Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Reclaiming Heritage and Identity: The Healing Power of Indigenous Tattooing with Mel Lefebvre
#057 Imagine reclaiming lost traditions through the art of Indigenous tattooing. Mel, a two-spirit person of Red River, Michif, guides us through their transformative journeys of cultural reconnection. They share compelling stories about the resilience of Indigenous identities in the face of colonial challenges, drawing intriguing parallels between Indigenous and Irish histories. This episode promises insights into how tattoos are not just art but powerful symbols of identity and healing, especially for those seeking to reconnect with their roots.
Listeners are invited into an intimate conversation about the personal journeys of identity and healing through the world of traditional tattooing. We explore the intricate balance between academic life and community commitments, examining the pressures and triumphs that come with pursuing a PhD focused on Indigenous tattooing as a form of healing. Dion and Mel share their own pivotal experiences with tattooing, revealing how this ancient practice serves not only as a form of personal expression but also as a vital tool for communal care, especially for two-spirit, trans, and Indigenous women.
Throughout our discussion, we tackle the complexities of Indigenous governance and identity, reflecting on the impact of colonial legislation and the ongoing struggle for cultural reclamation. We address the challenges of fostering safe and accountable spaces within the tattoo community, emphasizing the importance of dialogue and collective responsibility. With stories that touch on everything from the misuse of Indigenous art forms to the powerful exchanges that occur during tattoo sessions, this episode offers a profound exploration of how artistic expression can lead to both personal and communal healing. Join us as we navigate these rich and multifaceted conversations, pushing forward the narrative of love, resilience, and positive transformation.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Mel at:
Instagram @theoriginalmel
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture
But when it is like a heavy story like that, wow, then I just find that the mark is so powerful for them.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Métis and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I have helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:So my name is Mel, I'm an in-between person or two-spirit person. I am Red River, michif and Nihio and settler, but to be more specific French and Irish. So my dad's name is Jack Lefebvre and his mother's name is Lillian Saint-Laurent Her mother's name is Marie Desjardins.
Speaker 1:Her parents are Albert Desjardins, whose parents are Jean-Pierre Guybache and Joseph Desjardins. Her parents are Albert Desjardins, whose parents are Geneviève Guibache and Joseph Desjardins, and Elise's parents, my great-grandmother, my great-great-grandmother. Her parents are Urbain Delorme and Madeleine Vivier, who are captains of the Buffalo Hunt. Wow, yeah, cool. So I should say a word also about my mother. So her name is Linda Doyle, and so Doyle's a big Irish family, and she was born in okay, I'm going to, I think it's Epitwak, which is the Mi'kmaq word for Prince Edward Island.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And her parents are Stephen Doyle and Ada Griffin. Okay, some parallels, I would say, between Irish folks and Indigenous folks in terms of diaspora, and has different characteristics, but I think there's a lot of disconnection there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting. I where was I? Oh, michigan State University. I went there to do a earthline tattooing action and I went to I don't know it was somewhere in the town, yeah and there was like a little museum or art gallery that I just went and checked out because I was walking around and there was a display. It was not very big, like you know, maybe the size of this wall. You know three quarters of this wall, of this wall. You know three quarters of this wall. It was just showing all of the racist stereotypes that the English used for the Irish. And you know, when I started to read some of the didactics there, it was actually like some of the first well, not the first, but some like early dehumanizations or otherings that the English used were against the Irish. So it was really interesting history there in terms of the transference of some of that language to other parts of the world. You know the moving of that language and that process of othering by the English to other parts of the world.
Speaker 2:And then I would say my friend Martha came over from Ireland and worked at the shop in Salmon Arm and so we had some really interesting conversations about that history of colonization, which I think is really an interesting thing that I've been thinking a lot about in terms of like the what would you say? The Inquisition, and that process of the church was a process of putting down Indigenous knowledges in Europe. So it's like a huge history of that process. And so when I talk to non-Indigenous folks or people who are not from turtle island or other, you know current indigenous nations I've always tell people you know like your people are fucking colonized like 2 000 years ago. So you know our indigenous languages, our visual languages come from the land. Yeah, and those things are not lost. They're just where the fuck you come from. They're just hidden.
Speaker 1:You haven't really explored it yet and some people, oh my god, like everything you just said, there's so many topics in there, but some people have the opportunity to do and the time it takes a lot of time to do that. It takes emotional labor, takes um so many things to be able to dive into that, but it's really just a commitment to find out who you are, you know, and what your responsibilities are. I would say so, yeah, like we were talking about the parallels, I think, between diasporic people, and I think you see a lot of the parallels between how people who are disconnected deal with those issues in their lives. You know, because it does leave a missing piece.
Speaker 2:He's a trans indigenous man, oh Romeo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you were both speaking about tattooing the diaspora.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I thought was amazing. Like it just like that just really clicked because I think there are so many people around the world that are diasporic people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like like, what does that mean? Like, what does that mean for you? Uh, whether you've explored it or not, there's going to be some remnant of something there that you can pick up, um.
Speaker 1:But there's also huge things that are missing, and I think about um, like african folks who you know were brought, you know, on the slave ships to the states and how much their cultures have influenced the us yeah um, but at the same time, how much they've lost yeah and, um, I think of, like dion brand's work I don't know if you know dionne Brand, caribbean, canadian poet, who writes about this a map to the door of no return, wow, and it's like just sort of exploring the possibilities of like, if there is no real return and you don't know what land you could put your bare feet on and really feel your people, how do you explore returning?
Speaker 1:when you don't know, yeah and I feel like tattooing can offer some maybe solace, yeah, or opportunity to discuss, to imagine, you know, to create new connections, even if you don't know names or places, or you know, there's something, I think, that's intangible, that you can discover.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So I think that's one of the things that tattooing can do for a person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. A couple things just spark in my mind. The first one is, like part of the reason I wanted to bring that conversation forward with the diaspora is partly because of the invisibility of Filipino people across the world. As I have traveled, I've become more and more aware of how integral the diaspora from the Philippines has been in the everyday lives of most people across the world. Like you look at the labor in Hawaii, you know. You look at the labor, you know Natalia talks about the labor in most of the you know hotels and all of these other places where Filipino people have been part of this diaspora that is invisible. Like, how often do you hear about the reality of how important those folks are to the everyday lives of most people? At Sparks I did a podcast interview a couple years ago. I think it was Brax something, brax Noser I can't remember exactly the fellow's name or the person's name who invited me, but it was a panel of Black folks and then myself and then I was talking you know how I talk about.
Speaker 2:You know the who's this rando guy. It was a panel of black folks and then myself.
Speaker 1:And then I was talking. You know how I talk about, you know the who's this rando guy.
Speaker 2:I was talking, like you know, the connection of those symbols to our cultures, and then one of them was like well, you know, a lot of us came and we don't actually know where we're from, which was like an interesting realization of like you don't know what you don't know and your reality is definitely not everybody's reality. Yeah, so it was like quite a like almost, uh, smack in the face of like whoa, like there's a lot of shit you don't know. You know, so it was interesting. And then also, I would say, living here in Nova Scotia, you know, the Black Canadian experience is something that is not at all really explored, and so it's been cool to have clients that I get to visit with who you know are part of that community. Yeah, and yeah, it's just interesting, something that hasn't really been on my radar. And yeah, it's just interesting, something that hasn't really been on my radar.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I mean I, you know it's I'm often more angry about like white people than any of my black friends.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm like is there?
Speaker 1:what's going on? Like I'm angry for them you know, but I don't know. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm too angry, maybe I need to let it go. I'm not angry all the time or anything, but you know like there's something to be said about, like so that Irish experience of my mom and the indigenous experience of my dad and that disconnection and how much that weighs on you in your DNA, like in your spirit. You know, and so I don't know. It's interesting to explore with Black folks, like do you know where your family came from?
Speaker 2:And if you do?
