How to go from 1 Children's Day Nursery setting to SIX in 12 years - The Munchkins Journey.Untitled Episode

I sit down with Jo and Lizzie from Munchkins Day Nurseries in Essex to discuss their biggest lessons (good and bad) on their way from 1 to 6 settings in 12 years. 

It's a great story and one every nursery owner should listen to. 

They tell me how there work load has lightened the bigger they have got and the time they nearly bought the wrong building!

It's a great listen. Grab a pen and paper and enjoy.

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Transcript

 Jo, you start and then I'll finish. Okay, I'll start. We're sisters and we're based in Essex and way back in the day we had a dream to  open a nursery together.  And the way that we did that,  I'll probably come on to later how it all started, but we started with one in Essex,  which we then subsequently sold, a couple of years later, and we currently have six nurseries. 

Awesome. Awesome. So  what, what made you to get into the first nursery? Because obviously, it's not the sort of thing that most people get into. Obviously, we're well into it between us. I think we got sort of 11 settings  between us. What, what was the first bit and why? Why the first one?  So the first one I was teaching at the time.

So that was my background and Joe was already, was, a partner in another nursery business and it just sort of came together, I think with our experience with Joe's childcare background and mine was teaching and I was mainly taught in reception.  it just sort of seemed to work. Plus also as well, we both felt that I definitely wanted to have a change of career.

I'd been teaching for 25 years. I felt that there was more in my ammo. There was more that I could do. And I was getting a little bit frustrating with the teaching sector and the strengths that I had. And it like the opportunity came up.  we had to invest Joe's  Part of Joe's pension, also we invested in my husband's pension,  to buy the first property that we had. 

so it was a bit of a risk, a bit of a risk to begin with. So, I'm going to come on to how you funded that in a minute, but did you, prior, prior to that, did you have any business experience, either of you?  No, I didn't. Not particularly, I worked for, before going into the nursery business, I actually worked for my brother who's got pubs and I learned how to do all of his accounts.

I was gonna say, you learned how to drink all the wine. I definitely learned how to drink all the wine. I was really good at that. I was a professional at that. And I learned,  how, how accounts work and how to run accounts.  I then started a nursery business with a couple of friends and sort of learned my trade over that couple of years, really.

That's the way that I look at that first business.  sort of started with nothing and I really learned my trade and how, I wanted to run a business,  and, and, and I formed a vision that Lizzie shared with me. And, I had found out by accident that you could invest, because I had no money whatsoever.

I literally no money and neither did Lizzie,  found out, and I still don't know how that you could invest a pension, into a commercial property. So that was the way that we managed to fund our first nursery with very little. We both had to take second jobs. When we first opened, we decided to put a manager in. 

And then we both took second jobs. So we were overseeing the nursery and working as well houses So so how much so how much did you get together then? How much was the first nursery taught me through the deal? How did you make it work? Because obviously it's a hell of a risk, isn't it putting your pension funds into into into into  a business my first nursery was with with two loans from a couple of commercial brokers and  did a little bit, a little bit of a thing where they both completed at the same time, so they didn't work on my credit file.

So we, we played the game to raise 50, 000 at the time, which looking back was scary, but looking at it now was just like credit card money.  it's amazing how your mindset changes.  I know we're going to come on later to your refurbishments and what you're doing now and all that sort of thing and 50 grand is a drop in the ocean.

It's half a garden, isn't it? What did you buy it for? How did the deal stack up?  So, originally,  because,  I had this pension pot and I wanted to buy a commercial property, we happened upon this nursery quite by accident. We had actually booked to go and see a nursery that was around the corner, and we went to the wrong place.

And we sat there. Yeah, honestly. Yeah. And we sat it is just about, it sums us up really, doesn't it? Yeah.  The accidental business leader. That's a good title. Yeah, yeah.  so there's two, there was two nurseries very close to each other. Both that were in ex residential properties, quite ironically. And we sat outside this nursery waiting for somebody to rock up.

And then all of a sudden we were like, hold on a minute. This picture doesn't look like where we're sitting outside.  Turns out that the nursery that we were sitting outside. was failed and shut. So,  I, I looked up,  on Land Registry and found out who owns the building and contacted them and put the wheels in motion.

And originally we had the idea, didn't we Lizzie, way back in the day that we were just going to buy the building and actually rent the building out of the nursery. To give it to somebody else to set up and run. Yeah, and we've, and Then, as we were going through the process, I started to say, why are we doing that? 

That's stupid. We can do it.  which is, yeah. And, yeah. I don't, yeah. And that, that's what we did. So we decided that we would run it.  Lizzie, had to carry on teaching. She did supply teaching. I went and did some work for a charity opening up nurseries for them and so that we could fund ourselves.  And,  then along came number two, didn't it Liz?

So how much was the first nursery? What did, are you, are you okay to talk numbers? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. So, so what did, what did you buy the building for? Oh,  350, 000 I want to say. And what year was this?  This was 12 years ago. Okay.  Yeah, a fair chunk of cash. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it wasn't, it wasn't that cheap.

But what we did is obviously we bought the building with our pensions, and then Munchkins rented the building,  from from our pension. So it was our money that just went round in a big circle. That's such the best way to do it. You know, if you can get your hands on a freehold, buy it for your pension, save a bus load of tax, it's a great investment for your pension vehicle.

And of course, the rent goes straight back into your pension pot. Yeah, absolutely. So it was, you know, it was, for us, it was a no brainer  and we did, in all honesty, I can hold our hands up, can't we Lizzie, and say we didn't really sit back and think about it. We were like, this is a great idea, let's do it. 

Love it. And the timescale between sitting outside the wrong nursery and buying the right nursery.  Well, it was relatively quick. We had to, so planning permission, it turned out was only on the ground floor, not on the first floor. Okay. So we had to put in planning for the first floor because you can't.  and I think that's a great point and I think our listeners and viewers are going to,  I know plenty of people have fallen foul on that they wanted to buy a shop or some offices and there's flats upstairs.

