Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
From Frontlines to Skin Lines: Finding Balance Through Indigenous Tattooing with Anne Spice
#059 Anne Spice's journey into ancestral tattooing reveals a profound path toward healing that extends far beyond artistic expression. Beginning as casual practice at a land occupation, her work evolved when she returned to her Whitehorse community with a crucial shift in perspective—approaching people with service rather than extraction. "I went in thinking about how I could be of service," Anne explains, "and it was a game changer."
This conversation uncovers how Indigenous tattooing functions as literal medicine, marking significant life transitions from sobriety to grief processing. Working directly with her community health center, Anne has developed tattooing as part of their wellness practice, creating space for community members to honor their healing journeys through permanent marks. The physical pain of receiving a tattoo can release emotional pain stored in the body, reaching places "that our words can't reach"—a powerful tool in a world where Indigenous ceremonies marking life passages have been disrupted.
Anne speaks candidly about her frontline land defense experiences and how afterward, receiving a large back tattoo helped her process trauma physically when mental approaches weren't enough. This highlights a crucial aspect of Indigenous tattooing: helping people define themselves through cultural connection rather than opposition to colonial forces. "These aren't markings that make us separate, unique people," she reflects. "They're markings that mark us as part of a collective, as people in relation." For those working to revitalize ancestral practices despite gaps in knowledge, Anne offers encouragement: "It's really worth having the patience and sitting through some of the discomfort to get to the point where our communities start opening up again." Her words remind us that transformation happens when we connect through relationship, opening ourselves to collective healing that transcends individual experience.I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Anne at:
Instagram @annespicetattoo
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture
Yeah, and I think there's something about a painful kind of ceremony that can get it and getting into the body and really sort of feeling that that can get to places that our words can't reach.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:My name is Anne Spice. My Tlingit name is Anakhgut. I am from Kwantlen Dun, first Nation, which is in Whitehorse, yukon, deshetan clan, and I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So I guess like kind of take me on the journey of what got you into tattooing or ancestral skin marking, or however you'd like to frame that. What was that journey for you to?
Speaker 1:come to here. Yeah, I started in a really casual way when I was living at an indigenous land occupation in so-called BC. I had friends who were tattooing out there using all sorts of crappy needles and stuff. Um, I just thought it was so cool and uh uh, so I started practicing. Um, I had a friend who taught me and let me tattoo her. Um, she was like I have so many bad tattoos it won't be the worst one. That's always a good start. Yeah, I'm very grateful to have that tattooed fireweed on her. And from there I just started learning more about this as an indigenous practice, because, I mean, the people who are out at this land occupation were primarily kind of like white anarchist punks. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So they have their own tattoo culture, of course, and I kind of first came to it through that and then started digging into the ancestral practice of it, and I came across Nahan's work and had an opportunity to be tattooed by him, which is actually when we met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, later on I was like oh dang, that was you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I started thinking more about how to dig into the research. I was considering my own markings as well. I really wanted the chin marking, but I was really coming up against some barriers when it came to getting information about what kinds of facial markings we had and just some resistance in community to reclaiming those markings. And I hit a point where I finally was like this is as much information as I'm going to get from the written record, yeah, and I've asked around. I know we had them. I think I'm ready to do it. And then I had a dream where I had dreamt a friend of mine giving me the tattoo and the next day I was like let's do it right now. Yeah, was like let's do it right now, yeah, um, and then I felt like once I had the marking, I was felt more empowered to get into it myself and to really kind of dig into that as something that I could offer other people yeah, yeah, that's kind of funny.
Speaker 2:You know, like I said, I don't even remember when I realized that that was you, that uh Nahan was tattooing. What was that? 2018, I think, the opening of uh body language. We were all in vancouver and then, yeah, later on I can't remember when I realized, but I was like what, really like? Yeah, which is always. It's so funny, right, like how small our circles actually are. It's so funny to think like yeah, the connections that we have that we don't even know about. Right, yeah, it's so funny yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, there's a few pieces there that you know I always call them little threads we could pull on to start to explore. Pull on to start to explore. Um, you know, when you think about that kind of journey that you've just shared with me in terms of coming into the work, what's the piece that you'd like to explore the most? Because there's a few pieces, you know, there's, like the land occupation piece, there is the um, you know, the resistance, the research. You know there's a lot of little threads that we could begin to explore. When you think about it, what's the thing that kind of grabs you the most that you think maybe people aren't talking about? Or, you know, you find that you could speak the most to.
Speaker 1:Actually, I think there's something that I didn't mention that you know before I was really tattooing friends, I was tattooing people in this frontline space and I think I mean expert capacity was when I started doing it in my own community, and that was in 2021. A couple of years before that, I had gone back home to Whitehorse, which is not where I grew up. I grew up in southern Alberta. So it was one of the first trips as an adult where I was going kind of on my own to try and reconnect and I stayed with my auntie and was really trying to build a connection with the land there and the people that I had been out of relation with for a while. So the first trip back was before I started really tattooing and it was so difficult. I felt like I was really impatient to make those connections. I mean, I wanted to go hunting, I wanted to be out on the land. I didn't know how to like not die on the land.
Speaker 1:You know I didn't have the skills to do that. I kept coming up against that kind of resistance from people who were like you know, you haven't been here.
Speaker 1:You know you haven't been here and now you're like all impatient to go and like learn everything you can learn and I think that was coming from a good place.
Speaker 1:But it was really hard and I left there feeling fairly heartbroken, like I was just, like I tried to connect.
Speaker 1:It didn't work and when I came back it was after a whole bunch of really intense experiences at this land. Reoccupation it was after COVID had hit and I saw this opportunity for an art residency at my cultural center, kwanlanden Cultural Center and I was like I wonder if they would be into doing tattooing as a form of art. I mean, I was seeing beading and weaving and I was like you know, why not? Let's try it. So I applied and got it and I spent that summer tattooing community members and just had this like completely different experience of my territory and the people there who I felt were so welcoming and I was able to make those connections with people and it's just grown from there and I think for me the thing that changed is that I went into it thinking about service, that how can I be of service to people here, what can I offer them, and it was just a game changer. It changed everything about my relationship to people there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's a few interesting things there when I think about you know research, you know, you know, you know kind of I guess I don't know if exposes is the right word, but it uncovers, maybe an important principle of that patience, right, and I think I can also totally relate in respect to, you know, going into community trying to talk about tattooing and there being a bit of resistance. But when I came back a bit later and I had something to offer so I was giving instead of asking for something, like you said that relationship really changed and so I think that's really important to maybe highlight for those folks who are, you know, trying to reconnect to their communities. It it's, like you said, find ways of service, genuine service, of something that you can provide a value, so that you so that we aren't trying to extract in the same way that the colonial researchers come in to do that stuff, Right?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think that's a really uh powerful, uh, what would you say like testimony from your own experience, to like help others, to uh understand that, uh, it's about giving in those places as opposed to taking yeah, and I had already really incorporated that in my, uh, like land defense work I was really had already thought about, you know I'd spent years building relationships of trust and um, doing dishes and all of the like grunt work that is necessary to keep one of those spaces running, before I even thought about writing anything down. That, you know, was about that experience and I just I didn't apply it to my own people, which is silly but it's like yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It is a really important thing to just keep in mind that this is about um, it's about building a relationship, and you can't do that if you are selfish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time, yeah, and I guess, um, you know, I guess you can just relate that back as well to like just interpersonal relationships, right? Like if we haven't seen each other for, you know, 10 years, yeah, and we get back together. You know, with some people you're just solid and it doesn't matter, you can just pick up but if they're people that you know, uh, are.
