Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Creating Sacred Tattoo Spaces: Embracing Ancestral Practices and Cultivating Inclusivity with Dion Kaszas and Friends
# 056 Discover a new perspective on tattooing that beautifully intertwines cultural significance, safety, and spiritual healing. With insights from Indigenous artists like Ecko Alec and Jacqueline Merritt, this episode unveils the transformative potential of reclaiming ancestral skin marking practices while confronting personal biases. Listen as we promise to guide you through creating spaces infused with respect, where everyone feels embraced and protected, fostering genuine spiritual and emotional connections.
Through our conversation, we tackle the pressing issues of harassment and discrimination within the tattoo industry, highlighting the challenges faced by women, minorities, and other underrepresented groups. We underscore the crucial need for systemic change, inspired by movements like #MeToo, to ensure that the tattooing space is inclusive and empowering. Our guests share their stories, emphasizing the importance of consent, trust, and setting clear boundaries to build safer environments for all.
We wrap this episode with a thoughtful discussion on the intersection of tattooing and societal norms, particularly regarding gender identity. Through personal stories and expert insights, we shed light on how shifting industry practices can support authenticity and safety for everyone involved. By embracing education and self-awareness, we aim to inspire a new generation of tattoo artists and clients to challenge the status quo, leaving a legacy of empathy and respect.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Ecko at:
Instagram @sac.red.medicine
You can find Jacqueline at:
Instagram @qwendetlig
You can find Geanna at:
Instagram @thebodymodfia
You can find Romeo at:
Instagram @zentattoo
You can find Naomi at:
Instagram @naomikingtattoos
YouTube @naomiking
You can find Nate at:
Instagram @nate.hartley.tattoos
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
Just another example of someone stepping into a space and making made to feel unsafe and to feel like it's a dangerous space and very predatory in terms of not only the actions of the artist but also the actions of the co-workers. Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better. Cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, méti and Incaqabuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Incaqabuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Welcome to episode 56. Today, we're going to be talking about creating safe and sacred spaces. In this episode, I'm seeking to amplify voices, to listen and to adjust if necessary. I'm doing this because I've come to realize that my experience is not everyone's experience. This is allowing other people's voices and experiences to inform my own practice, helping me to go deeper into creating a safe and sacred practice, because the reality is that I'm still learning and retraining my own biases, my own subjectivity and my own prejudices in an effort to allow all of my relations to step into this work in a safe and sacred way.
Speaker 1:As we move into this video, this next section, section one, is going to be all about setting up what our goal is. When I say safe and sacred spaces, what am I actually talking about? And as this video progresses, you will realize that I'm going to be talking less than I usually do, allowing past guests to share their experiences, share what makes them feel safe, share what makes them feel like, especially as, being a big dude, I don't automatically walk into spaces thinking about my safety in the same way that my friends and colleagues may, and so I'm going to allow them to speak their reality and their truth and to tell their story, so that I can listen and continually take in the information that they're giving me, the gift of the gems of their lived experience that they had to pay for, sometimes in traumatic experiences, or the gathering of stories from their friends and colleagues, which informs their current practice. And so, as we move into this section. I'll be asking you again to listen, to learn and to change. And the first person we're going to listen to is an Intlacutmuk community member, ancestral skin marker and collaborator in the Intlacutmuk Black Work Project.
Speaker 1:Echo received a full bodysuit Intlacutmuk Black Work bodysuit as part of mywork project. Echo received a full bodysuit Intacot McBlackwork bodysuit as part of my larger project. So I spoke to Echo in episode three and we talked about a variety of things, but Echo has a depth of knowledge in terms of her experience as a facilitator in creating safe and sacred spaces, so I was honored that she was able to give me the gift of understanding how the practices that I underwent in the project of Intikamuk Black Work helped to inform her practice, but also the lessons that she learned and the things that she knows has helped me to build a more robust experience of safe and sacred spaces. This is from episode three and Echo is going to be sharing with us what, for her, a safe and sacred space feels like.
Speaker 2:Anytime I am out on the land, I feel like I'm held in this, just like ancestral blanket. I feel like I'm just cradled by the earth. That, to me, is feelings of safety. How do we bring those feelings, those understandings, into spaces that we are holding? We can do anything to try and say we are creating a safe space, but if we have not done the internal work to be a safe space within ourselves, people will feel it the moment they walk in the door. Yeah, so if I'm not utilizing my own medicine, tools and technology to feel safe within myself and create safety around my immediate surroundings immediate surroundings anyone who walks through my door is going to feel it. So in the internal work that I've done in like dealing with my own ugly shit, uh, people can feel when they walk in and I've created a safe and sacred space. They can feel the energy that has gone into the design of this space. And it starts at the very foundation of who. Who is holding it and how are we holding it.
Speaker 1:I love this answer In the beginning. I love that picture, that image of Echo feeling the arms of Mother Earth embracing her as she is out on the land, and that is the sense of sacredness and the sense of safety that we are endeavoring to create in our ancestral skin marking and our tattooing spaces. And I also love how Echo emphasizes the reality that it's not necessarily or the foundation. The very beginning bedrock of creating safe and sacred spaces is the person who is holding that space, the one who is responsible for bringing people into that space of safety and sacredness. And so the reality is is that I've had to do my own healing work. I've been on my own healing journey of dealing with, as Echo says, those really dark and deep spaces, those really ugly places that exist within all of us. But I've had to go into those spaces and those places and to work through my own biases, my own subjectivities, my own darkness to be able to help to create safe and sacred spaces. And so when people enter into my space, the first thing that they will recognize is my energy, is the way that I hold myself, the way that I walk, the way that I talk and the way that I treat them, and so that is the beginning.
Speaker 1:The foundation of this process is to do the work. So that is the beginning of this process. So do the work. Take care of your shit. Get into those dark, dank, nasty places within your soul that you don't want to go through, those places that you're scared to go into, and work on them so that when people enter into the space, you are a safe person to hold that space. So again we're going to echo Alec from episode three. Just to give a bit of context, we are talking about the receiving of an Intacat McBlackwork bodysuit, which I worked with Echo on bringing to life, and so she's talking about the first of. I think it was six or so sessions of 16 to 18 days of tattooing where we completed her entire bodysuit.
Speaker 2:I had physically worked to prepare my body a bit to the best of my ability and my knowledge at the time, and I definitely felt like I walked in with a tool basket of like okay, I know how to utilize breath medicine. I had Billie Jean there for the first session, which was, I think, a game changer in helping me to identify what I need around me and then voicing those things.
Speaker 1:So Echo gives us a good clue into one of the things that we can do as people receiving tattoos to help us to manage our stress and anxiety while being marked, and one of the things she brings up is the idea of breath medicine, and so this is a form of breathing. There's many examples you can look up online. You can ask a friend who maybe does various types of breathing and meditation, but one simple one is to breathe through your nose and then, as you exhale, you're going to make your exhale slightly longer than your inhale, so and when on the inhale, you're going to do just a slight pause before you go into the exhale so that you can ensure that you are stopping and slowing down your nervous system. So that's really the goal of breath medicine, of harnessing the power of your breath. You can look into any number of combat sports. You could look even into the training of military personnel. They have certain techniques that help to lower their stress and their anxiety, to bring their heart rate down. That's the type of breathing that you want to look at when you are going into being marked and to help to reduce that stress and anxiety.
Speaker 1:Practitioner is allowing people to bring a chaperone or a person along with them to assist if they need to be assisted, because sometimes when people are feeling unsafe, you go into that fight flight freeze mode and they aren't able to express the things that are going on and the fact that they're feeling uncomfortable and they want you to stop.
Speaker 1:They don't have that ability.
Speaker 1:So if they have somebody along with them, they're able to share that with them and then they can voice it to you to say like hey, something's happening here, we're not comfortable with it, so let's just take a second so they and us can discuss it and see what is the best course of action to move forward. I know a lot of people don't like having people along, visitors along with them, but I think it's important in this place of creating safe and sacred spaces in this place of creating safe and sacred spaces, and the option that I always like to give is to allow people to be on the phone so if somebody can't come along, they could call somebody up while they're being marked or at any time during that tattooing session. Allow the space for them to give a friend or a chaperone a call so that if something's going on, they can work through it with them and then touch back with me. We're going back to episode three with Echo Alec and we're going to hear what Echo has to say about this process of safe and sacred spaces.
Speaker 2:That brings me to our four sacred bodies our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being. Sacred bodies are physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being. I always start with the physical. If people are not physically feeling safe in a space, then the rest won't even. They won't even get there, they won't even be considered. So physically, how are we designing sacred spaces? How are we designing safe spaces that people can step into?
Speaker 2:That is what you did in this Black Work project, I think, even by removing it from a tattoo shop and you know, having a cabin right when it's like. You know, there's a kitchen there. You can go outside if you need to. There's a couch you can lay down if you need to. All of our basic human needs are met within that space. And when I am working with people as a facilitator, if our basic human needs are not met, then we are automatically reacting through our trauma instead of responding from the heart.
Speaker 2:So that physical is the number one important piece and I felt that in our very first session which helped me to go okay, I can do this, I can do this whole journey. I can fall apart here. I can just be a complete mess. Be a complete mess, I can cry, I can like totally check out. And I remember in that first session, um, I was like shaking and crying and there were like things coming through as you were working on my leg and you just held your hand on my ankle. You tethered me and that simple act of like intuition for you helped me to stay yeah um, so, uh, that's like emotional understanding, right?
Speaker 2:emotional understanding of the mental journey I was fighting within my body, of what's happening within me and around me. I have past memories that are flooding through. So, yeah, that physical space is so, so important. The mental tools to be able to speak and process, which is another thing that you had held for me, is like I'd be like I'm having this random thought, we're just going to talk about it now, right, and we would go down these rabbit holes of being able to like just move through all of those pieces.
Speaker 2:I also brought journals with me because I am a lover of words and I would you know if I had a spoken word piece that would come out afterwards, I would allow myself to write that out so I could go to bed that night and get a good sleep. Having Billie Jean for that first session, there was an emotional connection of just feeling safe and seen and understood. She was able to pick up on things that I needed before I knew I needed them and even when I wasn't understanding like I don't know what it is I just like need some sort of help. She's like here is some essential oils on a paper towel.
