How Relationships and Networking Shape Career Journeys with Alison Abbott

Welcome back to Discover Fresh Perspectives, where host David Gouthro reconnects with special returning guest, Alison Abbott. Nearly two years after her first appearance—and 117 episodes later—Alison joins us to share what’s transpired since navigating a challenging job market, the ongoing evolution of AI in the marketing world, and the undeniable power of relationships and networking. 

Together, they discuss lessons learned from career transitions, the role of human connection in an increasingly digital workplace, and Alison’s insights on sustaining momentum through both setbacks and new opportunities. 

Whether you’re seeking inspiration for your own career journey or eager to hear fresh thoughts on the future of work, this episode promises candid reflections and practical advice from both host and guest.

Alison Abbott

Alison Abbott’s journey took a turn after eight months of unemployment. Around month nine, a casual coffee chat with a networking connection led her to a role at a small marketing agency. There, Alison spent nearly a year and eight months, immersing herself in the dynamic world of marketing. 

Her time at the agency challenged her to expand her skills and think creatively, marking a period of significant growth both professionally and personally.

Alison's LinkedIn Profile

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Are you stuck in the same old routine at work? Do you find yourself hitting a creative wall, unable to see beyond your current perspective? It's time to break free and unlock the power of fresh perspectives. David Guthrow back with Discover Fresh Perspectives. And this is actually the first time I'm having the same guest on twice. So today I have Alison Abbott back. Welcome, Allison.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Oh, thanks for having me. I didn't realize this was I'm the first one to be back twice.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yeah. This is it's it's very special for a number of reasons. And I was just looking at this. You were uh guest number 10 on Discover Fresh Perspectives. And I have now this is the 117th episode after your last one. So that's how many I've recorded. So I'm not going to guarantee it's going to be any better. But if it isn't, I have no excuses. So and one of the reasons I was happy to have you back, there's quite a few reasons. And one is to catch up because so much has happened in almost two years since we last spoke, both for you, for me, for the for the world. But also I'm just, you know, more and more seeing the power of relationships and how important that is. And it's certainly I I listened to uh the original podcast with you this morning, just to kind of refresh my mind. And I don't, I don't usually listen to any podcast the second time, but I did this time. And just to think of uh all the things that we were talking about back then, some of which magnified, like AI, for example. Chat GPT was fairly new back then. And wow, I mean, the changes are just like like light years. But also how we end up talking in the first place, which was about the importance of relationship. And I think I mentioned that I first met your mother uh in that was in 1970 when we were uh counselors at the same day camp. And I was going into university and she was going into to grade 13. That kind of dates us in terms of when there was a grade 13. And then, you know, I saw maybe once or twice since then. So it's not like we've been close friends, but sometimes those friendships that formed a long time ago just they they're just kind of always there. Uh, I've been keeping track of a number of my friends from the University of Waterloo, like every every four to six weeks for for years, and that was like over 50 years ago. So it's uh those are things that are are very, very important. And then the day where you know AI tries to create most relationships for us, you know, I realized the power of having a personal relationship virtually anywhere. And you certainly talked about it when you were looking for jobs back then, about the importance of networking and things like that. So that's why I was kind of keen to have you back again and find out what's what's happened for you and how things are going. People may be very interested. And for those that didn't listen the first time, I'll make sure that I have that posted in the program notes. But at the time, you've been one of some like 6,000 marketing people that have been released by a telco. And so there are all these people in the marketplace, as well as uh that were thrown into the marketplace, into this pool that had other people looking for jobs. And some of the challenges of of doing that, and at that time, you'd been looking for work for for eight months. So maybe we could just turn the dial back, spin the clock back a little bit. I realize I'm spinning it in a circle period, and a lot of people that only know digital clocks are gonna go, what the heck is he doing if they pictured me doing that? But okay, so two years ago. So what what has kind of transpired for you since then, Allison?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yeah, um, okay, I'll try to maybe go in in order. So uh last we spoke, I think it was eight months being unemployed around month number nine. I was lucky enough to get a job opportunity in an agency, a really small marketing agency. And so that was through networking and through actually a connection, who I was who I met with around uh three or four months before uh casual conversation and just kind of a coffee chat ended up leading to this job opportunity. So I was in that marketing role up until just November. So a couple months ago. So I had a good uh year and a half, a year and eight months at this agency. And uh I learned a lot. I had to really push my brain and um expand my thinking in the marketing world. So that was a really great work experience in terms of.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