So it's great. We've got dual income, but your pension people are going to be no, no, no, no, no. It's got to be 100 percent commercial business and no residential element whatsoever. Yeah. So, so we had to go through that process of getting change of use, which was relatively straightforward. And so I would say probably from beginning to end, three months, Lizzie, including three, four months.

Yeah. It was quick because it was an empty building. They've gone, but you know, they've gone out of business. Yeah. Brilliant.  So that was 12 years ago. So that was what, 2012?  Something like that. We get in a muddle as to when we started. 14  years ago. Who knows? It's your age.  It is my age. So that's interesting, great, great way how you funded it.

So that was obviously your success because then along came nursery number two.  And that was Wythe and Hoe.  so that's,  sort of North Essex, the other side of Colchester.  And it's a lovely little village. In fact, Joe and I hadn't even visited it. We'd never been there before. We'd seen it on the train line, but we'd never been there. 

So we sort of drove down there and this one was a two room, used to be a sports pavilion.  Really, really run down preschool.  it was term time only four and a half days a week. It was very funny hours it was open for.  So we decided that we wanted to. take that, but we wanted to turn it into full daycare, sort of ASAP.

ASAP. So we had to take out a loan.  I think it was 70, was it 70, 000, Jo, our loan? No, no, no, our loan was 100. But we actually bought it for 70 in the end. The 17th. We had absolutely no money to do it up and it really needed so much doing so it was over like the summer holiday period so we shut it down and we decorated it and we did the whole thing ourselves including my husband, the children.

So you're super hands on then, super hands on even then. Yeah, 100 percent hands on. Yeah, you literally roll your sleeves up and put your dungarees on and get down and dirty. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And then we reopened it. So,  we two peed over the team and originally they were all four. I think anyone listening to this and who has done a preschool to a nurse full time  probably had a similar experience. 

I'm putting my hand up for those listening on the podcast.  Yeah. And, oh yes, they thought it was a great idea, oh it was lovely, and also it was a Montessori, it was also a Montessori. So you literally changed it 100 percent then? We changed it. We still wanted to have the essence of Montessori, but not as it was a very, very strict Montessori.

We still wanted, we liked the essence of it, because our nursery's going on, You know, since then had definitely I've got a flavor of Montessori, but we just wanted to loosen things up a little bit. It was very much the old styley where the children couldn't access the outside area until they'd done their two hour work cycle. 

And you're talking three and four year olds, you know, blazing hot day and they weren't allowed to go outside anyway. So,  the team were all, All for it. And, Joe and I were very much at, when we took on Wiffenhoe, we realized then that we couldn't continue our other jobs. Yeah. So, so this is really interesting.

You've, you've, you've led me almost seamlessly into, into the question that I was going to ask next, because obviously you've now expanded into two settings.  you probably got two sets of managers. You're working second jobs as well. to make ends meet. So the, the pressures are doubled. Yeah. So, so how did you, how did you get over that element of then going, do you know what, we really need to double down on these nurseries and focus on, on it.

Was that a difficult decision? Because obviously you've got the comfort zone of money coming in. Did you simply look at your numbers and it's like, well, we can afford to do this, or do you need to do it from a workload point of view? We literally just, we just took a big gulp and we just said, right, we've got to do this.

But also what we did, we then,  worked at Wythe Ho. So we, we actually went, well, we, I actually went into Wythe Ho to actually work it. And Joe very much sort of oversaw both of the nurseries. which worked very temporarily.  Badly or good?  We had a big revolt at the Wythe Hoe Nursery from the tick.  So the staff are revolting, are they?

Yeah. It won't go into the ins and outs of it, but it basically brought me and Joe to tears and  virtually a nervous breakdown, where we ended up losing all of the staff, I think two staff members, for various reasons.  so while I was  In literally, bearing in mind, this nursery is over an hour away from us.

So we were getting up really early in the morning, driving down there,  working a full day, 10 hour shifts,  then cleaning, cleaning the nursery, then going home to do it all again. It was, we would drive back home in tears. Because we were both exhausted. We were shattered. And also the, the team members  were making it plainly obvious that they really didn't like us.

So I was very, Joe was in the office managing it and I was on the shop floor getting dirty looks. I would ask them to do something. They would ignore me.  They would be quite confrontational on, you know. I think people forget all this. When, when, when they see a successful business person  driving around town in their in their nice SUV or a sports car or something and people are sneering or being jealous and that sort of thing or flash flash woman or flash git or something like that like that they they only see that element they don't see the the sleepless nights the tears the heartache the despair the we we've we've all had that month where it's God, how are we going to pay the wages this month?

Because we have, we have run out of money. I've got no more money left. I can't get my hands on any more cash.  how are we going to pay? And, and people just don't see that. So the sacrifice that you guys make in, you, we're probably doing 16, 17 hour days. We were. And 7 days a week. Yeah, and, and we weren't really taking a salary. 

We did take, we did, there was months, so we did try to take a bit right from the get go, because obviously we had to survive. But there were, there were times when we couldn't take a salary. We had to pay the teams. There were times when we nearly, as you say, the cash, cash flow is, is pay and we didn't have enough money to pay the teams.

And what are we going to do now?  But do you know what? We put our heads down and we slogged our way through it and we came out the other side. And  is now an outstanding nursery. It got,  Offstead last November. Came out with a, with an outstanding, we've expanded it from a 26 place to 42, soon to go up another 12 because we've just put a cabin in.

So.  That's how much we've been able to grow that particular business and it is full with a waiting list. So you're really sweating that asset you got there then, where you picked it up at 20 odd places, now 42 and then another 10 coming, so you're making as much, much from that site as possible in terms of opportunity.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, turned a corner with it,  gained, you know, a very good reputation quite quickly, got rid of all the old team, got in a super team. And,  yeah. And so that, you know, that, Worked really well. So then we went on to nursery number three  So so you you were you were so depressed tired and upset you decided I want you to know what sister Let's go and do another one.

