Dawn - Episode 5 - SPRING MORNINGS

Join The Simple Things’ Editor Lisa Sykes and Author of The Slow Traveller and regular contributor Jo Tinsley. We’ll be capturing that feeling you get when larks and adventures (or even just the possibility of them) beckons you from your bed. We’re getting out and about, doing a spot of foraging, discussing what makes a good walk and because it’s Mothers Day, there are a few mum stories too

If you are in the UK, you can try an immediate start subscription to the The Simple Things and receive the current issue straight away. We can send subscriptions anywhere in the world. Or buy current and back issues here 

Thanks to our partner for Season 9, Friends of Glass, an organisation that celebrates and supports glass packaging for food, drink and cosmetics. Find out more about why glass is better for health, taste and the environment and follow them on instagram @friendsofglassuk

Editing & music by Arthur Cosslett. 

On the blog

Book-based trails

In the March issue (165) on sale now, available to buy here 

Could do list

Outing – follow-your-nose trails

How to drink magnolia

The fine art of mothering – artist Caroline Walker

In the new April issue on sale from 27 March. Order at picsandink.com from 23 March

Blossom foraging

In previous issues available at picsandink.com. 

Climbing a Small Hill (Issue 67)

Taking a train to the sea (Issue 61)

Sketching (Issue 39)

Lost gardens (Issue 153)

Wisdom: daughters learning from their mothers (153)

In our new Homebird bookazine

Outing - Reading the landscape when you are on a walk

Foraging – Hawthorn and elderflower in spring hedgerows

Learn more

Rivington Terraced Gardens

Lost Gardens of Heligan

Hawkstone Park Follies, Shropshire

The walker’s guide to clues and signs by Tristan Gooley

Britain’s Best Small Hills by Phoebe Smith

The Monsal Trail, Peak District

Slow ways – connecting rural and urban spaces

Make ways – Places you’d like to be able to walk

National Parks in 100 seconds

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hi, welcome to Small Ways to Live Well, the podcast from the Simple Things magazine. I'm Lisa Sykes, the editor, and I'm here with our contributor and author of The Slow Traveller, Joe Tinsley, who's my co-host. And a big thank you to Friends of Glass who are supporting us this season. They're an organisation that champions, promotes, and celebrates the use, reuse and recycling of glass packaging. And later in this episode, I'm going to be having a chat with them about why glass is a good thing and what we can do. And there are plenty of fun projects and more info on the Friends of Glass website or their Instagram, Friends of Glass UK. And we'll put links for that and everything else we mentioned today on our show notes. So you can uh download them later. No need to have a notepad and pencil by your side. So this episode is our dawn. Well, it's our dawn season, and we're calling this episode Spring Mornings because Joe and I have been agreeing that there is nothing quite like waking up on a hopefully sunny spring morning and luxuriating in the possibilities that that opens up. So today we're all about larks and adventures. We're getting out and about, we're doing a spot of foraging, looking at what makes a good walk. And because it's Mother's Day, if you're listening to this on the Sunday we release, then we're going to talk a few mum stories too. But spring mornings, Joe. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Hi, hi Lisa. Yeah, it's good to be back. It feels like spring's finally here, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

It it really does. I know it's my it's the most exciting time of year, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, it feels as well like there's a sense of urgency, like when you wake up, this sort of sense of like, oh, I've got to seize the day because I've been wanting these days for so long. You know, there's been a long winter, so it's got a different vibe, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Definitely. And in in in summer, yeah, you don't feel you feel like you've got all the time in the world in summer mornings, don't you? No rush, because the lights there for much longer. But spring, you've got to crack on because you know it's still not going to be light until 10 o'clock at night, is it? So Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. I love the idea of waking up with, you know, what shall we do today? You know, because you do that when you're a kid in the school holidays, don't you? You kind of think, well, what should I do today? But as a grown-up, you don't really do that very often. But I just think there are so many possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Especially when you wake up and you can feel that it's a nice that it's nice weather.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah, the sun just coming through the curtains, and it's like, oh yes. So we had a little chat about this, didn't we? And we we decided to come up with our ideal day. And what was really funny is we didn't even have to think about it. We both straight away just came out with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Oh, it was an instant.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Go on. What does a spring morning beckon for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, so my ideal day is a three-parter. So it starts it starts with a drive, windows down, music blaring out, um, down some nice little country lanes, nice spring country lanes, and then I'm gonna do something outdoors. So I'm gonna go for a walk, or I'm gonna go to like a community sauna, or I'm gonna go for a swim in some um you know, swim outdoors, and then straight to a pub. And if it's nice weather, ideally I'm gonna sit outside, feel the sun on my skin, and have a pint. That's my ideal day.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Nice. Mine starts with a cup of tea, but outside, and I'm opening the back door and I'm leaving it open for the first time in the year, and I'm gonna have a little potter in the garden to see what's going on, bit of new life while I have my tea. And then I'm gonna go for a bike ride. I'm gonna blow away winter, feel the wind in my hair and the sun on my face, and I love riding my bike. And and I'm going to seek out a tea room where the scones are as big as saucers. Well deserved. That is my ideal spring day. I do like the idea that, you know, even though we've said about seizing the day, you you still got to potter a bit, haven't you? Not rush doing everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Well, I think that's a nice, that's a nice way to slow it down. So even though you've got that energy, you don't want to rush these days. It's just that you sort of wake up with that kind of energy. But yeah, pottering helps you slow it down again.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Definitely. And you know, I I think it's a good time to remind people because in every issue of The Simple Things, we have a could-do list, don't we? Which is, you know, things not to do or should do, but a nice list of stuff you just could. And it's funny, I I wrote about how I always write one myself in the very first issue of the magazine I edited, which I I I realised when I was looking through old issues the other day that the very first one I edited, which is over a decade ago, I wrote about a could-do list and then we put it into the magazine and made it a thing. And and just the writing of a could-do list makes it feel possible, doesn't it? You know, and there's no real pressure to take them off, you know. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I think it's that set survive for the whole magazine as well, doesn't it? Having that in there.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah, because because it just just the idea of it is is nice. Yeah, and it does set it off. It's in the first page in our magazine. And um, actually, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna read a few things out from the one in the March issue because I think they're very appropriate to our spring mornings. So take these off, Joe. See you, see if you'd like to do these. The first one is rather randomly go badger watching. Have you ever done that? It's great fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah, I've had me here before I move down here. I did that on the Mendips, yeah. I have gone badger watching.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

