Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Reviving Ancestral Traditions: Indigenous Tattooing, Identity, and Modern Adaptations with Missy Mahan
#058 Prepare to be inspired by the incredible journey of Missy Mahan, an Indigenous tattoo artist with roots in the Tohono, O'odham, Yuchi, and Muscogee Nations. With over a decade in the tattoo industry, Missy has skillfully woven her cultural heritage into her art, co-owning Desert Bloom Tattoo in Phoenix, Arizona. Discover how Missy navigated the challenges of the pandemic with financial creativity, all while deepening her connection to ancestral tattoo traditions. Through her lens, we explore the profound cultural significance of traditional facial markings and their role in tribal identity and coming-of-age ceremonies.
Listeners will gain insight into the ongoing debate about authenticity in indigenous tattoo practices. We explore how to balance traditional methods with modern techniques, highlighting the adaptability of cultural practices over time. We discuss the importance of visual language and lived experiences, challenging the notion that authenticity is solely tied to ancient methods. Through personal anecdotes and historical examples, Missy offers a fresh take on what it means to authentically embrace one's heritage in the contemporary world.
Join us as we celebrate the vibrant Indigenous tattoo and music festival on Turtle Island, where collaboration among artists and musicians breathes life into cultural traditions. Despite the challenges posed by the pandemic, the festival has become a beacon for cultural exchange, with aspirations to expand nationally and internationally. Tune in for an enlightening journey into the world of indigenous tattoos and the artists committed to keeping these powerful traditions alive.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Missy at:
Instagram @missymahanart
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture
I just wanted to tattoo. Yeah, that was something I wanted to do since I was 14. I knew I wanted to tattoo. I'm like I was gonna make it happen somehow one way or another. I want to tattoo, but doing our ancestral tattoos, that was until way later, probably just recently, like maybe the last few years, but I didn even, you know, think of that.
Speaker 2:I just wanted that too the transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk, professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Missy Mahan Ezeiti. I come from the Tohono, O'odham, Yuchi and Muscogee Nations, Phoenix, Arizona, Haudochee, Muscogee Nations, Phoenix, Arizona, Hotochinay. My paternal side, my family, is from Polkat Ceremonial Grounds of Oklahoma and maternal side Viachin Village of Hikiwan District.
Speaker 2:Cool Mm-hmm. So how long have you been tattooing?
Speaker 1:This year's been 12 years oh cool, 12. You been tattooing um. This year's been 12 years oh cool, 12 years of tattooing so what was that journey? Uh, getting to this point, um, definitely had its ups and downs but, yeah, definitely a lot of fun. Yeah, fun journey so far yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:So you're up here to start getting some work done.
Speaker 1:What are?
Speaker 2:we going to be doing.
Speaker 1:Pretty much a combination of my Yuchi side. Yeah, the women had arrows up along their arms and kind of like a star spooled symbol. Yeah, so we're going to do a combination of that and whatever you come up with up along their arms and kind of like a star spooled symbol.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're going to do a combination of that and whatever you come up with, cool Mm-hmm. So well, just as we're getting started, I just have to say I'm honored that you've asked me to do this work for you. I'm super stoked to do that and it's always an honor and a bit nerve wracking when other artists ask you to do the work. But you know, I just have to express this and that, as we're getting going, you have a shop. As I understand it, how long have you had the shop? What's the name?
Speaker 1:And tell me all about it my both my sister and I we own the desert bloom tattoo in phoenix, arizona, yeah, and we have been open since 2019, so five years, and kind of went through the whole pandemic when we first opened, so that was so right when we first opened, so that was so right when we opened. You know, we had to get shut down, so so that was a journey too in itself, but, um, we got through it and still still open and doing our thing.
Speaker 2:What did you do to help get through, uh, that time, in terms of cause, you still had rent and everything to pay. So what was it that got you through that?
Speaker 1:Definitely our own doing. We're definitely smart with our money so we definitely have our emergency kind of funds. So that definitely helped with situations like that and just trying not to stress over it. Yeah, you know, just yeah it's like things happen for a reason and you know we didn't. It's like okay, we're given this time for something, so let's think about you know what we could do with this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And did stuff like that and I definitely kind of spend that time painting as well, but it definitely helped with trying to get my mind off of like, okay, when are we going to open? How long are we going to be closed? What are we going to do?
Speaker 2:When you think about the work that you do. How would you describe it? Do?
Speaker 1:you do something specific that you find is what you're focusing on, or what type of work do you like? I like to do all kinds of work. I like to do a lot of black and gray color, but what I really like to do is a lot of our ancestral whether it's basket designs, my actual ancestral facial dot work as well, um, ancestral facial dot work as well, um, but pretty much the combination of just our basket designs. Um has been what I've been into lately and kind of concentrating on more, and I think it's been showing a lot because clients have been coming to me a lot wanting seeing you know these um designs and wanting more. So it's definitely transitioned to more of my ancestral basketry designs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the one thing I really enjoy about your work number one it's like super fine, nice, clean work. You know I'd say probably way cleaner than my work, but it's beautiful and I would say the the thing it's not. It's not just that. The stuff that makes your work unique is that it's not just the basketry designs, because I do primarily just the designs, the motifs, whereas you do, uh, more of like a black and gray kind of realism of the basket itself that contains those designs. So what drew you to taking that step to do it as more of like a black and gray realism?
