How Conveyo is Transforming Property Sales with Speed and Transparency

In this episode of the Family Law Cafe Podcast, host Joanna Toch interviews Dr. Konrad Rotthege, founder of Conveyo, an innovative platform transforming the conveyancing process. They discuss parallels between Family Law Cafe and Conveyo, both emphasizing customer-focused solutions to antiquated systems. Dr. Rotthege shares how Conveyo uses technology to streamline property transactions, reducing average transaction times significantly while providing better customer experiences. The conversation explores inefficiencies in traditional conveyancing, the integration of technology, and the importance of client-centered services.

Show Notes

•Host: Joanna Toch

•Guest: Dr. Konrad Rotthege, Founder of Conveyo

•Topics Discussed:

•The inefficiencies of traditional conveyancing

•Conveyo’s approach to making property transactions faster and more transparent

•The role of technology and AI in streamlining processes

•Parallels between conveyancing and family law systems

•Importance of client-focused service in legal industries

Links & Resources:

•Conveyo Website

•Family Law Cafe

Transcript

Hello, this is Joanna Toch Family Law Cafe podcast. Today I'm delighted to present uh, Konrad Rotthege who has an amazing business. It's called Conveyo. It's conveyancing online. I think it's very like what we do at Family Law Cafe but we're going to find out. So Conrad, welcome to the podcast. How would you describe yourself and what you do? Well um, to give a bit of background about myself, I'm um, from Germany and uh, I'm a lawyer by background. I started my career about 10 years ago at Freshfield in the M and A and M property space and I recently, two years ago started Conveyo after having had a uh, terrible conveyancing experience myself. I was about to purchase a property and the purchase fell through and I felt that the process was run in a very sort of intransparent, opaque, slightly confusing way and ah, that caused me to look further ah into um the extra details of that process. Um, uh and then I thought to myself there must be a better way ah to transact properties than we currently do. And that was the beginning of Conveyor. Okay, is it just you or are you working with anyone else? So I have a fantastic business partner, Andrea. He's Italian, a data scientist and he um, worked at UBS for many years as a data scientist and algorithmic trader. And Andrea is the uh, mastermind m behind our tech that we leverage to streamline the process um, and make it more efficient, more transparent. Um. Really? Um, yeah. Okay. So when you were working in M and A, mergers and acquisitions as I understand, not an area um, I know very much about but we do have. So I sometimes speak to people who move from that into divorce coaching say it's very similar but obviously um, but not companies, people. Uh, so did you not want to stay there? I mean that must have been a very comfortable may I say well paid life and a good lifestyle. What drove you into um building something for yourself? Uh, working in M and A has been incredibly rewarding. Um um, I always enjoyed it. Um, very interesting transactions. I met very interesting people and uh, I had a fantastic team. I started my career at Freshfields, uh um and um, worked on many of the um sort uh of current uh M and A transactions um at the time. Um, but I also always wanted to start my own thing at some point and for a while I thought it would be uh, maybe a law firm. I'm very um, interested in technology and uh, thought it'd be interesting to actually combine those two and uh, start um a company that Takes an antiquated, outdated legal process and then leverages technology to actually improve that process. Because conveyancing, in my knowledge there have been various initiatives to make it, bring it perhaps a little bit more into this century. And I know that a lot of conveyancing firms have, you know, an online portal they might use. What makes conveyo different. So, um, during my, during my time, um, as a lawyer, I learned uh, what it means to deliver excellent client service in the legal services industry. And, and that mindset and that spirit we're bringing to the conveyancing process today. And the process as it stands is a very sort of internally processed, focused process. Um, it doesn't really cater for the client. It's not consumer focused, it's not consumer centric. And I think that's the main difference between um, the standard traditional process and what we do, how we achieve it is obviously, uh, a lot of it is technology, a lot of it is process management. But what the clients really care about is not so much how you get there, but it's the outcome. Because they don't sign up for a process, they sign up for an outcome. They want to move on with their life, they want to uh, move to the next property, start a new chapter. Um, and that's what we help them with. Because I know from my own experience and those that I'm close to that the buying and selling of the property, um, it does seem to me that the conveyancing solicitors are quite a different breed of people that you can never really understand what's happening and why things are taking so long. And it's almost as they just don't want to be disturbed. I'm also aware, I think it was at a time when, I think it was a few years ago, some changes were made. It was around Covid something was going on. I can't remember the details. Whereas conveyancing solicitors were saying were being inundated with um, uh, questions about the process, were overworked. So they didn't. They don't seem to be entirely happy with their system. And I just don't think generally that the customer, that the