Discover Fresh Perspectives
A series of short conversations, sometimes with myself, usually with others, that provide an opportunity to see every day events through different perspectives. The intent is to open up new possibilities for personal and organizational growth!
Discover Fresh Perspectives
Striving for Balance: Jeremy Strozer on Letting Go and Contributing
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Welcome back to Discover Fresh Perspectives! In today’s episode, David Gouthro sits down with Jeremy Strozer, a passionate advocate for embracing uncertainty, balancing personal capabilities, and fostering community. From his early drive to make a meaningful difference in the world—even aspiring to end war as a teenager—to his current mission to help people “thrive in any future,” Jeremy Strozer shares insights drawn from his rich experiences in international relations, improv, and disaster planning.
Together, David and Jeremy explore the tension between what we want to achieve and what we’re actually able to do, the power of accepting and working with uncertainty, and the importance of collaboration and community. Along the way, Jeremy explains how improv can be a model for navigating life’s unpredictability—and offers practical tips for anyone looking to find balance and take meaningful action, no matter their circumstance. This is a conversation filled with wisdom, optimism, and the encouragement to embrace both our limits and our potential.
A Bit About Jeremy
Jeremy Strozer has spent much of his life driven by the powerful inner story that he must create, contribute, and achieve. For years, he poured his energy into producing and making a difference in the world, guided by high expectations and a sense of responsibility.
However, as time has passed and his physical capabilities have changed, Jeremy has found himself reflecting on his motivations and limitations. Now, he seeks a healthier balance between ambition and acceptance, learning to honour both his desire to contribute and the reality of his current abilities.
Resources
Improv Your Parenting: The Art of Turning Parenting Into Play! [Substack]
Improv Your Parenting on YouTube
Threads of War podcast on YouTube: Personal Truth-Inspired Flash-Fiction of The 20th Century's War
Threads of the War [books}
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Are you stuck in the same old routine at work? Do you find yourself hitting a creative wall, unable to see beyond your current perspective? It's time to break free and unlock the power of fresh perspectives. David Gathrow, Discover Fresh Perspectives, back today with some fresh perspectives from Jeremy Strozer. Welcome, Jeremy. Thanks, David. Great to be here. So Jeremy is on the west coast of Ireland. So we're a few uh time zones away, but he seems pretty alert, probably more so than I am. And uh so we're just gonna dive in here. But first of all, I have to say that when Jeremy first started talking, I found a little bit about him, just so many different things of of interest. Like he he did a wonderful podcast last year on uh on basically on improv and its connection to parenting, how how embracing this the spirit and the skills of improv can help you be a better parent, which I'm going that back to look at, and I'll make sure that's in the uh in the program notes. And he's working on uh some work called Thrive in Any Future. But when I said, so what are you passionate about today, Jeremy? And because that's his name, you know, uh he said, Well, actually it's it's about finding a particular type of balance. So that's what we're gonna dive into today. So uh again, welcome, Jeremy. And when you're talking about balance, balance between what? And let's dive into that.
SPEAKER_02Balance, thanks, David. Uh balance in the the story I tell myself, the expectation I have for myself, and what I'm actually capable of or actually want to do. And I don't know if anybody else in their lived experience has gone through this, but we tend to set ourselves up with these storylines and these expectations and these, you know, you have to create something, you have to contribute something to the world, you have to produce. And I've done that for a lot of my life. And I'm at the point now where my body is not as capable as it used to be, and I don't always want to or have the energy to, or even the physical ability to continue producing. And so now I'm trying to find that balance between what that story is and what my lived reality should actually be.
SPEAKER_00So let's dive into that. But first of all, those of you that are listening can't see Jeremy is actually sitting up on his own. So it's not, it's it's not like he's uh, you know, a crumpled mess, which be okay if he was, but he he looks he looks pretty darn good to me. But we'll we'll set that aside because that's hugely judgmental on my part. So, so Jeremy, if we could use you as an example here. So let's start with that. So, what's the story that you're telling yourself? What's the storyline that that uh if you try to live into that is causing some tension between that story and what you're able to do? What do you what's going through your mind right now in terms of your story?