Speaker 1:I think I kind of just took it literally when clients would ask me like, oh, I want some basket designs, so I'm like, okay, well, let's actually do a basket. You know that's how I saw it. You know I didn't really interpret it as you know. Just a design somewhere until maybe later, but yeah, it was just, my mind went towards just an actual basket itself. So I would come up, you know, with my sketches and just tattoo an actual basket, yeah. And then I definitely noticed the progression of the detail in my basket work too, of tattoos. I would say, like my first small little basket I did was on my mom and I saw the little details that how I do it now.
Speaker 2:So I definitely saw the progression in that, yeah, so so it was just a natural, like this is the way my mind interprets that request. And then you did it, and then, as you go along, you're like ah, I missed that.
Speaker 1:That certain you know, you know, uh, detail to make it more and more looking realistic right to make it more like an actual woven basket.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, yeah, I just wanted to pull on that string a little bit and explore it a little bit, because when I started thinking about it I was like, yeah, that would be cool it. I was like, yeah, that would be cool and then I was like, fuck, no, you know the amount of what, would you say, like the detail that you put into it is, you know, is a lot and it's, you know, I like getting a lot of coverage done, right, right. But yeah, no, it's interesting to just explore it a little bit. And so, uh, do you find that clients are like requesting that more or more of just the motif or the design, or is it a combination?
Speaker 1:a little bit of both. Um, yeah, definitely more 50-50. Some either want it more as like a band or, you know, like kind of cuff designs as well, and some just actually want the basket itself. So definitely a combination of both.
Speaker 2:You may not know, but just a thought that comes to mind. Is it that people want a specific familial basket like this is a basket from my family, so they would like it recreated or is it. They just want that design. But on a basket? Do you know what I'm asking?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's definitely. They kind of tell me more um, in depth of their story. Someone would be like, oh, this is my uncle's basket and he always had this one, and they'll just show me a picture and then I'm like, okay, I'll create something, but it's mostly just the baskets itself, and then we kind of go off of that, whether it's cactus blossoms or a lot of hummingbirds and butterflies. It definitely kind of represents more of a, you know, family type of design, but it's mostly have been the baskets itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's what people will either like. Send me a photo of their family baskets and I'm like, okay, this is just awesome in itself, so let's just actually do the baskets.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool, yeah.
Speaker 1:so I'll kind of more just be like, yeah, let's do the basket. I like the challenge of doing the details and the actual making it look woven is fun for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cool, you love that getting in there and inspecting it. Cool getting in there and inspecting it yeah. Cool, you do a lot of combination of the basket and then also putting in some more color pieces, you do a combination. So tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:With our autumn baskets. They're not really very colorful to begin with.
Speaker 1:It's just mostly, you know, the earthy kind of beige tones, with the yucca itself and then the darker pieces from the devil's claw. So I like to keep it pretty simple, because that's really what we use. We didn't really have very many colorful baskets to begin with, so I like to just keep them simple and, you know, with the black and gray, and then we'll kind of do a pops of color with you know whether it's the flowers or you know anything else we add in there. But I definitely like the combinations of both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, helps it pop right, because you can see that contrast between the two kind of those, like you said, those earthy kind of black and gray brownie colors, and then the pop of the other color helps that to contrast. So it's really cool and, I would say, pretty distinctive. I would say as well. Um so, yeah, props to you. It's pretty cool to to see it and, yeah, when I first seen it I was like, oh, dang awesome. Um so, how many people do you got at your shop?
Speaker 1:uh, right now we have three, including myself, tattoo artists and then my sister. She's a hairstylist, so we have our own separate you know section. So she has her room in the back and us artists are in the front, so I have a whole combination of tattoo salon.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I notice that's been a big kind of boom lately with the tattoos and salons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so are all of the artists indigenous, or do you have a non-indigenous artist?
Speaker 1:They're all indigenous yep.
Speaker 2:Cool. What is that? Have you worked in shops that included non-Indigenous artists?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah. So what do?
Speaker 2:you find the difference between having a shop full of Indigenous artists as compared to working in shops that have a mix of folks I would say more of I don't know what would you say More?
Speaker 1:I guess? Just conversation really in general, like if someone were to be like oh, you know, we want you know especially more. So with clients, with our indigenous clients, we kind of appreciate the meanings more and we kind of can appreciate and understand where they're coming from, whether it's you know a design or whether it's you know something custom, that's family-related or tribal-related, we kind of understand that more. And then when it's just talk or banter, you know, even when we talk about the res, you know we understand the res, life, we understand. You know just the little inside jokes of yeah, you know, stuff like that. So it's definitely, yeah, we get each other yeah, if you will, totally yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I just uh because I guess I've always worked in shops. That's mixed and but it's always interesting to have, like I always say my, you know the other artists in the shop and their clients always get like pretty good insight to Indigenous folks. You know, Indige 101, you know.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Activists and scholars and, yeah, you know, getting just everybody in. People from all across the Indigenous world come and they get a pretty good understanding of like us as indigenous people.
