podcast intro

episode intro

interview with Julian

0:04

Hey there, I'm John Palmer. When I was a little widger, my Nana used to have a saying. Whenever she learned something new, she would say, fancy that. When you look at a person, any person, everybody has a story. Everyone's gone through something that's changed their life. And I want to provide a platform to share those stories. And hopefully at the end, you'll say to yourself fancy that. I wish to acknowledge and recognize the Esquimalt and Songhees nations on whose traditional territories I live, work, and play. Addiction, mental wellness, and homelessness are issues that exist in every community across our nation. Victoria is no exception. And while there are barriers at all levels to finding solutions, long term solutions, there is a beacon of hope in our community for those individuals needing help. Our place, society, is a safe haven for people living on the street. They offer many programs to help deal with mental wellness, physical wellness, addiction, or even just to provide them with a hot meal. The society is linked very closely to our community and has a long history in Victoria. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with the CEO of Our Place Society, Julian Daly, to talk a little bit about the work that they do in our community, many of the challenges they face, how they responded to the pandemic. We'll talk about some quick wins, and we're going to look at a lot of opportunities for the future. And we're doing this all in the safe environment of Our Place Society on Pandora Street. If you're here and you're listening, really listening, take off your armor, open your mind and your heart, listen to Julian's story, and consider what you can do to help. Let's all put our minds together and look for the best in everyone. and seek to improve our community together. I'm sitting here and our place society's building on Pandora Street on a rainy Monday morning with Julian, the CEO of the society. Thank you, Julian, for having me here today.

Julian 2:32

My pleasure, John. Good morning.

John 2:34

Good morning. When I thought about this podcast and we talked about this earlier my Introduction to Our Place Society is through a family member who struggled with addiction. That's a story that's very familiar with many families in Victoria and cities across Canada. And and so that's my linkage. And I'm curious we'll maybe start off by talking a little bit about you and what brought you to this point in your life in this, at this time.

Julian 2:59

Gosh, that's a interesting question. there's a few things, from a very early age, I made a decision that I would always seek to do work that was, of service to my fellow human beings. Not least because, I was very blessed I grew up with, a lot of opportunities and privilege and I felt from an early age that, I was given those things so that I could also reciprocate that with fellow human beings who maybe hadn't been dealt such fortunate cards in a worldly sense at least. so I wanted to be of service to. to my fellow human beings, and I wanted to do work that was social justice orientated. That was also a very important thing in my growing up, my childhood, really introduced to me by my mother in many ways, and also my education. I Went to a monastic boarding school. And the monks were very aware of the importance of social justice and service. And I also wanted to do work that was interesting and meaningful to me. And so all of, those were my kind of main criteria for seeking work. And then I just opened myself to what would come. And it's led me on a wonderful path, quite varied in fact, quite eclectic. But everything I've done, every job I've done has had all those characteristics. And this particular area of work, working in the area of homelessness and poverty and addiction increasingly. I started about 16 years ago, working in a very similar organization to our place in Edmonton. And I did that for 11 years and, yeah, and then I was approached to, to come here To Victoria and do this job and I applied and was interviewed and got the job. So it's Why I'm here in some ways. I also think that Universe brings you to where you're meant to be a great believer in that My member in my last job in Edmonton I was there about a month and It was a pretty crazy place in some ways, but I remember at the end of that, one day I was standing in the front entrance with an indigenous colleague of mine, and I just turned to her and I said, how did a white Irish guy with an English accent, end up being the executive director of this basically indigenous organization here in Edmonton, Alberta? And she turned to me and in all seriousness said, she said, Julian, the grandfathers and the grandmothers, they dreamt you here. They brought you here for a reason. The ancestors brought you. And you have a job to do. And when you've done it, they'll tell you. And you'll go. And that will be it. And it was just as simple as that. And it was just one of those massive moments of, relief in a way. Because I was feeling a bit overwhelmed by the job, I have to say, at that stage. And just a sense of, it was what it was meant to be. And that there are forces operating, bringing people to where they're meant to be. I think, when I look around at my colleagues here at our place I think that's so often. They're remarkable people and they've been brought here to do this work. And we're blessed to have them. And I think particularly of the New Roads Therapeutic Recovery Community, which I know you have a family member associated with it, and that is a place where, we have remarkable staff, particularly, I think, the director, who also came from Edmonton, who was a gift to us, a godsend, really, in terms of really taking that program to where it needs to be. Yeah, that's how I ended up here for reasons I understand and reasons I don't.