And then me too. Cook with spring greens, always a nice thing to do. Yeah, buy a new novel and read it in the bath.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Always happy to do that.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah, and I say I don't think that's particularly unique to March, is it? Spend a day in your own company to museum or gallery. That's always a fun thing to do. Yeah, take a picture of your garden each day and sprat track spring's changes. That's good, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I don't want to do that, it'll just make me feel guilty for how overgrown it.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Oh, yeah, but you could you could do a little, you know, speedy run-through and watch the things come growing. Yeah, that'd be nice. Go for a walk in the rain and then enjoy drying off in the warm. Yes, that's your pub moment, you see, isn't it? There, right there.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

It is, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Another feature, of course, that we've done in every issue of the magazine. In fact, I've I've now discovered in practically every issue since it's begun because we've run 165 outings in the magazine to date. And these are, for anyone who's not a regular reader, they're spontaneous day trips where you don't have to really plan ahead too much and they're somewhere not too far from you. So sometimes we kind of give ideas for you know thematic places, but then sometimes we just come up with an idea like, you know, warm places for cold days or you know, things like that. So we've been digging around, haven't we, Joe? And we enjoyed this, didn't we? Um finding our favourite outings that we would do. I'll tell you what, we'll we'll alternate. I'll do one, you do one, okay? Right. So my my first one, and I think I think I stole this one because I think you'd like this one as well. Yeah, climbing a small hill. Yes. And it's such a good idea, this. So Phoebe Smith, uh a writer who's written for us a few times, she did a book called Britain's Best Small Hills. And you know, the point about them is they're easy to get to, they take less time and effort to climb, and they're really good fun. But also if the weather's poor, you can stay lower and still get an amazing view.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, and the ones you want are the ones that are in the middle of a flat landscape, aren't they? Like Glastonbury Tour or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yes, they they because that's near you, of course, isn't it? And you know, some are some are a bit cheaty. So Mam Tour in the Peak District is not actually a small hill, but you can start a car park 100 metres from the top. My young nieces in the Lake District, where you went to see them, um, they were on a holiday there, and they did Gumma's Howe, which is the uh overlooks the southern end of Windermere. Oh, I haven't done that one. It's just a little pointy hill, but you get a great view. And even like I did Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh, and it was the highlight of my visit. And obviously, it's that's an urban hill, but actually it gave me such a sense of the place because I'd not really been to Edinburgh much, and you know, and you can see its geography and history when you see it from above. So that's quite cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I might do one of these because my daughter's just got her first pair of hiking boots, and um and now she wants to climb a mountain, so these might be a good mountain to climb, like 100 metres up.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Rosebery topping in the North York Moose is cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Oh, you can see that for miles, can't you? It's such a classic shape.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah, really, you can because they call it Yorkshire's Matterhorn, which is a slightly exaggerated, I think. But but and and of course it inspired Captain Cook. Did you know this story? He he climbed it in 1736, apparently, and that's where he decided to become an explorer and travel the world. No way, I didn't know that. I think he's from Whitby, isn't he? Or somewhere around there. So he climbed it. So um, so that's my first one. Go on, watch it. What's your first one?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So I looked back through the archives and I found the first ever feature I wrote for the magazine 11 years ago, back in 11 years, Joe. Yeah. Wow. So this was an outing on sketching, and I set myself the challenge to sketch daily for fortnight in order to notice a new side of my city. I was living in Bristol at the time. And it's this really appealing idea because if you're like, I don't know, someone who's a bit restless or needs to sort of move around all the time, like to make yourself sit still and observe stuff. Very hard. Really? Yeah, but it really changes how you see things. You know, I discovered so much that I hadn't seen about Bristol before because you really get your eye in. But it's also, you know, in the way that like when you make a Pinterest board or Instagram and saving things and you start to realise, or maybe when you're taking photos, you start to realise these are the things that matter to me. Yes. It's like that. It's like you kind of curating, oh, these are the things I find interesting in Bristol. You know, it just changed how I saw things. Yeah. And so it's a really good, it's a really good thing to do, especially if you're on your own.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah, we like that. And you don't have to be very good at sketching, do you? Because it's about the process, isn't it? Not the end result.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

No, no, not at all. I'm not, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Yeah. Very good. Oh, yes, my next one. This is probably my absolute favourite outing. Taking a train to the sea. And I know we've talked about it before, but it is my favourite journey. I it's the anticipation, isn't it? I think. You know, it's weird because although we we often say, don't we, everywhere in the British Isles is only a day trip from the sea. But I think the reason it's so special for me is because I always lived literally a day trip away. I never lived like half an hour away or down the road, or you know, David's and my partner's from Morecambe.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

It feels like a proper outing, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

He takes it for granted, but we always had to go on a proper outing. So it was always a treat. But yeah, no, the writer, I I'm gonna read what he wrote actually, because I I think he sums it up. He's a very good writer, Travis Elborough, he writes for us quite often. And he said that, you know, the destination boards at Manchester, Piccadilly, Leeds, Chester, London St. Pancreas, and Fenchurch Street proffer the options, respectively, of visits to Blackpool or Morecambe, Scarborough, Landudno, Broadstays, Margate, Southend, and Leon Sea. And he thinks a railway ticket serves as a passport to a place of sights, sea and vinegary fish and chips where parking is no concern of mine. I love that. I love that. It is, it's about travelling light and just having a sort of devil may care attitude, isn't it? It's almost like you're running away.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

And you can really relax on the train as well when you're going to the last destination on the train.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yes, it's because they're the end of the road, aren't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're really nice.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

