Crafting Stories Through Audio Description: A Conversation with Lee Pugsley, Luke Salewski & Virtic Brown

Join us for a chat with Lee Pugsley, actor in the award-winning film "Audio Description," director Luke Salewski, and documentary filmmaker Virtic Brown as they discuss the art of audio description in filmmaking.

Discover how audio descriptions enhance viewing experiences, even in comedic scenes like the plastic sand in "Barbie." We explore the nuances and timing needed for effective audio descriptions and recognize audio describers like Liz Gutman and Tristan Snyder.

Virtic shares her experiences working within the disabled community, while Lee and Luke discuss the unique storytelling and impactful use of audio description in their film. Tune in for personal stories and the impact of community efforts in inclusive filmmaking.

For our listeners, CFA’s teamed up with We Make Movies to get you a discount on production management services, including access to comprehensive production insurance and workers' comp for your next shoot. 

Visit wemakemovies.org/insurance and use code CFA23 on your intake form for 10% off your quote.

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Cinematography for Actors is a community aimed at bridging the gap between talent & crew through our weekly podcast & community events. Our weekly show supports the filmmaking community through transparent, honest & technically focused interviews with the goal of elevating the art of effective storytelling.

Transcript

Exploring Audio Description in Filmmaking

Speaker 1 0:00

You know it doesn't make me nervous, actually, because, number one, there's always editing, so I'm always like protected by that, you know. Number two, just like being an actor, a director and producer on projects. I know the way that my mind thinks. So if I know what I need to prepare, like my mind's automatically going to go to that. And I mean even, like you know, I'll have conversations with Vertice about the behind the scenes stuff and I'm like, oh, do we have this in place? Do we have this in place? And Vertice is always like Lee, don't worry about this, just focus on you being you this is the cinematography for actors podcast more than a podcast.

Speaker 3 0:39

cinematography for actors is a vibrant community devoted to bridging the gap between talent and crew. Each week, our show offers transparent, insightful conversations with industry leaders. We unveil the magic behind the scenes, from candid discussions about unique filmmaking processes to in-depth technical exploration. Join us in unraveling the intricacies of filmmaking, one episode at a time. It's more than just cameras and lenses we aim to inspire, educate and empower as we peel back the curtain on the art of effective storytelling. Now on to the episode. Hi everybody. Welcome to an episode of the Cinematography for Actors podcast. I am your host, haley Royal, here with your co-host, indiana Underhill. We are seated here with Leigh Pugsley, luke Zelesky and Vertice Emile Brown.

Speaker 3 1:26

Yes, Okay amazing Welcome guys. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 4 1:30

Thank you for having us. Thank you.

Speaker 3 1:32

So excited to have you here. We were really lucky to be invited to the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge Awards and Leigh's film audio description was a winner and we loved it and I'm handing it over to Indiana Because I'm a real fan girl this movie.

Speaker 2 1:49

I am really excited that we are here with you guys today because immediately from watching congratulations, by the way, on winning the best film award- Thank you so much what an incredible accomplishment.

Speaker 2 2:00

And I felt like there had to be some redemption there, because while we were watching all the awards and you kept coming up, I kept wanting to see the Hot Pocket scene and I just kept wanting to see that. I was like, oh, from the moment it came up as a teaser for one of the awards you were going to win, you were nominated for, I was like, oh, this looks so good.

Speaker 3 2:20

We laughed so hard. Yes, the first time we saw that Hot Pocket pocket teaser, we laughed so hard and it almost felt inappropriate.

Speaker 2 2:28

yeah, and so I'm really excited that you guys won that award because it felt like, okay, we it's been teased so many times I need to watch this film and we finally got to watch it. And and vertice, obviously you're doing a documentary on lee that we're going to dive into as well, um, but here at c we talk a lot about the technical, practical and creative aspects of filmmaking, so how we can be better collaborators, and I think audio description is such a great idea. Lee, when you're like watching things with audio, you know, when you have audio description on normally, are you noticing how writing changes based off of, like how quickly people are having to kind of describe what's happening?

Speaker 1 3:06

Definitely, I think, and I tell everyone you know that wants to be a writer, that is a writer that doesn't know what audio description is of like. If you want to be a writer, then watch a film or TV show with audio description and watch a lot of them, because what it does is it helps you understand how to paint a visual picture with words, but how to do it very concisely. And even though, like, an audio description script is very different from a screenplay, I think that there are still principles that apply there and it is interesting to see how different audio description writers choose different types of information to describe, and I think it's really challenging because you know there's you know, even in this environment, here, there's like 5 million things that could be described right now. So it's like we have to choose what are the most important things that are really going to advance the story and add to the environment or the moment that's happening right now.

Favorite Types of Audio Description

Speaker 2 4:02

Fantastic. So what are your favorite types of audio description, like when you're talking about being concise, what are the things that you want to hear?

Speaker 1 4:09

What I want to hear is I want to hear about the environment like little details.

