Transformative Marks Podcast

Chin Markings Became A Promise To Stay Sober with Gillian Prince

• Dion Kaszas

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061 A chin marking can be more than a design. Sometimes it becomes a vow you carry every time you look in the mirror.

We sit down with Anishinaabe hand poke tattoo artist Gillian Prince (Waubanungohnse) to talk about Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking, and how a practice becomes a way of living. Gillian shares how  tattooing entered their life young in a rough time, learning safety and technique, then turning toward cultural responsibility through traditional tattoo gatherings and community relationships. We also get honest about why keeping it grassroots is important, what it means to protect the marking experience, and how travel invitations from communities changed the shape of practice.

A big part of our conversation is sobriety and presence. Gillian explains how receiving chin markings became a commitment to live sober so they can truly hold space for others. We talk about trauma-informed care in tattoo sessions, how triggers can surface in the body, and why skills from mental health and addictions work transfer directly into cultural tattoo practice. We also name the hard part practitioners rarely discuss: secondary trauma, emotional energy, and how to debrief without breaking confidentiality through breath, smudge, quiet time, and making more art.

We close with joy and pride and why “perfect” lines are not always the point in hand poke tattooing. If you care about Indigenous cultural resurgence, traditional tattooing, or what it takes to do healing work without burning out, this one will stay with you. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find Transformative Marks.

You can find Gillian at: @waubanungohnse

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture

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Opening And Podcast Mission

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, when I first started, I was like, I gotta do it fast, I gotta do it as clean as possible. And now I'm trying to move away. Ah, that's cool. From that. So, like, thank you for commenting on the techniques. Yeah. Um, I appreciate it coming from you.

SPEAKER_00

The Transformative Marks Podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line, and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazis. I'm a Hungarian, Metis, and Intakutmuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral intakutmuck skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported, and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative, and spiritual work.

SPEAKER_04

Anim Boujo, Jillian Prince, or Wabanongos in Dishnikas, Matogmi First Nation in Donjiba. Um my name is Jillian Prince. My Jubai name is Wabanongos, which means little morning star. I was raised and I'm from Matogamy First Nation. I currently reside in North Bay, Ontario. Um family names are Commander, Restoul, and Ashawasigay, stemming from Nipsing, Dokies, and Henry Inlet First Nation.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, cool. Thank you. So, um, you know, since this is uh, you know, started out as a tattoo podcast um or ancestral skin marking podcast. So just kind of get you to tell me the story of how you came into tattooing, what was that journey like, and what were the steps, you know, what's the story of how you came to be here as a practitioner?

From DIY Tattoos To Practice

SPEAKER_04

So when I first started, um, I started when I was young. I'm still young, I'm only 25. Um, but when I started, I was about 17 or 18. And it just began when I wasn't like in the best place. And I like freshly moved from my reserve metogamy to North Bay for like post-secondary.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and I was like into drinking, into drugs, and I wanted like I just always loved tattoos, and I kind of just wanted them, didn't really care what I put on my body. And being like a broke student, I didn't have a way to do what I wanted to do with that. So I started doing it myself. So it started like on friends, roommates, stuff like that, which like I very much like honor those times because that's why I'm here today doing what I'm doing. Um but yeah, like 17 years old in my dorm room in college. Um and then it gradually went to getting slightly more serious about it, like caring about the safe caring about the safety and like a good way of going about it. And then I forget what year it was, but I think I was in my second year of college. Um my mom and her friend went to the tattoo gathering in Nimke Ajbucong. Ah, cool. Yeah, so they went there and I really wanted to go because like I was interested in it. Like I've to this day, like I've used the machine once, but like I've just stuck with hand poke this whole time. So my mom went there, and when she came back, she just like really encouraged me to continue to do what I was doing and learn about where it came from regarding like my people, like the Ojibwe people. And so I did, and I just have loved it. It's brought me like so much joy, so many relationships to so many places, and yeah, I can't see my life without it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, big shout out to uh family for pushing us in those good ways that we need, right? That encouragement. Yeah, um, yeah, and it's also cool to hear, you know, I've talked to a few folks, and that gathering at NIMBYASHBACON was like uh a catalyst for a lot of different movements, a lot of different things uh in the revival of Indigenous tattooing in Canada. So uh yeah, big shout out to uh Christy Belcourt and Isaac Murdoch for hosting that gathering uh because it was important work and it continues to have ripples out into uh the movement for the revival of our ancestral skin marking. So I just have to hold those folks up and give props where props are due, you know?

How Gatherings Changed Her Path

SPEAKER_00

Um so when you think about that journey, um what was it that made you go, I have to do these marks in this ancestral way? You know, because you said in the beginning it was kind of like I just want a tattoo, right? What was that transition or what was that change, or the what was the thing that pushed you to go, I have to do this in this way?

SPEAKER_04

Um so up until I guess the first year I attended the um traditional tattoo gathering in Tandanaga, I believe I went for the first time in 2022, and which is when I met you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And before that, I was still doing some like I guess you could call like mainstream tattoo tattooing, um, like still using the handpoge method, but I would tattoo like mainstream imagery and stuff. And then people more people were coming to me and asking me, like, oh, can you give me like a Joe Boy florals? Yeah, like I want bands, yeah. And they kind of helped me broaden my vision with that, as well as just doing research and learning more about the different concepts regarding it. And for a while, like I was also just strictly tattooing indigenous people, like holding space, like just for us. And a lot of people were asking me, like, oh, do you plan on like opening up a shop? Like, what do you want to do? Because I've been doing it now, like not seriously the whole time, but like on and off now for like eight years.

SPEAKER_03

It's a good amount of time, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But I never once really thought of like opening my own shop like publicly because I want to keep it like very grassroots, very enclosed. Like, I want to be able to protect people during their experiences during like the transformation of getting a marking or getting a tattoo. And I just find that like everyone's mindset is different, but for a while I was just thinking that in a lot of shops it's like male dominance, like very I don't know what the proper word is, but like very proper, and I like to be improper when it comes to like the stereotype of like going and getting a tattoo and like the conversations and the relations you have, yeah, that involves that. Yeah, um, but after I attended the gathering, um, that opened up a lot of doors for me and traveling. I have like different communities asking me to go tattoo for the people within like um specifically like Ojibwe communities, like it's very much an honor to do that work for them. Um and I've attended, I think, five tattoo gatherings now, five or six. Wow. So it's been going very well.