Speaker 1:It's pretty interesting, yeah not that working with other you know races or people is bad, it's just. It's definitely more of like a special camaraderie when when you get to surround yourself with all Indigenous artists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I find the diversity is nice, but I can also see how sometimes that common understanding of not having to explain everything all the time would have a lot of value and you'd be able to. What would you say? Like yeah, like you say, like little jokes, or you know just things that you would understand that not everybody is going to understand, just because it's just not part of who they are, or you know, some of that's, also TV shows, some of that, right, all of that stuff is all part of that which, you know, most of us see or at least have some connection to some of that stuff.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I could see how that would be valuable. But, yeah, I don't mind working with you. Know, I, I love all my, uh, non-indigenous colleagues, right? Um, but yeah, I could see how it would be powerful. I think if I had a shop, that's what I want is all indigenous. Part of that would be powerful. I think if I had a shop, that's what I'd want is all Indigenous. Part of that would be, I would say, being able to support other young, up-and-coming Indigenous artists. Because I just think back to my own journey of yeah, it was just me and one Polynesian dude in the convention, you know. So, yeah, to be able to have a shop with all Indigenous folks and it is pretty cool, yeah, yeah, um, so we, uh, so we're going to be doing like a blast over some of your older work.
Speaker 2:Tell me about why you want to Blastover of some of your older work.
Speaker 1:Tell me about why you want to blast over that stuff. It's, I don't regret my tattoos. You know they're fun and silly and I love them, but they just don't really resonate anymore as tattoos for me to wear them. I still get compliments on them a lot, but still I'm just kind of like. I'm like I was young, early 20s. I'm like, yeah, like I don't know, I'm still kind of somewhat. I'm like, and it doesn't really make sense as a whole one piece, but yeah, yeah, I love them, but yeah, I just want something a little more cohesive, something, something that's going to be more a representation of myself, which is you know my ancestral tribal tattoos or designs.
Speaker 2:Yeah cool. Yeah, yeah, no, I yeah, it's just always. I mean, I've blacked out. I had a culturally appropriated Mari sleeve which I had blacked out, and then I had uh, you can still see a little dragon at the top but that was my first tattoo, a little tribal dragon nice, but yeah so I totally get it. It's just time to get rid of it. And then, yeah, I blacked out my leg. Part of that was just to learn how to use the the machine but, uh, you, because I built a machine to do the blackout, uh.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's just interesting to hear why people want to. It just doesn't fit, you know I get it. It's just not who you are. Plus as you get, as you tattoo more and you learn more about tattoos. You're like I kind of do want this all to be one thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do love the thing about blast overs is it's still there. You can still little pieces of it will peek out that you know, that you can see. So it's all part of your story, really. So, yeah, um, yeah. When you think about uh, yeah, yeah. When you think about oh, you had mentioned about the facial markings, so tell me more about, yeah, that work and when did you get into that and what brought you to doing all the facial markings and stuff like that like that.
Speaker 1:Um, it pretty much. I started doing that, just my family asking me to do um the facial markings. Well, I should probably explain it first, but usually traditionally back in the day, um, the women most of the women in our tribe would get the facial markings. Yeah, usually after like a coming of age ceremony. Yeah, so that's when women would get their dot work and that's usually how you could tell, like, which village they're from. Okay, you know, I was told, you know, way back when you know our women in our village, they were stolen. So that's usually a way how you would tell what village they're from, whether it was like Chin or you know, temples, bridge of the nose, wrists Our wrists are tattooed as well. So that was, yeah, usually how we would tell what village they're from. With the dot work, those were made from like prickly pear needles, so waro needles, just kind of wrapped up and, you know, just kind of go at it with, like whether it's like charcoal, like soot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what we I was told we would use. Yeah, but yeah, I started doing that with family members and I would tattoo them. And then, just kind of gradually, I was being asked. It was kind of word of mouth Like, oh, you know, I heard you did so-and-so's, you know, can you do mine and my daughter's? And so now it kind of became a word of mouth and just kind of been doing those for our community.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, yeah. What does that feel like when you get to do those?
Speaker 1:It feels amazing, yeah, like I'm like beyond honored to actually do that. And you know, just hear these stories from these women, stories from these women, and they'll just kind of like, tell me, you know, if you know they went through ceremony. They're what they did and usually you know, like I said way back, when you're supposed to get them when you were younger. But you know, some elders now are against getting them so young, and so now you know, a lot of the elders are starting to get their dot work. So now you know, a lot of the elders are starting to get their dot work. And yeah, it's just been kind of unreal like hearing you know someone be like oh, you know someone so told me about you and you know you did their dot work. And so I'm like, oh, wow, okay, cool, yeah, that's awesome and beyond honored to do it as well.
Speaker 1:And then of course you get the folks that are like, oh, that's awesome and beyond honored to do it, yeah, as well. And then of course you get the folks that are like, oh, that's not the traditional way, you shouldn't be doing it in a tattoo shop, and it's like, well, it's a clean way, it's a sanitary way, that's what I was told. That's what I know. You know, um, my clients are, you know, in aitary environment, so I've definitely been getting the grief of you know it's not super traditional with traditional tools. So I'm like I've been trying to figure out a way how, like how can I do, you know, our ancestral tools with the saguaro needles? But that's kind of been a whole other journey I've been trying to do, seeing how I can maybe incorporate those in a sanitary environment as well.
