Discover Fresh Perspectives
A series of short conversations, sometimes with myself, usually with others, that provide an opportunity to see every day events through different perspectives. The intent is to open up new possibilities for personal and organizational growth!
Discover Fresh Perspectives
Rediscovering the Power of Music with Phil Solman: Passion, Technology, and Community
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Welcome to another episode of Discover Fresh Perspectives! This week, David Gouthro sits down with guest Phil Solman for a dynamic and heartfelt dive into the world of music, memory, creativity, and community. Phil shares stories from his early musical awakenings in Coventry, UK, his fascination with the influential yet often overlooked band Sparks, and how music shaped his personal and creative journey.
The conversation explores the deeper impacts of music—its political power, its influence on our senses, and its evolving role amid technological shifts like social media and AI. They also discuss the changing landscape for musicians, the resurgence of analog formats like vinyl, and the collaborative spirit behind new platforms such as subvert.fm.
Alongside these insights, Phil reveals his passion for fostering community as a manager at local farmers markets. Tune in for a wide-ranging, uplifting exchange about the meaning, memories, and social dimensions of the music we love.
A Bit About Phil
Phil Solman grew up as a self-described "geeky boy with fuzzy hair and glasses" in Coventry, a post-industrial city in the UK. Although music was present in his life, it didn’t hold a special allure—until one Thursday night, when he tuned in to the popular TV show Top of the Pops.
On that evening, an unusual band called Sparks took the stage and completely transformed Phil’s relationship with music. While Sparks might be an obscure name to some, that performance left an indelible mark on young Phil, igniting a deep and lasting passion for music that would help shape his life and interests.
Subvert FM [Phil's profile page on the music platform owned by its community]
Link to a free song: Dear America (A Breakup Song)
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Are you stuck in the same old routine at work? Do you find yourself hitting a creative wall, unable to see beyond your current perspective? It's time to break free and unlock the power of fresh perspectives. David Guthrow, yep, still David Guthrow, back with another fabulous guest on Discover Fresh Perspectives. Today, my guest is Phil Solman. Welcome, Phil. Thank you, David. Lovely to be here. So, Phil, we met many, many years ago at something I was running called the Dialogue Group, where a bunch of people just got together and chat. And you've done so many different things in your life. And I'd say all of them, from my experience, have somehow benefited either other people or the planet or both. And today, let's explore something that I happen to know you're incredibly passionate about, which is music. So we could go in so many different directions, but Phil, how did you get passionate about music? Take us back.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I will take you back to a little geeky boy with fuzzy hair and glasses, 10-year-old, uh in Coventry in the UK, uh kind of post-industrial city in the UK, um, who listened to music but wasn't, yeah, I wasn't that drawn to it. It was there. And Top of the Pops was a Thursday night program that all the kids tuned into. And on that particular night, a strange band appeared and it rocked my world. And it's a band that I'm gonna say most of your listeners have probably never heard of. But if you're a bit of a museo and kind of my age, uh you probably will. The band was called Sparks. Sparks. Does it mean anything to you, David?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, not as uh music, not in a music context. It's kind of firefighting, you know. It's yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, and that's fine because most people haven't heard of Sparks. Um, but but after their appearance on Top of the Pops, which not only blew my mind, it clearly blew the minds of lots of people, they went on to release two albums that year in the UK, and there was Sparks Mania in the UK. There were crowds of kids like flattening police officers and stuff like that to get at the band. And they weren't they weren't like some boy band or whatever, it was two brothers, uh actually from California with their British backing band. And I'd never seen anything like it. I'd never seen anything like it. I'm gonna say that they have probably influenced more other bands in their time than many bands have, and this is why bands like Beck and bands like Franz Ferdinand sort of point to them and kind of go, Oh my god, that was the band. That was the band. And and what I also love about them, why and why I'm still excited about Sparks to this day, is in the last few years they've played the Glastonbury Festival in the UK, and they've played the Rose Bowl, I believe it is, in Hollywood, as in headlining. And these guys must now be in their 80s, they've put out about 30 albums, and hardly anybody knows them, but they still they're still doing it, and and enough know them that they can do big gigs sometimes.
SPEAKER_00So let me diverge for uh for just a moment because you know, when you said that they influenced so many other bands, and it's such a contrast today to today, where people want to be and and hold out a shingle to say, I'm an influencer, and other people come to them because of the influence. And you know, what I loved about what you described is they didn't come out to be influencers. There's something they did that as an outcome of that, yes, they were influencers. So do you have a sense of uh why what it was about them that influenced so many other bands?
