Rejection, Reinvention And Taking Back Your Career

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Adam Garland is back on The Insider Diary for episode 116. He's a UK-based session hairstylist who spent five years as the face of global brand Authentic Beauty Concept. These days he's building his own path: mentoring other artists, shooting his own images, and working with heritage beauty brands he actually believes in. His first episode with us got such a good response we're turning this into a monthly chat.

This episode was sparked by a listener question from Australia about brand loyalty, so we went deep on trust, rejection, and how to stop taking it personally when a client doesn't rebook you.

What we covered:

• A listener's question about brand loyalty: a client took a whole team interstate for a shoot and left the makeup artist behind
• Why a first option is never a confirmed booking, especially during fashion week
• The idea of "reducing uncertainty": clients don't book the best artist, they book the one they know won't cause complications
• Vanessa's own story about brand loyalty, and never getting booked again
• Why rejection in this industry is rarely personal, even when it feels like it
• The Guido example: why a top hairstylist still gets ticked for a job before the shoot even starts
• Working from your own essence instead of chasing what you think will get seen
• Hairstylists and makeup artists building their own image worlds instead of waiting on brands: Mustafa Yanas, Joey George, Benjamin Mueller and Anataka Hashi
• Adam's own move into photography, shooting his own models at Workroom Studios in Limehouse, London, with his mentee Zoran
• Why heritage brands hit different: Isles Formula, Keune and Gisou, and what makes their stories genuine
• Why asking for help is harder than it should be, for both of us

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hi and welcome to the makeup industry. I'm your host, Anna Funny, Makeup Artist, Hater Science, Educator, and all I'm being computer. If you ever feel lost or learning in your makeup career, this podcast is for you. I'm here to interview makeup artists and other industry professionals to give guidance and be the mentor I needed early in my career. With a new episode every Tuesday, don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss a trick. And if you like what you hear, please rate and leave a comment. I hope you enjoy. Hi Adam.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Good morning from the UK.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I've got the fabulous Adam Garland back again. Adam, your podcast was so well received. Everyone wants to be your best mate. So can you blame them, really? So thanks for coming.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

No, thank you for inviting me back. No, thank you for inviting me back. And yeah, lots of love and respect to all of your followers and everybody who engaged. It was really touching and I had a lot of fun. I'm I'm on the spot now. I can't really remember where we went. We went everywhere, from what I remember. Yeah, we talked about a lot, but But you really looked after me and I felt really good and I'm really grateful to be back here again today.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, well that was such a great episode. So we're hoping we're planning actually on doing a monthly little chat on talking about whatever topics people really ask for. And today we're gonna talk about some brand loyalty.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

One of my one of the one of the listeners in Australia uh sent a question in about brand loyalty. And you know, she's worked she works with good clients who will sometimes will well one client in particular who will oftentimes uh work around her schedule to get her on the chute. And then she's you know had another situation where clients took a whole team into state and didn't take the makeup artist, and yeah, she felt a bit cut by that. And I can understand why she felt cut by that, but um I mean I just sort of think it all comes down to the bottom line, right? To finances. So what's your take on that one?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I think if I was gonna if that person had come to me, I would say, first of all, you have to detach from your emotional response, which is ext and I'm I'm not saying it's easy. I've gone through addiction, and that was would have been part of what fed the addictive beast, but it's generally it is never personal. And if it is personal, then you shouldn't be there anyway. So, and that's that's alright for you to someone to say, Oh yeah, it's alright for you to say that, but this is my livelihood, this I get it, but that's you can't change anything by staying in the past. What we can do is we can sort of explore how the business works, and you've already nailed it on the head, budgets, and why these things may happen. But I will even as I'm saying this right now, I'm encouraged to go, yeah, of course, this is the point what we're gonna talk about today. But move on, Adam, move on, move on and make yourself impossible to not be the number one choice.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, I can I completely agree with what you're saying. And as you say, that is easier, you know, easier said than done at times, like to move on. I've actually got a experience that happened to me probably over seven years ago. I used to work with this brand. It was probably one of the first brands that I ever worked with. And I even did the brand owner's hair and makeup for her for their wedding. And I have, I did, she was, she was fairly new running this brand, and I turned up one day to do the model for a shoot, and something happened with the agency. The model wasn't told about the shoot, and the model didn't show up. She said to me, It's fine, you can charge me for this. You know, it's just how it is. Went back the next day, did the did the shoot, and I didn't charge her for that for that day because I felt, I suppose, loyal to her. Or I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I know, I'm cringing, I'm cringing as you're saying it.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, I know. And I know that now. And then went on to do, I think, a few more shoots, did one shoot, and then all of a sudden, she stopped booking me. And this cut me, it really cut me for a long time. And she'd still speak to me on social media. It was during COVID time, asking, like asking me questions about if we're allowed to shoot and stuff. And I thought she was gonna book me again. She didn't. She wasn't, she didn't, she had no intention of booking me again. And the one thing that that has taught me is that I can't rely on clients to book me. I have to always be meeting new people, networking, creating my own work, maybe moving up in the level of you know, shoots that I do. But I will say that's taken me a long time to to feel that way. I will it that cut me for years. I had to un I had to mute her. I couldn't, I couldn't keep watching her shoots pop up on my page. It cut me.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

