People At The Heart
Where we chat about all kinds of things, both serious and light-hearted, connected with our team and our work at RiskSTOP Group.
People At The Heart
From IT to Fantasy: Martin J Lake
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In this episode, Johnny Thomson speaks with Martin Lake, Head of IT at RiskSTOP Group and author of Beyond the Stones, about his journey from a New Year’s resolution to becoming a published fantasy writer. Martin shares how honest feedback led him to creative writing classes, why Arthurian legend and Norse mythology inspired his stories, and what it really takes to write, edit and publish a book. He also talks about the satisfaction of seeing his work in print, reaching the Amazon bestseller list, and the value of simply having a go. A warm and humorous conversation about creativity, determination and finding a passion outside the day job.
Hi everyone, I'm Johnny Thompson and welcome to another episode of our People Little Heart Podcast, where we like to chat about all kinds of things, both serious and lighthearted, connected with our team and our work here at Risk Up Group. Now, there's an old saying that everyone has a book in them. And while that may be true, most people never really get round to writing one. Often people talk about it for years, and nothing ever emerges. But not our head of IT, Martin Lake. In fact, Martin decided one book wasn't enough for the world and has already written two, which suggests either admirable determination, Martin, or a worry and lack of feedback from the first book. So, Martin J. Lake, author of Beyond the Stones and the Wider Chronicles of the Realm series, welcome.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Johnny, and uh thank you for the opportunity to bang on about my book in yet another forum.
SPEAKER_00Absolute pleasure, mate. Now, like all good stories, we'll start at the at the beginning. So when did this first move from having something in you, if you like, then emerge and turn into something that you've actually taken on and done?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's like, as you say, everyone feels they have a story in them, and and you know, people will daydream and think about things and you know, kind of have ideas and thoughts. And uh I've always been really interested in um fantasy, you know, Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett, the whole gamut, as well as um historical stuff, so uh Arthurian legend, Norse mythology. Um, but it all really started probably about 12 years ago. I sat down with my family, wife and two daughters, and we were talking about um just over Christmas about New Year's resolutions. They were coming up with their normal things, so you know, daughters were saying, I'm not gonna sponge off dad quite so much this year and keep my room tidier, all the all the the ones that will last about two weeks. And just off the top of my head, I said, I'm gonna write a book. And it was treated with the the the contempt that probably a lot of people get when they say, I'm gonna write a book, or I'm gonna, you know, true write the latest. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I I sort of sat down and I wrote two or three chapters of what I thought was absolutely the next Harry Potter epic. Uh, gave it to my wife to read, and should have had a clue after about page one when she asked for a glass of wine. Um, but she ploughed through it, and once she'd finished reading, uh, she turned around to me and said, This is total rubbish. Um, which was a little bit of a shock. She said, actually, the story potentially has merit. She said, But you can't write. She said, if you're gonna do this, learn to do it properly. And I think that was the real difference. So a lot of people will sit and they'll start, you know, writing down and maybe write a few chapters. And I genuinely think if she'd have said, Oh, yeah, no, this is all right, I'd have maybe written a little bit more and it would have fizzled out. But because she was, as my wife is, so completely honest, um, and and said how bad it was, that that I then went out and I I joined uh evening classes for creative writing courses and I read up a lot about it, and actually started to learn the craft of writing properly, and actually realised that this is something that I really did enjoy, rather than just going, oh, I've got a book in me, I want to write it. Um, that it I found a creative side to me that I didn't realise I'd previously had. Um and literally from there just carried on writing and took about eight years from that um New Year's resolutions to book one being published.
SPEAKER_00So that's a lot of determination, Martin. I mean, you know, in all seriousness, getting that initial feedback well, it certainly ended for most people that would just say, Oh, well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna bother with it. So what is it behind this? It's obviously a passion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, why do you think you're you're you you you're so fascinated by writing and well say the the the motivation was you know Catherine saying that I was rubbish at something and it was like okay, well I am going to learn to write and learn to do it properly, um, and just realized it was something that I really enjoyed, was passionate about. Um probably says something about me that I quite enjoy spending time on my own listening to imaginary people in my head and writing down what they tell me to do. Um and you may as well make use of that then. Absolutely, yes, yes. Um, yeah, I'm sure in in any other hobby you would that would be frowned upon, but uh as an author, you are encouraged to listen to these imaginary people in your head. Um, and it was just I I loved developing characters and and seeing the story develop. And you know, I I I'm not the sort of writer that will plot an entire book out beginning to end before I start writing it. Um I'm what's called a pantser, so I very much write by the seat of my pants, so I don't really know entirely. I've got an overview of what the story's gonna be, but I don't know all the the intricacies until I literally kind of sit and and write and almost listen to what the characters are telling me to do.
