Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
The Red Road: How Traditional Tattoos Guide One Artist's Sobriety Journey with Nick Wawia
#060 The journey from addiction to wholeness often requires powerful medicine. For Nicholas Wawia, that medicine came in the form of ancestral skin marking – specifically, the forward-facing red lines across his face that remind him daily to "keep my sights forward" on the red road of sobriety.
In this raw, heartfelt conversation with host Dion Kaszas, Nicholas shares how traditional tattooing practices became central to his recovery and identity reclamation. "I need something a little more to reclaim my identity, because all I knew was addiction," he explains, revealing how facial markings serve as both spiritual and practical guides through challenging moments. The horizontal lines keep his vision "locked" forward, while upward-pointing marks ensure his eyes are "guided right back up" whenever they drift downward – a powerful metaphor for maintaining focus on healing.
What makes Nicholas's perspective particularly valuable is his position as an emerging practitioner finding his way. Unlike established artists with decades of experience, he offers relatable insights from someone early in their journey, creating accessible entry points for others hesitant to begin exploring ancestral practices. His story demonstrates how Indigenous artforms aren't frozen relics but living traditions that address contemporary challenges like addiction recovery and identity formation.
The conversation moves between deeply philosophical reflections on creating "new old" traditions and practical discussions about establishing Trilllectric Tattoo, Nicholas's health-inspected studio in Sudbury. Throughout, both artists emphasize creative expression as medicine: "I owe my life to art," Nicholas states, explaining how marking has kept him connected to purpose and community. Their exchange illuminates how traditional skin marking transcends mere decoration to become a transformative practice of healing, reconnection, and cultural resilience.
Whether you're interested in indigenous tattooing practices, recovery journeys, or the power of art as medicine, this episode offers profound insights into how ancestral wisdom can guide us through modern challenges. Subscribe now to join this transformative journey and discover how traditional practices are helping Indigenous communities heal one mark at a time.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Nick at:
Instagram @trillectrictattoo and @gchiwaabooz.azhaasowin
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture
I need something a little more to reclaim my identity, because all I knew was addiction. You know what I mean. I became something I wasn't, so with that, I had been thinking. I'm like what do I have problems with? I have problems with seeing myself and seeing where I need to be. So what had happened? Initially, I got the forward-facing lines on the bridge of my nose to keep my sights forward, red ink to signify the red road.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the minobu mazuin, good life the transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikotmok skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:So my name is Nicholas Wabi. I'm from what we'll call unceded Indian territory or unceded reserve. We'll come call it unceded Indian territory or unceded reserve. Born and raised in Sudbury, but a lot of back and forth between there and yeah, that's the simplest terms. That's who I am, Cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm stoked you were able to come visit with me. You know, I always like I know you're kind of in the beginning of your journey with marking, but I think it's always important to get voices that are not really seen as the authority, because you may have some knowledge, some gems, something for somebody who's just behind you that they can't maybe connect to what I'm talking about. So, yeah, I just like to have those new voices. So the reason I'm saying that is so that you don't feel like you have to be an expert. I'm just asking you to be an expert in your own experience and allowing that to speak the way that it needs to, because all of our stories are important and I know probably in a couple years we'll check in again and we'll see where that progress is.
Speaker 1:So I'll just get you to kind of start with, what has been your journey with skin marking? It's been, like you said, really new, a new thing to me, and I appreciate you for bringing me on here. My journey with the skin marking actually came as a surprise. Uh, I had originally like how I got to tattooing marking? Was I started with uh painting? I was painting a lot and then my ex's brother got a tattoo machine. Yeah, then he saw the work that I was doing and stuff and he didn't want the machine. He had no like uh desire to do it and I'm like, well, I I don't really want it. So my ex got it from him then pass it on to me. Then I had this like amazon coil machine yeah, like I'm messing around with it, whatever and it was like this is really interesting. And then, instead of tattooing, I was researching more and more with, like European traditional tattooing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like, wow, this is pretty cool, like it goes back so far. And then, like I got introduced to our indigenous markings and the way that those are brought on, and then a whole new world opened up and it was like something clicked in my brain that like it felt really natural to start doing this kind of work. And the lengths of knowledge go so deep doing this kind of work and it, the lengths of knowledge, go so deep. So I think that's what it's like keeps me in here and you know, I'm still really early on. Yeah, but the uh, yeah, the, the history of it all and digging up like things that weren't documented. But then you hear these stories from other people. Yeah, it's like, oh, these, these mean this or that means that it's like it's ongoing. I was still learning to this day, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:It's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think part that's part of the joy that I get from doing this podcast. You know learning from everyone, you know whether they're in the beginning of their journey or they've been at it for 30 plus years. So it's always a joy to continue to learn, because each conversation gives me a little piece that helps me on my own journey. And then my idea for it was always like let's spread that out so that it's not just me who gets the value of the conversations that I have?
Speaker 1:uh, but everyone um, what machine are you using now, right now? So I actually upgraded. I got myself my very own machine. That's a uh flux spectra. So it's the pen. Yeah, a lot different than the coil and a lot different than the hand poking yeah but you know, being versatile in that way is something that's like I'm starting to observe.
Speaker 1:It's like really, uh, priceless I think, maybe it's a word, something like that so like being able to do stuff so manually without electricity, do stuff with where you're all hooked up to these different things, and then to a point where you know this thing is battery operated and it's just like, yeah, yeah, it's a lot of fun. So I'm running with that now. It's like bounced a hand, poke a lot, yeah, but I'm looking at getting a coil again. I don't want to scare clients. You know they thought we moved past that. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it. It lines so good, it packs color so good, I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It. I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting because people are always like oh, it lines like a coil.
Speaker 1:You're like why the fuck, am I not using a coil? Exactly, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, anyways, no, I think it's interesting that you know a lot of people, I would say, nowadays, who are just getting into, you know, the more commercial, professional, professional tattoo artist. Um, I've never used the coil, so it's cool that you have some of that knowledge in terms of uh, even just messing with it, let alone, you know, perfecting it. You know, I've been, I've used coils for a long time and I don't think I've perfected it at all, but I just love uh. Yeah, I think the uh. There is a lot of value in using the coils. One thing I think about is a lot of people will comment like, who have been tattooed with coils and then tattooed with uh, a rotary or a machine that has less sound when you turn it on is like it's almost like a warning. You know you turn that on and you're like okay, we're ready to go, I know what's happening, but yeah, no, pretty cool to hear that experience. So how did you move from using the machine into the hand poking?
Speaker 1:uh, so that that actually came about when, uh so I had been tattooing on myself and fruits and things like that, and then I had met up with uh, this, uh, my, you know, a guy I worked with before in tattooing. He brought me in, uh introduced me to hand poking, but because I was using a coil and he hadn't used a coil, like you said, like these more experienced people don't know how to operate these things it's like he didn't really know how to approach that you know. So then right away, it's like, uh, have you hand poked? I'm like, no, I don't know. He's like, uh, anyway, here's a, here's a traditional needle bar.