And actually, I'm gonna stop just a sec, Allison, because one of the things that that's clear that that uh that relationship, that connection didn't pay off immediately. So you know, you never know when and if those relationships are going to come to something. So I just, you know, just because it doesn't happen right away, it's it's worthwhile maintaining those relationships and it paid off for you. So okay, I'll stop interrupting for a couple of minutes.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Well, well, no, no, it's relevant. So she, um, the person I connected with was actually the president of the of a very small company. Um, and from our initial conversation, it kind of turned into a coaching type of relationship. I found her very um, you know, she pushed me in the right ways of saying, okay, what are your goals? What what do you want to be doing? She kind of pushed that in being a woman in marketing and thinking about that dynamic as well. So um she uh she was we kind of created that dynamic a little bit. Um and I it was actually a relationship that I nurtured as well. So I was I think I was staying relevant in her mind a little bit. And then when the opportunity did come up, she thought, okay, if you're interested, send an application. So that's that I think keeping top of mind as well contributed to that. Um yeah, so that that role um got me to about November now, and uh what came to be is due to to lack of science, she ended up having to lay me off. Um so another layoff, which is not great for on paper, but um, I mean it's the it's the the way the business world worked and how marketing often works. It's it's one of those industries that often gets cut. So um since November, I've been job hunting and um I've gotten lucky enough to have a couple interviews. So I'm hoping one of those will will turn out. So right now I'm I'm still in that job hunting mode again. So you're catching me at job hunting uh season, it seems.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

So I don't want to take anything for granted here, Allison. So when you say lucky enough to get a couple of interviews, I you know I have a hard time believing it was just a function of luck. So maybe you can say a little bit about how those came about. I mean, that may be a factor, but I want people to think that it's you know, just like buying a lottery ticket, sometimes you're lucky enough you get it, that effort goes into being able to be lucky.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah. I I have a couple thoughts on that. I mean, um like you mentioned in the intro, the uh people who are unemployed looking for work right now is it's in insane. Um and it's so competitive and it's really hard to get noticed now. Um again, as you said, AI is making it really easy and um I don't know, passive for people to apply to jobs. So it's a click of a button, some you know, AI type of um adjustments, and then send it in. And then the employer is taking the application, putting it into an AI system and filtering through there. So there's no human connection or really my experience is it was really hard to get your personality across and really the whole package of what you can provide through a machine-to-machine type of interaction. So when I say lucky, I think, okay, I had some recipe that got me through, or um, in my case, my uh two of my interviews came through connections and that networking again. So um I guess one of them was was maybe more cold applications, but um yeah, there it's it's interesting comparing this time applying to jobs versus last. Um because I'm I'm finding it a little bit I'm having better momentum this time around in terms of getting interviews.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

So how how do you do that? I mean, some people get disillusioned and start to give up, but you're actually kind of adding more, more, more gas. So where where is that momentum coming from?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Um I actually don't know. I think my experience that I just completed um in November really gave me that leg up and helped round out my experience. So I have more to to bring to the table. So I think I'm a more valuable um applicant, uh just in terms of the work experience. Um and I've done a lot of workshops and read a lot of tips and and articles on how best to tweak applications and try to stand out and try to get through that um technical web that we that we need to bounce through. So um I think some some tweaks like that, and then also maybe time of year, you know, beginning of the year is often a time when companies have gotten new budgets, they have um ability to add some more headcounts. So maybe there's a little bit of that frequency um or openings. So I don't know, those are those are things that come to mind.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

So have you tried anything new since two years ago?

