Your Work Friends

New Week, New Headlines: The Hidden Costs of Layoffs and Building Trust for AI Adoption. Also, the CHRO at Spotify is a Bada**.

• Francesca Ranieri • Season 1 • Episode 43

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In this episode of Your Work Friends, Francesca and Mel dive into the long-term impacts of corporate layoffs and the crucial role of trust in AI adoption. They discuss recent research revealing how layoffs can damage employee morale, engagement, and company recovery for up to 24 months. 

We also explore Fortune's findings on how top European companies are building trust to facilitate AI integration, highlighting the importance of fair compensation, talent mobility, and transparent communication. 

With real-world examples from Spotify, Stellantis, and Salesforce, this episode offers valuable insights for both employees and leaders navigating today's rapidly changing workplace landscape. 

Tune in for a mix of expert analysis, practical advice, ah-has and ha-has as Francesca and Mel break down these critical workplace trends.

We referenced: 

Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.

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Mel:

Company recovery time post layoff is now 18 to 24 months. It used to be six to 12 months, 18 to 24 months. That's only if you hire new employees to backfill those essential roles, because the people who are staying, the magic's gone. How was your weekend?

Francesca:

Good, my mother-in-law's here and she's lovely, and so we've been going around doing fall things, farm things.

Mel:

Oh yeah, what kind of farm things.

Francesca:

We went to a place called Topaz Farms, which is in a place called Savvy Island, like right outside of Portland. This place is just perfectly designed for people that live in Portland but want a farm experience that feels authentic and also sells things like $12 Frose. You know I'm a big fan Someone in love with a massive pot-bellied pig that I secretly want to take every time I go there. Anything fun happen for you this weekend.

Mel:

Yeah, For folks who don't know, I'm a huge New Kids on the Block fan still, and I met up with a friend who I met on the cruise a few years ago and we went to see Drag the Musical Wait can.

Francesca:

I just stop your story right now. Yeah, just real quick. You said the cruise as in. Everybody's gonna know what said cruise is. Can you explain on?

Mel:

the new kids on the block cruise years ago. Which was amazing was a delayed 40th birthday joint 40th birthday celebration that got shut down from covid in 2020. So it was a do-over and it was such a fun experience. Highly recommend it for folks who just want to dance party for four days straight. So, yeah, we went to drag the musical Joey McIntyre's in it. So that's the new kids connection. We were like, oh, let's go see the show and, bonus, we get to see him. So it was just phenomenal. Highly recommend it for anyone looking for something really fun.

Francesca:

If you love broadway, go check out this show yeah, I imagine that's got to be just a fun show joyful and so uplifting and such a positive story and just such goodness throughout.

Mel:

I don't think I stopped cheesing from start to finish. It's just that entertaining, so go see it, go see it all right, good, and it's in new york city. It's off, like off broadway or on broadway yes, new world stage, amazing, amazing cast and crew and the whole thing was just fun. So, if you're in the area.

Francesca:

Check it out. Portland doesn't have that much of a theater scene. I shouldn't say that before I get a ton of hate. I'm not familiar with the Portland.

Mel:

There's a difference.

Francesca:

Jeff's mom loves theater and so. Jeff took her to Sweeney Todd.

Mel:

Oh yeah, I love Sweeney Todd. Do you really it's so dark?

Francesca:

Yeah, my sister is into musical theater, so I grew up going to a bunch of theater. I hate to tell you this. I hate going to musicals and plays. I feel like you would like the musical I went to, though I do like some musicals, like I loved. Hair Rent was okay. We went to Cats on Broadway when I was in high school. I fell asleep in the theater.

Mel:

I just can't get over. You just said rents Okay.

Francesca:

Rent.

Mel:

I don't know what's wrong with you Like.

Francesca:

Miss Saigon. Les Mis is so fucking long, I'm just like I'm going to wrap this up.

Mel:

Yeah, this is long. You know what was really really fun? Say it Legally Blonde.

Francesca:

See I Legally Blonde was awesome. I think I would get into that Book of Mormon, one of my favorites.

Mel:

I think I like things that are funny or just really well done, I don't know when you come to New York, we'll have to go back, because I will 100% go back to this show 80 times.