John 6:41

Okay, that's interesting. I'm also a firm believer in, go with the flow, allow the tide to move you. So I do believe it's, it's, it, in in sort of your destiny bringing you to certain times and certain places. But you have to be open to see that, otherwise you may see it as, I don't understand why I'm stuck here. And we were just talking about the gloomy weather. Today is January 8th. It's a rainy day, but 16 years in Edmonton, you're looking at this and thinking, I could have worn shorts today

Julian 7:09

I know. I do thank the creator every day for the weather. And I look, I have the Edmonton weather on my phone and I look at it occasionally to remind myself of what I'm not missing. Yeah, I know you I like what you say about openness though to, to things. Cause actually I. When I came from Edmonton, I wasn't the executive director anymore, I had gone to a sweat lodge and I'd got a very clear message that my time was done, so I actually had left that job and which was a bit strange to a lot of people, I left with nothing to go to, and in fact, a lot of people thought I'd been fired because they couldn't understand why I'd leave, because things were going pretty well, but I just knew my time was done And I left with nothing to go to. I just was an openness to what the creator would bring the next thing for me. And I got a phone call out of the blue about this job. And in fact, it was a phone call I probably should never have got because I was traveling abroad. I came back two weeks early from my trip for a personal reason. And I got a phone call in that time. And if I'd got the phone, if I'd stayed away as long as I was meant to. I would never have got the phone call about this job because I didn't have a data, my data on when I was abroad.

John 8:16

So you're in the role. You have been for a couple of years now through very difficult times with COVID. And and I'm assuming, when we talked very briefly about the pandemic and some of the challenges associated with it. I I noted a bit of a glimmer in your eye when you talked about how you guys stayed open during COVID. I wonder if we can just talk a little bit about that, the challenges, the benefits of why you felt it was important to stay operational.

Julian 8:42

Yeah, I was really pleased and proud of my colleagues that we did stay open. Many nonprofits and I don't mean this judgmental way. I understand there was a lot of pressures to close, but many did and But we didn't, and I don't mean just here in Victoria, but like across our country. We didn't we, understood that this was the only place a lot of people could come in Victoria to get shelter and to get a meal, to get to get in from the cold and in the heat in the summer and find community. So we Yeah, we did stay open throughout the pandemic, which was a real challenge. Not least trying to enforce masking which was quite problematic for us. But my colleagues were great and we opened our doors every day. Throughout the pandemic and not only opened our doors here in the community center, but we added about four or five about 450. Housing and shelter units as well that we took on a lot of that work, people coming out of the camps in Victoria in the parks into shelter and housing. So we were, yeah, we're proud of what we did during the pandemic. I think we saw it also an opportunity to get people housed and we took that and we took it wholeheartedly. And to this very day, about 85 percent of those people are still housed with us. So yeah. In a way the pandemic was good for homeless people in that it, it forced the powers that be to make the resources available to house and shelter hundreds of people who maybe if we'd never had a pandemic would still be homeless.

John 10:22

And in your opinion, do you think in your time that you've been here so far, you've seen a level of homelessness. Has it flatlined? Has it grown? Has it diminished?

Julian 10:32

Yeah, that's a complicated question to answer because in some ways it's gone down. There are hundreds of people that were housed during COVID for many people who are quite long term homeless, they're no longer homeless, so those folk, that's gone down. We have seen consistent. Number of people come falling into homelessness. There's more and more people becoming homeless. So there is some growth as well. What we have seen that I think has been particularly concerning is that one is the most concerning is the opioid crisis and the amount of people who who are homeless and and affected by addictions and dying on our streets. aNd indeed I'd say that what on our streets is less a housing crisis and more a health crisis. I can't give you an exact figure, but I do know that the vast majority of the people who are unhoused on our streets are there mainly because of their addictions. They are often people who've been housed and lost their housing because of their addiction. And they are just simply unable to maintain housing for various reasons. It's a health crisis as much as other, I think that's what I've seen is the housing crisis kind of morph more into a kind of a health crisis. It's still a housing crisis. Those folks still want shelter and need shelter. But it's their unhousedness, if you want to call it that, is driven often by addiction. So we've seen that. And also we've seen an increase in the percentage of people who are on the street who are not doing very well. So what I mean by that is that before COVID, there was a lot more people unhoused and homeless. But when the housing and shelters became available, the people who are more functional and more able to maintain housing got housing and have kept it. So what on the streets now is that most of the people who are remaining on the street are the people who are most unwell. Physically, mentally, in terms of addictions. And there's been a lot of mental health exacerbation driven by The drugs that people are using as well. So the two have gone hand in hand. So what on the streets, and I think this is what citizens, are really aware of, is a lot more acting out of mental health crises and psychoses on the street. And that has made, I think, homelessness more visible. For folk. And more apparent. I'm not sure the numbers are, I don't think the numbers are up necessarily, but the visibility is. And the acuity. The challenges that people on the street face have definitely increased, so that's what I, that's what I'm seeing, that's what we're seeing here.