I mean, I'll say from my own experience, you know, I I echo that that would have been a daily thing for me, not your exact situation, but like getting an option and then not getting confirmed and never getting an answer. I think that's also really important. And the message I've been sharing with people recently is a first option is not confirmation. So a first option is only a first option. And because Fashion Week is coming up, and when this comes out, people will probably be already at Fashion Week or going. I'm I'm it's I'm bringing people's awareness to the fact that a first option is not confirmation. So if you're traveling to London, New York, Milan, Paris on first options, you need to be prepared to not get any work whatsoever. And having that resilience and mindset from the get-go, and I I'm not saying do fashion week or don't do fashion week, but what I could say you could learn from this experience is you're gonna face rejection and rejection without knowing why, all the way through this industry. And if you can understand that from the day dot and find a coping strategy, I mean there's so many different ways. I I just wish that I had listened to somebody that that used to say to me, Adam, it's not personal. Yeah, but why? I've worked with that photographer for so long. Adam, it's not personal. And you know, we we have those demons, don't we? We'd be there thinking, Did did I did I say something wrong to the producer? Did I make a joke in the hair and makeup chair that was racist? Did I make a joke that was like sexist? Did I say something that was not and you just if you allow that voice, and for someone like myself who's worked through sort of addiction and other issues, I that would feed that beast.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

In the in the run-up to you to coming and joining you today, I I I did a little bit of research and I thought I looked at I like to use AI and I like to research not just the immediate question. So what I do with my tools, and I'm happy to share this with you and your followers, and I think it's really a great way to it's not therapy, but it's maybe to understand the psychology of how things work. So I want to look at why a client books somebody and why a client may not re-book, and that's not restricted just to fashion, this is just how the psychology works. And what I found out was, and it sort of fed into what I already knew or assumed, is a client is booking your ability to reduce uncertainty. I was like, what the fuck does that mean? What that means is they're not booking the best creative, because the best creative, that's only based on what you either perceive someone says about you or what you perceive about yourself. It's good to have confidence, it's important to know your worth. Self-worth is really important. But if you think you should be booked because you are the best, and they've booked you so many times, and you're the best, you're gonna come unstuck. What they book is uncertaint is the reduced uncertainty. So they know when they come to Charlie that Charlie does the job without even that that's that's a given. They know that there's gonna be no complications on that day. They know that there's not gonna be rudeness, or it could be something that's not even perceived as a negative. It could be that you've always had an assistant, but this one job, the budget just doesn't go there. Producers are not magicians, kind of. But the budget just does not allow for an assistant. Now, if you've had an assistant 10 times, and on the 11th time, even if you're friends with this producer, think about the psychology here. That producer may be so embarrassed not to say to you, Adam, we can't have your assistant. They may they because we're all human at the end of the day, yeah? We we're not we're not psychological walking beings that can all know how each other communicate. So your producer, your production assistant, we're gonna get the real me. The lights got out. Your producer or the production assistant may be embarrassed to ask, and so may just think it's easier for them to go with somebody else that just makes the whole process easier for them because they're going through something. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, completely. All of it, like like all of this rejection stuff that we're talking about, like you're a hairdresser, I was a hairdresser, people do bridal clients, people might do private clients. People are it are allowed to go elsewhere. Like that's that's just the beauty of it.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

And you can go elsewhere, exactly. And let's think about that. As you said that, that's the first thing that came to mind is like they can go elsewhere, but guess what? You can too. True. That gives you autonomy to build your brand, build your community, build your network beyond being stuck with one client. Because let's just let's just run another process. The client, the client loves you, the client absolutely loves you, the stylist loves you, but the photographer comes in, and we know photographers can sometimes be divous. And I know this from I know from what I've been told and know how this works. If the photographer's throwing their weight around and they want a whole new team and they want to try this, and the client's like, mmm, but the client, remember the client sometimes with these photographers, it's bowing down. Oh my god, I've got this person. They're like, Yeah. They'll do whatever that person's gonna say. So if the photographer goes, I need to work with my hairstylist, I don't want any of this team. The client may push back and go, Whoa, that's a bit too much, but we'll give you one or two of those things. Because it's not, guess what? It's not all about you, it's not all about me, it's about the collaboration. So, what I'm getting at, I could sit here and list these scenarios off that there are so many potential scenarios as to why you don't get rebooked, even if it's a long-standing relationship, but you have to find a way to move on instantly. Yeah, it's it has to be instant. I I just realized I didn't really explain what I was talking about, AI, so I'm just gonna jump back to there. So, what I was what I was saying, when you said about the brief today about trust in the industry, I didn't just go to my tools and look at trust in the fashion industry. I looked at trust in the fashion industry. Then I did another round of research with trust how client relationship. And then because I've been working with these tools for about six months now, it kind of knows what I'm looking for anyway. But you can go, you can basically use your tools to become like the master of marketing, client connection, and all those things. So if you ask it to you go on that little journey, I did three sweeps, and then you get quite big documents, and then what I do is I get it to I start to talk to it and ask it to ask me questions because you'll bring with AI, you're bringing your experience to it. So I'm not going, I'm I've got a podcast with Vanessa Barney, and I want you to tell me all about client trust, and then I've got them on the side here, and I'm like, no, no. No, it doesn't work like that. I mean, um and no shade if that's what people do.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

My point is, you can actually, I learned a lot the last 24 hours doing my preparation. Even that reducing uncertainty. It's really interesting. And I learned that through an AI tool. Just re re-evaluating how you think.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

So I'm just thinking about this whole like reducing uncertainty thing. I guess that's maybe why people go to agencies to book the hair and makeup artists, because that in their eyes reduces uncertainty because I don't know, the people have done whatever they've done, or you know, whatever agency it, whatever whatever agency they are with, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:03

