Your Work Friends | Fresh Insights on the Now and Next of Work

Never Not Working: The Hidden Cost of Always Being On w/ Malissa Clark

• Francesca Ranieri • Season 2 • Episode 77

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Is your brain still working even when you're not? You're not alone—and it's probably costing you more than you think.

In this episode of Your Work Friends, we sit down with Dr. Malissa Clark—organizational psychologist and author of Never Not Working—to unpack how hustle culture, job insecurity, and digital overload are making it harder than ever to truly disconnect.

We talk through the 4 types of workaholism, the science behind why your body never gets to rest, and what recovery can actually look like (especially if mindfulness makes you want to scream). Whether you’re leading a team or just trying to survive the triple-peak workday, this is your permission slip to stop running on fumes.

🔍 What we cover:

  • How to know if you’re a workaholic (even if you love your job)
  • Why overwork often looks like ambition
  • The physiological toll of being “always on”
  • Why managers—not Slack—are the real culture shapers
  • Recovery strategies that go beyond deep breathing

🎧 Featuring: Dr. Malissa Clark, Director of the Healthy Work Lab and Associate Professor at the University of Georgia

Connect with Malissa here

Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.

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Speaker 1:

Don't focus on how you feel when you're working. How do you feel when you're not working? Hey, welcome to your work, friends, where we are breaking down the now and next of work.

Speaker 2:

So you stay ahead. I'm Mel Plett and I am Francesca Ranieri.

Speaker 1:

And we had the pleasure of recently interviewing Melissa Clark. She is the associate professor of industrial organization psychology at the University of Georgia and the director of the Healthy Work Lab and the author of Never Not Working why the Always-On Culture is Bad for Business and how to Fix it. This conversation was amazing. I just love everything Melissa's about, everything that she's doing and I like that she's calling this out that always being on is actually really bad for your work. If you're wondering if you're always on, you are. I was in denial and Melissa has a really good quiz in the front of her book that I took and it was definitely you're a workaholic, which isn't good for you, right? And you can't do your best work if you're never stepping away.

Speaker 2:

It's also very eye-opening. You don't realize that just because you're not in front of a screen or not in front of your team doesn't mean you're not working. For someone like me, I will wake up in the middle of the night at 2 am and continue to think about work. I'm thinking about it as I'm cooking dinner, as I'm in a meeting with somebody else, thinking about I'm double working. If you are spending your mental energy, you are working. Energy, you are working. And the quiz, our conversation, the book, all relate to me that I'm always freaking on and that ain't good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it can really inhibit innovation and I now am wondering how many good ideas I'm losing out on by not giving myself the space to refresh. We talk about ways that you can build activities into your day that help you decompress, that help you move away from this kind of state so you can be at your best when you need to be, and I think it's really helpful for folks to get healthier.

Speaker 2:

About work yeah, it's a conversation I think we all need to have and have with ourselves Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

With that, here's Melissa Clark. Okay, I'm going to jump right into workaholism, because your book Never Not Working one it struck a chord with me. I can totally relate to never disconnecting. That wasn't always the case, by the way, but slowly, over time, we see that we're more and more connected. I'm just going to read a few stats. That Microsoft Work Trends Index annual report came out recently and they're calling it the rise of the infinite workday. So that report came out and I was reading that at the same time as reading your book and I'm like, oh, this is perfect timing. And they found that most people start their day at six, ended at 730. And now a peak performance window of working time is considered 430 to 730. And all I could think was growing up. Dinner was like at 6, 630. And if your friends called, your parents were like do not answer that phone, it's past seven. So parents were like do not answer that phone, it's past seven. So it's like where's the boundary with work? There's no boundary anymore, right? And the whole world interrupted.

Speaker 1:

So I'm curious. Workaholism goes beyond just hours, because I'm noting some hours here, but it's sinking into work around the clock, this constant mental loop, right? So how can you recognize, as individuals, when we've moved into workaholism ourselves? How do we? What are the warning signs? Automatically, people just go to work hours as the proxy and the gauge. But it's not that, like you said, it's much messier.

