67: Don't Waste A Good Crisis

Hey friends—Michelle here.

This episode was born from a simple quote: “Never waste a good crisis.” At first, it sounds counterintuitive—maybe even insensitive. But what if it’s actually one of the most empowering invitations we’re ever given?

I’m joined again by my brother Travis, and together we unpack what happens when life flips upside down—when your missionary leaves, comes home early, struggles in the field, or when life back home brings its own heartbreaks. We talk about how disorienting those moments can be, and how they’re also doorways to growth, deeper connection, and a whole new level of understanding.

We share personal stories about our mom’s cancer diagnosis, kids leaving the Church, the emotional earthquake of dropping off a missionary—and how all of it became sacred ground for change.

If you're in the middle of something hard right now, you're not alone. Your crisis isn’t evidence something has gone wrong—it might just be the thing that opens your heart to something more.

Let’s learn how to mine the gold from the rubble, feel deeply without drowning, and become the bomb-proof horses we needed when our worlds cracked open.

In this episode:

• Why crisis moments feel so huge—and what makes them powerful
• How to emotionally support others without getting pulled under
• Navigating faith transitions, mission trauma, and emotional overwhelm
• The power of reframing your story so it heals instead of haunts

Take a breath, and let’s talk about what’s possible inside the hard.

Share your missionary stories where you agree to allow me to share them:
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Transcript

Michelle: 0:29

Hi and welcome to the podcast. So I have a family Marco Polo group that we keep in touch with my siblings, my parents, in laws, some of the grandkids. Anyway, super fun. And my brother mentioned something on there a few weeks ago and he said, Never waste a good crisis. And I was like, wait a minute, that would make a great podcast topic. So I invited Travis back to the podcast. He's been on as a guest a few times. So welcome Travis.

Travis: 1:01

Thanks. Hello, everybody. Hello.

Michelle: 1:04

I just thought that it was such an interesting, and you, you said it was a quote from somebody. Where did you find that?

Travis: 1:12

I don't remember where I first heard it, but I believe it's a quote from Rahm Emanuel, who was President Obama's chief of. White House staff. And so he used it because, you know, I think as a president of the United States or a leader of any organization, you know, you're often reacting to outside crises. And it was kind of quite a powerful reframe, and it was never a wasted crisis. And Yeah. And so it stuck with me kind of the same way. Like when you heard it, you're like, wait, what? Cause it's a very counterintuitive thing. Mostly when crisis has happened to us, we feel like we're now reacting to this horrible calamity. But instead to see them as gifts is incredibly powerful reframe. And then the next step is how do you do that? And how, how can we do that to actually get. You know, lemonade out of this lemon. And so I think it's, it's in that family of psychological reframes.

Michelle: 2:15

Yeah, I think that the idea of like reframing it is, it's so powerful because when we're reactionary we just think our life is happening to us instead of for us. And so it kind of puts us in a victim mentality. And crises can feel that way. Very, we can feel very victimized by them.

Travis: 2:37

Yeah.

Michelle: 2:38

So. Yeah, I was talking to Travis before we started recording just about, I've mentioned before that our mom has cancer. And so whoever thinks that cancer is like a good thing, right? But out of our mom having cancer and going through some health problems, we've had some incredible things happen with our family where we've, yeah, we got together for the first time in 10 years, like, and had a big family reunion.

Travis: 3:10

Yeah, and it was, I mean, the thing we were talking about is how we all get into our routines and we just get into living our lives with the specific habits and the specific boundaries and the container that our life is and a crisis comes along and it It shakes the container or it breaks the container. And so I think one way to reframe and what happened with our family was that we were all living our own lives in different states and different countries even, and this. Horrible thing happened and we realized like we don't have infinite time with our parents and none of us do. Even for listeners out there whose parents don't have cancer right now, it's, it's, nothing's infinite. And so all of a sudden. We're like, well, what can we do to help lift mom and dad's spirits? And I think it was you, or it was one of our conversations or something where he came up with this idea of what can we do to give mom something else to think about? Because she needs something to work at, you know, and we all do. We all are like a dog that need a bone to chew on and to fuss over, and we need a problem to be working on. And so, When cancer is acting on us, sometimes we don't, we can go into that passive I'm an object and not a subject sort of mindset. And so to have all of us coming into town gave mom a whole bunch to, to worry about and to think about and to plan and to keep her mind occupied. And And so it helped break the crisis inside her mind, and then it helped break all of us out of the, I wouldn't say stagnation, but I would just say out of the patterns of our day to day routines, and it was, okay, what, because we always make time for what our priorities are, and we all say that our parents are priority, but how much time do we really spend Make for them or for other family members or for our friend, who we say is our close friend, but we haven't called in 10 years. And so I think that's one of the really helpful ways that crisis is can kind of snap us out of things.

