In this episode of "Small Business, Big Moves,". Thomas Bennett is joined by guest Byron Wolfe to explore creative strategies and innovative approaches that have propelled small businesses to new heights. Discover the power of tax credits and tax strategy.
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Small Business Big Moves is a podcast where innovation meets entrepreneurship. Join Tom Bennett as he explores all things business growth! From business funding and business tax credits to conversations with leaders who have grown successful and innovative businesses!
In this episode of "Small Business, Big Moves,". Thomas Bennett is joined by guest Byron Wolfe to explore creative strategies and innovative approaches that have propelled small businesses to new heights. Discover the power of tax credits and tax strategy.
Connect with us on social media:
- Facebook: Thomas Bennett
- Instagram: @Thomas.mbennett
-YouTube:@SmallBusinessMoneyConnector
- LinkedIn: Thomas Bennett
Subscribe to "Small Business, Big Moves" on Your Favorite Podcast Platform for more inspiring episodes on innovation and entrepreneurship.
Small Business Big Moves is a podcast where innovation meets entrepreneurship. Join Tom Bennett as he explores all things business growth! From business funding and business tax credits to conversations with leaders who have grown successful and innovative businesses!
Welcome to small business, big moves, the podcast where innovation meets entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Tom Bennett, and we'll explore all things business growth from business funding and business tax credits to conversations with leaders who have grown successful and innovative brands and businesses. Welcome to the show. My guest today is my partner in the CFO consulting King Byron Wolf. Byron, I'm excited to have you on the show today. If you can introduce yourself. Thanks for having me, Tom. Real fast, Byron Wolf co founder of CFOAF, a full service CPA firm focused and fractional CFO services, chief financial officer services and tax strategy. So we we're not just filing your taxes and charging you a bunch of money. We do tax strategy, which means we're going to find the. deductions you know, the, the tax incentives, all the things, including the tax credits. That are going to minimize your tax liability and allow you to keep more of the money that you make on the fractional CFO side, we show you how to make more money and keep more money by focusing pretty much on profit and not focused on your revenue which is just growth that can run unchecked you know, with expenses against it and you end up working twice as hard to make the same money. We focus specifically on increasing that profitability through your KPIs and your metrics in the company. But yeah, man, I been a fractional CFO for a long time, involved in a number of different companies. So I'm a, I'm the CFO for, I don't know, like 14 companies currently. So, you know, quite a few. But we have a we have a great system in place to do that amazing team amazing partners and a lot of the spaces that i'm in so yeah, you know, they they talk about doing what you love you'll never work a day in your life and I I definitely do what I love I would say 90 percent of the time which I think is pretty high I love it. No, that's huge, right? I mean, it's it's important when you get to like you said not only do what you love to do but I mean you're doing and providing the services that I think just about every business owner out there needs. So doing the right thing and enjoying it. You can't go wrong with that. But yeah, that's exactly what I really wanted to focus in on today, right? A little bit of tax strategy, some of the tax credits that we've been partnering up on. But really wanted to take a step back, bring it all the way back to the beginning, right? Kind of what, what gets you into what you're doing now? Where that turning point was where you decided this is what I this is what I'm passionate about. This is what I'm going to do to change some people in businesses. Yeah, I know. I appreciate that. And I love the way you said that there's a there's an author and I can't remember. It's either Austin Netsley I think it was Austin. Anyways, there's a really good book out. And he, he did a lot of research, all these successful people, you know, when he was on like his twenties, he said, Hey, I want to figure out what makes people successful. And he said, the one thing that was like across the board, everybody spoke with different industries, didn't matter where they're at, you know, just pretty much anybody that he would consider successful. Yeah. They hit a point where it was a big pivot point and they made a decision to go all in, right? So they had to commit like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is where I'm going to be. This is the things I'm going to change. And they went all in and that's how they found success. So I love the way you phrase that. What was the thing you went through that kind of made the decision to do this? And so for me I've always been a really, really horrible employee, right? Like I, I just, I feel like I can figure out how to do it better. Like, you know, I don't like the systems. I gotta fix the system. So, you know, I'm not good at, Hey dude, this, this, this, and this. And then you get a paycheck. I'm like, well, if I do this, this, and this, we're going to be way better. Right. So I, you know, I knew very young probably need to be in business for myself because I was going to drive everybody else crazy. So I've always started, you know, businesses, grew them to a certain point. I've grown some, sold some, grown some, merged them, you know, grown some, turned them automated where they're, they're doing