Speaker 1 4:14

So a great example of the environment would be like the audio description for Barbie was fantastic because you know at the beginning to have, like you know know, the empty cups or her taking a shower with no water, or the plastic sand, those kinds of things that visually I would understand what's going on. But I might not catch those nuanced details of the production design and it's valuable to describe those because it plays into the comedy of the film and that's really helpful to me to understand what is this environment that's adding to the mood or adding to the humor. And other times, you know, there might be environments that not everything is necessary to be described because it doesn't really add anything to the environment in a big way, and I'd rather have them describe, you know, what someone is doing, or a picture on the wall that has value rather than oh, it's a desk made of oak wood. You know, sometimes that's important and sometimes it's okay to just kind of let that one go by the wayside.

Speaker 2 5:14

Wow, does it give away things Like? Does it foreshadow a lot when they choose to make it about the oak wood desk, because you know later that that's going to come in?

Speaker 1 5:25

That's really a great question. And sometimes it's interesting because they will say things like that, you know, like the Oakwood desk, and then they'll call it back later. So whenever they talk about something very specific in terms of the environment, or a specific picture or a little detail, I always take note of that because I'm like I bet that's going to be important later. And you know, sometimes it is and other times it's not. So sometimes I'll be waiting the whole film or TV show to be like, okay, what's the meaning of this, what's the value of this? And then it never comes back in and I'm like, oh man, that was a little disappointing, yeah. But you know, it's like. You know, it's like, once again, each audio describer, each audio description narrator, has their own style and I think that makes it really fun and unique because it's going to be slightly varied.

Speaker 5 6:15

And I think the timing plays a big role in how what can be said when it can be said. Lee and I were actually watching survivor together last week with audio description um, and it was funny because, like you know, they have the music building up like oh, who's gonna win this challenge? And then the audio describer says who wins before they actually win. Because because right when they win they like you know, they're cheering and then they start talking and so it's kind of the only place they can fit in that that bit. So you do get like little spoilers like that, but I mean for the most part they they work as well as they can to like keep, keep the um bits that they're describing not too far ahead of what's happening, but you do have to sometimes do it a little before or a it. And are there favorite narrators that you have?

Speaker 3 7:25

Are there certain audio description writers and do you have a favorite? Are they? Do they have a face here or do they kind of hide behind it to keep you know? Keep the story what it is.

Speaker 1 7:37

So that's another great question. And there is a whole industry that's comprised of audio description writers and narrators and I actually I don't want to be, I don't want to do a shameless plug here, but I actually do a podcast with another visually impaired friend and we have interviewed a lot of audio description writers and narrators on there. So I've learned a lot about audio description through that. And yeah, we do have some favorite audio description writers and narrators, like one of my favorites her name is Liz Gutman. She worked on Maestro and a few other, a bunch of other movies. She does a lot for Netflix and I'm really a big fan of her. So whenever, like at the end, they'll say, like you know, the audio description was written by Liz Gutman, I'm always a big fan of her. So whenever, like at the end, they'll say, like you know, the audio description was written by Liz Gutman, I'm always so excited.

Speaker 1 8:28

And then narration wise, that's also very interesting too because, like, they really put a lot of time and consideration into like, what kind of voice do we want? So, for example, if you're watching, like, a Michael Bay action movie, you're probably not going to get a soft-spoken woman to you know, narrate that. But if you're doing a Disney movie, you're going to want, you know, someone that maybe has a little more colorful Disney flair to their voice. And so, in terms of narrators, one of my favorite narrators, his name is Tristan Snyder, and he did audio description narration for Anatomy of a Fall, among many other credits as well. Yeah, I love that movie as well.

Speaker 3 9:11

Yeah, hold on, I want you to do a shameless plug there please.

Speaker 1 9:16

Okay, so my podcast is called the Dark Room because me and my other friend, who are visually impaired, we're both big movie buffs. I mean, we probably go to the theater close to 100 times a year and we always use audio description when we go now, and sometimes it's hit or miss, but that's a whole nother story, where sometimes the devices work properly and other times it's a little frustrating. But because of that we've gotten familiar with a lot of audio description narrators and audio description, uh, writers, and so we started this podcast just to kind of start the conversation about accessibility and to try to and to open up the dialogue about how blind and low vision people experience media. And you know we're not like here to, like you know, guilt anyone or to, like you know, be negative about anything. But you know we're not like here to, like you know, guilt anyone or to, like you know, be negative about anything. But you know it's like there's always a learning curve, right we'll, you only know what you know, and I can't expect someone who hasn't been in my shoes to know how I experience media. But what I can do is I can start the conversation and help educate them to give a deeper level of understanding to all individuals, hopefully, and so that's what we strive to do.

Speaker 1 10:27

But we're also nerds too, so we'll do like you know top 10 lists.

Speaker 1 10:30

We'll do like we just did an episode on our favorite Spider-Man movies and we ranked them, and then we'll also bring in some industry professionals, like we've had a disabled actor on our podcast before, a disabled film director on our podcast before, and then we've had a disabled actor on our podcast before, a disabled film director on our podcast before.