The station, I mean, it is a it is a crime that it's not still there, but the station at Morecambe was built on a jetty. So it was literally out in the middle of Morecambe Bay. In the sea? Well, yeah, because so what these passengers in Victorian times would get off the train and they would be in the bay, which is just such a great idea. But now, of course, they the you know the station's now in some you know little building back on the edge, and there's just a cafe there. But it must have been so dramatic. Yeah. Anyway, so that was one of my other ones. Right, I'll go in. I'll let you go again.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

So this was fairly recently. This is one in 153. This was Lost Gardens. And I think I partly loved this because the illustrations and the feature were just so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

It was beautiful, yeah. Yeah, I'll put a link to this book actually in this show notes, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Uh yeah, no, good idea. I've always loved these rambling, overgrown gardens, and it kind of takes me back to places I used to go when I was growing up. So I used to go to Rivington Terrace Gardens near Bolton. Oh, I don't know those. Do you not? It's we it was called Le Lord Leverhume Park, was the other one. Oh yes. And it was up on a hill, and it was always this cafe of like hundreds of bikers outside. I don't know why that's relevant. But they had these old structures overgrown with rhododendrons, which I looked up, they're not there anymore, they've taken them away. But it just meant that it was a complete maze. So all of these sort of like bridges and old buildings were taken over, and we you could just play these massive games of hide and seek. It was like a place that was full of imagination when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah, that's nice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

And I think I've I've still got that. So, you know, Lost Gardens of Heligon are amazing if you haven't been like really they're they're fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, they are beautiful, aren't they? Yeah. I like the fact that they've restored them, but they still feel slightly lost.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Well, it's that thing, it's this idea that like you could still find a grotto here. Yes. You know, you could there's there probably are things that they haven't found.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

If fairies exist, that's where they live, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Hawkestone follies in Shropshire, which I've talked about before, it's just just so whimsical. It's like this estate full of follies and grottoes and towers and rope bridges that look like they're out of Switzerland.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Yes, you know what? I'm I meant to go and visit some of the gardens in this feature, and I don't think I have. This is the thing, you've got to sometimes look back through the old issues of the mag, haven't you, and find places you want to go. Right, okay. So I um I could do this forever. We're just about to republish one of my favourite outings actually, in our I'll give our new bookazine a bit of a plug. So we we're doing a bookazine called Homebird, which is our new homes and gardens bookazine, and it's about making the most of where you live. So there are homes, there are gardens, but there's also outings for like, you know, exploring your neighbourhood. And the one of the pieces we're publishing in there is from natural navigator Tristan Gooley, and I know you know him, Joe, and you've interviewed him for us, I think, as well. I mean, and and he did a book on how to read a landscape. But the idea was that you know, it's much more fulfilling to go on a walk if you understand the landscape around you. And so he he revealed some of the clues, and I I love these because you know, I I kind of thought I knew quite a lot of this stuff, but actually, there are always things that you just forget to notice, aren't they? So, you know, like obviously the prevailing wind is from the southwest, so the twigs and branches are like a compass, you know, they point to the northeast in exposed areas, so that's a clue, and then the birds always face into the wind when they're perching so it doesn't ruffle their feathers.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Oh, I didn't know that one. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah, I know I didn't, I'd forgotten that as well. And um, that's really cool. If there's a few lakes and ponds, it's likely the underlying rock is chalk or limestone, something porous because there's not much water around. And even little things like nettles, you know, nettles need lots of phosphate. So the way we work the ground and fertilized fields and things, it means that you're near human settlement. So if you get lost and you see nettles, you know you're approaching like a settlement.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

I love his books and the sort of things because I I kind of retain that knowledge more so than like water forage and things like that. And I think it's because it absolutely makes sense. And one of the things that I always think about is do you remember the thalweg, which is the course of water in a stream or a river where it's it's flowing fastest? Oh yes, yeah. And it's basically how you win at poo sticks. And every time that I'm doing poo sticks with my daughter, I'm like, how competitive shall I be?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Shall I tell her about the thalweg?

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, yeah. Shall I tell her? Shall I tell her about it? I have told her, of course I've told her. But like, so you always know where to put your poo stick. So it's gonna it's gonna win. And that I got that from Tristan. So that's uh that's good.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

They're great. I think there's so many things to take. And it, you know, I would really uh we'll put links to some of his books because they're all great and they're all really you will learn something new on every page, I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Anyway, Joe, I know what you're gonna talk about because you're gonna talk about the one that's in the March issue that's on sale now, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, yeah. So I was really excited to see this. So this was um ready-made trails, walking routes that have minimal navigation, but they also have this sense of purpose. So it's this ready-made trail that might be themed, might not be, but it's just my favourite type of walk because like I love a map, but at the same time, it's nice to put it away and like it's like a coast trail, like a southwest coast path or something like that. Yeah. You don't have to get your map out, you can just keep the sea on your left and keep walking. And it just means that you don't have to think, you can get into the rhythm of the movement, you don't have to get your phone out. I mean, I'd always have a paper map, but like it's just a reason to not have to think about anything other than moving through the landscape.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah, no, because you're not worried about navigating, yeah, exactly. And I think what's interesting as well is you know, these types of trails, you know, they're often very accessible, aren't they, for buggies, wheelchairs, but you can still feel like you're in the hills because there are some of them are old railway lines or they might be to do with an industrial heritage. But you can tempt people out who are reluctant walkers, can't you? As well, especially like now when in March when the weather's remixed and the muddy country walks, not everyone's idea of fun. Yeah. So I think you know, these follow-your-nose trails, as we've been calling them in the magazine, they're just a really good idea to get out in as spring arrives, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

I love as well, they always have these little bits that kind of punctuate it. So, like it might be an outdoor gym with like wooden balance bars. Yeah, I love those, or some poetry, you know, like the Lorry Lee Trail. But also a lot of them have this old heritage, old remnants of industry, like lime kilns and wheelhouses. And so you're learning about the heritage of that landscape because there'll be boards that tell you about it and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, no, you've got a point of focus to your walk, haven't you? And I think that that's that the the opportunity for a bit of side learning is is another way to appeal to a wider group of people who might not otherwise go on a walk. Talking of industrial heritage, so I just talked to someone from Friends of Glass, as I've mentioned, they're a supporter for this season. But I was really surprised to learn that there's a strong heritage of glass making in this country. So a lot of glass is still made here, and there are factories that have been around since the Victorian times. So, anyway, I'm going to play that chat now, and I hope you find it as interesting and informative as I did. So, as listeners all know, um Friends of Glass are sponsoring this season of the podcast. And I'm here with Nolan Kane from Varelia, who are a British glass manufacturer. And uh, welcome Nolan. It's nice to have a chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Thanks for having me on, Lisa. It's great to join you today.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