No, that was an accident  Well, no, yeah, obviously I know you guys we we work together With with on the coaching side of things. So all your nurseries have been accidents.  No, yeah  Well, you, you seem to fall into them. Oops, we bought another nursery. It's like, oh, okay, fine. Yeah, I think as well,  Joe and I, we don't really think twice about things.

We're very, I'd say, reactive.  We both, we're very lucky because we both think very similar, similarly, similarly, similarly. 

And we just sort of say, oh yeah, shall we? Yeah, let's, let's have this one. But that comes from, that comes from a built in confidence and known ability that, you know, you can do it. That's, that's, that's not a fluke.  I think it was foolishness to begin with, to be fair. I was trying to big you up there. I think, I think to begin with, it was naivety. 

And you just think, you know what, let's, let's do it. And I think what we've done. We've learned along the way and we're very open. You know, that's why we joined your mastermind, Neil. You know, it's like, we want to learn more. We still don't know enough about this business. When we joined it, what, six years ago, we were already hopefully going on the trajectory of building our nurseries.

But then I think you're, I think you you're a bit shallow. If you think that you can do it by yourself. Because you can't. Yeah, you need a team around you. You need good people. You do. Well, and, and we were fortunate enough, I don't like picking you up dudders, but I will do. But we, you know, we, we were fortunate enough that we found the London Mastermind.

And as a, as a group of owners, we were actually all at the beginning of our journeys.  including you really, you were sort of at the beginning of your journey, weren't you as well? I thought at the beginning of another journey, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.  and we were very fortunate that we all gelled together and we were very fortunate that we all bring something to the table.

And I think if you can, I think if there's any piece of advice, I think Lizzie's absolutely right. If there's any piece of advice I could ever give anybody is always that somebody else knows something that you don't. And if you, if you decide as an owner to close yourself off to that, you might just as well pack up and go home.

Because you know, you need to move with the times. I think that's why so many preschools and so many nurseries have shut because, you know, they're old school, they haven't moved with the times, they haven't learned. And it's so important that you keep,  up to date with things and keep learning. And also, the one thing is obviously to learn from your mistakes.

Yeah, yeah. Because everybody makes mistakes. So hold that thought. So that's your biggest lesson then is, is, is, is what? Can you sum up then your biggest lesson?  Learn.  Carry on learning.  Open your mind. Yeah, okay. And, and not listen to other people or listen to their experiences?  Always listen to other people.

I think as long  as they're not negative Nellies, you don't want negative around you. No, it's my motto, who you hang around with matters. And you know, you, you will always find what you're looking for. So if you're looking for negativity, if you are negative, negative, you, you will find more of that and you will hang around with more negative people.

But if you're positive, you're interesting, you're trying to achieve things, you will naturally hang around with those people and have a look at your circle of people. of friends and just go, do you know what? You bring nothing to my life and my reasoning. So I've got to make that tough call. It's like, I'm now distancing myself from, from you.

And we've all had friends like that in the past and we've all got business people like that in the past. You're, you're not making my boat go faster.  I think what I'm sorry, Joe, what I, I think as well as be challenged. So, you know, and I think mastermind we, we get challenged, but I think surround yourself with people, but also people who are prepared to say to you,  Do you think that's the right decision? 

You know, what about this? And just giving you other options. You might still stick with what you decided to do, but to be challenged about why you're doing it, and make you think why you're actioning something.  and I think that's really important. I think the very first time that I ever sat on Mastermind, you basically told me that my logo, which I absolutely adore, I was devastated.

I designed it. Yeah. It doesn't, but it was true though, Neil. it doesn't reflect, tell me your ethos. So I said the ethos and you went, well, that logo does not reflect your ethos.  Yeah, although at the time I was smarty and highly embarrassed because it was the first meeting we had. I'm, I'm sorry, not sorry.

Yes, but took it on board and went back and rethought it. Whereas we were trotting along thinking, so is there something as simple as that, your logo, your branding? Well, I, I work in an office with, with, with my wife, as you, as you know, and I had a Zoom the other day with a, a, a one to one client. And,  Finished the call, got off it, and, and she, she sort of leant back in her chair, and she said, Oh my God, you are brutal. 

And I, and I said, What do you mean? She said, You just,  Don't mix your words. You don't sort of fluff it up. You just say it as it is. But I said, well,  I didn't, I don't mean to be brutal. And it comes from a really good, good place. It's not like a, like a telling off or something, but she said, yeah, you, you just so straight talking.

And I hadn't realized it before. So I do apologize if, if you were smarting, but then, but, You know, what you created probably from that very first time we spoke has been, has implemented everything across the board that you're currently doing now.  So I think you're going to hear things, sorry Jay, you're going to hear things that you're not going to like to hear. 

Yeah, it's whether you take it or not, isn't it? It's part and parcel of learning, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, but a lot of people wouldn't have liked to hear some stuff and they would have gone,  not listened to that, don't, don't, don't believe it. But you have to, and I think you have to be true to your convictions,  especially at the moment.

To me, like, you know, I read on the day nursery owners pages.  obviously it's dominated by funding  and sometimes I could sort of shout at the page because I'm thinking this is your business. Why are you being dictated to by parents? Yes. Nobody wants to pay more. You, you know, your conviction is I am the best.

This is what I'm giving you and this is why I'm charging. I will charge whatever I want to. You have a choice. If you don't want to come to my nursery, then go elsewhere. And I think that is something that has come, that sounds brutal as well, doesn't it? But that is something that has definitely come from experience.

Your offer is your offer. And that's fine. But I think the decisions that I know you've made and that I've made as well.  yes, we're not the cheapest.  but I know what, what wage rises we're able to give. next month on the back of that. And, you know, we're, we're probably looking at a 15%, 20 percent increase in wages.

So, you know, it's gone from  11 odd to like 13. 50.  and we're now in a position to pay  people for the bloody hard work that they do. Yeah. Our wages have gone up on average 50, 000 per year per nursery.  And that has to come from somewhere. It has to come from somewhere. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. You couldn't invest.