Speaker 1:

A good way to think about it is to break down the four different dimensions of workaholism and that way, once you know them, you can keep an eye out for if you're feeling these things or experiencing these things. So the first dimension is the motivational dimension. This is feeling like you ought to be working, this kind of inner pressure. I describe it as a pit in your stomach. It's this uneasy feeling when you're not working. Oh, I really should be checking my email or doing this report or work on this presentation I have next week. That's different than working, because you're pulled to it, because you love it, and so it can get really messy too. You can feel both at the same time, and that's normal too. But if you find yourself feeling like you ought to be working, that's one component. The second component is thinking about work all the time. So that's a cognitive component and this is your inability to mentally disconnect. So if you're not physically working, you're working in your head a lot of the times. So think about what does your mind drift to when you're not at work, when you're hanging out with your friends or your family? Are you actually in the moment or do you find yourself constantly drifting back to work? Or you have a hard time just sitting and being engaged in a conversation without that constant nagging thought about this, that and the other thing related to work. Then there's the negative emotions. So, with that pit in your stomach, is feeling anxious or unsettled or just really uncomfortable is a way to think about it when you're not working. The reason this drives people to work is that they work to settle that uncomfortable feeling. And then there is the work hours component. But it's hard to track. We don't clock in and clock out a lot of us for our jobs, but it's hard to track. We don't clock in and clock out a lot of us for our jobs. And so are we really tracking how much we're working if we're also checking our email throughout the day, the evening, the weekend, getting on our laptop to do a few things in the evening or first thing when we wake up with our coffee, that counts as work if we're working, and all that stuff adds up. Coffee, that counts as work if we're working and all that stuff adds up Things like working even when you're on vacation, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot of different ways of being attached to your work in this maladaptive way is how I think about it. So I would say, just pay attention to your gut, feelings, your emotions, your thoughts, and then these sneaking in work here and there. Those are some telltale signs that you might actually have some workaholic tendencies. I talked to many people that didn't really realize that was workaholism and that was really eye-opening for them to just pay more attention to these little things here and there, totally guilty of the thinking. One, by the way, when I read about that I was like, oh, I can't even go on a walk sometimes without just in ruminating on yeah, checklists or things I'm thinking about and I'm like, can I shut my brain off? I can't. My husband always jokes you never shut your brain off. I don't know if that's one of the most common ones, but it's just constant like a loop. So yeah, it's pretty common and for me, I definitely have some workaholic tendencies.

Speaker 1:

I have to actively distract myself, and so, in order to shut it off, I can't just engage in mindfulness relaxation exercise. I have to actively focus on something else, distract myself. So I listen to podcasts a lot when I'm walking or working out or driving, so that my mind doesn't automatically drift to work and no, they're not work-related podcasts. I think that's key too. Yeah, something not work-related, yeah. So I have to force myself not to think about work. It's tough.

Speaker 1:

We hear a lot about like engagement and there's a lot of blurriness between like engagement, productivity and workaholism. What's the real difference between those? That's where it gets really tricky. There's not like a concrete difference between the two, because you can be an engaged workaholic I would put myself in that category. I love my work and I am drawn to it because I enjoy so many different parts about it, but I also struggle to disconnect. We call it the push and pull of work, and so it's not a clear.

Speaker 1:

You are either a workaholic or you're an engaged worker. You can absolutely be both, and what's important to think about is that work engagement is shown to have a ton of really positive outcomes, right for performance, for well you're a workaholic. If you're engaged, it's fine because you know that's going to help your productivity and your well-being. But they actually find there's more evidence for the opposite, that the positive effects of work engagement on our productivity and our health and well-being are essentially almost washed away by the negative impacts of workaholism on our health and well-being, are essentially almost washed away by the negative impacts of workaholism on our health and well-being and productivity. So it's something worth keeping in mind. It's not an either or.

Speaker 1:

And yes, work engagement is great, but what I tend to tell people to focus on is don't focus on how you feel when you're working. How do you feel when you're not working? Yeah, I like that flip, because then you're not taking work out of the equation altogether. What am I disassociating? Am I not taking action outside of this sort of thing? Because I know it's easy to get into kind of those freeze modes, right, when you feel overwhelmed by the work. What do you say to the folks who are like I can work seven days a week. It energizes me. Can we truly stay healthy this way? Or are we just feeding into this kind of badge of honor hustle culture that we've built up in the US. My personal opinion I think people are fooling themselves.