SPEAKER_01Um I will have to describe, and I will suggest people do a little search for a song called This This Town Ain't Big Enough for Both of Us by Sparks. I think it was 1974, I believe it was. That was when I was 10. And and look at look, find it on YouTube or something. What you've got, the lead singer is nothing, you know, he's he's got a curly perm. He's singing in quite a falsetto voice, which was kind of unusual at the time, but it's his older brother sat at the keyboard, who basically to most people in the UK looked like Hitler. Which is now he thought he looked like Charlie Chaplin, which makes sense when you think about it. But he sat there like stony-faced and sort of just moving his eyes and his hands, like like almost like a little robot or something, and it it was just so odd. And the song had this little beautiful keyboard bits, this bombast, and it was like three minutes, three and a half minutes of like I have to say, a perfectly crafted pop song that just wallops you. And and like I say, I'd heard nothing like it before, and I'm not sure really anybody who watched the program had heard anything like it before. You either you probably hated it or you loved it. I loved it. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people across the UK loved it. And and there was Beatles Mania, but it was Spark's Mania for six months before the band decided after their second album, the two brothers actually just wanted to go back to California. So off they go.
SPEAKER_00So so so Phil, what did that with that what did Sparks spark in you? What what path did that lead you on?
SPEAKER_01It it meant that instead of my pocket money going to Sweetie's, which would be candid for the North American audience, seriously, um, it went to vinyl records. It you know, immediately uh it was like I'm saving my money, I'm going to the records store. And it it that was the path. It was as soon as you become the person who your money is going on records. And and sparks were the first, but after that there were lots of others, and it was just like this is what I'm doing. And the other thing, the other thing about this particular band was the lyrics. They've there it was Ron, the older brother, the keyboard player, the very odd one, um, who wrote very interesting and complex lyrics, uh, often funny, uh quirky. Um, and it that got me into trying to write lyrics myself. It got me into messing around with musical instruments myself. Uh later on, it got me into thinking I could be in a band because you know I'm I'm a boring geek at stool, and I might actually get a girlfriend if I'm in a band. So but but the music was always the thing that actually drove it. There was that other thing about it would be nice to get a girlfriend, I have to admit that one.
SPEAKER_00So that's what it got you thinking about. So, what did you actually do with what you were thinking about?
SPEAKER_01Uh I I suppose more than anything, it's just that so much of my thoughts were about music. I what I've since learned, because I love studying things like the human brain, I'm a big fan of reading about reading David Eagleman, neuroscientist, learning about the human brain. I think you know, at that age my brain became this thing that was focused on audio pretty much above all else. And it means that there are so often songs in my head, either my own or somebody else's, and sound is so important to me that I'm aware other senses are way less important. And so it I it actually shaped me as a as a physical being. Um years later, I discovered that I have no flavor memory. Oh and that only came up during that period of time with my darling wife ran a food magazine, and she'd say to me, Does this one taste better than the one I made for you a week ago? And I'd go, How would I know that? And she'd say, Well, what did the other one taste that? And I said, How am I supposed to remember that? And and I that I'm just saying that because songs and music and melody and all that is in the here all the time because that's what my brain is attuned to. I learned that taste, I don't remember it. The good news there is I enjoy taste, and it means I can enjoy a strawberry like the first time they come round. But ask me to describe what a strawberry tastes like.
SPEAKER_00So I'm just you know, I have to excuse you when my mind goes in a bunch of different directions. One of the things that occurred to me, isn't it interesting that we talk about someone's taste in music?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, it's perfect, it's perfect. Um, and you know, m my taste in music, I suppose, also then it happened you know in later decades to coincide with kind of doom and gloom. Uh the 80s fans like The Cure and Joy Division and and kind of the the doomy squad and stuff like that, um which probably coloured who I was as a young man then, quite quite cynical, quite depressed and things. Although I have to say I would also blame Margaret Thatcher for a lot of that, but but the music obviously didn't help. But what also happened is that at around 15 there was an explosion of music in my hometown, which again added to this thing of music is really important, and that was when there were things like race riots happening in the UK, and a band called The Specials came out of Coventry, my hometown, when I was 15, and they brought they their label, they had their own record label, it was called Two Tone, and everything on it was black and white. And the members of the band were black and white. And this was and this was when I was starting to have my eyes open to the the politics, whether it with a big P or a small P of music. So as well as loving the music, it started to then draw me into the that music can be more than just music, it can have uh an importance beyond music, and they were a very political band.