Speaker 2:So, that's been a journey as well. Yeah, big time. I'd like to explore that a little more, but I'm just going to put a pin in it for a moment. Um, when you, when you have the elders coming in to get those marks um? What is that? Like you know, like that must be a pretty cool experience to have an elder who's you know lived for this long, and then now they're like fuck yeah, just do it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. Yeah, I'm like this is awesome, this is amazing. Yeah, absolutely, I would love to do that for you. I had one client in particular. She was going through her own ceremony and she was like, you know, I'm going to do my fasting. You know, I had my little hut built and we're gonna, you know, do it my way. We're gonna have my own ceremony. You know, we'll have songs and stuff and everything like that's amazing. I'm so glad I could have a little piece of you know, your, your journey, yeah, to do that. So we did her her markings and then, you know, she did her her ceremony. So I was honored, I could do that for her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, when you started, did you? Were you thinking about doing ancestral marks or were you you just wanted to tattoo?
Speaker 1:I just wanted to tattoo.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was something I wanted to do since I was 14. I knew I, I knew I wanted to tattoo. I'm like I was going to make it happen somehow one way or another. I want a tattoo. But doing our ancestral tattoos, that was until way later, probably just recently, like maybe the last few years, but I didn't even, you know, think of that. I just wanted a tattoo.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And even maybe the last year or two year and a half, I discovered that my Yuchi tribe practiced tattooing, and I had no idea because it was a completely dead practice. So none of my elders really know much about our tattoos other than just what you can find in literature. So, yeah, it's just been like, oh, my goodness, like eye-opening. Like we, I had no idea. We, yeah, practiced tattooing. And so now I even got, um, the blessing from my chief. You know he's like, yes, go ahead and use these designs and tattoo himself. That was awesome too in itself. So definitely want to kind of revitalize that Uchi side as well. So doing that means a lot, and for him to give me that blessing as well was like oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:This is awesome, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of cool to think like because, yeah, you know, I wanted to tattoo since the first time I got tattooed, which was before I knew that we had a tattooing practice. I kind of I stumbled upon our you know, literature from our my community before I started tattooing, are my community before I started tattooing.
Speaker 2:But then it was like, after finding that, finding out you know how important this work is in other communities, I was like fuck, I gotta revive that you know yeah so it's pretty cool to think and you know I always like to take those opportunities also to lift up family, because a lot of time family is the ones that kind of help us get started in these things. You know, sometimes they're the first guinea pigs, so just props to all the families out there who help us you know, do this work in the way that we need to do them?
Speaker 2:um, but yeah, no, that's pretty cool to hear that when you started, it wasn't even in your mind to do this ancestral work and then, just because you are an indigenous person, tattooing people are like all right we need this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when, uh, oh, uh. Going back to the tools, yeah, it's an interest. I think it's a a reoccurring conversation that happens all the time. You know, I've uh, navigated it in my early days. I think it's still, uh, something that comes up, even you know, just in being in indigenous tattoo circles, in terms of I actually call it a hierarchy of authenticity, like people claim that you know, uh, the are, some people's marks are not as authentic because they're not done with ancestral tools and technology, and for me it's like, well, you know, uh, I always look to even our baskets.
Speaker 2:When I look at our baskets, you go into the museum collections and you'll see, even there's an example on the wall. That's one of our ancestral baskets from, you know, 100 years ago. You know, just after contact, uh, because ancestrally we wouldn't have used that style because it doesn't make sense, right? So it was actually created for a secondary market, a settler market, right? And so you can actually see in the way that our ancestors, just after contact, way that our ancestors, just after contact, started to modify, you look at even, uh, we would paint our clothing, so we had ochre painted clothing. And then you can see in the uh, when you go into the museum collections.
Speaker 2:It went to embroidery and then it went into beadwork, because none of us everybody's who's using beads are that's not a traditional material unless it was made. You know you're, because sometimes you do have, uh, ancestral beads and technology, but glass beads, all the fancy colored beads, that's not ancestral, traditional, quote-unquote traditional materials. And so why then do we, as ancestral skin markers, have to relegate ourselves back to ancestral tools and technology to be authentic and to share? Because, for me, it's more about the visual language than it is about the way that it's applied. Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that when you are skin stitched or your hand poked or your hand tapped, that is a different experience and you may have a different experience when those tools are used. However, that doesn't invalidate the tattoos that are done that are not that way, right. So it's like, also for me, like also for me, like a weird uh, there's also a weird relationship with shame there that I just don't doesn't jive with me. You know it's more reminiscent of, um, you know well, number one, christianity. Number two anthropological definitions of who.
Speaker 2:We are Right Because we view anthropological definitions of who. We are right because we, when you look at it, even in terms of our uh, you know land claims disputes, you know, our practices have to look like they used to look like for them to be validated as authentic and therefore a continuation of who we were to give us rights in the present. So for me, it's like no, let's like actually fight against those things and argue that my friend, uh julie, uh palma pangali, who's maori, uh she did the the uh puhoru on the iran out there, um julie says, actually our most authentic selves are the selves that are alive today because, we're the only implica maori yuki people alive today.