SPEAKER_00

When you think about the gatherings, what do you why do you think the gatherings are important for you? Or in general, however you choose to.

SPEAKER_04

They're important in like many different ways for me because like my first gathering was such a major impact on my life because I made like big decisions regarding that time. Like when I went to Tanganega for the first time, my first ever gathering, like, of course, I was so nervous, and like I knew a lot of the practitioners going, and like I've only like dreamed of sharing space with them because everyone lives so far away from each other, and growing up in a place where you don't see much of that, and or you can see it, but it's on social media, you know, like you never share space. That was very impactful for me, and then also when I attended that, I made kind of like a promise to myself. Um, so I was living, I'm gonna like I'm gonna backtrack it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Do whatever you gotta do. Where yep, we'll go where we gotta

Chin Markings And Getting Sober

SPEAKER_00

go.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, um, so a year prior to the first gathering in 2022 that I attended, I was living um in my on my reserve. And um like I mentioned, I've like struggled with addiction in the past. And uh pretty much like a year before I attended that gathering, I or wait, no, sorry, I'm getting it mixed up. Um two weeks before I attended the gathering, yeah, I decided to like live a sober life. So two weeks before that, I was still living I I thought I had moved already, but I was still living in my community. Yeah. Um, so when I was there, decided to get sober, and then a couple weeks later I went to Tindanaga, and that's when I met you, went to the gathering, and that's when I got my chin markings from you. And I don't know if you remember our conversation we had, but I kind of mentioned like the reason why I wanted to receive the markings, and a part of that conversation was that like involving the sobriety journey, and once I received these markings, it's a commitment that I have to sobriety and to maintain that to be able to do this work and hold space for people and be present for them because like my personal experience when I was like using, I couldn't be present for other people because I couldn't be present for myself.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

So ever since I received these markings in May 2022, I've been living a sober life.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Awesome. So it's been like November 1st, it'll be two and a half years.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, that's awesome. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting to hear you uh, you know, just a few things, you know, pop into my mind as we uh, you know, as I listen, and I always call them little threads. So they're kind of little threads I like to just pull on for us to just maybe explore a little bit more. So it was almost like a two-fold uh experience of um the marks, but then also realizing that to do the work that you wanted to do as an ancestral skin marker, you needed to embark on the journey of sobriety. So I was like, the marks were a reminder of the importance of the work that you're doing. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so like every time I look in the mirror, it's kind of like a reminder of like my purpose and my purpose within sobriety. Yeah. Because I honor these markings like with my being, yeah. And to like not applying this to anyone else but myself because it's my journey and my truth. But if I were to use substances while having these, I would feel like it was a betrayal to them, a betrayal to you because of how high I like hold them.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, that's powerful. When you think about the um when you think about the um, you know, uh I'm struggling to ask the question because I know that I have to uh honor uh you know uh the words that you just spoke. So I just hold those uh words, you know, uh really highly. And I honor, honor uh that commitment that you've made. And I also honor um the the way that you hold them, right? Those marks. And and I also would say that um, you know, I think I don't think that it is a unique experience. And that's why I find it so powerful that how when you actually not only in receiving the marks, but when you decide to be an ancestral skin marker, that it does something different to you because you realize how important it is, partly because of the transformation it has had for you, but also when you sit with people who are going through that experience, right? You know that you have to be there, you know that you have to be able to be present to you know what either it's like the little uh subtleties of the skin, you know, you see that skin go a little bit paler, a little bit cooler, you're like, Oh, we better check in, see how someone's doing. But like you said, if you when you're using, you can't be present and conscious in those same ways. So yeah, I really hold you up for uh taking that journey and not only that, but um you know allowing us to hear uh how that experience has changed you.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Um when you um and I would say you know, uh it's also a reminder your um your sharing of how much the marks did for you and continue to do for you is actually a reminder for me of how you know we don't know the ripples that we're gonna have in the world, right? Because sometimes you know we're doing that work because that's the work that we have to do, right? That's our gift, we have to use them, and sometimes we don't get an opportunity to reflect on how important it is, right? And so I always love having these conversations because it always wheels me back in and re-grounds me and reminds me of how important and how powerful that work is. So thank you for that gift of helping to remind me of how powerful it is, and that you know, sometimes the smallest things that we do um can have such a powerful impact.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we don't see like how it impacts the individuals when they go home, you know, how they like carry themselves after, yeah, because it is like some people from like looking service level, they don't know how impactful it is, yeah. Just to wear that and because it's for me anyway, it changed a lot of different things about my life in a very positive way.

SPEAKER_00

In 2006, I found a tiny pamphlet while getting my right sleeve done uh entitled Tattooing Face and Body Painting of the Thompson Indians. I didn't know we as IntraCuplic people had a tattooing practice. That pamphlet changed everything for me. Now, 20 years later, I've gathered friends and colleagues together who are on the exact same journey, and I've edited a collection of 18 artists from 14 different nations, all embarking on the same journey, bringing back those things which colonization tried to erase. Truly Tribal Drops, May 7th, 2026. Yeah, yeah, it's powerful. And you know, I always like to bring up, you know, um, one of the reasons our ancestors tattooed was to help guide us in in that in the world. And I would say part of it is a prayer. You know, sometimes it's a prayer, sometimes you look at those marks and you go, I gotta remember that that is my commitment. And then it's so it re-confirms that prayer, that commitment, because you have that reminder, like you say. And then sometimes it's also a celebration. You look in the mirror and you go, Yeah, fuck yeah, I'm a badass.