Speaker 1:What you're gonna do is do is like, take this, you know practice on fake skin, get the depth right, yeah. And then, yeah, and then like soon after, I was on skin hand poking, doing these markings and you know other images like somewhat petroglyphs, pictographs, that type of thing, spiritually charged images for our people, yeah, and clans and things like that. So these ones felt way more fitting to use that approach, yeah of hand poking.
Speaker 1:Uh, I found a lot of it. It was like really different. You know it wasn't like. You know, you don't, you don't have to. You're on a real, like intimate level with this person now and then.
Speaker 2:That's when I realized like this tattooing is just more than just this ink thing you know, yeah, that's a big part of it, but it's like beyond that, right, yeah, big time, yeah, um, can you say any more about that? Um about the it being more than just ink?
Speaker 1:oh, yeah, definitely, yeah. So with like what I, what I realized early on, with it being more than ink, it's like I'm doing this tattoo, I'm practicing my technical application and all that stuff, but then with so you're sitting with someone for like an hour or above. You know longer than that. So you've got a lot to talk about and you can, in certain scenarios well, almost all scenarios you feel that kind of energy shift between the client and the artist, where then you know it's becoming. I find if you're looking at it and you've got your hearts and minds in the right place about this tattoo, then the shift is like significant in your whatever you're trying to break through. You know, whatever it may be it's like a release or it's a gift to you you know you did well.
Speaker 1:In whatever it is, you get a tattoo, a memorial tattoo, and you know you really, really feel that with the hand poking I think it's because there's no buffers in between that might be a word for that Nothing's stopping that flow of energy. You know it's your hand that needle their skin, yeah, and then the collaboration between that. You know, when you break it down and it's not just, you know you sought me out to do a tattoo instead. Let's work on this together. What? What are you trying to express with this thing? You know, then, the amount of external factors like around the tattoo. That's what's way more significant. The tattoo is the smallest part of it in my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. Yeah, yeah, I would definitely agree. In the way that I always kind of boil down that observation is that we just need to use the right tool for the job Right. When you look at that, you're like, maybe this should be poked, or maybe it should be both. Or maybe, like for me, maybe it should be machine hand, maybe it should be both.
Speaker 2:Or maybe, like for me, maybe it should be machine hand, poke and skin stitch right Like let's meld them all together, let's bring them together into the fullness of who we are as contemporary Indigenous people. So it's just using the right tool for the job, and I think that's a very good observation that you've made in terms of like good observation that you've made in terms of like. You know that embodied knowledge of just going through that experience is, uh, quite valuable. I would say um, and then you, at the end there you kind of hinted to something more in terms of um, you know, those external variables are actually more important, more than the mark itself. Um, can we explore that a little bit?
Speaker 1:yeah, from your, from your thinking yeah, so observation, I what I think like. Uh, you have to repeat that it escaped me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, of course, uh, yeah, you had mentioned that. You know, one of the things that you found is that you know it's the things that are happening outside of just the mark, just the tattoo, just I would call it the artifact. You know what are those things that are important outside of just the mark itself.
Speaker 1:A lot of the emotional variables in that. Whatever that may be, I think is a really heavy one. The spiritual significance, whether it's like towards growth or whatever it is, yeah, honoring these ancestors too, you know, taking these old markings that we haven't seen for years and bringing them back to life in our age now yeah, so it's. I think you guys said one time it's just acknowledging the resilience of our people. Yeah, kind of thing. So that in terms of our indigenous hand poking, that is extremely heavy and valuable, you know to our people and like to openly express poking yeah, that is extremely heavy and valuable. You know to our people and like to openly express that. Yeah, so it's like even saying that is beyond the tattoo, because it's now the perception of our people, I think, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, you know, I think part of that, you know, comes from just observing and thinking about what you're sharing is part of that, you know comes from just observing and thinking about what you're sharing is Part of that is, of course, for our people and the way that we see ourselves, but then also externally, to ensuring that people see us. You know my friend, amy Malboff Métis, artist. You know she says that when people look at her, you know they see, they see everything but an indigenous woman.
Speaker 2:You know, they'll look for everything except that. But because she has facial markings now, um, they have to see her for who she is, and that also ensures that they see her ancestors as they're moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. So I guess you know, in as far as you're comfortable, let's explore your facial marking.
Speaker 1:Right on. Yeah, yeah, these are. It was a weird development Not a weird development, but I think it had been the right time and everything. And it actually happened when I went to my first tattoo gathering at Tainanaga, yeah, and when I was there, you know, I had been thinking about it for a while. I'm like I think I need something Because I had just begun, earlier in that year, my sobriety journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, you know, I was doing significant things, things like making big steps, and I'm like I need something a little more to reclaim my identity, because all I knew was addiction. You know what I mean. I became something. I wasn't um. So with that, I had been thinking I'm like what, what do I have problems with? I have problems with seeing myself and seeing where I need to be. So what had happened? Initially, I got the forward-facing lines on the bridge of my nose to keep my sights forward, red ink to signify the red road, the Minobu Matsuin, good life. So that happened. I did the lower ones pointing upwards, so that you know, metaphorically or whatever, that my eyes, if they do start hanging low, looking low, that they'll be guided right back up and forward. And then, later on, I developed the lines on the sides, horizontal lines forward, which is like a reinforcement, so that they're locked yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, yeah yeah, yeah, I had thrown three dots on each side for all my siblings. Yeah, because for them too't need to be sober and I've been way more present in their lives, the lives of my family, since sobering up, so that's really significant. I get to carry that every day and look in the mirror and that's me and that's my family. And eventually I had extended the lines. It's still coming to fruition. I had remarked them myself, because someone who had marked them was not. I don't want to carry those values with me. So reclaiming that too, you know what I mean. Yeah, so it's been a huge development as a person. So the longer the lines, it's kind of like the longer I'm on the journey. I think that's where I'm at now. Yeah, with my sobriety.
Speaker 2:yeah, thank you for sharing that um, you know one thing I think about when uh you share, that is this idea of the new, old right. Uh, people message up and go like hey what do you know about these marks?
Speaker 2:right um and um, I think we've had that conversation and for me, um, you know, it's because we you know, I always say this in this podcast, but because I'm sitting with somebody new, I'll share it. Um, you know, we're looking back and we're going. You know, we're looking to the academic literature, we're looking to stories from back and we're going. We're looking to the academic literature, we're looking to stories from our elders, we're looking wherever we can to find these ideas of what the marks meant for our people. But part of the reality is, even if we find those, we're lucky as Inchikapmuk people.
Speaker 2:We have a booklet that has some of those definitions for us as a community and surrounding communities, but we still have to interpret those for today, because our life, our world, the place that we live is completely different than that of our ancestors, and so we have to interpret those things for today. Yes, we have to stay connected to those uh, as best we can, but then also, I like to bring forward that uh, you know, we're looking back and we're saying, oh, those are old, but at one time those things were new, and so you know, uh, julia mungiao gray says the new old, we are the new old, and so now what you're doing is you're starting to create the new uh reality of what these markings mean for your people in the contemporary time so, yeah, that's powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I I am starting to uh notice exactly that. Like that's what I've been thinking and, you know, talking to uh other younger, indigenous people, it's like what is this? You know, where did you find that? It's like, well, uh, I could like thought about it, gave a lot of thought, the significance to me because now, like, come the future, you're gonna look back and there's, there's gonna be us, and then there's gonna be, you know, our older generations, but we're gonna be still as significant as what was. Yeah, well, like you said, the contemporary kind of thing, like we're the new, old, and I really dig that.