Speaker 2:So how can we be inauthentic because we're the only ones who are alive today, right, right, so you know. Just some food for thought there, putting it out there. Um, I always like to have these conversations, and part of that's also to do it publicly, so other people can, uh, get the benefit of it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, um yeah, so I'm not discouraging you from doing that, I think it's important work. It's powerful, but um, it doesn't you know. Uh, there shouldn't be any shame around not doing it Right, right Got you.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I just wanted to put that out there.
Speaker 2:Bring that forward and you know food for thought, and I think everybody also navigates it their own way because you know some of us want to do that, want to do that, but then you know, when you think about this idea of authenticity, for me it's like um, that's the anthropologist who says that we're salvaging this stuff before they die, right, but for me it's like no, you know?
Speaker 2:uh, like my academic mentor, jeanette Armstrong, says yes, we can hold hands with the past, but I don't want to give up my dishwasher or my washing machine.
Speaker 1:Right, I like that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So have you explored any like? Have you thought about how you would start to bring that into your current studio? Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new. Consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Um, not not yet. Well, just kind of the thought of it. Yeah, because you know, of course, you know harvesting my own needles and stuff, you know. But I'm like, okay, how would I go about the whole sanitization process? You know how we have our needles and whatnot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's like, do I just throw them in an autoclave? See what happens, you know, but I haven't gotten that far yet, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean, I think that actually brings up a really good point when I think about it is part of the value when I think about it is also that traditional ecological knowledge that you have when you go to do that, because you're not only reinvigorating some of the ancestral skin marking but you're reinvigorating the knowledge around how to harvest those plants, when those plants should be harvested or shouldn't be harvested. You know the relationship you're building with those plants is also important. So, yeah, there's a lot of awesome things in that as well. But again, I just said, you know, let's not shame people for the marks that they have, because for me it's more about the marks as opposed to the way that they're done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say, you know, uh, when I think about, uh, the work that kione and a lot of the hand tappers that use bone, um, a lot of that is uv sterilization okay and then, like, when I think about it, when I think because I've done some bone tools, when you were thinking about coming up here and, um, you know, having this conversation, cause I asked you to do the podcast were there any questions or things you wanted to explore with me? Um, yeah, just so, this is kind of a conversation, so I'm not asking grilling you with everything, um nothing really, in particular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I guess you kind of like answered what I was thinking. You know, you kind of went through that whole process of you know like using, like the bone tools.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And stuff like that, and how you went about that. I guess, yeah, trying to incorporate traditional tools into what you do, and you know, I guess yeah, like, should I keep? Just, you know, don't worry about it, or like I guess it was just kind of more curiosity too and like kind of something you know just to try and you, you know, seeing how that will work out.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I guess, if you you kind of already went through that process and do you prefer, I guess, your your machines over your tools, or yeah, I guess yeah, something yeah, yeah, explore that a little yeah I think, uh, the way I always kind of explore that is, uh, it's got to be the right tool for the job, right and so, um, and I also what I think about that is sometimes I go, this should be skin stitched or this should be hand poked or this could be either one. But because we're doing a full body suit, we're going to use machine.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, or we only have this amount of time. So maybe we you know, I've done it where I've done a combination as well, because some people like to have the experience of being skin stitched or hand poked, but maybe they don't want a whole piece like that, they just want to experience what it's like to be tattooed, like our ancestors were tattooed.
Speaker 2:That's what Keone says is you know, with the hand tapping, it says there's nothing today, that you can do almost nothing. You can do today in the same way that your ancestors did. That makes you feel the same thing that they felt, so I think there is obviously value in doing it.
Speaker 2:It's just allowing for the diversity of practices in the Indigenous world and not casting shade on anyone for it, because those things are the things that separate us. And not casting shade on anyone for it, because those things are the things that separate us and that's the way that colonization and the destruction of our cultures wins is when we're separated. But when we come together, that's where we have the strength and we can hold hands together going into the future, as opposed to being separated and factioned because of these little nuances that, in my opinion, aren't as important as it is to be marked period, right. But I think your intuition is also really good, because you're thinking well, how do I do this in a way that honors the safety of my clients in terms of the health aspects of tattooing, right? Like you know, when you talked about it, that was the number one thing that came forward. It was like how do I ensure that everybody's safe? Because that's what you're asking when you're saying how do I worry about cross-contamination and bloodborne pathogens and all of those things?
Speaker 2:How do I make sure it's clean and sanitary right. For me that's about safety, and I always put that in the context of well, in the context of genocide, because pathogens were used to kill our people, right Like those, and these are colonial pathogens that have been brought here, and so why would we help with the genocide of our people by spreading those things? And when I say that, that's not to look down on anyone who is living with any of these pathogens, any of these, you know, hepatitis or HIV or any of those things. That's not a negative thing. It's just that we cover our mouths for the same reason, when we cough is we're just protecting each other, you know, protecting each other community. So we don't want to get others sick in that same type of way. So it's an important question to ask, and how do we navigate it? For me, part of it is also like when I do some of that work, I don't do it in the shop.
Speaker 2:You know, do it in community because, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People state, and I think it's Articles 11 and 31, talk about we have a right to the reinvigoration of our cultural practices right, and so, as a right, you have a right to do those things in that way. So I would also say that, in that respect, the using of ancestral tools and technology helps that argumentation to say that this is our cultural practices.
