young woman who was sharing her story about surviving sex trafficking in our Indigenous communities and going back to talk with those young girls who still struggled with addiction. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And she said but I need something. You know, somebody told me about you and I said do you normally wear your hair up? She had it nice and braided. She goes no, never. And I said okay. So what we're going to do is we're going to put some markings on the side here, because you have that gift of vision to be able to see when there's a young girl, you could.
Speaker 1:You could see an energy that I can't because I haven't been in that life yeah so we're going to honor that aspect, but we're going to put it back enough that when you're struggling you can put that hair down, because I know how it was hard for me to look in a mirror in that state I was in yeah so being able to use my own experience to connect with, with people who come to me, to bring the markings to life. And again, you don't always have to do it, you can say no. Yeah.
Speaker 1:If, if you, if I as a practitioner, just do not connect or do not feel safe. Safety is big for me, my spirit has to be feel safe. It has to feel welcomed. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if it's not most likely, I'm going to dress it like you know something off you know and for and I've, I've been able to. Maybe the person was out partying last night, or I'm still kind of struggling and I'm like, okay, well yeah but you're not going to know that if you don't hit it on the head right yeah instead of trying to be too around it because you're making yourself sick that way too right. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:So my safety, my well-being, is important If I'm off, most people are understanding, like if I'm struggling with my daughter or home life, that you know a couple more days. Let's revisit this in a couple more days and see where we're at. But I do the same for participants as well, where it's like okay, well, you're feeling a type of way today, let's come back next week and see how you feel. Yeah big time, so like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two things. I wanted to pick up One. The first one was the. I just had to comment on it.
Speaker 2:I always call them little threads and sometimes I like to pull on a few little threads, and the one little thread it reminds me of well, actually, both of them remind me of my friend, nikita Trimble, who's Nishka, and the one thing that she is trying to do, especially with the revival of their ancestral crest and clan symbols, is the reconnection of the generations, is the way that I would refer to it, because, just the same way as you described, you know, one of the people who was getting their clan mark was like hey, well, what was our clan mark, right? And he said well, maybe that question hasn't ever been asked. Like how many generations has it been that maybe in that family that question has been asked? Asked Like how many generations has it been that maybe in that family that question has been asked? And so you know that is part of the power and that is part of the medicine of these markings is the reconnection of the generations and the reconnection of that knowledge that maybe that question has never been asked, maybe that has never been explored, and so it's really creating the new old. I always say my friend Julia Mungiao Gray says the new old. So you're recreating the new old in that experience. I like that, so I'm holding you up in that because you know it's a reflection and I think sometimes we need a way to reflect on the things that we're going through, a way to reflect on the things that we're going through.
Speaker 2:And then the second thing is, um, your observation about the, um, the regalia and those things that uh, are a way that we kept those marks, but in a way that could be taken off, is actually reflected on the west coast, because the, the silver bands that you see from the northwest coast, those bands were actually created to cover ancestral marks. Oh, wow, and then they were actually. Then, after those people had passed, they didn't mark themselves, but they had their band, they had that silver bracelet was the clan and their crest symbol so they could put it on and wear it and then when the indian agent or the priest came, they could just take it off. So it was actually a strategy for them to keep those marks. Yeah, and then nikita says that one of the ways that they know that definitively is the word for carved metal bracelet is actually a word that was used for tattoo, but it was transferred to carved metal bracelet because they no longer used. They no longer tattooed themselves because it was illegal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, just a reaffirmation of your intuitive understanding and knowing of the reality that those things were important. They needed to keep them but to be able to navigate through those challenging times of the indian act you know the challenging times of the outlawing of our ceremonies and those, those knowledges it was just transferred and so, and when I think about that too, it just makes me smile because I understand how fucking smart our people were and are because it was like we're intentionally doing this, because we know it, we need it and they will need it in the future.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just wanted to share those little insights that came from. You know the other conversations that I've had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was such a pivotal moment of realization that both myself and the client had. I'm like you know what I'm. Just I have to share this because it just felt like you know, this whole doorway was just busted open. You know what I mean Of knowing and feeling. It was beautiful, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, check time. Just a few more more seconds, a few more minutes. Um, just before we head to the end of this conversation, um, you do a lot of uh, bringing folks in other indigenous practitioners from the world or Canada, turtle Island, and share a space with them and bring them in as guest artists into Toronto. So I just wanted to give you an opportunity to share about why you find that important to host people from other places.