well. You know, so we, we have one business started, I think like 2000, forever ago, 2012 or something, still rocking and rolling, very minimal impact. Why would I sell it right now? Nice, nice paycheck every month. Very mini, minimal involvement of my own. And so I, I've found that systemizing it works great. And then the other thing is I'm really, really good at the accounting and like the tax stuff, you know, as a A CPA. So I have my license as a CPA, I run a CPA firm, so I better have it right. But I, as a CPA, I've learned that like tax strategy is everything. So, you know, we, we started revenue, make a bunch of money, right. But there's always expenses that trickle down. So it's a good bragging point. Like, Oh my God, I've got a hundred million dollars in revenue. Well, if you've got a hundred million dollars in expenses, you know, there ain't nothing left, like that's just a whole lot of work until I very quickly, the expenses matter. Right. And that's, that's kind of where the budget is. You know, that matters. Then you get to profit, which is great. Like, okay, I made this much money. I took home this much money. But when, you know, Uncle Sam comes in and takes 40 percent of it, like, that hurts too. So, you know, I realize that, like, there's multiple steps, and ultimately it's the dollar that, that is left over that is yours, your pocket, you get to keep, you get to utilize, you use that for the fun stuff, you use that to take care of your family. You know, that's really the number that matters, not the revenue. I would argue, not even the profit. It's the amount that's left over, you know, and that's a process like you got to manage your expenses, you got to manage your tax strategy, got to manage those tax credits. And ultimately, the amount that you get to keep. That's way more important. Right. And what I have found is the people that are very smart about managing all that. They have a large leftover balance. And sometimes those guys are considered, you know, very small in comparison to others. There's a, there's a stat that came out recently. It said, Walmart operates like on a two point something percent profit margin, right? That's before taxes. So on a two points, like, I mean, there's Like that's such a small amount now. They're massive. So that two point whatever percentage that's huge for them, right? But still that's such a small margin like you're you know, you're doing billions and billions of dollars And then you got millions left over, you know, like which sounds great Hey millions, like I would love to have millions left over but that's Billions and billions of dollars worth. So for me, I would rather do like a couple of million dollars worth of work to have, you know, a million or a couple of million left over that I get to play with, right? Like a billion just sounds like a lot of work. So, you know, I think you should create the environment where you can get to that. You want to put in the work, you want to have the team, all that stuff. You get to a billion, billions, you know, plural. Like hopefully there's a billion left over, or like hundreds of millions of dollars left over. Not billions and then you got like a million left over, right? That doesn't seem that sexy to me. So that was a big point for me, like, I know I'm good at this, this is where I need to focus. I need to partner with people that are really good in the other spaces so that I can really get, like, in the nitty gritty with the accounting, with the tax, you know, with the, like, hey, keep as much as we can possibly keep. But also, like, I need to know that I'm going to keep the majority of my money, not just work my tail end off to pay everybody other than myself. That was a big pivot moment for me. I love it. I'm glad you shared that because it's true. I mean, right? Like you a lot of people don't realize the tax strategy or the tax planning. Most people don't have someone that's helping their business. And like we talked about, obviously a lot of people listening to this run a smaller, medium sized business or entrepreneurs. Obviously, some of them know what they're doing with the taxes, but a lot of them just kind of look at it as this is another bill or invoice that I get to pay every year or quarterly, however they do it. And it's, yeah, it's sad to see, but there's there's a lot of benefits of doing it the right way and finding how you can make them more appealing for you in the business. Yeah, 100%. You know, and I, I try to break it down as simplistic as I can. You know, if you're, if your CPA is costing you money, it's probably not the right one. Your CPA should be saving you money. You know, like, That strategy, whatever you're paying them, that should be a portion of, of the amount that are saved, you know? And, and so I try to tell everybody, you know, I I'm a big fan of, of using metrics, knowing your numbers, I think that's everything. So when you're looking at something, you want an ROI on it, right? Like if you go buy a Facebook ad or a Google ad or whatever, right? Like. You don't want to put a dollar in and get a dollar back. You know, you want to put a dollar in, you want to get 10 back, you know, or 20, whatever, right? So you know your profit helps you to kind of figure that out, but you want some kind of return. So for me, you know, I see people that are like, yeah, but my, my CPA, you know, they're just so affordable, you know, they only charge me 1, 500 to a business return, blah, blah. Okay, yeah, that seems cheap. Like, what are you getting out of it? Oh, you know, well you know, I'm paying X dollars. Like, oh my God. Like, what, what, what do you make? Like, what's your effective tax rate? Oh, you know, it's 27%. Good Lord. You know, like, you know, and so I'm