Gatekeeping With A Soft Heart with Jessica Coffey

062 A lot of people want ancestral tattoos but feel stuck on one brutal question: “Am I enough to wear them?” I sit down with Inuit hand poke tattoo artist Jessica Coffey to talk about the real, complicated middle ground between pride and doubt, revival and responsibility, beauty and protocol. What unfolds is a candid look at Indigenous tattooing as living community work, not a perfect script you memorize before you’re allowed to belong.

Jessica shares how she found hand poke tattooing when there were few professional pathways, why the apprenticeship debate can hide deeper barriers like racism and exclusion, and how a practice built at home can still be clean, skilled, and deeply intentional. We also talk about identity and being white passing, the shame of not knowing what colonization worked so hard to erase, and why cultural markings can become both armor and a doorway back to self.

Then we get into the hard part: cultural appropriation, who gets what, and how to protect closed practices without turning into someone who only says no. I explain my “safekeeper” approach to ancestral visual language, what I choose to share or not share, and why the face carries different responsibilities. We also touch on access in Newfoundland and Labrador, training future Indigenous practitioners, and how the meaning of these marks can evolve for today while staying rooted in relationship and responsibility.

If you care about Indigenous tattoo revival, Inuit tattooing, hand poke tattoo ethics, and cultural reclamation, listen all the way through. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway or question.

You can find Jessica at: @bespoke_poke

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts, ArtsNS and Support4Culture

Transcript

Learning Marks Through Community

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I only know so much. So there's stuff that we have to build together, and you know, then they'll end up coming and saying, like, well, my aunt told me this, or my my grandmother, my aunt told me this, and this and that, and I'm like, I didn't know that. Or someone will be like, I heard that this also has this meaning, and I'm like, perfect, thank you, because you're helping me.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line, and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, Metis, and Intacutmuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral intercutmuck skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported, and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative, and spiritual work.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

My name is Jessica Coffey. Um uh uh my online presence is Frederica Jessica Coffey. Frederica is my namesake, was my uh great Anunciax name. Um yeah, I was named after her, and she was like very pivotal, pivotal in my uh in my mother's life. Um, yeah, and I tattoo. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

So we're how long have you been tattooing? What's that journey been to coming to the place that you're talking to me?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Um, yeah, I've been I I yeah, it's always tricky telling like your origin story because everybody's is so different. And I obviously came up in a time where um a lot of the old ways were kind of being broken down, and maybe not in the in the best way, in terms of just like um people trying to break into the industry without apprenticeships and stuff like that. And so when I started tattooing, um, and I'm a hand poke tattooer, um, there really wasn't any professional hand poke tattooers. There wasn't any apprenticeships available. And at the time, um I had always like loved the idea of becoming a tattooer. I was always artistic, but I never thought I actually had the artistic ability or like the skill set to be able to like build a portfolio and go out and achieve it and then go into a shop and scrub floors and be, you know, the apprentice for X many years. I just I didn't know if I had like the strength to be able to like um withstand it. And so I just never really uh tried. And then essentially what happened was I was living in Toronto, it was 20 2015, and there was um oh goodness, somebody wants to add some yes, she just had a lot of milk, so she's she's processing that. Um but yeah, so uh yeah, 2015. There was uh there was an individual who went by home poke who kind of just started to show people that you can um sorry, her hands are caught in my hair. Um, that you can be a hand poke artist and start trying to do it professionally. Again, they were doing it from home, so there was a lot of stigma and a lot of like um people within like the traditional industry, like machine industry that were like looking down upon all of that. Um, but yeah, around that time there was just like a lot of artists and a lot of people, even I hate again saying this because I'm not trying to promote it, but at parties and um gatherings who would just want to give each other stick and pokes for fun. And um, I saw that happening and and with my insecurities, I was like, well, that person just put a smiley face on them. And that person did a heart, and that person did a star. And I was like, I know I, I know I can draw a star. So I was like, I'm I want to try, I want to try this hand poke thing. And um, I had a friend who had some just tattoo supplies, and I was at their house and I was like, Can I just give myself a tattoo? I want to see, like, I want to see what this is all about. And I gave myself one, and then she was like, That's really cool. Like, you did a good job. Like, I want one from you. So I was like, okay. And then I gave her one, and then I gave her roommate one, and then I gave her partner one, and then I was like, I want to keep doing this. And then more um, there were more uh like artists and hand pokers popping up who were kind of starting in their home, but wanting to take it seriously, wanting to make sure they were clean, wanting to make sure that they were using the right practices, um, reaching out to artists who were willing to share. Because of course, like as a machine artist, you're not looking to uh give out any any knowledge or have anyone do anything that's unsafe and then have it come back and be like, you you did this thing. Uh so either way, it was a little tricky at the beginning, but um, yeah, that's where it all kind of just started for me. And then in 2017, um, me and my partner, my fiance, uh decided to move back to Newfoundland. We're both from here.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

And there was no real hand poke scene here, no one really doing it. And I really wanted to get into a shop. And so yeah, when I came here, I was like, okay, like this is it. I'm gonna try. And then it just kind of took off from there because it wasn't wasn't very um, it wasn't here yet. And there was one other individual, um, hand poked by Danny, who had started um around the same time. Like I had been doing it in Ontario, but we kind of both were kind of coming up together in the industry here. And uh and yeah, I feel like that really helped um skyrocket like my career. Yeah. At least, you know, some big fish, small pond kind of thing. Like took I took something from the big city to the small town. Yeah, yeah.

