Discover Fresh Perspectives
A series of short conversations, sometimes with myself, usually with others, that provide an opportunity to see every day events through different perspectives. The intent is to open up new possibilities for personal and organizational growth!
Discover Fresh Perspectives
Beyond Rules: Colette Shaw on Helping Students Learn from Trouble
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Welcome back to Discover Fresh Perspectives! I’m David Gouthro, and in this episode, I’m joined by the awesome Colette Shaw, a former college dean with a passion for supporting students who find themselves in trouble. From minor rule-breaking to more serious misconduct, Colette shares her journey, philosophies, and hands-on experiences working with students facing disciplinary actions.
We dive into the world of restorative justice, explore the pressures young people face today, and discuss the importance of creating supportive, non-shaming environments for learning—and for making mistakes.
Whether you’re an educator, a student, or simply curious about new ways to approach discipline and growth, this episode will offer fresh perspectives on what it truly means to support students during their most challenging moments.
A Bit About Collette Shaw
Colette always considered herself a bit of a nerd during her high school years, but college opened up a world of new experiences and freedoms. By her third year at university, curiosity (and the lure of the dance floor) got the better of her. Hoping to sneak into 21+ clubs before she was of age, Colette teamed up with a friend who worked the campus ID machine, asking for some plastic ID sheaths. In a burst of creativity, she tried to craft her own fake ID using an ironing board at home.
Though her clubbing career had to wait until she was officially 21, the adventure caught up with her when, years later, an administrator discovered the leftover ID materials in her lost wallet, revealing her brief flirtation with rebellion. Thus began her shift from being in trouble herself, to helping college students in trouble learn and grow from their own experiences!
Colette is the co-host of the Ms. Behavior Podcast. It can be found on Apple Podcasts and a variety of other popular podcast platforms!
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Are you stuck in the same old routine at work? Do you find yourself hitting a creative wall, unable to see beyond your current perspective? It's time to break free and unlock the power of fresh perspectives. Once again, I remain David Guthrow with Discover Fresh Perspectives. And today we are going to have some with my guest, Colette Shaw. Welcome, Colette.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, David. I'm so happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02So, Colette, there are so many different things we could have talked about, and there are a whole range that you provide me with. And when your eyes kind of lit up about what you really like talking about are uh students in trouble. So I thought that's kind of intriguing. Let's see where that goes. So, so uh the first question I want to ask is what do you mean by students in trouble? And then we'll just kind of take it from there.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I know I'm a weirdo, but I'm a former college dean. I thought two years ago it saved all my money and I was ready. I had the power to make every decision about my career, and I thought I was quitting. I was like, oh, I could just sit on my couch and do crossword puzzles and be very happy. But I told a friend, I never get tired of meeting with college students that get in trouble. And that could be anything from breaking a small rule that they didn't even know was a rule to violence and dangerous behavior.
SPEAKER_02Now, how did you come to, I mean, some people would kind of go, oh, I hope I don't have to deal with that, or run from that. And what what what was the trigger point that or the action point that caused you to want to run towards that? You know, you said you were weird or something like that, but you know, I suspect that it's more than just that. So what drew you to that?
SPEAKER_01I have a memory from being in college. I was such a nerdy high school student. I hadn't realized what a magical place university would be for me. And maybe my third year in college, I got caught where I was the offender. Um, I had a friend that worked at the ID making machine, uh, who I I asked, could I have some of those clear plastic covers, sheaths for the IDs? And somehow I thought in my mind that I could use an ironing board and maybe make myself a fake ID so I could go out dancing. And all the clubs, you had to be 21. And two years later, I was 21, and I lost my wallet, and uh an administrator found the ID sheets in my wallet, and I was a student leader, and she threatened me losing my job, and and I didn't know, like getting in trouble was such a amorphous, like just scary thing that everyone threatens you with. And I just remember she wouldn't listen to me, and I just wanted to tell I I was ready to be honest, and I think as I became an educator myself, I realized how that's everybody's story. They just we all just want to be heard and believed and understood.
SPEAKER_02So, so how would you engage with uh a student who's in trouble? Like obviously we'll have given any names, but just so so listeners can get a sense of mind, like what's trouble look like? And and beyond just acknowledging that, how do you actually work with that?