Michelle: 5:38

So I think that when we see somebody else, like, I mean, our mom was in, in basically in crisis, right? She ended up in an ER and then she was admitted and she was. not in her home state. And so like, we kind of created like this rallying effect around her. I think that that can happen in other aspects of our life also. I think when we have like family members that, are leaving the church or have left the church, that can feel very crisis like and, and can feel very heavy. And I've talked to quite a few people that, that has been very kind of a crisis time for them as they watch like their family member or, or, you know, somebody that they love, you know, walk away from the church.

Travis: 6:29

Oh yeah. I walked away from the church and I know that I caused that to my family. I have since come back, but it was, it was interesting because it was, for me, it was a crisis that caused me to leave the church. And it was a crisis that brought me back and I tried not to waste either one of them. And it's, I mean, there's, it's like whenever there's a giant almost tectonic shift in our way of being that we can feel like the, it's this, this avalanche that overturns our reality or. I once heard it described as, it's like a portal opens up underneath your feet and you fall down into chaos and hell and you're upside down and you're confused and nothing makes sense anymore. And that's, that's a crisis, you know, we've all had times like that where everything felt topsy turvy and confusing. And so. I guess part of the great challenge and the adventure of it is, is how do you reframe that from it being a crisis that's acting on you, so that you can transform yourself back into a hero who acts upon those outside circumstances. And And so trying to find how do we reframe it and so to keep going with that thread of the church, for example, I would say that there's crisis is yeah, there's a crisis when you get a new calling. Don't waste it. There's a crisis when you're released. There's a crisis when your kids leave on missions. I mean, their life is completely flipped upside down. They were, at one minute, they were a high school senior, or a college student, or somebody who's at work. And the next minute, they're something completely different. They're somebody who's talking about religion all day, every day. Sometimes in foreign languages and foreign countries, and it's completely disorienting. Or, what about when kids come home early from missions? You know, completely disorienting your worlds upside down, the parents worlds upside down. And it's a, it's a crisis. And so how do you not waste it? That's the great thought experiment. Yeah.

Michelle: 8:55

Well, and even dropping them off because it's such a shocking experience to drop them off knowing that you're going to leave them for like 18 months or the two years or however long they serve. It can be very jarring for you as a mom or a dad and I mean, for me, when I dropped my youngest off, it did almost feel like a crisis, like, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm done mothering, like, I've been doing this for 28 years. Now what? And it felt very untethering, like very topsy turvy.

Travis: 9:33

Yeah, like your whole world was now upside down. You were one thing, and then this portal opened, and now you are something different.

Michelle: 9:42

Yes, absolutely. And also like the, the, when my older son went and all these things, all these crazy things happened on his mission, that was a crisis because there were so many things that were so unexpected. And so I also, I also felt very like I've been singing this song my whole life with my kids about hope they call me on a mission. And then I was like, wait a minute. Is this even a good idea? Like there was a lot of, a lot of tension there. I was like, this isn't safe. And so it created some, you know, when you grow up with these ideals and everything sounds great until it actually, like they actually leave and then things are hard and things happen on their mission. They have hard companions. And they have hard situations where, I mean, my son was mugged repeatedly and those weren't things that it felt very crisis because they were things that I wasn't anticipating.