John 13:11

And as someone who's not skilled in social service work there's a thought process that says, why aren't we just picking these people up in a bus and taking them out to a facility? And obviously there's a hundred reasons why that doesn't work. And there is a bit of a sense as a layperson that we're not going to be able to resolve issues until we figure out in the holistic we, government, volunteers, organizations, all come together with a common vision. And I'm not 100 percent positive that the big picture has been painted yet, that there's a path forward. I think organizations like yours are Desperately important to the most vulnerable people in our society as a beacon, as a northern star. It's never going to go away, regardless of the politics and the discussion. We're here to provide you with A safe place to sit, a place to have a shower, store some gear, have a meal, which is critically important, in a non judgmental manner. And if you want help, we partner with other organizations, we can bring those together for you and help facilitate that. Is that a fair summary

Julian 14:22

Yeah, I think it's a really accurate and very good summary. Actually, I wish everyone understood what we do as well as you do, John. Because sometimes we're actually blamed for what's happening on Pandora. In fact, we get blamed a lot. And I understand how people put two and two together, but they do get five in that. Because it's all happening on our doorstep they assume that we're somehow either creating it or enabling it or colluding with it Or condoning it whatever and to be honest. It is We want to see people off pandora more than probably Anyone or certainly as much as anyone in this city Because it's a humanitarian crisis. It's desperate that people have to live You know, in those conditions on our street. As you said, it's a rainy, muddy day today and people are living out in that. That's not right. So we would love to see an end to it. Unfortunately, we don't have the means to bring an end to it and to get the folk there who are there to where they need to be, which isn't Pandora Avenue. And you're absolutely right. It is, it does require people coming together, various people, different orders of government, some non profits the community as a whole, all sorts of folk coming together to make this happen with a desire to, a real desire to make some change, not just to find words, but Actual actions on, we put a four point plan out with the conservatory last year about how that might happen. And the first step, we said, was to do relentless outreach to the people out there and find out what it would take to get them off the street. And we've done that, and we have a by name list with every single person gave us their name. No one refused to give us their name. And we know. What? What would it take to get every single person out here off the street? Whether that's some treatment or detox or particular type of hosing, whatever it is. And everyone does want to be off there. There's a myth out there that folk just want to be out there and it's happy camping. And no, that's that's rubbish. Not one single person that we talked to. We talked to over 90 people. There's about a group of about 60 or the core people, but one single person said, I want to stay here. But it does require folk to work together and most, most importantly in terms of the addiction and treatment and recovery services and housing because our place, while we do have a limited ability to provide recovery services, we have housing but our recovery services are full and our housing is full so we don't have any further capacity right now to, for the folk out there so we do need those that do. To step up and provide it. And, we're not talking about thousands of people. We've identified there's roughly about 60 people on Pandora who are a core group, people who are regularly living rough out here and in the immediate neighborhood. hOnestly, if we can't get 60 people to a better place, a more appropriate place for them, really?

John 17:24

And this is, I think, a critically important point do you feel like leaders in our community are doing everything they can? And by leaders, that, that could be mayor and council, police leaders, government leaders organizations like yours.