SPEAKER_04

That's so true, and that's why like every year when like when Tindanaga rolls around, because it it is within the month of um my sobriety anniversary, so every year I get something to like honor that. So in 2023, I got like that shin piece, um, and that was like my one-year mark, and that was very like a pivotal moment to be able to make it that far.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um and then last year was well, this year, 2024, it was pretty wild because um my sister um ended up having a baby while I was in Tandanaga. Wow. I was sad that I wasn't able to be to be there for his birth. Yeah. Um, but um the fellow practitioner um Annie, we sat down and we created a marking to honor my nephew. Wow. Yeah, so I got that while I was there. That was my anniversary tattoo.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, that is so cool. Yeah. No, and I think um, I think it is another reminder as well, especially for those folks who do the work, whether it's tie in the Nago or somewhere else, uh, another gathering, you know, uh, because these gatherings are a lot of work. They are um so holding everybody up who's doing that work of um, you know, gathering people, uh, holding space, uh, making time in their schedules, because it's not just the three or four days that people are there, it's months and months of planning. So I hold all of them up, but also um uh remind people maybe who haven't made it to a gathering, who's a practitioner, that um sometimes these spaces and these times can have uh uh huge impacts, and you'll be able to have a variety of experiences that maybe you had no idea about, right? And so just encouraging those people who are doing the gatherings, you know, uh we acknowledge you and we uh hold you up and we thank you for that work that you're doing, but then also putting it out there for practitioners that um, you know, uh take the opportunity to go to these gatherings. Sometimes it's just reaching out, sometimes it's not even going to do the work, it's just going to experience the place. Because I know a lot of people are intimidated. So sometimes, you know, um just come out and experience it. You don't have to always be giving, you can take the time to be fed by the experience, by the people that you'll meet.

SPEAKER_04

And even for me, like as someone who goes there to offer tattoos and markings, like even the practitioners out there, like we work so hard, you know, like take time to to visit with your your fellows, like embrace each other, learn from each other. Sometimes we just think we have to work so much, yeah. But I've kind of made it a thing for myself that I don't take as much during those days so I can learn from everybody.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no, I think it's uh it's a valuable insight, and I would say, you know, uh it resonates with me because I'm starting to do that myself. Yes, take more time, uh stop booking myself so much. And I would also say, you know, any of those folks who have invited me to gatherings and I haven't come, it's not because I have anything against anyone, it's just that I'm really trying to be conscious of the time that I put into the work and uh allowing myself time to uh relax because I haven't relaxed that often in my life. So starting to learn some lessons, I suppose. Um, so you know, uh, but keep asking because you know, uh you never know I'll make it there one day. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Private Studio Travel And Hide Camps

SPEAKER_00

Um, so tell me, what does your what does your practice look like? You said sometimes you travel when people invite you to places, like uh communities invite you, and then do you have a spot at home or in community that you work? And then, you know, do you get guest spot or do you any that type of stuff? What other obviously you do gatherings, but yeah, just give you an opportunity to explore what your work looks like.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um so for a while, I when I was living in my community a couple years back, um, I would do some markings in my home. Um but that's more that area, there's not many requests, but I had all my things, you know. I would just I pretty much, if I have the time and I have the appropriate space, I'm willing to do pretty much any like anywhere, you know? And I recently just moved into a home and I'm creating a studio. I'm hoping it'll be completed in November. Yeah. So I will finally be accepting like private appointments for the first time since early May. Wow. Yeah. So since then I've actually really been well, I work a lot, because I like tattooing isn't the only thing that I do. Um, but yeah, some communities do ask me to go there. Um, shout out to Hen V Inlet and Megneto on First Nation. Um, I hold them dear to my heart. Yeah. Um, especially because I have relatives in both places. Um sometimes um I did a lot of recently um lots of hide camps, like working on hides. Yeah, it's kind of like gathering style. I tattoo outside, um in a safe way, of course. Um, but yeah, but I did like three hide camps this summer. That was pretty much the only tattooing I did this summer was at hide camps. Yeah, and it's really nice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I imagine, right? Uh yeah, it reminds me of what uh NimbiajvaCon felt like, you know, uh just being there, being able to create in the in the spaces there, you know, visiting with the elders that were there, all of that type of stuff. You know, it was an honor for me to tattoo some of the elders of the camp when I was there. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Uh, pretty cool experience. Um, yeah, that's pretty uh yeah, it seems like the perfect fit, you know, in terms of what's happening in terms of the resurgence of that knowledge of uh tanning hides.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I would also say uh it's also another step in the revival of other artistic art forms, right? Because those then become the canvases for clothing, for uh, you know, beadwork, for whatever they actually end up becoming, right? It's a pretty powerful movement, I would say. And that also, I think some of it is also like helping people to reconnect with those uh animals that feed us, you know, because so often we're disconnected from those things.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and so much more of like the animals being utilized now because there's so many hide workers like coming up now. So people aren't just getting rid of the hides anymore, right? They're saving them, they're gifting them to their community. Yeah, and that's just opening doors to people who want to learn without like being so wasteful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, big time. Hey there listeners, it's Dion Casis, your host from the Transformative Marks Podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking, and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh, or you've learned something new, consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on Ko-Fi.com. Ko-Fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, Ko-Fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast. From updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, www.ko-fi.com forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. What else

Buy Me A Coffee On Ko-Fi

SPEAKER_00

do you do?

SPEAKER_04

Um yeah, I want to mention before I move on to that question, I also did like the powwow trail a little bit with Crystal. Yeah. Um Crystal Kimwan. Yeah. Uh she's a powerhouse. Yeah, big time. I enjoyed it, but for me, it is overwhelming. Yeah. And I started dancing again. Yeah. So now I dance instead of tattoo at powwow. But yeah, I shared a lot of special moments with Crystal in 2023, tattooing at Pow Wow. And yeah. And the other thing that I do is when I went to school, I went to school for mental health and addictions and social service work. Okay. Um, so I did three years of college and got my two diplomas, and currently, I'm not gonna say where I work, but I work um at a woman and children's shelter uh on a reserve near North Bay. Yeah. Um, and I love it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Being able to be in the community every day to work and make connections and just support the women and children.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I love it. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my mom for the longest time, because she uh raised all of uh my brother and my sister and I, and then went back to school. Okay. Got her social work degree, and then yeah, she worked in the women's shelter in Salmon Arm for uh many years, a couple decades. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's a lot of work, yeah, and it's important work, but I I wouldn't have it any other way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And yeah, it sounds like the work that you've done and the journey that you've taken has helped you to uh be the right fit for that work.