SPEAKER_01It's it's a lot of fun right now. So I picked up a little side hustle. So I thought I was quitting. I quit my my dean job, and I picked up this job where just 20 hours a week I'm on Zoom and I I'm given a steady flow of student names and reports of what they did. And so my my shtick is that I'd get to that Zoom room early and I am waiting with a huge smile on my face for that student to come on because I I know they're scared and if I can disarm them with my warmth. So I'll usually just start like, oh David, you're here. Oh, I've been waiting for you. And I work at a school that's um known for its creative arts programs, and I was a theater major for a little bit. I'm I'm a creative, I write, I I am, you know, we met through improv. Um, so it's very easy to just ask them what they're passionate about and what projects they're working on. And eventually I you can see their shoulders start to drop. And then I know, like, okay, I'm ready. David, I have a report.
SPEAKER_02So, Colette, how do they, how do they come to you? Like, what what's what's your mandate? What's the expectation that the administration has or that the students have when they're coming into this? First time meeting with Colette. Like, is it punishment? Is it something I have to do in order to continue on living? Or or what's the what's the the structure or the context for that conversation on Zoom?
SPEAKER_01I'm not afraid of the word discipline because we all need some discipline. Some of that is just knowing what the expectations are. Uh, but I I really approach it as an educator, and we are in higher education. So I wanted to, I want it to end with them being the adult that I trust that, you know, David, you're not 21 yet. You're but I'm not gonna follow you around, I'm not going to surveil you, but I won't feel right if I don't tell you if you keep doing this, we might have bigger worries about you, or maybe alcohol is not the problem, but you seem to get caught more than other people. So are you making some judgment calls where maybe that's something you could work on? And I've got resources. We've got a university full of free resources for you as you're preparing for your career, for your life after this. So I always think of it as support. Even I've kicked my fair number of students out of school, but I don't feel bad about it because they've usually demonstrated they need more help than I can give them here. Um, or they need a break so they can get a fresh start.
SPEAKER_02And so I guess I'm still trying to figure out maybe I I'm going down a rat hole or a rabbit hole or some kind of hole here. But uh, so do they get assigned to you? Are they told they must come? Is it a mandatory thing? And what are the consequences if they don't show up? And I realize there are a lot of questions. And and also is there an expectation that there'll be a plan on what next step's coming out of the conversation or they get a form letter that's probably not very friendly and it does make them nervous.
SPEAKER_01And I'm hoping that we can work on that. But if they engage with me, I'm gonna just keep hitting them with kindness. You don't have to come meet with me, but I would be so grateful. I I so much want to make sure that we work together to come to a conclusion about what to do with this. But if you decide not to come, I will honor that, I will do my best to make a fair decision, and then there will be some sort of disciplinary consequence. And that's usually just a word. It might be a warning, it might be a reprimand, it might be probation, but usually it's just a word. And that that but that word might give help them have some structure to know how how much uh how much leeway they have in their future decision making, like how much leash they have to work with. Um, but hopefully I can also assign some homework if they if they need it.
SPEAKER_02So I'm just trying to think of like what what might some of those words be? I'm just trying to crystallize it or concretize it for our listeners.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I said, um, you know, I'm gonna give you a warning where I might say, like, this is worthy of a warning, which means you're still in good standing with the university, means it's a great life lesson opportunity. Uh in the United States, we have a federal law that protects students' privacy.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh, so I can tell them if employers come, if graduate programs want to know what's in your record, if your parents want to know, it's none of their business without your permission.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So most things we can keep private.
SPEAKER_02Um and it's one of the consequences that they could be kicked out of school, or like, how much power do you have, Colette?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh in my current job, I uh we would assign anyone that's in that level of danger, there would be a panel that would make the decision, which I have opinions about. In my last job, it would have been me making the decision. But I tried to create a panel with a faculty member, so professor, and a fellow student. And we would sit in a circle, and I would say this is symbolic about we are the community and we are here to support you. Um, but also what you've done has impacted the community. And so they're also the voice of the people that might have been hurt.
SPEAKER_02Um so it sounds a little bit like I I've been familiar and work with the board out here on uh restorative justice, and part of that kind of sounds like a restorative justice approach.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Yep. I'm I'm known for as the the person that brought restorative practices to my last college. Okay. And I very much leave that well, you know, you you do that work, the the outcomes are longer lasting, it feels positive instead of shaming. It's it's wonderful.
SPEAKER_02So since I'm sure there's a lot of people listening, I've maybe heard about restorative justice, but don't understand what that actually means. And and the, you know, the umbrella, it's probably not what's what's the container for restorative justice? What's the the principle behind it?