You couldn't do what you create. And children only have one early years. So it's our duty to make their one early years as memorable as possible. Yeah. And I do think that because we work in early years and because we're passionate and because we're vocational, people don't accept, still, parents don't accept, that actually we're businesses. 

They don't like to think of us as businesses, but you know, we have to be sustainable, we have to make a living, you know, we've, we've dedicated many years to it. And,  so, you know, be true to your convictions, I think would, would, would definitely be moral for us as well. And, you know, it's worked really well for us, you know. 

So we, so we covered your, your biggest lesson. What about your biggest mistake?  Yeah,  apart from setting up in business with your sister. And before that setting up with friends and chuck children into the mix. So you're working with the free demographs that people say you should never work with friends, family, and children.

And, oh, dogs, but you don't look after dogs, so, you know. We've made, do you know, we've made so many mistakes over the years. Let's hear the clangers. And continue to do so.  oh my goodness.  Well, apart from having a lovely earthy natural ethos with bright coloured stickers over your windows that no child could see out of. 

I just, oh, I don't, I'm trying to think actually. I do think, I mean, going back to Wiff and Ho.  I think that with, with, with Wiv and Ho,  we, we definitely, we bent over too much for the staff  rather than going in. You can still be kind, and I still believe that, you know, you need To be kind, be and, and treat people the way that you would wanna be treated yourself.

But I don't think we were assertive enough with that team. Were we, Lizzie at all we,  what we were doing. And I think we were shocked because the way they treated us, I think  we, we'd never experienced that before. And because we only showed them kindness and it wa and. And honestly Neil, it was horrific what they did to us.

It, it was sort of like, what, why I think, I dunno if it was a sheltered upbringing or what, but we've never really come across that. And I think you are right. But I think it was a, it was early days. I think the other thing as well that because we're very lucky now that we've got, an amazing senior team,  In Libby and Lindsay and our managers that when we first took on Lindsay as our ops manager, our communication skills weren't that great with her. We were still sort of  discussing things with Joe and myself, we were having a, you know, oh yeah, let's do this, let's do that. And then we'd sort of forget to tell Lindsay and she's like, Oh, I didn't know we were doing that.

Yeah, that's very apt. That happened to me this morning. There was a decision made or a conversation made on Friday that our ops director wasn't part of because she doesn't work a Friday. And before I had time to talk to her about it this morning, she heard from somebody else. And it's just like, what are you doing now? 

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Emily. Sorry. Yeah.  and it's that it's,  so, cause Joe and I have been so used to working as a twosome, then to have a third person in, it's like, and obviously she needs to know everything and it's like, oh, and it wasn't done on purpose and obviously like what happened on Friday, but where we've been so used together.

So we've sort of had to relearn that. And I think Joe particularly found it very hard at letting go.  Are you blaming Jo for all the, for everything bad that's happened?  And it's, it's double because as you rightly said, you're spontaneous people, I'm spontaneous. We have an idea, we click our fingers and we do it.

That's why I think we're totally unemployable to anybody else because working in some other corporate entity, we're just like self employed within a week.  Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, I mean, yeah, we've just done so much. I mean, one of our nurseries that we opened,  We, the landlord, let us get in before the lease was signed, when we, I kept asking for the lease and asking for the lease and the lease turned up and it wasn't the lease that we wanted.

And literally the day before we were due to open, he just went, well,  get out then. Oh God, and you've refurbished the whole building? Yeah. How much money do you think you spent? How much, how many hours or how many days or weeks do you think you spent? A lot. And we all already had 14. 100k? 100k? And some probably, yeah.

Probably around 100k, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you, and you just said, well, sling, sling hook type scenario.  Yeah. So what happened in the end? How, because you're, you're sort of It was all okay. Well, I know it's all okay now, but you're kind of backed into a corner. You've done all this work. You're opening tomorrow.

You're opening with 40 children or something. I think I just heard you say.  How, how did you pull that back? I don't know. Well, they just calmed down  and then I just, I just was like, you know, no, no, no, no. We need to have a conversation about this. And this is the reasons why dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And, and, and, and, you know, it, then it did, it all calmed down and it was all okay.

And actually it's been a great relationship ever since. Brilliant. Brilliant. Because sometimes things can be, it'd be heightened and stressful and that sort of thing when you actually take a breath, walk away for five minutes, just go, I'm being an idiot. You're being an idiot. Yeah. You know, and we trust people.

I think because we're trustworthy and good to our word. And if we say that we're going to do something, we'll act on it. And we just think everyone's the same. And of course they're not.  that's been a bit of a lesson. Yeah, we've had to deal with a thief, a manager that was thieving from us.  that was quite traumatic and very upsetting because obviously you trust your managers and,  Yeah, but you know, there's been so many things, but however,  you can't take away from the joy, you know, the bad bits, and sometimes I think you can get really embroiled in the bad bits. 

And you've, it's like when a parent complains, you've got 500 parents and one person complaining, but you concentrate on that one that's complaining. It's the 80 20 rule, isn't it? You spend 80 percent of your time on the same 20 percent of people. Yes, yeah. And your good clients are the ones you probably pay no attention to whatsoever.

Yeah, exactly. And we should be better. Yeah, and I, you know, I, and I did, I did struggle to let go. I absolutely did, but I was spinning so many plates, I was doing everything very averagely, and I wasn't doing anything well because I didn't have the time to. And as soon as I started to give that up  and get reined in, because I said, all right, then I'm going to give up, da da da da da, and then if I tried to interfere, I would be told, you're interfering.

And, and now I don't. Now I love it. I should have done it years ago. Did you and the people telling you take that personally? Did that create animosity? Did that create any bad blood? Or did they know that they could just say to you, Joe,  get your nose out, stop interfering. And they were okay with you occasionally interfering and being told?

Yep. Yeah. And, and actually I think that's, it's on quite an even keel now, isn't it, Lizzie? I mean, you know, even sometimes, I mean, I think I'd put a date in the diary for Lindsay today and said, Oh, I told you about that, didn't I? She'll know you didn't. Yeah, you know, mistakes happen. I  just, I just think it's, there's, there's so many, there's so much stuff whirring around in our heads.