SPEAKER_04

And Kristen and I talk about it too, um, because she has also been involved in the social work field, um, that a lot of the things that we've learned within that is transferable when holding space with other people and like offering markings and such. Yeah. Um and honestly, for a while I didn't want to go back to social work, but I did. Yeah. Um, and honestly, like not holding one or the over the other, but sometimes I feel like the work within doing markings is just as impactful as that social work side of it. Totally. Like the way you support people is like the same, yeah, in my opinion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I think also too, in some ways, it also uh I think it allows opportunities for you to uh do the work in the way that you do it as well. Because you're not um that's not the way that you make a living, right? Is you're making a living doing something else that's r related, but it also allows you then to go and do other work, you excuse me, doing the ancestral skin marking in the way that you want to do it, and so you don't have to always um you know make sure that you're making a living off of it, right? So that I think that's also a nice uh a melding of those two worlds.

Social Work Tools For Holding Space

SPEAKER_00

Um, when you think about some of the things that you said you can find transferable when you're holding space between the social work and um and marking, do you have anything that comes right to mind?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's what I was gonna mention. Um I don't think people really realize like the the type of conversations that go on when you're offering markings and the reasoning behind individuals wanting to receive or looking out for that. Um sometimes it can be really heavy. Yeah, and if of course you don't like not you don't have to gain this knowledge of um really supporting someone through schooling, I don't believe in that at all. But for me it's helped like have good conversations with people because sometimes people come in and when they're getting a marking, sometimes it brings up like trauma triggers and they feel very almost like in a crisis, you know, yeah, and like being having knowledge of supporting someone in like that so-called social work setting. Yeah, it's really helped me kind of help people work through those feelings and be there for them and kind of have conversations, conversations to help them work through that too. Because it's it's more than just being there for them and listening, it's we're sharing words. I'm trying to help you work through that. Why are you getting triggered? Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, I'll help you. I don't want to say heal from that, but well, I guess in a way it is, but understanding.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just navigating. Yeah, yeah, when you think about um oh man, it was there, but one of those days, I guess, right? Yeah, um, travel sometimes, you know, um, even though it wasn't that far, still some I don't know. I think travel's getting way more stressful than it has been in the past, but anyways, um the oh when I think about that as well, um you know, because I definitely connect my intercutmak black work with my ancestral mark uh skin marking practice, is um sometimes it's the trigger comes from that trauma that's stored in the body, but sometimes it's just being calm and just being able to be there and uh uh let people know that it's okay to be moving through that, right? Because a lot of people get scared, a lot of people um, you know, uh find that to be a scary place, and just letting people know, even without saying anything, just by having that calm presence allows people to move through it.

SPEAKER_04

Because you're opening that space for them to feel safe and to process it how they need to, yeah, big time. And that's so important.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, big time. Um, you know, are there any other things that you can think of when you think about? Oh, actually, that was the question I was thinking about.

Debriefing Heavy Sessions With Care

SPEAKER_00

Because of course, a lot of things, a lot of times we do talk about the healing that comes through uh holding space for people. Um but a lot of times we don't talk about the secondary trauma or the emotions, the energy that we as practitioners absorb from that experience. And so I guess, you know, just maybe reflect on that if you can. And then, you know, I always like to ask the question of like, what are some of the things that you do to help you to move through and not hold that energy from that experience, hold that energy from that uh session? Yeah, so maybe just explore those two things.

SPEAKER_04

Um, so for me, be going back to that, like the field of work that I'm in, I have the capability to kind of work through it and not let it not hold on to it. Yeah. Um because I that's what I do for a living. Um, but for me personally, I without like I because I believe in even just with markings and like the conversations, there I I hold confidentiality with people because you never know what they share with you. Yeah. But for me, like debriefing, say even if it's like with my partner, like I'm not telling her exactly what they said, I'm not telling her their names or anything like that. I'm just saying like they shared this and it made me feel like this. Yeah. And I just needed to say that out loud to somebody.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And shout out to my partner for being that person for me. Um, but yeah, debriefing, um just taking a minute after, like, yeah, say you once you finish holding the space with them, they're okay to leave. Yeah, take time for yourself. Like sometimes I don't clean up right away if I don't have to. Yeah, I just sit there and just breathe. Sometimes I smudge, like get fresh air.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_04

And I find after something like that, if I'm feeling like I'm really holding on to it, um just creating more art after even helps me. Because I do like other things, like other art stuff than just like tattoos and markings. So going into my quiet space, working through those thoughts into my artwork, that helps me too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, those are those are all uh very powerful and important ways. And I think uh I appreciate you sharing uh the debrief uh piece, you know. So I think that's a a valuable thing that people can put in their toolbox, you know, uh for when uh they begin that work or start to, you know, do the work and find themselves uh working with somebody who is uh having challenges as they're going through uh their tattoo or their marking. And so, yeah, just finding somebody who is safe to share those uh things with, right? Um, who also can hold confidentiality, even though you're not sharing the specifics, still um to be able to hold that and help you to move through that. And so the two things that you said is this person shared this, and this is what it made me feel. Those are kind of the things that you share when you go into that debrief space.

