Embracing a Pleasure-Led Life Without Apology

What if pleasure wasn’t a guilty whisper but a wise guide? We dive into a frank, tender conversation about how women can reclaim pleasure from the grip of productivity culture, sin narratives, and the “tiny treat” marketing trap. From basking in the sunlight on a winter day to long, meandering talks that light up the mind, we explore how genuine delight is inseparable from presence—and how noticing the moment where pleasure turns into numbing can break cycles of restriction and excess.

We also widen the lens beyond the senses: what brings your mind pleasure, your heart pleasure, your soul pleasure? When you ask this daily, a pleasure-guided life stops sounding hedonistic and starts looking deeply humane. You may not recognize it from the outside—fewer shoulds, more signals—but you’ll feel it in the inside-out aliveness that follows. Join us for a thoughtful, funny, and gently rebellious invitation to choose joy without apology, stitch more meaning into your days, and let attention—not guilt—be your compass.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave us a quick review so more listeners can find it. 

Resources Mentioned:

On Our Best Behavior: The Price Women Pay to Be Good by Elise Loehnen 

Jodi Wellman on Astonishing Aliveness

Transcript

Warm Welcome & Celebrations

Linda 0:02

Hello everyone and welcome to Woman Uncaged. This is season five, episode four. We just talked about this and I couldn't remember. Write it down, but I didn't write down this. I didn't write down the season. And I was like, wow, it's already season five.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

It is, isn't it?

Linda 0:23

Yes, you're correct.

unknown 0:24

Okay.

Linda’s Art Shows And Book Praise

Linda 0:25

Oh, if we edited, we'd edit this out, but we don't. So there you go. Welcome. Anyway, I'm Laura Gates Lepton and I am here with my beloved bestie, Linda Katz. And I'm so proud of Linda. I was thinking about this the other day for doing some really incredible work that she's been doing with her art and like getting it out into the world. She has an opening today, which maybe she'll talk about. Um, but super exciting to me that your beautiful work is going out into the world. You're being so brave and putting it out there. And how many shows has this been like in the last, I don't know, year or so? This will be six, I think. How see? From nothing. I the last show I was participated in was in 2010.

unknown 1:12

Yeah.

Linda 1:12

And it was a show that I co-created with friends at like a wine bar in LA. I love this so much. Um, and the last show that she was in, she won the People's Choice Award. Not surprising because her work is so beautiful. And, you know, I just I know as a creator myself, I'm not a visual arts creator, but as a creator myself, it can be very hard to put your work out into the world because, you know, it's kind of like your baby and you don't want anyone to criticize it and you know, to have it hang up on the walls next to other people's work. It's really daunting. And so I so applaud Linda for getting her stuff out into the world and not only the artwork, but she has an incredible book that is just beautiful and wonderful. It's called Homecoming. I highly recommend it. It tells the beautiful story of her own journey, but also gives you an insight into her work, which has so much depth and just beauty to it. I know, because I was one of her clients. I might credit a lot of what I have in my life right now to Linda. Um, and she is just such a wise, smart, fun, soulful person. And all of that shows up in all of her work, whether it's coaching, in the artwork, or in her writing. She also has a fabulous Substack, which is fairly new, called Wild Woman in the Burbs. Yes. That I write in occasionally and might be writing it more frequently. Which I love. I haven't seen a lot of it because there isn't a lot of it, but I love it. Anyway, get your hands on some of this stuff. Find out what she's doing, follow her. She's amazing. So nice to be here with you, Linda. Oh, thank you so much, Laura. I'm like, oh, opening up the receiving receptors every time. And I feel like every time I'm like, oh, ditto.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, I feel that way too.