Speaker 2:That's cool, yeah no, it's uh, I think it's empowering. It also helps us to step outside of those kind of uh, colonial boxes which say that you know, uh, the only authentic indian is a dead indian. Right, the only authentic Indian is a dead Indian. The only authentic Indigenous experience is the experience of the past. And also honoring the fact that your Indigenous experience isn't my Indigenous experience, and everyone who sits around that table, their know, their indigenous experience isn't my indigenous experience.
Speaker 2:And, uh, the beauty is the beauty of the full picture is all of us expressing our indigeneity in the ways that we need to, based on our own experiences, and, uh, allowing that fluidity, uh, so that we don't don't get stuck in, stuck in those colonial boxes that say that you have to be this, we're not going to acknowledge you unless you're this, that or the other thing, and for me it's like, no, all of those Indigenous experiences are, and have been, tainted by the colonial project, and so we have to honor that and allow each of us to walk in that indigenous experience as individuals, as human beings and as community members in the best ways that we can. Um, so, you had mentioned that you got your markings at tayandanega. What was that experience? Going to the first gathering?
Speaker 1:oh it was. I was nervous, a lot of like the. I still deal with it today. But the imposter syndrome, it's like, oh man, I don't deserve to be here, I shouldn't be here, whatever. Then I actually saw my cousin, crystal Kim, on there and then she didn't recognize me. It's been so long. And then, you know, it's like, hey, how's it going? So, right away, you know that was my back home. You know it's like, oh man, I have a family here. And then every other artist just welcomed with open arms and it was like home away from home kind of thing.
Speaker 1:You know, we're all from different uh tribes, nations, backgrounds, so it was really like that opened my eyes a lot, because all I knew was ojibwe, like a cree up north, like that's it now, like what? There's so many other people that I haven't met, like different uh tribes and nations, like I said, and that was like I. I still think about it, like I'll have dreams here and there about it. It's just like, you know, being outside tattooing around uh, our people, you know, and like we're reviving this thing, you know, and and, but bringing it in a modern way. You know, we're not staying too old school where we're picking up the bones and stuff, yeah, but we're using modern tech to do these things and reclaim that, yeah, and that was awesome.
Speaker 1:So, like the nerves got shook away really fast till, actually, my first tattoo and I hit the first poke. I was like, oh my god, what am I doing? I was like. Then I was like you know what, my God, what am I doing? Then I was like you know what? Just go through with the confidence. This guy came here and asked me for this thing and I'm going to approach it in a good way. So my mind and heart kind of quickly realized that and acknowledged what this is, for what it is. It was a lot all at once. So I've been dissecting it every day. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's also cool, because just when I think about you know, what you had described in terms of your own facial markings, is that like? You know that looking down of like, oh fuck, then you know, those markings remind you. Nope, you know you're here for a purpose, keep focused. That's cool, that's a cool reminder. Yeah, here for a purpose, keep focus, that's cool, that's a cool reminder. I, uh, yeah, that really resonates with me and I would say, uh, helps me to rethink my own markings too. You know, because, uh, yeah, we're all on that journey of like, you know, I don't think it's a unique experience of that imposter syndrome. You know, I think that is a byproduct of the mining of our minds, you know, the mining of our souls and our hearts as indigenous people and as human beings, because I don't think it's a unique experience to us as indigenous people. All humanity, uh, is being mined for, uh, our hearts and souls. So you know, uh, it is a good reminder. It's cool, I like that. Are there any other further reflections?
Speaker 1:you can think of about Tyendinaga, other gatherings that you've been to. I would say, looking back on it, I wish that I could have well moving forward. I can approach these gatherings in a different way, in my own way, in a way that I think these gatherings deserve sort of towards their treatment and acknowledgement of each other. And unfortunately, I think, like the first times around, because I was working under somebody that a lot of greed was involved, yeah, and I knew in my heart like, hey, man, I don't know if this is, you know how to do this, but I can move forward from that and I'm looking forward to making an appearance at more gatherings, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that's. You know, that's a valuable learning lesson, right? Yeah, no, I think that's a valuable learning lesson.
Speaker 1:Right that, moving forward, I think, is the key to some of that. As I understand it, you've moved to a private place or a new place, a new place to do the work. Can you tell me about that? Uh, so it was. Uh. So I, I fell out of the studio that I was at.
Speaker 1:Then I had another friend, uh, another fellow tattoo artist, um, fred kember he was. He opened up his little private studio to keep up with his work and then I was out just traveling doing guest spots. I'm like I need a home or something. I need somewhere to settle down. So I was set up with him for a little bit in this, uh, separate apartment unit. Uh that he actually got public health inspected, which was awesome. So then I'm like, whoa, this is good, clients will like us. Then he had to take off. Then I'm like, oh no, what about this place? I'm going to have to look, I don't know what to do. And then he's like, let me talk to the landlord and I'll put the word off for that for you. Talk to the landlord and you know, I'll put the word off for that for you. And then it went right through. I did my health inspection.
Speaker 1:So it's, I just took over this apartment space that's only for tattooing and you know it's my space because I don't like, I do a lot of traveling so I don't want to go to shop then leave them high and dry. It's like I'm gonna be out two weeks of the out of month or whatever. So, set up there by myself, uh, still learning, teaching myself. I'd go pop in at shops around town to keep that knowledge flowing and whatever anybody else may have for me. Uh, it's been.
Speaker 1:It was really stressful and nerve-wracking and the imposter syndrome hit hard. I was like I went to one of of the old school shops there in Sudbury and these guys like, after the shift of me taking over happened the guy Don Kuto. He looks at me and he's like so you're a business owner now or something. I was like no, it's not like that. It's not like that. Don't say that, it sounds too serious. I just have a space where I can tattoo still. Yeah, yeah, that was a lot, because I don't do business. I don't do nothing. I never went to school for business. So having imposter syndrome for arts and tattooing especially, that's a whole other thing. Having imposter syndrome for trying to run a business is like the doubt is crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:But just have to keep eyes on straight. You know what I mean. Yeah, keep eyes on straight.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, yeah, yeah, I know we were just talking uh with jay the other day, uh about you know the importance of actually seeing our uh tattoo experiences and our tattoo work as a business. You know, uh, I think that's, you know, uh pretty key, especially for those of us who are uh trying to make a living uh marking right, uh tattooing whatever you want to say uh, if you want to distinguish those two things, um, but yeah, no, it's pretty cool. How was the experience of uh going through health inspection?