Speaker 1:did they have a tattoo culture?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if they didn't have tattoo, did they have, like scarification or did they have any other kind of body modifications? And it's a really interesting conversation. So there's lots of parallels to be made there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:In a celebratory way, not just like through the pain, the painful parts, right Like the oppression, and not just that, but like what is your culture really like? Yeah, so, but yeah, like what can we offer to people? It's like 60 scoop folks or kids in foster care or whatever who don't have a connection to their family or their territory or their language or anything, and then they come to you for tattoos or just to speak about it. They don't even know if they're going to get one, but they're kind of like well, I don't know where I come from. I don't know where I come from.
Speaker 1:So I don't even know what my nation is or what my land is. I mean, I know I'm native, but I'm not sure. So how can you, what can you do for me? Almost? And it's like, well, I can give you some of my language, I can give you some of my symbols, and you can carry that and be happy about it and you know, empowered by that, and then they come and it's the whole experience right, like the gathering the people, the welcoming, the yeah and that's another thing that came up for me recently was the.
Speaker 1:I think in this, on this journey, it's like six or maybe going to seven years. Is that like it really takes a community to do this work? Yeah, there's no way you can do it, just you and the person you're tattooing it doesn't work like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like all of the knowledge, all of the language, all the symbols, all the support, all the you know, the aftercare. Like everything, all your elders, everything, it's everybody that's around you that there's no way you could do it without them which is I think one of the it's just it's about relationships yeah it's.
Speaker 1:I think the it's not just about that marking yeah, it's about everything that's around the marking so I think that's one of the most important things that I've learned and I'm not a person who's very good at asking for help, I think because I'm always so like oh, I can do it, I'll just do it quick myself, you know, or I'll do it. So it's like it's about time, it's about patience, it's about knowing you can't do it all yourself.
Speaker 2:You're not good at everything. Mel, yeah, not you me talking to me, it applies. Okay, I can point to myself.
Speaker 1:I'll just point to myself, but you know you can't do everything, so stop trying, because that's why you're so fucking tired all the time. Everybody's here. They want to help you. They want you to succeed, right. So, it takes, like all of these people, to create this wonderful, joyous experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I love how you articulated that and it adds something to this idea that I've been exploring around the mark and why we call it a mark as opposed to a tattoo. Yes, sometimes we use those words interchangeably. However, when I'm very specifically focusing on that experience is, I always say that it's not necessarily about you know, the tattoo or the artifact that is left after we've done giving the mark, because it's about the experience of that individual coming to the place of wanting to be marked, the experience of them being marked. But the additional thing that you've added, which I think is important, is to highlight not only the community that helped them to come to the place where they are ready for their mark, but also the communities that lift us up mark, but also the communities that lift us up Right, and so it's actually that mark actually isn't just about that individual. It's about all of those communities that have come together to bring us to a place where we can offer and also receive the mark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it like transcends time and space completely.
Speaker 1:It's not just now, it's not just the community now, it's the community before. It's all the cultural practices that we used to do, that we still do, that were lost, that were found be beautiful. It can be. Of course, you know, there's like this, these stepstones that kind of we can refer back to, is like that's how I got to this place where I am now. If I look at all these marks, I'm like fuck, those were like the first two rings that my first mentor gave me, and then I have your, you know my second mentor, who gave me this, my first skin stitch, and then this one, and I remember that moment. I was freezing, fucking freezing, at the Tyendinaga tattoo gathering maybe the second one, the second year, I think.
Speaker 1:It was like the end of the night. I can't even believe that I stayed up way past my bedtime. I'm like usually in bed at 8.30. I don't know, it was the wee hours, for sure Laying on the table, freezing my ass off, like shaking, and you're like, and you're one of those tattooers that does the flick.
Speaker 2:So the flick is happening over and over at like 3 am.
Speaker 1:But it reminds me of, like, my house, like, of course this symbol has a story, but it also reminds me of like how I was resilient in that moment and I found that because I really wanted to remember that time with you, with the people that I love. Right. So yeah, I think it really becomes these, like just these marks of time and space and reminders of like, who we are and how strong we are and loving and you know, so so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think we kind of jumped ahead a little bit, yeah. So let's rewind that a little bit and I'll just get you to kind of take me on the journey of what brought you to be a skin marker, just to help to give context to that conversation. So I was born in but kind of.
Speaker 1:I mean, I yeah, it's funny, like so my dad is a disconnected native person. He is, as I mentioned, Red River Métis. His ancestry is Nihio, which is Plains Cree, soto and Nakoda in French, and he's, you know, he's always known, he's a Native person, but entirely disconnected, just didn't know and that resulted in a bunch of things and so I knew my grandmother she's also disconnected but also knew she's Native, but it just was not a conversation. So throughout our lives and know lots of trauma intergenerational trauma for sure and so that played a role.
Speaker 1:And as I grew up, I think I really gravitated towards being an introvert and a writer and an artist, so that I it was just, I think, a way for me to process things, you know. So I was a writer for us. I'm still a writer, but I've been a writer for about 30 years. Yeah, to my father, my sister and my grandmother. Back to who we are, you know, to know names, to know places, to know like to go and visit those places, which was about 20 years ago or more. I was able to use those tools to do that reconnection work, you know, and that's who I am. So the research and the artistic practice is really who I am. And then, once I started exploring traditional tattoos and I was seeing them in land-based education work, I've always been interested in education.
Speaker 1:I have a few degrees which I really enjoy learning and being around people who are learning and research, which I really enjoy learning and being around people who are learning and research. So in some land-based education I was introduced to traditional tattooing through my first mentor, milo Laforte, and he gave me my first tattoos and he's also a trans person and he was able to kind of guide me in terms of, like, being more careful around, you know um two-spirit folks, trans folks, being more gentle with myself too like it's okay to make mistakes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm also one of those people. I'm a two-spirit person. So it's like how, how can I not know this? How?
Speaker 2:am I, you know but it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's okay to not know yeah, right, yeah so I spent time with him and he was tattooing and I was like I think I could really this could be another way for me to serve the community which I do a lot of through the women's shelter in Montreal. Yeah, I've been doing that for many years and I thought this could be something really great because I work a lot with women and children child welfare. They're disconnected 60 scoop. A lot of women and children, child welfare. They're disconnected, 60 scoop a lot of people like that and it you know immediately I was like this is a healing situation this is medicine for sure so.
Speaker 1:So milo really introduced me to that and he's, he's just wonderful, and also he likes a lot of things that I do, like, um, drawing botanicals, drawing, animals, drawing, you know. So that which I find like very nurturing. So it just all tied in my own journey to reconnect my artistic practice, my research practice, my, you know, desire to learn new things, my desire to serve, so I don't know it, just it was just there, it was put there and I just picked it up.
Speaker 1:I was like fuck it, picking it up, you know and I don't know, and then it just it.
Speaker 1:The path was just laid out and you know, opportunity after opportunity and I was working hard and I was just I don't know. I was like, okay, you know, I asked and it was answered and so I'm doing it, yeah, and that's it Awesome, yeah. And then I, you know, for my master's degree, which I did at Concordia, I was researching two-spirit, trans and indigenous women and their practices of decolonizing and collective care and self-care. So it was a podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And just sitting with people hanging out shooting the shit about their artistic practices um, you know how they get through their lives as the people they are, how they deal with their trauma, yeah, anything that they want to share, you know. And, um, while that was happening, then I started tattooing and I was like this could be a PhD and I was like, really Like, do you think they're going to let me do that? Well, someone's going to let me do it.
Speaker 1:So, I, and at Concordia they have this individualized program, which is kind of cool for Native folks because you can just go in and fuck around and create your own shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I just became this opportunity and I was like you know, should I do this? You know, asking my grandmother, and she was like yes, because I was accepted and they liked the idea, and I had my you know Indigenous supervisor and committee, and I was just like okay, fuck, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't know. I think that I'm the only person in the world to have a PhD in that, and so that feels good Certainly the only Métis person and so it's been really awesome to have that opportunity to just bring all this stuff forward. And then, you know, we met and I was like knocking on your door. I'm like, can you? Come out and play, you're like maybe maybe so my usual response, right yeah, I'll get back to you in like five to ten you know years so.