Speaker 1:

When I wrote the book, I interviewed dozens of people from Workaholics Anonymous. That's a real organization that people join to try to, you know, combat their workaholic tendencies. It's structured actually after Alcoholics Anonymous, with a 12-step program. Every single person had some sort of negative health or relationship impact, many things, usually across their lives, like I had four heart attacks. I heard that multiple people having multiple heart attacks.

Speaker 1:

So I want to give you an example of someone I spoke with. He was almost in his 80s. He was still working full time. He had his own company. His wife almost divorced him multiple times, health problems galore, and I was like, when are you going to stop working? And he said I'm never going to stop this.

Speaker 1:

And I've interviewed a lot of people workaholics, spouses of workaholics and really a lot of people do recognize it's bad. But the people that don't, even if they don't recognize it, their body is telling them something different. And the people around them their family, their partners, their kids are also seeing something different. We've seen huge layoffs over the past year. I think one of the statistics we saw recently is 3.5% of white-collar jobs have been cut in this past year. The one in five of the S&P 500 is now smaller, and so teams that are left behind are picking up the slack.

Speaker 1:

How do you see this shaping the future of workaholism as well? Because there's like the individual side where we have control is like the individual side where we have control. But when you're in these environments that have been impacted from the recent shifts, how does that impact the future of workaholism? Wonderful questions. Part of what drives workaholism is from within, like we have our own different personality traits and some of us just naturally are more workaholic than others. Same thing as if we talk about type A personality or extroversion or something. But there is also research showing that the environment can shape even things that we thought were stable, like our personality, which is really fascinating with workaholism. We're finding that things like the society that we grew up in, the organizational culture, the team culture your supervisor demands all those things can shape future workaholic tendencies.

Speaker 1:

And in a study that I'm working on right now, we're actually looking at job insecurity and how that affects future levels of workaholism, and we're finding evidence for that, and I think the reason why is that job insecurity is a huge job stressor. It causes a lot of anxiety. This uncertainty that we're feeling is one of those features of workaholism, right, so we're feeling really unsure about the stability of our job and even just the existence of our career in the future with AI. There's a lot of uncertainties and I think that uncertainty can fuel some of the already existing tendencies that we might have, and even people that don't have workaholic tendencies. I think this uncertain environment most certainly might escalate that as well, if not workaholism, just overworked behaviors, right, because everyone is.

Speaker 1:

I hear this from so many people and honestly, I feel it too. I think a lot. You can make the case for almost every single job being changed in very dramatic and transformational ways in the future with AI, and it's just very uncertain. Yeah, so it has huge implications for overwork in addition to workaholism. Yeah, I have friends who feel that maybe they're going through merger and acquisition or the AI. They're plucking out departments and replacing it with AI and friends who.

Speaker 1:

I never thought were workaholics. I'm seeing their home, their personality change, so what you're saying really resonates with me, because like they're working till six, seven, eight pm, but that's not their personality. It never has been until these like other actors, which is interesting, so interesting to see that play out. Yeah, I know. So I do worry about that in the future yeah there is this, and you talk about it.

Speaker 2:

In the book, too, there is this idea of being always on, because I even find that the definition of work is expanding so much, meaning it was just about the tasks and the job you had to do and you had more job security. Now to your very good point. It's about the tasks you need to do, the political minutiae you need to map through the insecurity that you're always trying to navigate as well. Maybe I'm going to have my job, maybe I won't. I also find now you need to build your brand and have a presence online. I don't understand how you come out of that, not having your personality just be, like changed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, excellent point. I don't think enough people are talking about this. Just how, for some careers mine is one, yours is one you have to have that public presence and that is a full-time job, like punching your LinkedIn and your Instagram I'm not even remotely good at that. I feel that intense pressure and I know I need to be doing more. And it's like when do you have time to do that on top of your other job is in the evening. Do that on top of your other job is in the evening. It just makes it so you're constantly thinking about that, not just your work, what you're paid for in your job description, but the other aspects of work. Yeah, such an excellent point.

Speaker 2:

One of the things about Always On you talk about is this idea of like triple peak and Always On. Talk to us about. What does that look like for the average person right now? Is it what we just talked about? Is it what we just talked?