Speaker 1:oh it was. It was actually really easy it was. It was nerve-wracking at first, but so I have a 10-year history of restaurant work, yeah. So I have to like the public health things ingrained in me. It's like well, health inspectors, like well, everything's already cleaned, everything's where it should be. You know I'm that type of guy, yeah. And then I had taken in college pre-health sciences. Yeah, so I'm aware of all uh contaminants and stuff like that and have a little bit of a deeper knowledge like uh, rather than just surface level skin, this, and that it's like how to keep your areas clean to disinfectant. So I just set up, like confidently, how I would did my thing.
Speaker 1:The guy came in. He's like, yeah, it looks good. Like I've been, I've seen a lot worse. And I was like, okay, that's good. I think he's like you know what? Like just keep it like this. Like I've been, I've seen a lot worse. And I was like, okay, that's good. I think he's like you know what? Like just keep it like this, like you'll be fine, stuff like that. That guy actually knew my cousin, which was awesome.
Speaker 2:He's like oh your cousin's cool man.
Speaker 1:He loves talking.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, he's just awesome, anyway are we good, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's important too because, um, you know, not everybody goes through that process and I think, not saying that everybody has to be health inspected, especially those who are, um, you know, doing the work in different ways, but having that knowledge is actually key. And again, talking with jay, I've talked with many folks who, uh, you know, I've always been at the, you know, talking about the health and how important that actually is, and so it's cool to hear that you've went through that process of the health inspection and yeah, no, that's good, that's really good to hear that you're moving forward and what's the name of your space and all of that stuff?
Speaker 1:oh, it's a lot of people don't get it, but it's trill electric tattoo. So the first part, trill, is slang for true and real, which is kind of what how I approach the work yeah, and then electric, just combined the words did some fancy stuff. Yeah, cool. And where is it located? So that one's right in the heart of sudbury. Well, actually on, according to the boundary map of downtown sudbury, we're on the outside of it, right on the brim.
Speaker 2:Right on the border.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're right there, and so Instagram all. That's probably the best place for people to connect. Cool, do you have anyone else working there with you?
Speaker 1:I do right now, a part-time artist is Nibishan Strudo. She does handpoking traditional, like strictly hand poking. She's dealt with machine a little bit but you know she's comfortable with the hand pokes and she's been learning via my cousin, crystal. So it's actually her son's girlfriend who's working there, yeah, and she does work at the uh native health center up there, okay, yeah, so she's got a health background too, which I'm super stoked on that. We share, like similar uh knowledge. You know what I mean. But we could still balance things off of each other and we learn a lot. Um, she's still battling that thing where it's like I need to hold the job to live, but I really want to do this, yeah yeah, that'll happen.
Speaker 2:It'll happen one day, uh, where you can put it down, or maybe not, you know, because sometimes uh it's a sometimes it's easy to do it in that uh kind of part-time way so that you can be more flexible. You know you have less, less flexibility when you uh are doing that. You know kind of the full-time route. So when you think about the work that you do, you know how much of that is, you know the hand poke, the ancestral designs, and how much of that is non-Indigenous designs.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good question. I would say they're pretty evenly even departments. I would say the handpokes are kind of going down a bit right now. Yeah, not a lot of people are seeking that right now, especially living in the city. That, like you know, a lot of the when I travel back home to my reserve, that's when I will get some of those kinds of things, yeah. But yeah, so that part, the ancestral designs, like more spiritually charged things, kind of lacking right now, yeah, which is fine. I don't need to force it on anybody, it will come to them when it needs to, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, as for like more indigenous designs, I I try to go towards, uh, like some woodland style stuff. Yeah, I really enjoy that. With the bold lines, black work, I'm trying to get more like add more color into that. But with the demographic up there is kind of people don't like color up there. I'm like why this is the most expressive thing you could do. That's pretty big too, because I'm a young person. So I'm taking a lot of imagery that I see in my age and kind of mix it in a mix of things, so that I got this new old stuff, so to speak. And then the non-Indigenous designs. I do a lot of American traditional. That's what I like. So I've been drawing a lot of that and kind of getting people back into that with newer imagery. Because you know, the sparrows swallows like this. You've seen them all. Yeah, yeah, it's hard, it takes a lot of brain power to be like this might not be seen. You go on the internet it's like oh shit, somebody did that yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, the internet it's like oh shit, somebody did that yesterday. Yeah, yeah, no, that's interesting. Um, oh, before we go on, I just wanted to shout out my own shop, the my own studio that I work at, is hfx tattoo in bedford, nova scotia. I just want to shout out to taryn and the crew uh, just reminded me to do that because you know you said that. Um, you know you travel a lot and you don't want to leave the shop, so I do that all the time. So I just want to shout out taryn and the crew at hfx uh, you know, just an awesome crew and uh, the flexibility that taryn gives me to uh run all over the world is, uh, you know, is pretty spot on and awesome. So I just got to give her and the crew props for holding it down in bed.
Speaker 1:Huge, huge props to let your birds fly.
Speaker 2:No, that's yeah, I just wanted to do that because I've done it here and there. But it's always good to give those props where they're due because, yeah, when I here and there. But it's always good to give those props where they're due Because, yeah, when I'm not there, you know the business does, you know, suffer? You know Not a lot, just because I'm not always in the shop all the time, but, you know, just a couple times a week usually. So when you go home, you said, when you go back to your reserve and your community, you know lots of people just approach you for that.
Speaker 2:Do you set up back there or what's that look, hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks.
Speaker 1:The link is in the show notes yeah, so me like lately, when I would go set up there, I would set, me and my cousin crystal, uh, we would uh rent a space down there, the community living center, so it has all the fixings that a tattoo shop would need, and we just set our things apart and, yeah, they host us there while we rent and then you know, we book our markings or tattoos, whatever it may be, and then we plan that out so we'll make like an advanced post and go out there and check them out, because there is not much on the island and not like I got one of my friends who actually gave my first tattoos out there, riley Wright. I got one of my friends who actually gave my first tattoos out there, probably, right, he's, he's an awesome guy, but he does a lot of different work, right, he approaches things differently. We approach things differently, like Crystal, and I approach it differently. So, showing and there's a lot of people in wiki, it's like 3000 members or something, yeah, I think. I think this is an approximation. I think it's like 3 000 on reserve, 3 000 off, yeah, a lot. And there's like not only just wakamakong on manitoulin, but then there's like point grandine, which is a sub section of it, I think.
Speaker 1:So down towards, uh, clarny, yeah, but yeah, when we go out there, like we all kind of make feelers, see what everybody's how everybody's doing financially and stuff like that. Who needs, uh, some ink and stuff like that. It goes pretty well, though, because a lot of people need it. You know they don't. When I lived there and you didn't have a vehicle, you're just there, you don't leave. You know which sucks, yeah. Yeah, because you're like way at the edge of an island and like you can't even make it anywhere. There used to be a greyhound there, but they stopped going there.
Speaker 2:oh wow, yeah, like covid, I think, yeah yeah, yeah, um, so what is that process to book with you? What does that look like, um, and is there a difference between, uh, those ancestral marks, the using of the ancestral tools and technology, or using machine? What does that look like for you? The booking process? Yeah, and they can. Uh, you know, uh, are you doing trade? Are you doing, uh, cash? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:uh, usually what the?