SPEAKER_00I've got to ask, what what what's with the slightly more distinguished Martin J. Lake for the title? I'm sure everyone's curious about that.
SPEAKER_01Uh well the only reason is that there is a Martin Lake who is also a fantasy author and he's British. Um and he got there first, which I I thought was very unfair of him. So that makes all the difference. Yeah. Um and as an author, you're not supposed to sort of pick somebody else's name, so you do need to differentiate it. So yeah, I just stuck my middle initial in there.
SPEAKER_00Without giving it all away, obviously, because I mean you want people to to read the books, but tell us a little bit about Beyond the Stones, you know, the first book.
SPEAKER_01So it it came about from as I I into Arthurian legend and the Norse mythology. So the premise is that um there are these other magical realms where you know the traditional elves and dwarves and good versus evil are. Um and they in the time of King Arthur, they were all separated from Earth. So magic used to be around it. Science and technology gradually overcame that and until you get to like 21st century Britain, where it's all science and technology, and magic is is confined to myth and legend. And then all of a sudden these realms merge again, and and we get incursions by evil elves, and it's like, oh, what are we gonna do? And then this the the hero of the story uh appears.
SPEAKER_00Any hidden allegorical stuff or anything? You know what it's like when you're studying in English literature, I'll go way, way back, and that you know the teacher would always say, but what the author was really saying here was this.
SPEAKER_01I made the really, as you alluded to in your introduction, it's like one book wasn't enough. Um I made the possibly with hindsight slightly silly um decision to write it as a trilogy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Without ever having written the first book and not realizing what it would be. So it was always designed as a trilogy. And I had no idea how book one was going to end, even to the point where I was about halfway through writing it. I still didn't know. So, in terms of you know, hidden meanings and and messages, and yeah, it's like absolutely none of that. It's just a story that I enjoyed writing, but yeah, there's no hidden meanings. And and you genuinely actually don't really know, in essence, where it's gone? No. Um and the reason book book two took so long to write was that um I didn't know what book to I book two, I knew what the overarching plot was, but all of the rest of it I had no idea. And that took me 18 months to figure out. Um so I've learned my lesson. So book two has is got a lot more that sets up ready for book three.
SPEAKER_00Because I think that's what we often think we're books and authors, don't we? We think we imagine that they've got some grand plan and grand scheme that's going to take them right up to that point. But from some of the reading I've done, that's that's that's usually not the case. It is kind of a little bit of make it up as you go along. Absolutely, yeah. Which brings us really to the question, you know, what what what is it, what does it take? What does it actually take to write a book?
SPEAKER_01I go to a a Summers Writer School every August, and I was talking to somebody there probably about three years ago, um, and they said, I do find that being an author is a little bit like having homework most nights of the week for the rest of your life. Um and it is selling it really well there. Yeah. Oh I I oh it's it yeah. I mean, if you want a hobby that you can pick up and do for an hour or two a week, do not get into writing. You know, you can literally spend two or three hours just on one paragraph. And unless you're really lucky um to get a publisher, which I initially self-published, I now have a publisher, they do quite a lot of the like the the editing work, etc., for you. But if you're self-publishing, which vast majority of people do, not only have you got to write the story, you've got to edit it, you've got to market it, you've got to work on the covers, you've got to work on the layout so it's ready for Kindle as well as paperback. You know, it's a huge amount of work to do. Um, and the amount of research you have to do. Now, I I have entire shelves of bookcases at home dedicated to Norse mythology, um Stonehenge and and Standing Stones, Arthurian legend.
SPEAKER_00And that's that that I would imagine is the fun bit for you. Yeah, you you're delving into something, uh underneath it, and then but then you're actually using that, you're not just storing it in your mind and that's it, but you're making you're making use of that almost, you're recycling that knowledge and and and into something else.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, yeah, and and you do end up with some huge amounts of of weird knowledge, and you know, you can also end up with a very interesting search history. So, you know, the the the novels are set in 21st century Britain, so you've got um science, technology, modern warfare, but you've also got magic being used. So, you know, I I've had to research things like you know, what is the area of effect of a fragmentation grenade, or you know, how do you change a magazine on an AK-47 or an SA80? And I I'm sure there's possibly somewhere in the government that's looking at this search history going, what is this guy doing? And then, oh no, he's an author, that's fine. You just ignore him.