like, what, what's your, what's your tax strategy? Like, what are you taking advantage of? You know, and you can look at it and you very quickly see, this is data entry stuff, right? Like, I'm not trying to pick on the industry. But like we're not data entry people like a cpa like if you love what you do I'm, not saying it's a game. But like this is a this is a complex puzzle to solve So I prefer or I respect the like charging what you're worth right and finding the justification And doing that if you're going to charge somebody, you know And 1, 500 is crazy low, right? Like ours started at like 10K. But if I'm going to charge somebody 10K for tax strategy prep filing for their business themselves, all that stuff, I'm looking to really capitalize on that. I, I want to see at least 40, 000 benefit. You know, true dollars back to that client, you know, and I think that we get into an environment where it's it's something we hate And so we just we just it's just part of business like, you know, it's just it taxes It's just part of it you know, it's just something we got to do and so we don't look at all the things that are available and you and I Both know like there's a ton of credit We you know, the ertc was good for a lot of people the pvp was good kept a lot of people in business allowed them to keep their doors open Same thing. Now we're, you know, there's a big push, the R& D credit, which you have been working on a lot lately. You know, these are the things you have to do and like COVID was bad. I'm not going to say there's anything good that came out of it. It was a bad experience. I feel bad for everybody who was affected by it. You know, it's a bad situation, but it forced us to be innovative because it really shut down a lot of things that we've seen in the, in the world of business and in life and everything else. And so, you know, the people that came through it more successful were the ones that innovated, you know, you had to find a new way of doing things. If you're a brick and mortar. And now people can't come into your brick and mortar, like, what do you do, right? Like, you can't just keep rolling business is business and just suffer through, right? You're not going to be successful. So you had to pivot. You had to find a new way to do something, right? And that's, that's 100 percent what the research and development tax credit was for. It's looking for the things that you need to do differently to set your business up for success. And so, like, and that, and that was created, this isn't a loophole, this isn't something we're taking advantage of, this was created by the IRS in 1984 or something, that they said, hey, if you're going to invest in these things, and you're going to make your industry better you're going to do things that are going to, to help the world in general, like, we want to give you a tax credit for that, right, like, you know, they're going to give you these, these write offs that are affected by it, and so we're taking advantage Of what was created intentionally for exactly what we're doing, right? We're following exactly what the IRS wants you to do and people say, you know, Oh, well, you know that, that, you know, all these people are just getting away with not paying taxes. You know, they're just spawning these loopholes and that wasn't created for that. This is not like. You know, trying to like cheat the system, right? Like it was created specifically for that. These tax credits are for that. So taking advantage of something that was specifically written to help everybody else, help your industry, help industries outside of yourself, you know, that's the whole point. So like, why would you not do that? You know, if, if you knew, Hey, if I go do this, I make the world a better place. Right. And like, it's not really going to cost you anything, or what it does cost you is, is recoverable. Like, wouldn't you do that? You know, like, you know, if, if I go out here and I, I do some, I go plant a bunch of trees, right, that are going to help the environment. The government says, hey, for every tree you plant we're going to give you a hundred bucks and I know and I can plant this tree takes me 20 minutes so I can knock out three trees, make 300 an hour, you know, planting these trees like, you know, if you don't have a job or you're, you know, your job is paying a hundred bucks an hour, that's a great rate. I can go make 300 bucks, plant trees, help the environment. Why would you not do that? You know, so to me, the tax credits are exactly that, like, let's take advantage of what it is. Use those to grow your business, you know, let's, let's take that innovation that was created in this bad situation. COVID was bad, right? But let's bring something really good out of it. And, and you can do that by taking advantage of these tax credits. And there's a ton of them out there, you know, R& D is a great one. There's carbon credits. You know, we've got the solar tax credits. There's, there's all these things that are available that we can utilize to grow our business and truly make the industry better. And, and bring up the people around us, right? Like, you know, I think competition is a weird word because when we think about competition, it's like, I gotta, I gotta win. And for me to win everybody else has to lose. And that's just not true, right? Like competition can be, Hey, let's. Let's all get better, right? Let's all like do better. Let's have this good fresh healthy competition So that we all scale up. We're all making more money We're all like creating a better environment for the people that we work with and that you know work for us Like let's all get better That's the good competition. And that, like, the IRS has said, Hey, here's some, here's some breadcrumbs to get there. Here's some incentives to make this happen. So, like, why would you not take advantage of it? I mean, it just doesn't make sense so that you wouldn't. You know, it's there for a reason. Like, level the playing field, guys. Like, get after it. You know, anyways, that's just my opinion. 