Speaker 1 10:46

And then we've had a lot of interviews with audio description writers and narrators, and actually one of the coolest things that we did this year earlier was an Oscars audio description roundtable where we got audio description writers and narrators from seven of the 10 best picture films, writers and narrators from seven of the 10 best picture films, and we did a panel with them where we just went down me and my co-host, alex, moderated the panel and we just asked them questions like what was the most challenging scene to do audio description for, what scene are you most proud of? And then we asked them very specific questions about each movie individually and it was really cool and it was just such a pleasure and privilege to be able to bring that to audiences and listeners how fantastic is that?

Speaker 2 11:32

I think we'll have to definitely do um a spotlight on your podcast lee on this channel. So I think that's great. It was like such a. I'll let people you know watch it because it's available on youtube to check out. But and you'll be at like some incredible Oscar qualifying festivals with it, because you know it's an incredible film. But I I was so moved by the end Cause it's bittersweet Like, it's like this sad kind of like well, next one, I want to do this kind of movie and I just like I it ended on such a wonderful note where, um, you know, you obviously won, I think, a $15,000 grant right To to kind of continue it on. So what are the plans to to um? Are you like doing a pilot? Are you, are you trying to make it a longer film? Like, what is the kind of next journey for this film?

Speaker 5 12:15

I think the plan is to, uh, I mean, we, we are currently actually developing it into a feature. Um, now, that being said, we're not like currently making it but, you know we're working on the script and you know hoping we can connect with the right people to help make a feature version of this happen. That's so great, but that's kind of the dream with it.

Speaker 2 12:38

Yeah, I think it definitely has such a world we can all like live in together and I think I was so like I felt so connected to Lee in that movie, so I'm so glad I've seen it Now Vertice.

Speaker 2 12:50

You know Lee was saying that you introduced him to the Easter Seals Disability Film Challenge. We obviously know you because we did education for the film challenge this year, which we were so excited to meet everyone in the community, including yourself, how you're doing a documentary on Lee. Can you talk to us about how that came to fruition and what that journey has been like for you?

Acting, Writing, and Disability Representation

Speaker 4 13:10

Absolutely. I'm a member of the Writers Guild and I'm on the Disabled Writers Committee and we had a. We were having a scene night and Lee was one of the actors in the scene night. I think you were in about three scenes, three or four.

Speaker 1 13:23

Yeah, correct, I think it was three.

Speaker 4 13:24

Three, and I was so impressed I thought you didn't have to memorize the script because everyone had scripts in their hand but he memorized the entire thing and I thought that's really impressive. So afterwards there was a reception and we started talking, which continued into the garage, the parking garage. I think I might have given you a ride home, I don't know, but I just felt very connected to him in that space. And there's something called the Media Access Awards. I don't know if you've heard of it.

Speaker 2 13:55

Nick has told me a little about it.

Speaker 4 13:57

It's amazing. It's basically, for those who may not know, it's an award show for the disabled community. I would say, in comparison to the Oscars, I mean it really is amazing. And the committee that I'm on at the Writers Guild they vote on some of the awards, and so now I'm at the award show and I hear Nick talking about the Disability Film Challenge and I thought, well, I want to do that. And I thought, well, who would I want to make a film with? And Lee came to mind. He was the first person, so I reached out to him. And then another fellow writer on the disabled committee at the guild, she came aboard. She had ironically moved to New York, so we were writing.

Speaker 4 14:35

We didn't have five days like you guys, we had like three days. Yeah, it was. It was really, it was really different. So on Friday, I think, we got the assignment and we were writing back and forth and I went to the to record the music with the composer and he didn writing back and forth. And I went to the uh to record the music with the composer and he didn't even know. We didn't have an idea as to what the film was going to be about. But we finished writing the film, along with the help of my producers, and then we got the location and we shot on Saturday and a little bit on Sunday.

Speaker 2 15:03

Yeah, and so how much um of this documentary that you're currently shooting, like with you two together, how much have you shot?

Speaker 4 15:12

40, we're about. We've shot about 40%. We still have about 60 to do and, of course, the 60 that we have to do is definitely very involved. So we are we're looking for strategic partners right now because we want to finish this or finish shooting, if not the end of this year, top of next year Fantastic. So we started shooting at the very end of 2021. We had some wonderful companies who came aboard and donated some of their equipment, like Red and some other really wonderful people, and it has been such a beautiful, beautiful opportunity, not only for Lee to invite us into his life, but also to see the world or see a person with a disability as an artist and some of the things that challenges that they have, and it's just been beautiful. So very appreciative Now.

Speaker 2 16:01

Lee, for the stuff that you're acting in, because you know Vertice is talking about. You did three or four scenes that night and had it all memorized. Because you know Vertice is talking about, you did three or four scenes that night and had it all memorized. Is there a pressure to kind of memorize it? Or when you're preparing sides, you know for something alternatively to memorizing, are you bringing a device with you in order to kind of have your sides with you, or what would that kind of look like if you hadn't memorized it?