Travis: 10:52

Yeah. I guess it'd be interesting just to think about like, what are the properties of something that make it qualify as a crisis? And it's like, it has to be disorienting, unexpected, and feel negative at first. Yeah, maybe those are some of them and they can be small things that can be massive things. I mean, it's a crisis when we get mugged, it's horrible feeling when they get robbed or when a hailstorm comes through and destroys your car and you're like, okay, I once had a car. Now I have a problem that I can't even drive because I can't see out the window. And the variety and the number of ways that I don't know that problems can befall us is almost infinite. And so we're always falling into crises, but we're also always crawling and clawing our way back out of them. And it's like, we fall into chaos, and we tame and master the chaos, and we're more strong and put together. As a result of it, and the people who can do that repeatedly, they tend to be the people who, when we have problems, we lean on them, because they're just those people, we all have them, those people who are just rocks in our life, and we're like, I know who I'm going to call, like, I have no idea what to do in the middle of this thing. But I know who I can call, and nobody becomes that way except that they've fallen into crisis after calamity, after a problem, and developed the strength and skills to not really be shaken by those things anymore. I'm reminded of a funny story it was about racehorse Seabiscuit, actually. And so when they were training Seabiscuit, you know, the horse had been bred to be a champion but it was super skittish and jumpy and I've never seen the movie but in the in the training of that horse. They had to figure out how to help it not be so anxious and skittish, like all of its nerves that have been bred into it have these hyper fast reflexes and speed and stuff. They were, it was like having a, I don't know, like trying to drive a F1 race car. As a commute car, like you can't, the car itself is too powerful. And so one of the things that they did with this horse was, is that they tied it to this old, I don't know what it was, workhorse or something. That is an old trail horse that somebody had and they tied the two of them together. And this horse's name was pumpkin. And they said the reason they picked pumpkin was because pumpkin had been everywhere, had done everything. And they called it a bomb proof horse. Like it didn't jump at its own shadow. It wasn't afraid of snakes. Anything new that came its way, it didn't care. And so Seabiscuit sat and looked at this horse that it was tied to, and so whenever there was something that it wanted to panic and run, it couldn't because it was tied to this other horse, but it would also look at how this other horse And I saw it like with my dogs, you know, that my little, my younger dog would always look to my older dog to orient itself of how to respond to new stimulus and stuff. And so you take that story and you just magnify it up into humans, little kids look to adults and adults, we look to the other adults, you know, the strong people in our tribe of friends and our network of family. And we're like, Hey what do I do in this case? And they can teach us how to. Navigate those crisis. And I think the next step is not just survive those crisis, but how do we, when we have no one to turn to, how do we turn inside ourselves to self navigate, turning the crisis into a treasure that can be mined. You know, it just has this vein of gold running through it and we, we can capture all these hard won lessons and not let the crisis.

Michelle: 15:00

Yeah, I think that, with my, the trauma that kind of came about with my son, my older son's mission. And I mean, it really put me kind of upside down. And then when my son that's in St. Louis, He said he wanted to go. It brought all that back up. And I, I was forced in a way to face all of that trauma and all of the things that came up with it. And because of it you know, here, here I am today with this podcast, helping other missionary moms that, may struggle as well. And trying to, throw a life preserver, if you will, because sometimes that's what we need. It's just like a life preserver that like, Oh, there's nothing wrong with me. Like this is a big deal and this is a big thing and it's okay that this feels humongous. Because at some point beyond that, it will feel less so.

Travis: 16:05

Yeah, I think your podcast is fascinating because it is the vein of gold that you continue to mine that came from this. Horrible crisis that happened to you. Now, your son had his own experiences, but you also had your experiences of the pain, the shock, the surprise. And so you have, I think that your podcast, when you started doing it to me, I just thought to myself that it was a beautiful way, then it was a beautiful next step in your own healing. And you taking an active role, and I'm not the victim of my son's horrible things that happened on his mission. I'm going to own all of the pain, and I'm going to learn from all of it, and I'm going to make sure that I can pass this hard won wisdom on. To any other moms who are out there who are getting caught by surprise by the things that are happening on their kids missions. And like, I just, I've never met anyone, you know, the people who are out there listening to your podcast. I just imagined them that who would search for this niche of a topic. And it's like people who are hurting, who are scared, who are Grasping for lifelines and you're like I've got one for you and like those people the listeners who are listening to us They're the people who might be a little bit in crisis themself. They might be experiencing some things that surprise them and, and torment them. And they're tuning in to figure out how did other people navigate it? And that's like the whole, I think, theme of your podcast, but it's also your podcast is the thing that you wished existed. When you were there and it didn't exist. I mean, the technology didn't exist. Yeah, for sure. Platform didn't exist. The things that you've learned in the, I don't know what, how many years it's been since his mission, but they didn't exist. And you've worked very hard and developed a whole new skill sets. I mean, you're actually like a different person than he was. When he left on his mission.