Speaker 2:You've just had a peripheral relationship with. Um, you know, things have changed. Things have changed, people have changed, experiences have changed. So, yeah, it's important to have that warming up. I suppose that that again, just re-familiarizing ourselves not only with people but also community and what we can provide, you know, as uh, as our gifts right. Those are our gifts that we have been gifted, so finding opportunities to share them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that's a really good place to begin with, for you know this conversation because a lot of it you know not everybody that I speak to has done research in this type of way. So, yeah, it's good to hear that experience and also let people know that if you've been through that, it's time to go back and offer something instead of ask for something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it can be really discouraging, and I think it's about just shifting your perspective of it and shifting the frame and trying to go with uh yeah, with your hands open, like something to offer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Big time. Yeah, it's interesting those uh, I guess lessons that you know we always read about um, you know, um non-indigenous or non-community members having to learn, but sometimes we have to be reminded, as we go back into our own communities, for this work that we do in terms of bringing forward the knowledge that is essential for the coming generations. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I asked you a question before that, but I think it was good. That was a good place to go in terms of you know, starting that conversation around research. So let's maybe just shift in that direction in terms of you know, so you've completed your PhD, correct? And what was that about? What were you writing about and exploring in that?
Speaker 1:work. So I write about and this will be a book eventually that I'm working on. Right now I write about my experience of the land defense movement and my firsthand experience as somebody who had responsibilities in that space with the Wet'suwet'en people in BC, and it's what I call an activist autoethnography. So I'm writing from within my own experience and with the knowledge that the work that I was doing I didn't conceptualize as research until very late in the process.
Speaker 1:What I was doing was trying to support the political work of the people there and their self-determination and ability to access and live and be on their own territories, and the kind of after piece of it is that I'm trying to work through that in words and explain what that's been like and provide that perspective to other people. And so there was research involved and that research wasn't always directed towards an academic audience. It was directed towards, like, the political work we were doing together. So, yeah, that was the sort of main piece of of what I was doing there. And, uh, I'm now thinking more about how to bring other projects into being and how to sort of bring that frame without necessarily uh, jumping right back into a frontline space. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I guess that uh you naturally brings us to um you receiving intercom of black work coming to uh me to uh receive a back piece which I always forget about yeah. I remember what was it the one year at Tyend and Hagar, I was like, oh, oh, yeah, you have that, it's so. Yeah, sometimes it's crazy to think about that, but yeah, so uh, and as far as you're comfortable, just uh, share, uh, you know what was that experience about? What were you, um, you know, exploring in receiving that work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was a few things. I was coming it was like a year or two after I had left the frontline space that I was working in. It was after COVID, you know. We were like 2020 hit and it just felt like everything fell apart, like our political mobilization kind of ground to a halt, went through a series of really intense and destructive community disintegrations and I left the space and came to Toronto to start a new job and it just felt like a bunch of connections had kind of been severed and I was kind of reeling from that.
Speaker 1:I was reeling from, um, the loss of the community out there, um, and from my experience on on the front lines, which was like the experience of being in a position where there was the potential for lethal force you know, there were police with snipers and just trying to figure out where I went from there, like needing the connection, feeling like I needed protection, feeling like I needed some kind of ceremony, like I needed to go through some sort of transformation, because I couldn't be the person that I was when I was out there anymore. I had to like think of how else I was going to be in the world. So that's how I went. I sort of went into the. I had this you know sort of just flashed. What I need is a giant tattoo, and I was also considering having a child and was like I need uh to know that I can hold pain, um, and uh feel like I'm sort of more my whole self before I, before I go into that experience, yeah wow yeah, that's powerful in terms of like you know a few threads there.
Speaker 2:In terms of like you know a few threads there. In terms of, like you know, in the beginning, even just conceiving of the work as doing that work. You know when I say the work, you know just getting the tattoo, just having the tattoo going through it, you know, as a form of protection, transformation, all of those, things, and it's also interesting because it like really seriously highlights which a lot of people don't uh think about or talk about, like the uh impact that those spaces actually have on you you know, um, uh, what would you say?
Speaker 2:like police, military, all of that, in a lot of ways, are trained to be in those spaces and have those experiences, of course, from PTSD and all of that stuff. The way that you know that community struggles with their own mental health is evidence that you know if you do that repeatedly it has a cumulative impact. However, you know those folks who are on the front lines doing that work you know also has that similar impact because you haven't been trained to do that.
Speaker 2:You're there to protect the earth to protect the water, to protect the land, and I imagine a lot of people don't consider, like, what is that potential impact? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it's. I mean, it is the being faced with violence, it's the numbing as well. Like I realized after a while I wasn't reacting to physical threats. Yeah, like we had a bunch of racist people from the neighboring town sort of drive through the camp and shoot off rifles and fireworks and I was so calm and at the time I thought that was a good thing. I was like you know, I'm a leader here, I need to be the calm person and make sure everything's fine. But then I was, I was recognizing that I, I had no reaction to that threat.
Speaker 1:Um, and so there's something, there's something wrong that like I've lost some sort of self-preservation impulse here. Um, and I I think that it was part of the uh, the after effect that just took way longer to untangle um is that I was, I was also putting myself in situations and volunteering myself for situations that could have resulted in serious harm or death, you know, or incarceration. And I was doing that, I think, out of a place of love and, you know, loving sacrifice for the land and for the people there. But I had stopped considering my own self and future and family, and that was a problem. I had to figure out how to come back into that and value my own self and contribution more than just putting myself on the line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess it's a good lesson to think about some of our teachings in terms of balance. Right, yes, of course. You know I always talk about it in terms of a now can we, which I learned from Dr Jeanette Armstrong and child Richard Armstrong and Bill Cohen. You know all seal knowledge keepers and you know it's really a teaching about balance. You know that nested system of like, in the very middle of concentric circles, there's ourselves, then there's our family, then there's our community and then there's the earth and all that is. And a lot of times you know, people get stuck in that selfishness and they only think about the middle circle, but then you know this is a prime example of being on that you know third and fourth concentric circles, of being concerned with the earth and all that is, and then community and family and forgetting about yourself.