Speaker 1 16:24

So I do have some magnification devices and, depending on you know like how big the font is and what level of magnification my devices are, I could use a magnifying glass and you know, just like scan it over the text, but for me I feel like I'm so slow when I do that.

Speaker 1 16:47

So fortunately, I do have a very quick memory, which is helpful, so I can memorize things very quickly and anytime I've done any kind of like you know, acting role whether it's in theater, film or, you know, a reading I just prefer to memorize the text, because it makes it a lot easier for me to play off of the other people that I'm working with and even, like I do, you know, private acting coaching from time to time. And if I'm doing a scene with someone that I'm coaching, I will memorize the parts that I'm supposed to be reading for them, rather than just reading them along with them Once again, just because it's easier for me to focus on what they're doing at that point in time and to give them direction, because I'm not stuck in the text, I just have it in my mind. So, basically, my modus operandum is memorize everything.

Audio Description in Film Production

Speaker 2 17:40

Yes, I get that. I'm always impressed Like Haley is the actor side of cinematography, for actors and I, you know, have a terrible memory and I'm always very impressed when you know an actor can sit there and like 10 minutes later, be like, or you know however long it takes. But just memorization is such a skill and so it's so incredible when you're like I have you know, I have a pretty good memory and I'm lucky to have it. I'm like it's just such a skill, you know, it's such a part of the role. Lee and Luke, this was kind of the opportunity to show what proper like I know this is done, but show kind of like what your ideal description looks like in a way, even though you're, like you know, playing the character in it too. But it also shows a way that a script should be written so that you have the amount of time that you need in order to visually describe it right, Like was this a fun kind of case study for audio description.

Speaker 3 18:28

Yeah, it's a purpose-built film for audio description, which is not common.

Speaker 5 18:33

Well, it was interesting because I actually had to do two copies of the script. So you know, most of you that write scripts would know that, like generally, one page of script is one minute of film and so, but with audio description you're adding in a lot more audio or a lot more dialogue. Generally, one page of script is one minute of film and so, but with audio description you're adding in a lot more audio or a lot more dialogue. And so I wrote a second draft of the script that included the audio description, and I kind of had to do them in tandem so I could see, all right, what's the timing gonna be, but then also what's the audio description that needs to be in here, to make sense of what's happening.

Speaker 5 19:11

So that was a really super unique process and yeah, I don't know it was really fun and it felt fresh and new.

Speaker 1 19:23

Yeah, it was really cool, and I mean props to Luke, because this was his idea to kind of merge audio description as, like an actual character.

Speaker 1 19:33

It's something that I wish I had the brilliance to think of that concept, but I didn't.

Speaker 1 19:38

I mean, he sent me, you know, a draft and you know I would give him notes on it and we would do that a little bit back and forth, and I definitely helped him develop more of the script, but I mean, the writing and the concept was all Luke.

Speaker 1 19:52

What I loved about the script, though, is that it brought awareness. It brings awareness to audio description in a very fun and creative way, and it kind of creates a film that's, you know, for both sighted and blind and low vision audiences all in one, rather than, like you know, on a regular studio movie, for example, it's like, okay, audio description, you can turn it on, or you can like listen to the track along with the movie, but that's specifically for blind or low vision viewers, and the sighted viewer isn't going to get that experience at all with audio description. You know it serves the sighted viewer and giving them something fun and creative in the way that it that it introduces the concept of audio description, but it also serves the needs of the blind and low vision communities by just incorporating it into the script and into the film already, so that way both communities can fully enjoy it.

Speaker 2 20:54

Yeah, wow, how incredible. Now, what is I kind of want to chat about? So how long did you have to like? So, yeah, shooting and then editing, like what does that look like? Were you trying to have more emphasis on like the shooting time or the editing time, like post things like that? How do you kind of, if someone has not done a challenge before, what would you recommend that they do? Or if they're looking at getting involved in you know the EDFC, you know next year, what does that look like? What should you be prepared for to shoot in five days?

Speaker 1 21:34

Well, I'm sure one of the things that Luke would recommend is not working full time during the week, because the whole time that, like we were doing this film challenge, luke had a full time job that he was working from like 10am till 7pm. So our shoots were, like you know, seven in the morning and then, like you know, 730 at night when he got off of work, and then, you know, 8m till 2 am because luke had to do it all around um doing his full-time job.

Speaker 5 21:53

Good for you, it was pretty exhausting. I I mean, with any film it's like do as much prep as you possibly can, you know, like have your team set up, ready to go, you know, have your equipment together and then figure out the little details when you can. But we definitely tried to prioritize let's let's get the filming done as soon as we can and then do the editing and post, cause the post does take more time. Um, so I think we had, I think we did like two days of filming and three days of post, and it was still exhausting and stressful, but we got it to work.