And they've built the relation, the agent will have built the relationship, the artist will have established themselves. So let's look at Guido, for example. In my opinion, still the top working hairdresser in the world, has been there for decades, and he's at what I believe the top agency art and commerce. And he's still there doing that. And he built trust, he had self-worth, and he built trust in a time where we didn't have any noise of social media. So there's kind of like lots of components here, but he was able to establish himself, and I'm gonna come back to how you do that currently, because it's not like oh, you need a teleportation device to get back to the 90s to be successful, we can't do that, but he built trust and he built community, and you know that was in a fantastic time, and he's still there. So not because Guido's the best hairdresser that he gets booked, it's because when Prada is spending one to two million pounds on a show, and they just it's yes, he's established a long relationship. However, they know that the minute they tick hair, Guido goes, Yes, I'm available. They go tick, they don't have to think about hair again until the test, a few references. They they don't they don't have to worry about he's he needs about five more assistants, or they just know there's certainty, there is a big tick and it's done. So that is what you need to create that kind of mindset about certainty in all areas. Just going back to the Prada reference as well, there'll be jobs that you won't get booked for, even if you're Guido, because a Prada client, he does. I mean, Guido does Zara, but let's just use foo hoo. I don't know if you have that in Australia or uh yeah, you know, whatever the brand is, that the he just they don't need that skill set, so they go and look for something else. So, but by establishing himself as this person of certainty, he he can cherry what he does.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

That's such a good way of explaining it though, with uh the certainty, because I think I think then when you're building your folio or you're building your career, if you see it as what you're doing, as building certainty, I think that can make a lot more sense in your mind, if that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Instead of thinking I'm the best, yeah, you think I have so I am reducing certainty. I am the cert I am certain that when I go in there, I deliver. It doesn't matter whether they book me or not, because someone's gonna keep booking me because I bring that. So it means that you you look at all elements in the way you work. Now you don't become neurotic and think, oh, I can't ask for assistant, I can't ask for a car. You just you just work from this place of self-worth, and that's why I just go back to like it nothing can nothing can be done about living in the past. I'm gonna bring it on to me and move away from your quest, your your your uh listener. So I was the face of a global company, authentic beauty concept. I had a five-year con five-year run with them, and it it ended, and it didn't end in the best way, but it was the best thing that ever happened for me. But at the moment when it ha when it finished, I didn't think like that. No, you could not pay me you could pay me enough, but you couldn't give me what they gave me, which was a significant amount of money. You couldn't give me that now to walk back into that way of being. Not okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

But I needed to take a year to understand that. And I needed to look at myself, think about where I was gonna position myself. I needed to be really honest with myself about the the darker parts of me. So now I feel like I'm in a beautiful position of freedom, creativity that changes all the time. I'm talking to people like yourself, we're building a community. And all of a sudden, I realize that I'm not waiting for a producer to book me. I'm not waiting for a client to book me. All I all I need to do is WhatsApp, Vanessa, have a chat, get to know someone. I'm not bothered that you've got a c you've got another guest coming on your podcast. I can't wait to see your podcast. I'm really, I'm like, oh, that one's really interesting. What I'm saying is you don't if you get so stuck in it, sometimes you miss the world beyond it. And I know we've we we all we all do that. I I was so in it. I was so in it, I was like like this, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I've been so in it. And I don't know, like, how do you I mean I don't know how I've come out the other side now. I think it's just time and just learning, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

I feel I feel like pulling it back to topic with regards to trust and how things happen. I feel like there were there was times when there was less people and there was more creativity over a longer period of time. It took longer for the shows to be revealed in the magazines. It was less it was less consumer-driven, even though there was a lot of capitalism in the 80s and the way that the way that the woman was perceived, and that that kind of drive, that that fantasy element, which is great that now it's accessible to so many people. But I feel like the less people, the long longer waiting periods. So people establish trust and their self-worth within a team, and each element of the team would then really respect each other and really they knew that Pat Pat McGrath would always deliver. They knew that Stephen, you know, Stephen Myselle built that network. It again goes back to that and reduced uncertainty. He just didn't have to worry, but at the same time, he also knew that there was a place to expand, there was a freedom, there was no fear. I think if you look at editorial and even advertising work, even advertising work, that's that's because we I feel like it's boring. Everything's boring. Editorial's really boring over here, anyway. You you do, you know, editorial to when I started 15 years ago was hair, was makeup, was fantasy and storytelling. And I've just seen it just come to a girl stood in a nice clothes. Nothing wrong with that, but I think it really lacks that creativity. So then you've got all these people trying to stand out, doing like random stuff, but not really working from like what is it you really like. Yeah, and so now I'm gonna go back and explain what I said about like you can't teleport back to the 90s, but what you can do is create a portfolio, yeah, which is you, which makes you impossible not to book. You work from here, you work from your essence, your heart, you work without all the noise of if I do that image, because this is this is my was my process.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

If I do that image, then that person will see it, and hopefully I'll get there. And then if I get there, it doesn't work like that as much as it used to. And so I'm gonna, I I mean, I talk about these people non-stop in my lives. Mustafa Yanaz at Art and Commerce, incredible hairstylist, but look at how much of the Instagram is his own work, and he's at Art and Commerce. Joey George, beautiful, creates his own world, creates his own imagery. Benjamin Mueller at Management and Artist does the same thing. Anatakahashi, makeup artist or art partner, created a world, then they become impossible to ignore.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