Apprenticeships And Industry Barriers

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, well, it's always nice to come home and you know, uh come back to that place that makes you feel, you know, good. Yeah. You know, uh, but I'd also say like it's also like an interesting conversation around um, what would you say? Like a lot of people feel that way, that like, oh, I'm learning at home. And then you hear all of these, you know, especially like industry artists talking about like, oh, the home, you know, the scratchers or whatever you want to say. But the reality is that you look into the history of tattooing, and apprenticeship is actually like only a small window of what tattooing has been. Um, you know, Milton Zeiss back in the day had a an order, you know, like a home learning catalog that you could learn. Okay, you know, it was like in the back of Popular Mechanic, I think the magazine.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

No way, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

And then you look to, you know, uh, if you listen to the testimony or the story of a lot of even big names today, they'll say, uh, yeah, I started at home. I couldn't find, you know, a space or somebody to teach me. Yeah, so I just started up, and then you even hear of, oh, and so and so from the industry said, Here's some machines and stuff, I'll show you, but don't tell anybody.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, oh, it it that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

It's like interesting that like there is this push that people say, Oh, well, you need an apprenticeship, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

And I think, especially when it comes to like indigenous people, people from uh a variety of uh other communities that are not part of the mainstream, is a lot of times racism, a lot of times like difficulties come forward where it's like you or a lot of times traditionally it would be like familial, it would be like you would have your apprenticeship through your community or your family, and it wouldn't necessarily it wouldn't be an apprenticeship, it would be like rites of passage and yeah, so it's yeah, definitely breaking it down and and then having to uh yeah, just being an indigenous person and having to like approach this industry that is so um tight-knit. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, so it's just like, hey, let's make those things evident so that people can shut up, who are saying, like, oh, you need an apprenticeship, you need this, you need that. When you look out into the world of the industry of tattooing, and many of those people who are at the top now started in their home.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

And your work speaks for itself because it doesn't matter where you came from, like you can have an apprenticeship or not, but it's like, where are you now? What is your work? Who's coming to see you? Because you can have an apprenticeship and be a shit tattooer, unfortunately, and then you can not have an apprenticeship and be a fantastic tattooer. Like it depends on like your willpower, your ability, like perseverance, like all these different things. So it really yeah, it so it was, but it was really tricky at the time that I was coming into it because like like I don't know, maybe it ties into my in indigenity or um indigenousness, I don't know the proper term, but um like just not feeling worthy of doing something. So like like I like at the beginning of my tattoo career was also pretty much when I learned about like inuit tattooing and like the um the resurgence, like the slow resurgence. It was like there was um I same saying like a lot, and I'm noticing it now because I'm in an interview for on a podcast, but um This is a conversation, yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Like we're not writing an essay here, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I feel you speak I just hear a lot about the filler words these days, and everybody using the filler words, and I'm trying to.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I don't worry about it because you know, for me, in all honesty, I think that way of working and also like you're editing people's speech, so you have like all these AI programs or you have editors go in and take out words, like that's your speech, that's who you are. That's the way that you're feeling and processing, working through things. Yeah, so for me, all of that stuff is just part of it. Okay, and if somebody is listening and they can't get over the like or the long breath or the pause, that's not about us, that's about them.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah, very true, Diony.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

They've really been trained, people have been trained to expect a certain type of way of doing things, and of course, that's through industry, that's through all of these other things of like the professionalization. But no, we're just having a conversation.

Insecurity And The Resurgence Spark

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Yes, yeah, I know you don't mind. I know, yeah, exactly. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, but yeah, so around the same time was when um I like was being told by my cousin um Delilah, uh, she was she was a very, very big reason why I started learning about anyway tattooing and and the resurgence and everything, because we were, she had invited me um as a uh as a support person to um this round table meeting that she was doing because she was a part of, she was asked to be a part of the like inquiry um that was happening with missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. And so while we were there, um, and I had just been scratching, I will call it at the time. I, you know, I brought I brought tattoo supplies to a hotel room and she basically was like, This is what's happening. You should do this. I want one now, so we're gonna do this. And I gave her one in the hotel room, and the next day, like she was like showing everybody, and then it was basically like you need to keep doing this. And even even then I was hesitant, I was really nervous. I had dealt with a lot of um, and again, I I mentioned I might cry. Um, I just dealt with a lot of insecurity.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's really uh part of that, of course, is like a byproduct.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Like I didn't feel worthy, yeah. That enoughness. Yeah. We don't feel enough in a variety of ways.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

And you know, I was just doing a mental health first aid course the other day, and we were talking about like protective factors to mental health, and then um those uh I can't remember the other phrase, protective factors and risk factors. And I was looking at it, and that list of protective factors, for me, I looked at them, I'm like, oh, well, colonization was actually targeting the protective factors of indigenous people. And so that is the reality of the situation that we live in. Yeah, and I would also say like capitalism also likewise capitalizes on those insecurities, those fears, all of that stuff. Definitely, so you know, it's just such an interesting place to be in. So, you know, that's a that's a common thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, right? Like, yeah, it really is. And doing this and doing more um traditional tattoos has put me in contact with so many people and hadn't put me in situations with so many people where we got to open up and realize how similar our journeys are. And I have I have people who come in and get just regular tattoos from me, and then kind of we get into the conversation and I'm like, Are you in? Yeah, and they're like, I had to have it in you. And then I'm like, Would you ever get a traditional tattoo? And then they were like, Again, they go into the insecurities, they're like, I'm not ready. I don't think that it's for me right now. Uh, and a lot of people, and then I'm here convincing them why they should go for it when I'm still hesitant. Like, and I I have um some birthing tattoos, those are my pretty much my only cultural tattoos that I have right now because I knew that I wanted to start a family. Um, but I am have still been taking my time before I I choose to receive um any of the other markings. And I do know what in my mind what I feel like the next steps are gonna be like that for me. But I still want to like tread lightly because it's like how I feel internally. I want it to match up with what's going to happen externally. Yeah. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

No, that totally makes sense. And I think, you know, there's also like an interesting piece there. Uh, I think like, especially around like, oh, well, I'm just learning about our ancestral tattooing, right? So there's like shame there. Yeah it's like, well, why I should know this? Like, why don't I know this, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