Julian 17:40

I think people's hearts are in the right places and I, I have a lot of contact quite regularly with senior politicians, both, provincially and municipally on these issues and I have no doubt in my interactions with them about their personal commitment to making this better. anD there's no doubt this government, the provincial government has put a lot of money into that, recently it's started investing in recovery and so there are real signs of hope but there needs to be more investment and I think commitment to recovery and detox. Unfortunately, the whole area of addictions has become very politicized and polarized in Canada. I worked in Alberta, as I said earlier, and in there it was interesting, which is basically more of a right wing province, as I think most people know. Where harm reduction was seen as a left wing intervention, and basically the government there got rid of most of the harm reduction facilities, including the first safe, supervised consumption service, which I opened when I was in Edmonton. They closed that down. And they put all their resources into recovery because that's, that, that's a thing. And then you come to B. C. where traditionally it's changing now a bit, all the resources were in harm reduction, which is seen as more of a left wing intervention, and very little put into recovery for a long time. That is changing thank God, but, because that was seen as more of a right wing thing. Intervention. And, to be honest, John, it's been desperate to sit on the sidelines and see the politicization and the polarization around addiction and meanwhile people are dying because we don't need either or. We need both those interventions. You need harm reduction to keep people alive so that they can then move into detox and treatment and recovery. So you need both. You can't really have one without the other successfully. And you need both to recognize the value of each other too, because, there are some in the harm reduction world who don't want to promote or support people to go to recovery or treatment, because they see that is stigmatizing of drug use, because if you're suggesting someone go to treatment or recovery, You're suggesting that there's something wrong with what they're doing, and therefore you're stigmatizing their drug use, so you shouldn't even suggest it. And there are people of that view, which, I understand that intellectually, but in practical terms, it's lethal point of view. Very much frankly, people, I think, die because of that point of view. And that ideology. In the same way, there are people, the more, Kind of fundamentalist recovery people who don't believe in harm reduction and think it's a waste of time and money and again, I don't think, I think that can be a dangerous point of view too, because that means that people don't get access to to services that actually keep them alive in order to come into recovery. Yeah, I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle. It's nuanced. It's in a gray zone. And unfortunately, John, we live in a time where there's not much room for nuance. And there's not much room for gray zone and ambiguity. People want black and white answers to things. Yeah, it's but we do need to come together in a spirit of openness and a spirit of, yeah to trust that we're each trying to do our best by those that most need us to step up and do something. And that's the key for it. Do something because, there's endless meetings about what to do. We know it can be done. If you remember back I guess three years ago now, when all those folk were camping in the parks, and basically everyone in Victoria decided enough was enough. Either because they didn't like people being in their parks and were frightened by it, and it just didn't appeal to their sense of right, or because they were shocked at fellow human beings living in tents in parks. It didn't matter where you were coming from on the political spectrum or world view. But if you were living in Victoria, you wanted people out of the parks. Sometimes for very different reasons, but you wanted them out. And what happened when the government heard that tsunami of public opinion? Suddenly, hundreds and hundreds of units were made available. And we alone housed over 400 people. And other agencies did as well. Seven, eight hundred people got housed. And our streets were cleaned. up of folk in a good sense of cleaned up and that everyone has somewhere to go. But, putting them in a room that ticks one box. Environmental and psychologically it gives them a safe space. But it doesn't deal with their addiction or their behavioral issues or mental health issues. So it's, as you said, it's a holistic solution. There's many pieces to this pie that need to be looked at. I'm sure there's a long list of answers to this question, but are there things that keep you awake at night? Yeah, there are some things one of them is, all the deaths, the terrible amount of deaths, we've had in our own housing facilities just in the last four weeks, we've had nine people die of overdose, nine people, including two just this weekend, just gone. which is, there are years gone by when that would be a massive total for the whole year. This