Michelle: 18:23

Yeah, totally. I think everything felt crisis like when he left. And then his whole mission. And then, I mean, yeah, it was just kind of one thing after another. And then now it's like, there's so much to be mined. There's so much depth. And I, I mean, like you mentioned, you stepped away from the church. I did too. And then I came back and I can say, honestly, like that stepping away was such a gift, even though it felt like a crisis to everybody around me and to some degree to me, because it was very unfamiliar and it felt, you know, just the things that. I was raised learning and also then teaching my kids, you know, that we don't stray from the path. And then I strayed from the path and came back. But looking back now, like there's such a deeper level of who I've become, which doesn't mean you have to like leave in order to do that, to attain that. It's not anything I'm advocating. It's just how my. journey unfolded. And through some of those crises, there was so much growth. And so much more depth in like my beliefs and in even in missions, like my, my belief in what they're doing and what they can accomplish. My conversations with my boys as they're serving, we have, there's so much depth in what we talk about where before with my other boys, when they were serving. It was all very surface, very kind of shallow, if you will yeah, well, and my older son only got a call twice a year. So that was not like we were more like, Oh my gosh, are you okay? Okay. You're alive. So yeah, I think that that's like such a great lesson. And I think that that reframe Yeah,

Travis: 20:41

it's, it's curious to me, but like, I left the church while my daughter was on her mission. And I know that that created a crisis for her. And what was one of the interesting things to me was, is that her mission, the crisis of this person who I love more than myself out there on the mission, suffering. Having challenges and experiencing things that they were painful for her, but as a parent, it was so painful for me to see her have to go through some of those things. And it was interesting to see, for example, that, you know, she she's very squared away. She was she'd already been off to college and now because she was. A sister, she was taking orders from elders who were younger than her and had less life experience. And I don't know if they were as squared away as she is. And so I had to face that part of the church that women deal with a lot, but I hadn't as a male. But now. I did through my daughter's experiences and I got to experience her frustration with the system and, and what that was like for her and, the relationships with her mission president and the challenges there. And it was it was interesting because, as parents. I think when we love somebody, we, our emotions get tied up with the other person that we love. And when something bad happens to them, it happens to us because we care. My own hard things with the church I could handle, but I couldn't handle my hard things and hers at the same time. It was too much, and I had to step away for a second, almost to catch my breath and it shook, it created a crisis for her, because she's out there teaching people about the church and her own father who had taught her, to serve the church and to be a missionary and all this stuff. And I tried to set a good example for her, I stepped away. And so it created a crisis for her. And it was weird because And she was like, well, what am I supposed to do, dad? And I couldn't even tell her because I was still trying to manage my own crisis. And it was sometimes that happens to us too, where there's two of us and you just have to trust the other person will take care of their themselves while we're trying to figure out our crisis and our side of it. And yeah. I guess maybe this would be an interesting inflection in a conversation would be what are some of the concrete things that we can do to get traction on the crisis and to start to transmute it from this external thing that's acting on us so that we can get a little bit of leverage, a little bit of control to start to flip it into something useful so that it's not wasted.

Michelle: 23:45

Yeah, well, and I think some of that is just like having some understanding and skills of like Well, the nervous system, our brain, how our brain thinks, the stories we spin, the, the things that we come up with. Cause we can escalate the crisis in our own minds by the stories that we tell and the patterns that we have and being able to recognize some of those. But. For sure. I think the starting point is like the nervous system and like being able to see when, when we're activated and why, and being able to signal to ourself, like, are we safe? Are we okay? And I think that was one of the, I think that's one of the reasons like we get stuck. We end up with trauma. It's because we get stuck in an activated nervous system and we can't get to that calm state. And one, I think that's really what happened on my, Sun's mission for me. It was just one thing after another. And I was just so activated for so long that it ended up creating this pathway in my brain that created some trauma. And so I think for sure, the first step is being able to, you know, signal like, okay, are you. empirically safe, right? Can you, can I answer that? And, and then like, is my son empirically safe even when he's unsafe? Like, is he actually safe? And so being able to answer that and being able to start to signal to myself, like, okay, we can, we can take this down just a little bit and maybe just a small notch down. We can, instead of, because usually what, this is what happens to me and I've seen happen to other people. My nervous system gets activated and I'm very worked up and amped up. And then I talked to, you know, my friend and I, they're getting very, Activated and worked up and it's like we, we meet your nervous system where it is and we raise you, Oh, you're anxious. So am I. So then we're like so anxious and we're so worked up about things. So it's like being able to, you know, recognize that and also being able to allow people to have their emotions without jumping too far into their emotional pool.