We think we've said something or we think we've written an email a certain way and somebody phones up and they says, that was a bit of a crappy email that you sent. Why was it, why was it so blunt and straight to the point or something? And it's like, Oh, I'm really sorry. I just wrote it in a hurry. Just wanted to get you the details.

No malice or no, no hard feelings intended. It's just, I just  blurted it out and sent it and. you know, apologies type scenario. Yeah. Yeah.  So, you know, you, you live and learn. You're never going to stop making mistakes. You're a human being at the end of the day. We're never ever going to stop making mistakes, but as long as  I think we all know each other's quirks now, don't we, Lizzie?

I think that's the main thing. Yeah. So how long have you known each other for?  What, me and my sister? 

Two years. I think sort of maturity comes into it. I  think, I think, you know, maybe if you'd have done this when you're in your twenties or you like your early thirties, you, you might have come to blows a little, little bit more maybe. But I think the, the, the more  advanced, no advanced a bad word, isn't it?

Of years , rude,  old. No, that's not a good word. Mature. Mature, mature. Well, naau are great. Is it  young at heart? Young. The more young at heart you are. The, the, the more kind of, you know, what to give and take with.  You do. And I think Lizzie and I are very fortunate. Obviously we know each other inside out, upside down and backwards.

So I think we know when the other one's annoyed and we walk away. But we're very lucky because we, our skill set is completely different. Right. So what do you, so what is your skill set then? So Jo, what, what do you do? What, what does your week look like? I do spreadsheets.  You do spreadsheets, ? I do spreadsheets.

Yeah. Lizzie does sticking and gluing, sticking and G glue with spreadsheet. Brilliant. I love that so much. Yeah. So my week now, well I am semi-retired now.  so is Lizzie now that we've got our team around us. So we have a weekly meeting with our operations director on a Monday morning, and then we're always available on the phone if need be.

And then pretty much when we're not opening a nursery,  My job really is overseeing the business, I would say in a nutshell. Do you think Lizzie, that's pretty much, yeah. My role.  So you, you oversee the finances, so you're a sort of the financial director, CEO type scenario.  Oh, if only I was the CEO.  I'll be far, someone's gotta be the ceo. 

Someone's gotta be it  . No, I think, yeah, I, I do, I do the business basically. Yeah. And then I tell Lizzie how it's all going. Yeah. And then Lizzie does. So you create the spaces, you create the love and the joy then, Lizzie, do you? Yeah, I get the fun bit.  spreadsheets is not my bag at all. See, I think spreadsheets are fun.

I'm, I'm, I'm with Joe on this  gi gimme the cash flows and the spreadsheets and the numbers and love all that. No YY yang. And we always, I mean, don't ask Joe to draw a cat or a dog or anything like that, 'cause God knows what you'll end up with. So I suppose I'm, I would say I was the more creative one. So when we first started, I was obviously working on working in the nurseries, you know, with like, with and hope.

I was very much on the shop floor and I was working with the teams and I was putting in, I suppose, the educational ethos into it. However, although I was doing that,  and although I was  I was a teacher for 25 years and in reception, which is early years. It was still very much a learning curve for me, because even that six weeks when the children leave nursery to go to school, it is, it is very, it's very, very, very different sort of setup. 

so I was very much looking at,  like, you know, what we were doing within like the curriculum. It wasn't really curriculum because obviously we've got our beautiful curriculum now, which Lindsay and Libby have created, but I was just trying to embed it, embed some things that I felt were really, really important, particularly in the preschool, because obviously that was the transitioning into school. 

very holistic approach, you know, those simple things that I felt were being missed out.  putting their coats on, being able to go to the toilet, putting their shoes on the correct way, and all of that sort of thing. The independence. Yeah, the independence and then just general things, just preparing them for school.

So I mainly worked in the preschool.  and then obviously I was then when, as we were buying more and more nurseries, I very much did that, the, the, the setup, the environments,  and that sort of thing, changing the buildings around, you know, Taking balls down, putting balls up and that sort of thing, creating garden environments.

And then each time we've set up a new nursery, I've just extended it and I've just taken all the bits that I know work for the other nurseries.  I very much, I really also, as well, I ended up falling into the advertising, marketing and social and all of that sort of thing. Social media, again, no training.

and that's something now that I've now handed over.  I got us to a point where, yeah, we were ticking along quite nicely, but I actually said to Joe it's taking up so much of my time. Especially in the evenings, you know, you work all day and then I'm sitting on my phone all night, you know, putting posts on and So have you employed someone to do that then?

So now we've got the lovely lotti. So, and again, I think we've just been so lucky with the, the homegrown team that we've had. So Lotti started with us as an apprentice at  , worked her way up to room leader  and  We just saw in Lottie that she definitely has a flair for social media and when we started doing the TikToks and that sort of thing she took ownership of that.

You're not doing all those dances are you? Were you doing those dances in lockdown?  Oh no, no, it's only recently she's taken over. Oh no, we weren't doing that. but just recently,  so January, Lottie took it over, and oh my goodness, we should have given Lottie the role. I'm quite miffed really, because she's done it so well.

Note to yourself, fire myself sooner.  Yeah, she won, she knows like all the, you know, what's in vogue and what's not, and she knows how to do stuff, and oh my goodness, Her enthusiasm. It's a full time job. You know, obviously we've got the six nurseries now and I was just saying to Joe and Lindsay, you know, everything else we, we've got very, I feel with, we're very professional with the way we do things.

We have like high quality in everything that we do, but our social media wasn't reflecting that. It wasn't really reflecting what we do and what we do well. So would you say your social media has been like the the the is that a tribute to your success? Do you think that's had a a big impact in your in your growth?

Because you say you're at six settings now. I'm going to come on in a bit to how you finance that. But do you think the social media presence has made a massive difference? I think to begin with, no, because you've got to remember when we started, there wasn't really such thing as social media as such.