drug crisis that we're all in seems to be showing no signs of abating at all. In fact, if anything, it's getting worse and I worry about that. I just I thought about this so much and I just don't know what we can do. It's so complex and what I keep coming back to, I just keep remembering. The things that we do that help people with addictions, we're in our housing and But particularly also in our recovery center in New Roads and View Royal Where we're having real success with people and with men there at the moment Who are turning their lives around getting sober Understanding why they are in addictions and getting the tools to prevent themselves falling back into addiction And it's really working for a lot of reasons, but it really is. And I, I think of that and I just, what I think then when I'm faced with the seeming hopelessness of the drug crisis is that it spurs me on even more to try and get more recovery beds and to get more recovery work and for us to support those that we serve. to think about recovery and treatment more. And I was just having that conversation with our Director of Housing this morning, who, came to tell me first thing, that two more people had died over the weekend. And she said, what can we do? And we had a bit of a conversation about that. And I said, Leah, one thing you can do is just go and talk to folk in our residences and tell them how bad it is out there in case they don't know. And then open the door for them to begin maybe to think about going to treatment, going to detox, going to recovery. So I think we've been a bit shy as a culture to raise treatment, detox, recovery with people in the sense that somehow that stigmatizes people. And it's an awkward discussion to have. I get that, even when you know people well. But you know what? I think it's a discussion we've got to start having with people. Not to force people to go to treatment. Although there may be a very small number of people who do actually need involuntary care. But the vast majority of people who are deep in addictions, we need to talk with them. We need to reach out to them and be proactive. Not just wait, as we always have done, for them to come to us and say, I've had enough. I want to go to detox. I want to go treatment. Which we should do that anyway. But I think we need to be more proactive with people. I think too many people are dying. It's getting too serious, this, that we can't just stand by and wait for people to come to us. We've got to go to them. The drugs that are out there now are demonic. And, many of these folk who die, they die in the arms of my colleagues, trying to resuscitate them. It's awful. Can you imagine what it's like to try and resuscitate someone who's overdosing and you can't, and they die on you, even though it's obviously not your fault. Imagine what you carry for the rest of your life. And that's what, in terms of Oh, if I'd done this, if I'd done that, maybe are they, if I'd got there earlier, if I, if they might have lived, some of my colleagues have to live with that for the rest of their life because of this too. It's, and they're often very young as well. Yeah, there's one thing about, the addiction crisis, which I think we don't talk nearly enough about, and that is what drives addictions, why do people end up needing to take the amount of drugs they do with the regularity they do. We do a lot of work around the symptoms, addressing the symptoms, but very little around the cause, and I'm not sure why that is exactly, but I think till we really understand the cause, we can't tackle the symptoms definitively. In our New Roads Recovery Facility, that's where many months of work is spent with the men, understanding what is driving their addictions. And when they understand that, then they can truly begin to master their addictions and and overcome them. And I think as a society, we haven't done that. There's a quote out at New Roads facility and it says, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And I can't prove this, but I think so much of the addiction we've seen in our society everywhere, and it's not just homeless people, in fact, I think it's more prevalent even probably beyond the homeless community, is driven by the societal disconnect. In Victoria, 48 percent of people in Victoria live alone, which is a shocking fact I found out recently. And yeah, I think COVID really supercharged people's sense of isolation and disconnection because we were legally had to disconnect from people. And I see so much of addiction. I'm just, my sense is driven by loneliness. And disconnection and not being part of any community. And that's another feature of the New Roads Recovery Program we have that works really well. It's a community. It's a therapeutic community. And those men are in community together. They support each other. They have each other's back. They hold each other accountable. They're there for each other. And that is also key to their sobriety and to their new health and their life changing program. I think as a society we probably need to talk about those things a bit more as well. If we're really truly ever going to address the addiction crisis. Is to understand why we're here