100%. you said it best, right? We helped a lot of people. Get the employee retention credit, right? That was obviously being impacted by the pandemic. You were able to recoup some of those losses essentially. Right now with this, like you said, it almost ties in together because you took those losses, every business struggled, right? I mean, there were some businesses that may have grown in revenue, but at the end of the day, they all had to adapt or do something. So like you said, this R and D credit, there's a. Good amount of businesses out there that were able to take the pandemic adapt and become an innovative company where before they were just doing the same thing year over year and I think like you said, pandemic was it was obviously a negative thing that happened, but a lot of businesses were able to take that. Turn it into a positive thing and get to a level that they may have never seen before. Now they're able to recoup some of that. Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, and, I don't, you know, again, I don't remember the guy who said it, but he said, you know, hard times, hard times make strong men, you know, and I think that that's a reality, not just in, in people, but also in businesses, right? Like, You know, we, when things are tough, when it's hard to just go about business on a regular basis, you know, things are thrown at you that you have to respond to and you have to be proactive in finding the solutions. I think the ones that come out of that successful are much, much stronger. And I think the industry as a whole is much stronger. At the end of that versus just kind of allowing everybody to just kind of frolic around and make a little bit of money. Right. And like, Hey, we're all happy. We're, you know, things are fine. I just, I don't think that that's a reality, right? Like we need to constantly be improving, constantly growing and, and those hard times as bad as they are, like. They force you to, to do that, you know, or you, or you don't and you end up out, right, you know, and that's, that's not bad either, right? Like maybe there's businesses that don't need to be there. You know, maybe there's businesses or people that don't need to be in business. You know, I, I tell people all the time, you know, when they start a business and they're like, you know, well, You know, I'm gonna start this business. If it doesn't work out, you know, I'll go back to my W 2. Or like, if it doesn't work out, you know, I'm done. I'll never do another Like, don't even start. The reality is, is like, almost every successful small business owner is gonna be able to tell you way more failure stories than they can tell you success stories. So if you're going to get into small business, like you're going to have slip ups, you're going to have failures, your whole entire business may collapse and just be a, you know, a stinky big old failure, you know, but then like get back at it, right? Like, pick yourself up, go after the next thing. You're going to learn so much from those failures. But the next time it becomes easier and maybe you fail again, right? But like, you're gonna, you're gonna learn from those failures and like, if you just keep repeating it, you're gonna find it. You know, success always comes after the most recent failure. You know, that's just a reality. You are gonna fail until you succeed. You know, and that's like, but, but use everything to your advantage. Use the credits, right? Use the people that are, that are good at something because you're good at this. You know, if you're bad at numbers, Get somebody that's good at numbers, right? If you're bad at marketing, partner with or hire somebody that's good at marketing. You know, if you're really bad at sales, there's amazing sales people out there. Hire the people, right? Or bring them in. Make partners. Do whatever you gotta do to find the success. Because the reality is, and again, I don't remember who said this, but he said, you know it was another business book and he said, realistically, you can do two things in your business, right? If you're looking at the hats, the CEO, COO, CFO, CSO, you know, CMO, CIO, you know, like your operations, financial, sales, marketing, you know information systems, IT, whatever, right? All the things that are in your business. Realistically, you can do two of those, right? So that means somebody else has to do the rest. So thinking you're going to get into business and do everything like, you know, that's not realistic. There is zero businesses out there that have one person doing everything, like, you know, not successful ones, you know, and, and definitely not even mid size. Like that's, that's maybe really small businesses but even small businesses that do that learn, I got to bring in the people. Like, I got to bring in the people to make this happen. So if you're not familiar with something, like, bring in the person that can do it. And the beauty of, like, say somebody comes to you, Tom, and they should, Hey, hey, Tom, this is what I'm dealing with, right? Like, just, they can just talk to you and tell you, this is what I need. These are the struggles that I'm having, right? And maybe you can't solve all their problems. But I bet you can solve a lot of them, right? Because you say, hey, look. You're in a financial crunch. Your business is profitable, but your cash flow is horrible, right? You need a short term loan, or you need some kind of financing that allows you to