Speaker 1:age we live in is like the digital time. So it's like you know, I'll take e-transfer, but if you have cash, that's awesome. That's way better. But yeah, I will approach uh more traditional markings with trades. So I'll trade for medicine and stuff like that things that I don't have, uh that I may need, uh whatever. If somebody has a surplus or something, I'm like well, if you're tight on cash and you need to, you know we could work this part. Uh like get the statue done in some way or another, whether it be even like bringing me tobacco and it's like here, you know I wanted this as a gift and you know we're gonna work this out. So I'm like not opposed to that. I think that's a more ideal, means it's more fulfilling too, rather than like here's a bunch of plastic or here's an e-transfer that you can't see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, when you go or even like, do you do a lot of like posts of available designs, or do mostly people reach out to you and say you know, I'm looking to get marked? You know what does that look like for you?
Speaker 1:designs and non-indigenous, yeah, uh, for more. Of these sacred markings type of thing I don't typically draw them up myself because they're, then it would just be mine, you know. Then there's no purpose. It's like people see that it's like, oh, a bunch of lines like that's awesome, uh, I need it to resonate with people, and I'm sure I'll get there, though, at some point where I can develop a certain thing, yeah, uh, that's more, uh, spiritually to a person where they can resonate with that. But I like to leave it up to the client, you know, and I let them approach me with that kind of thing. It's not my place to decide what you wear, you know. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's cool. You know you'd mentioned, when you think about your, what like the demographic of folks. You know, is it mostly Indigenous people that come to you or is it a mix of non-Indigenous and Indigenous? How do you navigate that process?
Speaker 1:I would say it's about 50-50. I get a good chunk of Indigenous and non-Indigenous. Each is different. I approach it the same way. You know both like they want ink. It's like we're going to go about this in a good way and I like appreciate anyone and everyone that comes to me as a beginning artist to to give me the chance to keep on honing my craft. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know you would mention that you've kind of just kind of stepped into the marking. But you know you had mentioned that you've kind of just kind of stepped into the marking. But you know what other artistic stuff do you do and what have you done coming up to this point?
Speaker 1:In terms of like mediums. Yeah, so before around. Well, actually I started with graffiti. Yeah. Then you know, do that on spare time, do that under the influence Not a good idea. Yeah. Then eventually, like you know, just drawing in sketchbooks, like letters and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Then it moved on or came around like 2018. I had a pretty eventful fall that year, yeah. And then you know my older sister, nonnie Bell, she paints, she painted a lot, uh, and then she suggested she saw me struggling a lot and was like you should just try painting something. Try like on canvas, because you're not committing a crime, you're just making something. I'm like, oh man, okay fine. So I just like, painted a canvas, painted, uh, some cartoon characters. I was like this is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Then that led on to me jumping into painting canvases like acrylic. So I did that more abstract looking stuff, uh, keeping that graffiti-esque, uh expressionism type of thing, because it's what I knew. Uh, then moved on to like some oil painting, which is like unreal, yeah, I love it. It's so, it's difficult, but it's like close to tattooing a little bit. Yeah. Then, from that, like I obviously had to learn watercolor, yeah. So doing my hand painting my flash pages is like that's really meditative and these are the things that keep me out of trouble. So I really really like I owe my life to art. You know what I mean. And tattooing. So then you know, from the painting went on to the uh, tattooing. I had a little acting stint there for a bit. Oh yeah, I was in my high school play yeah yeah, artistically, I think that's about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, concrete so, uh, shout out to family for helping to guide you in that direction gently or maybe not so gently, I don't know but saying you got to do this. Um, yeah, shout out. I think you know it's important to lift up those family that, uh, help us navigate some of those challenging times. Uh, you know, I'm thankful for my family, for the times that, you know, I was being a hooligan, running around like a headless coyote, you know. So, yeah, I appreciate that and I think it's always important to highlight that those people who help us on our journey, so, yeah, and I, you know, I don't think it's not an insignificant observation that you've made. That you know, you said that. You know these are the things that keep me out of trouble. I think that's important to highlight as well is finding an outlet for whatever that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time. You know what was your thought and feeling when I first reached out to you to come on the podcast. You know what did you think you? Uh, yeah, just leaving that that's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:So, uh, what happened was I was actually with, uh, another artist that you had reached out to, annie Courchene. Yeah, yeah, my. So her and I started tattooing together that's like my sister. And she was like, guess who? Messaged me, dion, I was like no way, that's awesome. And then she had a thought that was like, oh, maybe it's not the time right now, or whatever. And I was like that's okay, man, you don't need to be speaking about it right now. There's more than enough time in the future, totally. And then the next day, and then you messaged me. It was like, hey, man, and I'm like no way, oh shit, this is awesome. And then I realized I was like Annie, what the fuck? You told him to message me at better. So I was just like I did. I did Because you talk a lot. And I was like, oh fuck, true enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was super stoked, though I was like hell, yeah, I got like the amount of things like as a newer artist and the way that you mentioned earlier a younger voice for the younger voices. You know what I mean and I see that like in myself. I'm branching. That's what I want to do, you know. I want to be a good role model to these kids and show them that like you can turn your life around and something I was like. I did not expect to do this kind of work, but I fell into it and I fit in here pretty nicely. I think I'm still making my way and it's going to be the whole career like that figuring out, just learning, yeah, and taking steps to be a mentor in this one program for youth in transition, yeah, yeah, so with this, it's like taking these little steps into where I want to be and I was really, really stoked and grateful for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome, yeah, it's interesting. You say that because you know I had a film crew come through to help promote. Actually, the episodes that I'm, you know, recording right now are supported by an arts Nova Scotia grant, uh, through uh support for culture, um, and so, you know, shout out for them for providing uh me the funds to come out here and to give you a little bit for your time and energy, um, but yeah, they asked me an interesting question. They said you know, do you see yourself as a hero? And I was like whoa, that's like it's actually quite a loaded question, I think you know, and of course, for me, you know, I want to lift people up and I don't know that I really connect with that terminology of the hero, because for me that always translates back to like a superhero, then that translates back to like the person of Jesus and the Bible and Christianity, and then that relates to people putting you on a pedestal, and then that relates to this idea of perfection. You know, these people we put up on pedestals, we. That relates to this idea of perfection. You know, we, we, these people we put up on pedestals, we expect them to be perfect, which I'm not fucking perfect, I'm super imperfect, and so I started to think about this idea of the hero and I started to think about well, what type of hero are you looking at? What are you speaking about? What are you thinking about? And of course, I never said that in that conversation, but that's been on my mind, uh, and actually I actually had some time to reflect on it as I've been here and I'm like, well, our transformers, the people in our stories, or I should speak for infakamuk people, interior salish people you know, the transformer, the person who helped to create the world as it is, to destroy some of the monsters that we're eating and destroying our people, is Coyote, and Coyote is a very imperfect hero. And so if people ask me, are you a hero? If you're talking about the hero of Coyote, I'm a hero like that, but I'm not a hero like Jesus. You know any of those type of things. But all that to say that I think it's important for us to have people to look up to, even in their imperfection, and when we look up to them, it helps us to see ourselves in the future, because we can imagine ourselves as you or someone else, as crystal, you know, um, as any other number of practitioners out into the world. There's julie, julia all of these people, uh, as tihoti you know, looking, and I think that you know that helps us to move through that imposter syndrome and imagine ourselves in the future. I think that that's one of the things that we struggle with, especially as young people is imagining ourselves in the future, and so it's important to have imperfect as we all are people to look up to. And that's one of my goals for this podcast and that's what I said in that interview is, you know, I don't even think I answered the question of whether I think I'm a hero. I don't really think I'm a hero at all. I think I'm just presenting opportunities for people to share their story and their journey in the hopes that somebody connects with that story and that journey and that helps them to move into this plane of existence more and more each and every time they hear it. But yeah, that was a long monologue.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. You know, as you were thinking about having this conversation with me on the podcast, was there anything that you were thinking that you felt would be important to share or to talk about?