SPEAKER_02There's so much I want to contribute to the world, so much I want to write. I I feel like I have, you know, 30 books in me that I want to put out. I feel like I want to contribute more and you know, have this sort of mission of like I I want to help kids have better futures, which is the improv your parenting work, is if you know every parent can know how to just play with their kid, maybe the world wouldn't be such a bad place. And I want to do improv and disaster training. And I know you you've interviewed um Mary in the past, uh, who's done some disaster work. Um, and the I I want to bring improv into every aspect of the lived experience of of every human. And there's so much there that is yet untapped. And on the flip side of that is that I also know I can't do all that, you know, and there's tons of people in the applied improv network and improv schools throughout the world who contribute to this space. And so the story I have been telling myself is oh, produce, create, distribute, you know, get it out there. And the story that I'm starting to realize I need to be okay with is you know, you don't have to. And it's okay to not do everything you're capable of doing and still live a full life.
SPEAKER_00So so can we go back in time a little bit, Jeremy? Sure. Because like you want to contribute, you do all these sorts of things. You want to make, I mean, I'll I'll just you know, hopefully it's okay to say make the world a better place. As a result of being on the planet, it's better off. But for many people, their objective is just to is to make a living as opposed to make a difference. So so when when did your desire to actually contribute, when did that start? Where did that come from? Because that's not a common experience that everyone has.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh it started actually relatively young, is um, I think it's before this, but this was the first defining event where I recognized it. Was I did an internship at the Los Angeles Times when I was 17. And every day I would read a newspaper because you got them for free there. And at the time, the the war in Bosnia was going on. And I was shocked to this was going on in modern Europe. How could this be in these atrocities and genocide and everything like that? And I set as my mission as that naive 17-year-old that I was going to end war. And so I went and I, you know, did my education and got a degree in international relations, got a master's in security policy, went to work for NATO and in the US government and like did all these things, like go end war. And realized over course of time, one, bureaucracy was not where I belonged. And two, I alone was not going to end war. Um, but it was this desire to help people who are struggling, suffering, or in danger be in a place where they no longer are.
SPEAKER_00So you know, this reminds me of a phrase of a friend of mine, Janice Stanfield, is a wonderful singer, songwriter, doing wonderful work in the world. And and the phrase in one of her songs, I'll probably get this not totally accurate, but um, you can't do all the world needs, but the world needs all that you can do. Yes. And it's almost like just because you can't do it all is not a reason to not do the little bits and pieces that you that you can. Yeah. And and you know, you also talked about improv. So I'm not assuming I have no idea who my listeners are. I don't track those sort of things, you know. I'm going to assume that, well, I'm not going to assume anything. So I will assume that they don't all know about improv. So maybe you could talk about the intersection with that. So we've got a number of things happening here. The, you know, wanting to make a difference, realizing you can't do it all, uh, embrace the principles of improv. How do those things kind of weave themselves together?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think the first one is simply acceptance, is accepting the reality that you are offered, whatever that may be. So whatever the world is today, that is the reality. And I could either fight that and have a really hard time and suffer, or I could accept that is the reality. I don't have to like it. I don't have to have that the reality I want, but I have to accept that that's the reality that exists. Um, that's the first thing. And then what can I do to add to that reality? So that those kind of bring you to the principles of improv of yes and yes being the acceptance, and is how do I add? And so that's where the work I've done hopefully comes in, is that hopefully there can be some parents out there who are better parents than they would have been otherwise because they're more playful with their kids. Hopefully, there's fewer weapons of mass destruction out there because I used to work on non-proliferation issues. Hopefully, you know, like there's areas that I don't even know I contributed because I supported somebody else in what they did and and gave them inspiration or whatever to carry on in the work that they were doing. So that's the adding, the yes and. And then collaboration is working. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna stop you just a sec there, Jeremy, because I uh for you, to me, it's more than add, because some people can can add, but what drives your adding is contribution, which I think is is is pretty important, just to modify that just a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's fair. It's what can I what can I put into this that makes it bigger more than it was before?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And but not just for you, for the world.
SPEAKER_00Like I like I don't want to lose that context. Yeah, personally, that's really important.