SPEAKER_01The the way I describe it now is has sort of evolved into it it means that people are sacred, not policies. So the conversation isn't, don't you know you're not 21? Don't you know you're not allowed to smoke cannabis here instead of worrying about the policy, worrying about like, do you know what that cannabis is doing to the frontal part of your brain, like that really good part of your brain? Um, and do you have the information you need to make informed decisions about it? So I my hope is they learned something, but also I'm learning they're the expert on who they are, because they might say, Don't you know my parents are going through a divorce and my grandma's dying and my dog is sick, and I need a little weed to get through the day. And um, I if I don't learn something from the student, I feel like that can't be as restorative a process as me just hearing and judging.
SPEAKER_02Wow. That sounds amazing. I mean, uh what I like is the fact that it's because it used to be, you know, you got if you got sent down to the principal's office, I mean, obviously in high school, not in university, but it was not a good thing. It wasn't like, oh, I can hardly, hardly wait. This is going to be a growth-filled uh opportunity. But it sounds like the context for what you're doing is very much about we want to support you as a human being. And how do we do that in a way that you can make some some better decisions and take responsibility for the impact you're having? Is that is that fair?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, what one of my questions that I've adopted this year, I wish I'd used it for years, is just um, have you thought about what level of risk you're comfortable taking? And, you know, can you spend some time reflecting on that? Because we all take risks every day and you make a decision about where your personal boundaries are. Uh and is it just that you're gonna follow the rules because you fear getting punished? Or is it is there a greater, more noble reason to think about you know, people risk their lives for causes they believe in. Uh, and here we're really just talking about usually some college rules.
SPEAKER_02Well, it really is, you know, and uh it's it's about educating the person as opposed to, you know, punishing or correcting or things like that, so they can make better decisions in the future. Is there any opportunity to follow up with some of these students like over time to see, and is that part of the process, or that's just something you do because you're keen on seeing how they progress?
SPEAKER_01Sometimes sometimes the homework I assigned to them builds in a little uh touch point later, like, hey, have you uh met with that nice advisor that I told you about, or you worked on those executive functioning skills so you can make it to your classes on time and get your grades up. Um I there are a couple students I have regular coffee dates with that um we just hit it off, and I I'm in a little book club of two with a student right now that she sends me book titles, and I send her book titles, and we sort of like, all right, game on. Now it's your turn. And uh so I do think you can form relationships with some boundaries uh with students, and like we are all just humans.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's sometimes easy to forget about that in the heat of the moment. Um, Colette, you mentioned that you one of the things you say is we're a university, we have all kinds of resources available. I I would imagine a lot of people aren't aware of those resources until they need them and they're pointed out to them. So, what what sort of resources does the university have to support these students that you've been working with?
SPEAKER_01Great question. So many. Uh one of the big ones is our academic support area, which has writing specialists. Specialists work with international students who don't speak English as a first language. Uh, because a lot of cases I do are cheating cases. And now with AI, um that has increased a lot. Uh, so we have consultants with all sorts of, like I said, executive functioning, just time management, learning how to manage all the independence you have in your life. Um, we have free counseling, mental health counseling services, wellness folks that can help take a look at like maybe I am drinking too much, and who do I talk to privately to weigh that? I've created, I've trained AI to be a resource. If students want a more private situation where they can sit down with a bot that and say, like, I'm really ashamed I had to go to the hospital the other night because I took too many drugs. And um, it's been interesting. Some share their transcripts with me of reflection they've done with the bot that has been sort of amazing.
SPEAKER_02So can people come to you voluntarily? And I'll tell you what I'm asking the question. A number of years ago, I did a session for the BC School Counselors Association. And so I spoke to a number of school counselors just to kind of get a sense of what their world was like. And one that I was speaking to, and it was in a fairly, well, a very well-off community, and she said it's really tough because, you know, when I suggest the students go to some of these resorts at some number downtown, their experience is it takes forever to get in to see somebody. So I'm having this bit of a crisis now. And if I have to wait three or four months to see someone, you know, it doesn't do me any good. And then they tell their friends, don't bother going to see the school counselor because they're not going to be able to do anything for you, right? So so with AI, for example, you can presumably that's not an issue if people get access to that pretty quickly, which is great. In terms of accessing, accessing the other resources in your particular university, and I realize you can't speak for all of them, how how accessible are those from both um uh, you know, a distance and a and a time frame to get to see them when you recommend them.