Speaker 1:and or, uh, yeah, um yeah, well, kind of they all escape me right now.
Speaker 1:But to to add on to that uh whole hero thing and like being a role model yeah I think, uh, you know, with my experience in apprenticeship, mentorship type of thing, is that us, you know, also now as role models, I mean as a younger, younger role model is that you know I need to be moving in a certain way where I am not entirely. What's the word unattainable? You know the position that I'm in. Unattainable, you know the position that I'm in. I'm trying to make it look, as you know, because it was hard to do what I've done, you know, with sobriety or with tattooing, whatever it is. It was hard but it's not impossible and I want to show that.
Speaker 1:So, even you know, when I'm on the internet I'll make posts of, you know, sobriety, progress or whatever. You know, posting drawings. Posting drawings, people like why are you getting so good? I'm like I've shown you every single step of the way because I want to show, like, here are the steps you can take, you, anybody can do this. You just need to have that calling.
Speaker 1:And even if it's like not pursuing tattooing entirely but to pursue drawing as a pastime or something, because I know the healing of art, uh, that is done for me, yeah, and even my, my granddad, uh, lee labelle, he shares the same value as that and hearing him say that, I was like wow, but for some reason, for him like to look at him and see where he is with his art, it almost seems unattainable because he's so far up there now. Yeah, and now that I'm a youth and you know I see other people in the similar boat I am to be be that role model where it is possible. Yeah, you know, and like showing that exposure doesn't have to be secrets. I'm not moving, doing magic behind closed doors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like it's gritty, but it's like here's the steps. You know what I mean. And so, yeah, not being a hero, but just being this, uh, good role model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, not saving anybody, but you're showing them how to save themselves, type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's all uh interesting too, and I think uh it relates back to conversations I've had with people in my infacomic black work project, where we're taking on full torso suits, body suits, and that conversation of you know, when I think about this idea of tattoo medicine a lot of it relates back to me is the people who get the most out of the work are people who are already on that journey, right, and this is just part of that healing journey that they're already on. So it's not necessarily, and I would totally say it's not me, it's actually them who's sitting down Receiving the mark, going through that process, finding the meaning for themselves and working through all of those internal pieces. Because when I'm tattooing, I usually don't talk a lot, we're just doing the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I wanted to say to you and I think I forgot to say it but like the ability to surpass where? So, like, if I look at you and I want to be kind of like you, but I don't want to be myself, but the ability to surpass that, yeah, no, and without the uh ego, yeah, you don't need to be thrown out the window in this industry because we're we're all doing the same thing and right now, economically it's not like the greatest. So it's like yeah, uh, but yeah, being open to people passing you, you know it's okay to do that kind of thing and, yeah, the people that are receiving that, I like that yeah, for me.
Speaker 2:It reminds me too is is why I'm doing the podcast. I want to lift everybody up because when we're all being lifted up together, we go farther. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to really get there in a good way, you go together. You go together, right, yeah, and so that's really what I want to do is to help expose uh, as many of our communities and our people, to those people who can help them get the marks that they need uh in the ways that they need them.
Speaker 2:And the reality is is that somebody may not connect with me, right? Somebody may not uh jive with the way that I jive. I may not jive with them way that I jive. I may not jive with them, and that's okay, because we each have personalities, we each have our own energies, we each have our own experiences, and there's nothing wrong with that. And so the more people that people, the more people that are speaking, the more people who are visible allows them to go. Hey, okay, can you mark me? Just because they don't jive with me doesn't mean they don't deserve to be marked. They deserve to be marked, and if they can reach out to someone else and be marked. That's what's actually most important.
Speaker 2:It also reminds me of when I first started to work. I had a bit of that ego that you speak of, and I would say that some of that was also having these visions, and sometimes I think those visions were put there, you know, by creator. But I've just come to realize that some of those visions actually weren't for me and it was my job and my responsibility to pass those visions on to someone else, because they're actually better positioned to take those things on. So, instead of like, trying to keep them to myself oh, these are my ideas, these are, you know, my plans it's like, no, I'm going to share my plans, I'm going to share my visions, I'm going to share my dreams, and if somebody picks that up and starts to run with it, then we're actually all better off than if I actually kept it to myself. So I really like how you, how you, you know brought that forward. And you know, I think you're right.
Speaker 2:You know we got to get rid of that ego, even though you know we're all little coyotes yeah, every once in a while yeah so, yeah, no, I really, uh, I'm thankful that you brought that forward and I like how you um termed that or phrase that reframed it from a hero to role model. I really like that. Yeah, yeah, um, anything else come up for you that you think did something percolate up from, uh, the things that you were thinking, that you wanted to share about I'm trying to think here.
Speaker 1:I think a lot, or you know, it's those long drives.
Speaker 2:You have like a thousand thoughts yeah, of course, and it'll be the same thing. As you're going off, you'll be like, oh shit, I should have said that. It's like I'm not gonna think too hard about it but.
Speaker 1:I can't think of anything right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, um you know, I always like to uh give an opportunity, you know, are there any questions that come to mind that you would like to ask me, or things you'd like to explore, topics you know anything? Uh, yeah, that comes to mind, just so that, uh, I'm not the one grilling you and we can have a bit of a conversation. How did you start tattooing? Bit of a conversation. How did you start tattooing? Yeah, you know, I think really that, uh, that question starts with just a love for tattoos. Yeah, you know, seeing my uncles, my uncle ernie and my uncle tony uh, my uncle tony's now passed, but, uh, you know seeing them tattooed, you know, uh, you know some of them just like a little cross, you know, probably hand poked on their hand or whatever, and like other marks in other places, and like just thinking, oh, that's badass, you know, just as a young, just a young one, oh, that's so cool, you know, and uh thinking, oh, fuck, it makes them tough, you know so I always say you know that, that was it, you know the beginning, just as a little lad just thinking, uh, yeah, I want to be cool, I want to be tough
Speaker 2:you know. So that's where that obsession kind of started. And then, of course, like as a lot of other people, you know, uh, art drawing as a young person, uh, you, you know that was a bit of a sanctuary. You know, whatever was happening in my world whether people being racist, whether, uh, you know, I was feeling lonely or whatever I was able to go and draw and go into that space of uh, the, the world that I was creating in that. And then, yeah, going into my first get my first tattoo. I think I was 17 or 18, I can't remember exactly. I suck at numbers. So whenever people are trying to like ask me, oh, what's this chronology? And I'm like, fuck, like.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Back then, anyways, I went and got my first, uh tattoo and, you know, walking into that tattoo shop and just like seeing the freedom that that person had, you know, uh, yes, the art was awesome. Yes, it was cool because, like you know, people were coming in bullshitting with the guy. It was kind of like an older, you know, biker shop or whatever. But, um, yeah, just the freedom, you know, just come in whatever the fuck you wanted. You know, uh, do what he wanted, dress like he wanted. I was like, yeah, that's, that's the thing you know. So I would say, like those were kind of the first things that drove me to tattooing.