Speaker 1:but yeah, then we connected and we just kind of got on and that was cool and yeah. So that was just another sort of opportunity that was presented. It worked out. We got a grant, we were able to just hang out, fuck around, make tools and you shared loads of knowledge and I think that was another in this journey, this huge kind of I mean, I don't know about like epiphany, but really it became so clear that you need a mentor. You just need that experience. You need someone to turn to.
Speaker 1:you know, no matter how you know self-sufficient you might be, you need someone when you're in doubt, when you're doubting yourself, someone, when you're in doubt, when you're doubting yourself, when you're you know whether it be just working with tools yeah or whether it be like some kind of internal struggle you know, and, uh, it's so important, yeah. So I don't know if there's people out there working without a mentor, but if they are, I would advise you to go get one Seek one out, call me. But yeah, it's been like instrumental to this entire process. I would not be where I am without you.
Speaker 2:So to be honest, you know and I think you know that.
Speaker 1:You know how much you influence people's lives, right? So that's why you're put. One of the reasons why you're put here is to do that work, that you do so and that's where I am now. So I'm just finishing this PhD, which I was talking about, which is focused on healing Well, indigenous. You know, traditional tattooing is healing and reconnection for Indigenous people, with a specific focus, as much as I can, on Two-Spirit and Indigenous women. And it's been like it's just this crazy, crazy journey, like so much I just couldn't even contain it all in this document, in this research creation. I just couldn't, but I did the best I could. And then the defense is in like two weeks. That's crazy. I'm like this better be a joyous conversation, because I think it will be. I know everybody on the committee.
Speaker 2:Everybody is like wonderful.
Speaker 1:They only want to see me succeed. This is what I tell myself every day when I wake up with anxiety.
Speaker 2:Well, the reality is is there will be no question that you are the expert in that room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no question, I know.
Speaker 2:And so that's the reality of that situation. Yes, they may have some methodological questions or some of those type of things, but the reality is, is the subject matter. Nobody else in that room knows even a minuscule. You know a cap full, I know, of the knowledge that you have. It's kind of cool, and so you know, uh, that I think that's how you enter that room yeah, I think you know you do that the best you can.
Speaker 2:I think, like you know, we all have doubts and stuff and I'm just sort of like I know in my best moments after a 10 hour sleep.
Speaker 1:I'm like I fucking got this, bro, three hours later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just like like. I just, you know, I have my moments Like the other night I was like crying.
Speaker 1:My cousin was over, my sister was visiting, and, oh, my daughter was there too, and it was, just like you know, sometimes shit it just Overwhelming. It's like fucking Donald Duck or something. Yeah, if they would do that, their eyes would start filling with water. But it was like that and I was just like, oh, I can't take it Because there is so much pressure. I think in academia that's just that's the nature of it. You got to produce, produce, produce, produce. And I think my nature is to produce anyway.
Speaker 1:So it works for me and I love right. But at the same time there's a lot to do.
Speaker 1:You got to get funding, you got to get you know committee, you got to like get your research you know gathered and processed and analyzed and fucking and committees serving, serving the community, the academic community like there's, yeah and then, on the side which is not really on the side you have the work that you need to do for your own community, which is on part of fucking work which is one of the challenges I think of of the academic community.
Speaker 2:Uh, insisting that that show of work has to be for the academic community, insisting that that show of work has to be for the academic community, as opposed to credit for the work that you do in community our communities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that needs to be recognized, even, you know, for indigenous students and indigenous professors also. Yeah, it's like this should you know, um, take the place of a course that you might teach or that you might take yeah right. So it's like for students as indigenous profs, we can do that work yeah we can say, okay, tell me about what you're doing in your community.
Speaker 1:You can use that for some of your, you know, your your work for the class. But, um, as profs, I don't, you know, I don't know if that many universities do that.
Speaker 2:No, I think. You know I've just done a bit of research about this because of my short career at Acadia. You know I did some research around the retention of, you know, indigenous and Black professors and you know part of that challenge is the community work but also the reality that you know you are sought out by Indigenous students even though you have no connection to them in terms. You know could be a science student and you're, you know, an arts professor.
Speaker 2:But because you're indigenous, you know they come for that support that's how much care yeah, we need yeah in those spaces yeah, big time like, and so that is then put on your plate as well? Um, yeah, so and that's not recognized either.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So it's a lot of those things. And then from my own experience is like you're asked to do everything Indigenous, right Like every committee that comes up.
Speaker 1:Well, you must know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know shit, man. I don't even know how I got this job. You know what I mean? Yeah, big time Fuck, and yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Fuck. And I remember I did do an interview I think it was last year for a university, I can't remember, but oh, yeah, they were like oh, and, by the way, you'll be like the advocate for this, and then you'll also be the person that the other professors go to to get advice or strategic something about Indigenous everything. And I'm just like what I'm out.
Speaker 2:Like I can't help. That's just not right. It's not fair. No, not at all.
Speaker 1:And it's just more of that pan-indigenous sort of you know, yeah, um, bullshit, really so so, yeah, so that's like the academic thing which I think is, you know, it's some people really love academia. I think it's a you can really create good things there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if there's other, if there's a cohort you know a support network yeah but if there isn't, you're fucked yeah, big time I would say yeah, um, yeah, it's such a challenge, um, the one thing that for me it's always the students. You know, uh, when I think about it sometimes I think about the some of the professors and staff and you're just like what the fuck? Like our world is fucked, yeah. And then some of the students.
Speaker 2:You're just like holy shit, like yeah some of the students are just so brilliant, so, like they got it. Yeah, you know, yeah, and so it actually. That's the one thing that gives me a lot of hope, actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Even non-Indigenous students too, yeah, totally. There are some that are really just they care and they understand the context as much as they're able to empathize with it and whatnot, and I care about them too. And I'm just like fuck. This world is fucked. It's so hard, and I'm talking about from the space I'm in which is like, I'm like racially white. You know I'm not like poor, I'm not living on the streets.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not.
Speaker 2:I mean okay, maybe paycheck to paycheck but you know what I mean, at least I have a paycheck right, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's just so many challenges, and so do you tattoo a lot of non-Indigenous people.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, with your Black work. Yeah, yeah, you do, yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I've tattooed quite a few as well and actually I enjoy it, think they're. They are also people who are looking for connection and no, it's not my number one priority yeah but I care about people in general right it's like, if someone comes to me looking for some healing. Sure, like indigenous people are at the top of the list. Yeah, of course, but you know, I think that there are so many challenges in this world that it's like I don't know. Giving to people in general is just something that I like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. I want to circle back now. You know, we were kind of started down that road when we were in the beginning in terms of diaspora, in terms of, you know, a lot of times people will talk about 60s scoop, which is important, but then also, you know, I've been really thinking about this reality of disconnected folks and some of the violence, the lateral violence and some of that bullshit that goes on. Yeah, um, and I think about it, and part of it that really got me thinking about is I was listening to a podcast about pretendians yeah, robert jagos podcast I don't remember, okay, I don't remember which podcast, but they.
Speaker 2:they were saying that, oh, the here's one way you can find out if they're not a pretendian is we have these cards. And so they started talking about status cards, and that started me to think about. Well, the precursor to status or the Indian Act was the Gradual Civilization Act Act. So then I started to think about what?
Speaker 2:was it 1871 or 72, the first Indian Act kind of came in, the one that had enfranchisement as part of the legislation. And so now when I start to think about, oh well, we have a form of legislation that was actually introduced to erase us, but now we are insisting that that's the thing that you need to prove, yeah, that you are an Indigenous person, it's like what. And then I also started to think okay, well, you have 1871 or some around there, don't quote me on it. Okay, um, but somewhere around there enfranchisement came in, and so you know the sexist legislation where indigenous women, uh, married a non-status, uh man, and they lost status.