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Yes, I've I think I've no not I think I have gotten more um um intentional on what I'm applying for. So I'll spend more time applying to less jobs. Um I think it's actually going to deliver more results rather than um, you know, uh for lack of a better term, like a spray in the prey type of approach, which was I think where I was before was thinking just get in front of as many and maybe one will will catch on. And now I'm being very deliberate, deliberate and looking at my network a lot more as well and trying to use those connections because as we as we know and we've talked about, um, it's just so important about having um a little leg upboard introduction into the company. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Well, I think it it certainly shows that you've put some effort into it. And and you know, similar to last time, I think the question is always how do you in a in a sea of the undifferentiated, uh how to differentiate yourself, you know, from so marketing is one of those things. Like I read a a rather, I'm not sure it was was depressing or just realistic note from a fellow talking about AI and basically said that any job where a good portion of it's in front of a screen is going to be in jeopardy. So, you know, if you're laying bricks, it's probably not one of those things. You may get some AI that assists the design and things like that. But, you know, and is it still marketing that you're interested in? And and if so, what are the aspects of marketing that are more um I guess of more interest in an AI-driven world, or are ones that uh that AI is more likely to include you rather than exclude you? Like you've had had two years of of thinking about these things and doing that.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Um well before at least my exposure so for so far has um told me that AI needs a lot of direction and details in order to produce what you want or what's actually valuable to use. Um so there is a little bit of that human side of critical thinking and um looking at maybe a bigger picture and how does it fit in and um what's the the audience and the the the specifics in the in the details um that I think often in and AI might miss. Um so that's where the human element comes in. And then um I think another piece for marketing is that people who are not in marketing and maybe this is just my experience, but I think when people think about marketing, they think of this big picture, maybe um a specific project or type of marketing when when you really get down to it, a lot of it's about um strategy and and um I think there's a lot that I'm trying to collect my thoughts a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

So so let me uh just jump in something that's that's related but not directly so. And that's one of the um uh one of my neighbors actually was a marketing guy, and he looking at very senior positions. One of the things that he did differentiate his self, himself I'm a professional speaker. I don't always do it very well though, but um he looked at this company and looked at their product mix and things like that and actually put together a proposal about what he would do to build a business. So putting that extra effort in to show, first of all, that he knew the business and differentiated himself by actually putting a lot of effort into just having to get that face to face. Because so much, so often that's what makes a big difference. Just to get in front of someone face to face. So, you know, different ways to uh to do that seem to be pretty important. And I know video now is everywhere. And, you know, how you know can you use video to position yourself differently? Because uh like you I find it really hard to get a sense of personality over something that's in writing, you know, and and a lot of these look the same. They've gone through the same engines to make it look like the right format and and try to to game the algorithms that do the hiring decisions and things like that. But uh, you know, to try to get around that uh um I think seems to be seems to be pretty important. And I know that you net you do a lot of networking. Like you've you've got a lot of other connections. I think you used to play soccer and you made some connections there and uh snowboarding or what it's I'm trying to think of all the sports and some people from volunteer.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Good memory.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah. Yeah, that I'd say those are my top three. So yeah, really great memory.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah. So, so and and you know, and to work those connections. So well, what what kind of and and also I'm just thinking that last time we were talking about how there's a lot of work from home. And the and I'm just ranting here, but part of what I hope doesn't happen, where all of the work is from home, and it's really hard to have a person-to-person connection when you're working remotely. I remember reading recently about there's decline in people's cognitive abilities in school because uh over the last 10 or 15 years, because more and more they're learning in front of screens. And the point that this person was making in his presentation was that as human beings, we evolved as social creatures. We learned from other people. And he's contributing part of the decline in the way that we learn, where it tends to be stimulus response and things like that, that that uh there's so much more when you get face to face. What so I'm ramp I'm rambling all over the place here because it's just so great to see you. But you know, in terms of work from home and things like that, what are you finding as you explore other job opportunities?

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, it it is interesting. So I was 100% remote in my previous role, and I I did feel I was missing that human connection and collaboration as well. I was very um siloed and, you know, there is that meeting from time to time, but I was working on my projects primarily on my own. Um, and it is hard to uh get creative and come up with new ideas and get that type of collaboration going. Um, and it I what I've heard and and um when I'm seeing on applications is there's a big shift to work in office. Um my a friend actually I saw volleyball last night. She shares that she's she's been now in going to office three times a week.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

And she's finding that so challenging because um for the past five years, she's been 100% or limited time in office, maybe once or twice a month, um, to now three times uh a week. So there is that shift. Um I'm seeing across a lot of industries. But then of course, you know, there are those companies who are not paying for uh corporate space. But so I honestly I'm seeing it across the board. There's it seems as though there is a shift back to office, but um a lot of companies are still remote only or remote first. So yeah, good mix.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