There was Facebook, but that wasn't,  you know, we put a few things on and that was it. But we learn as we went along, we went as, as we went along. Now, Definitely social media, particularly Instagram and TikTok  for us have been very, very effective. Facebook, you know,  our, our sold, these are the only ones on Facebook now, aren't we?

I know, I know. Yeah. Everyone's on Snapchat, Instagram, and TikTok.  Yeah. And we went, we went viral the other week, apparently. You can get cream for that, Jo, you can get cream for that. And I said, oh, is it catching? Is it catching? You've got to wear a mask.  What we're finding now, and again, I mean, Lottie has only been doing this since January.

We're now having, companies approaching us to do TikToks and things for them, and we get something for free. Brilliant. There's a word for that. There's a word for that, isn't there? And I don't know what the word is.  there's a marketing word for when companies approach you. Network marketing?  yeah.

Yeah. Let's call it that. Let's call it that.  So you're getting free steaks from the butcher or something then?  So we've had Twinkle. Twinkle approached us. You know, the resources. Yeah.  gompels, you know, just bits and pieces, but  you know, for once it's off. And now is to reach out to Ritz Carlton to reach out to Harrods. 

And, reach out to,  I don't know,  Tiffany's or something.  Or that would be quite nice. Yeah, just think about what you can get back. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, it's, but, you know, where have they heard from us? You know what I mean? How have they got it? They've approached us. And that's all, that's all from what's happened since January.

our, followers have gone up and all of that sort of thing. And also what we've found. Is we did an open day for our latest nursery.  Last week and or two weeks ago, sorry. And we had people turning up saying, Oh, we saw you on the video.  Well, we've done videos promoting it. And oh, yeah, we reckon we said, Hello, I'm Joe.

I'm Liz. Oh, yeah, we know you because we saw you on the video.  And so, so you guys being in front of the camera, talk to me about that experience from the very first time you did a video. I mean,  you're obviously a slick honed pairing now in front of the camera,  even after a You want to see our outtakes, Neil?

Yeah, I, I, I think you need to release a b roll of, of, of all the, all the bad stuff. Do you know what we should do? But it must have been a bit nerve wracking the first time that you did it. Awful. Yikes. It's scary. Nobody really wants to do it. But you know what? The more you do it,  the less you think about it. 

And it is just, you know, I'm doing this for a reason and got to get on with it.  And we generally now, when we do videos, we seldom take more than one take.  Yeah, because we both know when the other one's got to be quiet because the other one's then going to think. Are you sure? Well, within reason. Within reason.

I, I remember when I first started doing like the podcast and doing videos for like my website and that sort of thing and I, I did a really bad attempt at a voiceover and I was reading it like. how to get into a child care nursery and it was literally an absolute worst car crash but and then seeing yourself on photographs seeing yourself on videos and everything else and at first you're just like oh my god this is the worst thing ever but then then you just think well what's the worst that's going to happen this this is me this is it this is what it is i'll tell you the funniest neil was actually when we did our first live  okay like two old girls trying trying  To  do a live and actually everybody loved it because it was so funny.

We had the camera round the wrong way. We go, we're on the camera. We go, has it started yet? Has it started? What are we doing? Let's meet Lizzie and have a chat. I love it. And it was, it was very, but it makes you human. And actually it was really funny because we were so disastrous at it. It was actually funny.

Because people are buying into you then, aren't they? It's like, you're not some slick,  trained person doing this. You're not some paid actors coming in or voiceover artists. It is. It's, it's you guys, you know, you've got the local accent and the, and the dialect and all that sort of thing. And I just think that all goes for you because your, your videos come across as so sort of warming and I, I mean, I want to come to your nurseries. 

We definitely do. I don't blame you, to be honest.  My nurseries don't want me either.  No, we do want you, you know you're welcome. Bless you, bless you. So, so obviously you're at number six now. You've just launched, is it the Baddow Nursery? A couple of weeks ago.  so how do you, how do you finance? Because obviously buying nurseries is expensive.

Finding the buildings is expensive. You've, you're obviously surrounded by a good team of builders and suppliers and painters and Blurring people and all that sort of thing. And that comes from doing it once or twice. You know, you can just wave your hand to Joe in the carpet shop. He knows what you want and he comes and fits it and it, and it's, and it's done. 

but how do you finance? Do you, do you borrow huge chunks of cash? No. So what we did, So we borrowed, when we opened Wyth Ho, we borrowed a hundred thousand. Yep, so the first one was pension money to buy the property. The first one was pension money. Yeah, the second one we borrowed a hundred thousand from the bank, and they just put a charge on Lizzie's house, not mine. 

Was your house nicer, Lizzie? That's, yes, she has more equity in hers, but I'm, you know, sour grapes, don't worry about it.  the third one,  it's, it's,  We paid for it out of cash that we had. I've always been very mindful of Swirreling money away  and been very very careful on making sure That I'm quite cash rich or we're quite cash rich.

I would say I am because Lizzie doesn't even look in the bank account  That's trust But I mean, well, I would hope so, we're sisters, so. Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a few accountants languishing in Spain somewhere, and, and also, custody of Her Majesty's services as well. That said, trust me, I'll look after the money for you.

Yeah, well, you know, I do have more holidays than Lizzie does, and she hasn't quite cleared it yet, so we're good. Be quiet, Neil, be quiet, be quiet. Shall I tell about the one you told me about this afternoon?  It's good. Bognor's really nice this time of year though. Can't knock Bognor, can't knock it. Coming back  with a lovely tan.

So you won't get a tan in Bognor, that's something else you'll see in Bognor, I can assure you. Sorry people in Bognor. Obviously, so you started talking about cash and keeping cash. Yeah, so sorry, apologies. So then we opened the third one. Yeah, so  the one thing that I am very, very careful of is making sure that we have enough money in the bank. 

and as soon as we started to make a profit, we didn't take the profit. We left it where it was, and that enabled us to get nursery number three.  that was an empty building, and there wasn't a huge amount to do to that, to be fair. That didn't cost us that much to get open.  and then lockdown happened, and  you'll never have borrowed money easier than when lockdown happened.