SPEAKER_01I think according to standards in our field, they would say we're pretty responsive. Um, mental health counselors are there's a shortage just nationwide. Uh, but probably for students, they would say it takes forever. Like I'm I'm finally ready. I've been thinking about this thing and avoiding it, and now I'm ready. And um, sometimes you can catch folks, um, some campuses are generous with walk-in hours and appointments. Um, so you might have an immediate intake, but then, you know, when when do you get to have that next one where you really dig deeper? So it is challenging.
SPEAKER_02And can people come to you proactively? Like, you know, they're they're not sent there, but you know, I hear Colette's pretty cool to talk to and really help me. Can they like book a time with you to come, or do you have to wait for someone to be in trouble to come and see you?
SPEAKER_01Not as often. When I was a classroom instructor, I did have more people like, hey, my roommate said that you're that nice lady on campus that you like, you know, all these resources. Uh, but occasionally I'll meet a student in a contact hearing, and then a few months later they'll uh email me. Uh collect, I don't know, am I supposed to take Spanish or French for my language requirement? Like, I don't know, but what I do know is they trust me. And I do know I can figure out who works over in the foreign language office and get them connected. Those are wonderful funny moments, like the the odd things. Um and I I I actually I had one student always had so many troubling things this year, just a constant stream of little bit of getting in trouble, a little bit of getting in trouble. And um one night at about 10 p.m. I got a text message, and I don't text students very often, and I have a like a free Google text program to keep my info private, but the text just said, hello, Colette. And my all my radar was going like, oh no, is he suicidal? Is something terribly wrong? Uh and so sometimes even those types of things can happen, but I'm I'd rather have somebody reach out than not reach out.
SPEAKER_02And what, you know, because people come to you because they're in trouble, what would you say, you know, are the are the pressures that students are facing today maybe more so than ever, that are causing some of uh the the dysfunction or different function or getting into trouble? Like what what's out there in in their environment that would be helpful for people to understand before they judge too quickly?
SPEAKER_01Do you remember how hard it was to be young for us? And now you add social pressures, students don't know how to make friends, uh, everything is happening on devices. So there's many, many report, deep loneliness, um, pressure from home around grades, this fear about career, like picking the right career, and what is the return on investment, ROI. I'm so sick of hearing about ROI. And so students follow academic paths that do not have any doesn't light them up the way student kind of lights me up. They haven't found that thing that lights them up, but there's a lot of pressure to perform, there's a lot of lack of confidence, and now with AI, students can get almost addicted to like, well, this thing writes better than I write, and how can I shame my professor by turning in something that's not as good as if this AI helped me make it better? Like a lot of cheating cases start from a place of good intentions, I would say. But the anxiety and mental health stuff is it's it's oh I If I could just like have a magic wand and help students start from a different baseline, I wish I could.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and you were saying that uh trying to refer people to mental health folks, and there's a shortage of that is is uh is really, really tough these days. I I'm curious, how how is your role perceived by other people in the university? So is it oh she's got such a plum role, or is it, oh thank goodness she's doing it? Or do you have a sense of that? What what how people view your role? Like are they lining up to uh to be the next one in line? What's what's up with that?
SPEAKER_01People that get to see it from the inside. I I think most people come in just like you said, what what we hopped on this Zoom of um, well, I'm sure nobody wants to do what you do. And I I hear that regularly. Um, but our staff just met with another staff that we're gonna be referring um some of the disciplinary things to them. And um, so we were telling their supervisors, like, it's coming, can you help us prepare? And they were trying to think of all the like, oh, we could tell them it's gonna help on their resume, it's gonna help them with their professional development. And I was like, how about it's just fun? It's so much fun. People who get in trouble are by and large much more fun than the rule followers. And you get to sit down and talk and meet a new person, just like you and I met. And you it it's just joyful. You get to meet another human and learn about their life. And yes, do a little discipline.
SPEAKER_02Now, I'm not sure if if I want to propose this as a hypothesis, but I wonder from a pattern standpoint, if if sometimes the people that get in trouble get in trouble because they've been good students and largely ignored, and it's better to have attention for something negative than to have no attention at all. Does that is that possible? Any patterns?