person that's buying or selling property, I don't think that we're very happy. Certainly my experience is you just don't know what's going on and then suddenly there's a rush towards the end and you have to run around. It doesn't feel like as someone who is making the purchase or the sale of the property, doesn't feel like you have much control. Would you Agree with that. Yes. Um, I would. I can quite understand how from a consumer perspective, and that was also my own experience I mentioned briefly in the beginning, it seems like an intransparent and opaque process and you don't feel that you are in charge, even though it may be the most, uh, you know, financially most important decision of your life, the biggest purchase you've ever. You will ever make, uh, buying a property. So. And there's, you know, in a weird sense there's a mismatch there. And um, that is certainly something that um, from my perspective also comes with a lack of um, client service, of excellent client service, which I do believe is paramount. Because client service ultimately creates loyalty, it creates trust and will help you to succeed in your business. And there are obviously different strategies how you can get there and how to achieve that. And um, I think communication is a key point. And in the current process we see uh, a lack of communication which then again triggers the feeling of not being in charge, of not knowing what's going on. Um, so uh, that is certainly something. Um, and sadly we often see a lack of professionalism as well. Um, though the conveyancing space is a regulated space, um, sometimes, um, you wish, um, individual players be more acting in a more professional way, ah, than they do, which again is part of delivering excellent client services. Yeah, I completely agree with you. And in Family Law, um, it seems to me that people need to be told what's going on. They need to understand they may be in a court process, they may have to wait four months for a hearing. And in that waiting time they're a little bit puzzled about what's going on, how to comply with things. So I try to make Family Law Cafe as open and transparent as possible. How does that work with Conveyo? So if someone, if I, well, let's say it's someone that is at Family Law Cafe and um, there's an order for sale of a house so they come to Conveyo. How would that work? So what we do is we um, prepare um, a property for the sale, um, very early on, as in when it hits the market, when it becomes a listing at an estate agency. So, um, in the current process, in the traditional process, ah, people wouldn't prepare the houses for sale. They would just wait, uh, until an offer has been agreed and then the sellers would start gathering or the legal paperwork that is required for the sale. And um, this can actually be done on the sale side already, as, uh, in while you're waiting for a buyer. Can I just stop you there? Then so in that example I've given, there's an order for sale of a property and obviously the estate agent needs to come around to take photos and all of that thing before it even goes on the market and then we wait for an offer. But what you're saying is once they know it's going to be sold, so there is that decision, they can start preparing it. So how would that happen? What do you need to do? Yes, exactly. It's exactly. As soon as a decision is made we recommend to reach out to us and kick off the ah, preparation process. And that consists of different elements. So one um, is the preparation of the property itself, which means we source all the legal paperwork that is required for the property but also the property searches that reveal the uh, factual and legal um, history of a property. So they're very important from a purchaser's perspective. Um, we ah, would also uh, run um, some uh, compliance cheques, kyc know your customer cheques that are required, um, and uh, would help ah, the sellers to um, gather all the information that is required. So is it this? When I looked at setting up Family Law Cafe I thought how can we do this better to start from the beginning and you know that the current system is not fit for purpose. So have you looked at conveyancing and thought yeah, how can we do this better? Let's prepare everything, get it ready because from what I know of conveyancing, you get the sale, um, someone makes the offer, uh, it's accepted and then they start looking. So those local it's searches, isn't it with the. Is it local government searches? Exactly, the local end charges. And yeah, there are different kinds of searches required for the transaction. And yes, so what we've done is we've basically deconstructed the entire process and um, the process today is run in a chronological order, piece by piece, step by step. And uh, we've looked at it and said wouldn't it make more sense if we did this a bit earlier? Uh, and if we did those things in parallel and can we already start preparing this while this is happening? And this is ultimately what we do and why we are so much faster. So the average transaction time at the moment is around 30 weeks. So it takes about 30 weeks to buy a property and that's crazy. 