Speaker 1:Um, and some had to leave their communities altogether. Yeah, altogether.
Speaker 2:And so really that's like a forced removal from community. And so you're looking at, and then a lot of people say, oh well, your indigeneity is too far back, that you're too disconnected, so we're going to discount you. Disconnected, so we're going to discount you. But then you're looking at this legislation, which is a colonial form of legislation and its purpose was to erase us, to eradicate us and to make us dark yeah, but some folks apply it to you to show that, oh well, you're not native.
Speaker 1:Because you're not, you don't have a status card, you don't have like.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but it's like a. It's a colonial yardstick that they're using to measure which was actually created, and now we are insisting that the thing that was created to erase us is the thing that we're using to verify and define us. Like talk about fucking colonization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like I don't have it figured out Because, okay, and we're not talking about pretendians, I'm not talking about those people, they're just over there.
Speaker 2:They're fucked Like whatever. Okay, that's another conversation.
Speaker 1:But I know, like I don't really know what the answer is Like, and I feel like you said this before and it's in my dissertation and it is the if you, if you're carrying the wood, then you, you're welcome at the fire. Yeah, and I think that applies to all people, right? Um is a person who has, like an ancestor in 1650, an indigenous person? I don't know, I don't have the answer to that I don't, I don't know I don't have the answer to that. I don't know, I don't know. It's very confusing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, no, I think about it. Well, the way that I start to think about it is okay. We have some of these concepts which we hold dear and sacred and that we use on a regular basis. Yeah, intergenerational trauma, blood memory. You know all of these concepts that say that, simply because you are from where you're from, you have all of these things, yeah, that speak to you, that affect you, that challenge you, that encourage you. So how far back does that go? If it's blood memory, as long as you have a drop, that's still a blood memory. You know when I think about that. I think I've shared this before, but I've heard it said that in the Maori, among a lot of Maori folks, if you have one drop, then you're a Maori. But the second question is what iwi or what tribe do you belong to? And so that second question is important because it says what rights do you have to land culture?
Speaker 1:And so you have to know that.
Speaker 2:Yes. So it's like kind of like almost like a two-tier thing where you're like, okay, you have that, you know and again, don't quote me, hopefully that's true. But you know, I've heard that in conversations or I've read that in certain places and it really the reason I. It resonated with me because we're saying how do we include people at our table? And for me that's not only a matter of what rights do you have, but it's also like we fucking need them, for sure.
Speaker 1:Because, and I also, think it's up to every nation to decide right, every nation, every tribe, every. You know they have to have their own conversations. Yeah, you know in it's probably not something I should even bring up, because it's such a fucking kettle of fish or a kettle of something.
Speaker 2:Crabs, I don't fucking know. Anyway, lobster Something sharp, something sharp.
Speaker 1:Crabs, I don't fucking know anyway. Lobster, something sharp, something sharp.
Speaker 1:Um is like the metis, this metis fucking conundrum like that's going on and again, I'm not talking about pretendians, not talking about that, you know, um, but it became this thing of like, well, who claims you and I don't even I, that's a turtle island thing, yeah, um thing, but it was used for, like, lateral violence. It became like that Well, who claims you? Does anyone claim you? Like, who's your community? Okay, valid question, but some people don't do their homework. Some people ask and they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I mean, this is all social media, right.
Speaker 1:I find like that's like a whole other, yeah, kettle of something pointy, like it's just it's bad, you know, but the Métis thing is so particular like, because we have these different governments happening and each government is making different decisions no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Those challenges are coming through the court system. Yeah, and the reality is, is that that court system and the government that upholds it, gives it authority, actually has no fucking authority? Yeah, so we actually we have to go even further back than the Indian Act, we have to go further back than the judicial system and we have to go back to the doctrine of discovery and we have to say, actually, how the fuck are we going to be using a status card or a court system that usurped the actual sovereignty and authority of our communities at the beginning? Our own indigenous law system, our own systems that we need to be going back to? That's right to gain, that that's right. And so it's really like, no, let's forget about all that shit. And, yes, it's an important conversation, but maybe we don't have the ability to have that conversation yet because we, we need that land we do visiting at the table, at the kitchen table, right.
Speaker 1:So that's a space where midship women and I don't only like to say women, because I don't identify as a woman, so I would like to think that I would be at that table and I don't call myself a woman, so I'm going to say midship women and two-spirit and trans people would be at the table. Maybe, I'm not quite sure. Anyway, and trans people would be at the table.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm not quite sure. Anyway, but I'm at the table and so this is a governance system. So you come together, you eat, you talk about challenging subjects, you make decisions on you know whatever, you know economy, or what's going on in different households and Maria Campbell talks about this a lot, mischief, elder Maria Campbell and, amongst other, many Métis scholars and that's a governance system where the women come together and they make decisions about families, right, and that's a big deal. But the thing is, when you have the men, some men, some Métis men, that are leading those arms of the Canadian government, how do you, as women and Two-Spirit people, speak to those men who are in charge of those arms of government? How do you bridge that gap when they don't want you to have power? How do you do that when they actively try to silence you? How do you do that? I don't want you to have power. How do you do that when they try to actively try to silence you?
Speaker 1:yeah how do you do that? I don't, I don't know. I mean it's, I think it's, you know, daily chipping away at things and being vocal, and but it's, it's also dangerous yeah, yeah, there's no, let's not be you know, let's not beat around the bush, it's fucking dangerous it's naive to think that it's not right, you know there's money involved.
Speaker 1:Wherever there's money involved, you bet that this is going to be some kind of danger for you. And I've seen that silencing activities and it's scary. It's scary Trying to control people, but as well trying to control messages, trying to control scholarship, trying to control, you know, community money, like all of that. So how do you, as a midship woman or a midship two-spirit person or trans person, how do you fight that? You know like, okay, very carefully, in groups, whisper networks, all this kind of thing. But fuck man, like it's like you're fighting against your own fucking people yeah right, yeah, big time been starting to be co-opted by non-Indigenous folks.
Speaker 2:the term tattoo medicine. When I started to think about, when I started to use it, I wasn't the first one to use it, so I'm not saying that. But, I started to use it in my own work and my own messaging and my own understanding and putting it out, putting on t-shirts, putting it on stickers, tattoo medicine for me at that time was about identity and that's political.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and I would say that that is because it is so visible, whether it's on your face, your arm, wherever it is, you can't take it off. It reminds you, number one, of who you are, because that's what was trying to be erased. That's what the Gradual Civilization Act was about. That's what enfranchisement is about. That's what all of those things are about is erasing us, erasing our identity, making us ashamed, making us feel like we don't want to be the savages that they speak of, and so we're trying to hide, we're trying to do all that stuff. That's all about identity.