Speaker 2:Like oh, that's exactly what it is. And so then you begin to just open up your heart space when you are feeling understood by the people around you, you're feeling seen, you're feeling held in that process, and then it becomes safe to heal when our physical, mental and emotional beings are cared for. That's our human self.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It allows our spirit to come through. And that's when I would have all sorts of messages, downloads, visions, and I would share those with you in our process of like this is what I'm seeing, this is what's coming to me, this is what I'm being told, or I'm stuck and I need a break so I can process what's happening? Definitely Right, yeah, yeah. So all of those, all of those make up that whole process of a safe and sacred space to heal.
Speaker 1:Such powerful words by Echo, emphasizing the importance of creating a space that honors the physical, the mental and the emotional, which then allows for the spiritual to become part of the equation. Such a powerful testimony spiritual to become a part of the equation Such a powerful testimony, and I'm honored that Echo has gone on this journey with me in creating an Antlikat McBlackwork bodysuit. Just powerful words. And one of the things that I wanted to just emphasize, or that just comes to mind before we move on, is one of the ways to create physical safety.
Speaker 1:A lot of times I'll tell people, especially if we're going into big work, is that if you're a person who gets cold easily, bring a heavy blanket that you can help to contain and to regulate your temperature, your physical temperature.
Speaker 1:And then, especially when you think about working in a tattoo shop, I always have a selection of little blankets or shawls that I can give to my client or my collaborator to help regulate their temperature as well as to give them a sense of physical safety, especially when we're going into more sensitive areas and we need access to the body. And so, yeah, just little clues and tips to that come to mind as we're moving through. And then the last thing is, if you're working on the sternum or the chest to have pasties to cover the nipples and when I say that too, I also want to emphasize that don't assume a person's gender when you're going into that process. Just ask everyone if they'd like to have pasties to cover their nipples as you go into that process, because you don't want to assume something that isn't true or to assume something that will make someone feel uncomfortable and unsafe. Going back to episode three with Echo Alec, I'm excited to hear what Echo has to say about this topic of creating safe and sacred space.
Speaker 2:That would probably be. My next tool is trust. If, as someone receiving the medicine steps in and they don't trust the practitioner, it's not going to work. Yeah, if a practitioner is holding that space and isn't able to be in relationship with the person who is stepping foot in, then it's also going to feel weird. Right person who is stepping foot in, then it's also going to feel weird. Right like there. There needs to be this like reciprocal space yeah within like it's ceremony to me I go into like a meditative space and my eyes are all weird afterwards.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm channeling yeah, um so, again, echo, sharing that it's important, uh, to have the tool of trust, and sometimes people don't gel together. So there's nothing wrong with taking time and space to go hey, maybe this isn't the right fit. Maybe you should go see someone else, or to give opportunity to your client or your collaborator in that process and just check in hey, how are you feeling what's going on? So that they have opportunities to share, maybe that they feel that this isn't a right fit and that they can go get the work done by someone else, because there's no shame, there's no hurt, there's nothing to feel bad about in that scenario.
Speaker 1:Reality is us as human beings just don't gel together sometimes. And then the next thing I would reemphasize from earlier is that to be a safe person is the foundation, and so be somebody that is trustworthy, be somebody who can hold others' beings in your hands as you do this work. Otherwise, the trust that they put into you is not something that will live out into the world. So we're going into episode 37, listening to Nathaniel Hartley, a colleague of mine who used to work with me at HFX Tattoo, a trans man who is sharing his knowledge of creating safe and sacred spaces for queer folks and trans folks. So I'm honored that Nathaniel was able to come and visit with me on the Transport of Marks. So we're stepping into episode 37 with Nate Hartley.
Speaker 5:That's a really interesting point, though, about the touch thing, because, as a trans person, over the years I've gotten more comfortable with my body. But a large reason why I think I didn't start getting tattooed sooner I got my first around 23, 22, 23 um was, I believe I was. I was, uh, intimidated by by shops and going into a space and being, you know, perceived and touched by someone who I didn't know if they were a safe or accepting person. So I think making those spaces in the tattoo world and any space, but especially in the tattoo world, is exceptionally important. And you know, sometimes I hear people say that you know, I didn't feel comfortable getting tattooed and then my friend got tattooed by you and you know you're, you're trans and queer, and you made them feel, uh, safe and welcomed.
Speaker 5:Or you know people with disabilities as well. I find that that kind of um uh that works its way into it as well, because that's another vulnerable population where they're coming and trusting you to be respectful with, with their bodies and with their, you know, with their mental, mental capacity as well, because it's all well and good to be gentle with someone, but you know, if I'm here, you know saying things that are unsafe than that, um, but but the the idea around touch and tattooing is a very interesting thing that I don't think is talked about a ton. A lot of conversations about consent and explaining what you're doing to people, especially if it's one of their first tattoos or a tattoo in a vulnerable place, is exceptionally important.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Nate brings up some important things to consider when we are thinking about creating safe and sacred spaces or protected spaces. Is that the idea of informed care, trauma-informed care, and part of that is that knowing and realizing that you don't know what people are coming into, what experiences that they have had in their lives, what things that they have been through that have been traumatic and have created wounds in them that can easily be reopened and triggered, and so when we think about that, it's important to be gentle with people and to help to speak in a way that does not trigger them or has the potential to trigger somebody. So speaking, of course, in a respectful way, honoring people's pronouns, etc. Are very important in this work of creating safe and sacred spaces In tattooing and ancestral skin marking.
Speaker 1:Those things are transferable one to the other, except for there are some things that we do in our ancestral skin marking practices that the principles may be applied to professional tattooing or non-indigenous folks doing their professional tattoo work that aren't really acceptable because they're practices and ceremonies and protocols that are developed within our own communities, but the principles can definitely be applied to both. So we're going back to episode 37 with nate hartley talking about safe and sacred spaces.
Speaker 5:There's not really any bad side manner tattoo etiquette in terms of making your client feel comfortable. There's not a standards of care like nurses have, or a training class where you go in and somebody pats you on the back and says, yeah, you got 95 out of 100 on bad side manner. So, yeah, really checking in and the idea of consent, that you know that that is consent, the idea that it's not a yes or no, it's it's always a moving target of you know what works for you, what doesn't. You need a five minute break, you need a 10 minute break. Do you need a snack? Do you need to call it quits for today?
Speaker 5:You know, and, like you said, all those things are acceptable and people have been, you know, clients of mine, clients of yours, I'm sure have shared, you know, stories where they felt like they can't say no, yeah, they can't stop, they have to. You know, continue going through, yeah, push through. Um, they're made to feel, you know, like they've inconvenienced the artist by needing to stop and yeah, I mean we're, we're poking someone with a needle, like it's, you know whether or not it's, it's fucking painful, whether or not it's in like the easiest place to get tattooed or the hardest place to get tattooed.
Speaker 5:It's. It's a process for your body and you know sometimes you got to really listen to your body because when your body is telling you, no, we got to stop this, you know you're going to feel like shit if you push through that and you're not going to heal super well.
Speaker 1:I really like how Nate phrases this idea of consent not being a single act, a single moment in time. Asking for consent and then continually asking for consent is important, and the way that Nate talks about it is it's a moving target that continually has to be renegotiated. And a lot of times in my, as I'm tattooing somebody, I'm always checking in how are you doing, especially when somebody is going through really painful, you know. You always know when somebody is really struggling to get through it. Just checking in, hey, how are you doing? Is always an important thing, and that's a process of continual consent continuing to check back in, seeing how they're doing, seeing if they want to continue in, seeing how they're doing, seeing if they want to continue, and then you listen to the things that those people are saying. Sometimes you can say, hey, you know we got five more minutes, or just have one more little line. Are you okay with me continuing to get that done? And then, of course, after that's done, then you stop, and then sometimes people of course will say, no, I think I need a break now, and so you just stop and let them take their break, bring their nervous system back to you know, to calm, and then you can go back into the work.
Speaker 1:So we're going back into episode 37 with Nate Hartley. In this, the beginning of this clip, I asked Nate some of the important things that he sees for creating safe spaces for queer and trans folks. When you think about that, what are the things that you endeavor to do to make the space that you're working in safer? What are those things, when you think about it, for your community, that is important to uh have present?
Speaker 5:uh, a big thing is is language. Um, language is very, you know, assumptive thing. Uh, like you know, hey guys, hi, ma'am, hi sir, you know a very gender assuming thing and, and that goes for you know, body parts as well. Like you know, I try, um, to refer to body parts as very gender neutral things. You know, which, for the most part, arms, legs, fine, but there's, you know, once you start getting to the torso, like sternum, chest, like I try not to gender those terms or try to, you know, which is kind of funny, because you just kind of default to like the male terms, so like chest instead of breast, but everybody has a chest, not everyone has breasts. So if we say chest, then it kind of just helps to not say communicating with someone until you can discuss or figure out what makes them more comfortable and also just having that space for if I need to be corrected, you know, if somebody's name has changed since the last appointment, or so, yeah, I guess language is definitely a big one from you know.
Speaker 5:The second they come in and fill out the form and have to specify, you know, just making sure that you're touching them in a way that's comfortable and, again, in a way that you're not super gendering body parts or clothing. So I'm going to move this strap out of the way, as opposed to I'm going to move your bra or your binder to. I'm going to move your, your bra or your binder, you know, um, yeah, just just not bringing attention to things that could cause, um, I guess, worry or the feeling of being unsafe. Yeah, um is probably the biggest way to to kind of support that community and the way that I feel that that community is most likely not supported, um, just in terms of, you know, we're, we're so used to our set of language that we use, and you know what things are and what indicators are, and um, but of course, that's that's being broken down over and over and over and has been throughout history.