Francesca:

Yes, the way you explain it, that I would go to, I can't do the melodramatic shit. I'm sorry I'm surrounded by people who melodramatic shit. I'm sorry, I know I and I'm surrounded by people who love musicals and I'm just like enjoy. Back with new week, new headlines. Mel, I have no idea what you're talking about. We're surprising each other. So what are you talking about today?

Mel:

Oh, I hate to even start with this one because I feel like now it's just an oldie, that's an oldie and it keeps coming back up. Hbr just did a research article talking about the long-term costs of layoffs and I also read an article in HR Executive also talking about the dangers of the long-term costs of layoffs for business and HR professionals.

Francesca:

I'm going to talk about that. I'm very curious. I'm very curious. I'm very curious. Fortune Magazine came out with an article this week. At 100 best companies in Europe, high levels of trust set the stage for AI, and they interviewed over 26,000 people and figured out that there's a couple things that really set the groundwork for AI. If you have them, fantastic. If you don't, no bueno. So I want to talk about that, and I also have two F yes stories that dropped that. I want to jam about F yeah All right, let's do it.

Mel:

Let's start with the F yeah. We need some good F yeah news.

Francesca:

Okay, Now we like to get our news sources from a variety of different places. Edm tunes that's where I'm getting this from, but I loved it. Our employees are not children. A direct quote from the CHRO of Spotify that will keep remote working.

Mel:

Hey, I love to hear that. I read an article this week about how CEOs are saying remote work will be gone in three years. Yeah, so nice to hear that there's some sane companies out there.

Francesca:

So the CHRO for Spotify, katrina Berg, just holding the line over there at Spotify. Totally love it. The quote in the article is you can't spend a lot of time hiring grownups and then treat them like children, she argued. And I just love to see this because all around Spotify people are saying no, come back to the office. People are doing selective data around. Oh, you're more productive in the office, even though the majorities of studies are saying not necessarily or no, not at all. Love that they're holding the line here.

Mel:

Yeah, I do too, I will tell you. I'm not trying to shame necessarily, but I recently watched a video from Workday about their flexible work policy and I think a good example of someone overcomplicating. They call it the work from almost anywhere.

Francesca:

Okay, what I don't know when you're explaining, you're losing. I don't even know what the hell you mean by that.

Mel:

So that headline is what caught my attention. I was like what does that mean? Because right away, as an employee, I would be like what does that mean? So now I need to look up what is this? That's already complicating things, and when I listened to the program, it is essentially a response to RTO and them saying their employees who had flex work during COVID now are being required to come into the office at least 50% of the time because it builds collaboration and community, but so does virtual work when you do it appropriately.

Mel:

So that's whatever bullshit thing, just to call it what it is, it's selective, it's selective, yeah, totally selective.

Mel:

That's one of their core values. So addressing the needs of the businesses, of meeting those core values and other employees feedback because they post their employees weekly was that they want more flexibility, no kidding. So now there's this program, but this isn't a perfect example of overcomplicating things, so kudos to you, spotify. What they did is they created an internal app and they call it this work from almost anywhere program, where you have 30 days over the year that you can use any way you'd like to work, either from home or another location. But now they've created an app to monitor that and you have to put in a formal request for these 30 days throughout the year and how you use them for your flex time. Instead of just trusting your employees. We'll use that. There's now a formal product in place. They created an app and I just kept thinking, listening to this like this is not the amazing program you think it is. And how many hours have been wasted on overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be complicated?

Francesca:

No, it doesn't need to be complicated. You either trust your employees or you don't. People are either producing what they need to produce or they're not, and it's literally that simple. It's literally that simple.

Mel:

And if you're going to give the 30 days, why do you need to say almost anywhere? Then it means they can work from anywhere. Yeah, and you trust they're going to get the job done. Spotify, kudos to you.

Francesca:

All right, so there's Spotify my other ones. You probably saw this floating around LinkedIn, but just wanted to call it out because I appreciate the sense of humor. Xftx CEO's crazy LinkedIn update starting new job as prisoner in jail Did you see this? Yeah, so Economic Times, we'll post this on our show notes. Ryan Salameh, who is an FTX executive, is starting his prison sentence and decided to update his LinkedIn profile and I just thought that was the funniest, freaking thing on the face of the planet.

Mel:

I was like do you create a new banner? That's like on hold in prison.