Speaker 2:And so we're going to do this in the way that we need to and, you know, just the same as with a convention, you could bring your setup to wherever you need it to be, to be safe and sanitary for everyone who's involved, right, and so bringing that culture into that cultural space. So, whether that's a gathering place, you know, I've tattooed on the land, I've been tattooed on the land, I've been tattooed in the bush. All of that stuff, um, you know, relates back to those rights we have as indigenous peoples. Yeah, yeah, sermon done, right. What is the process that you go through when you are? Oh, that's why, when you, you know, when somebody comes to get a tattoo, what's the easiest way for people to connect and reach out to you and what's that process to get tattooed?
Speaker 1:Usually just reach out through email and we'll kind of do an in-person consultation. So definitely like that in-person getting to know someone and discussing. You know their story and what they want and they just kind of talk about it. That's all you have to do. And then I definitely come up with something like right there on the spot like, oh, I have this idea, let's do this and yeah, it's. Yeah definitely like to talk to people more in person yeah about any kind of artistic ideas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so people will reach out. Yeah, mostly through email, and I'm like let's talk, let's, let's discuss it, and then something will spark. But oh, let's do this, let's do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, I got the ideas already, so, yeah, Cool yeah, so it sounds like you have quite a depth in terms of your artistic ability, if you can just go oh, I got this idea and you're just running with it right away. You know, that's pretty cool, cause I know a lot. Not everybody has the ability to go like, because usually I have to take some time to like figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, some days, yeah, I'm like, okay, how am I going to do this?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, totally, yeah, yeah, no, um, do you have a lot of people coming from other places to get work done, like other indigenous folks from other communities?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, I've had some from california. Yeah, um, mostly, mostly around the southwest. Yeah, um has been, yeah, just that area from of, yeah, the us. Yeah has kind of been the closest, but no one from super far. I have a friend from Germany that likes to come over. He's not indigenous but he'll always come over from Germany and get some tattoos, cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. No, I always find that with indigenous artists, You'll just have people come in just because you're an indigenous artist. They'll come and get work done from you from wherever they're at. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Another client. He comes from Colorado and he'll come and visit us every time we do an indigenous tattoo and music convention. He'll always visit me there, but he's from, yeah, Colorado, so definitely that region of the US is where they come to visit Cool.
Speaker 2:So how many times have you done that convention? Have you done other conventions?
Speaker 1:A few local conventions, but I don't really do a whole lot of conventions, yeah. Yeah, I kind of get scatterbrained, you know, sometimes, so I normally like to stay in my own little bubble, yeah, at my shop, so, but but they are fun. I do like doing conventions, but I don't do a whole lot yeah, no, I've done.
Speaker 2:I've done quite a few um all over the place, but I'm kind of getting to the place where I'm like I just don't want to travel. Yeah, yeah, but you know, I would uh like to come down to that one, uh down there. But yeah, just timing this year, uh, next year probably yeah, yeah, that'd be awesome, yeah um, yeah, well, like just be awesome, partly because of all the podcasts I could do, but also to see everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is pretty cool yeah, and it.
Speaker 2:It's exciting that there's an indigenous convention in Turtle Island. That's fucking dope, you know.
Speaker 1:We're trying, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so cool. So tell me a bit more about that then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just a few other indigenous tattoo artists, um, kind of just, we all grouped together and we're like, yeah, let's kind of create our own tattoo convention that focuses on indigenous artists, you, you know, from all over. Yeah, so we had our first inaugural convention last year in November, no October, yeah, and that was pretty cool. Just seeing it all come together. You know, we had musicians, we had a had a whole like fest of musicians and just seeing it all come together and seeing, you know, the dances and performances, and just seeing all the artists, you know, was like, okay, like all that hard work paid off, just actually putting on a convention, that never I'm like, I never thought that I would, you know, do something like that or have the time or even. But seeing that it was indigenous we want to highlight indigenous artists it was like, hey, let's do this, let's do it all, let's do music, let's do dance groups, let's Bring them all in Awesome. Yeah, just seeing that is, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:How many a year are you going to have this year?
Speaker 1:Do you know I think we're about like maybe late 20s of how many artists we have this year so far?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we hope to bring more artists in every year. So we're kind of small. It's not like a crazy super big convention, but we're still pretty small. But we hope to have it grow within the next few years.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think it would be awesome. I think that's why I didn't go. Last year was because it's the same time in October as Toikiri year. Was because it's the same time in October as Toikiri, which is the indigenous convention in Aotearoa in New Zealand is usually kind of October around this time I think it's actually this weekend their convention.
Speaker 2:I saw that, and so my friend Julie always has me coming over there. This year I just have too many projects to get done. So I'm like no, I can't go, I gotta concentrate on getting this book project done, all of that stuff, um. But yeah, and then also yeah, with the convention down there I was like, ah so, but it's always that FOMO too right, like yeah, like oh, I'm not gonna everybody all that type of stuff, but yeah, it'll be on my books for next year.
Speaker 1:Awesome, yeah, yeah awesome.
Speaker 2:What is the name of it and when is it?