Speaker 2:And so it's about how do we found the balance between all of those things, because they're all equally important and not saying that I have an answer, but just bringing it forward for people to consider and to think about are continuing those struggles who are still in those spaces and still active in the protection and defense of our land and water systems and our unceded territory. So just, you know, putting that out there, lifting those folks up, sending love and prayers to that work that's happening, because I think sometimes, you know, with everything else that's going on in our lives, politically, globally, we forget about those struggles that are still currently present, people who are actually going through court cases, people who are being incarcerated and charged, and you know having those lasting effects. So I think it's important that you know those lasting effects.
Speaker 2:So I think it's important that you know those folks who are listening, who maybe have forgotten about these things because they're not on their algorithm anymore, because they're not in their peer view, that you remember, those people send prayers, send texts, send messages, send money for those people who are going through, you know, court battles et cetera, who need that support. So yeah, just something to think about for those folks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's such a huge effort. It requires so many people to come together in a collective way to push back against these structures that are so well organized to destroy us. And yeah, people need support in in the midst of it. They need support after after, like, I think that there's um, I mean, we all sort of position ourselves as like the strong warriors when we're in the middle of it and and lots of ways we are, yeah, and I think, um, one of the things I realized is that when I thought I was at the center of my strength, I'm like at the peak of it, I'm really in sort of like holding the strongest self I can be. If that's happening in a space that's so under siege. So under siege that's so tightly surveilled, um, that's so, uh, responsive to state violence, like that's not the center of myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I can't, and I that can't be the strongest point yeah you know, it's like I need to find who I am not in relation to this, like violent force, but, like you know, outside of it, and that journey to get there is really difficult because I think a lot of us were just, you know, we were defining ourselves in opposition and, yeah, for anyone who's in the midst of that and has gone through it and is dealing with like it's, it's a tough thing because it's about it's about your own sense of self and your relationship to community, and also that it's hard to lose the feeling that you are under attack. Um, and that's like it becomes very difficult to just like, just be yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Feel some peace after that. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Feel some peace after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, yeah, no, I think you know I appreciate you sharing those thoughts, those words, those feelings and those experiences, because you know people don't always talk about them in terms of, you know, for a good reason in some ways.
Speaker 2:You know, for a good reason in some ways. But also important for people to think about. Number one, as you're going out there, you know, prepare yourself for those things that maybe you hadn't thought about. But then also those finding ways to again, with our gifts, support those folks that are coming out of those spaces or continuing to live in that space. Right, like, how do we find ways to support and care for that part of the experience? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting how you know our work as ancestral skin markers and tattoo artists and tattoo practitioners, you know, relates to all of these different things, and I think there's, you know, something really interesting about you know, this practice and because so much of it has to do with our identity so much of it has to do with who we are as Indigenous people, and I think it was, you know, the thing that you said.
Speaker 2:Actually, that really, you know tweaked in my mind and my heart was, you know, I was defining myself in opposition to this destructive machine, right? Yeah, that's really interesting to think about. And then how you then now are trying to, you know, find that sense of self, that sense of strength, that sense of that inner power in relation to community, in relation to other ways of being, and I think, yeah, maybe that's like the key to then have the strength when you go into those spaces.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think it's. It's about resisting the urge to be like an, like a separated individual as well, like I think that that can be destructive in these spaces of organizing. That's where ego comes into play. It's where people feel like they've got to be in the spotlight and I mean I fell into that. Everyone does yeah, yeah, big time. And I think that that sort of individualism I mean there's just the way that we approach tattooing and skin marking it's like these are not markings that make us like separate, unique people.
Speaker 1:They're markings that mark us as part of a collective as people in relation, and so, for me, it's always bringing it back to that, and it's a way of reminding myself daily that this is about myself in relation and not myself as a unique individual that needs to, like you know, put myself out there in that way yeah, yeah, no, I think, uh, especially with those markings that are so visible right in terms of, like you look in the mirror and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah it's not just about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, um, you know, and I think, uh, part of it also too, is, you know, you know, just to mention it, just that reality of the surveillance of it as well as important because that creates a certain feeling as well, of like insecurity, all of that stuff that you know.
Speaker 2:We need to just kind of turn on its head and just, uh, you know again go back into community, go back into self, and try to work through some of that insecurity that comes from. You know that psychological threat, I suppose yeah, yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 1:It gets into your brain. You start to like feel like you're doing something wrong just by being in these spaces. And it's not. I mean I think you know all of us would. We have strong politics, we're able to like assert you know this is, you know it's not, they're fucked up, we're not fucked up. You know, like we're not doing anything wrong.
Speaker 1:We're not criminals yeah, but it seeps in that feeling that somehow your being in the world is not right, yeah, or at least that there might be consequences for it in terms of like state violence or criminalization. And, yeah, it's hard to shake loose of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah criminalization and uh, yeah, it's hard to shake loose of that. Yeah, and I think that there is something that is powerful about, um, skin markings that helps us kind of come back in to a different way of framing our being in relation to the land, especially, um, yeah, yeah, big time yeah, no, it's an interesting conversation.
Speaker 2:I think, some things that I would like to explore more you know, in the podcast and in conversation with you know folks who you know this is their specialty, right Like in terms of their surveillance, in terms of some of the bills and things that have gone through that give that surveillance and that, uh, that surveillance apparatus of you know the state, um, you know. So I think, yeah, there's some interesting things there that need to be explored, uh, with folks that have way more knowledge about it than I do because I just have these little like what about that like that's, you know, but for me it's also then.
Speaker 2:But it comes back to, uh, my experience. You know, these observations, these things, these theories, these ideas come through conversations with people that I work with, and so that's why I always say like it's important for us, as ancestral skin markers and, you know, uh, traditional tattoo practitioners, to start to think about, speak about, write about our own experiences that come from our work with our communities. Right, because you know every book you read, every documentary you watch about our ancestral tattooing, it's always fetishization and exotification of all those things instead of actually really trying to dig into you know what is this work that we're doing you know.