Speaker 2:And then, in 2009, my mentor, carla Romanuk, who used to own a shop in Salmon Arm, bc, but no longer owns that shop. She has her own little private studio in the Kootenays. I can't remember the exact spot, but yeah, she's out there in the kootenays in her private studio. She, um, was looking for an apprentice and she was like best friends with my wife, so I went down. I was like little book of drawings, of course, like hey, uh, I'd love to be an apprentice you know, and she's like, yeah, yeah, these are good, but of course they were just line drawings, right.
Speaker 2:Like, of course, okay, well, you can outline, but go finish these drawings right, show me that you can shade, show me that you understand shape, show me that you can understand dimension, color theory, all those things. And so of course I went out and I did another hundred drawings, brought them back and she's like, okay, these are good, you can hang out at the shop, not, you have an apprenticeship.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you can hang out, and so I hung out for a couple months and then I, um, yeah, she's like, okay, well, you have an apprenticeship, and so that was like the beginning of that journey.
Speaker 2:And then for the skin marking, it was a journey of like understanding.
Speaker 2:This is my responsibility because I understood how powerful it was by looking at the revival of indigenous tattooing in other parts of the world like, uh, new zealand, among the maori folks in southern california, uh, inuit revival, all of these, uh, different places um, yeah, just finding how much value other people were finding. And then I knew how to tattoo and I knew how important it was and I knew that we had our own practice. So I knew that this was my responsibility because I had the background in the health and safety, I knew how to mark my skin, and so I just went down to the shop one night uh, I think my wife has a video of my me and my underwear doing my first hand poke and skin stitch on my leg. Um, you know, uh, yeah, so that was just the beginning, knowing that you know our people need this, yeah, and our youth need this to root us into who they are, so that they can stay in this plane of existence. So that was like kind of the beginning. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that rings like true in my thing too. Like once you stepped into those traditional markings, then it was like, okay, you know, this is now my responsibility, it's a big responsibility in order to bring these things to life, and I resonate a lot with that. You know that switch, you know, when I popped that at Tynanaga that's what it was it was like, oh, okay, this is what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing. You know what I mean, yeah.
Speaker 1:There was something else he said in there that I wanted to add on to yeah it's just that switch right yeah like how you said that it's like oh okay, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1:I wanted to add on to this thing. So you had seen, like your old relatives, like with tattoos, and you're like that's so badass man. Like at a young age you knew you wanted to do it and I've spoke with quite a few of other tattoo artists that know this is what they wanted to do. They were young, they drew, drew through high school, whatever, and it's like I want to be a tattoo artist, I want to be a tattoo artist. Then they became a tattoo artist. Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of the back to the imposter syndrome thing where I've got into it late. I have no history or, uh, formal training in arts at all.
Speaker 1:I took one week in art school art class in high school yeah and then, uh, yeah, so then that's where it comes into me, because some people are like well, when did you like, why did you want to become a tattooer? So I'm like well, actually I'm sober and I wanted it. It keeps me sober, you know what I mean. So that's my purpose in here, and I had no like I was gonna be like a nurse and something like that and that didn't go right. So I was like you know the healing aspect of this. So when I hear your story of like you know this is from the past. Like you know, I grew up, I wanted to.
Speaker 1:That shit's so badass yeah like I thought it was cool for a while. I believe it or not, I never wanted a tattoo. I was like I'm not doing that to my body because it's an old school way of thinking right and then, developing and seeing what these traditional markings are to our people now and moving forward yeah like that really grew on me and resonated and helped me reclaim my identity. I think you know as an indigenous person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big time yeah yeah, I think that that, uh, you know part of that, part of your story I think is really valuable, uh, because it helps us to see it doesn't matter how you get into it, you know it doesn't matter how you get into it, you know it doesn't matter how, you know what that journey is, because that's your journey, and how you come into it is less important than the fact that you're here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's value. There's a lot of value in that for people looking in who may go, oh well. But, they're like oh, but you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, his story.
Speaker 2:So you know it helps people to be able to step in in that way, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:And yeah, being from a person that had no artistic background or whatever you know, and then jumping into this and I was still welcomed with open arms because I think it was that passion you know what I mean that I could do it for free if I wanted, if I could still welcome with open arms because I think it was that passion. You know what I mean? Yeah, that I, I could do it for free if I wanted, uh, if I could.
Speaker 1:But but it's my only income right now, so unfortunately I have to charge a little bit uh, but yeah, to show those people, like, wherever they are in their journey, whatever it may be, it's like, even if it's not doing anything, that you want to jump into, I think, as long as your heart's in the right place and you think this can do something for you, yeah, and for others, you know, that's where you'll get the most benefit, where it's you're sharing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, big time yeah yeah, yeah, and you know, the reality is. Is that, um, I had that dream of becoming a tattoo artist and then life took me in other ways?
Speaker 2:you know like what, from, uh, well, late 90s till 2009, uh, I was doing other things working at the bars, you know, uh, working as a christian minister for a couple of years, you know, like a bunch of different things. Life took me in a bunch of different directions, um, but then I came back to it. You know that that calling was still there and it was always like, oh, how am I going to do this, how am I going to get into it? And then, you know, just the right place, the right time, taking that opportunity and going, I'm just going to jump in. So, yeah, we all have our own path to get here, and I think that's the power of kind of being able to share our stories and how we got in, because it helps people to see that, hey, their path is similar to mine. So I don't have to feel any type of shame or any type of devalued because I didn't just go from, you know, wanting it to getting into it. You know that path is winding and moving around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think too also just an additional thought that us like pursuing the tattooing as well, and I think with anyone that wants any especially indigenous people to pursue a creative ability, is to, uh, decolonize, because it's not like. I've experienced the school system, I've experienced college, you know that kind of thing, and it's like they want you to fit the molds. You know they want you to work, they want you to do this. Yeah, whatever job it is that that helps the society economy, whatever it may be, but to pursue something so like whatever left field or something it's like I want to do.
Speaker 1:I want to create something, I want to make music, I want to express myself as a human being and you know, tattooing is like probably the most human experience. Yeah, or like any body mods yeah, because you are in that moment. You know you're in this body, you're acknowledging it and you're doing something to your body. You know, same thing, like as simple as it is, someone dying their hair. It's like, yeah, I'm taking my power as a human and really living as a human. You know I'm, I'm acknowledging my existence and and changing a certain thing. You know and you could, you could build stuff and whatever, like a structure of a house, but you know this is a thing for you yourself, as the human, to be in, uh, but like pursuing your art, living outside of what is our normal world to me is like a big step in decolonization, right, like not conforming.