Speaker 1:just in case, people Indigenous Tattoo and Music Fest. It'll be November 22nd through the 24th in Albuquerque, new Mexico. It'll be November 22nd through the 24th in Albuquerque, new Mexico. We hope to kind of have it travel. You know, every year we definitely want to go all over. Yeah, would be fun. And even you know, tristan, she threw the idea. She's like have it in Canada. We're like okay. Let's see what we can do. So Tristan was like she'll be our in-person, Be like where do we go? What can we do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we thought about it in River Creek Casino near Edmonton. But we actually had it. We had the money to pay for it and everything. Then COVID, hit.
Speaker 2:And so we were like you know all of those quotes and everything that you got to pay for the venue and everything you know, two years later, right to be able to do that big of an event because we're going to bring people from all across. You know the Indigenous world, bring them from Aotearoa, bring them from Samoa, bring them from everywhere. But you know the indigenous world, bring them from out there, bring them from samoa, bring them from everywhere. But you know hawaiians, everyone but tahitians, you know taiwanese, but it just never happened, just because of covid. And then we were just like, nope, I guess it's not gonna happen yeah, but yeah, no, I think it'd be.
Speaker 2:it'd awesome. Yeah, there's a few things percolating, so you'll hear more about that.
Speaker 1:That'd be awesome, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying at a convention necessarily but some gatherings that'll be coming up, that I think would be good to have some more folks from down your way involved. I think, yeah, it's time to start making those connections, because when I look at the work that's happening in Aotearoa, it's like it is those gatherings that are so important. They have three a year. I think it's three, maybe four gatherings a year where they talk about things that have to do with Maori tattooing. Ok, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like, yeah, let's start doing that where they talk about things that have to do with Mari tattooing, okay, right.
Speaker 2:So it's like, yeah, let's start, you know doing that. And then for me it's also like how do we engage reciprocity? Because I think for me the work that's happened here has been so supported by the Mari right Like that relationship building, building. You know they were like 30 plus years into their revival, so a lot of that inspiration has come from there, from my own experience anyway. So yeah, it'd be cool to start to do that. But yeah, that's cool, it'll be in my books right one one day yeah, it'll happen where do you, because you definitely travel a lot.
Speaker 1:Where do you like? To?
Speaker 2:where's your, I guess the place you like to travel the most new zealand, yeah, nice, uh, part of that is, um, just because that they have been doing the work for so long. So you get a lot of opportunities to talk to folks about, say, the tools right. The Mari example. You know it hasn't been. You know they are sorry in the Mari example, like they've been in their revival for 30 plus years, but it's only been like the last 10 years that they've been starting to use the tools in any type of way.
Speaker 2:And so that's also one reason why I say if you make that argument that it's only the tools that make it indigenous, well then you have invalidated the last 25 to 20 years of Mari tattoo revival, right? If you're saying the only things that are authentic are the things that are done with ancestral tools and technology, what is the implications of those statements?
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:But yeah, new Zealand is one of my favorite places to go just because of the camaraderie and you know, justie, and you know just so welcoming. You know just our aunties and uncles down there who bring us in? Yeah, next year we'll have to get some of yous all down there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:That'd be awesome.
Speaker 2:Definitely connect that up and that's for me too is also making those connections, because for the longest time, it's been myself and nahan who have been the, the indigenous tattooers from okay canada and new zealand uh, or canada and the us uh yeah but yeah, the more that we can get out there, the more we represent absolutely and being able to share our cultures with them instead of them always giving to us.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it would be important to do that. Um, you know, samoa was awesome. Um, I, you know I went to spain for it was the traditional oh it's right there traditional tattoo and world culture festival in 2017. And I'm thankful that it was put on. But you know, julie said it was one of the impetuses for her to do Toikiri because of the way that we felt we were treated when we were there.
Speaker 2:Right treated when we were there right and so um more as like to validate the traditional part of the festival, when it was like most of the well, because every convention, you know, has a the busiest parts right right, and so it was all the white folks doing Maori work in those places and the indigenous folks were on the outside. So, yeah, um, it was the. You know the start of that. Um, yeah, I wanted to circle back to um the oh, did I answer everything in your question?
Speaker 1:um so I was kind of rambling for a while there no, you're good, um, because I know you do a lot of like heavy black work. Yeah, what do you like to do when you're not doing, um, like those designs and black work?
Speaker 2:I just like the black work yeah, yeah, okay, and I like stitching you know, I do like well, actually, I guess the last few months I've actually been doing a bit more color, even though I don't post it, but I do miss doing color sometimes. Okay, yeah, I'll get an opportunity to do some color and I'm like, oh, I kind of miss this. So, in my mind, some of the things that I've been thinking about exploring is, you know, in the body suits or things, is to have the heavy black work but then put more of those in place of the patterns, is to put some more, uh, you know, moving towards color realism, flowers, florals, those type of things. Uh, would be kind of cool, because then you get that contrast between those two things. But yeah, what's another?
Speaker 2:another thing to explore right yeah, so I guess I do enjoy that, and then I do enjoy skin stitching um, but it just takes way longer, right I? I? Just like part of me. I like that coverage.
Speaker 1:What's the biggest skin stitch piece you've done?