Speaker 2:So I guess another thread that we could pull on. You know we could continue exploring that if you want, but I think we can move on to the work that you're starting to do in community now in terms of gathering and marking and all of those things. Yeah, so just give you opportunity to speak about some of the plans and the things that you're beginning to work towards. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazzas, your host from the Transformative Marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1:So when I started doing work with my community, I started it started as an art residency, so I was really thinking about it as as an artistic practice. I was really thinking about it as an artistic practice and after a few years of doing that I was approached by a staff member at our health center who asked me if I would be interested in working with them to develop it as part of their health and wellness practice. You know they've got people who come in and do acupuncture and massage and have workshops on healthy eating and all sorts of things. You know they're responding to the opioid crisis in Whitehorse and have all sorts of ways of sort of holding people's health and wellness. And so this past summer we started a program where I came in and tattooed community members with the goal, the sort of express goal of promoting health and wellness and healing.
Speaker 1:And so I had people fill out a form and then we had a sort of extended consultation where we talked more about what it was. They were trying to mark, what kind of healing journey they were on, if they were going through some sort of life transition that they wanted to talk through, and I left it open to them. Some Some people said more, some people said less, but and then and then we marked it and I think that starting to make that work more explicit is is doing some really cool work in in community. It's people are starting to think about it more in those terms, not only as something that can bring them back into a sense of belonging to the collective and belonging to their culture, that can also mark their connection to the land, but also provide some grounding marks and ways where they can sort of connect back into their own goals around their own health and healing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's also. I would say it's like. My observation is it's an interesting shift because I can see it happening in other communities, other practitioners that are doing similar things in connection to community, in terms of like working with health centers, community cultural centers, etc. And I think it's an interesting shift because, uh, it's a shift actually more towards the work that our ancestors used our marks for, because, you know, uh, for the for the longest time, when I talked about tattoo medicine, I talked about, um, this work and its healing.
Speaker 2:It was, uh, initially about finding reconnection about identity, which and I found it really interesting an observation is that it doesn't matter who you are as an indigenous person and your indigenous experience, whether you grew up in connection, whether you grew up on the reserve, off the reserve, urban, etc. Every Indigenous person that I work with talks about that healing and reconnection right. So it's really an interesting observation that says to those people who are struggling with who they are is that you're not alone in that um, and to find comfort in the fact that we are all moving in that direction. But I also now find it interesting because, you know, yes, we marked for identity, but that was something different than what we're doing in the contemporary space, because our ancestors didn't have to worry about who they were as an intercutman person yeah or a.
Speaker 2:Tlingit person or a Cree person. That's just what you were. You know that was the uh. You know the reality of your experiences. That's just who you were and there was no question about it.
Speaker 2:But because of the fractures of the Indian act, the fractures of enfranchisement, the fractures of war, violence, all of those things you know. Urbanization, I think you know, even though sometimes there was forced removal of people. But the economic fracture of our communities, because there isn't jobs there, there isn't ways to continue to live, because you can't always live a subsistence lifestyle in all of the places that we inhabit, and so you have to move away right and so that, and then that happens what three generations ago? Then that disconnection is still there. So all of those things are different.
Speaker 2:And when I say that, you know, our tattooing is different today because it's different than our ancestors lives were. But I think this is an interesting twist when saying all that, to say like this is an interesting twist in terms of the way that our ancestors marked. You know, they marked for longevity and relationships. They marked for not only to, as ornamentation or beautification, but also like as prayer, as a a wish for something, whether that was long life, whether that was a partner, whether that was that they could shoot their bow really well and bring some, bring home the, so to speak, you know, whatever that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's really interesting, this new shift, and I think that it's really a deepening of the way that we are using our marking and I would say like are marking and I would say like really getting back to the heart of what it is for us as community members to mark ourselves ancestrally, so that it's becoming more of like part of our communities, as opposed to on the periphery of the experience of our communities yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is it.
Speaker 1:It's it's much more about our collective healing and it's it's about finding ways to. I mean, we are in a different place than our ancestors. We're dealing with different sickness, yeah, Um, and marking those, a path to healing through these illnesses is going to look a lot different. But I think I've seen a lot of people kind of take it. I mean, it hasn't been hard to push it as medicine. I think people really understand that at a deep level, that something about marking that on the skin, something about going through a ritual that's painful, about going through a ritual that's painful and surfacing some of that pain in order to really mark the transition to something else and giving space for healing. I think people are on board with that and are using it to mark all sorts of things A transition to sobriety, marking loss, working through grief, but also so that they can move through it and not kind of like hold it in other places in their body. Now it's sort of surfaced in a way that they don't have to hold it somewhere else. So, yeah, I think that there's like really interesting ways that this can be used as medicine and I think the sort of most obvious thing that came when I was talking to people about, especially about facial markings for women, is that there were a lot of our neighbors in the north marked their chins for childbirth. This was part of a marking to indicate your new responsibility and role as a mother and something about that.
Speaker 1:I'm like what a huge life transition to mark, right. It's about this sort of closeness, proximity to birth, like closeness, proximity to birth and you know the thin line between life and death and marking someone coming through that and taking on a responsibility. And so, yeah, now we talk to people about sort of what responsibilities they want to wear and to let other people know that they're carrying. But then also, what are these transitions, these passages that sometimes go unmarked and uncommented? Now it's just something they're like oh, everyone does that, but it can be so huge for people and we're not doing the same kinds of ceremonies that our ancestors did. We're not holding up these massive transitions in community in the way that we once did, and so we need more spaces to do that, and I think this is like a very small way of kind of starting to carve out a space for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it also brings forward that. You know, it's just starting that conversation right, and so it helps people to begin to think about the importance of it, and so it's not necessarily that it has to always be about marking. It's really about how do we assist people, how do we help people with transition, and that could be simply with a certain type of celebration that could simply be with, you know, face painting. You know we used to paint our face and body every day. Some people would change their face paint every single day. It'd be a different mark every day, and some people would have the same mark or a certain mark of painting, right, and so, like, how do we then, like, bring these embodied art forms back to life in the present day? So it could be that maybe it's not about tattooing, it could be about face painting, it could be about body marking, it could be about a certain piece of clothing, you know, it could be about some other way of embodying that transition.
Speaker 2:But I think it's important just to start that conversation I think that's what you're really talking about, uh, when you say that, because it's like you know, uh, for me, this is not just about the revival or the resurgence of our tattooing. It's about the revival and resurgence and the uh empowering of our people in all particular ways, whatever way that could be right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's interesting and I would say, like, when I think about it, it's also um, the way that you're beginning to work with it in that way also, uh, you know, echoes back to what you said in terms of the um, making it about us, as opposed to us, in opposition to them, right, and so this way of like marking is making a really conscious transition from that where this is just about us and, uh, what we need for our own individual lives, as opposed to like this, is, uh, to get in the face yeah suppose of you know some of those other.