Travis: 26:05

Yeah. It's like I certainly think that emotions are contagious. I remember there's a quote from the Navy SEALs and it was calm is contagious, but panic is too. Yeah. And sometimes it's like there's one calm person and one panicked person and they're both trying to infect each other to change the other person's emotional valence.

Michelle: 26:31

Well, I know when I'm panicked and I'm talking to somebody that's like, You should just calm down. That just rises my panic because I want them to panic with me. Right. And so it doesn't, it, it feels like a existential crisis. Like, how can you be calm in the middle of this? Like, this is none of this is okay. I remember feeling that way with my older son's mission, just like, and my, and my husband was like, okay with it. And I was like, how is this? Okay. Like, none of this is okay. And he was calm through it. And I was like. Not.

Travis: 27:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's, it doesn't help to tell somebody to change their state, whatever their state is. Like calm person. Like if you walk up to them and say, panic, panic, like they're like, okay, well, why? And it doesn't help to tell an anxious person to calm down. I don't know that that has ever helped.

Michelle: 27:27

No, I think it just escalates normally.

Travis: 27:30

Yeah. Yeah. It's actually it's actually like fighting words in some ways. Because he's saying there's something wrong with you or something like that.

Michelle: 27:38

Well, and I think what it's doing is saying that your feelings aren't valid. Yeah, that's

Travis: 27:42

a good point.

Michelle: 27:43

Yeah, you're, whatever is happening inside of you is invalid. And so instead, not that you have to agree with somebody, but if you can just even have that conversation, like I, I can see this is a lot for you and your feelings are valid.

Travis: 27:59

Yeah, and feel with them.

Michelle: 28:01

Yeah, but

Travis: 28:02

not get pulled into their storm.

Michelle: 28:04

Yes. Yes. Speaking of storms, I'm just going to mention this and then we'll wrap this up. But my, my, my son was talking to me about one of my boys was talking to me about, He has to hear, like he was his own leader or something. I don't know. And so he hears a lot of the other missionaries problems. And if they're having problems at home, or whatever, they're kind of talking to him about it. And he was saying like how hard that was emotionally for him. And so I actually drew him a picture of somebody in a pool that's like drowning. And that's like somebody, what, this is like what normally happens, right? They're, they're drowning in their emotional state with whatever crisis is going on in their life. And they're struggling with their companions, they're struggling with what's going on at home. They got dumped by their girlfriend or their boyfriend or whatever. So then what was happening was my son was getting in the pool with them and then they felt better because they told him everything. So then they're like, Oh, I feel so much better. And so then they left the pool. Well, then my son is still swimming around in that same pool of emotions of this other person's problems. And so I just drew him, you know, just a visual of that. And I was just explaining to him like, Hey, what you need, it doesn't mean you don't love somebody. if you throw them a life preserver instead of getting in and drowning with them. And so, and so he was like, Oh, like, how do you do that? And we talked about how you do that. And the, the first, honestly, the first point is just some awareness of that's what's happening. Because if you're not aware of it, you, it, it's not at your conscious level. So you don't know. But as soon as I drew it and explained it to him, he was like, Okay. And I said, so next time somebody like one of your missionaries calls and checks in with you or whatever and it's kind of starts to turn to an, an emotional, you know, things that they're talking about, you just have to take a deep breath and be like, I'm okay. And I'm going to throw them a life preserver, but I'm not going to get in and drowned because two drowned people are just two drowning people.

Travis: 30:22

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Michelle: 30:24

Yeah. And so it's like those emotions when we talk about like anxiousness, like sometimes we want people to feel anxious with us, but we don't really because too anxious people are not very good at moving through whatever's happening. So if you have somebody that is anchoring and calming. It's okay that they're not anxious and it's okay that you are and neither one is wrong.

Travis: 30:51

Yeah, sometimes we just, things happen and our emotions react really fast in response and all of a sudden we're feeling this big strong thing, anger, anxiety, depression, and we're not sure, you know, why this emotion happened or what we're supposed to do with it. But once we have it, it's like many things in life, maybe it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And so you're still responsible to do something. It is your feeling. It's not somebody else's feeling.