SPEAKER_04

I don't because back to not sharing too much stuff, but uh I'll mention like a specific thing they mentioned that yeah maybe triggered me a little bit. Yeah, and then I'll say how it made me feel. Okay, and then they don't even have to say anything back, you know, it's just like that release, yeah, or even just I don't I'm not a journaling person, but even like just writing it down and then ripping it up after, you know, just like or say it out loud in a place where no one can hear it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, cool. Yeah, no, um, you know, and those are uh valuable insights that of course come from the work that you do that are definitely transferable and will help other practitioners because yeah, we don't always talk about that. And so um, yeah, I just wanted to open that space up so people realize that you know what it is heavy work, and when we talk about healing, we talk about trauma and we talk about holding space. Um, you know, I just want people to be aware that this is something that also happens, is that um, you know, and I would say that after my dad passed, I stopped marking for, you know, uh close to a year because I didn't have the ability to hold that space. Because, you know, uh, you know, up until that point, none of those things really uh I didn't have a personality that held them. And so, but after my dad passed, I was like, whoa, like I can't hold this. I don't have the uh emotional uh uh bandwidth to hold my own grief and then whatever they were sharing. And so I actually stepped away from marking for a year, and then I started to come back after I felt like okay, I can hold this in a good way, um, hold them and then also provide space for my own grieving. So, yeah, just interesting to, and of course, I didn't really think about it at that time in that way, but I was just like, whoa, I can't do this, right? And so reflecting on it, I think, is I I can see that.

SPEAKER_04

And at the same time of taking care of yourself, you're taking care of them, yeah, you know, so you can be present, and then on the other side of it too, there's a lot of joy that comes out of offering markings to individuals, like like the relationships that come with that, the support that comes with that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, big time. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's also uh that's valuable to bring forward as well, is just as you know, because a lot of times we talk about the healing, we talk about the trauma, we talk about those things. And actually, we were just uh uh I teach a class at NASCAD um in a survey of indigenous art history. Um and uh today we were talking about uh Inuit art and artists, and one of the readings or media that I presented was a conversation or an interview I had with Holly Nordlum, who's uh Inuit practitioner. And in that interview, Holly was like, I started marking because there's so much negative in our lives. She's like, I just wanted to do something positive for once. You know, everybody's creating art about colonization, everybody's creating art about trauma. She's like, but ancestral skin marking or our our traditional tattooing, something is just positive.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And so the marking itself is positive, but going, you know, uh some of the reasons we mark are to move through some of those things. So I think that's a really nice reframe that you've provided, which I really appreciate, to uh yeah, bring us back to like this is actually fucking joy. Right?

SPEAKER_04

It is, it's in and that's one of the things that I comment about like when people ask me why I have markings and why I do what I do, because when I when I walk out and they're showing, like people know who I am, right? They see what I have, they see my like my florals, they see my line work, they know like that's an indigenous person. Yeah, and when I wear them, like we wear them proud.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So just like what you mentioned, the permanent regalia, yeah, you know, it's um you wear them to be to be seen as a proud individual, yeah. Like you're a representation of your people, yeah. And when people look at you and they see what you have, they they definitely stop and think. And to me, that's the best thing about it. Yeah, big time. Like when I first got some of my markings, I was almost nervous about how people would first see, yeah, but that doesn't matter to me. Yeah, because I want them to look big time. Because the more that people see and the more it is revitalized, the more that it'll get out to people who need it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you know, as I always say, you know, um meeting you was a joy because it means that um, you know, those of us who started in that first wave of the revival don't have to carry as much. So it's always nice to have uh others who are coming forward who hold it in that really good way, and that actually relieves a lot of pressure from us. So I appreciate the work that you do and the way that you do it. And I'm just holding you up in that. I'm holding you up in your sobriety journey, but I'm also holding you up in the way that you hold the work, you know, uh, because it's important to acknowledge that. And last year I did a podcast and I was talking about the the young ones who are coming up and just how proud I am to see all of you doing that work. You know, it just makes it makes my heart happy to see the way that you were all doing that. And so um, I did that in a podcast, but I'm doing it in Person now, um, just holding you up for the way that you do the work and uh the way that you hold it.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, thank you. Yeah, and like shout out to all of you too, because like I said, growing up I didn't have any access to individuals who who were doing the work that you were doing, and like as a young person in this, like we look up to you, right? And when I came for the first time, I was feeling that, you know, like imposter syndrome of am I good enough to be here? Like, do I have the skill? Do I have the correct knowledge? But I learned that like everyone is just so like um kind and accepting, and you really encourage in individuals to to go about this, of course, in a good way. Um but yeah, I just want to say too, like, for every like you mentioned before, all the youngins who are coming up, don't be scared. Yeah, like it's so impactful in meeting individuals and seeing what they do. It just opens doors for you and it shows you things that you never thought you'd see. Yeah. Because it's more about just seeing it online, you know, seeing things in person, talking to people in person. Yeah, it's so different and in a good way. Yeah, big time. Yeah,

Wearing Marks Proudly In Public

SPEAKER_04

yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, I think again, that's one of the reasons why I like doing this podcast in person, because it'd be easy enough to go online and go, hey, you know, call in. But I think it's important for us to meet face to face and to spend time together and to visit in that uh in that way. And I always say like part of it is because I we always have these conversations, but they're never recorded for others to see. So yeah, just encouraging everyone to come to the gatherings, make opportunities to visit with people, you know, uh book in a tattoo, get tattooed, right? Um, all of those stuff stuff is really important. Um I wanted to uh I wanted to ask this question earlier, but we went uh another direction.

Letting Hand Poke Look Handmade

SPEAKER_00

You know, you have a very, what would you say, a very tight and refined style of work. So was that always, has that always been your aesthetic to make everything really refined and kind of perfect, I guess you could say? Or um is that something that you know it just happened that way, or like is that what you really enjoy?