No problem. Um, so you've just told me something that really quite blew me away, which is that a lot of glass in the UK is actually made here. And and Verrelia, of course, is a is a company doing that. So t tell me a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, 100%. I you know, it's one of the things that really attracted me to joining the glass industry over 10 years ago is that, you know, as a business in the UK, we have two factories, both in Yorkshire, and both the factories have been around.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yay for Yorkshire.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yay! Uh but both the factories have been been there since the 1800s. And you know, if if if we look at our competitor sec in the UK, there are other great glass manufacturers, even more in Yorkshire than us, that have all been making glass in a similar time span.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

So it's actually still a UK manufacturing success story, you know. But I don't think a lot of people will be aware of that. I I didn't really realise glass was still made here in such, you know, a wide range of companies.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, it's uh you know, it's great. We have people that work for us and people that work in the industry that are seventh, eighth generation working in glass. You know, there's towns like Nottingley and Yorkshire that have three glass factories. They don't have much other than that, but they've got three massive glass factories.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So it's the glass capital of the country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, it is. It is.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

So tell me a bit more about, you know, so obviously our listeners now are quite familiar with Friends of Glass because we've been talking about it in this season. But um, tell us why glass is good, first of all.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

You know, even even if we park the history and the manufacturing aspect of UK glass, just glasses itself is fantastic. You know, it's pure, it's inert, it's infinitely recyclable. This is this is one thing that a lot of people don't realize.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

So you can recycle it as many times as you want, basically.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

As many times as you want. And it's also about the wastage as well. So if you put your wine bottle in the recycling bin, 100% of that wine bottle goes back in and becomes another wine bottle. So with other materials there is a pr that are 100% recyclable in theory, there's a high lossage rate to what they're recycling. So not all of it's going to be recycled.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Whereas glass is 100%, which so if you did a life cycle analysis on it, it'd be good. Even though there's some energy costs obviously involved in the recycling process, it's still over the course of the lifetime, because it can be recycled infinitely, it's better.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah. So so the the best way to explain it, and and this is how I always explain it to my kids, is that when you recycle a glass bottle, it's it's like making a p. So when we make a glass bottle from raw materials, it's like making a pizza. Whereas if you recycle it, it's like heating a piece of pizza up.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Okay. Yeah, got you. Okay, that's a that's a good it's not kids' explanations are always the best, aren't they? They make it so much simpler. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

It makes it make sense in my head. But but also with it, on on your point as well, is that you don't always have to recycle. I mean, one of the great things about glass is that it's reusable. You know, uh, we've got an olive oil bottle that I've had since I was in my early 20s in our house, and I'm definitely not in my early 20s anymore. So, you know, there's great aspects to glass, and and one of the great things that we're seeing right now is that reuse is now really starting to come back into trend, and glass sits perfectly within that.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Definitely. I mean, I I've talked about this before on the podcast about my jam jar hoarding that I I do in in the hope that I will eventually make some jam. But I've actually got a cupboard full of jam jars that I'm keeping for this very moment. In the meantime, they're useful, aren't they? You know, screws, curtain rings, buttons. There's loads of things you can keep in jars.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And they'll sit, they'll sit there and they'll sit there for ages. And I think that even if you know, if you look at for storing food, like it's glass is trusted, you know, with with spirits that some of the greatest spirits in the world come from from Scotland and the UK, and they're all in glass, you know, and and some of those spirits sit in bottles for over a hundred years, really. If you think about when they go into into home use, and it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Definitely. We I mean we were talking about. About some of the iconic glass bottles that you remember. And you know, we were talking about like the Orangina bottles, you know, that were kind of it was very cool if you were on holiday in France when you were like a teenager to have an Orangina bottle, you know. And I remember in the 80s going out, you know, and um Grossch was uh with the flit thing. Yeah, that was and of course Grosh was expensive compared to the cheap lager you drank the rest of the time. So actually having a Grosch bottle was like a status symbol.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, well, but but glass glass brings that premium touch to it as well. Yeah, you know, it's it's definitely got a place. And I think lastly, with it, you know, on that hundred hundred percent recyclable point, yeah, it it is such a key part to the circular economy as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, no, I I think that's very true. You know, so we've done this thing in the magazine, which is part of British Glass and Friends of Glass are obviously doing the Glass Champions campaign. And we asked our readers to nominate some Glass Champions, which are brands that are choosing and using Glass and celebrating them. And in the next issue, the April issue, which is coming out very soon, we've got a feature that they've picked some of those brands. And I'm really pleased, I'm I'm slightly giving it away, but there's two brands in there that I use all the time, which is Walida and Neil's Yard, because they they keep their moisturizers and other creams and potions in glass, which is great because it means it lasts longer.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, 100%. And you know, if we look at the world today, cost is such a major thing. So, you know, glass comes into play in in in in, you know, if we're brutally honest with you, more premium situations. But the one thing that I love about the whole Glass Champions campaign is that it really broadens the discussion. So it's it's highlighting the durability, the ability to reuse containers, and and and also highlighting that recycling does really matter. And and that's what I that you know, that's the core parts of the campaign that that I really like and I'm passionate about.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

So I'm pretty sold on glass, but why doesn't everyone use it then? What's the you know, why what's the problem?