Speaker 5:Um, and then I mean, it's also as simple, as you know, having just like, rainbow flags around, just, you know, um, symbols of, I mean, I guess, acceptance and hope. Um, and actually you meaning that as well, because you know how, you know you can what's it called pinkwashing with queer stuff. You can just slap on a rainbow.
Speaker 3:That's a new one for me.
Speaker 5:Pinkwashing. Oh look, h&m's queer-friendly, yet we've fired X amount of queer employees or sent money to so-and-so to politicians who are against that stuff. So, just being deliberate with your language and also deliberate with, I guess, your symbols that you fill your space with in terms of, um, trying to show support, um, one of the ones that I've got on my wall, they're the tattooer for all bodies, the trans guy that's quite buff but still has, like a chest. Um, I get a lot of comments on that one in terms of people saying, like that that's really cool. That makes me feel really accepted in this space, whether or not they're they're, they're trans, masculine or trans or queer, or you know um, it even goes down to, like, you know, any type of body, body discomfort, people who are like, oh, I shouldn't get my stomach tattooed because you know I'm going to lose weight first and whatever, and um, whatever and um, yeah, that kind of that kind of breaks into to just accepting bodies and not othering them when they're slightly different from the, like, you know, straight white European.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm thankful for Nate for, uh, you know, opening up and sharing some of the things that are important for his community and the community of Two-Spirit, queer and trans folks. You know, I've found these conversations with folks from the queer and trans community and Two-Spirit community to be so eye-opening because these are not my realities and so you can you heard me say say, oh, that's a new one for me. So these are the opportunities that you need to take to inform yourself go listen to a podcast with uh, folks who are not from your community, folks who are, uh, you are unfamiliar with their lifestyle, with their worldview, with the way that they live and then experience the world. It's important to listen to some of those things and help it to inform your practice, and so this has been one of the most valuable gifts of Transformative Marks for me is getting to have conversations with people that I wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to talk to in such an in-depth way about some of these particular realities. And so, yeah, this is just an opportunity for you to go and to find a way to become informed about another person's, another individual's reality and lived experience, so that it can help to inform your own practice and your own way of being, to endeavor to create and to make tattooing a little bit safer.
Speaker 1:In this next section, we're going to be listening to the voices of those who are most impacted by unsafe and dangerous spaces, as a way of informing our practices and also helping us to see some of the things that maybe we didn't realize or we were ignorant of the fact that these are unsafe and dangerous practices, these are unsafe and dangerous ways of acting in the tattoo world, and we're going to be shifting between, again, between my colleagues who work professionally in the tattoo industry and those colleagues who work in ancestral skin marking and work in their own developed communal space. And so, again, as I always say, listen, learn and change. So we're going back to episode 37 with Nate Hartley, another important little tidbit clip that Nate is giving us as a gift.
Speaker 5:You know my wife. She had a tattoo experience where she felt as though the artist was. It was a sternum piece and she felt very uncomfortable with how she was being touched and those stories really break my heart, especially in vulnerable places and feeling as though your body and your being was not taken into consideration with the process. Yeah, exactly, it wasn't respected.
Speaker 1:So I think just the conversation around respect and what that looks like to different people- Just an example of Nate's partner's experience of being tattooed on the sternum and them not feeling, or her not feeling, respected or honored in that process. This brings to mind the idea of consent and also, when I think about consent, consent is being aware of what you're consenting to, and so, when I think about that in the process of tattooing is being outright and transparent in the process. And so a lot of times in some of my introductory emails I tell people that, hey, I'm going to have to stretch your skin. When I do that, I will let you know at the very moment that I'm going to do it and to ensure that you're comfortable with it. So sometimes I say I'm just going to have to place my hand on your sternum and to stretch your chest a little bit so that we can hand on your sternum and to stretch your chest a little bit so that we can, you know, get this line in here or to get the shading in here. Are you okay with that? And so if they're okay, then you go ahead.
Speaker 1:If not, then you can wait and figure out a way to ensure that you can get your job done, but also honoring and respecting that person's personhood, that person's being that person's body. Sometimes that's also, you know that's very important when you're going to stretch the skin that you are using. You know a flat palm and you aren't, you know, gripping or grabbing. You know those are really important things to consider when you're going into doing this work. So make sure that you have consent, but also informed consent, so people know what they're stepping into and they're not surprised by anything. And then follow through with those things that you say you're going to do. So we're going to episode 16 with Gina Dunbar. Say you're going to do so. We're going to episode 16 with gina dunbar uh, again going into talking about creating safe and sacred spaces.
Speaker 6:Trauma from growing up follows you. If you don't heal it, it will follow you into workplaces. It will allow you to be in these workspaces to be manipulated, to be controlled, to be conditioned, because you're already broken. So those people who are of power over you know how to work that and they know how to make you stay with fear mongering and empty promises and all that you know better, tomorrow will be better you know like and then the next thing tomorrow comes. And then it's five years from now and it still isn't better.
Speaker 6:So it's just those moments where you really got to like grab by the horns, no matter how scary it is, and go off on your own and it's just the what's best yeah, um for it in the end so gina brings up some important points to uh maybe condense and to uh bring forward.
Speaker 1:You know she talks about this process of really gaslighting I guess you could call it is, uh, empty promises and so, oh well, I won't do it again and that continually happens again and again and again down the line. So that's true in any relationship. But in the relationship of, say, a mentorship or working in a space, somebody continually breaking their promises again and again and again and nothing changes, that is a clue that you are being manipulated in that situation. Another thing is, you know, if people are using fear to manipulate you, to manipulate your actions, now that's another clue that hey, it's time to get out of this place. So Gina's just bringing forward things that can help you to recognize, when you're in a place, in a space, in a relationship or a workplace that is taking advantage of you and helping to bring forward, maybe to your mind that, hey, this is actually not okay, because sometimes our trauma informs our actions in the present. And so this is just Gina giving the gift of highlighting some of those things. So we're going to episode 23 with Romeo.
Speaker 4:Reyes. Oh my god, like getting into the industry as a female. That was like yeah because, um, I don't know so much now. I think I think it's better for women, but back then, like there's so many stories about women getting bullied, oh yeah, in the workplace um. I remember uh hearing what's her name megan megan massacre oh yeah, I think she was new york inc.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think she talked about early on when she worked at a shop and because she was the only female there, yeah, some of the guys in the shop would piss in her ink bottles, what, yeah, and like do other shit to mess with her just because she was like the only female there and so you can't even that's mind-blowing I know it's mind-blowing, but it's like it's. It's so common, it's like it's it's so common it's like not just her.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so many other well-known like female tattoo artists would talk about like uh, nightmares like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and um, for me, um, yeah, I, the first shop I worked at. It was I was the only Asian person there. Yeah, uh, they were all white. And like uh, uh, and then, like I guess, like society tends to fetish, fetishize, like asian women, yeah, and me being like working at the front, like, yeah, clients would come in and I would just have to deal with a lot of like sexual harassment and just feeling uncomfortable. But, yeah, I kept telling myself like no, suck it up, this is how the industry is. And like you want a tattoo, so you have to put up with this stuff. Yeah, um, to work in this industry. And the crazy thing was like, um, for the job interview for me to become, uh, the studio manager, yeah, one of the questions that the owner asked was how are you with sexual harassment? And like that's a weird thing to say at a job as a job?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't question like what?
Speaker 4:like I don't think you can answer like yeah, yeah, it's probably not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, not yeah, but he's not legal? No, I don't think so yeah yeah.
Speaker 4:So when he asked me that like I wasn't really, if it were anyone else I'm sure they'd be like why would you ask me that? But yeah, um, he just said like I need to ask you this because we do get clients that come in that are like pervs or they just say things that are pretty much sexual harassment and like he just wants to see if I can like handle that. And I told him I'm like well, my boss at my previous job pretty much like harassed me every day in the form of like jokes, yeah, like cause he knew I was a lesbian, and he would just say things that were super inappropriate. Yeah, yeah, I just like it was annoying.
Speaker 1:Harmful. I would say oh, totally, yeah, yeah, it was probably. I think you're being generous by saying inappropriate yeah, no, for real, seriously.
Speaker 4:And one reason why it didn't affect me to the extent that it should have was because inside I felt like a dude. Ah, okay me to the extent that it should have was because inside I felt like a dude. So he would say all these things like you know, yeah, and. And in my mind I'm like, if you only knew. Like that's not me, yeah, you're who you're talking to, but still, you should not talk to anyone like this.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah yeah, so uh, yeah, they asked me that at that job interview and like I was like, well, I'm kind of used to it, which? Is sad to say. Yeah, that's just mind-blowing. Yeah, it's messed up, but yeah, I ended up working for them.
Speaker 1:So there's a few little things that I'd like to highlight from this conversation. With Romeo Talking about entering into the tattoo industry as a female, it was interesting for me because it helped me to realize that my experience of the world is not everyone's experience, because of course well, not of course, but by and large I would not enter into a job interview and be asked how are you with sexual harassment? It's just not something that normally would happen to me as a dude. So that helps me to realize hey, not everybody's experience is my experience. I need to peek into those experiences, those life experiences of others, to get a sense of what the world is like for them, so that it can inform my own practice, my own way of working in the world.
Speaker 1:And then you can also notice in this clip that when Romeo is talking about the experience of, hey, in my mind and in my heart I didn't feel like a woman anyway, so it didn't affect me that much. You hear me say, oh, that's interesting, because that's another time in these conversations where I'm like, oh, I never thought about that's interesting because of course that's not my reality, that's not the way that my mind works or my experience works, so it's just informing uh the way that uh uh, it's an example of me learning about other people's experiences and it helps to inform uh my own life and my own journey as I relearn and reprogram my own biases and my own prejudices and my own misunderstandings, and not even sometimes it's I didn't even think about it, because, of course, why would I? Because it's not even part of my reality. So these are really gifts. These conversations, these opportunities to hear about somebody who has a different life experience is actually a gift for me and for you. So take the opportunity to, to listen, to learn and to change. So we're going back to episode 16 with gina dunbar uh, the me too movement where women were standing up for sexual assault, um and different types of workspaces, and it was worldwide throughout it.