So, I borrowed. Ah, bounce back loans. Oh yeah, I did the bounce back loan and the other one, whatever that was called back in the day. C bills. Yeah, so I did both of those.  because, mainly because we didn't know what was going to happen,  long term. No, no one knew. It was carnage, wasn't it? And also because it was the easiest money we've ever borrowed.

It was just like, fill out this form, yep, there you go, 75, 000. Hmm. So I held on to that money. And, fortunately we didn't have to, spend any of it.  so we had, so I had those two loans sitting in the bank and the repayments are relatively low.  so rather than paying, paying back, I used somebody else's money and kept that, kept that, and then that helped us open our next nursery.

And then we sort of gone from there. So we actually, apart from those three loans. We've self funded.  everything.  Right. Brilliant. From there. Yeah. And still made sure obviously that, I mean, you know, for this, this latest project has been our most expensive one.  but we spoke about that. I mean, I'm not going to mention the figure that, that, that, that you spent on it, but,  you know, you were, you're in like sort of  Not two minds, but you were sort of worried about how much you spent on it and you know that it's a money pit and everything else.

And, and I was, I think I turned around and said, well,  if I could sell you that nursery singing, all singing or dancing, ready to go to put the key in the front door and you open the next day, would you pay X amount for it? And you said, well, yeah, of course. We, we would. And then we came to the realization that it, it is, it's just the same amount of cash, just in a different way.

You're either giving it to somebody that you're buying a turnkey operation for or you're spending it on doing the refurb yourself. It's the same amount of cash. And it is an investment. That's not going to be dead money. You know, we've, we've invested in the business and actually, hopefully, you know, it's going to give us a decent return.

Well, even even now, you if you put it on the market now to sell, you'd get double what you've invested in it. Yeah, yeah, we probably that's, that's what you've created in with six, 12 weeks of hard work. Yeah. And getting the right people. involved. You've, you've, you've doubled your money. Yeah. And that's sort of really down.

And obviously Lizzie is that aesthetics and has made this one just absolutely stunning. It's beautiful. And,  yeah, so it's,  you know, I know Neil at our last mastermind, we were talking about this and, you know, we were talking about, investing in whoever you're going to invest in, in order for your marketing and what have you.

So,  Lizzie and I got to a point where we needed help with the marketing. And as Lizzie said, with, you know, with what she was doing, she sort of got to a point where she couldn't do anymore. And sometimes you have to get people in that know much more than you do. And that's, that's the idea, I think, of a successful business.

Only ever, once you get to a certain point, only ever employ people that know far more than you do. Yeah, so do you, you sub out your, your, your big, your big thinking marketing then? Yeah, so we use Nick Williams, for our marketing and we switched our thinking. Is there a company name or is he just a man on a boat somewhere?

Sorry, he's Childcare Business Growth. Okay. yeah, and you know, not the cheapest on the market, but again, you get what you pay for. And.  Lizzie and I  had to switch our thinking to not how much it was costing us, but actually how much revenue it was actually going to bring us in.  So,  as soon as we switched that way of thinking, didn't we Lizzie, I think it was, it's, you know, worked really well for us and has actually helped us up the next step where we needed to go to.

It's it's all about mindset. This business, business, not just childcare, but any business is all about mindset.  and when you, when you have that mindset that, you know, instead of saying, okay, well, my marketing is going to cost me 1500 quid a month. Oh my God, we can't afford that.  you can't afford not to, because the dividends that that brings in is, is, is sort of  But it's interesting because we had actually gone to see, childcare business growth.

We went and Nick was holding a conference or something and we went and saw him two years earlier and we was like, Oh, and then we're just like, Ooh, too expensive.  that we can't afford that. And probably at the time we couldn't totally afford it. But then when we  got our fourth nursery,  which is in a little seaside town of Breitling Sea, which is one road in one road out,  we realized that we really had to, we weren't normally, once we open, we get signups quite quickly and that we get the momentum and people word of mouth.

But because it was a little seaside town, everyone and everyone knew everybody else. Everyone used the local childminders and that sort of thing. We were the new kids in town and they were a bit skeptical of us.  And we were a bit like, Oh, hang on. We're not getting the signups that we normally get.

Through your own traditional methods that you done.  Yeah, the open days, giving freebies and all of this sort of thing.  so we thought, right, we've got to do something about this. So that's why we, we, we sourced outside and went to CBG and,  then just with Brightling C, not with the others, because the others were taking them quite nicely.

And now they've taken over the whole thing because they did such a good job. Because it, they just changed it around. Yeah. And I think that sometimes. As Joe said, you know, we sort of gambled it. We thought, Oh gosh, it's  quite a bit of money, but we had to flip it.  Yeah,  and, and, and that's absolutely true for all the nursery owners that I speak to. 

I tell them  if they, if they have more settings, the, it becomes easier because you know, you can be a headless chicken running two or three settings yourself as an owner, spreading yourself thinly and probably not doing a very good job at either, at either of the places. But if you, if you have this, if you have this growth mindset, then you can.

You can quite easily make an executive decision like you paying your marketing lady, the, the,  Lottie, Lottie, you know, you can just make that decision to pay that salary to do that marketing because, because you've, you've got growth and you've scaled it up and scale is vitally important because you can then just, as we said, click your fingers, make that executive decision, weigh up the pros and cons and hire her.

and you don't look, look back. And you can't do that when you've got two settings because it's a much bigger, it's a much bigger chunk of your pot. Yes,  yeah, absolutely. When I think the more nurseries that you, that you get, it definitely gives you choices.  And it enables you, because your, your head office costs don't get spread across those.