unknown 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Well, you tell me. I'd I'd love to know. No, I mean, joke joking aside, yeah, you know, we've got to we've got to be realistic about this, right? Is that everybody's cost basket is key at the moment. And and glass is it's it's heavier, it's more expensive than than plastics. But also with that, there is the new EPR rules that have come into effect in the UK, which are uh glass has got a heavy tax on it at the moment, and and that's making it challenging.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Okay, so it makes plastic cheaper, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah, it makes it makes plastic cheaper. And so the EPR taxes are about investing in the circular economy, which uh myself and and all my colleagues 100% support. But unfortunately, because it's based on weight, glass has got a bit of a bum deal on it. But so so what's what's then happening is that you know some of the commodity high-volume brands that you see in the supermarkets, for instance, are transitioning to plastics, which you know it's a bit frustrating because really if we think about microplastics and and and and and the health and what we want in the long term, it's not where we want to be. The one interesting thing though that a lot of our you know, our customers are saying is that you know, if if consumers are pointing out that they still want glass and they're willing to pay for glass or there's a happy medium, then they should be vocalizing that as well. Because a lot of these changes happen without us noticing it. Yeah. And and we don't know the reason why they're happening. But brands do really care. And you know, if their customers are feeding back that they wanted, you know, certain packaging, they will react to it.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Well, so that was going to be my next question, which is what listeners can do. And you've kind of just said it really, which is choose glass, isn't it? Especially if you're trying to personally reduce your plastic use, which I know a lot of our readers and listeners are. And it's a quite a simple way to contribute to that, isn't it? By choosing brands that are using glass. So Friendsofglass UK is the Instagram. And if you go to friendsofglass.com and search for glass champions, you'll find on the website lots more brands that are mentioned on there. So thanks very much, Nolan. It's been a pleasure to talk and learn a bit more. And who knew glass manufacturers were so prevalent in my home county of Yorkshire? Very pleased to find that out.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Thanks a lot, Lisa.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

See you later. I mean, talking of things that readers can do, have you heard of that citizen geography movement, Slow Ways?

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Oh, yeah, no, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Yeah. So the, you know, the idea that they're connecting rural and urban spaces, but they get volunteers to map the trails. The idea is, you know, that not all walks are good walks. So they're they get people to verify that you know it's it's safe and it's not a not a bad walk or there's no blockages, also, but that like is worth doing. So whether they have to say whether they recommend it to someone else. I think it's really clever. And they've already covered in terms of verified walks. I think you can now walk from Brighton to Cardiff, should you want to, on these verified just piecing together different paths.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah. Because they're not doing new paths, are they? They're just they're just checking old paths.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

No. But I think probably there's a bit of local knowledge about permissive paths in there as well, you know, where you're allowed, but only really locals know that you can go that way, kind of thing. So I think some of that's been added in. But their ambition, you know, it's a big ambition, is to be able to walk from any two towns in the country. Great. They've got quite a few routes already. I mean, I think it's is it 10,000 community mapped A to B routes they've got now?

SPEAKER_01 27:18

So such an undertaking, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah, massive. I mean, you know, a bit of because I think, haven't you met so Daniel Raven Ellison, who's the he he describes himself as a gorilla geographer, which I love that. Yeah, yeah. But you've met him, haven't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah. I've gone on a walk with him. I went on a walk with him when he was wearing this piece of kit that to monitor his emotions in response to different landscapes. So, like, did he feel calmer besides water? I think he walked across the national parks wearing this.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Do you know what came out as like the calmest thing? I bet it was water, wasn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

I can't remember off the top of my head, but we I can link to it because I wrote a feature about it. But um, really interesting guy. Yeah, he's always got some interesting kind of project going on which is of the same sort of educational kind of purpose. And did you see the film that he posted, which I think he made with his son and a drone?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

The one taken from above.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, yeah. So it's just it was a drone shot of him walking through landscapes in national parks. And for every second, how did he put it? It was a hundred seconds.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

So it was it's a it's in a hundred seconds, isn't it? So each landscape represented the number of seconds that was a percentage of a hundred seconds. That's it. So like peat bogs were like 12 seconds because they're 12% of national parks, and it gives you a real sense of what national parks are made up of, aren't they? Because you know, a lot of it is pastureland, but then you know, a lot of it's heaths and moors.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

That's that's our kind of landscape, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Yeah, and also you forget that we do have uh I know they're not wild because they're managed, but they feel wild, don't they? They feel wild, and I think that's the point that you know, we don't think we've got that kind of wildness here, but we do. Yeah, you just have to seek it out, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Well, you've met loads of interesting people and doing what you do, slow traveling. But tell me about tell us about that person who does the roots in Wales.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yes, this is just someone I can't remember their name. I met them at a um a party or drink or something. So this was a person who was responsible for creating new routes and helped with this um circumnavigating Wales route. And I was talking to her and I was thinking, oh my gosh, what a dream job. And then I got talking to her about it, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is the opposite of my dream job because it's mainly just negotiating with angry farmers. It's like a really diplomatic role.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

I don't mean to be dismissive about farmers, it's really important to them, but like no, and also let's you know, make the point, not all farmers are angry, but some are, and some are with justification, of course, as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But as someone who doesn't like confrontational, I really wouldn't like that job.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

No, there's a lot of diplomacy.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

But yeah, it's just it's actually really difficult, isn't it, to negotiate like can people walk through your land? Um, but what an achievement to be able to create this path that goes all the way around the coast of Wales and then back down, I guess, down the office dyke. Maybe what an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

The Slow Ways people have have got a new citizen geography project now called Make Ways. And while Slow Ways shows the good ways to go, Makeways enables people to map the ways they'd like to go but can't. So they can tick ways that are good and scrub out ways that don't work and record obstacles, but they can also put on there where they wish there was a way, you know, that this would cut out this horrible bypass, or if you went this way, it would, you know, make this walk more interesting. And and and it's kind of almost the first stage, isn't it? Because if you don't map it, then you can't ask for it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

I like that. I think it's interesting because you know, most people in the end don't really want to walk regularly in open access land in the middle of nowhere, do they? They they want to walk where they live.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, like a walk from the door, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

And and actually, so that I think it's really interesting what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah. I always find it quite interesting because I I want to walk from the door and do often, but there's often places where you kind of have to go and you're like, you know, lots of local people do it, but you don't actually know what the permission is with that land. I personally don't like to trespass, it makes me stressed, but my partner does. And so we end up getting into these sort of like um situations, or you or like you know, the local landowners put like a bull in the field that you didn't know about, and you're halfway across the field. Do you like that kind of thing, or do you like a proper trail?