Speaker 6:So it shook a lot of every, almost every community, you know. It really woke up women and gave them momentum to speak up, and what was happening specifically in my industry was women asked to be unclothed.
Speaker 6:They didn't need to be unclothed you know they would use their numbers, uh, from their consent forms and add them to snapchat and they would tattoo them and then be like you know this could be free. If you did this or this and this to me, or if you know you met up or you send these pictures, I'll give you a discount right um and with doing both piercing and tattooing.
Speaker 6:My youngest client for piercing is six years old, so, and I've been piercing now for almost eight years eight years ish and uh. So a lot of them grow up and they become my tattoo clients yeah or they want to go get tattoos so then they'll be be like, hey, I want to go to da-da-da, this person, and I'm all like, well, hey, actually this guy did this right.
Speaker 6:Like you should, if you like, even if I don't want to do it, I'll be able to send them somewhere safer. Right Like why, you know fine line script go to this person or this person. Right Like you don't really navigate about it. The best, you only really navigate about it. The best thing that we can do is like educate our clients yeah what's normal and what's not normal, right?
Speaker 6:um, and it's similar with other things too, like, even when you're getting a massage, you don't have to be 100 naked. You know, for some things like you don't have to and you have every right if it feels wrong yeah it probably is you know like there's a moment where you don't feel comfortable, it's probably because something is happening that shouldn't yeah uh, no artist should be using their your number for anything else except your tattoo, like they shouldn't be texting you outside of anything.
Speaker 6:They shouldn't be adding you to apps you know they shouldn't be inappropriate ask like talking about, like, the underwear you're wearing or something like things like that. They shouldn't be doing that. Or even, um, if you're getting work on your, your ribs, and it's under your bra, like, or it's like by your bra area, you don't have to take out your, take off your bra. Yeah, half the time you don't even take off your shirt, you can just roll it up, tuck it in and then that's what we have dental bibs for to protect clothing and we have those barriers for a reason.
Speaker 6:You're not getting major surgery. There's no reason why you need to be in like fully nude, with a drape sheet over you. Like there's no reason for that and I feel as we like, the older clients get it.
Speaker 6:They know, but these younger clients don't know yeah, big time because right now we're in a we're at like we're at a spot in um western tattoo culture where that traditional way of teaching and running a shop is like just ending. We're at the very, very end where, like now these new shops are changing how they run. Now these new shops are backtracking and be like wait, maybe we shouldn't be doing cocaine every night in the shop yeah wait what we shouldn't be partying and doing beers and all that kind of stuff with our clients?
Speaker 6:no, yeah, we shouldn't be offering every young girl in here apprenticeship like yeah, for sure just those things where they're just checking themselves a lot more, yeah, um, which is also super gross because it's like you're still a shitty person.
Speaker 6:You're just now doing it more stealthy you know like and um, it's just really important for us to speak about that too, even when I do um piercings on young folks if they're not, if the no's no, like if a child's six and the parents like, just do it, I'm like no, they said no, we're not doing it. Like, and that's when you teach consent. You know you don't want that uncle to hug you. They don't have to hug you, you can say no yeah exactly.
Speaker 6:If you don't want to wear that two-piece bathing suit at 11, you can say no, that's what you need to really implement. It has to be taught, because I even think I even remember growing up. I just always knew I had to be quiet, don't stir, don't get people mad, don't argue with anything or anybody. You know and that is taught for so many years that you're conditioned like that. So then that follows you into your relationships, that follows you into your work situations where you are like oh no, I better not say no, or you know like or I'll lose my job or he'll get mad, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6:You know I better not speak up for what I want out of this relationship because I might get yelled at or you know I might get hit, or you know, like who knows, like you never know. It's always that sense of fear that if you do speak up, something will happen and you know, and now I'm just like roll up let it happen. I hope you do get mad you know like totally at this point where it's just like yeah, totally gonna happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gina brings up so many powerful points in this clip I'm not going to really go back into them, but you know, I think one thing that was important for me to hear. You can hear me in the recording as we recorded this podcast episode uh, just agreeing and sometimes going, hmm, like you know, I never thought of it that way is what I'm saying in some of those instances. Sometimes I'm saying yeah, but I'm really going, yeah, like, oh, I didn't realize that. So, um, yeah, just important uh for us to have conversations, to think about these things and to begin to let them to percolate and to soak into our minds to inform our work. Yeah, I'm really thankful for Gina in sharing the things that she shared in this clip clip. So go back and have another listen and listen for those things that maybe you weren't aware of in, uh, the things that jane is talking about. Going back to episode 21 with romeo reyes, the fact that it was so normalized.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's so sad and it pissed me off like I mean it's a big reason why I felt the need to transition.
Speaker 4:So for me, uh, I I've always felt that since I was a kid yeah, that like there's I always tell people there's like old family pictures of me running around downtown topless. Yeah, because I didn't give a fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just a little kid. My parents would laugh like ah, you think you're a boy? Yeah, because, and growing up and hearing from the media, what I picked up as a child, from what I saw in the media, was the way the world portrayed women was like second to men. Yeah, we're weaker, like not respected, we're like sexualized or just all these like I felt like the world and life just seemed shitty for women. So that did not resonate with me as a kid. I'm like fuck that. Like yeah, no, I don't want to be, uh, considered weak, I don't want to feel in danger all the time. Like I want the same amount of respect and power and equality as men. Yeah, so that kind of fucked with my head. I'm just like no, I'm, I'm a dude here. Like I feel more like I should be this way. Yeah, um, just because I felt that the world was super unfair for women, and I still continue to feel that way in so many ways.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and when I would hear from other women their experiences, like it's not just in the tattoo industry, it also happened to me in the film industry too, where I had to go through this whole thing with hr for this one um production. Yeah, um, when I mentioned something about what, um, a crew member said to me, yeah, because, like, he saw me and my girlfriend at the time and like, yeah, how hot he thought it was and like how, what did he say? Something along the lines like, oh, I, I would love to watch that, you know. Like, and that pissed me off. That was like our last day on this set and I'm like that's the last thing I want to hear.
Speaker 4:Like, why the fuck did you say that to me? Super inappropriate. Yeah, the fact that I, um, I told my agent, which then connected me to their hr just to talk about the incident. It's like I understood why a lot of women didn't want to come, don't want to come forward with assault. Yeah, because it's like you have to relive telling what has happened. Yeah, and I had to repeat myself so many times to this woman that it was like it's like it was happening again. Yeah, like I had to keep saying what happened.
Speaker 1:Going over it yeah.
Speaker 4:She needed to know every detail and like ask all these other things, and it's like she kept asking me what happened. And because they just want to get like the facts straight and, um, I'm like, oh my god, this is like not even as bad as women who have been actually assaulted. Yeah, um, but damn, like, no wonder they. They don't, they don't want to go through it, because it's like they're opening the wound again, like they're being re-traumatized, yeah, and who knows, in the end, like, will cops actually do anything? Yeah, um, it's like it just seems like victims are not listened to there. There's more rights for the perpetrators or the people who actually do harm.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, yeah, like a lot of things, um, living as a, as a female, like as a kid, as a girl and then as a woman, there's so many things I'm like I can't do this anymore. Like, uh, I was just like there's so many times where, like I I'm not like a lot of trans men, where, or trans guys, like a lot of them hated being women, they didn't connect with it, they hated the way they looked. Yeah, I, I'm not like that. I loved the way I looked as a woman. I just felt like, okay, well, if I'm gonna live as a girl, I like I want to be hot. Yeah, I'm just gonna be like androgynous or whatever, like I want to be comfortable in my own skin but also appreciate it.
Speaker 4:yeah, and I learned to love myself that way and that's why it was hard for me to decide to actually go forward with transitioning. Yeah, because I also love to sing, so it's like it affects your voice and, yeah, um, but a big thing, big deciding factor, was knowing that like I could not step outside my house another day, experiencing what I experience as a female. Wow, like I would get ready and do the makeup and the clothes and be like, oh, I feel good. Yeah, like I'm ready to go out. I'm like, wait, no, I was catcalled the other day and it pissed me off. I'm like I can't do that today. I'm not, I'm just not going to step outside my house. Wow, so for a long time I'm like, naturally very like fair-skinned and like pale and like my old photos of being female, like plus, being blonde.
Speaker 1:I looked like so pale Because I was literally not going outside.
Speaker 4:And I felt that feeling unsafe held me back in so many ways. Um, I felt like I had to pull a, put a wall up, um, when speaking to men. Yeah, um, and and even into me, transitioning and appearing more male. I had to learn to uh, pull, pull back on that wall and feel safe to interact with men, because in the past, I've always felt, um, like women have strong intuition. Yeah, um, I felt a lot of the times when I would interact with men, there would be some other underlying intention and I would feel like uncomfortable, unsafe.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and me as a guy, like I noticed how it's so different. Like when I talk to guys, it's I don't feel that threat necessarily or, yeah, you know, they have any bad intentions with me, and it was something I needed to get used to. I'm like, whoa, guys are actually very kind to each other. Um, this, this is cool. Like I never really had a chance to see men in that light. Um, I mean, I would like there I came across like men who are kind, yeah, like genuine, but a lot of the times I was just like, oh, this guy like he's being nice because he wants something or whatever, and um, yeah, like, so now I just have so much respect and adoration for women who get into industries that are male dominated or were once male dominated. Yeah, because I know how much shit they have to go through to do their work or just prove themselves worthy or to even just be heard. Yeah, I find now that I appear male, I'm easily just I feel heard right away, without even trying.
Speaker 4:Yeah, before, it's like I would have to repeat myself or I just I don't know in order to like be respected or be taken seriously, and yeah, so, like me living in this male privileged life now, I feel so much more for the women who are still women. I'm like, damn, it's a hard life to exist as a woman in this world. Yeah, like I joke with my friends, I say like if I did not transition, I'd probably be in jail right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I was just so pissed off as a girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:The next guy to like catcall me or whatever, I would have done something. You're going down, so I think transitioning has, like you know, saved a few lives. Yeah. Yeah, like sometimes I think I'm like I don't know how women haven't yet started some crazy revolution where they were just like going berserk and like offing some dudes.