Speaker 1:Uh, racism, you know some of those other structures, yeah, and so I mean, I think the conversation that we have with people who are thinking about, you know, wearing these kinds of marks is so important, like having that space to just say it's a space of witnessing, to say like I see you and I'm hearing what you're going through, um, and it's, it's not, it doesn't all just have to be kept under the surface yeah and I think so many people are holding so much um, and maybe we don't have ways of talking through it in the way that we used to or holding people up who are doing something hard, um, something like saying, like staying sober, you know like and um need different kinds of support that aren't just aren't medicalized supports, aren't just um sort of crisis team supports are like seeing the internal work that people are doing to to stay there and um yeah, so I think the conversation is important and also saying this is this is worth marking yeah this is like something, that is like something to
Speaker 2:celebrate, to celebrate, yeah, yeah and I think you know it also makes me, uh, reflect a little bit as well, that, you know, uh, it reminds me of how like starved, as a society and as individuals in some cases, to like just have but have somebody to witness, have somebody there just to listen, to hear, and maybe not even just to hear just to be in the presence of someone who is caring for you right, I think you know that's a reflection that I have from the experience as an ancestral skin marker is just holding space for someone.
Speaker 2:You know, whether you're talking or not, you know just being there caring for that person.
Speaker 1:You know, um, it's interesting too, because you're like you are hurting them, but you're also holding space and creating safety for them to move through whatever that passage and that transition is yeah, I mean, and for for me, having gone through that with the, the black work project, like, um, I mean definitely painful, definitely like intensely painful, but the point at which it was over and there was like I realized I could just let my body heal, like that was it I can support myself in, in doing that and, um, I, I didn't expect it to hit me so hard, that that was it I can support myself in doing that, and I didn't expect it to hit me so hard that this was like something that needed to go through that material experience in my body in order for me to get there mentally, like I was ready to heal but my brain wasn't letting me do it.
Speaker 1:I couldn't work with my brain in like getting to that point. I needed the experience, the painful experience, to hit the transition and to really feel like, yeah, I am ready to move on you say intuitions of like the uh.
Speaker 2:You know, some of those experiences that you were working through were not stored in your brain, they were actually stored in your body right, yeah, um those barriers, those uh things, those ways that you had to change your nervous system to be, in those spaces. Some of those things were actually bodily experiences. Definitely. And barriers, shields, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there's something about a painful kind of ceremony that can get people and getting into the body, and really sort of feeling that it can get to places that our words can't reach, and I felt that also.
Speaker 1:I mean, I had the sort of bodily experience, the stuff around my nervous system, yes, and also forms of grief that I didn't know how to work through. I had friendships that had ended. How do you grieve a friendship for somebody who's still alive? You're just not in relation with them anymore. We don't have spaces where we really get to honor that, to honor what we had, and then also move on from it. I felt like it was just sitting inside me and I had no way to work through it, and so I needed some way of surfacing that and, um, so I think that there is something powerful that can happen when we bring that into our bodies. Um, that it's it's hard to do in words because I also cause we don't have the forms of ceremony that we would need to like actually mark those things, um, as as important as they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting conversation. I guess, uh, what has been, um, that experience of like bringing, uh, you know, starting to conceive of some of the work and the um, the marking that you're going to be doing, you know, as research, and what are some of those things? What are some of those research questions that you have, you know, uh, from the that are informed by the experiences that you've had?
Speaker 3:Um, and, yeah, just maybe let's explore that, of course, you don't have to put it all out there, so somebody takes it and runs with it, but yeah, Um, yeah, just whatever you'd like to share I mean some of it.
Speaker 1:If someone else takes it too, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:We can just keep building on it um yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in trying to build a essentially a base of evidence to support this idea that these, um, these markings and this practice can be linked to a healing practice, and I think um part of that research is to like look at our ancestral practices and um the ways in which that functioned as medicine. Um, a lot of people talk about tattoo medicine, um, but I I really want to make that a more concrete link and to to talk to people about what their experience has been um both practitioners and people who've received markings, to, yeah, put it in that frame and to really kind of like dig into what that experience is and how it shifts people's sense of themselves and their mental health or physical health too. I mean, there's evidence that this had physical implications, you know, and you look at acupuncture and other, you know, tattooed marks that are along acupuncture points, and I mean all of that you know says that there's something here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting too, and I guess for me as a I don't want to use that term indigenous scholar or you know, just because I hate that word scholar, but like as a uh, you know, as a person working through some of this stuff, um, you know, I just hold you up in the work that you're doing because the reality is is that it actually comes from your experience, right, like so many people are like peering over what's happening over there, you know, oh, we're going to travel to Samoa and do this work, or we're going to travel here and do this work, where it's like this is actually from. This is part of your indigenous experience.
Speaker 2:You know, these questions, these ideas, these things, these intuitions, uh, actually are uh, bubbling up from your own experience and so yeah, I just lift you up in that and you know really, uh, upholding and walking in those really indigenous research methodologies you know, to use that kind of academic term phraseology that maybe not everybody's familiar with but, yeah, just walking in those ways of going like, and I always talk to people when I talk about research or when I talk about you know, people reach out to me and they'll say, hey, I'm interested in talking about this. And you know, a lot of times I'll say it, I'm interested in talking about this. And you know, a lot of times I'll say it bluntly, sometimes I'll word it a little bit different, but it's like the same question why do you give a shit about this? Like, why are you interested? What's your curiosity? You have no connection to this. Right, like, you're from Europe and you want to know all about all this stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know from my own experience, a lot of times those relationships don't actually end up being beneficial for us. It's actually ends up being more extractive and then those things are turned and created, uh, positioned, as if they were their own. So it's really interesting to have that observation in terms of like giving to people who then take them and extract it and then, you know, repackage it as their own, uh, medicine person practice. Yeah, it's uh, yeah, interesting observation that I've had in the last year or so, but, um, yeah, so I just lift you up and what you are doing, because this is actually coming from who you are as an individual, as someone who was doing that work and actually had your own experience in that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think part of it comes from I want to say that it's a failure, but like a good one of going through academia and realizing that, like the way that people were conceptualizing research as like there's a phenomena that exists out in the world and, um, you go and you collect data on it, even if that's like you know qualitative data, you're doing ethnography, whatever it is and then you bring it back and analyze it and then you write it up. It's, it's a line, it's like a. It starts with the data somewhere else and then you just bring it in, um, when it's extractive, you know you're extracting it from that space. Um, I couldn't do it, you know, I was like. I was like I'm not actually I can't think of interesting questions about stuff that I'm not involved in. Maybe I'm just self-absorbed, but like I was, like I couldn't, couldn't think of like all the questions that people are coming to you.