Speaker 1 22:33

And I think that for a five-day film challenge that's probably the best way to go. If you can get the filming done in the first two days, then you have three days to add in the music, to do any kind of ADR, to do coloration, to do all of that stuff. And I mean um post was happening right up till the very last minute when we were uploading oh yeah, we recorded the audio description itself like hours before the deadline.

Speaker 5 22:57

So I was over at the the guy's uh place he has his own like vo booth um, uh, jonathan, our friend, um, and he was recording it and he was like, okay, yeah, I can get this to you and uh pretty soon. And I'm like, oh yeah, can I just like get it now on a thumb drive because, like, we're submitting this in like an hour or two.

Speaker 1 23:17

So and we were pressed to the deadline, so, like we were even emailing nick and we're like it's uploading right now, because it was like 5, 58 or something that had to be in by like 6 pm.

Speaker 1 23:27

So, yeah, another funny thing about this whole process too is, admittedly, luke and I probably waited longer than we should have to assemble a production team together, and so it was probably like a week before we were supposed to shoot maybe even a little less and we had nothing in place in that realm and I was a producer on this film. So I just started, like you know, like texting and calling everyone I knew to try to find, like you know, all the positions and to try to find the locations and everything. But it was overwhelming and there was a moment where I was like I don't think this is going to happen because Luke is too busy and there just seems to be so many things that are not in place, and so I was actually waiting for Luke to tell me that he didn't have the time to do this and I was totally ready to pull the plug if he had brought it up.

Speaker 5 24:25

And ironically, I was thinking the exact same thing. I was like I don't want to be the one to tap out.

Speaker 3 24:35

But if Lee says hey, I don't think we can do this, then I'm like okay, we're done, you know we're not doing it.

Speaker 2 24:38

So this whole thing was a game of chicken.

Speaker 3 24:39

Yeah, exactly yeah, I think that this is all so great for our listeners to hear and for me even I'm sitting here just soaking it in because there is advice that you gave, things like shoot early because you need time for post. And me as an actor, even though I'm, you know, I'm a little bit more connected to the other side of things at this point. I still had not even thought of that.

Speaker 3 25:04

I was like oh yeah you shoot for five days, it'll be fun no, you don't shoot for five days and also, people will have jobs. People still have to work. Even though this is a film challenge and it was only five days, you were still shooting all night and working all day, but it's still possible to make an award winning film. And that's kind of the way we have to do. Things at first is just, we have to make it work. But it's also possible to make it work.

Speaker 3 25:32

I think a lot of people get discouraged because they they don't think they have time to do something that's going to be any good, and so they let that be the answer, they let that be the no and they take the L on that and they're like oh gosh, I can't be a filmmaker. And they give up and go home. You don't have to do that. You can't be a filmmaker, and they give up and go home. You don't have to do that. You can push through a few days of really rough nights, work your job, be sick and be tired, but you could win. You can still make something really good and that's great.

Speaker 6 25:58

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Speaker 2 26:29

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Speaker 3 26:51

Lee, you were speaking about how you like to go see the movies, and the movies sometimes are hit or miss because of the devices. Is this a device that you are borrowing from the theater with the audio description on it?

Speaker 1 27:06

Correct. So when I go to a movie theater I'll ask them for an audio description device, and it used to be this little like rectangular box with a headset and then they had to program it on the right channel Once the movie starts. Then it would sync up with the digital track or I don't even know how that technology works and then in the headphones you would hear the audio description track along with the movie. And I usually go to AMC theaters because I have the AMC A-list, which is awesome. I love it.

Speaker 3 27:40

AMC's taking over the world.

Speaker 1 27:42

And I'm the customer they don't like, because I actually use my three movies most every week and so I'm getting a lot of value out of it. But then they changed their devices, so now they kind of look like this, like it's on this huge stand, which I don't really know why the stand needs to be there I always actually unscrew it but it's like kind of like a Android device or something. The new devices do seem to work better, because Luke's been with me when it was like it's a question of is it going to work, and there was a 50-50 chance, and half the time or most of the time I used to go in just expecting it not to work, and if it worked it was an added bonus. But now with the new devices, they're a lot more efficient with them.

Speaker 1 28:28

Yeah, it's great, honestly, and I'm really grateful that audio description is available for most films. I mean, when it comes to international markets, that's a little more challenging, and we're still working on getting those films a little more accessible, because a lot of international films don't always have audio description and those are the films that you know have subtitles too. So I can't even like just listen to the dialogue and try to pick up what I can and piece everything together. If it's in, you know a different language yeah, I'm here.

Speaker 3 29:01

I'm here like how do we optimize this? How do we make this easier? Do you think that it is it would be preferable, or would it be more prohibitive, for someone with the mind and the money to create a device that is personal, that you have, that either you can go to the movie theater and you tell them which film you're watching, and they can. They either give you a code or they give you something, a chip or something to upload, and then you know the device fits you, then you know the device works. Or is that more problematic? What do you think?