SPEAKER_01I when you were talking about the school principal, nobody wants to well, I was the school principal's daughter growing up. My my dad was my school superintendent, and so I had to be a a good girl. I had to uh follow the rules. Or I I just I felt that was the unspoken you don't want to bring shame to the Shaw family. Um but when I got to college I took my first sip of beer. I still remember that night and just sort of waited to see if lightning was gonna strike me. And it didn't. And that then I wondered, what else could I try? And I it wasn't because I wanted attention, it I just I wanted to experience life and be able to make my own decisions about it. So I think there's some of that. When you ask too about motivators for getting in trouble or what contributes just wanting some friends. These people are going to this party or these people are doing this thing, and I just want them to like me. So I'm gonna go along with it. I'm not gonna wag my finger at them, like I and I think that's a noble thing to want to have relationships.
SPEAKER_02You know, I think uh like I think as a parent, my daughter is 26 now, and and there were some some challenging times when he was a teen. And in fact, I think a lot of people have that experience. And you know, one of the the conclusions I came to is that I don't want to shut, totally shut that down, that that testing of boundaries, because one of those things that may drive me crazy now is going to be really important for her to succeed as an adult, to push against the boundaries, not to break them just for the sake of of breaking them, but to see how far you can push stuff and to experiment and and and to be creative. Like I think it's there's probably productive and unproductive ways to do that, but the whole notion of of challenging boundaries to me seems to be pretty healthy for many reasons.
SPEAKER_01Yes. There's a theory of moral development by a scholar named Lawrence Kohlberg, and it shows the evolution of your ethics from avoiding punishment. So you don't take the cookie from the cookie jar because you might get your hands slapped, to then identifying as either a, you know, a good kid or a bad kid. And the good kids follow the rules and the bad kids smoke and drink and use swear words. But the higher you go, you start to break rules because some rules are not just. And then at the very top level are people like Martin Luther King or Gandhi, like people who challenged a whole society. And um, every once in a while you meet one of those students that will look at some rules like this is garbage. And and we have to learn from that.
SPEAKER_02And the courage to speak out against it, not have the fear of punishment or consequence. If it just feels so right for you, you know, it's it's harder to not speak up than than to speak up. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, I even think about like in in management literature, like there's a book came out quite a few years ago, The Leadership Challenge by Kuzas and Posner. And uh they talked about five practices of effective leaders, and one of those was challenge the process, you know, and and as a leader, you want people to challenge the process, but that's also probably one of the things that drives you crazy, right? If they like, can't you just follow the rules? There's those times. But it's like for for everything, there there is a season, there is a time to do it. And and uh if the first time you have to challenge something is when you're in your 30s or 40s or 50s, you may not be able to, right? How do we, you know, encourage like out of the out of the kids that get in trouble, there's probably some elements of that that it's important to hang on to. Like here, here is the good piece of this. Now, don't let go of that. However, here's some other things that that you might want to consider working on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's critical thinking. It's like one of the bases of higher education. But I worry sometimes in my field, when we look at undergraduate students, like, oh, is there anybody we want to really encourage? Like, who's the next college dean in the making? That often we pick the people that are like, well, David always does his homework on time and he always turns in his report on time. Like, I know, but where's the leadership? Where's the you know asking a critical question about why we're doing the things we're doing? So if we're only plucking the rule followers out, I I think that does a disservice to our profession.
SPEAKER_02So I don't want someone to who's a leader to say, okay, my vision is we are all gonna stay tightly inside these boundaries. Right. That would inspire me to get up every day, not.
SPEAKER_01Well, even when people talk about my feel and people in it, referring to like the good students and the bad students. Like, I don't know, I only meet with students.
SPEAKER_02Right, yes.
SPEAKER_01And as soon as we start, like, who am I? Who am I to tell somebody they're good or bad? Um and I I want people to be asking themselves that question and defining it.
SPEAKER_02It's a great perspective. I want to dive into something uh else that may or may not relate. And and uh, Colette, you'd mentioned that we we were actually on a call together. It was around applied improv. And certainly I have no desire to be an improviser at all, but I think that some of the improv activities are very, very helpful. So, do you use any of that when you're working with some of these students in trouble? And if so, how do you do that?