Laura’s Editing Superpower

Naming The Topic: Pleasure

Pleasure As Teacher, Not Taboo

Restriction, Excess, And Diminishing Returns

Linda 2:59

All the things, all of the wonderful, kind things that you shared. And for those of you who don't know, so part of the reason why I my book became much stronger is because I had the most amazing editor. Uh, so if you, you probably already know that Laura is an amazing life and money coach who works with women. But one of the ways that she also works with women is on editing book projects, especially if they have a memoir aspect. And I feel like that is just one of your many strengths, Laura, is just your big heart and your curiosity and your listening for what's underneath translates very perfectly into your memoir editing because you can understand and see what's not being said, where we might need to get a little bit more information, where we might need to divulge a bit more. And you do it with such love and care. And there was never any fear in me of handing my book to you, because I knew that it was going to be inheld in such love and tender care that you just so naturally embody. And having spoken to other writers who have hired other editors, it has been a very different and horrifying experience. So if you are thinking of writing your own book or you have a memoir that's been sitting there and you need someone to really help you to bring it out into the world and to make it into the best version of your story that it can be, I cannot recommend my dear, dear friend Laura enough, amongst all of the many other things that you do. It's such a pleasure to be here with you today. Yay! Yay! And that's it. Speaking of which, oh yeah, exactly. What is our topic today? So, our topic today is pleasure. And to me, for how this is showing up in my life currently is this questioning and kind of discovery process of inviting pleasure to be a teacher. I think as women, especially in patriarchal societies, pleasure is a no-no. It's uh it's oftentimes, I'm curious to get your feedback too, Laura. Like for me, I'm like, oh, when I think of someone who's purposely embodying or seeking pleasure in their life, we get words like selfish always, hedonistic, um, like, oh, kind of self-absorbed or shallow. Um, there's so many ways that we police ourselves and sometimes inadvertently one another when it comes to the pursuit of pleasure. But what I've realized and am realizing more and more in my life, especially when it comes to like sensual pleasures, like the embodied pleasures of any kind, is that the more I can tap into that, the less I fall into these patterns of restriction and excess, which I think have very, neither of those have have very little to do with pleasure. Whether it's, you know, I think of like when I was younger, I used to be able to drink quite a lot. And now sadly I cannot. Uh becoming my mother has a very low tolerance. Um, but part of the reason for that is I've also realized, like, I love a good glass of red wine. Like, I just love it. But there comes a point where I'm like, the pleasure that I'm receiving from it is diminishing now. Somewhere in like, if it's like, oh, I've had two glasses, like sometimes it's one glass, sometimes it's three. But there will come a point where I'm like, oh, I'm not receiving the same amount of pleasure from this wine that I was when I started drinking it. And when I'm tuned into that, I can stop because it ceased being pleasurable. But when I'm not tuned into that, it's like something else comes in at that point that keeps me consuming whatever it is. And it might be wine, it might be sugar, it might be chips, it might be uh TV or you know, social media, whatever it is. And I feel like the more that I can tune into and not judge pleasure, but actually see it as a teacher, the more it's like shifting my trust with myself and my body and what it means to be human in like really fundamental ways. But I'd love to know what what comes up for you on this topic. Yeah, I mean, the the first word that comes to mind for me is frivolous. You know, it's just not it's not productive. Um, you know, pleasure is not, it doesn't produce anything, right? Like it's not doesn't produce anything tangible. It's you know, that kind of thing. Um I I sin comes up, you know. I I was not really raised in a religious household, but my extended family is religious, and it's definitely something that I absorbed from them. Um, you know, and it's it's yeah, that it's somehow bad. Pleasure is bad.

unknown 8:20

Yeah.

Linda 8:21

Like that's the message that I've gotten that I've had to undo for myself. And I I know a lot of my clients as well. Um that there's especially when you're in a patriarchal society that wants you to be productive all the time, like a producing machine essentially. It's like any if you're like choosing to read a book instead of uh you know, producing something that could earn money, or if you're you're reading a book instead of cleaning your house, or doing something that someone can visibly point to and go, yeah, that that's good. You did that. That's excellent. That's a good use of your time. But when you're using it for pleasure, if you're using your time for pleasure, it's automatically seen as not a good use of your time. You're wasting your time. You're wasting your time. I think part of it is because it doesn't necessarily serve anyone else, at least not overtly. I actually think it serves everybody. But because if a woman is taking care of her needs and is taking time for pleasure and is filling her own cup, then she's much more pleasant to be around and much more fun and and probably more productive when she wants to be. You know, I think it probably serves everybody. I'm sure it serves mothers when wouldn't need patience with their children to have some pleasure in their lives and take care of themselves.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah.