Speaker 4:But yeah, cause like I just I, just it was, it was too much for me. So, yeah, I have so much respect for, uh, women who still put up with shit or just like, or they're flipping the script and they're making big change and, like I, I do notice that there are changes coming and like better conditions for women, but it's still there's still a long way to go. Yeah, big time, um, but yeah, like I, I do feel like I'm grateful for having lived that life and having the privilege to experience being a woman. Yeah, and now experiencing this.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, um, just getting this unique point of view this is another clip where I was uh able to uh borrow romeo's eyes and to see into the life that Romeo has led. And it's important for us again to borrow other people's eyes through podcasts, through conversations, through books, to be able to understand where other people are coming from and to understand that just because it doesn't relate to us or we don't know it, or because it's not part of our experience, doesn't mean that it's not true. So, to honor our own subjectivity, we need to look into the subjectivity of other people's experiences, and just because I'm saying subjectivity doesn't mean that that reality isn't true. I'm saying that their experience of reality is what we're looking for, because that is what's true. So looking into their objective understanding of the world through their subjectivity is what we're actually looking at. So this was a gift to me from Romeo to continue in my journey of understanding of how to operate in the world.
Speaker 1:Because the reality is that I'm still learning and I'm relearning, and why I say I'm learning and I'm relearning is because I have learned in the past, but I continue to uncover my own prejudices.
Speaker 1:I continue to speak in ways that marginalize people, I continue to speak and act in ways that are harmful or unsafe and, as I continually, those things are uncovered and unveiled to my understanding. I then have the opportunity to change those things. And also, I would say that having the humility to be corrected is also important in these conversations, because that's how we change. If we don't have the humility to say, oh yeah, I fucked up, it's time to change. And that's also the reality as well, is that, yes, maybe you did fuck up, but don't continue to fuck up in the same way. Change the way that you're acting, and that's how we help everyone in this world to feel the same safety that we feel, the privilege that we have in this world. So again, we're going back to episode 16 with gina dunbar and that was around the me too movement where I was super vocal about that.
Speaker 6:I ended up getting interviewed um by the news press. Because I was so vocal about it, because so many tattoo artists in our city were getting outed and we are female artists, so we're hearing about it from our clients. So then I didn't shut up about it. I anybody would listen, I would talk about these users, and so I was pretty blacklisted.
Speaker 6:And it's funny too, as soon as you start talking about setting up for these clients and you have proof that these people are exploiting their clients and using them inappropriately, how uncomfortable your male co-workers get speaks volumes like volumes and when as soon as all that stuff came out, even about r kelly in one shop, like I had the first shop I was at, they were defending him and I'm like, oh, there's like literally videos like it's yeah it's, it's like it's world. We're now known that yeah he is a pedophile, but they were still, you know, like yeah demanding it that no, he was innocent. His slander and yeah there's moments like that where it's like why am I working in this shop?
Speaker 1:you know, and there was a lot of those moments, you know um, another great clip from episode 16 with gina dunbar uh, one of the things at the end here that I just want to emphasize and bring up is, you know, by continuing to stay in spaces that are unsafe and dangerous for our communities is a way of supporting those things.
Speaker 1:So step out of them, take a step out and ensure that you know. If you feel comfortable, then let them know. Hey, these are the reasons why I'm leaving, because this is an unsafe space for my community, my clients, etc. And if you don't feel safe to talk about those things, that's okay, because I have to also honor the fact that each person has their own comfort level with some of these things. But taking yourself out of that space and not supporting it, uh is one of the first steps as well in uh creating safe and sacred spaces, because then you don't allow your clients to be connected with those people uh in the future. So we're going into episode 22 with naomi king it's like you're in a very vulnerable, vulnerable position.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 7:And things are definitely getting better, but I know like so many studios are so just toxic and you just feel unsafe. Yeah, so many stories of, like, one of my best friends. She got a sternum piece here and the guy was basically like, oh, you should take your bra off. It's like don't really need to for that placement. But okay, you know you stick the things on yeah she said the entire time he was tattooing her.
Speaker 7:He was just making inappropriate comments and, like all the other male tattooers were coming over and like you know it, just it feels very predatory and it's like they know how uncomfortable you're making this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they just don't give a shit um, but yeah, there's more and more shops now that are just they don't want any of that behavior just another example of someone stepping into a space and making made to feel unsafe and to feel like it's a dangerous space and very predatory in terms of not only the actions of the artist but also the actions of the co-workers. And so, yes, like she said, sometimes you do need to unclothe but, you know, put pasties on, do everything that you can to ensure that that person feels safe and to ensure that you are working at trauma informedinformed way. You know, inform yourself about what that means and the processes that it takes to get there. And then, even if you do have to have someone unclothed and they do have pasties on or they have a drape over top of them, put up a you know a wall, you know a security wall, a privacy wall, a privacy barrier so that they don't have to worry about everyone else walking by.
Speaker 1:And then I would also say, in the time and the space of, you know, cell phones and cameras etc. Is that that person's privacy is also kept close, because you never know, somebody who's being tattooed may record them in that vulnerable space. You know, I do a lot of recording of my own practice, but I always make sure that the people are comfortable with that process and that practice and I honor the way that they would like to be represented and I also make sure that anything that I put out would not put them or make them feel potentially feel like they were being exploited and or I always endeavor to make sure that they would not be embarrassed in some way by what I post about them or the practice or the journey that we took together. So, yeah, just some thoughts there as we move forward into creating protected and sacred spaces.
Speaker 6:Going back to episode 16 with Gina Dunbar, and then when you do challenge things or you bring it up like, hey, why are you tattooing that Sailor Jerry native head Like why are you? Doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And they're like oh, it's tradition, it's like honoring, it's like honoring who yeah? Some guy Like who cares. So now I'm really like careful. Who I hang up Like, who takes up space in my walls, in my space? Yeah, when does my money go to? Who am I spending money at? Which conventions am I supporting? Are they ran by gangs?
Speaker 6:you know, like is my money funding hurting women? Is it funding fentanyl in these, in native gangs is running gun. You know like I think of all that stuff now and which is extremely important because this stuff has been taking over our industry for far too long yeah and it's just been never talked about because it's scary.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and it's scary to talk about the me too, me too. And it's scary to get vocal about it because it can put you in danger and it can get you isolated. But you know what's more scary? It continually to happen. Yeah that's scary hell yeah especially now that I have, like nieces and nephews and they're getting into art and I know one of them's going to be a tattoo artist I can like already see it, I can see it and I'm just like I don't want this to still be a thing yeah, I want there to be spaces where they know.
Speaker 6:I want them to be educated that they know to stay away from these shops yeah, those things to look for, yeah, big time and then even, like I'm already, telling them cleanliness of a shop, because now they're interested in getting piercings and I'm like the first thing you go into a shop, ask, go to the bathroom.
Speaker 1:If they're not cleaning up their bathroom, they're cutting corners everywhere else yeah, big time the main places that like clients are.
Speaker 6:If they're not cleaning that area, then they're not cleaning other places you know like big time just small things like that, um, even educating clients. When I have people coming in for their first tattoo or the first piercings, I'll explain the setup and I'll be like this is the indicator that it went through and it's sterile if it's not this color? It's not, you know. Yeah, um, this is how they should be prepping the skin.
Speaker 6:If they're not cleaning your skin, if they're not shaving you yeah get out of there you know, like they're just really cutting corners um, or even simple things like setting up with no gloves yeah there's so many times where I've worked with people and they're setting up and tearing down like well, they'll tear down with gloves, but then they'll spray cavicide and then they'll wipe with no glove and I'm like what is happening here, like it's just it's. I think people become very used to how they work, or they get lazy, or they feel like yeah, lazy yeah yeah, and then.
Speaker 6:So there's just things like that, where if we can tell our clients and maintain it, then they'll know like well, I've gone to three shops and you're the only person that's like properly sterilized me and marked me yeah or you're the only person that like. Just the other day I had a girl, uh had a woman that was said like oh, you're the first person that shaved me and she was like covered in tattoos and I'm like what? I'm like that's like a mandatory thing like you're supposed to shave the hair off your leg?
Speaker 6:like yeah so yeah yeah, and then some of them won't even think about it because they don't know right, but now, she knows yeah, big time, a lot of good stuff in this clip, uh, from gina dunbar.
Speaker 1:One thing that I wanted to highlight here, uh, that really uh tweaked uh, as I've listened to it probably the fourth or fifth time now uh, but the one thing that I wanted to emphasize is that this work is not only about this work of creating safe and sacred spaces or protected spaces.
Speaker 1:It's not only about your workspace, but also leaving a legacy for your nieces, your nephews, your nibbles, and also for creating these spaces for the coming generations, because if we don't start to work in a way, speak in a way, educate, in a way that transforms the tattoo industry, the ancestral skin marking space, it will be that job will be left for the next generation. When we make these things clear and evident and out there, then we have an opportunity to change them. So, really, you're doing this work for the next generations, not just for your own practice, not just for today, but you will be making an impact for the coming generations. Today, but you will be making an impact for, uh, the coming generations. Just wanted to highlight that because, uh, it's something that I just picked up on as I listened to this clip again.
Speaker 6:So, going back to episode 16 with gina dunbar and I feel that even you need to check your co-workers too, because there's a few times where I've been working along shops and I'm like oh wow, blah, blah, blah is really going into blah blah's room a lot, so I go check it out. Yeah, she's in a thong laid out you know like it's like usually he never goes in and checks on that other co-worker's work, and then now, four times today, he's gone in that room, you know, or.
Speaker 6:I remember my female co-worker was getting tattooed by another co-worker and then another co-worker came in and it was on their sternum and he, just like, while she was getting her chest tattooed, he took his finger and, just like, grabbed the cusp of her bra and pulled it down to look further while she was sitting in the chair.