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I'm quite happy to cut through places or walk paths that I've always used, even if I know they're not technically, you know, legal.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

But actually, you know, I found it really changed because in lockdown it brought a surge of people out walking, yeah, and landowners started policing more, basically. And you know, they it was understandable because you know there was a lot less respect shown towards private land and people were just going wherever they felt like really, which you know was understandable from both sides, really, I think at that particularly difficult time. But now I, you know, there are lots more signs up and there are lots more, and if there's a sign up, you kind of feel a bit more like you're breaking the rule, don't you? Whereas if if there's no side up, you kind of think, oh, well, you know, it doesn't really matter. But yeah, I it's not like you're causing any bother. It's not like you're cutting down fences or destroying walls or whatever. But it is a tricky one, isn't it? I I I I don't know. I think we're generally a quite law-abiding public, aren't we? And we don't really feel comfortable about trespassing.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah. I mean, I've I've come up against this quite a lot because I used to work for back in my 20s, another magazine where I used to do walking routes. And so I I was a person that got lost, so you didn't have to. So I'd I'd go on these walks generally on my own and map them, like that, you know, turn left here, right here, over the style, things like that. But that just meant that I was always going through like land that was like, is this permissive, is it not? Is you know, it's always facing fields of bullocks, basically. Like, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

No, it was the it's the same with mountain bike routes. There's always a bit where, you know, it's technically a route, but actually there's always a bit where you have to carry your bike, you know, um, because they, you know, the land is so trashed it's unrideable, you know. And oh, they're just such bugbears on bad routes, aren't they? Um I think my my bugbear about a bad route is when you're going along and it's a nice walk, and then suddenly you hit a new housing estate that's not even on the map yet, you know, and you're in a cul-de-sac, and and you thought you were in a nice, you know, rural walk, and suddenly you're walking between brand new houses. And it just annoys me. And yeah, of course, if you do edgelands, you get that quite a lot, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think you're probably picking up on it. Mine's cows. Uh I have a fun with cows in in general, it's just being in a field of cows. And I think it's because when I was younger, we used to go on a lot of walks when I was um when I was a kid, and we got chased by a whole field of bullocks, and my dad just pegged it and left us, just left us to deal with it because he's really tall and really fast.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

It's scarred you, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

It really has, it really hasn't. Now I I I will walk through fields with cows, but I I'm not relaxed at all.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Let's find the positive though. The positive on a on a good walk is when you find an unexpected beauty spot, isn't it? You know, whether it's a view or a lake, and you genuinely feel like you're the first person to have found it.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Or a field full of buttercups. If I did if I just stumble across something like that, doesn't think it doesn't have to be anything big, does it? No, no, just something unexpected.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, it could be really transient.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

I do like it when I'm exploring something new, and that leads nicely on to our story, which is about going a roaming, and that's all I'm going to say for now. An arm and an oar. A short story by Lisa Blower. Her bag has so much in it she has to sit on it to zip it. She won't show me what she's packed, but she'll survive, she says. I ask her where she's going. Just a roaming, she says. She's drawn a watch on her wrist, checks its time. I have to go. She keeps her eyes low. Time's very fast. I nod, but I bite my lip, but think, This is really going to happen. And I'm not ready. I ask her what else she needs. She has plaster, she says. An atlas. Good, I say, encouragingly. And a taxi card, she says, in case my legs get tired. Okay, I say. I look at her feet. What will you wear? Walking boots, of course. A hat? No. You want me to look after it? She thinks about it. Don't give it to Margot, she says. Her head is too big. I watch her check her watch again. It's nearly time, she says. I know, I nod. I know. She picks up her bag. It's heavy. She must have packed books. She puts it down again. Have you changed your mind? She picks it up again with her other hand, and this time throws it over her shoulder like it only carries shells. Want me to carry your bag down the stairs? She nods, walks ahead of me as she's always one step ahead of me and bounding. I bite my lip again. Feel my stomach flip. It's a big bad world out there, I warn. You'll ring me when you get to a roaming, promise. She grimaces. How can I do that? You won't let me have a phone. I put the bag beside the front door and watch her struggle with the laces on her boots. I should bend down and help her, but I remember I'm angry. She wants to be older, doesn't want to be bossed. Everyone in the world has a phone, so she's leaving, and taking all those things we've said with her. She jumps up to reach her coat, pulls it on, heads for the door, picks up her bag. Bye then, she says. I unlock the door, and out into the world she goes to roam. You know there's an arm inside of the word roam, I call after her one that cuddles and holds you steady and there's an oar too to steer you in the right direction. An arm and an oar. Don't forget that but she goes anyway. Gets to the bottom of the street, stops, looks back. I close the door but leave it on the latch. Later as I tuck her up, she tells me that she will go a roaming when I'm bigger, she says, and have a phone. I know you will. I kiss her forehead and smell the world at her feet. We can go a roaming in the park tomorrow. Find the bugs like proper explorers. But she's travelled enough for one day and is fast asleep. I think we all want to go a roaming again now and again, don't we? I mean, most of us like a walk with purpose, and I think maybe that's why we like foraging. And we, you know, we're big fans of foraging in the simple things. But we've got and we've got a piece in our new April issue, which is going to be out in about a week's time. And it's about magnolias. Well, it's not just about magnolias, it's about blossoms generally. But the magnolias are what caught my attention because I didn't even realise magnolia petals were edible. No, I didn't know that. I know, and they've got them in a salad and these delicious sounding ginger drop scones with magnolia petals in.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Lovely.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

And in March issue, we were obviously a bit obsessed with magnolia this spring because we did how to drink magnolia, and you can put dried magnolia flowers in hot chocolate and it gives it an extra bit of oomph, I think.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

I didn't know that at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I I fancy trying that because I've got two magnolia in my garden. I've got the the stellata, the white one that is flowers very early, and it's right in front of my study window here, actually. So that's very nice, and it's always the sign that spring is here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