Speaker 1 29:34

So I think me and my podcast partner Alex we think that a really good solution would be to have like an app that you could, you know, download on your smartphone and then you know when you go to the movie. Like you said, there's a code, or you just check into the movie that you're seeing at, you know the theater you're seeing it at, and this would probably have to be. You know a theater you're seeing it at and this would probably have to be you know a very like theater chain specific thing. So, let's say, like in the AMC app, for example, you know they had a tab that says accessibility and then you check into your movie or whatever, you type in a code and you let them know, like you know what theater you're in or something, and then it would automatically sync that audio description track to the movie. To me, that seems like the most efficient way to make sure that audio description is available and working.

Speaker 3 30:27

That seems very possible too, and then you have your AirPod and you head on in the app. Developers get to work.

Speaker 1 30:35

Exactly exactly. I've pitched that to a few um people, a few of the employees at amc, and you know they think that there's more efficient ways to do things as well.

Speaker 2 30:43

So we just all gotta start lobbying for this, because how?

Speaker 3 30:46

important about accessibility is is what I think the world needs to just start thinking about it, because I think a lot, a big problem is a lot of people just don't even it doesn't cross their minds because it doesn't cross their paths. And if everyone's thinking about it, the problems get solved and the accessibility is a lot easier to find.

Speaker 5 31:08

One thing I will add to that, too, is you know, I am not a disabled person, but I, you know, being friends with Lee for a long time, I've gotten to see, um, his unique perspective on the world, and through, especially, experiencing film for me, um, I think audio description as a filmmaker for me is important because, as a filmmaker, you want your movie to be experienced by as many people as possible, and so it's.

Speaker 5 31:39

It's like if there's a whole group of people that aren't getting to experience your film, like, you're missing out on the opportunity to share something that you're passionate about with them. And um, I think that that, with this project was lee touched on this a little bit earlier, but, like, it was so important to like say, let's see how we can make a film to bring together, uh, everyone together to experience this in the exact same way that, like, I want the sighted viewer and the blind viewer to be able to experience this film as closely, uh, to the same as possible. And, um, and so that that's's definitely, I think, a goal for me as a filmmaker, not that I'm going to make every film called audio description, but just in general, to think that I want my movies to be seen by as many people as can be seen.

Speaker 2 32:33

Absolutely and Fertiz for the documentary let's talk about. So Lee does not know the title of this documentary. Lee does not know the title, and can you tell us the acronym?

Speaker 4 32:45

It's M-L-I-S-C-U, so a friend of mine calls it MILISCU. I love it, it's funny.

Speaker 2 32:54

Like Maleficent. Now let's talk about you as a as a director of this documentary. What is the reasoning behind not allowing Lee to know the title?

Speaker 4 33:05

The reasoning behind him not knowing the title is. I thought if he knew the title because there is some information in there then it would cause him, when we're doing interviews, to kind of skew things a certain way. Then it would cause him, when we're doing interviews, to kind of skew things a certain way. And I want it to be very authentic and especially if you're not a part of the disabled community and more specifically the visually impaired community, I want them to get a firsthand experience as to what are things like for an entertainment professional who has a disability. So I felt it best that we, you know, we keep certain things from Lee.

Speaker 4 33:38

With regards to the documentary Specifically, we've even kept questions. You know I try not to do any pre-interviews unless it's time sensitive, and then I'll say, okay, lee, we're going to talk about this particular subject today. But the less that I feel he knows, the more authentic and more real he can be, and that's what we want to say. That's what I like watching about documentaries, you know, I like seeing the person who's true to their self, because that's going to translate and communicate to the other communities 100%, Lee.

Speaker 3 34:07

how do you feel about? Does that make you nervous, knowing that your response to these questions that you don't know in advance is recorded for posterity?

Speaker 1 34:20

You know it doesn't make me nervous, actually, because, number one, there's always editing, so I'm always like protected by that. And you know, number two, just like being an actor, a director and producer on projects. I know the way that my mind thinks. So if I know what I need to prepare, like my mind's automatically going to go to that. And I mean even, like you know, I'll have conversations with vertice about the behind the scenes stuff and I'm like, oh, do we have this in place? Do we have this in place? And vertice is always like, lee, don't worry about this, just focus on you being you.

Speaker 1 34:54

And I really have to kind of shut off that like director, producer mindset and even, like you know, kind of the little performative, like places that I could be tempted to go when the camera's on. So it's been a very unique and special experience to be able to do a documentary. It definitely took some adjustment, you know, like you know being used to being an actor, and now it's like, okay, I'm not acting, but I am, you know, I'm just being myself on camera and it's like, how do I do that? Even though as an actor, that's what we should be doing anyway, but it's like a little different, because it's like me in the most raw sense. So that's been great, though, to be able to have a voice in that way, and I want it to be as authentic as possible too. So I just told Vertise hit me with anything, surprise me, and you're going to get the most authentic reaction in that way fantastic.