Speaker 1:I think I don't know if it's me doing it but a lot of people lean on me in connections to our tattoo family and I would say I'm just a conduit. I find myself in spaces that are looking to reconnect and offer spaces. I was for a long time at a shop in the Beaches area and Crash and Burn Tattoos I don't know if it still is, but Indigenous co-owned and we had Tristan Jenny. So like, tattooing alongside Tristan Jenny and yo, tristan, you know, getting the balls to ask can I do a couple of your flashes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because. I don't like color. Yeah. And for her to say, yeah, and I was like ah, I think I'm like jumping up and down in my kitchen at home.
Speaker 1:I was like yo yo and I sent it to like my family. Like Tristan said, I could do some of lashes. I did a couple of them and just being able to hold space with with such um I call them big names within, you know, there's such a revitalization and hunger for um because it's new. Yeah, you know seeing ojibwe florals within the tattoo industry, seeing those vibrant colors. You know um learning that tristan hasn't been tattooing much longer than I have, but she created this this design that was nobody else was doing in our area.
Speaker 1:Um, and, and that bold black work with those vibrant colors.
Speaker 1:And she come to the shop and I'm watching her tattoo and I'm seeing how that ink sitting in and I'm like yo, I'm not going to lie Like I thought you did some photo edits to make that pop on Instagram right, but seeing it in in real life in person and picking up tips, you know like what, what, what size liner shaders, you know you do all that in this, you know, and what's your method of color packing, and just getting all those little tips and and having Nolan to come and guest spot at the shop that I was I was at I'm no longer there but um, having the space to bring in these indigenous artists.
Speaker 1:One of the things, too, I find is I've I've learned through through um coming into the spaces. Not always are we going to agree with our tattoo brothers and our tattoo sisters in in our approach and how we do things. Um, but I've. I'm at this beautiful space and in my life and time in my life where I'm not willing to stand in spaces that you know, diminish my light or take from my light or or cause me to um take from my values and beliefs, because it's taken me so long to stand in strong in my knowing. So, if it means I have to step away from certain spaces to support all women, all women, all indigenous women, all women who are enduring domestic violence at home, or then I'll do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's that's how we become stronger and that's how we hold our men accountable, you know, for their actions, and sometimes it's a hit, but staying in spaces that make me not sit, well, and it's just going to where you fit and I don't think I was ever meant to stay in one place long Our peoples were nomadic peoples, bro we traveled with the seasons and, like I do powwow trail, I'm all over the place, so it just feels like it fits you know, Like you know, it's just a beautiful um.
Speaker 1:I found a little shop closer to my hood and in the west end of toronto less of a commute.
Speaker 1:I could walk to work if I wanted to so it's like when one door closes, another one opens yeah but I commend um uh, the shop that I was working at crash and and Burn for creating the space to invite visiting artists. It was a beautiful area of town. They did an amazing job of creating a space downstairs that felt inviting to carry out medicine markings. Yeah, but you do that for a while and it's like. But you do that for a while and it's like. It's one thing I notice about especially our ancestral face markings doing those on the land versus in the basement of a tattoo shop. Yeah. Entirely different. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Being able to be barefoot on the land, drumming, smudging, fresh air animals, wildlife, leaves blowing versus in a shop. Got that Bluetooth on, all the technology it requires, that space inside something like this seems to take much more energy than when you're out there on the land doing these markings. Yeah, I was in California and the one woman I had mentioned to ask to bring to life those markings I said go see your knowledge carrier. We went way up into the she goes. We're going to go where we do ceremonies. So I said okay, it can't be that far. We drove, sorry.
Speaker 1:We drove way up the Azusa Canyons all around, spinning around, and then we had to hike down to the riverbed and when we got down there there was this little bed of sand, like this little sand dune, that was just big enough for her body to last laying down. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And me kneeling and my feet were in that river and the water was going over my feet and that space and that filling like I felt I could float back up there much we still had to climb up but, it wasn't a daunting task, it was I was so filled, versus in an environment that, um, in a tattoo shop environment, because I have brought ancestral markings into that space, I have brought in female drummers, I have brought in helpers to hold that smudge and do the eagle fan work it's tiring it takes so much more energy from you than when you are in those spaces.