Speaker 2:And so for me, in the beginning, tattoo medicine was 100%. When I used it, it was about making us proud of who we are as Indigenous people, as Cree people, as Métis people, as Ntukapwak, Sioux, okanagan, haida, you know, tlingit, whoever we are, wherever we're from. But then also, when I started to talk to Kanahus and think about that, even more was okay. Well, think about that even more was okay. Well, once we find out and we are fully embodied who we are, that also relates us back to our land. And so for me, I also see in my own messaging, my own thinking, the way that I was talking about it maybe took a wrong turn, because I didn't include the fact that it's not only tattoo medicine, but it's also land back and those things can't be divorced, and especially when you are doing that in Turtle Island, in the mire and the mud and the muck of a colonial project which is ongoing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I find that challenging. And so for me, when we talk about all of these other things that have to do with identity, that has to do with tattooing, that has to do with our marks, that has to do with all of those things that has to do with our marks, yeah, that has to do with all of those things. And you know, a German TV crew came and did three days with me and they kept asking me all of these different things. They, of course, they wanted me to go after Trudeau and his Haida tattoo and all that. Oh, fuck, whatever. But I started to talk about it in terms of, like our tattoo, medicine and its connection to our identity, and they're like, oh well, this is very political.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, of course, when your identity is legislated, it has to be political it is like you, there's no other way about it, right, and so I think that's how it's connected. But also for me, like all of things, even those things that are very distantly, you know, you know it takes us a while to find where that line is to tattooing. I think all of that's connected.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, it's all connected Traditional tattooing or ancestral skin marking. It covers so many disciplines. It's crazy, it's wild, it blows my mind. It's like you can basically speak about tattooing in any classroom. It doesn't matter what subject it is. You can relate it back to it, but it is medicine. Like there were medicine people who used to take that from, I mean from a Plains perspective anyways. They would travel to different Plains communities and have these like two or three day sessions with one person and it would be ceremony. And you're not. You're not. You're exercising these like emotions or spirits or whatever it is, or you're preparing someone to be received by their ancestors, or they're you know they've just gotten their period or I don't know what the story is, but it's medicine and literally you're putting markings on someone's body to heal them, to bring them into another state of being.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the tattoo medicine. You know it's tricky like that term. I mean it's English. First of all, it's not even our language which.
Speaker 1:I understand. However, it's within a context of us losing our language. So and it's yeah, like I mean, I had a conversation with someone who is very sensitive to Indigenous issues. They are a non-Indigenous person and from Europe and kind of recently moved to Canada and is a very conscious person, very sensitive, you know, very in touch with healing, healing practice right, and they do machine tattooing and they use that term and I was like it just rubbed me the wrong way yeah and I was like, okay, why is this rubbing me the wrong way?
Speaker 1:why am I upset by this? Yeah, so I didn't really want to say anything until I understood why I was upset about it, right, and I just don't feel it's as simple. As you know, colonizers already took everything from us. You have to take another thing. It's not quite that simple, like why can't that person say tattoo medicine, yeah? And then you know so I asked other practitioners and everybody had their own kind of reasons and but all together it came up to just don't fucking do it, it's just not sitting right.
Speaker 1:If it doesn't sit right with one or two or five or 10 people and there's not many of us doing it If it doesn't sit right, you just don't do it. Because you can choose a whole bunch of other things. You know you can, but for us it's really like something that we're reviving. We're cultivating that we lost because of your people coming here and fucking us over and some of my people too, right, but but it's really something that we're trying to coin to bring to the people, to get them saying it to you know, and they are, you know, like we go to gatherings, our people are speaking like this. They're you know, and that's part of our revival.
Speaker 1:So, if you cannot do it, yeah you know, if you can just take a step back and use another term. There's a whole bunch of different terms and that person was quite receptive to that, which I really appreciated, and I may not know all the reasons why that bugs me or that it bugs you or whatever, but I think it's enough that it just doesn't sit right.
Speaker 2:It takes away, it's taking from us again, I feel and I think part of it is also to uh, because of some of the um, what would you say? The, the connections, and not only the connections, but the insistence that people are uh hip to indigenous issues. Yeah, um, it's like really, you know, yeah, um, just uh, just so people know there's probably a siren going by.
Speaker 2:Uh, we're actually right my ride is here, yeah I gotta go um, but no, I think the you when I think about that. It's also it also it's reminiscent of hippie culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and taking from Indian culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's why I always say as well, when I talk about people who are non-Indigenous, not from Turtle Island or another Indigenous community is that has to go back to their land.
Speaker 1:Your people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Your people, your territory, were they practicing tattoo there?
Speaker 2:What is the language? What is it? Yeah, how did they do it?
Speaker 1:But that person doesn't know. So I feel like well, and then I'm like you know, and then I'm like well, can't newness be created? Can't you have new, can't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think you can. I think part of it is also because it's so special. Yeah, that word has been used for you know, a good number of years now to talk about the things that we have been doing, and of course, it's the same thing as when I think about my own journey with like form line design work, like it is powerful. Yeah, of course you want to fucking do it, because it's powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Design work like it is powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course you want to fucking do it because it's powerful, yeah. But, then we just come to realize that, hey, maybe that's not for me because it's not mine.
Speaker 1:That's not yours.
Speaker 2:Right and so and that's OK. Yeah, that's OK. We all learn, you know, we don't know, I just find people get.
Speaker 1:They don't like to be told no, I don't have our own language.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, I was going to bring it back to that. Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Which I think is 100%, 100%. I'm not, I can't fluent. Maybe I can introduce myself a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I know some words, I know the word for tattoo or you know like, but I don't know. And and you know what it requires me to go to an elder, to, you know um, gift them something to hopefully pay them an honorarium to sit with them to. I have to consult with them in order to find that word in my own language or phrase or whatever it is. So it's not just like I'm just going to go to the dictionary and look it up. That doesn't feel right. It's a practice that's really important. So you need to have that consultation. Feel is this other way of doing it, like sort of a colonial way?
Speaker 1:of doing it which is I'm just going to look it up and then just use it. Yeah, it's like, but you know, there's the context.
Speaker 2:The context is everything right well, yeah, we have our own uh word for tattooing and it's in the cup book chain. Um, and I haven't used it just because I haven't done that process. Yeah, um, the one phrase that I really love, that uh, one of my, uh one of the folks that I've mentored shared the phrase temuch medicine, which is land medicine. Oh, interesting, but it also connects that ancestral skin marking piece with the land piece, right, because I think that, for me, is where our markings actually take us to 100%.
Speaker 2:Because that's actually where our power is Totally so I've been thinking about starting to use Tamew medicine as opposed to tattoo medicine, because that's truly, you know from our, it's yours, it's yeah, and so, yeah, there's just different things there, of like, how do we then take control back, and is it actually a gift to us to force us to go?
Speaker 1:hey, let's rethink this and maybe empower us even a little bit more well, I remember when we first talked about this, you were saying that you know you were going to start learning your language and I was like, yeah, that makes sense. And then it's truly ours and we know that it comes from the land, right? So we don't need to question that. Nobody's going to take that. I mean, they did sort of try to take it nobody's going to take that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, they did sort of try to take it, but not completely right I mean, we can retake that, we can revive it, we can right. So that is one way to avoid the entire conversation completely or nullify it.
Speaker 2:Really, it's just just use your own language yeah and fuck it right still feels a bit icky, I know, I think I think it might have been, uh, sherry.
Speaker 1:That was like no, that's it, just no period. I was like yeah, I know. Luckily the person was very receptive and lovely and that that was, that was great. I mean, that means everything.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but it just uh, provides an opportunity to have that conversation, and I would say that it's maybe not even necessarily uh, that individual's use of that term. But what are then the ramifications of others who then take it up? Yeah? Right, yeah, what about the next person who sees that permission to yeah, it's like um, oh well, they're using it. That's cool.
Speaker 1:I never thought of that.
Speaker 2:I'm going to use it too, and then they end up being a creep or somebody not even a creep in terms of, like you know, yeah. Yeah, just a not good person, no, and then it's well A culture vulture, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, ok, so, speaking of creeps, I think there's something that I want to talk to you about. I mean, I want to talk about it too, but I mean so and I'm kind of coming to some realizations, like I can't control everything yeah, I think we already talked about that and really trying to do it all with, like the utmost integrity. And then you see someone in the community who is a tattoo artist, who isn't, doesn't have integrity, yeah, and is actually harming people. Like how do we? To what extent is our responsibility? I mean, yes, we can, we could work to make the tattoo space safe. Is that all we need to do? Is that all we should require from ourselves? Like, how much do we put on ourselves to? And then the other part of that is like, how safe is it to speak about it? It's not. It's not really safe. It's safer for some than others, more than others, but what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, godfather, I think the reality is that, in the first instance is to have these conversations, and I hold you up, just as I held up Gina, in terms of talking about some of these challenging topics in terms of sexism, in terms of abuse, sexual abuse, assault and all of those type of things which are part of our communities as well as part of our tattoo community and in the micro.