Francesca:

He put his position as inmate at FCI Cumberland and I'm just here for it, I'm totally here for it, like it's. At least you have a sense of humor. Those are my two F. Yeah, I get those are really so funny. Yes, yes, so have to have a sense of humor. I'm curious these long-term impacts of layoffs.

Mel:

I'm surprised I have all my shocked faces lately. I am shocked. The headline is I'm not going to really mention anything brand new that we haven't already discussed on this podcast for the past year now. We've called out these things since last November and Now more of the research is catching up to essentially confirm everything that we've talked about.

Francesca:

So we're like oracles.

Mel:

We're like oracles A nice friendly reminder for folks who may have not heard earlier episodes of your Work Friends. Hbr came out with an article this past week called the Long-Term Costs of Layoffs. It's a research article put out by Didier Elzinga and Amy Lavoie and it was essentially highlighting the longer term implications of layoffs and considerations that business leaders need to take into account and HR leaders Some of the key things. Right, you and I. We've seen sweeping layoff news. We get news alerts in our email. We get listener alerts about layoffs that are happening almost daily.

Mel:

I would say, in the past week alone, we saw Amazon cutting the 14,000 jobs that you covered just last week. Boeing is going to lay off 10% of its workforce, about 17,000 jobs. Intel is planning to cut 15,000 jobs, pwc is doing layoffs, cvs, bayer, johnson, johnson, and the list goes on and on. By the way, I found something pretty cool during my research there's a new warn tracker report out there.

Francesca:

Skuza, skuza. What do you mean? What?

Mel:

Yeah, so you know how we talked about how most states have a warn report. It's not required by every state, but a lot of states have a warn report which, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's essentially they require employers to submit a warn report, which, for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's essentially they require employers to submit a warn report, essentially notifying that layoffs are going to occur and where, and all of that. So there's a new warn report, tracker report that consolidates every report from every state into one database.

Francesca:

Which is yeah, because if you're working for a big company and they're in multiple States, then you'll be, you don't have to go to multiple States site, you can just see it in one place, oh, and it pulls it up for you, so I'm going to link to that.

Mel:

Going to that after this bookmark that site friends and we just covered last week, when we discussed the move to remove managers and flattened orgs, the self-management approach and long-term implications of that. With the short-term gains on savings, but again there's huge long-term losses on having to correct these deep cuts. So this article discussed how the industry being hardest hit right now is tech. We know this. Noting 100,000 rules have been cut in 2024 so far, and HBR studied 146 companies that went through layoffs between March of 2020 and November of 2022. And what they looked at were employee engagement surveys before and after layoffs, and they also leveraged data that they pulled from the layoffs FYI, which you know is the master list of all layoffs happening.

Mel:

The research shows that while layoffs do achieve those short-term gains for the business things like some short-term financial benefits we talk about this often, the right size burn to ensure continued economic stability, for example some of those benefits happen right, but the cost of these decisions they found include long-term impacts like loss of employee morale, engagement and loyalty, and they noted that on average, after layoffs, company confidence drops by 16.9%, belief in career opportunities drop by 12.1% and confidence in leadership drops by 10.5%. That's the average of what happens and those are for folks like employee engagement. Those are like three key determining factors on what's going to happen in terms of turnover, attrition rates, retention problems. Those are big signals that are like you're going to have problems.

Francesca:

Yeah, and those are significant drops. Those are drops that you'd be like whoa, there's something in this stew here that ain't good. Oh yeah, yeah, huge. Not surprising, though. After layoffs you're just like everyone's flipping out. If you don't have a good controlled narrative, if you don't have leaders that are really guiding people through, that, honestly, a lot of times it becomes like Lord of the Flies. I'm not kidding 100%.

Mel:

They also learned, which I thought was interesting having high employee engagement numbers before layoffs won't protect a company from long-term negative impacts of doing the actual layoffs. They even note that the higher your employee engagement is to start, the more likely it is to fall off after layoffs occur. They saw the largest decline in employee engagement with companies who were scoring in the top 10% prior to the layoffs taking place.

Francesca:

So I can see that though, because here's the deal If you're doing all the really good stuff and people believe, oh, it's an amazing place to work.

Mel:

We have all these perks.