And and how much should I know before I can get the thing or do the thing? And is it enough? And is there an end to that? Because like everyone's like, you you you are a well of knowledge on this now. And I'm like, no, I still learn so much from from the people who come in and I tattoo. And a lot of times when when I'm when I'm helping create these tattoos for my clients, um it's like a a shared input because they're coming to me saying, like, I don't know what any of these things mean. And I'm like, I only know so much.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

So there's stuff that we have to build together. And, you know, then they'll end up coming and saying, like, well, my aunt told me this, or my my grandmother, my non stuff told me this and this and that. And I'm like, I didn't know that. Or someone will be like, I heard that this also has this meaning. And I'm like, perfect, thank you. Because you're helping me, because I I am very like reserved, yeah, and I don't um I don't get out often. Yeah. So so it's it is nice when when stuff organically comes as well, because I I do feel a bit of shame and and almost not like jumping into it as well as much as maybe I see other people.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah, I think it's interesting too, like in a good conversation and a good place to like think about how the work that we do is creating that community and is creating that knowledge. Yeah. Right. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast is because so many of us have a wealth of knowledge. Yeah, and part of that is just from visiting, just somebody coming, you know, they bring their auntie or their grandma or whoever, and you're just sharing it's like these little gems just get dropped, right? 100% on the floor of your tattoo shop, and you just get to pick them up, right? Yeah, it's just such a powerful reality of the resurgence of our work, is actually through doing the work.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

No, exactly. I agree 100%. Yeah, it's been it's been really a very complex journey, and I'm sure yours has been very similar.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Um, where yeah, you just take it day by day, and then there's a day that comes by and you're like, oh no, I I I am doing this and this is going well, and and something has been started, something has started here. And um, yeah, I I didn't really I don't know. I I feel like my whole life I've been battling with ego. And I feel like a lot of that has also had to do with like me um pulling back and like being nervous about even like um doing interviews or like talking about it, or like because I again I don't always feel like I'm the voice that's supposed to be doing it, even though I just happen to be the person that's that's doing it and I am within the culture. And so like there's so much of myself that's like trying to rationalize it and be like, no, you are you are meant for this, but then there's so much holding me back, and then there's all this like I feel like someone else deserves like to be in a spotlight in terms of like what the discussions are, and and so uh I've just kind of been always like battling with myself because I I don't feel like yeah, like I don't know, I don't know where I'm going with this, but there's just been this like the yeah, this like long internal struggle.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, no, I think that's normal, you know. I think I don't think you're alone in that reality. Um, you know, I think a part of that is also like what the political climate, the way that things are in our world, all of that type of stuff, which is like for unfortunate, right? And the way I always think about these podcasts is even though maybe people aren't necessarily positioned as like the most authoritative in their practice, it's like what little gems do you have that might help somebody who's in the same place that you're at? Yeah, right. So I'm not asking to people to like be the expert, I'm asking you to share, let's share your journey and let's see where this conversation goes. Yeah, because there might be one gem, you know, even about like those feelings. Like that is a gem, that is a gift, you know. When you share those things, those are gifts for people to go like, oh, I'm not alone.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So that's really what all of this is about. Um, so yeah, I appreciate your willingness to share those things and bring them forward because those are just as much a part of the work that we do as the physical tattooing.

Identity, Beauty, And Taking Time

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Uh yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah, and I remember, I remember I had a client and like she came in, and ironically enough, and this happens with a lot of my clients, they found out we were related somewhere down the line in some way, shape, or form. Um, and uh uh yeah, I remember her talking about how um her sister looked a lot more inuk than she did. She's like, you know, I don't really feel like I look anyway, and I'm really insecure about that. And and then she told me this other story about how when she was really young, she used to be called schemo. And I was like, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

I was like, Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

I was like, I was like, it was like take that as a compliment now, you know, like see that as like that that trauma from the past where where you were in a community where everyone else was white, like and it was noticeable that you were a bit different, and now we're in this new generation where you're not feeling um enough. And I was like, but that shows that you are because because it it it you can see it. And now people want to reclaim that too, and I think that's really beautiful. And and I've dealt with that because I'm like, I'm very white passing, and I'm like, I'm looking at this person, I'm like, you're beautiful. Like you, yeah, I was like, I saw it in you the second you came in here, like like like wear that with pride. And then when they got their markings, it was just like I was like, you look incredible, like this was meant for you. And that happens a lot with the people who come in, like they're a little nervous and they're just like not hesitant, but just it's it's a big buildup. And then once they finally get their markings, like it's as if they've always been there. And and that like goes like that surpasses again, like um, like how people like are um the how their appearance is visibly, because again, like I, you know, it goes across the board um because we are in a different time and I there's settlers DNA and um almost all of us, not all of us, um, but you know, we're kind of getting there. And so there is a there is a a part of us that has to reclaim um and feel okay with knowing that like you're reclaiming a portion of yourself and that's okay too.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

And that's another reason why like I'm taking my time with my markings because I'm like, I am more than just that. I'm more than just um Inuit, I'm more than just my Irish background, just found out I have Portuguese in me through my mom's side. Like, yeah, like she didn't know who her father was. He was an American soldier who was stationed in Hope Dale.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Wow.