Patriarchy, Productivity, And “Frivolous”

Sin, Seven Deadlies, And Abstinence Myths

Linda 9:41

But that's not we don't tend to go beneath the surface for these things. And so it's like, oh no, you're you're wasting your time. You're not doing something that you should be doing. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, oh my gosh, there's so many things that you said there that I would love to pick up on. The first, I think, is this idea that pleasure is bad. It reminded me of the book by Elise Lonan, um, which I think I think I can't remember what it's called now. I'll I'll put that one in the show notes. I think it's actually under my computer, but I can't see it. Um, but she writes about the seven deadly sins. And I think so many of those, it's you know, like the gluttony, the lust, like there it is just baked into a lot of our um religious language, a lot of our culture, that oh, if you let, you know, if you let a little pleasure in, it's just gonna come in and take over. Like there's no, there's no nuance, there's just a complete distrust, a complete, like, you know, just abs abstain from whatever it is, the whole abstinence, which I'm I think we should all know by now, after so many failed abstinence campaigns for kids in high school, like that shit doesn't work. So maybe we should try a different approach. And I feel like I remember uh way back when I was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition in 2013, the founder speaking about how because of these labels of good and bad, right? We label so many things, like including food, ways we spend our time, good or bad. But then it has like this kind of like magnetic quality to it at the same time. Like the more that we restrict it and say something's bad, you're like, it gives us a little jolt of like, ooh, I'm gonna be bad and I'm gonna go do this thing, versus just listening to our own desires around what we want and being like, oh, I think I would I would love some chocolate or I would love to go read a good book or go take a bath, or you know, there's so many layers to it. So I feel like there's that piece. And then this other piece that came in, which I'd also love to get your thoughts on, Laura, that I feel is an interesting, I ponder the intersection between pleasure and meaning. And because you said pleasure doesn't directly serve others, it really only directly serves ourselves. And then from the overflow, it does naturally right impact positively. I would say that's what I believe. I think that's what what we're told. Yes, yes, yeah, very much so. Um, but then meaning, I think we're also taught comes from serving others. And I'm not sure if I believe that entirely or don't believe it. Like I'm like, oh, maybe in a certain degree it it does. And so I'd love to hear kind of what comes up for you and how have you explored or maybe see this dynamic of meaning versus pleasure. Okay, I'm I've honestly never thought about it. So thank you for bringing it up. Not to put you on the spot or anything. No, I love it. I I I have certainly been exposed to, you know, meaning comes from serving others. I don't agree that that's the sole source of meaning at all. I think personally I derive a lot of meaning from being in nature. And I'm not serving others when I'm doing that. Yesterday I went for a walk. I've been cooped up for a long time because the weather's been so cold. I went for a walk. It was so beautiful. I snapped a photo and sent it to Linda because it was so gorgeous. Just and that provided me with A, pleasure and B meaning, just to be out and witness it, and especially because it's something I've been missing. Is to, you know, it's been so icy in here, and and yesterday it was warm enough that I could actually get out and walk, and it just felt so good. And yeah, and to me, connecting with nature is deeply meaningful and pleasurable.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah.

Linda 13:38

So yeah, I don't I think it's short-sighted to think that all meaning comes from serving others and and and pretty convenient, you know, in a patriarchal society. And I also think that's only lobbed at women. I don't think men are told like all of your meaning comes from serving others. I think they're told their meaning comes from making money and defending things that they're told are important and yeah, things like that. Yeah, I yeah, I completely agree. And I think it it it is very um, it gets very crossed over with those kind of patriarchal beliefs around this is what again, what it means to be a good woman, to have a meaningful life, um, is that there is an a life devoid of pleasure. And it reminds me of that email you sent me a long time ago by someone whose name I can't recall, but she had that handy little axis. Do you remember this? Where it was like in one corner, it was like you're basically like dead. It was like meaning was on one axis and pleasure was on the other. And I think that's what we kind of we do. We we put them in some ways in opposition to one another. And I think because of this way that we tend to see it, as pleasure is self-serving and meaning is serving others. But what I'm hearing you say is that maybe that's not even true. Like maybe that isn't how we need to look at these things, that they're a lot uh they're a lot more interwoven. Was it Jody Wellman? I think it might have been Jody Wellman. I think you're right, yes. Yeah. But yeah, I I think we're taught this, and I don't think I think it is conveniently patriarchal that we absorb these messages. And that, you know, we've talked about this before, but the stupid dub chocolate commercial where it's like I'm taking a moment to have this piece of chocolate, and it's you know, it's supposed to be like my moment of pleasure and a break, and and that's enough for me. You know, it's like no, I mean, I want a life, actually, honestly, that has more pleasure and meaning in it and less work and productivity. Yes. Now some of my work is very meaningful, so that helps. But but at the same time, like the the busy work behind the meaningful part, I want less of that.

unknown 15:59

Yeah.