Speaker 1:

about. Is it more so? This is really fascinating, talking about some interesting stuff that Microsoft has looked into, and what's really cool about this is that they're using their technology to track, like keystroke data and objective data, so it's not just self-report of when we're working, they're actually tracking when we're working by use of, like all of their software programs. So during COVID, they conducted a study of when people were working, when a lot of people were working from home and a lot of people also had their kids home with them, where this is back when schools had moved to remote. So if you had young kids, then they were home with you and you were trying to do both during the day.

Speaker 1:

And so what happened during COVID and this was picked up in Microsoft's study was that we have a natural peak in productivity at the beginning of the workday towards the end, before we're done. That's normal, but then they found a triple peak, which is this additional burst of productivity in those evening hours I forget the exact it was like between 7 and 9 pm. It was what they found during COVID and I'm thinking, ok, I don't have young kids now, but I remember when they were young and that is exactly when I would put them to bed and then you just get back to work. So that's what I and I think others have said the same thing. So what was happening then is parents that had kids home with them a lot of them had this burst of productivity when they finally could put them down for bed.

Speaker 1:

That's fine in that context, right, but what happened is we never really transitioned out of that, and this most recent study is still showing that we now have this additional peak of productivity in the evening, where we didn't really made that conscious effort to stop that habit and go back to respecting work hours and respecting boundaries, and we've all just become accustomed to being available and, I think, having those clear discussions of what are our work hours, when is it reasonable to ping someone on Slack or whatever your app messaging is, and when can this wait until the next day during work? When can you send an email and schedule? Most recent the infinite workday studies are. What they're telling me is that we continue to really blur that boundary between work and home and we really are to the point now where we really don't have them, and it's going to take a conscious effort to reestablish that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you're spot on there. It's so interesting to me because I know a lot of people like to blame Slack and the tech is the villain and everything else, and I appreciate that we are more connected, we have more accessibility to broadband and Zoom Teams, slack, whatever and I think it comes down to and I'd love for you to say, francesca, you're full of shit, or yes, I agree, but I do think it really comes down to not the CEO level, like the Andy Jassy level, saying AI is going to take over, get your shit together and get out of here, but I think it comes down to this team level. Leadership. Being very aware of this is how humans are interacting with this tech and setting those boundaries. Are you finding that's what it's taking or is it really?

Speaker 1:

No, you're spot on, you really are. The manager has the most direct relationship to the employees, right? That team and the team dynamics really shape how connected you are, whether you want to be or not. There's what's called the cycle of responsiveness that this communication technology causes, and it's basically it starts with an always-on expectation where you know you're expected to respond right away when people message you. So that's again, that's the culture of your team, right? What does your boss think about when they send a message? Do they expect a reply right away?

Speaker 1:

If that's the case, then people know that, and so then they tend to be always checking to make sure they didn't miss something. And because they're always checking, they're not gonna miss something and they're going to immediately reply. And everyone else on the team, they don't want to be left behind. They don't want decisions to be made while they're at a soccer game watching their kid play. They want to be in the loop.

Speaker 1:

So everyone has this pressure to always be on, and because everyone's going to respond right away, you respond right away, and it just it like amplifies this always on cycle and it just reinforces that culture and then so, yeah, it really the only way to break that is to have a clear break, a boundary setting meeting, and it's not just one meeting, it's going to have to be multiple meetings, because the way this breaks is either the manager doesn't set firm boundaries or the manager just allows it to happen again and the first person to break that boundary. If that's not addressed, then it just goes right back to being always on. So there was a book I read when I was researching for my book. It was on school culture actually, and they had a quote that stood out to me it's the culture of the school. So in this case the organization is is based on the worst behavior that's tolerated, and I just loved that because it makes so much sense.

Speaker 2:

It makes sense. I mean just this subtle. If your boss is checking their email on vacation or if they're responding at 2 am in the morning, it makes sense even with toxic behaviors, and people are doing stuff that causes cancer on the team, it makes total sense. Do you find that there are some cultures that don't have this work above everything thing going on? Or are we just all needing therapy in the US?