Francesca:

Potentially. You're doing well, so you're getting bonused out. People are investing in all of your development, et cetera, and they haven't had rounds of layoffs in a very long time. You start believing that your company is the shit, and then you realize it is not yeah, it's a huge Ooh.

Mel:

Yeah, I get it.

Francesca:

It's a fall from grace right.

Mel:

Okay, yep, and we covered this in the pod before a couple months ago. Actually, what they're finding and it's all their research is reiterating earlier stuff we've talked about. Company recovery time. Post layoff is now 18 to 24 months. It used to be a six to 12 months. 18 to 24 months. That's only if you hire new employees to backfill those essential roles, because the people who are saying the magic's gone.

Francesca:

Yeah, we calculated this last week because last week we talked about flattening of organizations, which is just pulling manager levels out. So if you had a manager to a senior manager, to a director, and you said no more senior managers, we're just doing manager to director, right, that's. That's what's happening in these orgs For instance, amazon cutting 14,000 manager levels what happens is when we pulled the data, like when you look at the 90s we had talked about this, had a suspicion and then actually just pulled the data. In the 90s, the average amount of direct reports a manager would have or a leader would have would be around one to four. One to four and we know that you never want more than seven for great coaching, great mentoring to have, and you know what it is now. The average right now is it's one to eight, sometimes one to 12. When you flatten out and if you look at everything else that's been on the plate, we're asking people to manage more people and do more. Nothing's come off of anybody's plate.

Mel:

Nothing. I was just trying to dive into one of the orgs who recently conducted these layoffs within the last year to see if anyone's getting some of that longer term impact. And, lucky for me, there was an article published in HR Executive from Peter Capelli. He's a talent management columnist for HRE. He's also the director of the Center for HR at the Wharton School of Business, the University of Pennsylvania. His article is called Cutting Too Much when HR Needs to Pump the Brakes on Layoffs. This felt like more of a call to action from HR to have courage, which reminded me of our conversation with Mike Ohata about the call to courage with leaders and decision-making. So in the article he's highlighting the company Stellantis. Have you heard of Stellantis?

Francesca:

Oh, stellantis, they make a Jeep right and Chrysler. They're actually one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world.

Mel:

Yeah, they're the holding company for Fiat Chrysler, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, and they were once the largest auto manufacturer in the world.

Francesca:

But not anymore. Who's it? Gm? Who is the largest you know? Does it? I don't know, it doesn't matter, sorry.

Mel:

It doesn't matter, but now I need to know. Someone look that up and tell us my trivia is wrong. Anyway, sorry, go ahead, don't take me to trivia night. I suck, all right. What's happened recently? Their share prices have fallen by 50% since March. They're bleeding executives, a lot of executives have left. He notes in the article that industry analysts looking into why, have called out that the CEO has made Stellantis quote more efficient than competitive, calling out the fact that Stellantis is employed by investment companies who are pushing relentlessly to cut costs. And three of the big issues were they're fighting suppliers on contracts, they're fighting trade unions representing employees. So already bad for your brand.

Mel:

Reuters reported last week that Stellantis filed new lawsuits against the United Auto Workers Union, for example, just I think on October 7th. But they've also staged round after round of layoffs to get leaner, to cut costs and they're relying on layoffs to do it. And one article an employee noted that they feel like they make the vehicles but they can't even afford them and they called out a specific perk that was received by employees where they could lease cars through the org as a perk as being an employee. But for workers who got a lease through that program that then lost their jobs through these layoffs. They received a letter telling them they needed to send the vehicle back. So employee sentiment that's just one example of something that's occurred through that layoff. Employee sentiment is now that they don't care about them, and just the business bottom line. But Stellantis is a lesson right.

Mel:

What Peter is saying in this article is hey, other businesses who are going through layoffs, lessons learned here. The outcome Stellantis has cars that people don't want. They don't have the employees that work on the innovation. They have had a huge hit to employee engagement and morale and they've cut so much that it has damaged the company's ability to succeed. Keep cutting until things stop working. But it's not irrational if cutting is your ultimate goal.

Mel:

And what he highlighted and what you touched on last week was Jack Welch and GE. What was the workout model? Where essentially they just took staff out and left remaining staff to figure it out, which led to a whole other list of business issues and challenges which we just talked about what it means to pull out all these employees. So the big takeaway here, in line with HBR research, was rebuilding is never as fast as cutting. And Stellantis, they're now stuck with these cars they can't sell, and Peter noted it's going to take them years to innovate, to even get to those better cars, because they don't have the staff to do it, they don't have the talent to do it and it's going to even take longer to repair the damage that's now been done to their overall brand.