Speaker 2:And I think it's important to begin to have these difficult, challenging conversations Because, when I think about the reality of one of the impetuses for me to start marking was the suicide of a young friend right, and so, as I have continued to research the reality of suicide in our communities, one of those things that is an equal contributor to suicide in our communities is abuse, is the physical, mental, spiritual and sexual abuse of people in our communities, and it's a huge epidemic.
Speaker 2:And if we don't start to bring those things to light, even though we don't have the solutions to them, to bring them forward, I think is actually the starting of something and I would say how that really connects back to and I'm not saying that necessarily, what we're saying here is that, but I think it's important to start that conversation in the real reality, that in the larger reality of Indigenous peoples, abuse is such a huge contributor to the loss of so many of our people, and so that is really yeah. And the reason that some people decide to exit is because they can't see themselves as a Cree person in the future. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:They just see themselves as the savage, they see themselves as the drunk, they see themselves as every other stereotype as opposed to the strong and powerful person that they are, and so they choose to exit the strong and powerful person that they are, and so they choose to exit. And so that is one of the foundational principles of why tattoo medicine and the marking of our identity is so important. And so, when I come to the reality of this conversation, I think we should really take it back to the most macro reality that it has to start in that larger conversation of how damaging this is for our people on the larger scale. Having that conversation there and then bringing it even more micro to our own communities is we actually have to have that conversation of? Those things are not acceptable.
Speaker 1:I think we do and I kind of wonder, like, what is the role of like women and two-spirit people and trans people? So I kind of put them, maybe they should be, I don't know if they're together. What is the role of men, you know, because the large, you know, percentage of people who do harm in that way are men, cis men yeah and I'm just kind of like and and there's not very many of us, yeah, tattoo practitioners, right.
Speaker 1:So when you have one that you know of that's doing this kind of harm, how do we navigate that? And especially, like when you see people being tattooed by that person? Yeah women and and their daughters maybe, or you know. Yeah, how do you like? You know, it paralyzes me, frankly. I'm like I gotta say something, but I can't because it's dangerous, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:So what do you think is like the men's role in that is like the start of that really. Yeah, and I knew we were going to have this conversation and I'm glad that we are, because I think it is actually integral to the next step in the work that we're doing to help our communities. You know, um, just the same as and I think that's also why I find um some of the conversations around identity so challenging, because I see how powerful the work is when somebody walks out with their ancestral mark, what that actually does for that person.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then starting to hear, uh, conversations start to hear about stories of people who have been through abuse in our community because of tattooing from individuals who are taking advantage, from individuals who are acting in a violent way, intimidation, all of those toxic, toxic things that are really not acceptable. And so for me, it's having these conversations publicly and saying you know that shit doesn't slide.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:That's not okay, yeah, and if you hear this, the reality is, is that you're not going to be invited? No, you know, and in some cases, you know, for me it's also thinking okay, well, what is my role? To then also say, like, what's the next step for us as a community to start to go like, well, how do we deal with this? What is that reality? How do we have those conversations? How do we navigate it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know dealing with it. So part of that would be is this like separating people? Is this allowing people to, you know, be reintegrated into community?
Speaker 2:All of those kind of like you know, restorative justice ideas.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say that which is. It's a big thing and I've never seen a successful restorative justice experience.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1:Of course, we're all fallible. Nothing is going to be perfect, but it's so hard to do Not that it's impossible, but I feel like there's that missing piece and I am cognizant of the fact that the people that are doing harm have been harmed themselves. But I feel like these conversations are important for the next step, which is bringing the practitioners together to have these bigger conversations.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, it's a conundrum, and also I just want to acknowledge that I don't think the solutions only lie with us as the practitioners yeah because you know it's part of, like, the community's responsibility too, it's part of that specific nation, it's part of right it's not just us because I feel like a lot of people turn to the other practitioners saying this person is in your midst, this is what they're doing yeah it's. We need you to solve this because they're harming the community. It's like okay, but we're part of the community too. Yeah, like so I, I feel like, on the one hand, I do want to do something and have yeah um, and on the other hand, I have to recognize that I can't solve everything.
Speaker 2:Well, and I, um, I started there and I want to reemphasize that um, I thank you and I hold you up for those things that you have done. Because the reality is is that, um, that's not safe, it's not, and that is that is very challenging. Yeah, right, that you have to be in that place of trying to do that work, yeah, and then you know that affects all of the things that you're doing as well.
Speaker 1:There's only so much we can do, yeah, but I think what we can do, we need to like support each other in the doing right and in the talking and the conversation. So, but okay, so I you know. In the same vein, I would like to say that you do do good work and I do appreciate you as a man, you know, and I do think you are filled with integrity and I appreciate you for that, right, so so, but I really do understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because we've had this conversation, similar conversation, before yeah, and I think it's uh, you know, they're all uh difficult conversations to have, they're also delicate conversations, they're also uh emotionally and socially charged conversations Totally. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be having yeah, but I also think that we have to take a stand to it, and that's why I say in the podcast is I'm asking as many voices as I can get to come forward and to talk about whatever we're talking about. Yeah, even though I may disagree. Yeah, because the reality is that I can't change my mind unless I hear a different opinion. Yeah, even though I may disagree. Yeah, because the reality is that I can't change my mind unless I hear a different opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if I'm scared to speak because of cancellation, all of these type of things, we will never have those conversations. Right, that makes sense. That makes sense. I talked to Romeo about his experience of being a trans man. When I talk to some of my colleagues who are Nathaniel Hartley, who works at HFX, who's a trans man having that conversation and even having conversations with women- and two-spirit people, it's like, ah, because it's not my reality, I can't relate to it, because I've never even thought, yeah, it's the same thing about, you know, the Canadian Black experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just not part of my reality, right? So it never even came into my mind that. You know like, I came here and I started to think about that more because there are places you know where Black folks came up to find refuge and or, you know, also were part of slavery here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2:And you know, I was talking to one of my clients about that reality of the. You know that reality of the. You know, the Black experience here in Canada was the, a lot of the loyalists, so those folks who were kicked out when the British took over. There was a painting I think it was at Dalhousie, where it's like an old, like explorer ship, you know, a wood, I don't know, there's probably a name for them, right, but uh, the sails and all that shit. But and everybody on the ship, uh, was black, but they were wearing, like the traditional, you know, the top hat yeah like the you know the big frilly outfit, and I was just like whoa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not part of my understanding or my reality. Yeah, I don't have an opportunity to think about it. Yeah, because my life is filled with so many other different things I know, right yeah. And so if we do not have opportunities to have these conversations candidly, yeah, publicly, then it does not. We don't allow for it to happen in the world outside of him.
Speaker 1:And then I think that, like we said, the next step was all of us coming together in person to have these conversations. I mean, it's so important and there's so many that, and you know, we've been hanging out for some years now and we still all of us haven't gotten together. And you've been doing the work for how long? And you know it's like it's high time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:So we're working on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, no. I think all of these are good conversations to bring forward. Yeah, yeah, watching without naming at this point in time. Yeah, um, and that um, if you don't get invited to things.
Speaker 1:There are reasons for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, 100 percent um so, uh, you know, I think that is the beginning of that. Yeah, I think um further things, and I think part of it is also like the teasing out of some of those complexities. Yeah, I agree. In the same way that we talk about tattoo medicine Well, why does it bother me? And also, what would you say? Acknowledging that, in some ways, we do need protection, acknowledging that some of these things are actually very unsafe. Yeah, you know, that is true. Yeah, when it comes to we talk about land back and I would even say that land back is maybe not even necessarily the right term, because the reality is that there were never any agreements for the utter taking.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's actually been taken.