So I feel like you obviously we need to make money, so we need to find you need to find a way of meeting art and commerce. And it needs to come from here. And that's that's tricky. That's really tricky.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

I think, yeah, you did speak about that when we did our our last podcast. And I think that's really important. I think I think it is hard though, too, to well, in the sense that you want to put out work so that you get work, right? But then what you're saying is putting out what you what is your taste and what you love. And that's way more fun.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

And also terrifying, like as you said, that the word came fear, because you know, if I said to you right, Vanessa, what do you really, really love?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Hmm. As in hair and makeup wise.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

No, what do you really love about cre like what drives you to be here? Why are we having this conversation now?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I like connection with people. I love people's stories, and I I really like finding out about people. I genuinely like it. I really like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And that gives you that that thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

I just love the conversation. I just like I think you can learn so much from people. And I just think people's I just think people's stories are so interesting. That's why we're gonna hairdressers.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

So that's your passion. How do we how do we turn that into a sustainable income? You know, these are the questions that I would ask a podcast. There you go. You see, it's like, so what are you, you know, what is I'm guessing it's late there. Like we I we're not getting paid to do this today. It's like, what are you willing to invest? And then you start to then you start to go, yeah, I'm doing it. I'm actually doing it. So instead of looking for it, you realize, oh, I'm doing it. I'm actually working from here. I'm working from what I love. The noise of needing to post this for this, we all we all buy into that because we've been conditioned to that now. Yeah. So unless social media completely disappeared, we even if you say to yourself or say to me, I don't do social media for anyone else other than just for myself to show my art, I'd still challenge that because the fact that you're even on social media shows that you've bought into social media, and there's nothing wrong with that. No, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And I think it's scare, it would be scary, but if I said, right, for one year, work from your essence, from your core, and and do what you love. And from here, you may end up becoming a cooking master. You know, and that's the terrifying thing for a lot of us, is that I'll talk from my own experience when I was session styling, fashion week, all in that. If you'd have said to me, do you know what, Adam, in a year's time, you're gonna be sat talking to a lady in Australia and you're gonna be really enjoying yourself, and then you're gonna be going to London to take images of models yourself with someone else doing the hair, I'd have been like, What the fuck? Uh no, you don't, you you clearly haven't done your research. However, sat here today, I'm like, I can't wait. I'm enjoying being here with you. I'm gonna go and colour someone's hair, and then I'm going to London to shoot and work with a hairdresser. So my point is, yeah, sometimes if we hold on and get locked into that thing, we lose ourselves potentially. And then that comes back to like, then are we really showing what somebody who's gonna book us wants to see or hear or feel? I don't know. This is something I've been thinking about recently.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Since our chat, I have I have taken away and applied things that like I have tried to do things from my essence more than just what other people well what I thought other people wanted me to do on a shoot, like especially test shoots, and I've taken my own photos and it was just it was like a bit of an aha moment for me. I need to do some more now, like some more, but and I need to like I'm going to post some of the photos as well. But it was it was great. I really enjoyed it, and I did what I wanted to do, even when a photographer didn't want me to do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

I love that. If you don't Yeah, what I really love about what I see on your social media, I love your tutorials. I love how the simplicity, but they're done, if you don't mind me saying, beautifully. The hair is beautiful, the proportions, in my opinion, are beautiful. And I think if I was working with you, I'd be like, this podcast and those things, and don't worry about the images. Images, you know, they don't do what they used to do. People are gonna engage with your videos. I've got a guy here in the UK who we've you know, we follow each other and we chatted, and he has a way of working with wigs and he does mullets and he works with synthetic wigs. And I I've had a few chats with him, but if I was gonna ask a question about a synthetic wig, even with my ego and my knowledge, I would go straight to him because I've seen those videos of him doing and he's a character as well. He's really he's he's it names Neil Lucas, Wigs by Neil Lucas, and he's really funny, yeah. And I I mean I said, you know, he's like, I want to do this, I want to do this. I said, babe, I love watching your tutorials on wigs, and but that's kind of a saturated thing. But your USP, from my opinion, is your humour, your genuine, you're genuine when you do that as well. It's not like me trying to be funny in the mo, he's like very real. And I said, and I love what you do with the wigs. So if I had a question about a synthetic wig, you're in my mind. Is he the best? That's that's just that we know that the best is the most ridiculous thing to say to yourself. Yeah, so so again, it's like he's working from what I perceive as his essence, and yeah, the same like with your podcast, I see the passion, and when I see your tutorials, I'm like, you know, you're good at that. So it's like, why are we then gonna dilute it with chasing something that we need someone else to see? If we've got these foundations, let's build, let's just build, build, build. But that's my little outside observation.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Good point. Good point. Sometimes you need an outside observation.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I think we don't don't like asking for help, do we, as humans? As we just don't like asking for help. We see it as a weakness.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

I'm terrible at asking for help.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

I'm even I'm even terrible at accepting help. People try and help me carry my bags to my car, and I want them to help me, but I can't say yes. It's weird. Why?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, we feel that's a sense of maybe guilt, and it's like, yeah, that taps into all sorts of other things.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

That's another that's that's a therapy session, Vanessa. Not that.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