Speaker 1:

I think there are definitely some parts that are unique to the US and other countries too that have real problems with workaholism. China, japan, south Korea, those all come to mind too. But the US is bad too. But there are countries that are doing it different, and you look at a lot of the European countries that have everyone takes holiday for multiple weeks, maybe even a month in the summer, and everything just shuts down at certain points during the afternoon still sometimes, and lots of companies have had success with a four-day work week, some in the US a little bit, but a lot more in, like Australia, new Zealand and many European countries Australia, new Zealand and many European countries.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I think there are some cultural elements to having work as like the central part of your identity, and it was heartbreaking to interviewing some of the people for my book that there were several people that had debilitating health issues, that thinking of one person in particular who some sort of autoimmune disease that prevented her from working altogether for basically the rest of her career, and really wrestling with what is my purpose now, like why am I here? If I can't work, then what am I contributing? And so I think for a lot of people. This identity piece is so intertwined with who they are as a person, their worth as a person, and this historically goes back to things like the Protestant work ethic, and so this is like culturally embedded in a lot of us, and one of the other things I'm writing about is these ideas that are culturally embedded in us as kids and how we partially internalize that and just carry it with us, and that's what fuels our present day workaholism.

Speaker 1:

What was really interesting to me, though like COVID, I feel like was this eye-opening moment where a lot of people realize just how much everything can change in an instant. And I don't know if you felt it, but I felt like this moment in time where people really centered their identity on their relationships with others, like them as a parent and as a child, and then we just I don't know, it's like we just are losing that gradually and going right back to the way it was, like this return to work mandate, and so it was hopeful, really hopeful, and then I just there was this new emphasis on mental health in the workplace, and after the quiet quitting, it just felt like for a moment there we were getting it and we were doing a lot of stuff right, and then we're just going right back to doing stuff wrong.

Speaker 2:

I feel very not to be. I know we're all female, it's called it feels very broke. Get back to it and I'm just like. The value of community, the value of thinking differently, the value of relationship and especially, if you want to really talk about it, going into AI. That's going to be your differentiator.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot of hidden costs with it, right? You've brought up a few the story that you shared of the 80-year-old guy who can't see, multiple heart attacks and impacts to his family, or the autoimmune disease. That's no joke, right? We've talked a little bit about these hidden costs. What are the hidden costs to this? How are we paying for this? Yeah, so there's tons of research on this, and so the health impacts are tremendous.

Speaker 1:

With a lot of aspects of workaholism, it's you're constantly in this like sense of urgency, almost where I have to work. I need to fix this uncomfortable feeling, and a lot of people relate it to being in fight or flight mode, but our bodies are just not meant to be in this fight or flight mode all the time, and never all the time, and never being able to get out of that and when you're done working, to rest and recover and be able to reset for the next day. If you're never doing that, if you're always on, if you're always thinking about work or feeling anxious about work or actually working, then your body is never going back to baseline, right? In order to have a healthy functioning, you need that, and so what happens is your body just adjusts its set point to a higher level and that spurs a lot of these downstream health outcomes. So we see that increases your blood pressure, your resting heart rate. So we have people with a lot of cardiovascular disease. Sleep issues, which not surprising. If you can't stop thinking about work, it's hard to fall asleep or you might wake up in the middle of the night, and sleep is really important, as we know. Not prioritizing our health and well-being with like exercise and stuff like this Autoimmune was, and even like the development of cancer.

Speaker 1:

Again, like if your body's always in fight or flight, it's diverting really critical resources to your critical organs and what that's doing is it's taking it away from like other aspects that needs that support, and so then you see the development of autoimmune disease and digestive issues and eventually mortality in some of these instances. So I could go on and on about the health outcomes, but I think a lot of it it's important to think about. We can't always be on, and if we are, then it's basically always our bodies are always in fight or flight mode. Then it's basically always our bodies are always in fight or flight mode. Hear about those horror stories like the person who retired and then drops dead the next day, or they went on ppo for the first time in two years and then died on the crew there's constantly like their body almost went into rest and was like, yep, that's it. Because so like, how do it's heartbreaking, it really is like, how do it's heartbreaking, it really is when you think about that it's.

Speaker 1:

I know we have these horror stories, but you also interviewed a ton of people and in that workaholics community who's like in recovery or trying to be, was there any stories that inspired you where someone was able to really recover and maybe move away from these outcomes, these horror outcomes that are, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There were so many inspiring stories and I think, just by the nature of talking people, talking to people in Workaholics Anonymous, a lot of them chose to be a part of this organization, so they were actively trying to change and I think for that reason, for a lot of people they've been very successful in completely changing just their relationship with work. There was one person that I talk about in the book a lot. His name is Gabe and he was a CEO and really was leading like the typical workaholic leader driving his employees way too hard, but again being in this like panic mode all the time he what did he call himself?