Speaker 1:I'm like how do they come up with those questions if they're not in it already? You know, how do they make that feel meaningful? And I just realized that I don't think in that like sort of linear way about research. I think it has to be a circle, yeah, and for me it's about sort of getting into the experience, first, building the relationships, and then it's like what you know, what's here that's worth continuing to deepen our understanding of, yeah, and then we sort of see how it can cycle back into theurgence. People feel more empowered to take up these practices, to use them in ways that are benefiting the health of our communities and people's sense of belonging, and I think that if we can support that, then it just feeds right back in.
Speaker 1:You know, it's not something that is even possible to extract, because you know what can someone from the outside of that offer? I mean some resources maybe. But like you know, that's it. You know you're not going to be involved in it because this is something that people are asking for from within the community. You know that we can do for each other and it's not. You sort of build some protection against that kind of extraction by like kind of keeping that within the circle. But it always amazes me how people can sort of take this and make it an extractive model, because I'm just like it's also so empty.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean the fact that they're the same fucking questions every time. Yeah, yeah, representative, totally, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, totally Right. Like you know, uh, I've been through enough interviews that it's the same question over and over and over and it's like come on, like let's talk about something interesting. You know, yes, those things are interesting for people who are appearing in, but it's so repetitive that like's just not interesting anymore right yeah what's the question?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah um, yeah, I mean even. Uh, I've had this conversation with nahan a number of times where it's like he's like, really, you're gonna ask me that question, so he's like I'm just gonna go off about land back and fuck this and the fuck that yeah yeah, um. So yeah, if you get some of those responses from some of us coming forward, you're not asking interesting questions anymore, because those questions have been answered they've been asked and answered multiple times.
Speaker 2:Um, of course, sometimes the question of like who are you like? That's relevant, of course. But above and beyond that, you could read how long I've been tattooing. You can read how long you know what that journey has been for me. So, like, if you're coming, you know, make the questions interesting at least yeah, and like tell me what your angle is, because so many people are coming and it's like they're just not sharing, kind of where that angle that they're coming from is, and I just don't find that interesting anymore yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I mean, so much of it is just, it's just so surface level. I mean, the racism is so thinly veiled that they're just like you, look interesting you know, like explain why you did that to your face. You know, like it's just like so. It's so thinly veiled that it's just like there's nothing. There's nothing of interest there, and I mean they wouldn't know what to do with our actual experiences, which have this depth. Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's nothing in their hands anyway, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I really appreciate that and so, yeah, again, I just hold you up for, uh, you know, creating these uh research questions, these research projects, um, from your own experience, and I would say, like, even, uh, the reality of, like, just going into community to do the work is research, right, and so it doesn't have to be, uh, you know, a you doesn't have to come out of it more than just going to do the work.
Speaker 2:When I think about that and people talk about reconciliation, it's like, well, how much money was spent in the destruction of our cultures and communities, of our cultures and communities? Well, for me, reconciliation is spending, you know. One part of it is spending as much money or more to reverse those effects, right, and so you think about how long those residential schools were enforced. You think about how long they've been paying indian agents to police our people, yeah, right, you think of how much money was spent in not only those schools but the police officers who went to collect the children, right, like how much gas was used to send the trucks and the buses, like. Those are all calculations that have to go into if you're really truthful about wanting reconciliation it's about helping to repair the shit that you've done.
Speaker 2:And that means saying, yeah, we fucking did that. We're assholes and we're going to change it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, and it means that I expect people to have endless patience for us as we work through this stuff, because it takes a really long time to claw it back from that level of erasure, and it's why we meet resistance in community, right, it's because people went to residential schools and these practices were taken from us and replaced with all sorts of destructive ones, and so it's like, yeah, it takes a long time to sort of work it back to a place where people can feel pride in these connections again, and it's not our fault. So if it takes a while for us to get moving on this kind of stuff and you're not getting the kinds of results that you might expect like of course you're not, you know, it's like you need to be much more patient and give us way more money in order to get to that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time and I would say you know some of that. It's also interesting too to uh comment that some of that resistance is also like uh, you know moving through the shame of not having your language moving through, the shame of not having the knowledge about what those marks mean.
Speaker 2:Right, um, and so for me, it's always. Now. It's like well, let's make sure we are, uh, ensuring that the marks are what we need them to be today, right, um, instead of always having to look back, I think, uh, you know, let's honor the principles and the reasons we tattooed and the ways that we tattooed in the present, but make sure that we transform them to the ways that we tattooed in the present, but make sure that we transform them to the things that we need them to be for us today to move through those things and also to ensure that you know we work in a way that allows people the uh, the gift of not knowing, right, because there is so much shame that's put on people.
Speaker 2:Oh, you didn't, this didn't happen to you, that didn't happen, you don't know this, you know you're not this person. All of that is like that shame-based fucking catholic bullshit, right? So for me it's like no, we need to have grace for each other. We need to have, like you said, patience maybe is a different word, uh, and we just have to allow people part of that.
Speaker 2:Healing is, like you know, honoring the fact that we don't know, and that there's a reason for it, and then I would say, like you said, like it's not our fault, and I think that's like you know I don't know how many conversations I've had for people and they're sharing with me and the thing that they actually just need to hear is, exactly, that is like it's just not your fault, right, and people are just like whoa Right. And so, yeah, just having those things kind of forefront as well as, uh, actually important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because this isn't a practice that's just for the most connected of us. You know, it's not for the people who are doing the best. Yeah, you know who are. You know, retain some of like all of that connection to community because everyone's been torn from it in some way and it's been really profound for me to sit with people who, you know, feel deeply disconnected. Yeah, you know, who are just sort of like working regular jobs and maybe have like a bunch of tattoos that like they're like it doesn't mean shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like whatever, and then to see them be able to claim a marking, that and have that kind of meaning associated with it, even if they haven't, like, done a bunch of research and, like you know, they don't have to of research, they don't have to, they don't have to, and we can remake it, like I like to say, in the spirit of our ancestors, without having to know what every marking meant to them, and I think that that's been important and surprising to me. Actually, I see lots of people come in and just be like you know, I don't know anything about this, but I really feel like I want to be a part of it, you know, and then they get to go back to other people also who maybe have some skepticism around it, and share that. I think that that can be really powerful. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Share that, and I think that that that can be really powerful. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Um, you know, um, we've touched on a lot of uh interesting and uh powerful topics, you know. Is there any things that you can think about that you'd like to explore? Hmm.