Safekeeping Versus Cultural Appropriation

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, and then planted a few seeds, and then there was a long journey of not knowing who he was, finally found his family. Sadly, he had passed, but um, through all that, even sorry, even through that journey, like which is a very shared experience with a lot of indigenous communities, is yeah, is just there's there's so much mystery, and and it's okay to be um a little in. limbo with that and then be okay with that and be okay with um even just like some of the markings that I do um it is like you know in the past a lot of them in in a lot of uh our communities although there were meanings a lot of it was for beauty and beautification and it was just like you saw a woman and you were like she looks good that looks beautiful yeah and so uh so even with that it's even in today's day and age when people are a little uncertain I'm just like it's okay to want to look beautiful and if you feel like that's for you then like let's go for it. Yeah um I find a big a very tricky thing for me to navigate though is um because of like the dilution of some of our cultures and and people not knowing where their ancestry lies. You have people who want to get tattoos who aren't fully aware or or don't even know if they are and I have to like navigate that either with them or for them and and I find that to be really tricky because I don't want to be a gatekeeper.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

And then I have other people in the community being like you need to be a gatekeeper. So I'm like I don't know what to do uh because I have had people reach out who are not in it and they're like can I get this I I well I I've traveled here and gotten these tattoos and traveled here and gotten these tattoos.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Can I travel here and now get these tattoos and I'm like no we've only just got these back like this it's different. It's it it's it's a different uh it's different when you're trying to explain like close practice within cultures uh as opposed to like going to Thailand yeah and just getting a Thai tattoo, you know? Um so yeah how how has your experience been with that? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah um you know it's interesting because for me uh I was just talking about this yesterday uh with Janelle and we were you know I was talking about this insistence that we have to make it what it was but for me I'm less interested in what it was I'm interested in what it is today and what it's going to be in the future. Yeah right um so when I think about that I always think about it yes I am uh I like to use the phrase a safekeeper right yeah uh not necessarily a gatekeeper but sometimes I have to be a gatekeeper. Yeah close the gate on some people yeah but a safekeeper of those the these treasures from our communities inheritances yeah uh but the real in 2006 I found a tiny pamphlet while getting my right sleeve done uh entitled Tattooing Face and Body Painting of the Thompson Indians. I didn't know we as intercutbuck people had a tattooing practice. That pamphlet changed everything for me. Now 20 years later I've gathered friends and colleagues together who were on the exact same journey and I've edited a collection of 18 artists from 14 different nations all embarking on the same journey bringing back those things which colonization tried to erase truly tribal drops May 7 2026 I talk about it in terms of rights relationship and responsibility so of course part of the question you're asking is like how do I um share when I don't know yeah so that's really about the relationship that person has to the marks but for me I think well I'm the one with the relationship with the marks right so I'm allowed to give them marks that I feel are appropriate for them to have from my community and my culture. Okay yeah and some of those marks from my community I'm like yeah I'm not gonna share the Sun Man design from the pictograph stories because those are connected to very much stories. And um then I look at uh some of the other patterns and I'm like no you can't have those patterns those patterns are for us or combinations of patterns even.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Right? But I think then I think yes there is opportunity for us to share but of course none of that has to do with the face the face is fully reserved for us right um and then you know just picking places that I know that we wouldn't have ancestrally tattooed those designs or even scale right so that's why I do infacatlook block work these big huge pieces because we wouldn't we never tattooed that big so you can't mistake that for an ancestral mark. Okay yeah right but you can look at it and go oh that's infacetmook or interior salish because you can understand the visual language so it's like finding these interesting ways to use those things in the present and the thing that the example I give is because a lot of people say like we have to gatekeep all of this but it's like you look in those times just after uh colonization or contact you know uh my people are known as beautiful basket weavers right but then you look into the collections of museums or you know curio shops or whatever and there's these beautiful coffee tables right that are woven in our ancestral style of weaving yeah so that's an example or you look into the Mi'kmaq history where it was the quill work was for basketry.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah but then you look and now they're on seats right seat backs and seat uh cushions and so that's an example of using your ancestral visual language our ancestors like an evolution of it yeah and so it's an example of our ancestors going hey I gotta make a living yeah so I and that's a really cool way to incorporate yourself into modern society in a way and to show like well knowing where it came from I want everyone to know now that that's where those that they where they came from um yeah that's really that's really interesting. I really like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And then you think I think about like the when I talk to a lot of my Mari friends who yeah they tattoo like anyone who comes to them. Like they have full studios that all they do is moco. But there's certain combinations of designs that they don't use because though or certain patterns because those are for specific Giwi or specific tribes yeah they use some of the more general ones and put them on people right and my friend uh Julie says it's important for us to do that because people want it and they're going to get it so we should be the ones doing to fill that space.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

That makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

But I think part of it is like coming to it within yourself to go like okay these are the things that I'm gonna safe keep these are the things that I'm gonna gatekeep. Yeah and then these are the things that I'm going to share and just being okay with that.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