SPEAKER_00What I find really fascinating um is when when you when you paint a stereotypical image in your mind of of of an author, which would be somebody quite creative and and and so on, and then you then you generate a picture of someone who is head of IT. I'm not being disparaging in any way, Martin, but it feels like potentially there's sort of two Martins here.
SPEAKER_01And and it is it is different. So as I say, it it's I discover, you know, I I've been working in IT since I was you know for the last 42 years. Um, but it was only the last you know 10-15 years that I've discovered writing. So I discovered that creative side to me that I didn't really know. So I've yeah, I've never been into drawing or music or anything like that. So discovering that I had a creative side was was a bit of a shock. So I think it just goes to prove that you know everyone has got multiple aspects to their personality. Um, you know, and and how you are professionally isn't necessarily how you are out of work. Any overlaps? Occasionally it helps having access to a fast printer. Um But yeah, it's it's it's something that I'm now really comfortable with, with that aspect of my personality and you know, really enjoy doing. You know, I I love the the sense of achievement um that that gives me. And it's like it's just amazing when somebody sort of turns around and she says, Oh, I've read your book and I really enjoyed it. What what what's been in the most meaningful moment for you? Uh two in particular. So um year before last I did uh an official launch at the The Summers Writers School. So there's about 250 people go there, and and every year there's uh a handful of authors who have launched books and you get to do a book launch there. And actually doing a book launch there and and having a queue of people queuing up for you to sign the book is is amazing. Somebody took a picture of it, and I did send that to my wife, and and she said, Oh, that's amazing. She said, You you need to get used to it. She said, There'll be another queue tomorrow. And I said, Really, you think so? She said, Yeah, they'll be bringing it back for a refund, which is genuinely what she said. Still your number one fan. Absolutely, yes. No, she she has read neither of my books. Um, we had an agreement. If I sold a thousand copies, she'd read it. And I got to a thousand copies and she upped it to two thousand. Um, so but but that having people queuing up genuinely you know wanting you to sign a copy of your book that they've bought. Um, and the other moment was um getting to number four on the Amazon bestseller list for for my genre, um, which was brilliant. Um, numbers two and three were two of JK Rowling's books. So I thought, you know what? If if I can be there, yeah, I'm not saying for instance my books are as good as hers, but you know, for that one day I was I was up there and I've I've got a screenshot, and it's like, yes.
SPEAKER_00And where was Martin Lake? Martin Lake was number four. Well, no, but I'm talking about Martin, you're Martin J. Lake. Oh, um, where was where was he?
SPEAKER_01I think he's retired now, so his books are still available to buy. But he wasn't on the list. Oh, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00Result.
unknownThere you go.
SPEAKER_00Could be proud of that. So look, we let's go back to where we started. Um this whole theme and this idea of of people having an idea, people thinking about doing something, whether it's a book or whether it's a passion or or whatever, but something in us seems to hold us back or uh uh you know, I d I don't know what from making that step, making that, making that leap. What would what would you say to them, you know, with the experience that you've you've had, you know, how do you overcome that initial barrier and then what do you get out of it, really?
SPEAKER_01So I I I think the the biggest thing is is whatever it is, go for it. I mean, I genuinely, even after I'd done some writing courses, didn't think that I would make it, you know, and and I still work full-time, so being an author for me is is very much a hobby, perhaps a hobby that's got a little bit out of control, but um, you know, it's yeah, there would I I fully appreciate I will never make a living from being an author. But even when I was writing a book, I never truly believed that you know I I would ever sell a thousand copies. I thought, well, yeah, maybe if I sell 20 or 30 to family and friends by badgering them, then um so you know, I I can say that I am a moderately successful amateur author. But the the the point is that, well, if I can do it, and and not just writing anything, so whether you're you know into music or or drawing, just go for it because you don't know until you try and you put the effort in, and it does take effort, you know. It's you don't just sit there and you know, after a weekend typing and you've got a bestseller, it's it's a lot of work, but it will be that's true for anything. But if you put the effort in and and it's something that you're you're passionate about and you can put some dedication into it, then you know it's it's most skills can be learnt.