Meaning Versus Pleasure

Linda 16:00

And we don't have to apologize for that, you know. It's like, but I think again, it's like you're you were saying earlier that it's seen as being very frivolous rather than as this like life source, like this, it's like tapping into the well of the joy and the vitality of what it means to be alive. Yeah, yeah. And I know what the other the other word, I oh, I want to hear it. No, go ahead. No, I want to hear you immature. That's the other word that I hear lobbed around a lot, that it's immature. A mature person sets aside all of that and gets to work. Of course. Basically.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah.

Nature, Presence, And Quiet Joy

Linda 16:39

Yeah. It's oh well, I was thinking too, this was based on a conversation that I've had, you know, and I had with a friend a couple days ago, and I feel like we've kind of spoken about this on the podcast too. And as, you know, we're getting up into perimenopause, menopause, there's so many things that we're taught that we need to be doing as women, all the supplements that we should be taking, all the practices that we need to be doing, the sheer amount of protein that we need to be eating, you know, all this like never-ending stuff. But nowhere in that is it like live a life that you enjoy, like live a life that is pleasurable and meaningful to you. Because I also think that it kind of matches with consumerism. It's like if you don't have that source of pleasure, you know, like natural sources of pleasure, like being, you know, getting to go outside and enjoy nature or whatever that is for you. Living in the sun, even when it's been too cold, when the sun comes in, I like that. We have a chair right next to the window over there. I go sit in the sun and just like a cat just sit in the sun, yes. Like a cat that just finds like that one beam of sunlight that's like, oh yes, here I am. Exactly. Like, power me up. Yes, yes. But then I think we're sold it instead in these the dove chocolate bar commercial ways, right? Of your life is so busy, here's your tiny little moment to yourself of the wine too. The wine is so marketed to women for every occasion. If you're unhappy, have wine. If you're happy, have wine. If your kids are acting up, have wine. If your kids are gone, have wine. Yes. Yeah. And as someone who enjoys wine, I'm like, I love a good glass of wine. But as again, it's like finding that those relationships of where that is coming from a source of pleasure versus where it's not. Like for me, it's the same thing with social media. Like there are times when I jump on Instagram and I'm like looking at the artists that I love and you know, following the woman who lives up in northern Sweden, like just out sledding with her dog. And I'm like, oh, this is so lovely. And then there's a certain point where it ceases to be pleasurable, and then it just becomes the never-ending scroll. Yes. And that for me is it's like when consciousness leaves the building. Yes. In some ways, right? Like that's when pleasure ceases, and it's like, oh, now it's just an addiction or something. You know, it's like now I'm just I'm not here anymore. I think that's a really important point because for me, and I haven't really thought about this a lot, except for just very recently, that pleasure and presence go hand in hand. And I never actually really thought about it until very recently. And I don't even know why it came up, but the times when I'm being mindless that in the past I think I've thought were pleasurable, like mindlessly eating a bag of potato chips. Really, it isn't pleasurable. It's it's somebody has to be there to have the pleasure.

unknown 19:33

Yes.