John 28:37

do you know of other Communities, agencies in Canada or around the world that have had success with either addiction, homelessness, or personal wellness in, developing holistic programs to deal with that?

Julian 28:51

I think there are, areas of success. I don't think there is any true kind of beacon that everyone looks to as the model. I think if there was a place that had nailed it, we'd all be doing it. And there really isn't. I think there are people who say they've Achieve things, which maybe they do for a period of time, but it's not always sustained, but there are definitely things that do work and I've, seen those, and I think some of them are things that we do here, for example, when you support people into recovery and get people, and recovery works, not for everyone, but for majority of people, it really works, and it works in a sustained way. In terms of homelessness I know in the UK, in London, they had a big thing, quite some time ago now, about 10 years ago, where they literally did what we've just done on Pandora, which is go and ask all the homeless people they could find what would it take to get you off the street? And then they recorded that, and then they went away and got those things, and then went back to them and said, okay, we've got what you said you needed to get off the street, basically come with me. And they actually. Really reduced homelessness in London really significantly just by doing that very simple thing. However, that, it sounds like that has now slid backwards because there hasn't been the continued investment in that. Because these things require investment. The same in Portugal. Portugal they made some serious inroads in addictions. By, if you were caught with drugs there by the police, they decriminalized it. But You had a choice basically, you you really had to, if you were caught with illegal substance abuse, you either could go to jail or you could go to rehab of some sort, rehab or treatment and people were strongly encouraged down the treatment road, and they made a lot of treatment available as well, and Portugal, it still is one of the poorest countries in Europe, but they made enough treatment beds and recovery beds available so that every single person I understand, pretty much, who was picked up with illegal drugs had the chance to go down that road. And that seems to have had quite a big impact on the addictions there. But again, I hear that the government's not able to sustain that level of investment, so that slid back a bit. The other thing that's changed, and it's changed everything in my mind, is the nature of the drugs. And I don't think anyone has nailed this, to be honest, John. And I think North America is the first continent to be really experiencing this. And that's fentanyl, and it hasn't, and various other drugs that have come with it. I know in Europe it hasn't really arrived there yet, but here it has. It, it is designed to be extremely addictive. Also the things that the drugs are being cut with animal sedatives, which mean that when folk try to resuscitate folk with Narcan or Naloxone and reverse the overdose, they can't because they're The system is already shut down with the animal sedative. The, these are, these things are making it really hard to prevent deaths. But also the drugs are such that they're actually changing people's brains. And the amount of overdoses people have every time someone has an overdose, they have loss of oxygen, which creates an amount of brain damage, which has a cumulative effect if you have many overdoses in a month, which many people do. And on. So there's a number of factors going on that have, the drugs have really exacerbated the amount of people who are dying and also the mental health conditions of folk who are continuing to live, and the brain damage. And that has changed people's behaviors in a way that wasn't evident even five, six years ago. For example you almost never see alcohol on the street. When I started in this work in Edmonton, most people who are homeless are on the street. were drinkers. They did drugs too, but alcohol was the number one addiction. I would say if you went down Pandora Avenue now, you wouldn't find anyone with a drink in their hand. It's all drugs.

John 33:14

And I know that New Roads When you're in that treatment program, they have people that will come in to help you and that I think is what you talked about, about, a much deeper program about rehabilitating people, not just focusing on their drug addiction, but it's about reintegrating them into our community and becoming useful members of that society and feeling that way and not feeling like they're just on the outline because it's By the time they're living on the street and addicted to drugs, there's a litany of doors in their life that have been closed. Could be with family relations, could be your criminal record restricts you from getting jobs, all of the above. So to have an agency that deals with that holistically, I think is critically important and a real logical step. So I think, your comments about some of the stuff that we're doing here, It could be a model for other agencies..

Julian 34:08

Yeah, when I said earlier that it's, the model that we've created is quite unique, I, that was one of the features. There's several features which I think are unique, but it is unique in recovery world as far as I know, that aftercare, if you want, the alumni work, we call it. And we have a monthly celebration which the alumni come to, there's meetings, there's all sorts of ways that people connect in. Which continues the connection of the men who've graduated, but it also provides hope for the men who are currently there because they see people coming in and they're getting on with their lives, they're working, they've got their life together, and it gives them hope. They think, I can do it, if he did it, I can do it. But some people it doesn't work out for them and it doesn't always end as well as they might have hoped, we might have hoped. But we're always very clear that no matter how you are leaving, you're always welcome back. And our door is always open. So we've had people who it's not worked out for them for various reasons and they've left and they've come back. Which is great because there's so much shame in addiction. In fact, I think a lot of addiction is driven by shame, frankly. But there's so much shame that if you go through a program like that and then you fail, you slip up, you start using again, or whatever, that people usually never come back because they're too embarrassed to admit that. Whereas we've made it really clear to people no. There's no shame in making a mistake. And you're welcome back and people do come back, which to me is one of the most positive things about New Roads is that people feel the door is never shut on them. I'd love to see more new roads in different parts of province, country, world, really. Not us doing them necessarily, but us supporting others to follow the model. And I think we've finally got to a model that really works for the men, for the staff, for everyone actually. It's a it's a, I'm very proud of it. And I know it works. It's not just wishful thinking, it does. And we have a success rate of. About 65 percent with the people who come through, which might not sound like hugely high to people, but actually in this world, recovery work and treatment work, that's a very high success rate. And the fact that many men leave into sustained sobriety is something that I think we could usefully roll out in a lot of different places, it's desperately needed. But it's not cheap. But, it's cheaper than incarcerating someone. It really is, to keep someone in jail costs about 120, 000 a year. To keep someone in our recovery program is about 80, 000 a year. It is significantly cheaper, but it's not cheap.