Speaker 6:Wow and we were all like I remember making eye contact, we were all baffled that that happened, that just happened, you know, like there was just a moment where we were like what the hell? And I feel too as female, like our femme presenting folks in a shop, we can also be subjected to things too, not just our clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 6:There's a lot of times where I worked at this one shop and I've been on the front computer multiple times. I answered their emails. I ran all that stuff. Then, as soon as my coworker came out and my boss was on that computer, all of a sudden porn popped up. Yeah, and it's just like porn's never boss was on that computer. All of a sudden porn popped up. Yeah, and it's just like porn's never popped up on that computer the five years that I've worked here, you deliberately was feeling, was feeling things out you know, like, and right away she was like what the hell?
Speaker 6:yeah so it's just like you can even be in an area where you think that these people are looking out for you, but no, you're just, they're also coming after you, yeah you know, so like that's something, too, that you can acknowledge as well. Or even I remember being told like, oh, you should go get your hair done, you should go get new, like new clothes.
Speaker 1:And I'm just like bro, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah like whatever.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's just those. Those comments to you are not okay as well, so just a thought, yeah.
Speaker 1:So just some examples from gina of experiences that she's had in the tattoo industry, of examples of people creating unsafe and dangerous places for herself and her co-workers, as well as clients. And so I always check in with people, even when I'm, you know, doing a work and I don't have the privacy barriers up. You know, sometimes, especially when we're in sensitive areas and people have indicated that they don't want the privacy barriers up, I always check in and say are you okay with somebody coming to check in or asking a question or coming up and coming into our space? I always try to do that. And then another thing is also to let clients know. Like I've said to coworkers, hey, maybe come back in a little bit. Like I've said to co-workers hey, maybe come back in a little bit.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just protecting that space that you have your client or your collaborator in. And then also ensuring that you're creating that protected space for your co-workers and sometimes you have to check your other co-workers Like, hey, maybe that's not an appropriate thing to say, or hey, that's making me feel uncomfortable. It's making us feel uncomfortable, however you want to phrase it, or hey, that's not acceptable. Some really quick, easy things. I know sometimes these things are challenging to do, but again, we're doing these things for the coming generation. So we're going back to episode 22 with Naomi King.
Speaker 7:To hold them accountable as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 7:I worked with a guy who, like he was fun at first and then he started to kind of like steal people's clients. But my issue with him was the fact that he started to just like say things about his clients Like he was either hitting on younger girls or he was tattooing a trans client. And then the next day I heard him just complaining like oh, come on, I just like don't want to tattoo a man in a dress, and he was just saying stuff like that and I was like well then, why did you take this person as a client Like you're doing it just for the money and now you're just spilling out this toxic energy into something that's going to be on them forever.
Speaker 7:Like, trust me, they didn't want to get tattooed by you If they knew who you were they wouldn't have done it yet. And then he was all inappropriate. So I wrote up this perfectly worded thing and I got my coworkers to sign it and I handed it to the owner of the shop and she had no choice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that, yeah, I was like he's a crap person so another good example of some of the steps that you could take if you are working in a space where somebody is speaking inappropriately, uh, being uh a bit creepy in terms of, you know, hitting on clients, etc. Because that's not really the place to be doing that type of thing. If that happens outside of the shop, then that is what it is. But you know, when people are in that vulnerable space, in that vulnerable place, not an appropriate place to be doing those those things that are acceptable in other places, I always say that the context is important here. So flirting with somebody, hitting on somebody, you know that is a perfectly, you know, regular thing. That happens.
Speaker 1:But the context of being tattooed and being in a vulnerable place, because you know your nervous system is shot, because of the pain that your body is going through, maybe your mind isn't completely clear, because you've just went through a traumatic experience of having your skin traumatized, you know all of those things play into the reasons why those things aren't appropriate in the context of tattooing. Those things happen after, fine, that is perfectly acceptable. But these are the reasons why they're not appropriate here. And then Naomi also brings up the reality that you know there are steps that you can take to ensure that those people number one don't work in your space or you leave the space, but ensure that in no way that you stay in a space that accepts those things. So in this final section we'll be sharing strategies and protocols for developing and creating safe and sacred spaces or protected spaces.
Speaker 3:So we're going to episode 31 with Jacqueline Merritt and I always want to create an open space with my time. Like before we go into my um marking session, I always tell the people that connect with me. It's like this is your space. If you have emotions, come up, let them come. Like we have like smudge we can smudge with, or I can just be sitting here and letting you do what you need to do. Yeah, um, but there's no time limit and I'm here to be with you in it as well as myself, where I'm like hey, I need it, like I break yeah
Speaker 1:and to honor my time, but also there let a lot of that anxiety and that rashness away and it really helped to be grounded in what we were doing, but also just to be witnessing ourselves in that moment some great thoughts here from, uh, jacqueline, just uh, you know, I think one thing as a new practitioner a lot of times you're excited, a lot of times you really want to get that piece done, get through it, uh, but I I think the things that Jackie is saying or Jacqueline is saying here is to slow down, to be a witness of the space and the time that you're holding with somebody through the work. And then also, I think the thing that really was clicked in my mind that Jackie's talking about is also being transparent and allowing people, or letting people know, communicating transparently about what's going to happen, what your process is. And we'll go further into that, especially with Jackie, as Jackie talks about her practice of ancestral skin marking and creating safe and sacred spaces. So we're going back into episode 31 with Jacqueline Merritt.
Speaker 3:What does that look for me? Because I think it's that healing journey of my own boundaries. Because of what I grew up with and, being the oldest sister, I feel like I had no boundaries. I was like I'm here, to please everybody and accommodate whatever I can, which really impacted myself and my health, and then into point my tattooing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so to create those boundaries, I definitely, um, I found that visuals work really great in having, um, those reminders or guidelines when, I tattoo and make it um forefront and saying, hey, if we're doing a tattoo, I need you to understand that, when you're with me, this is our time together and that I can't be like, oh, I need to get this tattoo done in an hour, that you need to respect this time, and that is like a ceremony that it could take all day, or it could just take an hour, like a ceremony that it could take all day or it could just take an hour, yeah, and that also, when coming in, you know like be ready for it, you know be comfortable, feel comfortable, and if you're not, maybe if you party or do drugs, that I would expect you to be, um, not in the under the influence when coming in and really stating that as well, and you know, being able to like take care of themselves fully, mind, body and spirit, before we share space.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I understood too how much I get impacted. Yeah, but as well as my family, because usually I tattoo in our home. Yeah, so wanting them to respect myself and their self and then creating that connection, and then when they do, it's just like the medicine, I don't want to say, but like the magic, the feelings, the energy it's just so much more smoother and forgiving where I find maybe there's something that's off balance and those boundaries aren't respected either on my side or theirs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like my back is hurting yeah um the tattoo ink spilled or something like that and that those are like those little reminders.
Speaker 3:I'm like, okay, how do I find that balance again, what do I need to do? Like hey, can we step back? Yeah, let's have a snack or some water and then we'll go back into it. Um, and that definitely has grounded me. Um, it's almost like leave my ego, my, my own ego at the door of like hey, you got to complete this and this isn't. It's just like no, this is just a space of to be together and to create connection.
Speaker 1:Some more awesome uh words from Jackie. As we talk about this process of creating safe and protected spaces. Jackie talks about being really clear about expectations and setting boundaries. I think this is really powerful as practitioners to set those clear boundaries in terms of respecting your own time, but also the boundaries that you aren't going to cross going the other way. So when you set those expectations that is the process of communication and a process of consent as well of setting up those boundaries in terms of like, hey, here are the things that I expect and these are the things that you can expect from me, and Jackie really talks about making those forefront.
Speaker 1:And so Jackie does a really good job of setting up the expectations that she has if you're going to come into her space and I so. I think that's a really powerful testimony and a really powerful example, which I'm actually now as I was re-watching this again a lesson that I have to take to set out very clearly, especially on my social media these are the expectations that I have, these are my processes for booking in, etc. So I'm going to have to get on top of that and to make those things really forefront in my own practice. So I'm thankful for the things that I'm learning and, as I said in the beginning, relearning my own practices and setting these things up again and again so we can learn and relearn these things.
Speaker 3:Going back to episode 31 with Jacqueline Merritt and the importance part of like wanting to put out my boundaries or guidelines or way to connect to me or help create understanding, because it's not really out there, yeah, it's not really known, yeah, and a lot of times for other tattooers it's always like I think, especially for different, it's like we're just this, it's almost like this transaction, only space. It's like, okay, I give you this, you give this to me, and we're good, yeah. But now I'm finding like, hey, if we're wanting to connect, this is what it means to connect with me. Yeah To you know, arrive on time to pay a deposit so that I can help respect that time for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And hold that accountable for my supplies. Yeah, to know that you know. If there's other people coming, give me a heads up so I know how to accommodate for that space.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I find, with that, then we both know the expectations and understanding. Yeah, and if that for the person who's reaching out, maybe that doesn't, you know, connect with them, then that's okay. Yeah, you know, connect with them, then that's okay. Yeah, that for the ones who want our connecting, then that aligns with them, then that's meant to be and we're able to create that space together.
Speaker 1:Again, some awesome comments from Jackie about her own practice and making those things evident.
Speaker 1:Again, it's really clear to me how each of these practitioners, each of these tattoo artists, each of these practitioners, each of these tattoo artists ancestral skin markers are emphasizing the fact that, in making clear their boundaries and making clear their processes and the things that people need to know about the way that they work, is actually doing a service to the community, not only for their own practice, but so people can have a look and say, hey, I never thought about that. Like, this boundary that Jackie is setting up is so that she feels respected and I'm respecting her time just the way that I expect her to respect my time. I'm doing that for her and I think that making those things evident is also part of protecting your own spirit, part of making and ensuring that your practice is a safe space and a protected space for you in the work that you do. So, yeah, just some thoughts that come forward as I listen to this clip from Jackie. So we're going back to episode 31 with Jacqueline Merritt.