Speaker 2:It's just that we have been conditioned to believe that it's not our land anymore, and so I would say it's like back to the land, because it is our fucking land, right, and it is a continuation of the illusion of the doctrine of discovery. When we look to the court cases, when we look to the status cards or the Métis cards, or to all of these governmental systems that have been put in place by the colonial government to usurp our actual power, they are inserting their authority, which comes from the fact that they have guns, that they have police, that they have the military. That is not power, that's actually authority. Power comes through our languages, visual as well as oral, as well as our stories and actual relationship to that land, yeah, and so it's not land back, necessarily.
Speaker 2:Um, even though that's in the common vernacular, I would say it's back to the land, because when we go there we feel that fuck it.
Speaker 1:This is, this is actually our land yeah, you're on my territory because you never fucking took it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was your racist fucking insistence that we were not human. You look at the indian act. What the first indian act said uh, a person is anyone other than an indian. What the fuck you're telling me?
Speaker 1:that's not well, I kind of like it's funny, I was thinking about that today just in terms of like gender, you know, and kind of came up before about not like I don't say woman, you know, every day can be kind of different. Like, yeah, I can't say that I won't ever identify as a woman. Maybe I will when I'm 70, I have no idea, but it's just, it's very fluid. Like I feel like I'm two-spirit, but like what does that mean? It's not, I'm not really like two. I'm many things right, like stardust and I don't know buffalo bones and whatever the fuck I don't know. But why was I telling you that? What were we talking about? Okay, this is where I start, like I don't know why just like good?
Speaker 2:night. Yeah, no, I think, you know. Yeah, I think there is actually just so many more conversations that need to be had because we don't get an opportunity to have them.
Speaker 1:We don't I know.
Speaker 2:People are scared to have yeah.
Speaker 1:But you know what, you know, there were young folks, like young tattoo artists, coming out and talking about it on social media like just boom, like just saying it, and I'm like, wow, that's like some risky shit right there. Yeah, you know, and it's just I, you know, commend them for speaking out. It's uh dangerous. Like how do you protect them once they say shit?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't know yeah, I really don't know yeah maybe it's their wild youth that, just like they just oh yeah, I'm just gonna go for it like this, you know their immortality right. Like they have that, but I was just like, okay, uh, I don't know how to protect this person now, but, um, just keep whispering yeah I don't know how to protect this person now, but just keep whispering yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, until we get to the larger conversation, and I don't know where that goes after that. But I think, yeah, the important thing is to talk about it publicly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah and candidly talk about it, but it is.
Speaker 1:It's not just about that one person who causes harm. It's about, like that bigger conversation of who you know. What are my responsibilities? What is your role as a man? What's my role as a two-spirit person? What's the ex's role? What can we do? What's in our control?
Speaker 2:you know all that well, yeah, I think it is having that conversation of well, well, what are the protocols? Say, let's get specific when it comes to tattoo gatherings. What are the protocols that we expect when we show up to this place? That should be there, yeah, you know, above and beyond, the health implications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and when I say health, but what does that look like? Yeah, Does that look like. Is it written out? Is there a big poster? Do we send it to everyone, like I don't know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either, but you know, part of that is also the reality. I would say, like the growing pains of moving from just having enough of us doing the work, that we can have a gathering number one yeah yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Number two would be moving to a space of having enough gatherings that well, maybe we don't go to that gathering, maybe it's, you know, not everybody is going to agree with the things that we decide, for sure that we decide, but if there is a cohort of folks that do agree, you know, you know there was a letter that went around that was sent to all of the non-northwest coast individuals who were doing form line. Ok, that said, hey, here are the undersigned members who are part of this group that say why the fuck are you stealing our shit?
Speaker 1:I didn't say that it was a letter.
Speaker 2:It was a letter there is a letter that exists that sometimes gets sent to people who are doing form line and says hey, these are the folks that have signed on and put their name to say that we do not stand with you. And then you know, we were at one time we were thinking, you know different levels of how do we deal with that cultural appropriation question of people who are stealing our shit, which was actually the original name for this podcast, is the who's Stealing your Shit podcast. Was it when I first started?
Speaker 1:talking about doing a podcast. Then you're like I'm not sure how to do this.
Speaker 2:My anger maybe moved further in the years.
Speaker 1:Possibly yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and I would say that you know different levels of escalation of like, okay, that letter got actually sent to a museum. In it was either Russia or Germany. Oh yeah, which was hosting these folks who were coming forward, these Russians who were. No, you know there was a whole Facebook post because they had this museum exhibition and it was all about indigenous people, but there were no indigenous people part of this exhibition and it was like at a prominent institution yeah I think it was in germany, but I can't totally remember.
Speaker 2:And then there was this post that went out and it said the indian crew is ready. And when you looked at it, you had people that were dressed in button blankets. You had people that were dressed in, you know, holding coppers. You know there were people that were painted wearing planes regalia.
Speaker 1:These are non-Indigenous people.
Speaker 2:All people from Russia and Germany. Oh my God, and the Indian crew is ready and they were, you know, propped up in front of, like a house front, oh my God. And it said the Indian crew is ready. And they were, you know, propped up in front of, like a house front.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, so a West Coast?
Speaker 2:house front and so that letter went actually to that museum and of course they didn't reply. Yeah, and so for me is like maybe that's the next level of what we're actually talking about is taking some of those ideas of like, okay, we've all met, these are the folks that have met. We are here, the undersigned, members of whatever, or not even members, but folks who agree with this set of protocols that we expect to be part of this gathering, this event that we're coming to as practitioners and if those collectively we agree with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you know, if you don't show up to places and everybody doesn't show up who are part of that, you're going to actually know that that place has something changing happening. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. And then also you, I know that you've said before that Maori have gatherings often, yeah, and their practices are more advanced in terms of that kind of robust communication and protocols, and so maybe we could. I don't know, someone can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it's. Three or four times a year they have a wananga or a gathering.
Speaker 1:That's crazy.
Speaker 2:That they discuss about, and it's not for people to get tattooed Right, it's actually for practitioners to have conversations, yeah, to say, like, what do we do about this question of cultural appropriation of moko? What do we do about this question of cultural appropriation of moko? What do we do about people you know doing this, that or the other thing? So I would say that that would be that type of place that this conversation could come forward.
Speaker 2:It's like hey, there's this thing we're talking about in this general sense. How do we deal with it in the macro level, which then informs the micro reality?
Speaker 1:yeah, right, I think one of the challenges is there's so many nations yeah right, the sovereignty question yeah, like you know, people have their own governance systems and they don't like people kind of creating sort of protocols without them being consulted and they find it's like you know, stepping on toes a little bit and stuff like that. So I can see some people maybe not being as comfortable with it, but I think that's also. But these are individual choices.
Speaker 2:We're talking about us as individuals, yeah yeah, we're saying like hey, these are the things that we expect yeah it's like we expect you not to use dirty fucking needles, right, right, that's a protocol. Yeah, you know, we expect that. Um, you're going to use inks that are you know are coming from a reputable place, so that we can sure that people are not getting sick yeah where these are the expectations.
Speaker 2:So why couldn't we do those similar expectations when it comes to questions of the safety of our community? Yes, in that very concrete material and physical sense. Yeah, of like.
Speaker 1:Oh, who is?
Speaker 2:that Is that, siri? Yeah, probably. Oh, we got Siri back, yeah but yeah, those are the, you know, some of those things that are potentially part of this conversation. Yeah, that's not like, hey, you have to do this. No, it's like this if you don't, we won't be there that's right I think that's fair.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're pretty basic. You're not going to harm anyone, you're not going to groom anyone, you're not going to like I mean fuck like if you can't agree to that then, yeah, don't show up.
Speaker 2:You know big time, yeah, um, and so you know, maybe those are some of those things. Um, yeah, there's lots there.
Speaker 1:There's lots. Yeah, there's lots.
Speaker 2:For sure, there's no shortage of conversation If there's any episode that's going to get me canceled, this is going to be it. Bye.
Speaker 1:No, are you kidding, you're the godfather.