And going like hey these are the things that I'm not sharing so you know but these are the things I am sharing and these are the reasons why.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Because people want them and I would rather give that give that gift to those people instead of uh they're going to an American guy from Denmark doing those marks.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Right? So it's like no we we can take control of that you know you look to the historical record like those baskets that are um coffee tables that's our ancestors saying this is our gifts our inheritance but I'm gonna use it in the contemporary time.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Yeah one thing that I had like a place that I had come to with it um was if you're not indigenous and you you're not Inuit and you come to me um asking for cultural markings I usually tend to go down the route of like if you appreciate the culture like I'll tattoo some gummocks on you I'll tattoo an Ulu I'll tattoo a polar bear a seal like let me find something within that like represents our culture but isn't necessarily our cultural markings. Totally because it it was only in the past um I say 20 years. Cause I know um Alethea did her documentary Tune it and um I remember in an interview she was saying um you know she was really hesitant to release it because she was really scared of like like um starting cultural appropriation like having people like other non indigenous people see it and then think oh I like that I want to go get that and she was worried about more non-Indigenous people non-innuite people having it then anyway and then where that went was she took her time and then ended up releasing it later. But with that it had come to a place where she was like okay enough people have gotten it where I feel better about that. And then even Hovok Johnson um had talked about uh well right now it was mainly women who had it and we're not opening the world up we're not opening it up to men yet and of course a lot of men are getting tattooed now which is really beautiful my brother really wants some tattoos by his eyes which I'm like so down to do for him when he's ready. He has no tattoos at all. Yeah so um that would be really cool. So yeah there's like there's a lot um within all of that that I that again goes in around around in my head where I'm just like yeah where are the limits um and I know like I've seen a like I had a tattoo come to me and they wanted um a line down their chin. Yeah um and they had not even thought about cultural tattoos at all. They were like I think it's really cool. I want to line down my chin. And at the time I was like I don't feel comfortable doing it because I'd only done like a like a couple of chin lines for like others within my culture. And I was like I feel like there needs to be more time and I I don't know if I feel comfortable I don't even know if you know this information. And then when they heard about it they want they kind of retreated a little bit and uh yeah I I find that that's been the hardest thing for me because sometimes like there are individuals who do come to me and they just don't know anything. They don't know if they're inok they don't know if if they're Miguel they're like I've been told I have something down the line it's been lost and I have a lot of empathy for that. But then there's a part of me that's like but I I don't know if it's right to give you my cult cultural markings if you don't know but at the same time I know you're searching for something and you're lost and and I wish I could help bridge that and I just sometimes I don't know how and I've I've actually like behind closed doors just been in like inner turmoil like gone through like turmoil and like shed tears and had moments of just like I don't know what to do for this person and and I wish I could support them in some way and and I don't know how.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah yeah yeah and I think yeah that's it the you know by hearing all of those things it just makes me uh you know uh I just lift you up to uh and acknowledge that those marks are in the right hands because of the way you feel about them right and so I would say that take that to heart and know that whatever you decide you're doing that through that reality right because it's true just the way you're talking about the way that you feel about it the way that you're trying to work through it shows that you're holding it with that preciousness that it's deserved. So when you make that decision feel good in that decision because you have held it like you know how press it is yeah thank you. So when you hold that stand firm in it and know that you made it within like the pressure cooker of that precious treasure.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah it it is it really is precious and um yeah sometimes I do feel like a lot of weight in in holding that because um yeah I've even wanted to like take on individuals like take on apprentices for um because I had an apprentice for just hand poked tattooing um not indigenous I I didn't feel ready to take on anyone and um and I had always thought like okay the next apprentice I'll take on will be indigenous and there have been a couple of people who've come to me who I obviously 100% feel are worthy of passing this on to but I haven't either been in the right emotional state or the right state in time. I've been preoccupied and um and I I feel like even guilt in that and not being able to like pass this on quicker than I like sooner than I um wanted or sooner than the word right now. Yeah it just hasn't happened yet yeah I'm a new mom there's mom brain I'm not a new mom I'm I'm a two years deep but they got a new one and and they say mom brain is a thing and I'm just gonna lean into that um but yeah and and I find that very complex and then you know I'm here in Newfoundland and then and then I go through these motions of being like okay well if I if I if I do pass on the skill set and the knowledge that I do have I I I feel like it needs to be in Labrador. And like I was born in Happy Valley Goose Bay and um I feel as though um it would be nice to go back there and be able to take on someone there. But I with my life and everything going on because when it comes to like Newfoundland um I don't think that um there shouldn't be another um indigenous tattooer here like another Inuit tattooer here. But I feel like the need is in Labrador because a lot of the clients that I have who are getting cultural tattoos are coming from Labrador. And it's usually like they're coming to see the doctor you know because that's because flights are just astronomical and they're like this is my chance and they'll reach in and I'm like let's make it happen. And it's always devastating even when I can't make it happen or something's going on. But um you know it's my the cultural tattoos I do are speckled throughout just the regular tattooing regular career. And so I feel like if somebody was in Labrador that would make a lot of sense and and I've talked about doing trips through Labrador and I recently um did uh a youth symposium in Hopedale which is where my grandparents live um and that was my first time actually getting to go there since I was a like very young child and see them. So that was really really amazing and it all happened serendipitously because they had reached out to somebody else they couldn't make it um uh and then they reached out to me and I was like oh per they're like do you need a hotel and I was like actually my my Nat sucks there and um my dad suck there and my cousins are there and my uncle's there and they were like okay well great you have somewhere to stay we'll we'll you know we'll forward funds to them but uh it just seemed very like meant to be and uh and then through that um some of the individuals there were like we're trying to get funding and we want to like try and get you back and I'm like please please get me back please send me around I would love to just go through Labrador and be able to visit like all the communities and be able to do more tattoos because I wasn't even able to do any cultural tattoos when I was there. It was more so just like uh temporary tattoos just a quick session. Yeah um and uh and yeah and then the day that I left they went on dog sled and uh caught a seal and spin it and I was like why why did you do that after I left I wish I could have been there. There was it sounded just like a really amazing event and it was really cool to be a part of it. But yeah so I would like to do that but at the same time I I feel like there needs to be like more more accessible yeah to to them.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Yeah but I would just say you know uh trust the process right like that's the that's just the reality of like um you'll know yeah when it's the right person the right time yeah and it'll happen the way it's supposed to happen. Yeah yeah uh that would just be my little gem because I have felt those feelings before myself yeah in terms of like oh you know whatever it may be is like oh I gotta get that done oh why isn't this happening you know for example I have one bodysuit left that we have like maybe a day or two left to finish right we have like the butt cheeks and then kind of up on the hips. Yeah and I'm just like you know like maybe probably two days maybe three days just because of where it is it's gonna be so sensitive.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah you never know. Yeah so it might be a little bit longer maybe four days who knows your client might be like hey yeah because yeah the the the glutes the butt that's very spicy spicy spot people don't realize they actually have no idea a lot of people don't know it's like oh I got so much padding there but it's like there's lots of nerves happening so many like have you ever dealt with sciatics?