John 36:54

Now New Roads is just one example with Our Place Society of some of the programs that are in place. to help people, and all of this costs money, and I thought maybe we could just talk a little bit about Our Place Society's funding structure. A large majority of your operating capital, is by donation. And so what, is there a combination of funding from provincial government municipal government, donation and my second part to that question is if you were given a blank check, you write in the numbers, where would you make the investments

Julian 37:32

our model at the moment is about 60 percent of our revenue every year. The money to keep the place running comes from government grants, mostly provincial, but also some municipal as well. No federal really was a very small amount, but basically it's mostly provincial. So that's 6 percent and 40 percent is donations. So that's general public. generously giving us their money. That percentage has changed over the years. About three years ago it was more, the other way it was more about 60, 70 percent donations, 30 percent government funding, and we've gradually been changing that. For a number of reasons, partly because government funding has come our way in, mostly in the shape of housing opportunities which obviously we want to take, because part of our job and mission is to house people who are homeless. We did that, but it also, for an organization, it does provide greater stability. Government funding tends to be more sustainable and reliable in the sense that you can pretty much especially if you have a three year contract, you can rely on it year to year. The donations are wonderful and the generosity of people here is extraordinary. However, every year we have to raise money from scratch. And every year it's quite nerve wracking, especially as we see donations going down and down across the sector. Because people's cost of living is going up, their investments are going down. A lot of people have a lot less money to donate, frankly. And when we have vital services that are reliant on donations we, we, that's obviously a cause for concern. We are looking maybe to even increase the government percentage a little bit more. So that we're not quite as dependent on the donations. In that sense. So that's the model. If I had a blank check. I would fill in some of the areas on the continuum of housing, continuum of care, which I think we need to address both homelessness and addictions and poverty. The things I would invest in are the things that I know really work. First thing I'd invest in would be more recovery beds, and also for women as well. I'd invest in rolling out the new roads model to other communities, frankly. Excuse me, that would be the one thing. The other thing I would invest in would be sober housing, which we have a woeful lack of in our province, almost none in fact. So a place where people, when they come out of recovery or treatment, or indeed just when they're going, trying to get sober by themselves, which people do, that they can live in a place where they're not surrounded by easy access to drugs and drug dealers. Which is often the case for folk. They go to treatment, it goes quite well, they come out and they go back into a housing situation where they're surrounded by temptations. And that does not help their sobriety. Sober housing I would invest in. And and continue to provide more housing to just more general housing, affordable housing. There's no doubt that while we have. place we could easily fill more supportive housing beds. Yeah. So those would be the main areas. The two main areas I would invest in would be would be recovery work, more recovery work from all people, including women and sober housing. It's interesting that you bring those up because I I want a message to get across to people that, a successful program in rehabilitation, providing shelter, basic shelter to people, benefits everybody. We're not just talking about benefiting those people. Just as homelessness and drug addiction on the street. It impacts everyone, local businesses, people that live in those areas the economy itself. It all has an impact, on everybody that these programs that you're talking about, while they help people, they benefit our entire community and so I think we all have skin in the game, which is, I think it's critically important that those are the kinds of things that there's an election year coming up. In the province, and these are the kinds of things we should demand as a priority to our politicians, for people that want to be leaders. That we need to hear their, what is their level of support for programs like this.

John 41:45

Yeah, and we do, we, I agree with you. We all do have skin in the game. Unfortunately, one of the things that's happened in our culture, and particularly I think driven by social media, is some of the sort of polarization I talked about earlier, but also the demonization of of homeless people, and also agencies who serve them, there's a real narrative out there on social media that places like our place are just part of what they call the non profit industrial complex, and that Basically, people like me and my colleagues are just seeing this as a business, and we're all about trying to make more money for ourselves, enrich ourselves, and that we don't really care about the issues, we're just here to build our empires. And then there's also, equally, I think, pernicious and Fair narratives about