Speaker 3:I definitely feel even stadium safe space and a lot of you know my social media posts or when I'm connecting to people is I feel like a lot of times our people had to be solid and like stiff and like calm and cool and collected and really in, and I feel like we're not able to receive the markings very well when we're too inside ourselves, yeah, and then with myself as a marker too, is like I can't be like this cause I'm too stiff and I hurt myself. So creating that safe space is like hey, if you're needing, if motions come, let it come. Like this is your space to be able to feel, feel, to able to feel seen and to be validated in that. And then people are like what does that mean? Right?
Speaker 1:what does that?
Speaker 3:feel like because I can look back to, when I got like, um, my, you know basic traditional bass, sorry, um, for my regular gun tattoo at a tattoo shop, yeah, and I went in like, oh, this is going to represent all of this and all this hurt and kind of stuff I was dealing with, but I can't show fear and I can't cry and I can't express.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I was just stiff, laying there and just like inside myself, to my body, because I felt safe and protected there. But it hurt more. The healing process was achy, more I found, yeah, and I find, with my traditional tattoos, when I'm opened and like calm and I'm able to go through the different emotions, and it's not always about the pain of the skin, but it's about what it represents for myself. Yeah, um, and with, like my tattoo work, I'm very intentional in what I'm putting on my body, but also what it represents.
Speaker 3:So I think there's a lot of hurt, love, um, and letting go, some of that stuff. Like I feel like when we're like etching the skin, it's just like release and awakening, and so there's a lot of that grief as well with it. Um, and I find creating that space, we're saying, hey, it's okay to feel that, yeah, it's okay to be seen and heard in your time of healing, and I think a lot of time we haven't been able to be like that, yeah, and have that. And when I'm able to create that, there's just like this flow of energy that's coming within myself and the person that is getting tattooed and it's just like and that's why I stayed it's like ceremony yeah it's like a sweat lodge.
Speaker 3:You're vulnerable, you're in this dark ace and you're sharing your feelings and your heart and you know you're wanting that, but you're also being protected and saying, hey, it's okay. Yeah, and after we're doing that, we're like oh yeah, protected, and saying, hey, it's okay, yeah, and after we're doing that we're like oh, yeah and some of the stuff I helped to kind of cleanse us, but it's definitely having our traditional medicines.
Speaker 3:Sins in the space. Um, between sage juniper, sweet grass, um, I have stone to help create some grounding, yeah, um, as well as some music and hand drumming and prayer, but I always leave it up to the person I'm sharing that space because I don't want to push on anything they don't feel connected to. Yeah, and I always check in and be like, hey, what do you need at this time?
Speaker 3:yeah um, sometimes it's just some fresh air and opening the window and letting that breeze come through. So I definitely been fortunate enough to know how to create that safe space, but also learn with the people I'm sharing with what that looks like and being open.
Speaker 1:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on Ko-Ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:So the things that we just heard in this last clip with Jacqueline Merritt, I think are important because, especially if you are creating your space and understanding the rubric or the reality that our ancestral skin marking can be a place and a space of healing you know we talk about this idea of tattoo medicine. Yeah, it's important to understand that you are opening it up and letting your clients know that, hey, this is a protected space that you can let yourself go, and I'm going to make sure that I honor your time, your energy, your spirit and allow you to do the work that you need to do internally. Yeah, just a powerful quote. And also another important thing that Jackie highlights here that I keyed in my mind was the process of honoring the comfort level of the person that you're working with, because maybe not everybody is comfortable with smudge, not everybody's comfortable with the music that you're trying to share, so allowing that to be present in your work is also important. So, again, we're going back to episode 31 with Jacqueline Merritt.
Speaker 3:I think I was focusing I like to focus a lot more on the emotional, mental space of safe space. But if we dive in more into the physical, it's like have the blood pathogens aspect of it, making sure our space is clean. You know needles and how we're doing our practice and process, and I think that importance too of that slowing it down was really important for me. Yeah, because I might miss a step or something or something may drop. So not only my attention to create that can save space for the individual emotionally and mentally, but also physically to know that you know, whatever, whatever I'm doing, I'm having cleanly needles, I'm making sure that their skin's going to be taken care of, that there's no, um, blood-borne pathogens that are going to be mixed up in diseases that I'm like. Oh, I'm going to do the best that I can with your vulnerability of your physical, mental and emotional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this is a really important uh point that jack Jackie brings up in terms of creating protected and safe spaces for the work that we do as ancestral skin markers and professional tattoo artists, is the health aspects of tattooing.
Speaker 1:So a lot of times people focus on a lot of the emotional and the spiritual and all of those pieces and the spiritual and all of those pieces.
Speaker 1:But if we aren't at the foundation and the bedrock, worried about the health aspects of tattooing and that is part of the physical, the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual If we aren't focused on that physical part of the work of ancestral skin marking and professional tattooing, then the rest of it falls away because we are not at the very base, respecting that person's integrity as a human being, as a being who could be made sick or hurt through our practice. So, making sure that you are doing everything within your process, the protocols that you have up to honor the health aspects of tattooing are just as important and just as integral to creating safe and protective spaces. So if you don't know about bloodborne pathogens, if you don't know about cross-contamination, if you don't know about cross-contamination, if you don't know about sterilization and disinfection and what are those differences and those things. Then you have to do more work and you're safe Actually, isn't? Your space is not actually safe, sacred or protected. So take the steps to learn those things.
Speaker 7:So, going back to episode 22 with Naomi King, and it was nice, because the last time I went to see Lane Wilkin, when I came to the house, there was somebody getting batak like in the middle of the living room and there was so many people and I was like, oh God, this is the setup. I don't know if I can do this Like I know other people. And then I went to the kitchen we were talking and eventually he was like oh, let's go talk in this room. I went to this small room and there was a setup on the floor and I didn't really clue into it. I was like, okay, somebody else is getting tattooed in here.
Speaker 7:And eventually he was like, oh, we set this up for you so that you would feel more like safe Cause. He knows about all my trauma. And he was like there's also a bathroom right there, because when I go into shock, it really helps me to like run my hands under warm water. And he knew that like he had this whole thing set up and I just like I cried. I was like I feel so seen.
Speaker 1:So this is an example of how the process of my colleague and friend, Lane Wilkin, who's a Botox practitioner pre-Philippine ancestral skin marker ancestral skin marker Some of the processes that Lane and his team takes to make sure that people feel safe and understand that they're actually in a protected space, that they have taken steps to ensure that that person moves into this work in a way that people feel safe in stepping into this work and going through the processes that they need to go through to do the work that they need to do internally in terms of healing, in terms of connecting to themselves, in terms of working through the trauma and letting the marks do the work that they need to do. Going back to episode 22 with Naomi King Well, yeah, was that's another thing.
Speaker 7:Privacy berries, even that, just like it helps, being a little bit more like yeah, safe as opposed to just.
Speaker 4:I don't know again.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking of the eagle call just you know, it's so empty we're just just so vulnerable getting tattooed.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I feel like it is like literally just having nice walls around you almost feels safer yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Here's an example of a strategy, uh, that you could take from uh, the example of lane wilkin, you know, setting up a, uh, private room for the work that they were doing with naomi. But in the context of, say, uh, for example, the work that I do at HFX in Bedford, nova Scotia, you know it is an open concept studio, so everybody, you know it's like a cavern so you can look down and you can see everything that's going on, you can see what everyone's doing. So a lot of times I'll put up those privacy barriers. I'll'll check in beforehand. Sometimes I'll just put them up because I know the work that we're going to be doing, I know the journey that person has taken in their life and they need to be, and sometimes that's even if we're going to do a sleeve. I'll put them up because I know that that person's journey has been one that needs that little bit of security. And sometimes I won't put the wall up completely, you know I'll put it up halfway so that people who are walking by know that hey, this isn't a place for me to come into and they'll check in if they need to. But yeah, so those are just some strategies that you can use to set up your shop in a way that protects the work that you're doing, and so that could be a full privacy, so that you're completely contained in that place. And then the second thing is you could just put up half of that privacy wall so that people understand that, hey, this isn't open for you just to walk in and to have a look at what's going on.
Speaker 1:As I come to the end of this episode, I just wanted to highlight some resources so that you can inform yourself about your practice. The first one is a book by Tamara Santibanez called Could this Be Magic Tattooing as Liberation Work, a really powerful book about the work of tattooing, professional tattooing, and how it can be a transformational, liberational work. But it also talks about all of the topics that we've talked about in creating safe and protective spaces in tattooing. And it's available for free on Tamera's website as a digital download. But I would encourage you, if you are able to and you have the privilege of having financial stability, to purchase it from Tamera. If you don't have the ability and financial stability at the moment to pick it up and to pay for the digital download of the book, you can access it for free, but if you are in a place financially to be able to support the work of Tamara, I would encourage you to purchase it. I believe it's out of print at this time. I was thankful to be able to pick it up right away because I heard about the book before it came out, and so I ordered it and I got it as soon as it was printed. It's a powerful book and I have suggested it to people I've mentored and other practitioners. So, again, tamara Santibanez, could this be magic tattooing as liberation work? And I believe her website is, or their website is their name, tamara Santibanez. But if you look it up and you look up the book title, you'll be able to pick that up, no problem.
Speaker 1:So the second resource is from, again, tamara Santibana's website. It's a pamphlet about informed consent and trauma-aware tattooing, again available there as a free download. Go check it out and I'll just give you a quick overview of what the pamphlet says, but I would encourage you to head over there, pick it up and have it available in your shop. This pamphlet goes through the question of what is informed consent, and in the first sentence it says that we assume that when a person steps into a tattoo shop, they're consenting to be tattooed. But again, as we explored in the podcast with the other voices in the podcast, with my past guests, that consent is a continual process of continuation of consent. That happens again and again throughout the process. So, yeah, just checking in, always checking in. And then the next question is what is a trauma-aware approach? The first sentence in this paragraph says a trauma-aware or trauma-informed approach means that we are aware of the experiences people may be showing up with and are prepared to encounter that.