That's a therapy session, and we're not doing that today. Talking of which, talking of which, I I have a phenomenal therapist called Ella McChrystal. If you want to go and watch her, she does she's got a couple of hundred thousand followers, and she's phenomenal. Ella McChrystal on all social media accounts. Had a session last night, and we're kind of we've been working together for years, and we're kind of moving into this sort of business coaching, but with therapy, it's brilliant. She's phenomenal. And last night, I wrote it down as she said it, which really stuck with me was the more you learn, the more you gain knowledge of something, the more you realize how much you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Loved that. I thought that was brilliant. It was really humbling and really grounding. And we were talking about like as I'm building my archive, I'm building community, and and it's like I'm I'm saying to her, like, things this is the year of the fire horse this year. So things for me have been going like, I've been I've gone like that four months, and it's like phenomenal. And she just was like, it was a little bit of grounding, I guess is what I took from it. Was and it was it was a very beautiful message. The more you learn and the more you think you know, the more you realize you don't.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah, wow. But even I think the more you do our our job, like like the more you do hair and makeup, the more you try and do things, the more you realise you don't know. Like, there's just so many different ways to do things.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

But when you get to a place, it's balanced, isn't it? It's like refinement. And if I was gonna do a detail, I know I can split this curl up, probably not on me now. I can create a little bit of movement and a little there you go, and I can put that on the forehead, and I know from what suits I worked on, they go, We love that. I know I can do that. And I became a bit not a one-trick pony, but I got up until the pandemic, I got booked again and again and again because I guess certainty they knew Adam could find that moment which took it from one thing to something else.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

I got a bit stale because I got a bit lazy and I got a bit complacent, and I didn't nourish the essence, the thing. And I almost got a bit cocky. I can walk on set and they're gonna, you know, so if I look back at myself now and if I was gonna talk to that Adam and say kind of like the advice I give to people now, I'd be like, Yeah, you're good at that. Great. There are better people, there are worse people, but we don't do that. So come down a notch. What else can you do, Adam? Well, you know, I do fashion week and I've got a brand. No, no, show me. Well, I'm waiting for the right photographer before I do no, show me. Well, how? I don't have a photographer. Well, pick up a camera, get a doll head, get a model. You live in London. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I but I work three days a week and so you've still got five the No I can't do maths four days off. My point is we can apply ourselves wherever to get to that point of being certain in ourselves and being impossible to ignore. But it's not simply going and picking up a doll head one day, doing something that you're really proud of and thinking, oh well, I did what you said and it didn't work. It's like a 12-month minimum plan, is what I'm sharing with my mentees. It's like, yeah, if you're working full time or you're working, if you're working full-time and you're making money, but you're coming to me and saying, But I want more clients, I want to get rebooked, or I want to be, I want to do something different. I'm gonna say to you, then working full-time, you're lacking something in there. What are you working full-time for? Or what are you busting a nut for? And if you're wanting something else, we have to make a compromise. You either need to reduce your outgoings, drop a day, and invest your time and energy into that day, or you need to work like a motherfucker in the evening. Can I swear on here? Of course. I've done it now. You work really hard. So you give up that Saturday. You give up the Saturday that you normally would, you know, go to the gym, go and get the coffee, go meet, catch up with a few friends. If you're telling me you want something else because you're not happy with what's here, what are you gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah, for sure. I think sometimes, like when you do want to, I don't know, progress in some way, you have to say no to something else to get to where you want to be. If if you're like, you know, even like a job maybe that won't take you there, but then it'll give you more time to pursue that pursue that.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, if it means I don't go to Starbucks five days a week because I need that extra 30 quid, and I and I don't go and I get a pizza on a Tuesday, so there's another quid, and you do the maths, but this is where this is where you've got to get really honest with yourself. And I'm not perfect, by the way. I need my Starbucks.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

But you know, if I was really, if I was really getting honest with myself and saying, well, no, you don't need five Starbucks. And I skipped breakfast, I had breakfast at Starbucks this morning. So if I got really, if I gave myself the advice I'm giving out to people, you know, working out the money, well, what am I I'm working to pay for those things, but those are kind of luxuries. I can make a coffee at home, I can certainly have breakfast at home, and I can invest that money into a wig or a new light or a tripod or something. So it is about what you facing yourself is probably the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

How good did the uh Queen for a Day reel do?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

TG Bedhead, we tagged you a lot and you did not respond. I'm coming for you. You had two accounts with so many comments and likes. We're happy to be the face of it too, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

So happy, so happy.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

It was I can't believe you don't have it in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Well, we did, but you can't get it now. So I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

So if there's any distributors listening, any PRs listening, when Vanessa and I talked about TG, Queen for a Day, Bedhead, this product is used at Fashion Week with all session stylists. Yeah, but it's not just a session product. This is great for salon clients. This is a product that you are not gonna feel in the hair, but can do so much. And this will create texture, this will create volume. Please, Australia, you need to have this product.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

We need it back, and you can use it without getting without getting your hands dirty, which I actually really really love. It's very it doesn't wet the hair too much either, as a moose, I find. Some moose is. It really is everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

It's everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You're gonna need to bring a suitcase when you come home.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I know, I know. There's a chance I'll be heading over to to interview Adam in person. We'll do a series.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Amazing, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

So we're manifesting that it does happen. It is going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

It is going to happen sometime this year.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Now, what other pro have you got any other products you're loving at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