SPEAKER_00I could uh again, this is triggering so many memories for me, Phil. And um, you know, one of them back in the days of like the Vietnam War and a bunch of others, protest songs came out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And and like I still remember the One Tin Soldier and some of these other kinds of things that really make you you stop to think and the ability to transform the way that people think about things. One of the questions I wanted to ask you, I I'm I just want to check out this assumption that when you're listening to music, you listen attentively. It's not like a background thing for you focusing on. Is that is that true? Most of the time, yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't tend to want music as wallpaper. I I tend to want to pay attention. So so here's what I'm wondering. Because you've developed that as whether it's a habit or a skill or a preference or whatever, you know, does that translate into how interpersonally you're very good at listening? Like, is there any kind of a connection there? That's a good question.
SPEAKER_01Um I I honestly don't know. What I would say is that having I used to talk to my mom a lot. We we talked about, we still do. I mean, she's in the UK when we get on, you know, on the phone, whatever, we talk, we talk about all sorts of things. And she once told me, she said, as a kid, probably before the music became the thing, she was worried that I didn't have any hobbies. But then she realized that my hobby was talking. Oh she said, you know, uh any sort of get-togethers, whatever, I would always be yeah, yeah, yeah, talking. Now, that doesn't necessarily make you a good listener. Um I think I've had to teach myself to be a good listener. Um, I I think I think I'm still probably a better talker than I am a listener. Um so yeah, I I I don't think there's necessarily a connection there because because I think the the trying to listen and truly listen to what people are saying is something that I think I delved into later, a bit later in life, where I I really understood that if you want a good life, you've got to have good interpersonal skills. You've got to be able to have deep conversations with people, uh difficult conversations with people, wonderful conversations, and you have to listen. And if you don't listen, it never works.
SPEAKER_00So the the connection I see between music and that is when it comes to music, first of all, you care about it, right? And then you and you focus on it, right? Whereas listening to people, you care for whatever the reason is, for having a better life, you care, and that enables you to focus. So, you know, maybe it's it's not a direct connection, but the the need to care about something for it be important to you enables you to you know extract whatever you can from from either the music or from conversations with people.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, I can see I can see the logic. Yeah, the the because sound is so strong and important to me, um, you know, probably probably, you know, second only to sight, probably, in terms of my senses, yeah, that I'm going to uh listen carefully. And I do have to say, I'm I'm very flattered that my darling wife will often say, Oh, I'm I'm you remembered so and so. And I said, Well, you told me da-da-da-da-da you know, and uh and she's often it's nice. She appreciates that I listen. I don't always remember, but you know, she she she thinks I twig and notice things that she wouldn't necessarily think I would. So clearly I am listening.
SPEAKER_00So what I can imagine when our conversations might be, yes, I remember that was a wonderful dinner that we had at that restaurant. Don't ask me how it tasted, because I That's exactly it.
SPEAKER_01That is I could tell her, you know, I remember the place. And wasn't that when somebody walked in? And I said, you know, if there's an event that happened, and but don't ask me to tell you what what we ate. Right. I I know I like the restaurant, so I'm gonna suggest it was good.