SPEAKER_04

Um it's funny that you say that because those words have like and conversations as as this have stuck with me through my journey. Um so like I said, I started with like mainstream concepts and such, and without wanting to really dive too deep into before in the like traditional tattooing world. My goal with hand poke because I didn't have access to a machine, yeah, and my goal was to look like a machine, yeah, and for a long time that's what I strived for, yeah. Which is like I'm grateful because I learned lots of technique that way, yeah, and people do mention like oh, like it looks like machine work, like it's so good, and I very much appreciate those comments, but they also just like burn a hole in me because I'm like now that's not my goal, you know? Like I want people that's why sometimes I'll purposely before I would just wanted like such a solid line, yeah. Now I purposely leave those little spaces in between, yeah, so people can say, like, oh, that could that's hand poke, right? Yeah, because I don't want to look like it's a machine because it's not, yeah. And when I do my work, it's every single piece of it is pushed in by hand, yeah, and I want it to be like acknowledged as such. Yeah, but yeah, when I first started, I was like, I gotta do it fast, I gotta do it as clean as possible. And now I'm trying to move away from that. So, like, thank you for commenting on the techniques. Yeah, um, I appreciate it coming from you, yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm trying to move away from looking so perfect because when we when you strive for perfection, people ex expect perfection, yeah, and nobody's perfect, yeah. Everything we put out in the world doesn't need to be perfect because nothing is, yeah, and everything is so individual, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Big time. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting you say that. Um because it's uh I'm glad you said it, I'm glad you're moving away from it. Um because actually it's a reflection of my own experience. Because when I first started, I started with machine, right? And so for me, when I started hand poking and skin stitching, you know, I wanted it to look like it was hand poked, especially in the beginning, because I wanted people to look at it and to go, oh, what's that? Because it wasn't popular, it people weren't really doing it. Yes, people were hand poking, but not like now. And then also with the skin stitching, you can make a skin stitch line look like a machine line. Well, I can't, but there are people who can, people who you know grew up sewing, but um, you know, and so I intentionally left that dash, and so a lot of my uh skin stitching work in the beginning, I intentionally left the dash so that people would look at it, and then I always tell people that hey, I'm leaving this dash here because that's actually your responsibility. And when somebody asks you, what is that? Like, what? Like, is that gonna get finished, or you know, why does it look like that? I'm like, that's your responsibility as the wearer to talk to people about the revival of our ancestral tattoo. That's so special, and so for me, it was like, I don't want it to look like a machine because if I wanted to look like a machine, I'd use a machine, you know, and so it's kind of cool to hear how in your own experience, you know, that was your mindset was like, oh, I want it to look like that machine, I want it to look tight, I want it to look perfect, but now just through the process of doing it, you've felt that it was like, no, it's actually important for people to see that it was done by hand, it's important for people to see that it's hand poke and that you know, this isn't just like any other tattoo, these are actual ancestral marks, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So that's kind of cool. And now, like what I've thought about recently with it, because I've like I'm not trying to talk myself up or anything, but I feel like I have like an expectation now, which is unfortunate, yeah. But I have been kind of transferring it to the term of like a spirit bead. Do you know what a spirit beat is? Yeah, yeah. So when you're beating, like nothing's supposed to be perfect, right? So you put like a miscolored bead in there, yeah. And that's kind of what I'm putting my brain when it comes to tattoos, right? Like do something to where it's not perfect, you know, add a little, like with the person's consent, add a little something, yeah, like maybe a dot off to the side outside of your line. Yeah. Just so it's not perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's also a good lesson uh when I think about that too. It reminds me of um the idea of perfection and realizing that you know the things that we create are perfect, but us as human beings are also not perfect. So allowing the latitude for people to be imperfect um is also important.

SPEAKER_04

Of course, like make sure you go in it in a good way, like do what you can to the best of your ability, yeah. You know, but do it safe, yeah, do it the best you can, yeah, but yeah, don't compare. Yeah, like we spend our lives comparing our art, like as artists, yeah. It's insane, yeah. Big time, and just be your individual self because people will come to you for the way your style is, yeah, for the way your markings that you do turn out, you know? Big time. People come to you because of your individuality and your technique, yeah. So find it and rock with it. And that's just the best feeling ever, you know? Like having someone being like, Oh, I seen your work, yeah. Um, like recently, I can I appreciate messages like this so much because, like I said, I haven't been taking private bookings in like five months, and I've had a couple people message me saying, like, oh, I've seen your work, and I don't have any tattoos or markings yet, but I'll wait for you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And that's like very heartwarming. Yeah, it feels good, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, it's powerful. Um when you uh so I knew I wanted to come back to it, but I was like, okay, let's go somewhere else

Beadwork Regalia And Powwow Trail

SPEAKER_00

first. Um you had mentioned that when you uh one of the things that you do to uh you know uh process the secondary trauma or the experience of uh skin marking is you go to do other work because you do other artwork. So what are the other things that you do artistically? What are the other things that you create? Man, let's maybe explore that a little bit.

SPEAKER_04

Um so for the longest while it's been beating mostly, so I was just doing beading. Um when I first started, it was just like around little like cabs or like cabochons. Yeah. Um, and then I started doing like design beading, and then I moved into tufting. Yeah, I've attempted quill work, I'm not good at it. Um working with Intalium, and then I started sewing last year. So sewing regalia, yeah, that's been very important to me too. Yeah. Um, but yeah, beading. I like beading a lot. Yeah. Um, and then like I said, going back on the POW trail, I've been building my regalia up since for a couple years. Yeah. So that is very fun. Um, I used to like sell a lot of beadwork, but now I mostly just make it for myself and my family. Cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's awesome. Um, yeah, the one thing I uh was thinking about is uh yeah, seeing all the social media posts about uh tattooing at the powwow and something, and you know, uh again, it just seems like a good fit to be able to do that work in that place just because our people are gathered there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I like the amount of like going back to Crystal, shout out to Crystal, because of how much individuals she sees throughout the summer and like all the little seeds being planted, the little markings on everyone, the amount of markings I see and how accessible they are now is like beautiful. Yeah. Because I'm I'm somewhere, I'm out, I see an indigenous person, then all of a sudden I see a clan marking, or I see a floral, and it's just like it's so much more accessible that way, and it's so nice to see because like I said, you go out and people notice stuff like that, right? Yeah, it's showing who you are to the world, yeah, yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, but yeah, when I was tattooing on the trail, that was it was very good. I met a lot of people that way, um, shared a lot of things with them.