So I feel like I'm levitating transitioning to Australia somehow because I'm gonna be talking about Isles' formula. Now, I haven't actually used the products myself yet, but what I was gonna talk about was Wendy Isles, who is an Australian session stylist. I'm just gonna show you the book as I talk. So this is Wendy Isles and her work, and I'm just gonna get a picture of the icon. She wrote me a lovely message. I ended I ended up interviewing her, which I didn't expect. I she gave me so this is Wendy.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Okay, she's got beautiful locks, hasn't she?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Beautiful, beautiful, kind woman. So what was fascinating was I've known about Wendy right from the beginning of my session career. She was working with Heidi Klume, yeah, Kira Knightley, but she was also doing like you know, phenomenal, beautiful work. And I I can't she followed me, and I was like, oh my god, Wendy Isles has followed me. And we chatted, and she mentioned the book, and she mentioned about her product, Isle's formula. So, anyway, long story short, I ended up having an interview, I interviewed her without realising I was interviewing her, and she's so cool, and we had such a similar beginning.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Mm-hmm. Look at my hair.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

We had such a beginning, similar entry into the way we worked. So she was brought up in Australia on a poppy, I think it was a poppy opium farm, and um she was always taught about the formulas about how things worked. She was fascinated by that. She then became a hairstylist, and then she got on a boat for six weeks, I think, to come to the UK. Took that long to come on the boat to to get here to work at Vidal Sassoon. So she kind of left home, and that was my journey also. I it only took me two hours.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Not six weeks. Similar.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

So you know, and so she she took she got that education, she became familiar with London, and then came back to Australia, set up her own salon, had this massive salon, phenomenal career. And then I think she went to New York. This is where I may need to just check my notes. But she she she ended up in New York, did end up in New York, started doing photo shoots and took off. She always she tell she talked when she talked to me, she talked about quaffing the hair. And the way she spoke, it was just it was effortless. And a lot of her work. Let's see if we can though these images are 25 years old. A lot of these images, yet they still look so modern and timeless. Let's see what we've got. Are we gonna try a booby? Are we allowed to do that?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

So hold on, they're 25 years old.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yes. And let me find she talks about not using hairspray, which I'm like, right. She was booked non-stop for hair campaigns.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Because she was able to create this feeling in hair.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

And she was doing it with her own formulas. So she was using her own products, creating these products based on what she'd learnt in the poppy fields, and she was bringing that to her editorial work, and she just got booked again. I think I just want to find the hair campaign. Oh, here you go. She's she's booked time and time and time again for like just incredible with no hairspray. And I'm like, right, okay, go.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

What her hair looks like in the front picture.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Yes. So it looks beautiful. So we had this incredible conversation, and which led to her very kindly sending me the Isles formula.

unknown 37:40

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

We've got a I've not, as I said, I this is a root-like rinse. I've not used them, so I'm not gonna say anything about them. But what I can tell you about the products is this is Wendy's creation, this is her love. And when I spoke to Wendy, what was really interesting was she's a heritage brand. And what stuck in my head, especially coming away from a corporate brand myself, all she talked about, well, not all she talked about, but it was her essence. It taps into everything we've talked about. And I don't mean essence as in here. She grew up near the poppy fields. Her she understood how to combine products. This has taken a lifetime to do. She created these products herself. She had investment, and when I say investment, she had some of her celebrity clients said, Look, we will support you, we'll buy you like a hundred bottles of shampoo. I can't remember the exact amount, but you know, minimal investment, but they believed in her and they believed in the product. And that was 15, 20 years ago, you know. This has been in the kindest way, or I mean, from what I was gonna say, is not a slow burn, but she's never been trying to fill a spreadsheet. She's never sold this based on what numbers are in a spreadsheet. She's based this on heritage, she's based this on what she knows, what she does, and what her legacy of hair artistry has shown in an incredible career. She takes the boxes with celebrities, advertising, editorial, hair campaigns. So just having that conversation with Wendy Isles, I mean, I I shamelessly cried at the end. I was like, thank you so much. Because to me, she's an icon. And just to be able to talk about products in a way that wasn't like you need to sell it like this and sell it like this, which is what I've been, you know, it it felt very, very real. And it's a little bit like the kunay products that I told you about last time. You know, this is also a heritage brand. Yeah, this is a gel, by the way. This is great. I love this gel because it's not sticky, but it's rock hard, and a lot of them can be, you know, when you just get it all get shit all over your face. You get muck all over your fingers, and you start getting all that residue and that colour and whatever you say. Well, this doesn't, or it hasn't from my experience. I've got a whole YouTube video of me doing a Julian Dies look with this from Kune.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

The the the the Slickia.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, the graphic. Is that what you used?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I watched that. I think, yeah, yeah, I've watched all of those. I've watched all your YouTube videos.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Thank you. This, yeah, so Kune, what I love Kuna, Kone, it's really hard. They I think it's Kona. They are a heritage brand, I think 104 years. It was built in a family lab and it's still family-owned today. So having connected with two what I would call heritage brands, and having worked with a corporate company, I love the heritage, and it's inspired me to tap back into my essence and work from that place. Look, there's still businesses, multi-million pound businesses. So they're another example of like tapping into yourself.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

You can become wealthy, whatever you want, whatever you want to do, but do it with integrity.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

That felt like a real lecture.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

No, that's I recently went to an event um with for a skincare, yeah, a skincare um brand here in Sydney named Vanessa Megan, and she has perfumes and skincare, and it's all based on really very natural stuff. And she told her story while while we're at the event, and the reason why she created the brand was because her friend was um diagnosed with cancer, and she went with her to the doctor, and they said to her, don't use anything with mineral oil in it. And she thought, Well, mineral oil sounds like it's something that's good for you. So then she Yeah. So then she went down this path of creating products that were good for you, I suppose. And they're all manufactured here in Sydney, and she was amazing, and I loved her. And yeah, I guess that's her essence as well. And it was just so nice to be around that and see it.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