I don't know, say you've got three settings and you get an area manager. That area manager is, her cost goes across three settings. If you've got six settings, her cost dilutes. Because it's across six settings. So,  you know, it's, it does, it, it's, it's a luxury.  you know, having the, the luxury of having more settings, but introduce people as you go. 

don't introduce people that you can't afford to pay.  but in, but introduce as you go and introduce people that know more than you do. Yeah. Or find them and just say, do you know, ring me back in three years time, I, I will have a position for you. Mm-Hmm. You've, you've got something. I can't, I can't afford you yet.

But yeah, keep in touch. We've homegrown all of our senior team. Everybody is all homegrown. All, they were all managers and deputies at some stage?  So they know your ethos and your way of working and I guess you got that inbuilt trust straight away then, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. And the respect? Yeah.  Yeah.

And I think, sorry Lizzie, I think looking out for your talent is really important as well. And I was actually listening to a podcast the other day about, oh, Stephen Bartlett. It's his book. Never heard of him. Never heard of him. Stephen Bartlett? Oh, I love him. I listen to him a lot.  and he was saying about within his businesses,  spotting the people that do things  they don't think anybody else has noticed. 

So ignore the big, loud ones. Look what I've done, aren't I fantastic? But have a look at the person that has gone out of their way to be kind to another team member and go and do something for them or has, I don't know, cleaned up a mess in the corner because somebody else has left it there and, and, but, you know, will just selflessly go and do it.

And, and I think, yeah, that's absolutely right. And actually our, our key players.  are all understated, aren't they?  Oh yeah, they don't say how marvellous they are. We have to, we have to constantly say that is brilliant, that you're amazing because  They're very good at praising each other,  but they would never say, yeah, do you know what?

I did that.  Ego is a terrible thing. 

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what the word means.  So, so Just to wrap up then, so, you know, your, your, your business is 12 years old. Where are you going?  Is, is there a grand plan or are you reverting to type where you're just going to wing it continually and see what happens, see where you end up?

We're not going anywhere. I think Lizzie and I are in the fortunate position that we have stepped away. We're now working on the business rather than in the business.  And we don't have to do it every day and we've, we've set up our team now that we've got six settings and we've set up a team underneath us that do it.

And.  We just oversee it, don't we, really, Lizzie? So, you know, I think now we're so lucky to be, to be in that position.  you know, let's just  Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  So you're, you're, you're six nurseries down. Are you going to announce number seven shortly? 

Mum's the word.  Do you know what, Neil? We, we don't, we always like every time we, we open a nursery, we say, right, we need to give ourselves a break. We need to give ourselves a break and just, tick along. And I think that's really important. We know we've got to consolidate what, what we've got, but it doesn't mean that you don't ever start keeping your, keeping your ears out, eyes out, just see what's going on around you. 

so  I don't think we'll stop at number six, but if we do, I'm quite happy. It's, I think sometimes if you force it, it doesn't happen.  And, but Joe and I, we're quite lucky that we have had nurseries sort of come our way, which is amazing. But we also, I feel, are quite instinctive on things. We'll, we will go and have a look. 

And literally on the day say, yeah, okay, to the estate agent. Yeah, we'll have it. We'll have it. I think we both know what we're looking for. We've walked away from plenty.  Kissed a few frogs.  Yeah. No, that's not for us. But then when we do fall apart, I mean, like this last one,  I mean, obviously it ended up costing us a lot more money because it was a grade two listed building.

The plumbing was archaic. The electrics were illegal. So a lot of money went into the building, which we actually hadn't foreseen or planned, but we just walked in and just went, wow. Both of us together. There was already another nursery interested in it. And we knew that so we just said there and then right we'll have it.

We'll pay the deposit this afternoon. Done. And we do this and then we walk outside and we go, Oh my God, what have we just done? Have we just laughed at it? I think you got the confidence in knowledge and experience and you can then just instantly open all those doors in your mind for this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

And.  Within two seconds, you've gone through the whole process or you're weighing it up and it's like, yeah, we need to do this. No, we need to walk away. Or I'm not sure type scenario. And I just think if ever with any decisions, if you if you're not fully into it straight away, walk away. Yeah,  we're like this with safeguarding things.

If if the mere fact that you're talking about a safeguarding issue means it doesn't sit right with you. So the mere fact that you're thinking about it, talking about it, You've got to report it and go through the official channels and And, you know,  Neil, we do have the luxury, and I'll come back again to the, to the Mastermind group.

You know, we do have the luxury of that. And outside of the Mastermind group, we have met,  another couple of, of nursery owners, who again, we're not in competition with. And, you know, we all help each other.  So if we have got a problem, we know that, I mean, you know, in the past, a number of times, actually, you think from our mastermind group, Neil, that we've all jumped on a zoom.

Because there's been a problem. And you'll say, quick do you want to Zoom? And then we'll all jump on the Zoom and we'll all help each other. And, and, you know, I do think that is very important to build up a network of  knowledgeable people as well and people that have the same vision and mindset as you do. 

Yeah. And, and, you know, that's, that's what the group is for, you know, that's why I set up Day Nursery Owners in 2015 in the first place, because I originally wanted people to sort of talk to and bounce off.  I opened the group thinking, well, if I can get eight people, eight, 12 people around the country that aren't competing that, that I can talk to, to help me. 

brilliant. And within like a week had 200 people wanting to join and the rest, as they say, is history, but yeah, certainly, certainly coming back to who you hang around with and spend time with matters. so choose everybody wisely, wisely. It's, it's the best, best investment that you can make. You know,  I don't sell a  product.

I, it doesn't cost anything. People will say to me, how much do you make? Does it cost? And I said, well, it doesn't cost investments don't cost, you know, the, the, you invest your time and you will reap the rewards and it's black and white. Yeah. Yeah. Black and white. Yeah. Guys, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to, to have a chin wag and chat all things nursery.

Oh, we've, we've got the, so for those of you, those of you on the podcast, there's, there's a rather goblet sized glass of wine that Jo's just swigging on and  she kept that out of view. So,  But, yeah, guys, thank you. Thank you so much. Continue doing what you're doing. It's good stuff. And, you know, every day you're improving the lives of hundreds of children throughout Essex.

So kudos to you and well, well done and long may you continue to do good stuff.