Family Markings And The New Old

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I the most, I guess, impactful moment for me tattooing on the Power Trail is um I tattooed my 85-year-old grandmother on the in the community she grew up in in uh Genobajing. Yeah, so all my siblings and I have uh I always like we try to do like family markings, yeah. Um, so I talked to my siblings about it, and I have three siblings, so there's four of us. Yeah, um, and she only had one child, so all of her grandchildren are like my direct siblings. Yeah. So I wanted to figure out a marking that wouldn't be too intimidating for her, something that would be very quick, yeah, that she could have. Yeah, um, so I came up with like four dots on the ring finger, yeah, and then we ended up doing it that weekend there in Kenabajing, and all my siblings were there, and my mom was there, and it was so cute because she agreed to it, and then she was like for like her whole life, she blueberry picked. Yeah, so she asked me, Can you do a little blueberry on my hand too? Oh, okay. So I tattooed a little blueberry on her hand. That's awesome. Yeah. So now she wears those, and seeing those on her means a lot. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, that makes me think. Um, you know, there's like this concept that uh my friend uh, you know, we've all talked about it, but I always come back to this saying because it's just so succinct, it's just such a perfect saying uh that encapsulates so many different things. But uh Julia Munggyao Grays from Papua New Guinea, and she's a Papua New Guinean skin marker, and Julia says that uh we are the new old. And so when I think about that, that's what I think about when you say, you know, we are trying to do these uh family markings. Because now we look at, say, you know, you talked about research, you know, I've done tons of research about my ancestral skin marking, and we're looking back and we're saying, oh, those are old markings. But today, when you say we all we're trying to do these family markings, what you're doing is you're creating the new old because in 50 years and a hundred years, family will look back and go, oh, those are just those are the marks that we always get. And they won't actually know that that's where that started. That's just the way that things become the new practices that become our old practices. So it's pretty cool to see how you're beginning to create those new traditions for your family, and those will be your family's marks as you move forward. So that's pretty cool to see how those things are starting to come to pass in our ancestral skin marking practices.

SPEAKER_04

I've been trying to get my family involved as much as possible. Um, so like when my mom did go to the gathering in M Kiaj McCong, she did get markings. Yeah. Um, she got some on her face and uh band. And uh ever since then, she's only been tattooed, like hand poked by practitioners, yeah, which is very nice. I like that for her. That's like I said, do you ever want to get a machine tattoo? Which is like still like um modernized concepts, you can still do traditional markings with tattoos, you know. Yeah, um, but she's like, No, I like what you do, and I appreciate that a lot. Yeah, so I gave my mother and father matching armbands to represent like their children. Yeah, um, me and my siblings all have like just the four of us have matching markings, yeah. And the day that we did that together, um, we did it all at once, so I did each one of theirs, and then I it just came into my head, I was like, Would you all be interested in like of course in a safe way? Yeah, um, tattooing me, like because I I wanted it as well, because it's ours, but I wanted them to make that for me, yeah. So each one of them did a little section of it. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. That's very important to me, yeah, and that just goes back to the uh the perfection thing. Like they've never practiced any sort of hand poke before, and to me that didn't matter because I it just felt so right, them doing that. Like, I don't care how it looks. What matters is that the intention is there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's you know, that's been my experience too, is a lot of my collecting has been less about the tattoo, sometimes even what it is. A lot of times it's about who it is that's doing it for me. And I'll just be somewhere and I'm like, I need to get marked, and I'll be like, hey, uh, can you tattoo me? Yeah, right. It's just like, you know, and I don't even worry about what the actual outcome or what the mark is, it's actually this experience and who that person is, and it's more about that relationship than it actually is about the tattoo itself, yeah. So yeah, it's pretty cool to uh you know hear that. It's also interesting too because um, you know, for the longest time, and probably still it's probably hard for you to not try and make it perfect when you're doing your own work, but for the longest time that had that was your goal, and now for yourself, you're like, well, actually, no, like it doesn't matter how perfect it is, you know, on your own person, on your own body. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

Cover Ups That Honor Life Layers

SPEAKER_04

And with that, I just I guess letting the letting your guard down and like for me right now, I'm in the process of like I said, I was doing more mainstream designs when I first started, and during that earlier years was during like isolation times like with COVID. So the only person to tattoo pretty much was myself. Yeah, like I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna tattoo my partner and like uh she probably wouldn't appreciate the things she has on her now if that was the case, but I'm kind of in the process of getting all of those covered as a way of like getting rid of those mainstream designs that I put on myself while I was in a kind of like a darker place, yeah, and kind of like um restarting it, yeah, but with layers, you know? And with the like shout out to people who get tattoo removal, it looks hurtful, yeah. But to me, like I want I still want those on me because they're a part of me, you know? Big time. So now I'm just covering them. Yeah. And because I've gone so many touch-up, like cover-up, sorry, in the past few years. Um I'm at the point now where even with the cover-up, I don't even care if it's fully covered up. Yeah, you know, like I'm just honoring those layers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I do a lot of blastovers nowadays where it's like uh, you know, um to cut muk black work, but I actually just had uh indigenous artists come up, uh Autham and Yuchi come up uh from Arizona and get uh blast over on her arm uh with a combination of uh Intacutmook patterns, but also patterns from her community. And we blasted over a bunch of old stuff that she had, and you can still see what's under there because of course it's a pattern, it's not fully blacked out. Um, and I think it's cool, like you say, those um those layers, honoring the layers and just allowing it to be there. Um, I think is actually uh maybe it also goes back to that idea of it not having to be perfect, yeah. Right? So, yeah, just another cool thing. Um, and I've actually been enjoying some of those collaborations of like um, you know, I do uh Mi'kmaq folks, and so I'll put Mi'kmaq patterns with uh in the Kutmuk patterns, and that it the collaboration is actually between our communities. Yeah, it's kind of cool to see and to experience. And I didn't think about doing that, but it just made sense to do it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. That's really nice, like collaborating with someone from like not from your nation, yeah, but then turning it into something that is appropriate for them. What they envisioned. Yeah. And I find that's a big thing when it comes to our work because a lot of people approach us, like, for example, me approaching you. Yeah. Like we're not from the same nation. Yeah. And moving around that is helpful. Yeah. Because we're offering each other the vision of it. Yeah. And supporting each other. Yeah. But yeah, I I and hearing of about other nations like customs and their like markings and certain things. I I love that, you know, like not using any of them as my own, of course, because I'm not like I'm a Jibboy, I stick to my own. But when people ask me to do something for them and they're comfortable with it, I love learning about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um just so as we start moving uh further down the lane here, I just wonder, is there any thoughts that come up for you that you wanted to share or any questions or any things that you'd like to explore? Um, just so I'm not grilling you the whole time.