SPEAKER_00So now let's go back to your your musical experience. So you know you thought about wanting to be in a band because you might meet some people and things like that. Did did you end up being in a band or multiple bands, Phil?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, I did. Probably at at the age of about 15. I finally told my parents, you know, I want to buy or no, I think I said I'm going to buy an electric guitar, because at that point I'd saved up some money. Um, and they they were, you know, I have to say my parents were smart cookies, they really were. Because uh, you know, my dad, he he he knew how to manage people, and I think he managed this such situation well. He said, Let's get Tim, who lives up the road, because he's a guitar. I knew Tim, yes, he's a rock guitar, let him come and have a chat with you so he'll help you make sure you make a good choice on what you buy. That's reasonable. That's when Tim comes along and he's chatting to me, and you know, Tim's recommendation is rather than an electric guitar, I should get an acoustic guitar and learn to play that because I'll be a better guitarist, and that will be the way to become a better guitarist. I'm sure my dad probably slipped him a tenor or something because obviously an acoustic guitar doesn't make quite as much noise as an electric guitar. Um, so but it you know it worked, and I became a so-so guitarist, and then at 16 friends at school, we formed a band, and there were already two that played guitar, so I said, Well, I'll play bass, it's got fewer songs. It it it's probably easier. And um, yeah, and then numerous bands followed. And uh there was a there was a period of time when one band I was in in Coventry, we were attracting pretty big crowds, we were playing, you know, for for a local band, pretty good venues, um, and selling them out, which was lovely, you know, some interest from record labels down in London that we'd go and visit, but nothing we were never we weren't good enough, and we weren't really commercial enough. And and honestly, having paid attention so much to the music scene, and at this point I was probably 1920, something around there, having paid attention to the music scene and been into it so much, read the music newspapers and all the rest of it, and learnt about the stars and the famous people, whatever, I actually absolutely 100% did not want to be famous. So I actually was not wanting to go and get sign a big record deal. I know you, you know, you you you've got to work hard to become famous, but I thought if I accidentally become famous with a band, I think I'm gonna hate this. Huh. So yeah. Well, you know, yeah, you just if you if you're into people, you know, I I at that time I was probably listening to David Bowie and you know, and and then other artists, and you realize that fame is a heavy lift for most people. And um, you know, and and musicians in bands can be famous and they can still be bit pretty broke. So it's you don't even have money to insulate yourself from the downsides of fame. So I I kind of pivoted at that point and I quit that band, and I got more interested in the sound of music and sound engineering, and I went down to London to do uh a course in sound engineering. So oh, wow, that's when I realized it was it's the sound. I was so obsessed with the sounds and what you could do with sound.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Like, yeah, it's you know uh the part about um not wanting to be famous, I myself strive to be mediocre to avoid the challenges of of that. And and I must say, uh, from a success standpoint, I've been incredibly successful. So so let's see, a couple of other things I want to explore. I want a comment. You know, what music is something that I think you can leave behind and come back to. And the reason I say that, there's one of my former uh colleagues in a consulting practice, former partner, he used to play in groups when he was younger. And then at 60, he decided he was really missing it. So he went back at 60 to start playing again with a bunch of other folks and had the bet and still has the best time of his life because it's about the joy of of performing. It's not about the accolades, it's not about the money, it's just being able to express oneself so fully after having to be so careful as a consultant, what you say in front of your clients and all those other kinds of things, just to let it out there. And you know, if you don't like the music, uh what's that I see over there? Oh, I door, right? Yeah, yeah. You can exit it, which is really cool. And and uh, you know, with uh a number of other friends, when they've retired or just pre-retired, gone, they've always wanted to sing but didn't think they had a good voice. Well, they joined a choir and are loving that, just being part of something. It's part of the social aspect of it, the community aspect of the expression. We're always so careful about what we say. It's like we have these steer steel bands around our arms and chest, and and to feel those removed and be able to fully express oneself, like it breathes new life into people, both on the performing side. Uh, you know, I remember one of my uh colleagues who's a deacon at Christchurch Cathedral, and and he was remarking uh through COVID, talking to the choir about just how much pain they felt not being able to sing for people. Yes. It's it's it's incredible. And you don't have to have a good voice. It's one thing that just to express yourself. Yeah. So, Phil, there's a couple of other things I want to ask you about. And because you talk about, well, some questions. So, what's what's the impact? What are the concerns? What are the joys that you see about the impact of artificial intelligence? No, first of all, social media on music, and then let's jump to AI and music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the one thing I would say, obviously, when I started out, um, there were a lot of gatekeepers to getting your music heard. So, you know, and that's just the way it was. So we would save up money as a band, pay to go into a local studio, you know, spend hundreds of pounds, which you know we didn't really have. Um, but then and then we'd tout this cassette round to the local radio stations. But the good news was if they wanted to play it, they'd actually pay you. They'd pay you, you know, some 30, 40, 50 pounds, you know, whatever. It was it was something. There was some money coming back. So and then you'd go down to the record companies in London and talk to them, some guy in this there would listen to you kind of and then stop it in there, you know, off you go. So there was all these gatekeepers. And what I would say is what the internet and social media has done, which I think is the plus, is it's removed most of the gatekeepers, certainly not all of them, but most of them. So that if you happen to be able to create fascinating, intriguing music, music that touches people, music that inspires people, music that people want to listen to, you can get it out now in a way that you simply didn't have the option previously. That's great. When I came back to music, which for me was my late 50s, just when the pandemic had hit.
SPEAKER_00And so sorry, Phil, just how long a gap was there before you came back approximately?