30 weeks. And it's also incredibly risky because one in three transaction falls through 30 uh, weeks. Sorry, I'm computing that. Yes. So that's like two thirds of a year. Sorry, I just. That's just falling for me because It's a while since I bought or sold a house that's just so destroying, isn't it? Because once you want to move, you want to move. Yeah. And what is really so destroying there? And that's the average. So there will be longer ones. There will be longer but also shorter ones. But yes. And that's the average according to the home uh, buying and selling group, a body who monitors these kind of timeframes. Um, and with conveyor. Because the second point was um, it's not just that they so long but it's also that they're very risky because of the length of the process. A lot of these transactions don't make it over the finish line. So after a sale has been agreed they basically just break. At some point they fall over. And what makes them break? Well often, um, funny enough, um, um, transactions often break in the first two weeks or so when um, a purchaser ah, changes their mind, they look at different properties and then they actually say well actually we'd rather go with this one. So fair enough. Not much time has been invested at that point. Um, but then uh, at a later stage transactions often break because the parties uh, suddenly feel frustrated with the process. They feel insecure, they don't know if their buyer is actually going to buy the house. And obviously as a seller you know, you also have plans, you want to move on to your next house and maybe put your kids in the school there but you don't know if you actually be able to sell that house to those people. And you've already been in entertaining a process for months. And um, very often uh, these um, process inefficiencies then can lead to a fall through. Yeah, that's really important to me. So what you're saying is, I thought you meant that there was something in the search is not coming in or something legal. But what you're saying is because it takes so long, of course the very length of time is going to affect people, isn't it? Dramatically, yes. And so again I align this with Family Law Cafe that we try to say where are you now? Where do you want to get to? And sort of reverse engineer that. And then that can save a lot of time because sometimes we can say you probably won't get that when you go to court. So you might want to concede that now and you get an outcome that's much, much quicker. Um, I've had people say you've done more in two days than has been done for me by my present solicitor in six months. I was like yeah, yeah. Because we're just going to get on with it. That's all I want to do for people. Because that length of time, we're just not used to that in modern life, are we? I mean that's a crazy element. Yes. Things should be quicker. Yes. And I think our um, expectations in everyday life, they have dramatically changed. I mean if uh, we took our phones out we could have a pizza here in 30 minutes or book an Airbnb somewhere at the other end of the world uh, in a matter of minutes. And, and while certain walks of life have uh, gone with technology and enabled us to experience this push a button, magic happens. Uh, other walks of life and other industries have been completely left behind with that. Uh, and that is definitely something that we're changing. And I mean I must say I find what you do with uh, family location, um, um, I see a lot of parallels there. Um, because both our customers, they don't sign up for a process, they sign up for an outcome. They come for help. They want to buy a property, sell a property or they want to get through a divorce, they want custody of their child, they don't want to entertain a lengthy process. And I think the reason that a uh, divorce and actually buying and selling a property are ranked amongst the five most m stressful experiences together with a serious illness in somebody's life. I think part of the ah, reason is that um, the processes are run uh, the way they are currently run and I think it takes uh, brave entrepreneurs and visionary people to change the these processes for the better. I'm going to be um, honest, I want everyone that uses family nor cafe to use conveyor because it's the nearest thing they're going to find to what they've been experiencing with us. Because once people come on board and they understand what we do they totally get it and why it's different. And from what I know about conveyor and we're going to go into it a bit more um, it's the same idea. It's saying let's do this. In a way it should be done in 2024, not you know, as if it's 1974 or whatever. Yes, exactly. You know, it's craziness isn't it that you, it is so slow. It is crazy. And the inefficiencies are just mind baffling really. Um, I could give tonnes of examples about those but obviously they're very specific. But uh, yeah, there's ah, an upside to be discovered and so someone that's using conveyor You've told us about how you get everything ready. So once they make the decision they want to sell the house. How quickly can you get things together? Because probably a bit like Family Law Cafe. Unfortunately we still have to deal with the court. So unfortunately sometimes we get it in quickly and we try and do whatever we can. Sometimes we get frustrated by the fact that the court doesn't list the hearing for six months and we can't get past that. So firstly with conveyo, how quickly can you work? And secondly, do you get those instances where you are prevented from working quickly by other parties? Yes. So, um, a seller can prepare their property for say the conveyor in a matter of hours. Really? Wow. Oh my goodness. I wasn't expecting that. Yes. So our portal completely guides them through the entire process and it will um, explain what documents need to be obtained and where to find them. And it's all written in very easy language. So there's no sort of legal jargon in there that confuses um, people. Sorry to stop you there. So they have their own online portal, a bit like they have their online case space at Family Law Cafe where they are guided through very simply. Exactly. They're guided through it in their own time. They just do it at their own pace. And um, they