Speaker 1:

It was like the fear monster or something like that, because he was always dwelling on why did we do this, why did we do this, why can't we do this?

Speaker 1:

And he talked about his transformation and I thought this was really critical because, yes, in his personal life, tons of things changed, but as a leader, he went from being this like frantic boss focusing on the past to really reevaluating his relationship with work, setting the example for his employees about taking time for himself.

Speaker 1:

He would not work these ridiculous hours, he would take time during the day to go rock climbing and whatnot.

Speaker 1:

But, most importantly, as a leader, he was able to be more strategic and forward thinking which, lo and behold, that's what leaders should be great at is actually inspiring inspiring people and people can't be inspired and creative when they're constantly in this panic mode because their boss is on them about all these things right, panicking about deadlines and whatnot.

Speaker 1:

But when he changed to just really taking a step back, focusing on two or three big ticket items every week and then letting his employees work and do their best, I could just tell in his voice when he was describing, like in the past, when he was struggling, and then now and it's really to me that was one of the people that interviewed, that stood out to me the most was just hearing that story of his personal development, but also his development as a leader. Yeah, that internal Elsa mantra of let it go is actually pretty helpful. Right, some things don't need and I have to tell my this myself, this all the time some things do not need obsessing about, because that is my nature and I definitely need to work on that and I tell myself all the time yeah, it's like recovery is powerful, not just for the individual, but anyone who's got to work with them, because you can feel that energy around.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, absolutely that. Frenetic energy and less frenetic energy. Yes, that's a perfect way to think about it yeah, and everyone else just like very stressed out and you don't do your best work because you're only stressed.

Speaker 2:

Domino effect here someone finds themselves identifying as a workaholic. How do they recover from this and I'm sure it's a much more nuanced, but how would you respond to that? What does the recovery look like?

Speaker 1:

I talk about a lot of these in the book too, but one of the ones that really comes to mind, because it's been impactful for me, is I think there's this misconception about rest and recovery. We think about the strategies that are bringing down our heart rate and helping us to calm down, which are all great, don't get me wrong Things like mindfulness, meditation, deep breathing, but I feel like if people think that's the only way to rest and recover, they might be discouraged. I know I was. I was like why do I suck at mindfulness so bad? I can't meditate at all, so don't feel guilty.

Speaker 2:

I try and I'm like, why do I suck?

Speaker 1:

at mindfulness so bad I can't meditate at all. So don't feel guilty, I try and I'm like never mind my husband's so good at it. He took a class in like transcendental meditation and he's great at it and does it like every day and I cannot. The good news is that's not the only way to rest and recover, and there's this there's a lot of research on different recovery strategies and some of them are more active. And I's a lot of research on different recovery strategies and some of them are more active. And I was actually talking with Adam Grant about this, because he was saying the same thing.

Speaker 1:

He doesn't like to just sit and do nothing. Lo and behold. That did not surprise me, thinking about all the stuff he does. And I'm the same way. I don't like to just sit and watch TV. I have to be doing something with my hands at the same time, and so if you have those kind of tendencies, then maybe some of the more active rest and recovery strategies might be good. So we know exercise is good, but maybe solo exercise still can't get you out of that mindset, maybe like playing a team sport. So before I got old and injured my knee, I used to play soccer. That was really fun, and you have to focus on the game when you're in the middle of the game.

Speaker 1:

There's another thing that I love called a mastery experience and that, to me, works really well because it's immersing yourself in something that's not work related, that takes your energy and your brain and focuses on something else. So for people that like to constantly be learning a new language or an instrument or teaching yourself how to crochet, something that takes concentration is key because it's forcing yourself to mentally detach and that has been shown to also be a good rest and recovery activity. So it's very counterintuitive, right? This active thing that you're doing actually can help you rest and recover and get back to baseline. I find that super encouraging. So I would say, if you don't like to just sit there and if you're not good at mindfulness, try a mastery experience, and that might be something to really hone in on as a way to rest and recover.