And then I've got the the one that's in so many front gardens, the grandi flora with the slightly pinky white big petals. And I think those are the petals they use in the foraging. But she's she's also done a cherry blossom panicotta, our contributor, which sounds delish. Yeah. But yeah, I mean that those are those are sort of more garden foraging almost, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah, and there's a there's a lot of hetero foraging you can do at this time of year as well. So elderflower, obviously. Yeah, which is just yeah, I've got some there's some good tips on there, which I'll come back to, but also hawthorn.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Well, we've got these features, we're reproducing them, we're publishing them. I've got one on elderflower and hawthorn going into the homebird book cuisine. And we've also got some autumn and summer foraging ones in there as well. That um they they were really lovely pieces, these, but you're right, there were some good tips. So come on, give us give us some good wise words on elderflowers.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

So choose trees and hedgerows that are away from busy roads, otherwise, you know, you'll be picking things that are affected by pollution. But choose like hawthorn tips when they're young and flushed pink, because once they go darker green, they're still edible, but they're a little tough.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Ah, interesting. And it and it it's the tips you're going to use, isn't it? Because you can put them in not the flowers at so much. It's uh you put them in like a wild salad, can't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:03

But there's also tight timing's really important because early morning is the best time to pick elder flower heads so that the insects haven't visited and taken the nectar for that day.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Oh, so presumably that makes them sweeter if the nectar's still there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Yeah. Choose the heads that haven't yet entirely opened because then they'll be younger and sweeter.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Uh very good, very good. And of course, it's a great time for wild garlic, everyone's favourite modern foraging. Yeah, which is one of the easiest. Yeah, exactly. And and nettles, you know. Um, and we I I should say we've got recipes on the blog for lots of them for elderflower. We've got cakes, fizz, even a skin toner, and lots of wild garlic. We've got soup, we've got pesto, we've got risotto and a savory scone. So I'll I'll assemble a selection of links to those on our show notes. But uh, I know you like a making a wild garlic pesto, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Good stuff. So, Mother's Day. We said we'd talk about it because it is today if you're listening as re-release. And we've got a lovely feature in our March issue, which is the one still on sale. And it's about the fine art of mothering. And this is an artist, and I know you've been looking at her work, Joe, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, no, I really liked it because it's these it was capturing these really tender mothering moments that if you captured them with by taking a photo, it would either interrupt the moment or it would seem really intrusive if it was someone else. And I think you have so many of these, especially when you've got young children, babies, that it was just felt really nice that she captured them in really painterly style that it felt really timeless as opposed to a photo.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

And it made me think of these little moments that mean stuff to you. And like I was thinking about my daughter, and like my daughter's like a sensory seeker, she always has to be touching me or something and bouncing off furniture, she interacts with all the furniture, and I get I get really touched out, but it's always these casual moments of touch that I remember. So, like I was sharing a bed with her on holiday recently, and she was she was asleep and I obviously wasn't, and um, she had her legs over my back because she needed to be touching me at all times, and I was like, I can't obviously can't sleep, but like this is such a sweet moment, like I don't want to move because I know that that's the contact she needs to feel safe to go to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Oh, that that is beautiful, and I think sorry, I've forgotten the artist's name, but we'll uh Caroline Walker, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, and what she captured, you know, because like some of them were in them like a maternity ward and things, weren't they? Where you know you you can't be taking a photograph, but she just captured these very tender moments and I found them really fascinating, the art. And you do have these mothering moments, even if you don't have kids of your own, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Exactly, yeah. I was I was thinking about this because um I have these moments like when I drop off my daughter to school, my friend's daughter who's in the same class, she's got a little sister, and sometimes the uh she's three and she just like casually goes to hold my hand because I know her that well, and like it really, it really touches me because it's just like I have this sort of comfortable relationship with her, and it's it doesn't have to be your own child, it could be a friend's child or a niece. And seeing the interactions between this little girl and my daughter, because they're three and five, it's really poignant because we weren't able to have a you know a second kid, and yet they've got this really lovely relationship, and it's like you know, there's these tender little moments are just yeah, they're really heartwarming, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

And actually, it's often the moments that you haven't captured on photos that you kind of remember. Obviously, my daughter's well, she turned 20 last week, which is quite scary, yeah. But but you know, I think the thing that I remember most from her childhood is her curiosity, particularly in nature, and the play she found for herself in outdoor spaces. And it's a real reminder to you as a mother, I think, to be curious and notice and not stop doing that. But these are not in any photo album, they're just memories, you know, of her. Like we never had a sand pit. She just would go in the greenhouse and start digging with plant pots sit in the mud, you know. And even when they're a young child, you can learn so much from kids, can't you? I think that's what we need to remember. Yeah. Very interesting. We've done a few pieces over the years to celebrate Mother's Day, I think. And um there was a wisdom that you did, which was people who'd learned from their mothers, wasn't it? It was like uh you you picked selection out, and there's a couple of really good stories that I I think you should share.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Yeah, no, I really enjoyed this. So people who either inherited some things, some quality or some actual things, or followed in their footsteps in terms of their careers. So there was um Zosia Brett, who's an artist and workshop leader in Bath, and her mother's childhood story was, I mean, it was just wild. Like she, her mum was born into a Polish air raid shelter seven days after the Second World War broke out. And like, you know, her grandparents were just this happily married young couple expecting their first baby. Their grandfather was a pilot instructor, and so he left for the border on day one. Sosha's mum didn't meet her dad until she was six when the war ended. And they travelled through the Alps, through Czechoslovakia and the Italian Alps, to go and meet him when he was in Italy. And she just remembers this first time she met him and him taking her into a doll shop and saying, Buy any doll that you want. And she still has this doll.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

You know, it's like what a what a crazy start to well, such a moment because she didn't meet until she was six.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah, she must have had this whole imaginary dad in her head for like the first five years of her life, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yeah, so obviously, like then when Zosia's mum moved to the UK, she had to, she never moved, she never she stayed in the same house. She didn't want to move, basically. Yeah, and she also didn't want to get rid of anything, and so she kept all of this craft stuff that she's accumulated it over the years, and then Zosia inherited it, and now she's sharing it with people in these workshops.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