SPEAKER_02It is, yeah. You know, it is definitely not for me. I mean, some of it's for me. Obviously, I want to see the world in a better place, but the idea, and and I think where it comes from is that I there was a childhood in which there was a scared kid who lived in a very risky environment, and everything I have done since that point was about security, was about safety, disaster response, disaster planning, preparedness, um, and about community collaboration, building, creating a better, more positive, and you know, safer world for everyone. And it I think it all comes from that, like wanting to save that little boy, you know. And so if I could do that for other little kids out there and other people out there, and you know, hopefully never have them put into those positions, whether it be war or just bad parenting, like that's what I want to do.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's that's great. And I apologize for interrupting. I I usually allow myself like 17 interruptions. So you talked about improv and yes, and and then I think I cut you off. I believe you were about to say collaboration or something like that, Jeremy. It's another principle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. It's it's working with others to create something that you could have never created alone because all those brains add in perspectives, capabilities, uh, insights that you don't have, and that by working together, you create something that no one of you could have done, but it's better, more resilient, and probably far more impactful because it was created as a group rather than by any individual. And so that's where improv to me is has a superpower because when I come together with other people and we work on a thing together, whether it's a problem in the world or just a scene in which we're playing, uh it surprises us what we come out with. And usually, most often, if we're doing it right, it's much more powerful than anything I could have ever thought of.
SPEAKER_00So now there's a number of things we're going to try to weave together. Actually, I'll ask the questions, I'll let you do the weave the weaving. Sure, sure. All the pressures on the guests. So you've talked about improv. You also initially talked about that balance between, you know, what I what I feel I have inside me and the reality of what I'm able to do. And, you know, you talked about that being part of the principles of improv, but also of stoicism, stoic philosophers about accept what is, and that's that's when you can act. So now you're in a place where you've got all this this potential, this drive, this energy, I'd say, from from what I can see. How do you go about striking a balance with what you're capable of doing? And how much is it about finding the balance versus uh striving for balance? Because I think those are two different things.
SPEAKER_02They are definitely. Yeah. I don't know that I will ever find the balance. Uh I do believe that every day it's sort of what can I do today? What do I have the energy for? Can I write a chapter? Can I interact with somebody else and support them in what they do? Uh, can I just take a nap? And you know, any of those things. Uh, literally, can I walk through the house to get to the kitchen? And so it's uh it is what is the capability today? And that's sort of the acceptance part as well. It's I can accept that today I'm able to do these two things rather than five that are out there and that can't, you know, could be done. Uh, and then maybe maybe tomorrow I'll have three, and the next day I'll have one. And you know, and so yeah, every day it's not necessarily finding the balance, it's sort of discovering it and being like, okay, I did this thing, and I think that's what I can do today.
SPEAKER_00So I could imagine some people feeling stress about this tension between what I I want to do and what I'm able to do. Yeah. And so for some, that might be a source of stress. How, how do you approach it so that it's uh finding that balance is nourishing rather than stressful? I shouldn't make the assumption that it's not stressful for you, but it's it sounds like how do you do that in such a way that it actually nourishes you and and increases your sense of mental and physical health rather than as a source of depression because I'm focused on what I can't do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, I think, and I'm not gonna claim I'm able to do this regularly, but I think it's focusing on what I can do and what I've been able to get done, as well as what I'm realizing is I don't have to do it all. And there's lots of other people out there, and maybe the contribution I make is not the production, the creation, you know, the distribution of this, but it's the support of others in their process of doing those things. And, you know, maybe I can mentor others, maybe I could encourage, maybe I could just create a safe space where people could celebrate what they've done. And that might just be enough.