Marks As Responsibility And Continuum

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah yeah so for me it's like yeah just being okay with that process and letting it happen and I would say that uh one thing that came to mind as you were talking as well as like that journey sometimes okay there's two things. The first thing is like the marks are the journey of coming to the tattoo being tattooed and then living with it. So it's like a continuum of that journey. A lot of times we think of oh it's just the the the mark that's left of the experience but it's actually the journey of coming there. Yeah and for some people receiving the marks is where they actually start that journey of finding who they are right so something just interesting there to uh just put out there you know what's something to consider is like you know sometimes that uh receiving those marks makes them go oh shit okay people are gonna ask I got to make sure I know and so that really starts them on the journey of finding out well how am I really connected to these who am I really right because that's part of the process of colonization was to erase our identities and our connection to our lands and our people. And so when we get those marks we're like oh okay now I have a responsibility to these marks.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah. I know with a lot of like again white passing um uh Inuit who have come and gotten tattooed by me for them um being so connected to their culture and growing up within community and just having this moment where they're like I need people to know yeah I'm like I'm done like just not showing anything or having people misrepresent me. I'm I'm ready to just like put these on me so that like it's not an it's not um a question.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah it's just this is who I am yeah yeah yeah for sure and I would say you know I always bring up my friend uh Amy Mulbuff who's like you know when people look she says when people look at me they look for everything else except an indigenous woman right they're like oh well you're Italian or you're this or you're that or you're whatever but they never think oh well you're a creme tea woman yeah right and so she's like no I'm getting these marks so that when they look at me they know automatically who I am yeah right so I think that's a common reality in this time and space. Yeah and that's why I say it's like beautiful for us to for us to have these conversations because that is what they need to mean for today. So a lot of times people ask well what does that mean? A lot of times I'll say you know they're just a a mark of the resilience of my ancestors.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

And in the contemporary time maybe those marks for that woman are that these are just to identify me as who I am. And that is just as valid as it was in the past. Yeah the reasons our ancestors tattooed because they didn't have to worry about their identity. No so why would you mark yourself for that reason? Oh exactly yeah that what exactly yeah yeah so we're really taking the opportunity to redefine and use these marks for what we need them to be in the present.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Yeah I completely agree and I feel like um that that I've I feel I feel as though that conversation comes up a lot again when I'm tattooing in the sense of of individuals feeling like they need a meaning for everything and they need everything to be a certain way. And I'm like you are more than just your ancestors. We are in this this new time and there's no going back there's only going forward and we're we should be able to make this what we need it to be now.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

So yeah that that resonates a lot.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah yeah and I love how also too you uh you're very insistent on like these are beauty marks and that's okay that's good because yeah I think so many times we try to make things so spiritual yeah but I think feeling beautiful and feeling good about yourself is just as spiritual as any other thing. Oh yes right the way that you feel when you look in the mirror that is a spiritual act. Yeah right so beauty is something that we can't forget because we feel like because of the processes of colonization and the insistence on hypersexualization all of that stuff we put down beauty but beauty is different than sexualization. Yeah right and so It's like, no, let's let our people feel beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Especially when when there was just so much making not to feel beautiful. You were different. You were othered. You were your skin was darker. Like there was so much to it that so many people like even today, like it's trickled down in in so many communities of like, you know, looking in and like not loving what you see in the mirror. And and I think that being able to reclaim something that makes you feel beautiful again 100% is the like one of the most important things because there's so much beauty in so many of the cultures around Canada, around the world. And yeah, yeah, it's really unfortunate that some people I feel are so hesitant because again, they just don't know all the specific things or meanings. I'm like, they didn't have sp always have specific things or meanings. So yeah, you don't have to worry too much about that. And I have clients who do have a meaning for every line, every dot, every dash, every every single part of their tattoo is a part of their journey, and that's incredible. And then I have others who are like, this is just what I want, and this is what I've drawn up for myself, and this is what I feel like will make me feel good. And I'm like perfect.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

This is who I am. That's enough.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

This is me.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Yeah.

Media Attention And Tokenization Fears

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah. I think that's yeah, such a powerful statement. I really appreciate you uh coming and taking the time to chat with me because I think, you know, uh your experience is really valuable for people to understand and to hear and to think about. Um yeah, it's pretty cool to uh, you know, I think we've talked a few times online here.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

I feel like it was really interesting because um I feel like it's nice because doing the interviews and like CBC and stuff like that did um bring like my work to a broader audience. But there definitely were moments where I was like felt really insecure about it. I felt like I was like, I'm like one of the whitest indigenous people out here, and I feel tokenized by these people, by like this system. And I felt like they only reached out to me because I'm a woman and I'm indigenous and I'm doing a a thing that something that's very niche right now. And um, and I might be again me underselling myself because it's just like story of my life, but um, but it does like I need to like take a step back sometime and be like, you know what? No, it it made a lot of really cool connections happen. Yeah, I feel like it it opened a lot of doors in other places that I never thought like again, like this symposium that I did recently that reached out to me probably wouldn't have if I hadn't, you know, done these things and uh yeah, and I got to meet you and now we're here, it's really very, very cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

No, it's always good to uh say yes to some of those things, but also to say no to some of those things.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Um, but yeah, no, uh I'm saying mo no to more of those things unless the person is indigenous. Um and sometimes even with documentary crews now, it's like, well, okay, maybe your director is indigenous, but how many of the people who are on the crew are indigenous?

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Right?