SPEAKER_01Um The gap was the gap was probably twelve or thirteen years, and the gap existed because of owning and running. Edible Vancouver and Wine Country magazine, which had to be a complete full-on thing. So but yes, after selling that in uh 2019, which is a good time to sell a business. Yeah, I have to say, um moving to Penticton because my wife's my Okanagan sweetheart. We'd lived in East Vancouver when we were together, but she wanted to come back to Okanagan, and I don't have any problem moving to the Okanagan. Um it was like pandemic hit, and so I'm not starting a new business. I'm not sure what I'm doing. But one thing I can do, as well as work on the house and do all that kind of stuff that I I'm allowed to do, I can get back into music, and the gatekeepers have gone because now I could pay, I think it was like $20 US, and my songs get released on all of the platforms you can imagine. Wow. And that's as many songs as I want to release in a year, and it's like 20 bucks, and I can reach the world. Now, in a way, that's brilliant, but on the downside, obviously, now you're competing against millions and millions and millions of other people. And so mostly you get overlooked because even if your music's good, even if you know, whatever, there's so much of it now. So, on the one hand, it's great, it's democratized access for creatives to get their stuff out there in a way that didn't exist when I was young. You you had to be spotted by the right person at the right time who's prepared to spend the money and all the rest of it. Um, but also just like the internet, there's so much of everything. How do you find the good stuff? It's it's a challenge. Um, so yeah, that's how social media's changed. I I'd say generally, generally good, but obviously with caveats um behind that.
SPEAKER_00So, how important, and thinking back to I had a uh podcast conversation with Melanie Decker, who's a wonderful singer, songwriter, just an amazing human being, and about how important it is to her for her to have live performance, you know, and and in terms of differentiating yourself from everything that's being pushed out on on social media, uh where do you see live performance fitting in? Is it necessary? Is it nice to have? What difference does it make? I think it's huge.
SPEAKER_01I think it's absolutely huge. Um, it's and it's one of the odd things, it's I don't, well, apart from one little special, I actually don't do live performance anymore. And it it's it's simply that you know, I'm not I create music solo most of the time. It's just the way I kind of work now, but I could but I couldn't perform it solo. And and uh and you know, and I did all my live stuff when I was a younger man, I worked, drove all over the country, you know, got home in the early hours of the morning, all that kind of stuff, you know. Um and I'm I'm sure I would I could still enjoy it, but it's it's like it's not a high priority. But I would say for most people who are doing music today, if you can't do live or you you don't want to do live, it will limit the likelihood of you getting any kind of meaningful audience.
SPEAKER_00If if that's something that's important to you. Exactly. If it's about having that feedback loop or I'm just fine just putting it out there, I don't care if anyone listens, I'm doing it just for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And and I fall, I fall somewhere between that. Ultimately, I do it for me, but I do, it is nice to get the feedback, but I'm also aware it's everything's a trade-off. Everything's a trade-off. I could invest way more time on the social media to try and raise my profile as a musician, but it's it's not important enough for me, and I've got other things in my life that are more important, but the making of the music, the working on the sounds, the crafting of it, the songwriting, and producing and remixing other artists, these are things that I love and find huge satisfaction in. So whether ten people listen to me or a thousand people listen to me, obviously I'd prefer it was a thousand, I'd prefer it was whatever. But it's really the joy comes from the creation for me.
SPEAKER_00That's that's not the number is not one of the critical success factors for success factors for your joy and sense of excitement.
SPEAKER_01No, no. It's like, you know, it's lovely if anybody sends me some feedback and they like the song. That and it's genuinely, it really is. But it's not the it's not the factors to why I do it because I know I I'd I'd create music uh uh even if there was no way to put it out there, but I could make it on my computer and play it at home. That's what I'd do.
SPEAKER_00So let's switch just a little bit. And you know, what what are your views on the impact on on AI programs like Suno or things like that, where you can plug in a bunch of words and tell with style and boom. You know, you can have something that's tailored, customized, costs next to nothing, you can do something different every day. What are your your current views on that?