uh, can call us anytime. We always have um, people um, available to help um, when things. When someone gets. Again, that's a parallel because I don't want people just to be baffled. And it shouldn't be like your checkout at the supermarket where you have to do it all yourself. You still should have people to help you. Exactly, exactly. And I think that's very important because. Because um, we are um, you know, we're powered by technology but ultimately um, we care about uh, the transaction of another person. And so it's a very personal service. Um, and we also uh, uh often have uh, elderly um, buyers, uh, and sellers, um, who sometimes are ah, not so familiar with the in and out, in and outs of technology. And uh, we guide them through that step by step over the phone or uh, um, in a meeting. So um, I think that's very important. Yeah, we do too. And it just works the same way. And it's. I designed it so it would be very simple and so as long as you can give confidence, those people would have someone there. So you said they have their own online portal. They get their documents, could be done in a matter of hours. How does it work from there? And the second part of your question, whether we get um, restricted by third parties, um, in Terms of um, speed and preparation. So um, we obtain the searches and um, they're coming from um, uh, the local authorities and they have different time frames to process these searches. So sometimes um, they are very fast and sometimes it can take uh, a couple of weeks um, for those searches to be processed. So that's something that we don't uh, control. Um, but um, given that you start the process um, on day one of the listing or even before it comes to the market, the property, uh, there's plenty of time to wait for these searches because it's very unlikely that you find a buyer who's ready to buy within two weeks from that moment in time. Because lots of people arrange things thinking we would get a quick sale and they say there's no chain, we'll go into rented. Uh, and they still seem to take them ages and I'm beginning to understand why now because they've not done anything to prepare that sale and they've waited until the offer is made and then there might have been as you say, first couple of weeks. Sometimes people drop out and change. But if they're all ready to go, then what will happen after the offer? So let's say they've decided to sell, they've got everything ready, they come to you, an offer is made six weeks after it goes on the market. So where does it go from there? So once um, the sale is agreed, we um, uh, onboard the buyer, um, uh, which means we prepare them for the transaction. On uh, the buy side there are certain things to consider. For example if uh, someone is buying with a gift, um, in these cases the giftor needs to be um, identified as well. They need, need to uh, pass certain anti uh, money laundering cheques and so on just to ensure we are compliant uh, with uh, regulation. And so we would do all that and uh, during that time the buyer would typically also sort out their financing. So they might have a mortgage which they would then take care of during that time. And uh, once uh, that process is completed there may be some questions going back and forth about more details of the properties. But that's usually something we can sort very quickly and uh, then the property is ready to exchange. So I suppose it depends obviously if someone needs to get a mortgage that can delay it and there's nothing you can do because they're getting their mortgage. Um, sometimes people. Because another thing that is said is estate agents will say they have a mortgage in place and they have a substantial deposit and so then that offer is accepted and then that doesn't happen. But I guess if that were really true, then how quickly could it all happen? If let's say they have their mortgage in place. So we have repeatedly exchanged properties in uh, 28 days or less. Perfect. Um, I'm coming to you. If I'm selling, I'm coming to you. I'm saying days, not weeks. Weeks, yeah, days, not weeks, not months. Ah. And so if you are purchasing, can you start with Conveyo? Yes. You can? Mhm. How does that work? Do you just say I need to buy a property? Um, can you do it? Exactly, very much like that. We would start with the process I've just described. Ask um, a few questions around the financing and around the buyer themselves. Um, and um, once ah, we receive the information from the sell side, we will then start um, the process. Perfect. So often if people are selling their property, the estate agent will say we have certain solicitors we use. So are there estate agents that refer people to you or how does that work? How do people find out about you? Um, well certainly estate agents um, often refer solicitors m. Some estate agencies have um, contracts, referral contracts with big solicitor or conveyancer conveyancing firms. And these are not always the um, um, the fastest um, providers uh, on the market. But then again there's also um, a number of estate agents ah, that um, are free in their choice who to recommend uh, for the process and they tend to then recommend providers that are much speedier and much more the case. And just to be clear. So Conveyor is doing all of the organisation but there's still a solicitor involved? That's right, yes. Okay. And so you work with that solicitor. So you're doing, getting everything funnelled in and really um, in same way as Family Law Cafe works with solicitors and barristers. So you're a platform just as we are. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. It's so similar. And um, you know I totally get why you're doing what you're doing. I mean do you enjoy it? Very much so, Very much so. And it's so, it's so rewarding when clients uh, write to us or leave us reviews and say it has been like the easiest experience I've ever had when buying or selling or you know, uh, they feel for them it's such an important transaction and just to make them so happy and being able to help them is great. Yeah. It does feel personal. And I have to say that, you know, there's some things that are not always easy. Um, you know there's problems, you know, obviously things come up all the time. But it's really rewarding for me to be doing something different that people appreciate and when they. They are appreciative. It's just such a lovely thing, isn't it? Yeah. And so where is it going next? Where, how. What's the big game plan? Um, well we are um. We're still a young company and we're constantly growing our um, our fan base if you want. So um. We've made um, very uh profound connections ah with a lot of uh, players in the industry um, that uh, we work with and um, um. They just love the convenience and the speed of our service. For uh, example, uh, we have um, one corporate client who uh, buys uh, a large number of properties. Um and ah, we m. Facilitate that process for them, um, which they used to wait about six to eight months for these transactions to go through. And now um, it's more a matter of six weeks. Um and it makes them very happy. And also it makes uh, total sense from an um, economic perspective if you think that you know, you may be buying and selling property, flipping property, um, as a business. And if you need to wait six months to buy a property and then renovate it, refurbish it for three months and then wait another six months with your capital locked in to resell it, that's very pricey. Yeah. And yes, and therefore many, many um, individual uh, but also corporate uh clients turn to us uh and in their need for faster transactions. Just something I just wanted to pick up because those that maybe not familiar with the whole conveyancing process. Earlier we talked about how quickly you could get to exchange. But my understanding, and I'm not a convincing lawyer, you might correct me, but once you've done the exchange, the completion can happen very quickly, can't it? Or it could even m. The next day or. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes exchange and completion happen on the same day. Yeah, yeah. And um, so basically at once, um, but also usually within a week we would then complete the purchase. And yeah, just for um. Just to explain, exchange means that the sale becomes legally binding and then completion means that you actually get the keys off your property. And that is actually very ah, interesting. Um, so we aim to get to exchange to the moment the sale becomes legally binding. Very fast. But then completion can be determined by the parties. And the stress of a property transaction usually results out of the circumstance, uh, that you don't know if it happens and if so when it will happen. But if you get to exchange quickly then you can determine the timeframe for completion and you can say look I want to, we exchange tomorrow, but I still want to live in this property for another three months because then I'm moving abroad or whatever. And that's absolutely in the discretion of the parties once you've reached that point in time. I'm just thinking the parallel with getting divorced, which is actually getting to the conditional order and all of the scrambling and hard work and you cannot get a financial order until then. But if you are already and you get your conditional order, you can put in your financial order the next day or, and that means that uh, a conditional order would mean all the legalities are done and then the decree absolute ends the marriage. So it's a similar situation, isn't it, that there's a lot to be done to make sure that the conditional order is correct and make sure the finances are uh, in order and the best thing that can happen. And what we offer people at Family Law Cafe, let's get this moving really quickly because again, people dealing with their finances, they might be two, three years. And that's crazy, it really is because it just shows. I always say to them, what's stopping this? You know, when they come to us, what's stopping it moving forward? And they usually know what it is, it will be, you know, something they will pick out and then we push on. So I think with buying and selling houses, as you said, the stress is one of the most stressful things, but you can reduce that stress by making it so much simpler. Uh, and obviously getting divorced is horribly stressful. But I want to make it easier for people. It sounds like I'm not promoting everyone. I'm saying if you've made that decision, like you're not promoting everyone selling their house, but if that's something you want to do, that life changing matter, which often it is, let's get on with it. Isn't that better? Yeah, I agree. Bring it back to my point earlier. People, clients, customers, they looking for outcomes, they want to achieve something and then move on in their life. Right. Uh, and that's what we both help them to achieve. Um, there's so many parallels with Family Law Cafe and Convert. Um, can't wait to put my flat on the market. No, I'm joking. Uh, but uh, yeah, I mean my partner recently, um, sold a property which should have been so simple. You know, he was just selling it as a landlord and um, similar to when he purchased a few years ago, he just simply could not understand this very, very slow system. And um, I think you're right. It's opaque, isn't it and it's um. There's no real reason for it. These things I think have just grown up historically and