SPEAKER_00So let me press on this a little bit, Jeremy, and take it from maybe what you could do and talk about what you do do. And I realize I have to say that carefully because that has different meaning in some cultures. So, so perhaps you could give me an example or a couple of examples over the last couple of days where you have made some choices about how to spend your time and energy. If anything comes to mind that you're willing to share, just so people can get a sense of that would be great.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. So uh this past Friday, uh, which is just a few days ago, I woke up a little early and I ran a session um called Bragg and Tag with Julie Trell, who I know you've uh you've talked to in the past. And uh she she started this thing in Australia, which I think she picked up from uh a training she did with Raymond and Ted uh that you have just been through. And basically what it is is a lot of people who are work alone or solopreneurs or whatever uh don't have a lot of people to talk about what they do and how successful, just small successes, little wins that they have. And so she created this space in Australia and I loved the idea of it. And so I dedicated last Friday because it was like this is the one thing I'm gonna be able to do today. And so I ran that session and I was exhausted afterwards. It was physically depleting for me to run that. But it's one of those things that and it's a relatively light lift in terms of like, I don't have to create anything, I don't have to, you know, put out a lot, you know, do it, you know, build it. It's just sort of creating the space for people and then inviting them to share. And that to me was so rewarding because I was able to see the effect that it had on the participants of recognizing the value of having this whole group celebrate whatever win they offered, whatever small success they'd had. And that gave me like the fill for the rest of the day of like, I don't gotta do anything else. I did that, you know, like so that was a good one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh so could you just briefly describe what the brag and tag is about so people can picture that, Jeremy? Because I know it's a wonderful activity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a very straightforward thing where, you know, say you have eight people in the in the room, and each person shares just a small win they've had that week, whether it's I spoke to a client, or I literally created a list of clients that I'm gonna reach out to, or I simply got out of bed this morning and ate a bowl of cereal because hey, that's a success some days. Whatever that is, then the rest of the group personifies some aspect of that success, whether it's the bowl of cereal being really happy that it's got to nourish and feed you, or whether it was the client talking to one of their coworkers and being like, I just got off the phone with so-and-so, and they were awesome, and I'm really excited about bringing them in for this. You know, any aspect of that success that could be created in this kind of improv y playful way that helps that person celebrate having done that thing. And then usually what happens is the person who shared whatever success they had feels this emotional, like connection to everyone and this sort of fulfilling sense of I did something, and there's all these knock-on effects that all these people just created because of the thing I did, and it feels amazing to them. And then what they do is they just tag the next person to say, okay, now you share. When did you do this? You know, what success have you had? And then you just go around the room and everybody has that feeling of, wow, my success was so much bigger and you know, more dynamic and more human than I ever realized because of the humans creating those impressions of it from so many different perspectives.
SPEAKER_00So one of the phrases that I use with my clients is uh conversations don't change anything, but every change begins with a conversation. So if I could be so bold as to offer that you created a container for those conversations to happen. And I think it's the absence of those containers that uh end up having us talking about other people rather than to other people or about circumstances rather than, you know, working on those circumstances and the ability to create that that container and that fertile ground for that kind of potential growth that everyone owns their own growth, I think is absolutely fabulous. And that's a huge going back to a word that you used previously, contribution. So like just think of how many people were involved in that, but also what the spin-off is, is they take that out into their world. So I think that's a a huge gift in terms of what you chose you could do to balance what you're capable of doing and what you were able to do at that moment. I I think that's wonderful. Thank you. I appreciate that. Gosh, what are we going to talk about now? So, you know, maybe, you know, you you talked about um this work that you're doing on thriving in any future. I have a high that's somehow connected to what we've been exploring. Could you say a little bit more about that, Jeremy, please?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. So I uh through improv and through my lived experience and through my career, I've realized that I have played with uncertainty my entire life. And I want to offer everyone in the world the ability to play with uncertainty because I feel like so many of us fear uncertainty. We try to control situations, we try to control environments, we try to control the future. And you know, that's not gonna work. But what we can do is we can say, oh, here are available futures that might arise. How can I set myself up so that no matter which one actually occurs, I'm okay? Or maybe not even just okay. I'm actually doing pretty well. And so there's a lot that we can do in that space is learning how to accept the offers that we've been given, learning how to build off of those and uh embrace that uncertainty and say, you know, I'm I'm cool if nothing goes the way I thought it would, and I'll figure it out. And I think it goes back. Um, I used to work a lot with the defense community, and I was a big fan of studying World War II and uh military planning and strategic planning. And I love that Eisenhower had this whole really robust planning process, but he also knew that the plan itself wasn't the important thing. It was the ability to plan that was the most powerful tool he had. And so he specifically said plans are meaningless, but planning is essential. And I feel like for our lived experiences, so many of us have these plans, but yet it's not the plan itself that's the thing that we really should hold on to. It's the ability to plan, the preparedness for whatever occurs. And then the uh knowing that I can respond to that in a positive way, not react, but literally respond because I'm confident in my ability to be like, I can handle. Situations and I'll be okay whatever sort of arises, no matter what it is. Now, admittedly, you know, if there's like some massive nuclear war and you're incinerated, yeah, you're not going to thrive in that future. But otherwise, I think humans can really do pretty well individually and collectively by embracing and playing with the uncertainty that we face.