Francesca:

That's a huge hit. It's a huge hit. And I think the thing, the choice points on that and not that I know Solanta is that well, but like you think about, there's always choice points on the board. Right, you can cut people, you can cut products. For instance, is Fiat really what you really want to be doing right now? Do you need 55 different types of Jeeps? Maserati really Are we really doing this? Is Alfa Romeo really working in the US? Maybe not. For me, it always begs these choice points around. There's always this pull for efficiency, and especially when I freaking hate this guy. But when Elon Musk walked into Twitter and cut everybody and anybody and quote unquote supposedly proved that you could run the organization with 30% of the people that were there, I'd argue, did he really? Because it's not even the same product. It's not the same product.

Francesca:

So you're making a decision of to me, like you're running, yeah, you're running, you're operating, but are you operating well? And there's a very stark difference, and I would argue from what you're saying is that when you're doing these really deep cuts, you're going to be operating leaner, but you're not going to be operating well, a hundred percent.

Mel:

Peter's call to action is to pay attention to your orgs check engine light and his ask to HR leaders is to have the courage to pull and present the numbers to leadership when measurements are showing things have been cut too deep. So that's a call to action for HR leaders. I would say that's a call to action for any leader have the courage to have a conversation. Hbr's call to action is for orgs to humanize the layoff experience. You and I talk about this a lot and it's something that we shared extensive tips on in our layoff playbook from last year, so we can link back to that for folks who are interested, and then for decision makers.

Mel:

Considering the lever of layoffs, you should ask yourselves is the short-term win worth the long-term damage? And also if the decision is making you more efficient or is it making you more competitive in the long-term. And which one do you care more about? Vr article pulled out a really great quote from a Pixar director, brad Bird, who said if you have low morale, for every dollar you spend you get 25 cents value. But if you have high morale, for every dollar you spend you get $3 worth of value.

Francesca:

So keep that in mind, yeah.

Mel:

Is it efficient or is it competitive?

Francesca:

Fortune and the 100 best companies to work for did this survey of European companies, and they found that trust is a key factor for AI adoption. There's a couple of things that are really important here, and, yes, this is a European study. It absolutely holds true for any other country with a big selection of knowledge workers, and we know that knowledge workers' jobs are probably going to have some of the biggest impacts in terms of how AI will change, shape their role and their career. And what they mentioned is that 34% of the workforce is actually excited to use AI tools, but only 25% feel their organization is making meaningful investments in their ability to use AI, so there's already a little bit of a discrepancy. We covered a little bit ago, around the idea of bring your own AI to work, that almost 80% of employees, linkedin and Microsoft did a study that said most people are bringing their own AI to work, while they're waiting for their organization to figure this out. Most people are excited, they want to play, they want to test it out, and so, whether or not you're making an investment as a company or not, or putting the processes into place, your employees are using AI. They're going to be bringing AI, but how you can really benefit as a company is if you create this environment of trust.

Francesca:

And the biggest difference they talked about was fairness, and when they looked at how these top 100 companies actually build trust and build fairness, there were three key ways that I wanted to share. One is they audit their total compensation to ensure every employee gets their fair share. So this is things like stock bonus programs, making sure that people feel like they're getting a percentage of the pie. This is stuff like transparency around pay. This is like making big strides around pay equity as well and the transparency around that, that idea of fairness being there in the system and also that transparency that would build the trust that fairness exists. Specifically, around compensation, right Makes sense, and they talked about how Cisco, which is their fifth ranked multinational company on the list, regularly reviews compensation. They move very quickly to fix problems and they have a very big pay parity program going on. So, again, employees feel like they can trust the system and that the system is as fair as possible.

Mel:

Yeah, we talk about this often. The transparency is key here in building trust.

Francesca:

Yeah, what is it? What is it? Just be clear, just be clear, just be clear. I know you and I when we first started working, you would get in trouble if you told someone how much you made.

Mel:

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was like it's instilled in us that you should not ever talk about your salary, and I'm like why?

Francesca:

Yeah, Like a black hole right, it's a secret.