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Because sometimes you'll have an indigenous director, but it's like everybody else is non-indigenous. Yeah. Come on now, you can do better.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

Yeah, there's probably a little more incentive needed. Yeah, I feel that.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah, no, and I of course, you know, sometimes that's also uh not putting myself out there, but I'm okay with that because I just want to start people.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah, I feel like you've earned it to be able to like set your lines and your standards.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Yeah, I just want to lift more of our people up, more indigenous folks, and uh, you know, give that opportunity for them.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Um, yeah, no, and I think uh yeah, this has been a really good conversation. Is there anything that comes up for you in terms of questions, ideas, thoughts? Uh is there something when you're uh thinking about this conversation that you're like, oh, I want to talk about that? Um, I always find like when I'm driving away, it's like, I wish they would have asked me that question.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Yeah, I feel like there's a million things and like no things at the same time. Um yeah, I don't know. I I I think my whole journey with this has pretty much been just the imposter syndrome of it. And just the imposter syndrome, not just of being indigenous and doing cultural tattoos, but just in the tattooing world, being a hand hook artist and having to forge my own path and like earn respect and the time that it takes to like it's it's like that cliche. Like, I I came home, I started tattooing. Um, I was trying to earn the respect of all these like machine tattooers around town. And then when I finally earned the respect, um, I realized I didn't need it.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

You know, and I was just like, oh wow, like I actually I didn't necessarily and a lot of these people who it's really funny, like who probably at first were just like, no, we don't want you in our shop, like um didn't even reply to me when I like reached out to try and like join their shop or something. Um now we have conversations and it's like best kind. And I'm like, I completely understand why I had like almost zero portfolio. I was coming from Toronto, I was hand poking out of my house. I completely understand why you didn't want to take me, but I also made it work anyways, and did find the people who wanted to to help at the time, and and that was really good. And um yeah, I don't know. It's uh in terms of like yeah, questions and stuff, I find um yeah, I find it just like I end up blanking and I'm yeah, and I'm just like, hmm. And then I also end up leaving, being like, I wish I had said this or that or especially now that I gave you the opportunity. Yeah, I'm like, oh now my mom brain is just fried. Yeah.

Conventions, Community Focus, And Belonging

SPEAKER_00 49:50

No, I think uh it's also too. I find uh it's been a common theme in many conversations where it's like, and I've had it myself where I'm like, say at a convention or uh, you know, a Western convention or uh out in the world, and I'm just like actually these aren't my people. I'm not actually here for that booth or that booth or that booth. I'm actually here for the people that are coming to see me. You know, I'll be in a convention and maybe there's one or two of us, indigenous, maybe there's the Tahitian guy or you know, somebody uh from another part of the world, Polynesia, the Pacific, and there's only two of us. And so my booth ends up all the natives come, right? And so it's really I have to remember when I'm doing the work, I'm not actually here for those industry people. Yeah, not that saying that I wouldn't, I don't have friends in the industry, yeah, et cetera, et cetera. But I have to remind myself that I'm actually here for those people who are coming to get the work. Yeah, those are my people.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah, I feel that. So I definitely feel that. I haven't done any conventions, um mainly because I just feel as though the in like it's just so high stress, yeah, and and the energy is really intense, and um, that didn't happen in the summer, and sometimes ventilation isn't always good, and like there's always like so many factors. I've also like been tattooed at conventions where like people have walked up to you and then you're like forced to have a conversation with them because you and your tattooer can't go anywhere. Yeah. Um, and we're just like, okay, bye. Um, yeah, just like the kind of on display aspect of it is very um intimidating. I have like tattooed at events, yeah. Um, but yeah, I do I do feel as though I'd probably get a little insecure around all the other tattooers as well, and feeling like I need to show face or something and and say hi to everybody because I'm just like that kind of person where I'm just like, am I gonna give this all these tattooers a hug right now? Because I feel like I I need to. And I also just like end up awkwardly giving people hugs all the time because I I'm like I can't shake someone's hand. I don't know, it's it's just an issue I have. Um but yeah, I I I think that's really cool. Yeah, I I I resonate with that. Honestly, this symposium that I did um in the spring was the first time I ever left my son.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

And I had just found out I was pregnant with her, and that was the first time I'd ever traveled, and he was still um breastfed at the time. I was weaning him, and uh I was really nervous because it was only for a couple of days, and then it was also just leaving my fiance with him for a couple of days um completely alone, and and there was just like a lot of uh a lot of stress with having not left like your first child. And then now with two, and then her being so young, I'm just like things do get easier when you have a second though, because you're like, I've been through the motions, yeah, like I do, yeah, like I kind of know what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

And this is was one of my dreams as well when I started the revival work for my community, is having our kids just grow up in a practice as opposed to growing up or working in a revival, right? And so there's a time now where Echo's kids will never think of a time when there wasn't our tattoos, yeah. So that's like the first generation that this is just what we do, yeah. These are just our cultural marks, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:25

My mother always talks about me doing them for her, and I just I don't know when she's finally going to like bite the bullet. Yeah, but um, you know, my my my children refer to her as an Ansiak, and she uses as many uh innocent words as she recalls. Of course, she lost a lot of her language. Um, but whatever she does know, whatever she does remember, she's constantly using with them. And I'm trying to like mimic her, mimic that, and um and yeah, even just yeah, it's really cool to think like with these tattoos, and I I'm sure by the time they're older, I will have more of the markings. So it is something that I do plan on doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

I've just been um yeah, I've just been taking my time, easing into it, easing into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Um but I I already like well, funny enough, I had a chess piece design for myself that I was gonna get after I finished breastfeeding my son. Yeah, but before I could finish breastfeeding him, I was pregnant with her. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll wait. It's not time yet. And um, for me, and I I don't think that it's always necessary for people to share meanings. I know some people withhold meanings, some people are very open to share. But um, for me, I just to share, um, I felt like my chest piece was just like aren't gonna be armor.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Because I was like, I have these kids now, yeah, and I know that I've always been like a protector and that I've always had it in me to like, I've never been in a fight, but try me. Because I I feel like if anybody like comes for somebody that I care about, my friends will tell you. They're like, if anybody ever comes for them on the back end, I've never approached anyone that's ever hurt a friend of mine. But if they wanted me to, yeah, um, I feel like I could really stand my ground. But yeah, so I feel like uh so does it say fuck around and find out? Yeah, fuck around and find out in the syllabics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would actually be sick. I feel like I should do that now. Because no one will know except for yeah, indigenous. Yeah, I'm I'm actually gonna consider that. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Yeah, no, uh, yeah, it's a it's a it is a journey, right? To uh the right time, the right person, the right place sometimes even.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Finding the right person has been hard for me.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