Consumerism And The “Tiny Treat” Trap

Linda 19:34

That's it, you know. Yes, that. Yes. And I think that we, it's, but I think that piece around our fear of pleasure, our lack of embodiment, our lack of trust in the body, all of these things. It's again like somebody's got to be home in order for the pleasure to land, in order to feel how wonderful it is after like on a cold winter day to go find a sunny spot. And I think that animals like the cats and the dogs, they have a wonderful way of modeling that for us because they're just so present and they're so in their bodies, and there's no moral split between you know who they are and what they enjoy. They're just like, oh, this feels good. I'm gonna go lay over here. It's babies and toddlers are the same way. It's like their lives are all about pleasure. If they're not happy, you know about it. And you know, but when they're happy, it's great. And they do, they absolutely seek pleasure. If you tickle some a toddler's tummy and they like it, they're gonna want you to keep tickling and they're gonna let you know. It's you know, it's like because they're they're what they're not like thinking about their future or their past, they're very present. Yes, yeah. I'm also intrigued. Another idea that like I've been kind of exploring, which before I was exploring in terms of nourishment, but now I'm I'm beginning to look at it also in terms of pleasure. Because I think we tend to think of it as like sensual pleasure, at least for me, I will say I tend to think of it as sensual pleasure, like touch, taste, smell, you know, all of those pieces. And then I'm also like, okay, but what about these other aspects of me that aren't just that aren't that, you know, like what brings my mind pleasure? What brings my heart pleasure? What brings my soul pleasure? You know, and sometimes they interweave, but having these conversations, things that are like, I never thought about it this way. You know, when we have these moments together, that brings my mind tremendous pleasure. Because I'm like, bing, something, it's like a new something has come online or litten up or lit up. And you're like, oh, that that's immensely pleasurable. That isn't necessarily a sensual pleasure, right? But it's still pleasure. Absolutely. Connecting with friends, whether in person or over the phone or over Zoom, that brings my soul a lot of place, especially when we're having a a real conversation, you know. Like when there was time to really explore. I had a conversation with a friend. We talk usually once a year on our birthdays. Our birthdays are right next to each other. And so we just talked. And it was like two hours and two and a half hours, two hours and 45 minutes. And we got into a lot of conversation about like you know, we did the catch-up thing, but then we got into like beliefs we have and how we're thinking about different things now. And you know, it's just so I love those conversations that are really meandery that and they make me I walk away feeling like I know a person I've known a long time even better. Like I love those, and that yeah, so much pleasure. And I sat in the sun while I was doing it. Double! You got the double pleasure, all the heart, the body, the the soul, the spirit, the whole, the whole engelada. Yeah, and uh and I happen to know that he loves long conversations too, so it's just really fun to to do that. What about for you? What are what are other examples for you of that? I mean, I think that's those are great, those are great examples, you know, having like yeah, a good conversation with a friend. Like I feel like my soul when I see something beautiful, like my heart when I witness immense kindness or humanity, yeah, you know, in someone else, whether and it can that could be on a screen, that could be in a story, that could be where, you know, wherever it happens, and usually it's like I know because I'm easily moved to tears. Me too. I'll be moved to tears by that. And there's something so pleasurable about that. Um, there are certain feelings that I find fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I was just thinking of the longing, the longing. Linda loves longing.

Linda 23:37

Such a weirdo.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

I love her, but she's a weirdo.

When Pleasure Ends And Numbing Begins

Presence As The Gateway To Real Pleasure

Mind, Heart, Soul: Beyond The Senses

Linda 23:39

I love logging. I'm a hopeless romantic. What can I say? Um, there's just something I find that immediate, like I find that really pleasurable. I actually find sadness oftentimes pleasurable. Like to me, there's a pleasure in feeling that like just feeling emotion a lot of times. There's a a pleasure, even if it's not necessarily the quote unquote just like the happy, excited emotions. Um but it's just leading me, like this whole conversation is starting to lead me into this question of like what would happen if I took if like as an experiment, it was like a pleasure-guided life. And it feels related to our podcast topic a few, like I think it was last season on erotic decision making. Cause I think those two things are very related. And you know, it there's like certain things, it like brings up a lot of fear still for me. Because I think there is still this like, but how will I get the things done that I'm supposed to be getting done that do not bring me pleasure? You know, like there's yeah, all of the it's a great way to kind of stir the pot and see what's stuck at the bottom that maybe I don't want to see that's down there. But like, yeah, what what is a pleasure-guided life? What does that look like? What is what would that mean if more women took on a truly pleasure-guided life? I'd love to find out. I would too. Yeah, I really would love to find out. I it feels like, well, first of all, it's so anti-patriarchal. I know that that part lights me up immediately. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, I just love the thought of it. Of, you know, and and I think too, like I think about this. I know. So so Linda loves longing. I love things like business model. Um, I get a lot of pleasure from talking about really successful business models. So I think it's it's it's possible to also bring pleasure into things like work, like to look at the parts that bring you pleasure and focus on those and let go of some of the things that don't. So it's not all hedonistic or you know, like that's not what we're talking about with like a pleasure guided. Is that the word you used? Pleasure guided. Yeah, pleasure guided pleasure-led life even. Yeah. So so I mean, part of me is kind of like, huh. You know, I think I think it could be a doable thing that wouldn't necessarily like you wouldn't necessarily come into a woman's life, observe her for a day, and know that that's what she was doing. Yeah. Unless you knew her very well. Yeah. But I feel like it would be one of those things, it's like that's that quote that is grossly overquoted, but it's like, stop asking what the world needs and ask, you know, what brings makes you come to life, because what the world needs is more people who are come have come to life are really alive. And I feel like it's that, like living a pleasure-led life is this sense of, you know, like you were saying, like I love that about you, that you get pleasure from like a really successful business model. Yeah. Cause I'm like, you know, like that's not where my pleasure is. But there is this, like, that's the thing that lights us up. And I think what you were saying too is that it's not, I I realized this before because there was a time where I'd be like, Oh, I I'm not reading a lot of um, there was a time where I read very few fiction books. But I was like, I derive great pleasure from learning new things. Same. I hardly read any fiction lately. And I want to again keep wanting to get back to it, but I guess same. I love reading nonfiction. It's and I love them both. I love them both. They're both me too. It's just so it's not this neat division of like, well, this is for for work and you know, whatever, productivity and bettering myself or whatever, and then this is for the the pleasure reading. And I think again, that's that's going to what you were saying earlier, you you wouldn't know that from necessarily from the outside in. And I think that's one of the things that I comes up a lot too, is that to come back to to food, because I think that's one of the things that we see that women are so like judged on oftentimes, food, body, all that stuff. You know, it's like if, for example, you don't actually want dessert, or like Laura doesn't really like chocolate. Right. And so if I were to see her say no, thank you to a chop piece of chocolate, somebody would look at that very easily and be like, oh, you're being so good. Yeah. And it's like, it's just not in my pleasure to have the chocolate, right? It's like, it's not me being like, I'm gonna be good and say no, but that's from the outside, that's what we've been taught. Yeah. And so it really is this getting to know ourselves and yeah, what lights us up? What is what are those things that also just I think make us feel more like ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