Francesca:

Yeah, but ideally it's all out in the open and if you are working towards pay parity, if you're working towards fairness, why would you have to hide? So? One the auditing of the total compensation, the transparency around the total compensation for every employee absolutely doable, huge Cisco a great use case for that. Two is investing in talent mobility, and this happens in a couple of different ways. One is making sure your people have things like continuous upskilling around AI, that they have the opportunities to actually apply those skills. So, ie, please don't put out like a everyone has to complete this AI certification and then give them no opportunity to practice that.

Mel:

You're not having them test it and how they use it for work?

Francesca:

Yeah, yes, One of the things is really making sure that organizations think about their blind spots, of who at the company will have a harder time accessing training and opportunity, and making sure you're going into the nooks and crannies of your organization and figuring that out. But when organizations do that, huge gains again in trust and in fairness. Yeah, the last one I loved, which I'm going to give Salesforce as an example talking candidly with employees about the future of AI in the workplace. Salesforce is an example of this in terms of how they're going both ways in the future of AI in the workplace. One is they did put out a certification program about how the company was approaching AI, so every employee had the opportunity to have the literacy and, honestly, the talking points around. Where is Salesforce going with AI? Within two months, 92% of all employees completed the training. So again, this stuff's possible. That's why I'm pointing this out, bringing everyone along, but in turn.

Francesca:

As I was reading this, I'm like doesn't everyone do this? Until I read the fine print. In turn, salesforce employees participate in a 15-minute survey about their employee experience twice a year. Now, right away, mel, I know you're probably thinking doesn't everybody fucking do this? What's so special about it? Here's what's special about it. No, they don't, no, they don't. But this is the thing on transparency that I would love to see every company doing. The company makes the survey results available to every employee as part of their commitment, and employees can filter by location, leader, survey question and more, so you can look up a leader and be like what's the feedback on this particular leader as it relates to employee engagement?

Mel:

I think that's excellent. Yeah, I think that is 100% excellent, especially when you think of the research that you do. Internal is internal talent mobility right Some at some points there are pros and cons. If you really love your organization and you feel like you gain a lot from it it's like the longevity, the opportunity to learn and grow within a company that you really believe in or feel aligned to like that's a huge positive. But you and I have seen, like internal talent mobility also has its downsides. You're not really sure what that team is like. It can be an entirely different culture from the culture you're coming from, even though it's the same organization. In terms of clarity on the job or growth opportunities when you move to a new team, that's not always clear either. No, if that's going to help or hurt your career, even though you're moving internally like, there's not a lot of insight into that and typically you don't get compensated as well as if you are coming from the outside.

Francesca:

No, you don't being internally, you just don't.

Mel:

Which is. That's a whole other conversation. It's a good thing you just don't, which is that's a whole other conversation, but I love the idea of, like, full transparency and equipping employees with information that they would normally have when they're doing research externally for certain roles. Like you get a lot of this information externally.

Francesca:

Yeah, and the other thing I love about it, too, is you and I have both led teams, led organizations. About it, too, is you and I have both led teams, led organizations. If we had an internal candidate come onto our team, I can go in and look at a lot of times their performance reviews I have access to that Just be fully transparent. It should be fully transparent, I think, and that's what I really loved about it the idea of things going both ways and making sure that we're all riding on this ship, ship together, and so it's not complex. No, but it's not easy to do, but you can do it, and these companies are doing it in terms of, again, that fairness, that transparency, piece around comp around telemobility, around transparency. I find it interesting, though, that if you don't have that trust, if you don't have that sense of fairness in your soil, right In the environment, in the firmatera of your company right now, your AI adoption as a company is going to suffer.

Mel:

A hundred percent.

Francesca:

Hey, friends, this episode of your Work Friends was hosted by Francesca Ranieri and myself, mel Plett. This episode was produced and edited by Mel Plett and myself, francesca Ranieri.

Mel:

Our theme music is by Pink Zebra and you can follow us over on all of our social media platforms Instagram, tiktok, youtube and, if you're so inclined, join us over on LinkedIn in our large and growing community, and you can email us at friend at your work friends dot com, or visit us on your work friends dot com. Also, folks, please like, subscribe and leave a review. If you enjoyed this episode, and if you really enjoyed it, please share with a work friend or two.