go to the next level. And a lot of businesses that are super successful, they're, they're, they're so successful they outpace their cash flow. So a business that's absolutely crushing it, crazy profitable, Like their cashflow can't keep up. And so they look like they're doing amazing. And then all of a sudden they just fall off the side because the cashflow is not there. Right. But if they're proactively thinking about that and they come to you and they say, Hey, Tom, man, like we're crazy profitable, but like, I got no money in the bank. You know, I got payroll next month that I don't know that I can make it. But we got a 40 percent profit margin, like what's going on, right? Well, that's cash flow, right? You know, so having that conversation with you or, hey, Tom, man, like, you know, I spent all this money on taxes, like, gonna be rough this year. You know, we've done all these things that, that, you know, I feel like would qualify for credits. Like, what does that look? Don't figure them out. Go to somebody like, like you and say, Hey, Todd, this is what I'm dealing with. How can you help me? Or multiple people. Hey, this is what I'm dealing with. How can you help me? You know? And I think if people do that and they're, they're willing to reach out and like ask for help and talk to people that are in different areas or, or have, you know, different skills, you know, that's when you're going to truly find success, right? Not when you try to do it all on your own, but when you reach out to the people and say, Hey, I need help here. Like I'm crushing it here. This area not so great like reach out to the people are willing to help you like it's amazing I don't think I've ever been told. Yeah, man, I ain't got no time for you. Like I've talked to people that are way, way above me. I had a phone call with a guy a couple of days ago. He is, he's in the middle of a billion dollar, billion with a B buyout of his business. And we spent about 30, about 30, 40 minutes on the phone. Just, just talking about what that looks like for him. And like his, his struggles with employees. This is a guy that's getting ready to sell his business for over a billion dollars. His struggle with employees, you know, like even billion dollar companies have issues, right? Like just because you hit a certain point doesn't make that everything's perfect, right? Like billion with a B still is probably the same struggles that a lot of business owners have. At a million less than a million, right? We all have kind of the same struggles reach out to people You know, that's that's where you're going to have the most help. At least a month huge Yeah, and I I know you you touched on it too and I want to go back to that because it's one of my One of my favorite things to ask business owners and entrepreneurs, but I know you touched on it We all fail, right? It's a, it's a part of what we do. We know that going into it, but we don't go into it saying, Oh, I know this is going to fail. If anything, I go back to my other job. We don't think like that, but I know there's plenty of people that do. But like you see, right, we see all the wins and success on Facebook, Instagram, social media, anything that you went through, like some failures or setbacks. I know you've you've been doing, doing this for a while. So what what jumps out at you there along the way? Oh, man. Yeah, that's, that's a that's a much longer podcast, but I'll, I'll, I'll touch on one and I've, I've had my share of them and, and I would argue well, I wouldn't even argue that it's, I'll say that I'm, I'm, I'm a pretty successful guy. We have, you know, multiple, multiple million dollar businesses that I'm, I'm a partner in or, or have a full ownership in like. I do well. You know, that's I'm 46 years old. So that income at 18 years old, right? Like, you know, there was a process to get there a lot of failures to get to where we're at. But but one of the ones that that was a big mind shift for me that ended up later on being kind of a mind shift back. Business that I had a partner in went into a business, 50, 50 partners, started this small bartending school. And so I had a 50, 50 partner and started off really well. We were doing well, making good money, great spot. And he. And he would tell you a completely different story. So I, I, like, I'm not even mentioning the guy. Cause if he was doing it, he was going to be like, well, Byron did. Yeah. So, you know, we, we, we just said different paths. So he decided, Hey, I'm, I'm going to be, I'm going to be in the club. I'm going to be in the bars. I'm going to, this is how I'm going to contribute to the business because. We're teaching bartenders to be bartenders. We need to make these connections. So to me, that was, Hey, I'm going to go party. Right. And then, and then you can do all the, all the work dogs in here. So, you know, that just didn't work for me. I'm like, you know, well, no, man, we gotta, we gotta teach. We gotta do business. Like we gotta do all these things, you know, that are. That are business related. Like, so you're, you're partying and I'm doing work and he's, you know, I'm doing marketing. I'm lining up all the people. I don't get that. Right. I see his side now, but it said to me, partners don't work. Right. And so I very quickly was like, partnerships don't work. I'm never going to partner with them. This is horrible. I hate this idea. Like nobody's going to ever work as hard as me. So that was a big mind shift. I had that for a while. And so I tried to do everything on my own and it's not scalable, right? So the the I I had a business we scaled very quickly to a million We were, you know pushing the three million did it, you know a couple years in a row three million couldn't break past it but I