SPEAKER_00I guess some people would possibly say, well, yeah, but what what what made people think, you know, or what if I feel and then what made people think. But does that does that really matter?
SPEAKER_01No, and and one of the things that that I've learned within the writing community, especially, is they're really supportive. So you know, I'm a I'm a member of a couple of writing groups, and so I go to this Summer's Writers School, which incidentally is a charity that ACT provided a grant for, which last year, which was brilliant.
SPEAKER_00So I was gonna mention that, I was gonna say that there is help out there, isn't it, with most things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and you've you'll find in in most towns and cities there are you know at least one, if not many, writing groups that that you can join, and and most of them are really welcoming and and will you know be really supportive. And I've learned so much from you know, you take along a a chapter for critique, and you know, you'll get some honest critique, but it will be done in a really friendly, supportive right way. And there has been friendly rip taking um about my book, you know. They've the the comments of oh yes, I must buy a copy because I've I've got a wonky table that's that's just the right thickness for. Um, but actually, I genuinely do think that the people who have read the book, um, you know, they're not saying it's absolutely the best thing they've ever read, but they're saying, yeah, they've really enjoyed it. Quick fay around. So when you're when you're writing, is it coffee tea? I wish I liked coffee. I don't like it, so it's tea. Paper or digital? Um I write on a laptop, but I review and edit on paper. Favourite fantasy author? Serious fantasy is Tolkien. Yeah. Comedic fantasy is Terry Pratchett. Favourite people of the hard podcast presenter? Um, truly. I did think about being humorous then, but I'm shocked. I thought Natalie Joyce was just gonna immediately come out of your mouth. No, but Natalie didn't ask me to talk about my book. You did. That's giving you a few brownie points.
SPEAKER_00Oh, there we go. Thank you very much. And and what about book three? When do you think it's gonna come out? Uh say hopefully next summer. And how many people get them?
SPEAKER_01You you mentioned Amazon before, so you can go on Amazon and just get the get the book, or you can ask you nicely for a yeah, so it it's it's available on Amazon on both um Kinder Lee Book and Paperback. So Beyond the Stones, and which is book one. Yeah. And then Daughter of Destiny is book two. Um so yeah, they're they're both currently available. Trying to get them into local Waterstones, and I've I've approached them. Um I just need to get copies that aren't printed by Amazon because they don't like that. Just trying to get um a local printer to print non-Amazon copies, and and Waterstones have said that they'll stop them, which would be exciting.
SPEAKER_00That must be lovely. I'm just thinking, I'm just looking at you holding those books, you know, having something tangible in your hands like that and thinking, I did this, that must that must feel good.
SPEAKER_01Actually, when you when you were saying about the the the moments, yeah, that when I very first got this the the first book sent through and there was a physical copy, that was amazing. You you see your name on the front, you think, bloody hell, I I did that. You know, it is a real sense of achievement.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Well listen, thank you very much, Martin.
SPEAKER_01Is there is there anything else that you No, I'd literally just to say, if you have a passion for something, then whether you're good, mediocre, poor at it, don't let it stop you. You know, because it's if just do it and you will get better and um just the sense of achievement and and the feeling that oh you know, I I I've I've done this, whether it's running a marathon, writing a book, writing your own song, whatever it is, um just yeah, just go for it. The worst you're gonna do is is find out that it's not something you're passionate about. But if you don't try, you'll you'll never know. So seriously, well done.
SPEAKER_00Well done, mate. I am genuinely impressed by your achievement, even if there is a reluctance in me to show it. The bit that's impressed is very well hidden. No, seriously, it's done incredibly well, mate, and you should be very proud of yourself. Um so yeah, well done.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much, and thanks for having me on the podcast.
SPEAKER_00And that's all for this episode of Our People at the Heart Podcast. Thank you everyone for listening in. I, along with one or two other presenters, will be back soon with all kinds of things to talk about from different guests. And keep your eyes here for more episodes and announcements coming shortly. And if you want to see more of what we're doing around social responsibility, you can head to risktopgoo.co.uk or something social media. Remember, here at Risk TopGoop, it's all about keeping people safe and secure and believing in social responsibility and sustainability. Until next time, everyone. Bye.