Speaker 2 35:52

Now, we kind of skipped over this and I want, I really want, to touch on it. Before you know, we have to wrap things up. Um, you were talking about, uh, you a few days out from the challenge, or a week out, you know, having to crew up. Let's talk about how you found your collaborators because, um, you know, luke, you are a graduate of USC program. Um, and then leave, been in the industry working, you know like working hard doing three scenes a night at writers uh, writer's stuff.

Speaker 2 36:16

So I just want to talk about how did you crew up, like who was like the first person you called? How did you come together with the crew? Had you worked with them before? Things like that?

Speaker 5 36:24

I. I'm trying to think of who the first people. I guess it was adrian it was adrian that was the first person that we called or that I called yeah, so adrian is the, the actor that plays um lewis. Who's's the weirded out? Co-worker.

Speaker 2 36:39

Yes.

Speaker 5 36:40

And you know, he did such a good job in like such a small bit there, but we actually asked him to act in it. And then, on top of that, he just started like helping out, like oh, let me find this person to help Gaff and do this and that, and we were just like, oh wow, this guy is awesome. So we ended up giving him an associate producer credit because he just put so much work into it. But it was definitely a team effort where we're all looking out to all our networks like trying to do this on no budget. Where can we get a location? Who can do this and that? And I was really shocked how well everything came together and we honestly a lot of us too were working with people we hadn't met before that were just really passionate about what we were doing and the story we were telling.

Speaker 1 37:30

So I'll let Lee add to that.

Speaker 1 37:33

Yeah, I mean, in addition to that, I guess like I'm an extrovert and so I guess the advantage of being an extrovert is being able to create a large network of people from different circles. So I just started blasting out text and blasting out phone calls to people. I'm like, hey, I know that this is really last minute because we're shooting next week, but would you be interested in helping us with this project and kind of explaining what the disability challenge was, what the significance of it was? And you know, just through that, you know, even if people weren't able to help out, they were like let me see if I can find someone for you and they would reach out to other people on our behalf. And I mean, truthfully, we just felt very supported and just very encouraged by the level of support that we were getting from everyone that really wanted to help us out, even if they weren't able to find anyone, the fact that they were willing to do it and that they cared enough about this project. They saw the vision behind the Disability Film Challenge. You know that was very meaningful. The Disability Film Challenge. You know that was very meaningful and a really cool side story.

Speaker 1 38:41

That kind of ties into me going to the movie theater and getting audio description devices is one of the guys. His name is John. He did Boom Mike for us on the really late night shoot on a Thursday night. I actually met him back in December at AMC the Grove and he was just one of those guys that, like, was helping me get an audio description device. He worked at AMC and he was walking me to the theater and then we just became friends after that because we realized that you know, we were both in the acting world and stuff and I'm like let's stay in touch. So then I reached out to him to see if he knew anyone that could help us crew and he was like I really want to be a part of this project. Is there anything I can do? Like I'll do anything at all, and he was just so gung ho to be on board.

Community Impact in Filmmaking

Speaker 1 39:27

But it's like it was so cool though, because it's like you know, it's like those are the kind of like fun little moments. I guess that can happen, you know, even just from going to an AMC theater and meeting an employee and talking to them as they're helping me get to my theater. It was, it was great, but everyone I can't emphasize this enough. Everyone on our crew and in our cast was truly amazing people to work with. They were so humble, they were just so encouraging, so willing to just do what needed to be done, and me and Luke have said this time and time again that, you know, the best film award is shared with everyone involved. It's not just about me and Luke, it's about everyone involved, because had one less sound person been there, one less person been there to do any kind of setup, it's like we would have been further behind and we wouldn't have had time to finish everything we needed to.

Speaker 4 40:19

If I could add one thing and I think the real catalyst to this is Nick Novicki I mean him starting this award show, or starting this challenge, I should say, is really amazing for the community because it's grown. Every year it becomes more and more impactful and every year there are people who are not in the disabled community who are learning about this for the first time and who are saying you know what, maybe I would, I'm going to consider hiring someone in the community. So big shout out to Nick for starting this and to the Easterseals as well.

Speaker 3 40:50

Yeah, I agree, I agree.

Speaker 2 40:52

It's changed our lives, Like that's for sure. We met Nick. I went up to Nick at Holly shorts last year. I used to listen to him on the Nate land podcast and I was like I never come up to anyone, but like I just want to say you're hilarious. And he was like what are you doing here?

Speaker 6 41:06

Like he was very nice, but he was like what are you doing at Holly shorts and I why?