was trying to do everything on my own right and and I was I was very blessed very lucky to meet my my current, wife and brought her into the business It was somebody that I I trusted implicitly And she took over things that I was horrible at, you know, that I was trying to muddle through and we like shot past it. You know, we got an amazing offer to sell that business. We had already started something else kind of on the side. It was just game changer. And so it completely changed my idea of what a partnership looks like. Now, I will say this. I go into partnerships very clear. I do way more work on the front end. Like, hey, I need you to do this. You know, I'm going to do this. Are we all in agreement? Does this work? I go overboard. In the on the front part to make sure everything's outlined as much as you possibly can Because it doesn't really matter how much you get along things are going to come up and so that piece of like hey They're my friend or like we get along we think the same all these excuses to not set a partnership up, correct? Those are great Once the partnership is set up correctly, right? But if you don't set it up correctly, there's going to be major hurdles at a later point. But, you know, I went from like, hey, let's do this partnership to these are never going to work. This is the stupidest concept on the planet. I'll never have a partner again to, I love partners now, right? Because they do the stuff I don't like. Like operations, yep, here you go. Marketing, go ahead. You know, sales, not my place. Go ahead, you know, you got it. You know, and so now I get to focus. On the area that I'm, I'm honestly the best at when that's, that's the accounting, creating the KPIs, doing the metrics, watching the numbers, right? Like taking care of like keeping as much money as we possibly can keep. And like finding the places to put it so that we have that investment so that we're not dealing with cashflow issues. You know, that's the stuff I'm really good at. Like you want me to do marketing, like, okay, I'm going to muddle through it, but I am definitely not the best person. Like. I don't even like it. So why would I want to do it? So find the people that you can partner with hire the people if you can't partner with them, you know The partnerships can be very good and we're just talking about one one small failure. That was a big turnaround for me but i've got a million stories I can tell you a bazillion you know failure stories to get to where I am today, you know, but it's it's a step back you learn from it you move on the best lessons are are honestly our failures, you know, if you If you can have a failure, learn from it, move through it, go to the next level, you know, it's going to be a much better lesson than success. Success very rarely teaches as much of anything. You know so I would say or embrace your failures for sure. Definitely. No, and I get to give you I get to give you credit for that too. Right. I know obviously you and I partnered together. It's been a pretty seamless partnership. Love partnering up with you guys. I know I'm connected with a lot of people in the groups that we run in that have been able to build partnerships with you. Right. I've seen I've seen firsthand, obviously how. You and your wife have built that partnership and where you guys are at. So it's just exciting to see. And I don't think people realize truly how powerful partnerships are. So it's a, that's a huge part of it. So I'm glad you shared that story there. And I, I know we threw a lot at them today, right? I know I know you and I could talk for days and just just have you give value to everyone, but anything that we might've left out or that you wanted to cover, leave the listeners with today. I mean, biggest thing is if you're listening, you haven't reached out to Tom to like explore what he can do for you and do that. Right. Like I want to emphasize it. I know I already said it, but like reach out to the people that are in your circle to see how they can help you. And I know Tom can help you. I've seen Tom help a number of people with loans, with credits, everything else. So just reach out to him and say, Hey man, like. I don't know that this is going to work. I don't know that we can do anything together But I just want to tell you my problems and see if you have a solution for me so I you know, I would say not just with tom but with everybody in your life reach out to multiple people You know, hey, this is what i'm dealing with. How can you help? You know and be ready to do that back right like don't always be reaching out for people to help you like be willing to take that call Because if you're really amazing at marketing like I might be the guy that needs that You know, and I might reach out to you and say, Hey, man, I hate market. You seem to be really good at it. Like, what can we do together? You know, so always be willing to take the call. Always be willing to help. If you're always willing to like lean into and help other people people are going to see that and they're going to gravitate towards you. And they're going to be way more willing to help you with whatever's going on with yourself. So I'd say to all your listeners, just like do that, you know, be willing to give but also be willing to reach out and, and ask for help as well. Ciao. Yeah, no, I love it. And that's going to be a wrap on this episode of Small Business Big Moves. If you enjoyed this episode or know anyone that would get value out of it, what we do is ask that you share that with them. And the more people that listen to it, obviously the more people that can get this in front of. And in the meantime, find me all over social media at Thomas Bennett, and we look forward to seeing you all on the next episode.