Julian 42:36

It's about people that are just lazy users of the system. Pariahs and just violent and aggressive and dangerous. And don't care and all of those things. And just using society, using government money. And, both are just so far from the truth, in a way, particularly I think of the homeless people who already are homeless because life has not dealt them great cards. Already feel very marginalized, already feel very disliked, feared, hated even. And then when you put that on them even more it's terrible. I'd say to anyone who felt that, come and serve a meal in here, which I do, regularly. And watch person after person come up and get their meal and thank you with a great graciousness, occasionally, of course, if someone is a bit grumpy or a bit difficult, but very rarely, actually, most people are really grateful, they're polite, behaved, and they're just grateful to have that and they're going through a rough time. And, we really need to it. To focus on the humanity of the people on the street and remember they are our fellow human beings and you know that cliche there but for the grace of God go I and happy anyone could really end up there and we have all sorts of people who end up at our place from all sorts of backgrounds and they just you know had some really tough things happen to them and we need to be kinder and more empathetic I think Because when we dehumanize people and demonize them, we can do anything to them. I think history has taught us that. And that's what worries, that does keep me awake a bit at night. And that, when you turn homeless people into this sort of boogeyman, then it allows you as a society not to take seriously what, what's happened to them. And to give them the help they need. And and it allows you potentially to do bad things to them, too. I saw in Ireland, to use an example not from Victoria, although I could use some from here, but, where the government there has been a massive homelessness problem in Ireland, which is interesting. 13, 000 homeless people. And the government's been trying to set up these centers for people. Just last week in Dublin, there was a new hotel that was opening for homeless families. Someone burnt it down before it could open. And this is not the first time this happened in Ireland. This is happening regularly now. When people find out the government's opening a new shelter for homeless people or indeed immigrants, they're just burning them down before people can go in. And this is what happens when you demonize people and you take their humanity away. It allows people to think it's okay. To burn down facilities where those folk can find shelter. These are very worrying things. I, that's why when I give talks around Victoria, I try and encourage people to think about these things because we can end up in a bad place very too easily.

45:40

As I walked, a couple of blocks down Pandora to this facility, I walked right through the encampment of individuals out there and nobody batted an eye. They're either busy staying dry or busy in their own place my experience today has been absolutely, you're safe and as I walk around this facility, which is, wonderful and clean. One thing that I noted very quickly when we first walked in are the portraits of people that have taken advantage of this facility or at some level maybe been part of the legacy of the program and the building. And the staff around here are all smiling. We had to relocate our interview to accommodate a Bible study group. So it's really, a marvellous place that I could see as a beacon of hope for individuals in hopeless situations. So I just think it's it's wonderful, and I hope that people, pay more attention to the work that's being done here in the many different areas. The other thing I would encourage people to do is visit your website. You have a really good podcast program on the website that highlights the programs. That you do. And and so I think that's great. Do you have any final thoughts? Any areas you want to cover we haven't talked about?

closing comments

Julian 46:55

Just what you said, really, that, this is a lot safer than people think. And yes, there is violence within the homeless community, but it's generally within the homeless community. And, I've been doing this work for 16 years now in Edmonton and here, and Edmonton's a lot hairier than here, I can tell you, in terms of what it feels like in terms of safety. And I've never once had a a negative incident, and it's so rare the violence which is there is always inward looking, pretty much, it's rarely externalized, it does happen, but it's rare. And I, I would just encourage anyone like yourself, like you just said, John, to come in if they can. Come in and make a, have a visit, either sometimes workplaces sponsor meals, and that's a great way for people to come in. It's a safe way because they come with their colleagues, a few colleagues, and they sponsor a meal, and that's great because it gives back to folk, but they also get to meet some of the folk that that use our services, and almost to a person, I think people go away changed. And they go away, just like what you said John, they're surprised actually how friendly people are and how well behaved folk are in this building and how gracious people are and grateful and how safe they feel. They rediscover the human being in the person that they see in front of them when they're here. And they, yeah, maybe move away from the the power of nightmares and fear. Which is a very powerful thing in our culture, especially in social media, to the power of light, and love and humanity, and in seeing that. I always encourage folk to, as you say, can read about these issues, and go on websites, but most of all, try and come in here if you can, because that will really open your eyes, in a good way, I believe.

48:40

I applaud you and your team for the work you do. I want to thank you for taking time out of what I'm sure is the first day back from the holidays and very busy. But it's been really interesting for me to talk to you. And I just want to say thank you for taking the time

Julian 48:56

and thank you for your interest, too, because it is, we are all in it together, and if the powers that be believe enough citizens are interested in that path, and the path, as you say, John, does exist, we've seen people from here start out on Pandora unhoused and end up in New Roads and sober and clean and with a whole new life via our housing sites and via the community center, so there is a path, but we need to widen the path. So that more people can go along it because right now the path feels a bit narrow and that the resources are any left for a limited number of people to go down that path. We need to support people on the powers that be toe widen the path.

49:43

I'd like to thank all of you for listening to my show today. If you have an idea for a podcast, please email me at fancy that podcast at shaw. ca. Thanks so much.