I think and we're still very much in a transition period there when my um my wife was uh an IT director and at at the time and she was she found some really great people, but the um okay, Allison is sneezing. You can't you can't see it, but she's sneezing. Uh there, she's just got to put her head back on. She'll be back in a minute. That um she that their their organization has just decided they wanted people back to work. And so one of the requirements is they had to be back, I think it was was uh was three days in the office. And she found some really, really good people who said they'd they'd come back for two days, they would not come back for three. And so lost some really good candidates because it couldn't meet that requirement. And you know, how you have a a one size fits all these days is really, really tough. Cause a lot of people, very good people, got very used to working at home on their own. And it's more convenient and they get more done as well, and they're more satisfied, and especially if they have kids and things like that, it's it's almost a requirement. So I think we're still in transition mode around that. Just what exactly how that exactly is going to sort itself out, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Well, I actually remember at TELUS in 2020, 2021, we were 100% remote in those early days of COVID. And actually quite a large number of people moved their family out to the country or moved to a different province because there was that opportunity of, you know, we've always been wanting to, now's the right time for the market or whatever it was. Um, and when they did call people back to the office part-time in like 2021, 2022, uh, they were 100% remote. And at the time, I don't know how the business is now, but at the time it was no problem. But I wonder if in your in your wife's case, if there were people who made big life changes and um have said, you know what, now I'm a remote only employee. Like that's all I can do. So um yeah, it's interesting how it's evolved.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I I occasionally find on LinkedIn that that uh these senior executive positions, I don't know why they come into my feed, but they do. And I I noticed some of the criteria. A lot of them are saying they're remote. And my belief is that culture in an organization is really, really important, like having a consistent set of values, people know what you can count on, uh, that that a good culture keeps people even when they might get paid more elsewhere. And so I get concerned when I see that an executive might be hired at some place that's that's months or sorry, provinces away. Because it's really, really powerful important in my view, especially in times of change, to have visible leadership. And I know it's more costly to do that, but it's really, really tough if if uh you hire a senior executive and all you want him or her to do is just come up with an execute strategy. Because in the absence of face-to-face meetings, they can't do nearly as much in terms of embedding the culture. So uh it's gonna be interesting to see how that goes. But just recently I've seen a trend towards more senior executive positions that at the bottom says remote.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Oh, yeah, I I'm definitely with you for that um human connection. Uh and you're right, like that that top-down kind of mentality. You you leave how you demonstrate how you want the company to um be, I guess. So um yeah, I I mean I don't see those executive roles in my feed, but um, that is interesting. Are those are you noticing a trend in terms of uh industries or um types of businesses?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Well, I think a lot of them are high tech.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

You know, so that doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Right. So so they they have the technology. And that's also one of the ones where it's really hard to establish a solid culture. You know, and if you don't have that solid culture, then I was just thinking about this this morning. It ends up being the organization is like a machine with all these parts that interact in a very specific way. There's no give, there's no flexibility, it's just all about execution. Personally, I would find that boring. You know, it might pay well, but I would find that um that really boring. And so many things now are being technology enabled, but it also I think has a crushing impact on the culture of an organization. Now, you know, once culture no longer matters, I kind of hope there's always going to be organizations where culture matters. So let's take not for profits, for example. I don't know of too many people that go to work for a not for profit because they're gonna get rich doing that. There's something that's passion driven or mission driven. And I think in places like that, the culture is really, really important. And I've seen it when someone is doing just the job and they haven't bought into the mission of the culture, because typically they don't. last long, that consume resources, there's a lot of churn in the organization. So, you know, in places like that, I think it's critical. I'm not so sure in some of the, you know, the huge technology companies and things like that. It's it's as important. You know, I was I was saying to a couple of friends the other day that if if I was going to invest in uh in an educational institution, I'd be going to like the the BCITs or the Ryerson's or wherever that are teaching skills and trades that for the next few years are not going to be done by robots or by AI. So things that are that are hands-on. So uh because I can imagine I'm pretty sure that I'm going to always need to have access to a plumber or an electrician, you know, when when things go wrong. And uh but for anything else it's it's it's really hard. And I wonder about people coming out of university today, what sort of future they see for themselves in in uh not just a well paying job but a job at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

I I heard an interesting piece. I don't I can't remember if it was about marketing or just in general, but it said right now at least AI isn't replacing marketing roles. It's replacing entry marketing roles. So those maybe more junior and more um first step type of roles are maybe being replaced so get becoming more competitive coming right out of school. So I I cannot imagine what new grads are are are going through.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Another phrase that I've heard that that's reminiscent of and I've had a few folks talking about AI in my podcast is that AI isn't going to take your job but people that use AI will if you're not using it right how how you do that. So you know what let's just dream a bit here Allison so what would I what would an ideal job look like for you? What are what's what's the basket that would be a basket of of uh criteria that you'd be looking for I've always struggled with this and and this is something that I need to be getting clear on um but uh more recently I've been drawn towards roles that are um product management management or project management with a tie to marketing.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