Speaker 2 41:09

are you here? No, he was like what are and be our first interview? Cause we had, like I think, a hundred interviews, 130 interviews going, but we were like, do you want to be the first one? We're just setting up? So he was like yeah, and so I took him up and he talked about the disability film challenge and and that's how we ended up partnering to do over a hundred hours of education with the community this year and it's changed the way we approach filmmaking, it's changed the way we talk about filmmaking, it's changed the way we would crew up, that we would try and tell stories, because not only were we able to teach the community, but we were able to learn a lot as well from the community, not only about how to make our film sets more accessible, but also that we're missing out on telling a lot of stories, like a lot of stories that have not been told, because the way of viewing and seeing the world around you is different. And you know we talk about representation, but, um, there's not enough disability, um, represented in the way that scripts are being written or the way that we are shooting or the way that we are describing it. You know, and and so it has changed the world for us as well and and you know, going into this year and then you know the future years, we're going to be focusing a lot more on that and partnering with Nick for sure. So I love that you mentioned that, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 3 42:20

I also think that it's, um, a cool trick of the trade that we can pass on to our listeners. Um, we, we talk a lot about how important it is to find your community here, because people want to work with people. They like people often rehire the people they know they like to work with. And also it has been mentioned a couple of times on different podcasts that we've been guests on that it is scary to hire cold.

Speaker 3 42:50

It's scary to hire people to work on a crew if you've never met them before or if you don't have a recommendation from someone they know who will speak for them. And that's part of what makes it seem really difficult to get into the industry is, if you haven't worked before, nobody can speak for you. This is such a unique challenge because the community is so special. The community is just just incredible and the way that everyone looks out for each other and the way that people are willing and just so down to work with you and do whatever they need to do to make your story shine, that you can trust that anybody who has worked in, worked on a film in this challenge is going to be someone who's going to be an asset to your set, and I think that's a really cool thing to be able to say that you can just ask someone have you ever worked on a film for the Disability Film Challenge?

Speaker 3 43:48

And if they say yes, you know they'll be an amazing hire a dream hire Five days of grueling work to make a really cool film that no one has said or heard or uh tried to portray before, so I think it's so wonderful part of a community that is focused on accessibility, so they're going to do whatever needs to be done to make it possible for everyone to tell their story yes, so nick is always getting shout outs everywhere because he's so wonderful, but, um, but I am, I'm so happy, I'm gonna take this, I am, I am so yeah, kind of yeah.

Speaker 2 44:20

I'm always like it doesn't matter, because I'm a DP and I'm like sound whatever.

Speaker 2 44:25

Sorry, um, but uh, I, lee, I am exactly like you. I love making friends in like the greatest places that you would never normally make, like a collaborator friend. You know, and I absolutely adore that you kind of brought someone on that was like I would love to be a part of that and I love that you stayed in contact with me and stayed in touch. And you know, I think we always have to remember that like-minded collaborators can come from everywhere and we just have to be open-minded to kind of bringing them a part of our life and our network.

Speaker 2 44:55

Thank you guys so much for being a part of this episode with us. We are so excited to not only plug Lee's podcast and share that link in the bio, but also plug audio description as well as your wonderful documentary coming out M-L-I-S-C-U. Now, before we head out today, can you guys tell us where this film will be screening so that people can check it out, where they can find it? And then as well, if you're looking for where people can donate to funding the documentary or the feature, things like that.

Speaker 5 45:26

Yeah, so as part of part of winning best film, is that we're also going to be put into the Holly Shorts Film Festival, into the Holly Schwartz Film Festival I do not know the dates on any of these, but Holly Schwartz, I believe, heartland and New Filmmakers, la, and then, of course, we're submitting it to you know anywhere that we think is going to be a good fit as well. The festival world is daunting, but it will be out there and hopefully we can share it with a lot more people and you can also watch Audio Description right now on the Disability Film Challenge YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 46:06

I think if you just go to YouTube and you type in Disability Film Challenge Audio Description, you will find it there, because that's how I've accessed it.

Speaker 3 46:13

Yeah, same, you can just watch. Oh my gosh, you can just watch it. Okay, oh my goodness.

Speaker 5 46:19

And uh, you know it's definitely better to watch in the theater you know, so yeah if you can go to a film festival, watch it there and you get to meet the filmmakers.

Speaker 2 46:28

You get to meet leon luke and vertice. Now vertice um. How can we learn more about the documentary or what are next steps? How can we follow along?

Speaker 4 46:35

thank you for asking. Uh, so yes, we are currently shooting. We have not started post-production, so the best way to find out more about the documentary, or if you're interested in working with us, please hit me up on social media. Uh, you can find my information in the chat, I guess with you guys in the description.

Speaker 2 46:53

Can you also give a shout out to what you're um? Where to find you on Instagram?

Speaker 4 46:56

Uh, I would say Facebook. So on Facebook please. So it would be under my name Vertice V-I-R-T-I-C. Emil E-M-I-L Brown, b-r-o-w-n. And again, welcome all.

Speaker 2 47:10

Great Um. Thank you guys so much for joining us and we can't wait to have you back, Probably at Holly shorts, If we end up partnering with them this is a plug for Theo and Daniel, because we're going to have them on the couch soon. Thanks everybody, bye.

Speaker 5 47:22

Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 7 47:24

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