Speaker 2:

It reminds me of an investment strategy. Right, you always talk about looking at varying your portfolio. Yeah, the idea of varying your portfolio of focus, because if you're only in bonds and then the bond market goes to shit versus being diversified.

Speaker 1:

I thought about it like that. To our point earlier about identity, it also helps to build different parts of your identity, the different aspects of yourself.

Speaker 2:

That's so important because if your job goes away, you still have this other pieces of your identity, these other communities that you belong to, this other place where you feel valuable and matter and love. Great piece of advice. I'm wondering about these people that and I used to get this invite is to like just unplug, just unplug, just go on vacation, come back, you'll be fine. Or just learn the art of detachment. I get that too. What do you say to people who say to other people that are workaholics just unplug.

Speaker 1:

I just think they don't get how hard that is. Yes, unplugging is very important. We call it psychological detachment in our field, but it is not easy for everybody. So it goes right back to some. People have a really hard time shutting work off. Have you ever heard of the psychological study that it asks people to not think of white bears and then all they think about is white bears? So it's the same kind of logic, right? Just don't think about work. And of course you think about work. You just told me not to think about work. Some people that detachment has to be forced by focusing on something else not work related. Yeah, the simple fixes just to me is you're probably not a workaholic. You probably don't quite get it. I just want to say mastery, the mastery exercise works. Francesca knows this about me. I made her some stuff, but I think on the road to recovery from covid I leaned into a new hobby.

Speaker 1:

I always do this because I just love new thing, lifelong learner but I started doing stained glass and so I make stuff for people because it's very methodical and I have to really focus on this task and studio time. It's like my recharge every Monday and then it brings that community, but also moving, because, similar to Francesca and I didn't realize how much my identity and worth was tied to work and I'm like, oh man, I really got to change that, because people are more than just their job. That's like the least interesting thing about them, usually as a human being. We hear that often, but what a cool hobby. I want to see something you've done. That's fascinating. Let's see what's so?

Speaker 1:

important. Do you think legislation that's been proposed to have like work separation, legislated work, work shut off time Do you think that's something that might help in the future In the United States? Yeah, we've seen it in San Francisco. It didn't get passed, but it's been proposed. Yeah, I know that got shot down pretty quickly.

Speaker 1:

My dad always used to tell me I was such a pessimist and I feel like maybe an optimistic realism. Is it pessimism? Yeah, I think that the right to disconnect law that they were trying to pass in that form. I don't know it's going to be a lot to try to get that to pass in the States, but maybe we can take some baby steps like just other ways to think about disconnecting that aren't this exact cutoff time. I think there are. I would love that. Let me just say I love that there are other countries that have done that and it's been super successful. I'm a little skeptical that we're going to be able to pass something like that here, but I think at the company level that's something that can be implemented.

Speaker 1:

For sure, legislation is we can't even get paid your rental leave. So, ron, talk about that first. Yeah, in a perfect world, obviously I would love that. But, yeah, but at the org level, or even team level, like, oh, like, it's a great norm to incorporate for health. Yeah, that's definitely doable. Hey, melissa, are you up for wrap it around? Absolutely, okay, you could respond with one word, one sentence, or, if you have some heavy thoughts, just jump right in. You could share, share it all, we'll go with it. It's 2030. What do you think work's going to look like? Completely different in some ways, and completely the same in others.

Speaker 1:

Okay, anything you want to add to that. How different, I don't know. I feel like a century ago they predicted we've had a 14-hour work week, and here we are today. So they had predicted things would be completely different, and it's different. We have computers, we have cell phones, but it's also very much the same. We haven't gone to this wild prediction that they had, although that would be nice, but yeah. So I think it's going to be a little bit of both, although that would be nice, but yeah. So I think it's going to be a little bit of both.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I for one am excited about the potential of a 14-hour work week. That sounds pretty nice.

Speaker 1:

Right, still working on that one. Yes, long way to go. What's one thing about corporate culture you'd like to see just die already. This obsession with return to work as being like the panacea of it's just gonna make everything better. It's just again going back to old school and not really acknowledging that we have a lot of different tools that we don't need it to look like the way it looked for our parents, our grandparents, that kind of thing. So I I just wish I would die. I wish people would remain open-minded, and some people have, and some people realized once they could they would. They just yanked that ability back to work from home.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, francesca and I are on par with your thinking there, for sure, cause it's like this old school FaceTime requirement and we think like meaningful FaceTime for sure, like collaborative thing, like there's time and space. But it's really weird. It's a weird thing now. It drives me crazy like they think.