What a beautiful story, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

It's really nice, and it's also you know, she inherited her playfulness that you had all this stuff, so you could just use it. You didn't, you weren't precious about anything, and that's what she's kind of captured, which is really nice. And there was also Rashine Taylor from the Verde Flower Co. And she's a flower grower. And her mum, Caroline, was known as the rebellious flower grower because she was always the one that had this inedible allotment that was just flowers upon flowers, and there was nothing, it was really giggled-biggled, there was nothing you could actually eat in there.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Before people knew what cutting gardens were. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah, exactly. Her and her sister would grow up there as these feral children stealing peas and pocketing fossils from the riverbank. She's carried on this kind of rebelliousness because her mum was a journalist and kind of had this activism through her writing. And then she's carried it on through like picking up the mantle, and she's wanting to make change within the flower-growing industry. So she's paused her actual growing of flowers in order to advocate for people and make change. And that's really nice because it's the same values but just played out in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah, so both those women had massive influences from the mum, but in very different ways, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

And it, you know, there's a sense of belonging that comes with that, isn't there? From you know, you know, inheriting not just possessions from your parents, but attitudes and values. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I know you've you've done quite a lot of thinking and writing about belonging because in your book, Slow Traveler, which we mention regularly, but actually, you you know, tell us tell us a bit about how the sense of belonging comes from where you live or where you travel or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

So I found this really interesting because obviously travel is something that you think about that you go away to do, right? You can take a lot of the the sort of qualities of slow travel and bring them back to where where you are, and that can help you feel really rooted and connected to a place because that's what slow travel is about, is about connecting to landscape, to people, to culture. And I really thought about this, and it made me think about when I moved to Brighton, and I really wanted to feel like I was more at home there, you know. And how I did that was I ended up walking and rewalking the same paths and the same places. So I'd I'd walk along Meanders of the River Cookmore Haven, and I'd return time and time again to say Hastings Old Town, and I'd eat at the same place, the rock and all spoke house, and sit on the beach there.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

And is that to try and make it a familiar thing for you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Because it was so, you know, I'd never lived in the southeast before. It was so unfamiliar. You know, the landscape was so the geology of it, the uh you know, everything was unfamiliar. So it was trying to make it feel like home. But the one that I used to do, I used to live on the edge of um Brighton, right on the Downs, and I'd walk to Lewis to swim in Pell's Pool, the Spring Fed pool, which must be one of the coldest lidos in the country. Yeah, I'd do it most weekends. Just, I don't know, it just helped ground me in that place. But yeah, do you do you have ways of doing that?

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Yeah, I think you know, dry stone walls. It's dry stone walls for me. They're they're the thing that make somewhere feel like home. And you know, obviously I grew up in the Pennines and they were just there, you know. I I didn't realise places didn't have dry stone walls, you know. It was like because everywhere I looked, they were there. But actually, it's obviously dry stone walls come with hills, really. You know, that's what they're there for to keep livestock in, aren't they? But but ironically, for the last 15 years I've lived in Sussex, where there are no dry stone walls, and and it's one of the most wooded counties in the country. And I love the bluebell woods and the ancient copies as you get here, but it's not where I belong. I I absolutely love them. As I drive north, my heart lifts. And when I get to Derbyshire, I start seeing dry stone walls, and it's really about the Pennines, it's it's not every bit of Yorkshire or you know, it's it is about the Pennine Hills, and that's where I belong, and I I feel it very in my bones, you know.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yeah, same, absolutely the same.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

It's great that I've got a place that I feel like that about because I'm sure some people don't have that uh or never find it, you know, never know where it is. It's very interesting. So we are at the stage of our episode where we revisit old intentions. I may be forcing an intention on you in this section, Joe, because I'm not sure whether you just talked about this or whether you said you were going to do it. But anyway, we did an episode way back in our first season of the podcast called Wonder, and you talked about night hikes. And I don't know whether you were thinking saying you were going to do more of them, but I know you've done some in the past. So, what do you think? Do you think you might do a bit more night hiking now? The days are getting a bit longer.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

I haven't particularly done more night hiking since those episodes, but I would still like to. You know, like I do, you know, I do enjoy going on like walks in the dark with the dog and things like that. But I do I would like to be more intentional about that, especially when the days are getting a bit longer and you get that nice twilight time. Yeah, so that is something.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Yes, no, they're not sort of dead of night walks, but twilight walks, really. That's very nice. Well, I talked about the edgelands that I explored in lockdown, you know, places that opened up like north of me. Normally they'd be overflying by planes in because of Gatwick Airport, and actually they were very quiet, unspoilt places because there was no flights. And um, and I explored a lot of places that I'd never been to before. And I thought I'd carry on doing this, not not so much under the flight path, but other places around me that I hadn't. And I I kind of had a phase, you know, I started following streams where they joined bigger rivers and you know, uh points of focus on walks. But I need to get my maps out again and give it a go. Because I, for me, there's no surprise better than one that's on your doorstep, really.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

I think that's very interesting. So don't forget that making the most of where you live is the theme of our new homeboy cuisine, and that's now open for pre-orders, and you get a 10% discount off it until the 25th of March when it comes back from the printers. And actually, if you're a subscriber to The Simple Things, check your emails because there's a special pre-order thank you price on those. And so thanks to Friends of Glass for supporting this season. Hope you enjoyed our chat with them earlier. And find out more about what we're talking about at the Friends of Glass website and their Instagram, Friends of Glass UK, and the links to both will be in the show notes. Thanks to Joe, who's now fully ready for some spring wandering. Yeah, I've got loads of ideas now. Very good. And I'm going to be back next week with Bex for the final episode of this dawn season, which has gone quite quickly, I think. We're we're hoping to rise and shine, though, at the very end, in time for the clocks going forward at the end of the month. We'll be finding balance at this pivot point of the year. Well, in theory, anyway. Um, the March issues out now. April issue will be available to order from the 20th of March and in shops from the 27th of March. And an immediate start subscription will let you get either of these. You can choose either one um straight away. And the links are, as I say, in our show notes. So that's bye from both of us, and thanks for listening.