SPEAKER_01Um it's it's a tough it's a very tough one. I would say that the most important thing for me is honesty and labeling. Uh whether that's music, whether it's art, whether it's food, whatever it is, I always push that. I think I don't necessarily like barriers being put in the ways of things. I just want honesty and labeling. So, I mean, when I create music, um, I don't use AI as people know AI today, but because I'm creating music on a computer with a software program from Apple and stuff like that, there's still a hell of a lot of stuff being done that is not me being a live instrument, you know, and I can put my voice in there and I can shift the pitch of this, and I can do, you know, all these things that you can do that are tools to change it. Um AI is uh is a different iteration because it can obviously just grab it, you know, it it can grab stuff from the internet and create a whole new song in in a minute or seconds or whatever. So the I think the downside to me is that uh the commercial platforms are likely to want AI songs, uh, and some of them are even moving in that way clearly because it means they can have music playing that they really don't have to pay anybody for.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and they're businesses. The one thing I do understand is business. Um, if if they can have music playing and people are listening to it and they don't have to pay royalties to somebody, uh, you know, then they're gonna see that as a good thing. Uh to me, it's it's always about what is it? What are you listening to? Is it was it a human? Was it AI? Uh is it a combination of the two? And again, there's lots of places out there now that are starting to try to at least give some honesty and labeling. But again, that's tough. I put out music, it will sound like a real drummer. The stuff I do, I'm never working with a real drummer. It's you know, I can I can set that up on my computer and because you know it's it's not difficult, you know. So, so I don't you know, in a way, that's a shame because a real drummer doesn't come into my house and whatever. In another way, that's not a shame because I wouldn't bring a real drummer into the house and put my wife through that. So they eat a lot, I understand. They do, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00Just you know, other things flipping through my mind and and how some things are you know are cyclical. So, you know, lately there's been a actually for quite a while a recurrence in in vinyl, and people putting up vinyl. And and uh, you know, I remember when there was the first transition from analog to digital uh in terms of recording and and how cool that was. And now it seems to be for people that have really good ears, you know, the the there's more richness that comes from an analog signal than from digital, to the point that now you're trying to get digital signals that mimic analog to get back back to that experience. There's been so so many transitions, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_01And and if you want to just momentarily get a little bit technical, because my sound engineering background is one of the things about certain analog technology, whether that's um uh valves in amps as opposed to transistors, go back, you know, or digitized sound as opposed to an analog suite, is for some reason analog tends to throw up odd odd harmonics sound nice to the ear, whereas digital can throw up even harmonics which sound a little discordant. And I and I and I'm sure most of this, if you digitize stuff to a high enough resolution, most human ears are never going to tell the difference. But if it's not digitized to a high enough resolution, people with really good hearing will go, yeah, that doesn't sound as warm or as rich or as you know. And the other thing about vinyl, I think, is is less that that it's analog and more that it's a physical thing you hold in your hands. Right. And I will tell a story now because this is a story that that helped me at the time my wife and I had launched a print magazine, and we thought we were probably gonna go broke. We were determined we weren't gonna go broke, but it was sort of like, are we crazy? Everybody's saying, do things digitally. And we had considered online businesses before we launched a print magazine. Um, but a young man came around the house, a friend of a friend, whatever, we're feeding him, we're talking about stuff, talking about music, and he talks about his vinyl collection. And this is probably now yeah, I don't know, 15 years ago or more. So, you know, it wasn't there there wasn't quite the resurgence. And so I asked, why vinyl? And he said, Look, and he held up a smartphone because you know he says, I can listen to anything I want on this anytime. He says, But when I really want to listen to music, and then he mimed taking it out of the sleeve, putting it on the turntable, putting the needle on. It's the act, right? And he was talking about, then he listens, he has committed, he's got the vinyl, he's got it out the sleeve, he's put it on the turntable, and he's got like 25 minutes or so to pay attention, then he flips it over, you know. Whereas when it's there all of the time, what's everybody talking about? The attention economy now.
SPEAKER_00People don't pay attention when it's easily available. So when you describe that, there's a couple things I loved about that story, Phil. And and one of them is that as you described it, I thought, okay, so there's a whole pile of our senses that get engaged. So our listening for sure, but also our sight, because you know the designs on album covers are incredible. The tactile feel of pulling it out, and maybe there's a sleeve, sleeve inside, you know, doing all that. So that's you know, that's that's many senses. And and sometimes even the smell, like the scent, like like uh we used to have some albums that they'd sit around for a while and they have kind of a moldy scent to them. You know, it's it's not just the oldies and goldies, it's the oldies and moldies, right? But there's something about that, the focus, like you say. I just absolutely love just hearing you describe that.