Speaker 1:

A lot of people think connections can only happen in person, but I have talked to so many employees that they work for remote first organizations and they still haven't met some of their co-workers or they meet them a year after starting and they already have these close connections and bonds. It's because their company is doing onboarding completely different. They're leveraging technology in a very unique way. Instead of just assuming the same kind of conversations can happen on Zoom as in person and that's going to be the same, they're leveraging these really cool interactive kind of platforms that are just building this sense of community in a different way. I don't know. So I could go on and on, but that I think that is a big pet peeve of mine when I hear oh, it's because we want people to have connections with other people, they have to be there, and I just think that's really short-sighted.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, check to that what's the greatest opportunity that organizations are really missing out on right now? That's a great question.

Speaker 2:

Work from home, just kidding.

Speaker 1:

I mean, that kind of was going to be my answer, so I was trying to think of something different. But again, can I have that be my answer? I do think it's the thinking right. Yeah, there's not thinking outside of the box. I wrote a chapter recently on that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's not thinking outside of the box. I wrote a chapter recently on that how to foster connections in a digital environment and just interviewing people for that chapter. Just hearing the about return to work too, it's just, and I'll cut this out, it's totally fine, but it reminds me of someone who hasn't gone to therapy to realize like their way isn't the only way to do something. And it's just, man, this is so lazy, it's so lazy and you haven't done the work, yeah, and it just feels really regressive. What are we doing? What are we doing? Commercial real estate, I agree yeah, and that's another thing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, get rid of the real estate stuff. Trying to just recoup your losses there, I get it. Yeah, that sucks Right, but you have to pivot. Yeah, I think a lot of companies found themselves in the leases that they can't get out of and now they're like, oh, this is what we're doing to save. That's just my conspiracy theory on that. But anyway, with the good music that you're listening to right now, what's on your playlist? I like alternative rock. So, honestly, most of the stuff I listen to is not new. Okay, it's like the stuff I grew up listening to in high school and college and, amazingly, a lot of those bands are touring now. Some of my favorites are cake. Uh, pearl jam yeah, like that kind of genre.

Speaker 2:

So I love yeah, I was just listening favorites, yeah, yeah, they're so good. Okay, what are you reading? And this could be an audiobook old school classic Paige Turner. What are you reading right now?

Speaker 1:

I just finished up the Women. It was the historical fiction based on women nurses in Vietnam. It's by the same author that wrote the Nightingale Really great authors, really popular but I loved it. It was very deep but very good. The Nightingale is another one. If you haven't read that, she writes like historical fiction and it's really quite amazing. Okay, I'll definitely check that out.

Speaker 1:

I like historical stuff. Who do you really admire? Who do you really admire? Adam Grant, okay. Are you familiar with him? Yeah, okay, yeah, he's like the rock star of organizational psychology, so I really admire him. I think he's always talking about good science in a really relatable way, so I aspire to be just a little bit like him, in the hopes of making an impact.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then more voices out there for sure that make it really accessible to understand what to do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. We appreciate you being here with us. How can folks stay connected with your work? Connect with me on LinkedIn. You can go to my website, melissaclarkcom. Definitely connect with me, and this was so much to my website. Melissaclarkcom. Definitely connect with me and this was so much fun, I have to say are so fun, and so I really enjoyed this. Likewise, we'd love to have you back, melissa, especially when you bring in new stuff.

Speaker 1:

Call us. Yeah, okay, sounds good. This episode was produced, edited and all things by us myself, mel plett and francesca rennery. Our music is by pink zebra and if you loved this conversation and you want to contribute your thoughts with us, please do. You can visit us at yourworkfriendscom, but you can also join us over on LinkedIn. We have a LinkedIn community page and we have the TikToks and Instagrams, so please join us in the socials and if you like this and you've benefited from this episode and you think someone else can benefit from this episode, please rate and subscribe. We'd really appreciate it. That helps keep us going. Take care, friends. Bye, friends.

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Francesca Ranieri

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Mel Plett

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