Speaker 1:So that is what I've come to learn. Yeah, um, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't do it yeah, right, yeah so then you adjust your approach after yeah, so yeah, sometimes you got to pave the way. Try to pave the way and realize it's not working so all right let's just not and just go back to the path yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:Um, just as we're ending off, um, you know, is there anything, uh else that you wanted to share? You know, as we wind down this conversation, you know I've really enjoyed the insights and hearing the journey that you've been on. Yeah, it's a powerful, powerful story and powerful work that you're up to. But just giving you an opportunity to share anything that you feel that needs to be shared, uh, you know, outside of the questions that I've asked, I don't think so, like my.
Speaker 1:my only sharing would be to I've to those out there that are feel called or a pull to picking up their own tattoo bundle. It doesn't have to be ceremonial markings, it could just be machine tattooing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing that I do notice, though, between the machine and I think Nahan had mentioned it too in his interview, because I've watched all your stuff where he talks about the machine energy, that foreign energy verse, and I tell people this. They're like what's what hurts more? You know, I have these. I feel like that would hand poke would hurt more, and I always go back to energy. It's my energy as a practitioner that's driving this ink into your skin and this needle.
Speaker 1:It's a much more natural energy versus machine. Yeah, um so when people every artist, and I've watched people poke differently, they go up.
Speaker 1:You know sideways yeah kind of who's like you know, talking about her, her method and understanding why that's her method. But, um, that, come into it slowly. Learn as much as you can. Don't just learn from one person. Go and sit. Um, my research prof talks about you know she's when she's doing her zoom, if we have a zoom class she's got all these textbooks behind her of of academic indigenous uh, scholars that have since passed on. But in that space when she is writing, when she is learning, it is almost like they're still there. She's holding circle with all of those ancestral knowledge carriers and how she had termed that, and sometimes I feel like that too. Eagle feathers that I've been gifted. I have this woven bracelet that khanahus had given me. I have eagle feathers from california, from different practitioners, and I sit and I just kind of sit with that bundle that I've received, right, and it's almost like they're there yeah or or gifts.
Speaker 1:We get so much gifts in this work. I always get so excited at the end of like I don't want to open it you. You know it's like Christmas is not our thing, but it feels, like you know, Christmas morning and you get to open all these beautiful beads and leathers and learning that. And one thing I also learned about trade from one of our knowledge carriers back home in Okamakong is that I always went trade of equal value home in Okamakong is that I always went trade of equal value, you know a leather of equal value to the, to the marking or whatever the cost of the marking.
Speaker 1:Or my time is, and I believe his name was Randy Trudeau. He had shared like, a long time ago, when you wanted to marry a woman, you wouldn't bring one horse yeah you would bring 10. The value of holding space with you as a practitioner and the knowledge that is there should be minimum three times the amount, because when you're going equal value you're devaluing yourself. I'm like I'm devaluing myself when I say equal. But he's like no, because people, it's an honor to hold space with dion, it's an honor to hold space with Dion.
Speaker 1:It's an honor to hold space with Tristan and Kanahus and I'm thinking like those, first time, like so now, when I'm holding space with a practitioner, if I'm getting markings, I am paying you what you said your rate is, but I'm also acknowledging the teachings you're giving me and just being able to share this uh, healing spiritual space with you. So that's one of the things I've come to learn is setting a rate and then doubling that if it's, if it's trade, if it's trade item only.
Speaker 1:Yeah and then I was this is me and always trying to argue, not argue with elders, but like get my point in and I but when you think about it, hide is you're tanning that hide. You've got to do all that. I don't know how to do that. So, I credit, like I don't know how to hunt either.
Speaker 2:So you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:There's all that additional work into that hide right, and he's like well, it's up to you, but that's one of the things that we're taught. So, um, I put that out there to share and that when you're picking up your tattoo bundle, just just trust it. It's gonna be awkward, it's gonna be uncomfortable, it's gonna be scary, it's gonna be. I think the biggest lesson for me was finding my own worth and knowing my worth, and nobody else could tell me that. People could tell I'm so proud of you yeah I look at your journey, I'm so inspired.
Speaker 1:I got tons of messages like that. I got tons of reference letters like that. The biggest setback has always been me in this connection, from heart to mind right and getting these two connected yeah um, and that's yeah. Standing strong in your own knowing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and everybody's knowing is different, doesn't make it wrong yeah, yeah awesome, thank you I think that's a awesome place to finish off the conversation. Um, I really appreciate, appreciate your time and the knowledge that you've shared, and you know I know that you know it will make ripples out into the world in ways that we have no idea about. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey.
Speaker 2:I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.