Speaker 2:If you look behind you, there's actually a photo right there that's all skin stitch and that's on my friend, of Fuwa and it's a story of the history of guyana. Um, and I won't tell the story, but uh, it's essentially a map, uh, that uh fuwa found, uh while visiting back home and, yeah, there's a whole story that goes along with it. It's a what would say it was a performance piece that we did, that. We skin-stitched on that and then I've skin-stitched a full sleeve. But yeah, there's lots of yeah, I would say that's the biggest.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, and I think, yeah, I think there is something very unique and different about those experiences. Oh yeah, Absolutely, and I think, yeah, I think there is something very unique and different about those experiences. Oh yeah, but absolutely.
Speaker 2:And valuable but, like I said, just giving space for diversity I think is important. Yeah, oh, going back now that I've answered that, answered that when you um have you what has been your experience in finding the meanings or descriptions of your patterns? Is there a lot of uh stuff available for your community in terms of what are those meanings, what do they represent? All those type of things?
Speaker 1:um, not a whole lot. There's definitely.
Speaker 1:You know you can see a lot of our designs like in museums and stuff, but a lot of them are from, I guess, family members, from my clients, and you know they'll be like oh, these are butterfly wings and these are this. And you know, we kind of all have like common kind of designs from our baskets, you know, from like squash blossoms to our man in the maze, our I toiki, but just those are pretty simple, common, more common I guess, designs that we have in our baskets, like I said, some like my Vivibot, she had her own kind of designs. I never really knew what the meanings were, yeah, but they definitely were like our coyote tracks, which is, you know, kind of like this here. So she kind of like elongated them and then she kind of like pretty much did her own designs that I haven't really seen Similar definitely.
Speaker 1:You know we have like our water wave designs, but she definitely she would put little people in there as well in her baskets. But yeah, so kind of we have like our common kind of designs that you generally see. And then you know we have like our family you know designs where you know they kind of come up with their own, which I definitely saw my great-grandmother she would kind of come up with her own. She'd throw little people in there and have her own designs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, it's cool to know that.
Speaker 2:that uh, for use as a coyote, a coyote pattern, that's cool yeah, for us, stars, uh fly pattern, uh sun pattern, of course, um, sometimes like birds uh, but it that would be dependent on the context of whatever else is around it in terms of um, yeah, so yeah, just kind of cool to see and then also, yeah, important to bring forward, because I just asked, because you know, those are sometimes clues for other people who are starting their own revival movements of like, where are the places that you find those things? And so, yeah, a lot of people think that they have to look at the academic literature. A lot of people think that they have to find those designs written down by a white person usually. But the reality is, what you brought forward is like really important to remember that sometimes those are family patterns right.
Speaker 2:And sometimes those are descriptions that come from that family and knowledge is kept there and kept safe in those places. So have those conversations. I guess is what I'm saying to people who are out there is have those conversations with your family and I'd also say it also brings forward.
Speaker 2:One of the important reasons why I've asked you to write a chapter for the book I'm working on is because we, as practitioners, have access to knowledge through our clients that nobody else does, and that's simply because they're entrusting us with that knowledge or they have the opportunity to share that knowledge, whereas the you know, an anthropologist or somebody who's coming into community wouldn't know to talk to that specific person, right. But we get access to that knowledge because this is what we do, right because this is what we do, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm, I guess, editing a collection of a book with a variety of indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, ancestral skin markers from across the world, and I've asked you to contribute a chapter. What was your first initial reaction?
Speaker 1:when you seen that request come through. Yeah, I was definitely wanting to share what I know and what I was told and how I got into tattooing and why I love tattooing and especially now doing more of my indigenous clients. So I'm like, yes, let's do it. And then I saw, like, okay, the references that you said of just kind of more of the professional part of it. I'm like, okay, how am I going to do that? I don't really write a whole lot, but I definitely would love to tell what I know and what I experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Cool yeah, so I was excited for that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, just the whole professional part of it was a little like okay, how do I do?
Speaker 2:that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Kind of intimidating yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to also do it, because it's an opportunity to help, you know us as practitioners, to share those stories from our voices, right, and so I'm I'm excited that you're, uh, willing to take the leap into doing some of that writing and putting it out there. And, yeah, I think it'll be a pretty cool book to be able to share all of our experiences. And, yeah, again, it will be a multicultural book in terms of Tonga, papua New Guinea, hawaii, yeah, all across Turtle Island.
Speaker 2:That's awesome yeah it'll be pretty cool to see um us sharing from our own perspectives.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, um, yeah, anything else you want to touch on?
Speaker 1:Um, I can't think of anything.
Speaker 2:Cool, I know tomorrow when we start talking and doing. I'm sure a lot more will just come out, yep, but yeah, no, uh again. When we start talking and doing, I know I'm sure a lot more will just come out. Yep, but yeah, no, uh again. I thank you for taking the time to talk with me on the transformative marks podcast. If anybody wants to get a hold of you, uh, what's the best way for people to book in and check out your?
Speaker 1:work. Uh, email is good. Um my instagram at MissyMahanArt. All my email information is on my website as well MissyMahan TattoosLLCcom, but the best way probably is Instagram. Got all my links up there and you can check me out.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you for visiting with me and I look forward to starting your tattoo tomorrow. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.