I got my I got my um uh I had my birthing tattoos done with machine complexity and my emotions around that too. Yeah. Um, because I trusted them with it. Yeah. And they were not indigenous, but they're a very um kind soul, and I knew that that these these issues mattered to them. So I was like, you know what, I feel like you're the right person. I trust you with this. And you know, there's it's okay to also want your tattoos to look a certain way. Yeah. Like I have a very clean um aesthetic to my tattoos. I do very I've I've taken me a long time to get there. Again, I feel like I wasn't looking at the camera until now, but I feel like it took me a very long time to get there.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

Yeah.

Tools, Authenticity, And Personal Aesthetic

SPEAKER_02 56:19

Um, a lot of just um being hard on myself as well and just striving to do better. Um, but I've achieved very crisp lines. My goal was always to fool people, yeah. To to have people not know that it was hand poke, but then be like, oh my god, that's hand poke. And I've achieved that and that's great. But not everybody even wants that when they get their when they get their cultural tattoos. Some people want a bit of ruggedness to it, and some people search for me because they were like, I want my my cultural tattoos to be very clean and crisp. And um, and for me, that's also how I want my tattoos to be. But in terms of like um, yeah, trying to find that around me, it's really, it's you know, very, very difficult. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Yeah, it's an interesting conversation too, around uh the uh tools and technology. I always talk about it and I always talk about it in terms of like flattening that hierarchy of authenticity when it comes to our tools because uh again, we're contemporary people living in a contemporary time. Our ancestors used rifles as opposed to our ancestral tools of subsistence and survival. So we're using rifles, right? So our ancestors took that opportunity to move into this other uh use uh example. But I would say that it's just using the right tool for the job, as opposed to that's not authentic, that's not true.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Yeah, it's because if you see images of of like um, if you see the the archival images of like the Inuit tattoos, like they're not clean lines, you know what I mean? They were they were just stitching them in and hoping for the best, you know what I mean? And it and it looked amazing, and so I I completely respect and understand that people are still looking for that authenticity. Yeah um, but yeah, I'm like I've I've come to this point, this is what I do, totally, and yeah, I'm using sterile equipment, I'm not using like sinew and soot.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Well, yeah, I mean the those tools would have a different like you wouldn't be able to achieve those necessarily with those tools, right? Because you're creating the bone tool. Yes, I've seen uh because you said you have stitched, right? I've even stitched with bone, I made bone.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

That's um that's pretty badass. Yeah, and there's some stuff there that I still have to work on in terms of sterilization and all of that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

I guess just like a heavier waiver, yeah.

unknown 58:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

And then one use. I think they need to be one use for my own my own comfort, I suppose. Not saying others who do uh own sterilization process, that's fine. Yeah, but for my comfort, I would only do one use, yeah. So that would limit the amount of time because of course you're making that needle by hand as well, right? Yeah, um, but yeah, no, and I always say when I started, uh it's not critiquing, but just sharing, when I started, I made those lines intentionally so that you could see that it was hand poked because that was about education. Yes, because I that was in the beginning, and I wanted people to look and go, What is that? You know, that's why a lot of times I leave dashes in my skin stitching, right? Because I want people to look at it and go, What? Yeah, and so I always tell the person part of the payment for the tattoo is that you share about the revival of our ancestral market, right? And so that was in the beginning, and I think things are changing. And I would say that it's also honoring each person's gifts and the way that they see things is important for people to go, this is just the way I like doing it. Yeah, and we have to honor that and love that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Even within just like the hand poke community, yeah. Um, I see there's just so many different ways of doing it. Yeah. And and I I pretty much love every single way. There's an artist, um, I don't know if you've heard of them, that go by Scorpio Pokes, um, and they're in Ontario, and they do really big back pieces. They and it's all dot, it's all dot work.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

And it looks stunning. There's no, I don't think there's any hard lines in it at all. And I'm every time I see their work, I'm just like, yeah, I I like that. I kind of want that. I'm like, why didn't I go down that route? Like I could have, yeah, but I I also appreciate what I do and people search for that too. So yeah, you you find your niche, everybody has their thing. And totally and within like the culture aspect of it, yeah, it is really cool to kind of like have the intention of like making it a little bit known, whether it's like completely visible to the eye or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Yeah, no, and that and I would like I said, that was in the beginning, uh, but we're in a different place and we're doing things the way they need to be done. And the like you said, that's your aesthetic, which is powerful.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Um, yeah, no. Uh yeah, I think we have had a really good conversation. And unless you have something else, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

No, I think that I think I'm good. Yeah, I feel like I'm good. I've had a really good time. I appreciate you inviting me to do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Yeah, yeah, I'm stoked you came and I was able to come out here. So thanks to Canada Council and Arts Nova Scotia Arts Nova Scotia or Support for Culture for helping to fund me coming here. Right. Um, so yeah, stoked about that. And I just appreciate you taking the time out of your busy mom schedule.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

I appreciate you taking the time to to even just come here and and to travel around and do this with all the different individuals that you've been able to do it with. It's really cool that you've made this like a priority of yours.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me uh through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe uh if you haven't already done so. And if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you uh following this journey. I just want you to remember that uh no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done, or what you've been through, that uh you are amazing, that you were loved, and that we need you here today and uh going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better uh through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings, and our compassion for each other as human beings. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it.