SPEAKER_01And and the other element for me, and this was something I always loved about vinyl albums, was if the inner sleeve had lyrics. Now, I've seen CDs where you can fold out a 20-page booklet and try and read tiny little lyrics, but I'm sorry, it's not the same. Whereas the an album cover, you you can put the lyrics on there, and and and I remember doing that. I didn't always want it to be, but often if it was a new album, and you know, I'd put it on and I'd be scanning the lyrics while I was listening. So clearly the words and the lyrics were a big part to me as well. So there's the visual, the reading, the the what the lyrics meant. I think they mean. That's the other thing, what I think they mean, and and and whilst the music is playing. So I and to me, that's one of the reasons vinyl clearly has had the resurgence that it has. Because, yes, young people can get everything. We can all can, but you know, young people have grown up where everything is available on a phone in their pocket, everything, basically. But if you really want to listen, there's nothing quite like putting something on the turntable and sitting there for 25 minutes and then turning it over. And and what will you hear? You will hear stuff that you would never notice if it was just zooming past you, basically.
SPEAKER_00No, that's uh yeah. That is so cool. I might have to no, if my wife hears me say this, I'll be I'll be in big trouble. Well, you're thinking about getting a vinyl collection. You know, and now there is the potential to be really annoying with vinyl collections because thinking back to my university days, if someone was uh in residence, was away for the weekend and and had done something that others found distasteful, you could kind of use a a bishop's hook to get into the room. I realize people can't see what I'm doing on audio, but and then take all of the records out and put them in different sleeves. Like that would just drive some people absolutely crazy. And you can't do that with the phone, right? You can't mess with those things. So there's opportunities lost with uh I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01I had I had a dear friend who would come around and and then he would just sit there while he was talking to me and he'd slide vinyl out, move it, and put it in somewhere else. And he was doing it on purpose just to wind me up because he knew my vinyl collection was ordered, you know what I mean? So, you know, uh and he was a dear friend, but he used to wind me up.
SPEAKER_00And I'm kind of wondering how many people out there listening to this either want to be or wish they could be a musician. And and uh I've certainly been that way. Like when I when I was in school and in actually junior high, high school, university, I played trombone, which I I loved, and then then stopped. And then lately I've been getting on these these kicks about, oh, an ocarina. That's kind of neat. That's pretty it. I could play that. So, oh, you can also get a bass one. And oh, and you can get so like I've got like I've got six ocarinas, Phil, they're sitting around. And then I thought, oh, you know, um harmonicas. And then, you know, chromatic, because they should be fairly easy to play. And then so now I have about four or five harmonicas. And lately, what am I on to lately? Tin whistles. So I've got so I've got some really good, some high-quality tin whistles, but I never stick with it long enough. So I'm kind of caught in this. I love so many different kinds of music, love just getting immersed in it. And I also at some level want to be a musician, but I'm getting my way of doing that. So I'm just I'm just gonna go back to simply appreciating it. There's there's one other thing that I'd like to explore in our in our time here that you put me on to. And that it was well, say a little bit about the way that you're now you're a group of people that distributed music in a different way, how all that came about. Because I think that's that feels like such a fabulous story of people looking at something that's not working for them and creating something that does. So maybe a little back. Now you've got people going, what the heck is he talking about? So I'll just leave it to you to describe what I heard from you that I was uh so caught up with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, it if whether you listen to music or whether you put out music yourself, you'll all be aware of the big streaming platforms. There's there's um obviously Spotify and Amazon Music and Apple Music, YouTube Music, and then it goes on. Honestly, when when I put out a single now, it's like there's like 20 streaming platforms you can tick yes, and there's all these streaming platforms all over the world. Pretty much all of them are in one way or another owned by Faceless Corporations now. Um, there was a great platform, and it and I'm not knocking it, it's called Bandcamp that was around, and it seemed much more artist focused, but now it's it's owned by some investment group and you know what whatever. So again, it it's the the musicians and the artists can end up feeling just like cogs in the wheel. So I'm not gonna lay any great claim to this, but everybody who likes music should head over to subvert.fm.
SPEAKER_00And I'll make sure I'll make sure you put that in the program notes so people can go back to it. So could you just spell that out for us, please, Phil?
SPEAKER_01S-U-B-V-E-R-T.fm. So subvert FM is a new music platform that launched only a couple of weeks ago now, had been in the works for a couple of years, and the thing that is completely different about it, it is a cooperative owned by the musicians who are on the platform. And that's just a fabulous concept in a world where where Spotify, for example, used to pay me, you know, 10, 20 cents or whatever when I got, you know, 15 streams, whatever it was. Oh, hang on, stop that.