Speaker 2:I know that's a hard spot. It's always funny Cause, like I know, I was interviewing someone yesterday and she was like she had. Oh, I wrote down all these questions and like I had, all these things that I wanted to talk about, and then, when I asked them, they were like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, I think, if we've gone through so much um, I just feel like my mind went blank. Yeah, I know right.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's, you know, a really good conversation because you know my family, initially to position me in a way to have the privilege of going to the university of uh, putting me in a position where, um, I could feel secure in myself in some sense.
Speaker 2:And then also, uh, you know, lifting up community. You know, lower Nicolet Indian band for, uh, paying for some of my education. You know, um, lifting up community. You know, lower Nicolet Indian Band for paying for some of my education. You know, yeah, I think it's important to highlight, you know, we haven't got here on our own and I don't. You know, this conversation is unique and different because we both had those gifts and those privileges to go where we've gone, to ask the questions and to articulate things in the way that we do, and I think it's important to highlight and lift up those people in our communities who have believed in us and who have shared and who have, you know, provided those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I think that one of the gifts that my community has given me I mean, there's nothing, there's no practice without community I would not be able to do this, going back into community and having these conversations and being able to reconnect in this way I would not be doing that if I hadn't entered into this work Not in the same way, at least.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be able to sit with people like like yes, I have the training, yes, I'm like in these academic spaces, um, to be able to sit with people who don't give a shit about any of that is such a gift to me. To just talk about, like regular people stuff, um, because they, yeah, it doesn't. The value of that is not what we're sharing in that moment. It's about this practice that we're building together and the collaboration that we're building together. Come in to to set aside some of that, some of, yeah, some of that just absolute bullshit we have to take on as part of academia. Um, to set it aside and to realize that, like, I needed to do that for myself as well. To set that aside and to, um, to be able to connect with people in a more meaningful way yeah in a more grounded way.
Speaker 1:um, some of that just needs to be left at the door, and people not only allowed me to do that, but demanded it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting too because it reminds me of one of the participants and then instructors of Earthline, you know, told me about their experience of going to this academic conference and I think it was an indigenous art conference and like I can't remember exactly what it was about.
Speaker 2:But, like, you know everybody giving these presentations and then you know one of the like really prestigious speakers or academics comes to them and you know, um, just in, who they are. They were just like, yeah, this is all cool, but, like, who back home gives a shit about what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, right, like, all of this is interesting and cool and like, but how you know, the real question is how is this impacting the people back home? Right, how is this impacting our community, or is it just serving us? And so that's the one thing I always have to re-check myself, come back and go like how am I, how is this actually contributing?
Speaker 2:um, not only to my life, but the life and the health of my community, right, um, so yeah, it's just an interesting observation of like yes, you know, some of the things we find interesting and questions we have you know are interesting.
Speaker 1:But how is that helping our community that we need to be doing, because these academic spaces call us to be ladder climbers, to really sort of push our own projects and egos and be the smartest person in the room, and it's a really toxic space for all of those reasons.
Speaker 1:And so I think for me, it it's about minimizing minimizing the space where I am having to have those kinds of conversations that are that are not don't connect back to any sort of tangible benefit for the people I'm working with, and knowing that we're doing all of this in a context of, like you know, catastrophic climate change, like environmental decline, like we don't have the time to be messing around with like our own sort of little whims and ideas. Like this has to be in service of something bigger, because we are facing some serious threats, and so, um, I mean, we need strong communities to deal with this, and I think that there's lots of ways to to support that. Um, and this is one of them communities to deal with this, and I think that there's lots of ways to to support that. Yeah, um, and this is one of them. Yeah, and if, if we're in on these academic spaces not doing that work, then we're, we're, you know, uh wasting yeah wasting the resources and the gifts that we've been given by our communities to get to this place yeah
Speaker 2:big time. Yeah, no, I think that's really important and a good reframe and like a call to Indigenous academics and people who are away from community to always re-question like how am I giving back and how am I lifting up those places? Because I think I really do, uh, think, uh I can't remember who said it but, um, maybe it was in a documentary or a book that I was reading, but they were talking about how, like, the kind of forced urbanization due to the economic uh situation in many communities is like another form of like uh, what we say like enfranchisement right like you're almost forced to not be part of your community because, because you're living in the system that you are, this capitalist system, you have to move away and
Speaker 2:so then that actually extracts you from community, that extracts your input, that takes away all of those brains. You know that brain drain from community. And so for me it's like a constant thinking of like how do I and I'm not always good at it, you know, ego gets in the way, of course All of that stuff, all of that humanness, um, but like, yeah, thinking, oh, how does this then support and give back and, uh, lift up, um, you know, and I think that's always ever present for me because I don't live in my community.
Speaker 2:I don't live in my, even my own territory, or even close to it. You know, if I had to walk, there and take me a hell of a long time but, yeah, uh, just always those thoughts to reframe and rethink, and a call to indigenous academics and thought leaders to um force themselves to consider how are we lifting up those people back home?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, especially because in Canada and in Canadian academia the sort of reconciliation politics tokenizes people and I think some people are willing to accept that because it affords them more prestige, a special position. They get to be special and unique and, in some cases, lifts them to a place that they might not have gotten to otherwise.
Speaker 1:I think it's really seductive and really damaging to see ourselves and to put ourselves yeah to a system that is not equitable. That is like not producing, you know, good benefits for our communities and so I mean you know talking about again just being in opposition to.
Speaker 1:I'm always in opposition to that system right, and I have to remember that, like these are not my friends and they might seem like they're trying to do things that are good for me, good for my career, and that might be true, but what's the sacrifice? What am I giving up if I follow that path? And I think it's really hard to step off the path because they're trying to pull us in. Have a seat at the table, we have a space for you, but the whole system is so broken that I think we can't lose sight of the fact that these spaces weren't built for us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so we need to break them down in order to like, have them be worthwhile, and we need to take all the resources we can get and redistribute them in ways that are going to be beneficial. Otherwise, we'll benefit ourselves and no one else. And um, that's not, that's not what we're called to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Um yeah, now that I've given you some time to think, is there anything you can think of that you'd like to explore a little bit, or any questions or ideas that uh you've found, uh that maybe we haven't covered enough?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think about, because I get this question about people who are not Indigenous but are wanting to support this kind of work or who are wanting to engage with us as artists, about how you conceptualize that as well and, um, partially because I think sometimes we can be really insular in the way that we are sharing what we're doing, partially because people have been. You know, jacket, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, they steal, they steal shit, Um.