So kind of within that marketing umbrella but still um looking at the overall projects instead of being a campaign manager or um my previous role as more of like similar to a marketing manager. And I think I want to move away from being so focused on campaign execution and strategy and development and more towards a larger project where I can manage multiple stakeholders and the and the moving parts and the timelines.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

So those were builder roles where I noticed myself being drawn to but so like going going into a new market for example. Yeah yeah kind of thing where there's so many different elements to it.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yes yeah launching a a new product um which includes a marketing plan but yeah exactly um and honestly I'm feeling very open as well because like I mentioned um with the job I just previously previously came from I might not have been on paper, you know, thinking that's exactly what I want to do. But now when I'm looking back, I learned so much and developed so many great skills that I can now apply to my next role. So I I definitely am one of those people who kind of trust the process and I I know that the right opportunity is going to come to me and it's gonna again grow me to an even elevated more elevated level. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

So on a looking at from another side are there any types of of roles or jobs that you say, you know what, I have zero interest in doing that. I remember some of the things you said that that that you were good at and that you were sort of on the extroverted side of things, which certainly comes through. I mean you're very very personable and you're also really good with numbers. You like numbers and processes and making and and managing multiple stakeholders ensuring that things get done. So those you know those are some skills that I presume you haven't lost over over this time. So what are some what are some examples of marketing jobs where you just kind of go, nope, not my skill set, maybe more importantly not my passion. Any of those things come up so that people are listing going, I'm gonna go for that because I know Allison isn't interested.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah. Anyone else I I do not want social media I I I'm not drawn to it. Even on my personal accounts um I I'm not I I don't feel drawn to it. And when I look at the job descriptions, you know again it's just not where my passion is right now in this day and age and and um you know this newer generation is so tapped into social media so it's an incredibly important tool for marketing campaigns and initiatives. And again I'm not drawn to it. I've when I've done campaigns I'm kind of forcing myself to really get it but um yeah not where my natural not where I'm naturally drawn to or anything.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

It's it's good when you don't have to suppress a gag response every day when you're going to work.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah yeah but other than that I feel very open you know I've started to lean I still feel very um easy with numbers and I I love that side of marketing but uh it's not something I'm really necessarily looking for. I you should look for that as a nice to have and something I can bring to the table. Um but yeah I I think I've tweaked my strategy thinking and brand marketing in my previous role and that's something I I really enjoyed was thinking about the brand as a whole and um and looking at that.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

I'm trying to think if there's anything else do you care about the industry?

SPEAKER_02 28:05

No. Doesn't matter okay I think I could find similar similar to what you were saying earlier, you know, if if if there's a great culture, if if the mission is meaningful um to me, then I can find I can find a a draw in there. And I'm also very motivated by doing a a good job. You know I don't need to be really aligned with the product or service or whatever um the purpose is but uh again I'm I'm very motivated by the people I'm working with and doing a good job and really making a difference for the company or organization. I'm motivated by that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Well you know I think I said last time that I truly believe that anyone that had the opportunity to hire you would be very very happy and and uh you know and to continue to be fussy right to get something to love to to interview them as well. But uh it's so good to to reconnect and I hope that you'll have a resume that you we can put in the program notes as well in case someone's going, yeah you could really use someone like that. And and you know we I again talked previously about Jim Collins one of Jim Collins's books about uh the importance of getting the right people on the bus. Once they're on the bus they can move around in into into different seats. And uh I think you know when you we can find a good person kind of go I will find a role for that person. So um for anyone's listening I totally guarantee that without having even met personally that Allison would be a right seat to get on your bus. So let's make sure we have that uh information available Allison thanks so much that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

I welcome any conversations.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

And and thanks again for willing to be a guest again. I'm sure it was kind of like oh my God what what are we going to talk about this time? And I appreciate you jumping in, which is another thing, right? Just you know just say yes and try it and see where it goes. And I really appreciate that uh go for it kind of spirit. So thank you once again.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Awesome. Thank you David.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

So it's been David Guthrough Discover Fresh Perspectives. Uh this one being the first time I've had someone on for the second time and all I can guarantee is that next week we'll have someone different with some different perspectives. So I look forward to having you listen in then subscribe now because on Fresh Perspectives every episode is an opportunity to explore new horizons and redefine what's achievable