And it feels like, you know, when you're telling me that story, I'm instantly curious. I'm like, okay, this sounds interesting. This doesn't sound, you know, I'm old enough, ugly enough to have sat in so many of those corporate machines throughout my career, watched the slides popping up. Did you know that this comes from here because of this? And it's like, okay, but when it comes to an Isles formula, this has been since Wendy's birth. She's been born into the poppy fields, she's learnt about how certain combinations work, and her clients trusted it enough to invest in her, and now she has a business. Another one that I've been sent, which I absolutely love, is the Gisu. I don't know if you have that in Australia. I feel like it's a good one. So this is this is by a uh founder called Negin, and she is based in Holland.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

And it's this is a milk, so this is a repair mask. I use it all the time because I haven't had a haircut for nearly two years.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

But her brand is also a heritage brand, and it they it's all made with the honey, the bee honey that they have in their honey farms, which she grew up around. So all of a sudden, I've got like three heritage brands, and I feel like I'm creating a heritage atom, and I'm like, this is manifestation. This is like this is what I'm interested in. This is just really Yes, it has meaning. Yeah. And there's just interesting stories to tell, without you know, I'm not gonna sit here and bad mouth a brand, but when I worked for that brand, which was called Authentic Beauty Concept, it they were creating the concept. I mean, I don't know if you have it over there, but I've got one here, so I'll show you. It's this brand. No, great products, lovely, lovely company, but it's owned by Henkel. And before having the experience with heritage brands and people that you know aren't building from a spreadsheet, I saw that I didn't see what my perception of that is. And it's like if you're creating an authentic beauty. Concept and you're bringing in these kind of ideas based on research as opposed to telling me a genuine story, it's just a different way. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I feel like I connect more to brands that have heritage, have a genuine story and a narrative that hasn't been manufactured.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah, absolutely. I agree completely, completely agree. So you're heading to London to do take some photos.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Oh my goodness. So again, if you've seen my lives or you've watched any of my videos, you will know that I am passionate and it really loops into what we're talking about today, which is why I was really excited to do this chat. I'm encouraging all creatives to take control of your own career and do not wait for fashion to give you permission to be creative. Do not wait for fashion to give you permission to be creative. What does that mean? We're all creative, but let's work in a fashion, makeup, hair, styling, photography. Think about that. I I'm gonna talk from my own experience of waiting till I worked with the right photographer to do something because I didn't want to. For example, I wouldn't shoot for L. L-U-K, once you shoot for L U K, you're not gonna shoot for Vogue. This is the hierarchy of fashion.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Even though I probably would I would probably be asked to do that. So and so that's one thinking trap. And then it's like if you do Wonderland, which is an editorial, or Sean over here, but you're not cool. But those allow you to be more creative. So you've got all this noise going on, and so what I did was I froze and I didn't show what I could do.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

And I then I get that internal battle, and it's like, oh, I'm not moving forward because I'm doing my job based on what I think people need to see, based on what I perceive is the way to move forward. Stop. Stop. You can take control of your own career by picking up your phone, getting a little square light, and taking pictures. And you go, oh, I don't want to be a photographer. No, I don't want to be a photographer either. I'm not claiming to be a photographer. Have I invested time and money? Yes. I've gone to an extreme and learned how to use a program called Capture One, which we've probably all seen, by the way. You've probably seen it. Do you know would you know how to go near it? Would you know how to but you could because unlike creativity, which I can't teach you, learning a program, learning how to set this podcast up, learning how to do anything which I call one, two, three, A, B, C, you can do. Not gonna be easy, not easy at all, but you can do that. And we have a thing called the internet and the university of YouTube. So I picked up the camera and I I think I've had an eye even before I worked in fashion. I used to take pictures of things, not claiming to be inspired by a photography or knew nothing about it, but I definitely knew what to do.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Miss creativity and not waiting for permission. So we're all photographers. Yeah. You you have definitely taken a picture on your iPhone.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

So you know how to frame. So you could take a picture of your own work. You have got a light in front of you now. I've got a light in front of me now. So you have knowledge of light. That's before we even go into the level of experience that you have from being onset and things that you will take for granted that you just know intrinsically, feel. You know where the light is coming from. You may not understand how it hits a surface, you may not understand the relation to camera settings, but you know that a light is coming from here. You know that a polyboard here is doing something. You may not know what it's doing today, but very quickly, if I tell you the dark side is going to block out shadows, the white side is going to bounce like you go, oh yeah, of course, I knew that. My point is you have potential to take control of your creative choices without waiting for someone else to say, here's a here's a pull letter. Even for a stylist, it's not just about photography, it's not just about hair and makeup, even for a stylist, you can go to an archive and get pieces that aren't seen. Yes, it's gonna cost money. So drop the coffee.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

So I'm going to London. I'm very excited about this. And another Aussie, by the way. So I've got another Aussie. Yeah, an amazing guy called Zoran. Zoran London and Zoran Mu A. One of my mentees. Yeah. He has his own studio in Limehouse in London called Workroom Studios. And I'm basically helping building, we're exploring what the possibilities are here. And the possibilities are endless. It's a beautiful space. When you come over, you're definitely gonna come and see us.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

And I'm I have relationships with agencies that are model agencies, and we are building. But here's the beauty: I'm not trying to be a photographer, I'm not trying I'm not trying to be anything. So, as much as possible, I'm taking images from my essence, from my core, from whatever it is. And it's really fun. And I'm I'm I've posted, if you look at my Instagram, you'll see a couple of the images that I've actually done. And it's really interesting, the psychology here, which taps into what I was saying earlier. One of them has got 12 likes, one of them has got 40 likes. Well, if you go and look at my reels and you look at how many likes they get, you go, oh.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Have you done the hair on them? Have you taken the photos of them? I've seen the ones you've posted, they look gorgeous. I think I've said there's one in particular I remember seeing.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