Speaker 2:I know you don't even like that title, but it's no.
Speaker 1:Are you kidding?
Speaker 2:You're the Godfather, I know you don't even like that title, but it's no, you know. I just think that it's important to put forward and to highlight, and I would also say to also push forward the reality that you know, there's harm comes from all places and that, no matter who that person is, no matter what they claim, it's important to do some research, unfortunately, to ensure, you know, we can't always trust that the places we're going to are safe or that person is a safe person, and I would even argue, sometimes that language again, is co-opted to trick us into thinking that we're going into a safe space. And I would say, sometimes even the claiming of being a safe space might be a red flag that needs to be looked into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or a person that's claiming to be. That's what I mean, yeah, and they talk the talk, but they're doing the opposite.
Speaker 2:And so I just put that out there for people to, no matter who you're going to, no matter where they're from, no matter what they're claiming, claiming to do your due diligence. Yeah, I think that's fair Just the same way that you look at, you know, you look at the designs, you look at their, you know all of those things. When I look at it, I look at the way their setup is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. I'm like how is this? Is this person? Are they? Do they have integrity, do they? How do they carry themselves? Yeah, you know, how are they representing their ancestors? I mean that that's really something that I take very seriously. You know so and and everybody knows that about me, it's like I'm not just talking the talk yeah, right yeah, so I mean, of course, we we all make mistakes, yeah, that's normal.
Speaker 2:But I feel like, in general, you will find out how a person is yeah, we all have our own humanity, we all have our own challenges, and sometimes we're fucking tired, so we don't do all the things we wish we would do. Sweet jesus, you know well, I do but what I'm really saying there is, um, as I always say and I have said, is uh, for people to be gentle with ourselves oh my god, that was another.
Speaker 1:That's another huge lesson is to you know as much as I have for other people, I'm always like are you okay If you want to stop, if you need water, do you need you know, and that's normal. That's like the care that we provide people to ensure that they're okay. I need to do that for me too, yeah, big time. Not do that sixth tattoo or?
Speaker 2:seventh tattoo, whatever the fuck.
Speaker 1:It was like okay, mel's doing another tattoo. This is not tattoo, this is not, this is not good. I mean, you just you're all you're so aware that people are, so you know they just want that transformation, they want that experience and they deserve it, yeah and I want to be there for them, you know, but it becomes like to, to my own demise, really. So I think that's been also a huge lesson. For me is like give yourself some grace.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, some time, some food, some rest, yeah, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and give yourself grace, because maybe you didn't step up that one time, maybe you didn't say the thing you wish, or you knew that you should have said yeah. So have grace with yourself in those situations as well, and it'll be us coming together to have those. Continue these conversations, but have those conversations amongst us as well as a community. Yeah, for whatever it is, whether that has to do with land, whether that has to do with language, that all has to do with the sovereignty of each community, and the reason why it's important for us to talk about ourselves from our own communities is that we honor each other's nation to have the sovereignty to make those decisions. Because if we're asking the Canadian government and we use this term land back, when we use all of these things, we have to step back from this idea of Indian, we have to step back from this idea of Indigenous peoples, because that's still homogenization, even though we've included the S, it's still's still homogenization with even though we've included the S, it's still in a homogenization of our realities. And to allow for the sovereignty of each community to step forward. And sometimes that means shutting our fucking mouth, because, because what place do I have to talk to the Inuit about their practices or the people in their communities.
Speaker 2:Maybe I could say you know to folks that I have connections with hey, there's something going on here with this person, this individual. You know this happened or they said this or they represented themselves this way. Is that true? Here's something for you to maybe look at. Do it or don't do it, that's up to you. But that is honoring the right to interact or to solve or whatever that with each community. And I would say you know that when you look at that in terms of the macro level of people who have been through situations of abuse and you know they don't want to report, they don't want to take steps to talk about it, right, and so we have to honor that person's sovereignty in the same way with communities. So, taking that micro where we a lot of times can agree that that person hey, I've been through this thing, I'm telling you this in confidence, I don't want it to go any further, but I just have to share Right. And so we honor the sovereignty of that individual.
Speaker 1:Well, a lot of tattoo sessions are like that right, they're just like oh my God, it's like. I got like I just have this whole thing and you're, you know, and you carry it for them, hold it for them while you're doing the work and hopefully have a way to process it once they're once they're gone, right.
Speaker 1:But wow, like the stories, yeah, holy, not not just like traumatic ones, but just amazing, you know, like things to celebrate and to recognize and to. Oh. There's just like so many stories and it's only been like six years.
Speaker 2:I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1:But when it is like a heavy story like that, wow, then I just find that the mark is so powerful for them. You know like they're able to just feel like a chunk of it fall off or and literally something happens in that moment. You know they're waiting for a phone call. It comes through. They're waiting for someone to tell them something. It comes through there. I don't know what, you know whether it's internal or external, but it happens. It's like fucking, like I don't know, it's like magic yeah it's a miracle, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I would say for me, my own realization is that the mark and the process of being marked is actually the thing that does the healing. It's actually not for me, those conversations, those people allowing themselves to give yeah, it's actually them For me, it's them doing that internal work.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's really what it is about, because so many times we don't get an opportunity to go within in a place that holds us, allows us to do that. So for me, that is to the place where I have come, where, even though people do share some little things with me, I don't ask questions. I don't go into it, I just let them speak what they need to speak, and then we go into the work because it's actually the work, that is what is important.
Speaker 1:That's tend to have like long conversations, I don't know. I I just, I don't know, like people just tell me things and then we're just like, yeah, and we'll have tea or something, whatever, whatever happens. But it's really like I don't know if that's just the way I am, that's my process, what's our process together, me and the person. But, um, it certainly becomes, it's just all. I don't know whether it's like a release. The mark is what is the transformation, that is the transformative piece, you know, like the talking allowing and then the mark. It's just like this culmination of something you know, yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:And then it continues, because then they want more and they call you back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think this has been an amazing conversation. I think it will be very valuable for the community to be able to refer to, to look at, to start to give an impetus maybe to start those conversations, because it's no longer in the whispers, it's no longer in the shadows, it's out there that, hey, this is some shit you got to deal with, and it's no longer in the shadows, um, it's out there that, hey, these, this is some shit you got to deal with and it's very important. And I would say that it's uh another foundational piece in the next level of what we are doing in the revival of our ancestral skin marking is uh ensuring that we are uh doing these things with the utmost integrity and having collectively coming to a decision of how do we deal with this, yeah, and just do the best work we can for our community.
Speaker 1:How do we serve in the best way that we can Big time?
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah, like I said, dope conversation. I want to just give an opportunity for you to share or bring up any topic that you feel that you want to. If you think we have done that work already, that's okay, but I always come to the end and, as I usually do, just ask is there anything else that needs to be shared or said or talked about?
Speaker 2:um, we don't have to go, maybe, into it fully, but yeah just giving that opportunity because, you know, we're creating an archive for those who are coming next, and maybe we don't even have it figured out, maybe it's just a question, because, uh, you know, I think sometimes, you know, uh, the quality of our life is based on the quality of the questions that we ask ourselves yes, even though we don't have the answers. Yes, because I don't think we've given any real answers, we've just explored some.
Speaker 1:I don't have any answers yeah, I do have some answers, but yeah, I mean, I think just remembering who is supporting you is just so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:And remembering that you can't do it alone. And I think that's just and trusting trusting the process and trusting your community and trusting your ancestors like they're there. You just need to ask them for help, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome. Well, I appreciate you coming on the Transformative Marks podcast and again, I hold you up in the work that you have done and acknowledge the fact that sometimes you're taking those hard steps when others are not and sometimes getting flack for that, sometimes different pressures. But I just acknowledge the fact that you are doing that and I hold you up for it and because of it. And that is, you know, because I acknowledge it and I see that stuff and not everybody gets to see it. But, yeah, I lift you up.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Hi hi.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved, and that we need you, here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.