SPEAKER_00Spotify calling back. They've increased it to 25 cents.
SPEAKER_01They've complained, they're complaining. No, most artists like me who don't have big numbers on Spotify, Spotify decided it was just too costly to bother sending us small amounts. So now you get nothing if you're below a certain number of streams. So, and that's the vast majority of artists on Spotify now get absolutely nothing at all. Whereas before, okay, they got a few cents here and a few cents there. I can see the logic, again, from a business perspective, but it doesn't make artists feel particularly valued, let's say. Um, so to have something like Subvert, it's it's not a streaming platform yet. It is a place like Bandcamp where you can go, you can listen to music, you can find new music, you can choose to, if you want to purchase the music, to download it so it's yours, or you can just go there and listen, and that's free of charge. Or you could become a member, and when you're a member, a lot of the stuff, my music and many other artists' music would then be free to you if you're a member of the cooperative. And and I do love that. I you know, cooperatives are hugely valuable, I believe, in capitalistic systems. They they offer an alternative to straight corporations. And again, I'm not anti-corporation or whatever, but there are certain things where having a cooperative owned by the members just makes a lot of sense to me. And this this is one where it definitely makes sense. So I I released a single that was for a period of time exclusively on Subvert. Um, I am probably haven't decided yet going to start pulling my music from other platforms because you know, there comes a point where you've got to get behind what you believe in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I was so incredible when you heard that. I'm a big fan of of cooperatives, the cooperative movement, credit unions and things like that. So that warmed my heart to hear about it, you know, and especially when you're doing it because it's about producing it. It's not about you know having to get something back and just the joy of giving. Yes. What a concept. If if we could kind of if we could eliminate greed and fear in our society, wow, how much different that would be. So before we go, Phil, I've really appreciated the conversation about music. I'd also like you just say a little bit about what's what's one of your day uh your day jobs, your current one and the other one that you just took on, just in case people want to come and visit and see you en person.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, I am now the market manager for the Penticton Farmers Market. Um, and I've also taken on at the same time the market manager, the the uh Naramata farmers market. So, so from a position where initially I wasn't doing it, I was an assistant at one for a while. I'm now manager of both, and I'm discovering that those two markets, it's kind of a full-time job. So there isn't actually a lot of time for music, but I am still doing the music. But uh, yeah, if you like a good busy market, if you like big crowds and loads and loads of vendors and food trucks, come down to Pentikton Farmers Market, downtown Penticton, close off numbers of streets, it's great. Lots going on. If you like something a bit more laid back, and then Wednesday afternoons out in Naramata in a park by the beach, uh stroll around, enjoy yourself with the kids. Uh, that's what we're doing there. Yes.
SPEAKER_00So I'm gonna make an assumption that the listenership for this podcast is all around the world. So Penticton is in the southern Okanagan Valley of the province of British Columbia in the country of Canada. So, you know, come on over, come and visit the market, have that experience, and uh and meet Phil. But hopefully, you know, maybe when you uh, you know, if you're driving and this podcast is over, to turn on some music and not distract too much from your driving, but really focus, really listen to what's out there. We, you know, we we miss so much. It's kind of like I'm just I was about to bring this podcast to a close and diverting here, but it's kind of like uh that that uh at any moment in time the sound from literally hundreds of radio stations is out there. Yeah. Right. But in order to hear them, we have to tune in. Yes. Right? So, you know, we can choose what to tune into, but tune into something. So thank you so much for being my guest, Phil. This has been a like a joyful conversation uh for me. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01No, and I've got just want to say to you, uh thank you for your dialogue groups all those years ago. You gave me wonderful help and connections and has always been wonderfully generous. And and so when you ask me this, I'll yes, the answer is yes. I'll do this. What do you want, David? And if you make it down to Penticton, seriously, come and visit and let us know you're gonna be here. So it would be lovely to see you.
SPEAKER_00My commitment is to do that this summer. Although this podcast may not come out till the fall, so it could be summer of twenty. Who knows? Who knows? Well, this has been David Guthrie, Discover Fresh Perspectives, having us my guest today, Phil Solomon. Next week, the only thing I can guarantee is that there'll be a different guest with a different different perspective on something. And I'll try to be a little more articulate in saying that next time. So thank you so much for being here today and uh hope you can join us next week. Subscribe now because on fresh perspectives, every episode is an opportunity to explore new horizons and redefine what's achievable.