Linda 28:46

And what we're really good at. Like there's oftentimes like the things that light us up, we're also like those are the gifts that we have to offer to the world. Yeah. It's true. It's true. And I mean, I don't even want to say it, but it's true that in that way, pleasure can be productive, right? But I don't want to, in a way, I don't want to say that because I don't want anyone to think, oh, then it's okay. Yeah. Because it's okay if it's not productive.

unknown 29:14

Yeah.

Linda 29:16

It's like my study of leisure that I fell into a few a few years ago. I went into a deep, deep rabbit hole on leisure.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Stacks of books.

Pleasure-Guided Life And Its Fears

Linda 29:25

That's that's how you learn about leisure, ladies and gentlemen. As you make a study out of it and you read for hours every day and you chart everything. That's how I'd like to do it. I didn't chart anything, but I did enjoy the books. Um But yeah, it's I I hear you. I because I think it's such a common thing that we do, that whatever it is, we justify it because, oh, but it'll actually make you more productive. It's like, oh, if you rest, it'll make you more productive. It's like we're still serving the same master. And so what I'm hearing you is like, I don't even want to bring that in because I don't want it to become um absolved or like start to be absorbed in that. Yes. And we and we're gonna wrap up, but the I I have to say, I do love that we had this whole conversation about pleasure and we didn't mention sex once.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah.

Linda 30:17

Because I think that's the other thing that happens. You hear the word pleasure, and a lot of times people immediately think about sex.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah.

Linda 30:23

And there's so much more to pleasure. I mean, I happen to love that kind of pleasure, but that's one, that's one aspect. Sexual pleasure, that is, yeah, one aspect of it that I think is also as you know, the seven deadly sins is oftentimes uh only allowed women in very specific circumstances to take pleasure from it. But yes, I would love to have a whole nother conversation just about that. Um but I do love that we didn't talk about it ahead of time. We didn't say we're gonna talk about this without talking about sex, we just had this whole conversation without it coming up. Um, and that stands out to me. And I really love it because I think it's so important for us to recognize and remind ourselves that there are other forms of pleasure that that may be more in our control. Like, you know, sitting in the sunshine on a nice day is easily achieved. If if you want to have sexual pleasure with another person, then it involves their consent and their availability. Yeah. And it's just like those are the daily moments. Like we're not gonna be having sex all day, every day. But like going and sitting in the sun, that that can that can happen more frequently depending on where you live. Um but you know, it's it's those moments like filling the pleasure well on a moment by moment, day-by-day basis.

unknown 31:43

Yes.

Linda 31:44

And I think that that to me feels like a very juicy experiment. Yeah, and I think paying attention to what that is for you. Like there may be nothing that we've said that would be on your pleasure list, but what is? I we'd love to hear. Yeah, we'd love to know. We'd love to know. Yes. All right. Well, on that note, I guess we'll we'll wrap up this pleasurable conversation. Yeah, go out and be pleasured. Yeah. That was a weird way to say it. Until next time, please report back. Until next time.