SPEAKER_00So I remember many years ago, Keith Spicer wrote a book uh that that you remind me of called uh The Winging It Logic System. And I actually got someone kind of jumped all over me when I said in a particular uh activity, I was just winging it. Said, you know, we get you know, we get I and and Spicer's view of winging it is that you have to be so well prepared that you're able to wing it and and to be not responsible, but response able. So my confidence is that I don't know what it is, but I I truly believe that I will be able to respond to it somehow, right?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah, I I took a lot of training with uh Second City I uh improv Olympic IO, um, Annoyance Theater in Chicago over many years. And one of the things that really was drilled into me is improv is not just throwing a bunch of people up on stage and saying, make it all up. Improv is intensive training about how to accept, how to respond, how to work together to build. And that's where I think a lot of people get intimidated by the idea of improv is they feel like they're just gonna be up there alone, you know, like now you have to be witty. It's like, no, I've had years of training to be, you know, working with this team to create this thing that none of us know what's gonna happen, but we're all confident because we can believe in each other, rely on each other, and know that working together, we'll get wherever we need to go. And I think that goes right to what you were saying is you sort of have that confidence that, yeah, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm okay with that not knowing, and we'll figure it out and it'll probably be fine.
SPEAKER_00So I've I've been working with uh this this this notion of you know, you you hear about it's it's often misdescribed the amygdala hijack and all that sort of stuff where in response to surprise, there's the you know we hear about fight, flight, fawn, flock. There's a bunch of of Fs that basically keep us out of our ability to be response able. And so I've been uh trying to get people to embrace this phrase. Uh, you won't people won't be able to to uh to see it, but the phrase, I can work with this. So my immediate response to surprise without thinking is I can work with this. It's not can I, it's not how I can work with this. So I start from position of agency because I know ultimately I'm gonna have some influence over what happens. And if I don't, someone else is gonna be. But to start with, I can work with this. And from there, once I'm calm and I have agency, I can decide what and how and whether. And it's not that I have to, but I start from I can. And I think that's the training that that you were talking about is is what I get is, you know, I my confidence is I can work with this. It does not matter what it is. I can work with this. And then maybe the, you know, on the next side, also I've been making these little wooden coins on the other side. It's okay now, I will work with this. So, first of all, I can, then the commitment to do something with it. And I think it's so empowering for people to start with, I can work with this, to have that improv mindset that whatever happens, I can work with it. And we're gonna do it together. And as you said, it's gonna be better with both of us doing it than just one. Like every day there's an opportunity to improv. I never know from one minute to the next what's gonna happen. The bell's gonna ring, gonna be a flash or whatever. And we're constantly improvising. But I think the fear people have is I have to be an improviser and I have to be funny. And how much of a barrier is that to them being just to say, I can work with this?
SPEAKER_02Oh, totally. I I'm behind you 100%. I love I can work with this because that if we just engage with the world with that as our mindset individually and collectively, oh my God. I mean, it would be such a better place because there would be so much less fear, less insecurity, less anxiety. And that is what drives so many of the things that make the world a harder place to engage with in the first place. Yeah, I love that. And I I love the next step is I will work with this because then it's the commitment, not only am I capable, but now I'm engaging in it and I'm gonna actually do the thing. And I think that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00So I, you know, I think of things that can cause a lot of anxiety, either conscious or unconscious, low-level anxiety, which is like the war in Iran and so many things going on with the world. And and so, how do I I think how can I say that I can work with this? And I can't affect what's going on over there, but I can sort of choose to have a positive influence on the people that I engage with. I can create the kind of environment that if if everyone, if that was to ripple out, would be, would be better. So I can't control all that stuff out there, but I can't troll, control moment to moment. How do I uh live the kind of way that I think if everyone were to do that would be better? But for sure, it's gonna be better for me and the people I interact with because there's if we only focus on the things we can't do anything about that can lead to depression, anxiety, all those kinds of things. And basically what I've done is build a bunker and say, you know, I'm just there's nothing I can do. I have no agency, I'm just gonna be a victim, whatever's going on out there. And and I don't handle that very well myself.