So, yes, I have been doing the hair in those. And you know, for me, I watched a Mario Testino documentary because I've been obsessed with photography in a sense of how they work, not the technicality of it. Just been obsessed with photographers. There was one of my one of my bonus points, I think, when I when I started this journey in the industry, I wanted to know everything. Merton Marcus, Patrick Di Marcillia, Helmut Newton. I was obsessed. So I've always been curious about creating a character and always been curious about what that even means and how, even if that's something very simple, it can still be like a nuance that will just change it. So when I when I shoot, I remember this Mario Tostino documentary with Segorney Weaver, and he's like, just darling. And he's just he makes her feel really comfortable. So as I've been building up my experience shooting, I've just been playing around with like how do I get something with the girl? How do I connect the emotion with the girl without trying? And you know I like to talk. I I want to show you two images just to give you an example of what I mean. This is yeah, this was one of the first ones. That's I'll send them and you got them in. So it's very beautiful, and she also guess what? Also from Australia. Of course, lovely. I'm not even joking.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

And then we can drop these into your your uh side use it. And then we've got this one, which was she looks like a completely different girl.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

She does. And she looks completely different.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

And I shot it on the floor, and we chatted, and she, you know, she said she was missing home, missing her boyfriend. They were having a chat while we're in the chair, and and I just I got on the floor and I said, Right, look at the lens. I didn't even look down it. And I said, I want you to imagine that's Leo. We put Christine Aguilera, her, and the music bit that song builds up, and all of a sudden, this dynamic in the room, everyone's like quiet, but she's doing something. I'm getting a sensation now as I'm explaining this because I'm going straight back. That was beautiful. I and I came away from that thinking, that's what I love about creating an image. It's not because that's gonna get seen, not because that's gonna get an editorial, or I'm gonna get paid. It's I created a moment where I can tap back into that sensation. The girl looked completely different, and we created it, gave her depth, and and and since doing that last Friday, I I mean I can't wait to get back to the studio and and play again, and it will be different because it will be a different model. I'll be different. So if you let's let's bring that back to topic. It's like if you hold on, if I try and recreate that moment, no, maybe it will work putting the Christina Aguilera song on. But if you're trying to do something because something worked, great, but you need to have a space to go somewhere else. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Makes complete sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

That goes straight back to the clients, thinking that that client is always gonna book you, and then going, oh fuck, because you haven't got another potential opportunity or plan or structure or idea. Well, I mean, God, please don't sit there worrying about the client that didn't book you.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, yeah. Adam, it's been a pleasure again.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Did I suck the life out of the room? I do apologize. I get quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

No, it was amazing. It was amazing. Okay, and I can't wait for our next one. So we're gonna make it a monthly thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

I would love that. And just thank you once again, Vanessa, and everyone at um the Makeup Insider. It's been really lovely to connect with you. And I was just gonna say to your community, if you don't already follow me, please follow me. I do a weekly newsletter on my website called sessionhair.com. You don't need to pay, you don't need to do anything other than give me your email. And the goal here is not to sell you something, there is no emails coming through, buy this product, buy this product. Can't guarantee that that might not slip into your inbox every now and again. However, what we're building is an archive of research as I learn about my own creative journey with 30 years' experience and how I'm pivoting into something else with complete freedom. And my goal is just to show you that anything is possible and that we're all creative and that we can all make creative choices and find some level of happiness.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Sessionhair.com.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

It's great, it's a great newsletter.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Is it only is it weekly or is it more than weekly?

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Do you know what? So so I do my research pull and I will I'll study it, look at it, I'll form my own opinion on it, I'll feed back into the AI, then I'll write my editor's letter, and then I'll pull the pieces that I think I connect with. Um and it can go three times a week, or it can go once a week. I try to make it once a week minimum. But then what I'll do is I'll go and talk about what I've learned on a live that evening. And I think what that that's what I learned actually at Tony and Guy was about becoming an educator. Every time you teach something, you reaffirm that information. Every time you do a reel, and and you that's why your your your work looks so beautiful because you know you have a consistent way of capturing editing, and the work is great. So you're building every time you repeat and do and tweak, you just become stronger and stronger and stronger. So I kind of do my research, put it in the newsletter out, and then I sit and go live and talk about my newsletter. Um then people throw questions up, and you know, we start to just have these conversations, which a lot of people are afraid to go near that are in the industry. Yeah, I'm not trying to be in the industry anymore, so I can answer questions maybe that someone would think if I if a producer saw this or a client saw this, they may think, Why am I asking about what's the most you've ever made? Or are they gonna think I'm money hungry? For example, whereas I'm free, I'll uh I'll answer at pretty much anything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

All right. Well, so you do those the evening, the newsletter, the live. That's good to know, because I'll yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah, and and I'm I'm building up a formula of where we I keep them and drop out the snippets and we'll see. But you know, you have to remember that you can only go so fast as you I'm sure you're very aware with with your podcast. The the last thing maybe I'll just sign off on is take your time. Just take your time. Time is your best investment.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

You're not in a rush. Thanks, Adam.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Thank you so much. Really appreciate being here again.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Thanks for joining me today on the Makeup Insider. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Please don't forget to rate and subscribe, and I'll see you soon. Bye for now.