people don't want to change. I mean do you see an aversion to change in your industry? Well, um, the property industry is not the first one to change. I think that has been established over some time now. That being said, there are very um, innovative players in the market um, that find new business ideas and um, that take anti creative processes and transform them into the digital um, stage. Really? Yeah. Is there any um, scope for using AI or. I know that it's probably your partner that deals more with that area but. But are you using innovative ways to get things moving forward? Yes, absolutely. And that's uh, very much at the core of our technology. So uh, a lot of what we do is um, gathering data, ah, which means um, gathering information about the property and be it through the searches, be it through the land registry documents, um, albeit through the uh, Energy Performance Performance Certificate that contains a lot of information about a property and uh, all these data points they can be um, drawn in um, and then reviewed uh, through the system. Ah, so that's incredibly important. And the system can also do um, cross cheques to ensure accuracy and actually safety um, for the conveyancing process. So um, for example, if you were selling a property the system uh, would cross cheque, uh your id, the name on your ID and the name on the title. And if they don't match, you know, that would be an instant alert. And so we would be wondering why is Joanna, uh selling a property that has someone else's name in the title? And there could be reasons for it. Um, you may be acting with the power of ATT attorney or as an executor or so, but um, that is something that would uh, be picked up immediately. Just to give a very straightforward example. I mean it's really using um, these possibilities to make people's lives better, isn't it? But keeping the personal side of things. Yes. And honestly what it allows us to do is um, to free up the time of the solicitor. If the system is more accurate, it does that immediately and it allows uh, our solicitors to actually focus uh, on the client and on the case and actually provide value through their legal input and not by doing sort of menial works that are better done by technology. Yeah, I mean again this is uh, where I can see that we will want to use more technology for form filling, for routine things, so to get the basic information but rather than people having to fill in forms Even if they're filling forms online, it's not really helping them if they've got to type in their name, their address, their date of birth. This can be automated. Absolutely. So just to pick up that example, what we do is we ask you to identify yourself, but then the data from your passport is uh, used, um, for the rest of your journey. So you don't have to read, you don't have to type your name once we know it from your passport. So why were we. Oh, so you've got ahead of me there. That's so good. I love that. I, uh, might try and copy that. That's a great idea. But yeah, you've just got to keep thinking, haven't you? I mean with all these innovations, it's amazing how much there is for people. And yet, as you've said, 30 weeks. That's craziness. And presumably longer than it used to be. I don't think it was as long as that when I was younger. Very, very interesting, Lisa. Um, conveyancing times have never been longer. Crazy. Isn't that crazy? It is. Despite this, despite so many things moving digital conveyancing times have never been longer than they are today. And we saw during COVID um, actually a positive development in the sense that um, a lot of the parts of the conveyancing process have actually become more digital than they used to be. So ah, before COVID it was um, very um, standard to walk into someone's solicitor's office with your passport to identify yourself. And this has now been moved online through digital ID verification. But strangely enough, what we've also seen was um, we've seen a surge in property, uh, sales and purchases, transactions generally and um, ah, an increase in transaction time. But then after the uh, period ah, of cheap money, of low interest rates, uh, we've seen the property market cooling off and transaction numbers going down. But convincing times didn't really. They remained largely unaffected. Which has raised the question in the industry, why is that? Why is that? Why is that? And um, yeah, and certainly they are too long. Yeah. Okay, well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. I hope that anyone listening to this cheques, uh, out what you do, Honestly, I think they'd be crazy not to. I can't think of any reason why if you're buying or selling, you wouldn't use Conveyo. Just I suppose I can't see of any reason if you have a family law problem, why you wouldn't use family law Cafe. But uh, obviously everyone has choices really. Uh, I feel that people that come to us. It's more about a state of mind that they want to progress with their lives, they want to move on, they want efficiency, they want things done for them rather than having to run about after other people. Um, do you have a view about that? You know, I think as I say, it's not male, female, young, old, it's what's your state of mind? Do you want to move forward? What do you think about your conveyor customers? I think exactly, I think that's exactly true. Um, and if I was to add one point, uh, it's the point of control that you brought up earlier. I think the feeling of actually being in control of your sale, uh, or your family, uh, law related matter, um, is really important to our customers. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Joanna. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.