SPEAKER_02I don't think any human would. Yeah. Uh you we can't live in that life. No, and I think your approach is right on is where can I have impact? Where can I have influence? Where can I push in whatever direction or enable others to do so? And you know, it's funny, is my wife is uh is a social worker, and I came into the relationship back in my early 20s, big strategic planner, like very, you know, outward thinking, and she was so human focused, so like here, now, I'm with you, what do we do? And over the course of our now over 25-year marriage, uh, we I have moved a lot closer in her direction in terms of that I'm working with humans, there's a human story here. What can I do in this moment that is not this huge world-changing thing, but it might help this person, you know, that's in the room with me. And if I could do that and they are in a better place because of that, or we together are in a better place because we're working together to do something, then yeah, that's not maybe it it does or pull out, and everybody can you know build off of that because we can't control everything. And I I've I've definitely learned that in my career, is like I'm not gonna go change the world myself. But there's six, nine billion of us, something like that. Like, there's a lot that can be done if we figure out a way to to collaborate and work together to do it. And there's a very small number of us that are trying to do bad things, it's like, well, if the rest of us do good things, I think we can overpower that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00They're the ones that that gather the most uh air time, but certainly not the majority. So so if there are some people listening at the moment, I hope there's like millions of people listening to this, Jeremy. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna put that out there.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_00And they were, you know, maybe they were thinking, you know, I'm kind of in the same spot. I know I could be doing more. I'm not sure I have the energy to do it. They're kind of stuck there. Or someone that wants to thrive. If you could give two or three practical tips. So when this podcast is over, what is what are some specific actions that a person could take or thoughts that they could have that would help them move ahead, uh, be more in control of that sense of balance and more likely to be able to thrive in whatever their environment is. I know that's a lot of pressure on you, Jeremy.
SPEAKER_02Well, what I love about this is it's almost like a therapy session for me, because by answering that question, I'm sort of giving myself the answer. Uh, I think a couple of things that might be helpful for folks is to look for community. Find those with whom you have some kind of shared value, interest, um, activity you enjoy, whatever, and connect with them because one aspect of thriving is to not be alone. And if so, you if you could find community, that will definitely help. In terms of that balance, uh sorry, Jeremy.
SPEAKER_00I this is one of my 17 left interruptions. So sure, I would just suggest if you can't find the community rather than getting frustrated about it, create one.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. Okay, absolutely. If you have something and you can't find it out there, yeah, build it. You know, because yeah, I mean, other people will probably like that too. Um yeah, I I think that's a good point. I think in terms of the balance, something I I would suggest to folks is in and I kind of alluded to this before, is you don't have to do everything you are capable of doing in order to be the fullest you. And so if today you have the energy to do nothing, okay. If tomorrow you have the energy to do one thing, great. You know, like it it's okay if you don't do everything every day. Um and then in terms of the the thrive in any future, uh the the one lesson I would take from from that work that I'm putting together is that uncertainty is an invitation for creativity. And so if you are confronted with uncertainty, this is your chance to say, oh, what can I do? How can I play with this? You know, and I think that goes back to your coin is I I can uh I forget the exact phrase, but I can work with this. I think it was. Yeah, it's you know, so the the question then is how can I work with this? How can I play with this? How can I create something out of this uncertainty? And that will drive you through it rather than being scared of it. And I think that that's probably the key thing I could give to anybody is just ask yourself, how can I do this? And chances are your brain will come up with answers, you know, or if you're working with others, your collective brains will definitely come up with answers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, really good suggestions, really good suggestions. If people choose to accept them, of course. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Jeremy, this has been fabulous. I you know, I would love to actually sit down in person with you sometime and for about like a 12-day conversation nonstop, maybe only for food and other biological needs. But uh thank you so much for your willingness to be uh to be a guest on Discover Fresh Perspectives. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity. This has been David Guthrow, Discover Fresh Perspectives. There's very few guarantees in life. I know this taxes and death eventually don't want to think about that now, but one other guarantee is that next week there will be another episode with someone totally different with some different perspectives. Uh, something for you to embrace and consider. So thanks for listening and uh and do come on back again. Subscribe now because on fresh perspectives, every episode is an opportunity to explore new horizons and redefine what's achievable.