SPEAKER_01Always. We just had a uh, I also would say I'm not an improver. I just I use those skills in serious ways. Uh but like every meeting for me is an improv and it starts with that core, that foundational yes. Like whatever gift someone gives you as an offer to a skit or a conversation, you must say yes. And for me, that student is a yes. So when they show up on the Zoom meeting, it is yes. And if they tell me, I don't think the drinking age should be 21, like, okay, that's where we're gonna start from then. Okay, then what do you what are you gonna do about that? You you can do nothing, you can challenge it, we can call our local legislator right now and see, you know, what's the process for challenging that. Um, but it it begins sort of an improv, like where do we go from here? And how do we make sure uh each step is a a step that feels positive forward, um, as opposed to just I'm gonna need you to go memorize the rules. Right, write me a paper about the rule and how you're going to follow it from now on.
SPEAKER_02This and I I realize there may be exceptions to to anything that I say around this, but it's it's almost like for the purpose of this conversation, barriers be gone. Yeah. That's beautiful. Right. See where we take it. So um, Colette, before we leave this conversation, which I love, is it what are some things if there is a question I should have asked you that I haven't yet, you know, please let me know what that is. And also another one is what are some things that uh uh principles maybe for for thinking about students who are in trouble? Is there a way to reframe when they hear students in trouble? What's the image that comes up to mind to replace the one that might have been less effective in the past?
SPEAKER_01It's us. That person in that chair is us. And probably the more strident we are, it might be the student that is closest to us. I l I strive to believe that I can almost always understand where a student was coming from. If I do my job right, if I set the table right, that I can get to a point of saying, ah, I get it. Maybe any one of us would have done that same thing in that same circumstances, but here we are now. Like, are there life lessons that we could also can we evolve? I think that's the big one though, that it's us.
SPEAKER_02I sometimes when I'm having groups interact at beginning, uh, ask them to describe something they did in their in their youth that their parents never found out about. And and and out of that, and and uh how might that have influenced who you are now? And it's amazing the things that people come out with. And it's like, you know, when once you start doing that, it's like, oh yeah, maybe I wasn't perfect. I I remember one example I used that I used to think that uh if I was riding my motorcycle, I could drink more at parties because I'd sober up faster. Like, how lucky am I to be alive today? And I can assure you my parents never do that. And and you know, sometimes the uh it's our mistakes that we learn the most from. I don't think we learn a lot from our successes. We it doesn't force us to think about it. It's when we're recovering from our mistakes or from being in trouble that that builds our, you know, fills our our character and expands who we are as a human being. Right, right.
SPEAKER_01There's brain science that shows that when you grow brain cells, there's a thing called myelin that like wraps around the brain cell to protect it. And the way you build that my myelin is by making mistakes, like practicing something at a level where you must make mistakes, but it's not so hard that you just give up and quit. Um, but that sweet spot of mistake making, I yeah, I could nerd out over that. And like, how do we achieve that in our human work?
SPEAKER_02I remember, I think it was Tim Galloway who wrote a book called uh he wrote the inner game of golf, inner tennis, inner skiing, and things like that. And one of the things he said, I believe I'm attributing it correctly, that when people were coming in to uh to learn to play tennis, he had them focus on what to do wrong. Like, so hit the ball just out, hit the top of the net, all those kinds of things, and get comfortable with getting good at doing it wrong so that you can start to focus on what you want to do right. But to start to have to do it right out of the shoot, it's not very motivating, right? But I could I can do something wrong really well, right? Then I start to felt have a sense of agency and competence that maybe I can apply in a more productive way.
SPEAKER_01I love that. The only reason I was able to write a novel is because I had read, like, just write it. Don't worry, it doesn't have to be good. Just get it done. And then you can go back and fix it. But you're taking it to a totally different level that I would love to explore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I, you know, I'm one of the things, like our daughter, she's very, very bright, she, which is a problem, right? Because you get bored and and everything has to be perfect. And, you know, the cheat just would tell her, just write a draft, go back and correct it. No. It had to be right as she did it. So she was very, very slow because it was important to get it right. And, you know, how you can how you convey to people the importance of getting it wrong, and that they hold that as a value and an appreciation, right? So that's why I started this podcast two and a half years ago because I figured it's never too late to uh to try something new. And I didn't take any courses when people told me I should go to Pod Paloouse, you could do this. No, no, I just want to do it and make my own mistakes. And it's the, you know, I probably could have done it in such a way that I made money doing it, but it's the most professional fun I've ever had, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. And and that's it's never too late to to make intentional, conscious mistakes, knowing that it's part of part of growing. And you know, once you stop being curious and willing to try, you might as well pack it in. And you can be doing that until you're 100 if you're if you're willing to.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll tell you what, if this podcast thing, I realize you've done 150, but if you just burn out, you give up, you would be a great college dean. Oh, because you're easy to talk to, you make it safe to share things that are in our hearts. And that I have enjoyed listening. I appreciated that you sent me the list of um episodes that you've done. Uh and it they're all inspiring in different ways. And you bring that out of people.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you. I mean, part of it's because I so I'm going to give you a number from one to ten afterwards, so I'll evaluate your performance on this, but just let you no, I'm not actually gonna do that. But the way I measure success of of any of these episodes is that my guest has a good experience, that I learned something about what my uh I learn about my guest and also something that they're passionate about. And by doing that, I learn, I learned something new myself and I learn about myself. So I've had, you know, I'm batting a hundred. No, that wouldn't be very good. Batting a thousand, gotta get the right metric. So the only way that that I can fail is if I don't have a create a good experience for us to have a conversation that otherwise might never have happened. So there's there's no way to lose, is the way I look at it.