Speaker 1:So I think it's like a caution that's, you know, earned, but, but I still, I mean, it's one of the things that I'm still kind of struggling with is like how I, yeah, how I think about that, how I sort of work that into my own practice and I have firm boundaries around things that are cultural property, of course, you know there's still like a sort of greater question about how we do work with people who have come to it with good intention but are not, you know, not from our communities or not engaged in our communities in the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I think about that, my answer to that question is actually inficom of.
Speaker 2:Black work, right, right, because when I think about our ancestral skin marking, it was reserved to very specific places, and also like size is part of that, part of that is also like how those designs were represented, um, so for me it's like starting to think about how can I reserve certain parts of our ancestral practices just for our people, and so when I think of that is like very ancestral placements, face being paramount. You know, I'm not tattooing anyone's face with, like uh, those uh designs or those symbols or those motifs that were used as tattoo patterns. And then, you know, in other places as well. You know, like the forearms, I'm not going to be sharing some of those design symbols and motifs that we know our ancestors use as um tattoo designs. And so I've looked into some of our uh visual material culture that, um, you know, wasn't ancestrally used, um, so, basketry patterns other patterns that, um, you know, are still distinctively, distinctively, our visual language, but we're not necessarily associated with our ancestral practice.
Speaker 2:And so you know, and of course that has been a journey, because I have marked people with our ancestral, uh, skin markings, you know those things that are actually part of our tradition, uh, from the past, and it was actually those experiences that informed the change, because I'm like you know, you're excited in the beginning and you're just like I gotta do this. And then you know, you do it a couple times like I've marked people in spain and I'm just like, hmm, something just doesn't feel right something doesn't.
Speaker 2:You know, uh, even though that person's happy with that mark, you know, uh, I did it, you know, I had the experience of it, but there's just something that like, just didn't feel right, and so you know part of that lesson and that learning is like, uh, listening to those intuitions, listening to those feelings because that is a form of embodied knowledge right, uh, the ancestors and your body and your dna is going like, maybe we shouldn't have done that right, and so it's like, ah, so, sitting with that and being able to go, okay, I kind of understand what was going on there. And so then, finding ways and our own practices to do that, and so that's why I would say, like intercom with black work is my answer to that question, because our designs weren't that big. So part of it is scale right, our, because we were using thorns and we were using bone.
Speaker 2:Those design symbols and motifs are really small yeah right, and so it was actually partly the um, the material, the tool, the technology. Uh, limited us time, all of that, and so for me it's like let's keep those smaller, more ancestrally connected design symbols and motifs for that purpose, yeah, and then blow up. You know, yeah, maybe we're going to use that sun symbol, but we're going to blow it up yeah we're going to make it huge. So when you look at it, it may be recognizable as implicat mocha interior salish, but it's not going to be in the same vein as what we ancestrally did.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of my way of looking at that, because I think it's important for us to have the freedom, as practitioners, as artists, to use our visual language Because it enlivens our culture, because that visual language is just as important as our oral language. Because it enlivens us. You know, you're walking down the street and you see it in a mural right and you're like oh that's from home right it reconnects you, and so those things are just as important. So how do we find ways to navigate that?
Speaker 2:my answer isn't necessarily everyone's answer, but that's how I've been able to navigate it because of my own experience, and then I also, when I talk to people, I'm like you know, these are my understanding of what these design symbols and motifs are. And, um, now you have the responsibility to take those and talk about us. Right, all these are intercom or interior salish symbols. Yeah, right, and so that then makes us visible in the larger world as well yeah yeah that's a great answer you know, and again, part of that is just ourselves, again the grace to learn.
Speaker 2:And so, yes, at one time I was like, ah shit, I shouldn't have done that. But, then also going okay, maybe it wasn't the appropriate action, but the way that I changed that is by learning from it. Yeah, right, so yeah, I appreciate that question. I haven't been able to maybe articulate it in that way before, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think about it.
Speaker 1:Um, we, I mean, we've talked a bit about this, about, uh, the design and um, and for me, like Northwest coast form line and trying to get a form line, um, which is I may not have done a little tiny bit about it, but I haven't done large designs for the most part, um, because I haven't been trained and I feel like for us it's such, for us it's such, there's such a genealogy of mentorship that comes with that art form and um, I, you know, someday I'll work with somebody and sort of tap into that um, but until I've put that work and I don't feel comfortable, yeah, um, even you know, with my own people, yeah, uh, tattooing it in any kind of like sort of bigger way, um, and even I had the experience where I kind of was talking with somebody and I put together a design and then she took it to her mentor, who she'd studied with, and he was like no, it's all wrong.
Speaker 1:And I was like, well, we're not doing it. Then you know, like I don't know what principles of form line I've broken. But you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like all all right. I got told I haven't put the work in.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah and then I think also too, is like having the humbleness to go all right yeah, I get it yeah for sure. Um, yeah, I think this has been a great conversation. Just one final opportunity, just to share any final thoughts as we start to move towards the end of this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I just want to.
Speaker 1:I mean, I want to thank you and really hold up the work that you've done and in connecting people especially and helping to, I think, like empower us to pick up this work in our own communities, because it can be really scary to get started and because there's so much we don't know, because sitting with that, that lack of knowledge can be immobilizing, and it's a shame that that that has to happen because there's so much power in our communities.
Speaker 1:And once I started doing this work, I realized how hungry people were for this form of connection, um, and then they take up the work themselves, you know and uh, and share it around and I think that, um, yeah, it's just been so amazing to be able to witness that with people, um, and I've experienced such generosity from them that I feel's just been so amazing to be able to witness that with people, and I've experienced such generosity from them that it really feels like a gift to be able to do this work and I want to do whatever I can to help support other people in continuing it, because I think that it is transformational.
Speaker 1:It really does something powerful when we connect to people in this way, because it is about connection and relation and really just like opening ourselves to other people, yeah. So, yeah, I just wanted to thank you and also, yeah, just to speak to other people who are sort of at the beginning of this journey and, um, it's really worth, uh, having the patience and you know, sitting through some of the discomfort to get to the point where, um you know, our communities start opening up again.
Speaker 2:You know I appreciate those words and I thank you for, uh, your contribution to the work. Uh, you know, as it has happened and as you move into the future, um, and I appreciate you taking the time to sit with me and, uh, yeah, it's been an awesome conversation yeah, good night hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me.
Speaker 2:Uh, through this episode, I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so, and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you, here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.