SPEAKER_04

Um I guess like just mentioning more about the journey of it because everyone's looks different. Yeah. Um like I'm trying to figure out how to word it. But everyone approaches this art form so differently, right? Like some individual, like it's so it's so individual. Like some people come to it at a pla at a as a place of like deep ceremonial like stuff, you know, like we do this for ceremony. The markings I am giving you I've seen through ceremony, stuff like that. Some of it is just for beautification, too. Like a lot of our nations did markings specifically for beautification, yeah. Um, and just stuff like that. Um and like our teachers, too. For me, um, like I said, coming up in this young, I was like self-conscious of people asking me things and wanting to know what I know, but nobody knows everything, you know. And because I was never in a so-called like apprenticeship or necessarily taught by anyone, something that really sticks with me was I was nervous one time, I forget what I was doing. My mom was I was talking with my mom how nervous I was. I was saying, like, what if they ask me like who taught me? Yeah, and she said just tell them the land taught you. And that's something that sticks with me because it's true, like a lot of my concepts that I create are things that I've seen, yeah. Seen on different territories, seen in my community, seen on my travels, yeah, seen within the artwork. Yeah, if I go to different ceremony powow, yeah, stuff like that, the visions you see all stem from that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Big time. Yeah, and I think it uh the way I always like to articulate that is we sit in that circle because it's actually the diversity of voices, it's the diversity of experiences that make us strong. Yeah. And I would say in our practices, that's also true, right? And so just allowing for that diversity and not insisting that everything has to be the way that I do it is the way that it needs to be done, is actually very important and a very beautiful part of all of our cultures, is just allowing for that diversity in that way. So, yeah, I really appreciate that. And yeah, I think that you know, that's one of those colonial mindsets of not feeling that you're good enough, not feeling that you have enough knowledge. And I always say, too, it's like um the only thing that we have the uh ability to speak with authority about is our own experience, right? We all hear a story and we hear it differently because it's based on our own experiences of that story, right? And so uh when we truly honor that, uh, that allows for that diversity, yeah. Right. So we can be experts, but we're only experts of our own experience, and that is what I always say about, you know, I don't present myself as an expert of intracutmuk tattooing, I present myself as the expert of my experience in my journey of Indra Kutmuk tattooing, and that's what I can share.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so I like that, yeah.

Final Reflections Subscribe And Share

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I'm just excited that you uh were able to come down and spend some time with me uh talking about this work that we do. Um, it's important to be able to share it, and I always like uh lifting people up who are doing the work, um, just giving a final opportunity for any other things that you'd like to share or explore before we end off.

SPEAKER_04

I just think like general words, I guess just reach out, you know. If you're if stuff like this like really interests you, yeah, don't be hesitant, you know. Everyone's so open to conversation. Yeah, I myself am like with social media am guilty of not answering messages promptly, yeah. But just know that I see them and I acknowledge you, even if I don't reply to you. Um and yeah, just be nosy with it, you know, because I see markings resurfacing a lot, yeah. And be curious about it. We want you to be, yeah, you know, of course, in a good way, yeah. Um, be curious, but the more conversation is had about it, the more it reaches individuals who might really need that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um I had one more thing, but it it left. Maybe it'll go back 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think it's uh yeah, it's uh it's been a really good conversation because we've been able to explore a lot of different topics and you know, ranging from um, you know, that journey of sobriety and what the marks have done for us as individuals. Um, you know, when I think about uh one of the pivotal moments for me was going to Autaroa, going to New Zealand and 2015, um, you know, visiting with the Mari and all of the indigenous folks that came from all across the world to that, uh I think it was the second or third Indigenous ink gathering in Autaroa in Auckland. And uh yeah, I think you know, the when we gather and we take those opportunities, I think it helps to transform a lot of experiences. And so yeah, it was good to uh you know explore that a little bit, and then also um yeah, think about trauma, think about how we hold space, how we create those safe and sacred spaces, and then also uh yeah, how to work through some of those things. When I think about that, I asked Julia that, and I said, Well, what do you do when you're done the work and you um uh how do you deal with that trauma? How do you deal with that energy? And she's like, We dance, and so what they do for when they're done a session, they uh get up and they dance just to get rid of all of that stuff and to move that energy through the body so it doesn't sit there.

SPEAKER_05

I like that.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so yeah, and of course, there's lots of different ways that people do that, but yeah, just important to help people to realize that uh you have to do something to be able to move through those things um so that you don't get burnt out with it, right? Yeah, you know, that's part of it. Um yeah, no, uh I've appreciated this conversation.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I appreciate to you shout out and show you to you, like shout out Dion for doing this because even just posting these, and I always tell people about it too, because a lot of people ask me, but I only know so much, right? Too, and maybe they're curious about what other people have to say, and just sharing this, it shows how many practitioners are out there, yeah, and not many people know of maybe a practitioner that's like a couple hours from them or you know, in the same province or whatever, you know. Yeah, and it's giving people opportunity to have access to it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, picked up. I appreciate that, and yeah, no, I think it is part of my vision of continuing to support this work as you know, as uh my back continues to get sore and sore, finding ways to do the work and to hold it up and to lift it up and you know, uh take on less of the tattoo work, be very intentional in that way, but then also uh, you know, helping to move that knowledge forward. Yeah. So I appreciate you coming for the, you know, to visit with me on the Transformative Marks podcast. It's been a joy to sit down and to explore these things and to follow your journey as well, you know. So I lift you up and the things that you're doing, and I know that whatever comes next is gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you. I appreciate it. It's been an honor.

SPEAKER_00

Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me uh through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe uh if you haven't already done so. And if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you uh following this journey. I just want you to remember that uh no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done, or what you've been through, that uh you are amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and uh going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better uh through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings, and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it.