SPEAKER_01Well, you still, one of my favorite hearing questions is uh is there anything I didn't ask you about today that I yeah I wouldn't even know to ask, or that's really important that I wouldn't think of. And um, and you did that.
SPEAKER_02There you go. So you're on your way to be a podcast host yourself, Colette.
SPEAKER_01Well, I do host the Ms. Behavior podcast for other student conduct folks because I just love I can't get enough of this.
SPEAKER_02Can you say just a little bit about that? I'm sorry I forgot about that. Yeah, just a little bit about it. Not at all. I was intrigued.
SPEAKER_01I'm a fledgling. We have 30 episodes, not 130, but um, I just have a partner that has not done student conduct in a really long time. And so I just nerd out about it. And he offers kind of a fresh look at like the every person role of like, wow, things is this what's going on in our world right now? Or are these good practices? But we talk to people that are doing the work, but I also there are a lot of people that I'm just inspired by um that I steal from. I just, you know, it channels through student conduct, but it might come from a really different source.
SPEAKER_02So let's make sure when we close this off that you can send me the name of that podcast and anything else that would be helpful for people that I can put in the program notes.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. And that this summer, I uh the only thing I will plug is we are experimenting with a virtual book club where we're ditch ditching the traditional book and we're gonna use our colleagues' doctoral thesis. Um, so we're gonna use a dissertation as the book to start using this research that people have done about our field and putting it into practice. So um I'm very excited about the Just Desserts and Dissertations book club.
SPEAKER_02Nice. You know, I just and so again, I apologize for my mind goes when you said uh a virtual book club. I for some reason it's not virtual book clubbing. So, you know, a lot of times people get together to book clubs and and have these conversations, extract what's great about it. You know, it'd be fun sometimes. I I don't think sometimes we need to let out our negativity in a in a positive way. So I was picturing a book club, like clubbing the book, like this was terrible. Like, you know, look at this right, look at this grammar's wrong. They use the wrong tenses, stuff like that, just to get it out of your system. So club the book as opposed to a book club.
SPEAKER_01Just that was probably the disciplinary practice. My father, he had to give the spankings in my school when I was young. So um things have evolved.
SPEAKER_02Like and you know, I just think it about language when uh as as I do that. And you know, I think what do you do with your thesis? You have to defend it. Right. And it's still kind of like battle or military, a competitive thing, defend your thesis. You know, what if what if you came together with a group instead of defending it, their job was to strengthen it, not to criticize it, but to strengthen it. So it was a greater gift to give out to the world. That was really a piece of work that was going to make a difference. Right now, I think the whole notion of defending it is pretty deeply ingrained, but I just like contemplating about what difference it would make if we had a different context for those conversations. But um there, I'm distracting myself now. Colette, thank you so much for being my guest here today. Really enjoyed it. And uh, I look forward to seeing you in other places with with um not other phases. Well, other phases. Yours will be the same, mine will be the same. Who knows what else is going to be in that mix? And uh, and thank you so very much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, David. This was wonderful.
SPEAKER_02So this is you remember is David Guthrie with Discover Fresh Perspectives. There's very few guarantees of life, but one of them is next week that there'll be um another guest on this show with some different perspectives. And I hope you'll come back and uh join us again. Thank you very much for listening. Subscribe now because on Fresh Perspectives, every episode is an opportunity to explore new horizons and redefine what's achievable.