Speaker 1:You're like, I, like I quit my regular job to just do this and I felt like such, uh, what's maybe liberation is the word, something like that Like I'm just, I am me existing, you know, I can finally be my whole self without the uh like shackles of a nine to five, you know things like that and and you could break free from that, like even when I was painting and still had to work in 95, it was like I get to be myself and express myself in this way and work through my own spiritual journey within this flesh kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two things come up. It's always on the periphery of our conversations, especially with ancestral skin markers, cultural tattooers, whatever you want to say, traditional artists. It's almost like an unspoken shame of us who make a living from doing this stuff. Right, and I really love how my friend, julie Pamapengali, who's Mari, one of the first wave female revivalists of Moko or Mari tattooing she says that I opened a shop because I didn't want to be part of the poor paradigm anymore. So it's like we're conditioned to think that we should be not accepting these cash, this monetary, this stuff. You know, our people had our own senses of wealth. So it's not that wealth is not part of our paradigm, or it wasn't, it certainly was. You know, some of us wore buckskins, some of us wore sewage brush and cedar clothing. Um, and there was a wealth distinction there, right? Um, of course, that was because you had help. You had hunters that were better at hunting. Therefore, that made you rich, because you had more food. You had all of those. It's just that we live in this paradigm, so it's less. I think it's like, how do we find a way to shift that perspective and to create a new economy that allows us to be wealthy in the ways that our ancestors were wealthy, right yeah, so it's just an interesting thing to consider, right yeah, so it's just an interesting thing to consider. And I don't know that I have a answer to it, but I just wanted to bring that forward. And, you know, open that up.
Speaker 2:And then the second thing that I think about is, you know you were talking about gaining control of your body. You know, like, this is my body, I'm taking control of it, and I always like to highlight that that you know, a lot of times we are very disconnected, we are disassociated from our bodies because of trauma, because of what would you say? The social pressure to be perfect, all of those type of things. And I always like to tell my clients because of course, I think it's probably everybody can relate to this who tattoos is. They'll lay down and they'll be like, oh, get up. Whether it's on a drape or on the bed or on uh, you know, a plastic sheet or whatever it is, you know they're that sweat, stain. They're like, oh, I'm sweating and I'm like we're having a full human experience here, like, connect to that, you're bleeding, you know you're sweating.
Speaker 2:All of those things are part of this human experience and we shouldn't uh disconnect ourselves from that reality and have some type of shame about sweating, have some shame about any of those uh realities. Yes, you're gonna fart. We're sitting together for eight hours, ten hours. Somebody's going to fart during that time. Right, that's okay. Right? Yes, we're going to smell. We're going to have body odor, because we are sitting in this place very close to each other, so there's body heat. Sometimes you're leaning on someone, whatever that is. They're also going through it in terms of their own physical experience. So, yeah, I think it's time for us to step out of those experiences of shame and just live in that full human experience. That is who we are as human beings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I, and it's like it's so important right now, in this day and age, I think, to exist as human, because there are so many uh, distractions and buffers that are resistors keeping us from being human, because we work like we work well, as machines too. You know where brains are electric and stuff like that. But yeah, we're living that real, like some people are alive, other people are living. You know what I mean, that kind of thing, yeah, so I don't like it's not impossible, everybody can be living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as hard as it is, like economically and stuff like that, you know you can still free your mind from these things, you know, and separate like, okay, well, I'm not just, I don't just clock in, clock out, like I'm also, I have a heart, I have a mind and stuff like that. And it's just the age of technology. I think, yeah, that's kind of it's hard because it's such a great tool. Yeah, and being a younger person too, like I've been around technologies most of my life, so it's these things where I still have to, I'm like wait a minute, no, I still, I still bleed, you know, I still cry, that kind of thing. Yeah, but yeah, I agree, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:Does anything else? You know, kind of as we're starting to wind down from this conversation, has anything else come up that you feel you want to explore or ask or talk about? Yeah, about any of that stuff. You know that we've talked about whether that's tattooing, whether that's art.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't really think of much else. I really just want to reinforce the idea of the healing of creation. You know, of creating, becoming a creator of whatever it's like art or music. You know these things are medicine, right, and I, anybody can be practicing this, not just specifically indigenous folks.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, it can save a lot of people, and I think and and uh, that's where I want to be leading with, and that's a point that I want a lot of people to understand. Like this, you know, if you draw something really crappy with a crayon or something dude, that's where I restarted, I, when I started art. I started right at the beginning. I'm like drawing cats, like holding my crayon with the full fist, like, uh, oil pastels, and I'm just like, and then eventually, then now I'm doing like these finer strokes with oils or learning how to watercolor, shading, like that. And then I'm later on like I, because I'm developing a tattooing style or artistic, like getting my reps in learning, teaching myself, but having this side thing to do, you know whether that's even like those coloring books, because you're bringing color to life.
Speaker 1:And yeah, you know it's a meditative thing and you get to reflect on certain things and you're just kind of shut everything off for a second, and that could be. You know, whether you're messing on the keyboard or your guitar, that you don't know how to play whatever. You're creating that sound though. Yeah, you know, and you don't have to be something, and it's like you said too, we're in a time where we're always have that pressure to be perfect, yeah, and I think, like once you acknowledge that you're never going to be perfect, your life becomes so much more free yeah, you're like perfect.
Speaker 1:I don't have to perfect I don't have to go and be perfect. Yeah, you know I could just be. Yeah, and that's like. You know, that's healing in itself. Yeah, because you're damaging yourself by thinking I need to do this perfect. I was like that in school I would get less than 90s and I'm like I'm a failure. Yeah, well then my profs are like you, you got 90. What's the problem? I'm like you don't understand. It could be 100.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like, but did you retain all the information and learn these lessons?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like, yes, yeah, I did so, I just kept that in mind, and everything kind of falls in suit. You know, you take something as small as a crayon coloring a page or something you know what does that teach you? Just teaching your patients saturation, you know, don't miss any spots, like so many small things, right? Yeah uh, that's. That's about all I can. What's a an additional thing you know?
Speaker 2:no, I think that's uh very valuable and I think it also relates back to uh kind of this practice of, uh you know, ancestral skin marking and I always say, like the perfection comes in the doing and the wearing, not necessarily in the final product, right? Um? So yeah, people can take that as they wish and think over it.
Speaker 2:you know, uh see if it resonates with them and I'm totally fine with it doesn't. But those are my observations that even in those imperfect, imperfect marks, whether we're wearing them ourselves or people are wearing their own imperfect marks, they still love them, they still resonate and they still are medicine. And so this idea of perfection is something to also consider when we're thinking about our own marking and our own practice. But, yeah, I just want to thank you for coming to visit with me on the Transformative Marks. You know, taking time to share your heart and to share your experience, and I know that it will resonate with somebody. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me Through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you. Following this journey, I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love, so head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.