Speaker 1:I think that my work in the Intacot Mc Black Work project, the beginning of the creation of Intercontinental Black Work, made me keenly aware that I had to begin to inform myself about these realities that people might be showing up to, especially when you're going into creating a full bodysuit. The next thing is what does this look like? They do a bullet points of communicating clearly create spaces for collaboration. Another thing that is brought forward is be aware of nonverbal cues as well as spoken feedback. Yeah, there's just a variety of important things to look for. I'm just giving you a quick overview so that you can go check it out Again. This is a free resource. Affirm the client's priorities and design and placement you know we can make our own professional suggestions as to technical application, design and placement, but ultimately the question should be do you like this versus? I think this is best? Again, just some powerful little suggestions.
Speaker 1:Another sentence that I'm picking out here is bear in mind that a client may not always be sure about getting tattooed. A tattoo is a permanent commitment and change to one's appearance and it's important to afford that decision the weight it deserves. So, yeah, if a client has second thoughts, bear that in mind that, hey, maybe this isn't the right time for them and be okay with them, you know, having the time and space to question that for themselves. Another comment is to be mindful of privacy, preferences and physical comfort, as well as negotiating consent around touch throughout the process or offer clients privacy screens if they would like them, even if the area they are having tattooed isn't your definition of a private area. Everyone's definition of and level of comfort around this are different. Yeah, different opportunities. Offer to have them lay down to be tattooed rather than to sit if it is more comfortable for them or will help them relax more easily.
Speaker 1:Again, verbalize before you begin that the client can ask for a break at any point they feel they need to, or would like one, check in with them throughout the process if they need a break. And I also like to emphasize that, if you need it, there is a room, a bathroom, a room that you can go into, that's private, that you can lock the door if you need to at any time throughout the process of being tattooed. Um, yeah, just let me know, or just ask for a break, and you have free access to, uh, the bathroom or a room that can be locked. So if you need to just uh bring yourself back to center, you have that opportunity. Also, be respectful of the client's privacy in conversation.
Speaker 1:Don't assume it's okay to ask what the original tattoo means or how they got it. What might be a typical conversation starter for artists at work might not be appropriate for all clients. Artists at work might not be appropriate for all clients and then allow the client to share if they feel like they'd like to. So one thing is not to ask those direct questions about those things just to allow the client to share if that's what they would like to have the conversation revolve around. I know it's like a common question. Hey, what is this about? Especially when you look at reality TV. They really emphasize the drama and the trauma around people getting tattooed, the reasons and memorials, etc. But that's not always necessarily the most appropriate way to engage with this conversation.
Speaker 1:And then a few extra little tips about active listening, pay attention, repeat, acknowledge, clarify. So again, you are taking the reality that you are the one with power in this situation to heart and you are actively listening to what people are saying. You're paying attention to the words that they're saying, the non-verbal cues that they're giving you, and then you're also repeating that you know. A clear example is that, oh, this is what I heard you say, is that correct? And then you're acknowledging, to allow that person to know that you're listening, and then you're clarifying if you don't understand something, it's important to go oh, what do you mean by that? Or tell me more about that? Those are two phrases that I like to use to help that person to bring whatever they're saying into clear focus for you, because you again are each approaching things from your own subjectivities and helping to clarify as helping them to be understood and to be listened to. So again, awesome, awesome resource from Tamara. Go check it out on their website and it's a free download for the processes of informed consent.
Speaker 1:The next resource that Tamara has on their website is the Client Bill of Rights poster. So again, here's another free download on Tamara's website. It's the Client Bill of Rights and it's a powerful little thing that you can put up in your shop so people know. You know we talked about with nate in this episode about having things, symbols, available. So, whether that's the, the, the pride flag or the trans flag, helping people to know that you are informed about some of the concerns and issues that people from these communities might have Well, here's a client bill of rights that allows people to know your expectations. You know, coming back to what Jackie was talking about like here is a clear process of being transparent, of what you can expect as a client in this establishment and in this practice. So we'll just jump into that and I'll give you an example of what's happening there. Again, the Client Bill of Rights free download on Tamara Santibanez's website.
Speaker 1:The first in the nine sections of the Bill of Rights, the Client Bill of Rights, is the right to a clean and comfortable environment that follows best practices for health and safety. Number two the right to equal treatment and service regardless of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, physical ability or health status status. Three the right to respectful communication, including the right to be addressed by your preferred name and correct pronouns, and the right to be in an environment free of hate speech or verbal harassment. Number four the right to an artist technically and stylistically suited to your tattoo request or a reference to someone who is. Number five the right to ask clarifying questions about the tattoo process and technical decisions that go into a design or placement limitation, and to have them answered with patience and respect. Number six the right to be asked for approval as to your final design and regarding changes your artist may consider during your tattoo session. Number seven the right to be asked for consent about physical contact and touch needed to perform your tattoo, including the adjustment or a removal of clothing. The right to request and to be provided with provisions toward your personal privacy and comfort to the best ability of the artist in the shop. And then, number nine the right to have your accessibility needs met to the best ability of the artist in the shop. And then, number nine the right to have your accessibility needs met to the extent that the shop and artists are able to provide them, or a referral to a shop or artist who can best meet those needs. And number 10 I said there were nine, I guess there's 11, uh, number 10. The Number 10, the right to confidentiality around personal and private information, including the right to be asked for consent before photos of you are taken or posted. And number 11, the right to self-advocacy to speak up and be heard if anything during your session or in regards to your overall shop experience does not feel right. And so the credits are Tamara Santibanez and Kay Lenore Siner. Just another resource for you to pick up and to have available in your shop and to inform yourself about some of these things that need to go forward in the work that we do as professional tattoo artists.
Speaker 1:When I think about this client bill of rights, of course some of these things could be different as a practitioner that need to be negotiated with your ancestral skin marker or your cultural tattoo practitioner. Many times when you go into some of these spaces, there are appropriate designs for you and inappropriate designs for you, and because you don't have that knowledge, sometimes the practitioner can help you navigate that. But then that's also a discussion and a conversation, not just an assertion of the authority of the practitioner. A lot of times, throughout the process of consultation with a client or a collaborator, I'll ask them like hey, what's your story? Where are you from? What are your hopes and dreams of what this tattoo is going to embody? And then, because of my understanding of my ancestral visual language, I'll create a piece that honors that conversation and that person's story. In the past, people have asked me to tweak things a little bit. A lot of times I'll give two designs and then we can tweak and move those together. I've done that in the past and then sometimes we have to go back to the drawing board because it doesn't fit them, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't have the right fit and flow, which is also part of that process and part of honoring and creating a safe and protective space to allow for this work, this transformational work of ancestral skin marking.
Speaker 1:The last resource that I'm going to bring forward is the Instagram page Change Tattooing, and I'm just going to have a quick look through this process of change tattooing. One of the things here is ways to make a tattoo studio a safe space. It says that this is not intended to be an exhaustive checklist of practices to implement to create a safe space is a list of suggestions for practices that can help improve the safety of a tattooing space. You can help create a safe space for tattooing by encouraging the client to bring a friend or family member to the appointment with them and, if possible, have them either within visible range or physically with them while they are getting the tattoo. Alternatively, encouraging the client to have a friend or family member on a video or phone call. Having a separate, physical, guarded and lockable area where the client is not visible to anyone in the studio that they are able to request to use at any reasonable point with no prejudice.
Speaker 1:Voluntarily communicating clearly and definitely what the entire process will consist of and not go beyond with the client. Making sure consent is explicitly given to any action from the tattooist or required of the client. Recognizing that the dynamic of the tattooist-client relationship is weighted towards the tattooist having authority and control and to try and counterbalance this by actively taking on the responsibility of ensuring that the client's comfort and feeling of safety, instead of leaving the impetus to them. Being transparent and open about your tattooing space and the physical safeguards and boundaries, and showing these to the client before they come to the studio. To encourage and be open to any questions from the client and to answer them as clearly and neutrally as possible within reason. Answer them as clearly and neutrally as possible within reason, communicating explicitly that consent can be suspended or withdrawn for any action at any point, without prejudice, within reason. Voluntarily and outwardly showing a policy of encouragement and positive positivity to all genders, sexualities and ethnicities. Making it clear that nobody's gender, sexuality or ethnicity will be brought into conversation unless it is done so by that person themselves or by previous consent. Voluntarily and outwardly showing a policy of explicit intolerance toward any non-consensual actions or communications. If possible. Having a diversity of types of people in the tattooing space, especially including people of the same type as the client, and making this voluntarily communicated as an option to the client before coming into the studio to adjust your manner and type of communication to the client and to what they are communicating, such as not wanting to talk To show old photographs taken to the client and have them consent to you keeping these photos and sharing them. Having covers, blankets and clothing available if the client requests them and making the client aware beforehand of their availability to them. Making the client aware at the start of e-communication that all of the above will be available to them throughout the time they are with you, making all of the above written in public, readily available to anyone.
Speaker 1:Thank you for reading and please share with as many people as you can. Hashtag change tattooing. So here's a resource for you to look through. It's a great little resource. So here's a resource for you to look through. It's a great little resource, freely available for you on the Change Tattooing Instagram page. I also know that they have some additional resources that you can download, so go have a look there. Resources that you can download so go have a look there. Lots of important things to think about in terms of the dynamic of the authority and the power of that relationship.
Speaker 1:I think this is such a powerful and important topic that we need to continually discuss and to look at as we hope to transform this world, as we look to transform this world in this work to make it safe and sacred and protected for everyone involved. I know that I have even learned in creating this episode and I will continually change it and transform my own practice as I move into the future. Yeah, it's important to revise and to work through and to learn about our practice and to make it safer for the coming generations, because the changes that we don't make today will be changes that they have to make in the future. Yes, this is a continual process. It's okay to be wrong, it's okay to have made mistakes, but it's important to change them. Uh, when we know better, we do better. So, uh, listen, learn and change. Uh is the uh mantra for this week's episode of working on creating safe and sacred spaces. I know I'll probably go back into this in another episode, another solo episode, and it'll probably continue to be explored as we move through conversations with other practitioners and other people who are working in these spaces.
Speaker 1:So, thank you for your time and attention and I'll see you next week. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot, and see you next week.