Michelle: 31:26

Yeah. Well, and the emotion feels so big, but it is happening inside your body. And I've heard some simplifications, like it's just a chemical reaction and there's just some neurons that are doing this and, and I'm like, yeah, all of that may be true. And it feels ginormous in my body. And so but I think that like these emotions, like, I, I just think that it's part of having a body and it's part of the earth experience and learning how to embrace and be able to, like, even like, maybe just anxiety will take as an example, like, I guess I'm doing this, this is going to be part of it. And I like always visualize the on inside out to the little anxiety. Oh, yeah, character, you know, like, Oh, I guess they're at the console. Like, let me take some deep breaths and see if I can move them over to the passenger seat instead of in the main driver's seat, but also, other emotions too can feel, that's just an example of the things I, yeah,

Travis: 32:33

a hundred percent, lots of emotions. I heard a really nice example recently, do you remember like in some of the older windows, they had this thing called defragment. Your hard drive. Mm. Mm hmm. And so, somebody used that as a really cool metaphor. And they said that when we have bad things happen to us, this was actually a, a mental health therapist who they're, they were doing some lectures that I got invited to. And she was saying that when she talks with her patients, one of the examples that she uses is that when we have a traumatic thing happen to us, that it gets encoded on our hard drive in lots of different places. And we sometimes have to find a way to defragment and to put it all together in one place so that it's organized, and it's coherent, it's wrapped in a little bow. And she said, you know, in a lot of mental health, that our stories Get broken. So, for example, for me, I was in a training program. I was set on having, completing this program and having that new credential as part of my identity and my sense of myself. And then everything went sideways, a portal opened underneath me and I fell into chaos and hell. I was upside down. I didn't understand what was going on. I found myself in a crisis and it, I had nightmares for months afterwards. And it was very disorienting and the, and traumatic. And I think at that time I actually met the diagnostic criteria for acute stress disorder. And it was distributed because my story was broken. this story I had been telling myself of who I was, what I was doing, what I was up to, the story I had been telling my friends and my family, and they were all cheering for this part of my story. And now I didn't know what I was or where I was going or what I was going to do. And so my story itself was broken. And that's something that when therapists help people heal, one of the things they do is they just help them fix their story. And straighten it out. And there's lots of different ways to do that. Journaling can help us figure out our story. When we talk to our friends, we're like, and this happened, and this happened. And a good friend pushes back and helps us straighten the crooked parts of our story out and iron those wrinkles flat again until our story makes sense. And we can tell the story without all the emotion and the chaos and the confusion. And that's kind of one of, and, and therapists help us with that and church leaders can help us with that and stuff like that. And so I think that once our story is straight, then now we have something that the crisis hasn't been wasted and we can actually learn from it and we can grow from it. But sometimes it does take a bit of work to get it into a. What would you say to open the mine so you could actually get some value out of it instead of just paying?

Michelle: 35:34

And I think that sometimes it really is just hindsight because it's kind of hard to mine a crisis during the crisis because everything feels so crazy. But then afterwards, looking back, you can kind of go, okay, look at all the things. You know, I mean, for sure, that's what happened with our mom, like, it felt very crisis like when she was diagnosed. And then so many good things have come from her diagnosis. And so we can, we can look back on those and be like, These would have never happened, probably, if she hadn't been diagnosed. We certainly wouldn't have planned a reunion in three weeks that involved so many people. From so many places.

Travis: 36:28

And nobody would have made, they would not have made it as high of a priority. All the other priorities of our respective lives would have out competed it. And yet, how do you out compete a crisis? Right. You can't.

Michelle: 36:42

Yeah. So there's like these gifts. So if you've had a crisis in your life, if you've had, or if you're in the middle of one, just remember at the end or towards the You know, when you get partway through, start looking back in that hindsight and see if you can't mine some of the, the goodness that came, because I, I don't think I would have ever considered cancer a blessing, and yet it has been in our family, in.

Travis: 37:13

Yeah, and the same can be said for almost every bad thing that we ever go through in our life.

Michelle: 37:17

Yeah. Absolutely. And so much growth. Thank you so much, Travis, for joining me. It's such an interesting conversation and you always bring so much depth. So I appreciate all the

Travis: 37:28

thanks for the invitation. I really enjoy our conversations too. And I hope those of you who are out there listening, I hope you guys have enjoyed it too. We really try to put our best into it to bring value to you and, and hopefully it's something that whatever crisis is you're going through, I also hope that they're not wasted. Yeah.

Michelle: 37:47

All right. We'll see you guys next week. Bye. Bye now.