This episode of We Are What We Practice features the amazing Bernice Shaw.
My name is Lawrence Barriner II, and I’ve been obsessed with practice for what seems like decades at this point. People have called me the practice wizard. And I love being in my own practices and learning from other people about theirs. So if that sounds exciting or even curiosity-inducing, keep your ears peeled (or open).
Show notes:
This episode of We Are What We Practice features the amazing Bernice Shaw.
My name is Lawrence Barriner II, and I’ve been obsessed with practice for what seems like decades at this point. People have called me the practice wizard. And I love being in my own practices and learning from other people about theirs. So if that sounds exciting or even curiosity-inducing, keep your ears peeled (or open).
Show notes:
We Are What We Practice
Episode 2 - Bernice Shaw
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Lawrence Barinner: Bernice. Hi.
[00:01:27] Bernice Shaw: Lawrence. Hello.
[00:01:29] Lawrence Barinner: Welcome to the show.
[00:01:31] Bernice Shaw: Woo. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:37] Lawrence Barinner: Thank you for accepting and saying yes. It has been nice to be in relationship all these years in different formations, but good to have you.
[00:01:49] Bernice Shaw: Lawrence, how long have we known each other for?
[00:01:51] Lawrence Barinner: I want to say, I mean, it has to be 2015, right? Going on eight years.
[00:01:57] Bernice Shaw: Ooh, that's awesome. Eight is a great number
[00:02:01] Lawrence Barinner: Eight is great.
[00:02:02] Bernice Shaw: numerology wise.
[00:02:05] Lawrence Barinner: Oh,
[00:02:06] Bernice Shaw: Yeah, Chinese numerology eight sounds like in Chinese the word for prosper and fortune, so eight is in Chinese, Mandarin, which sounds like fa, which is also the meaning of prosperity.
[00:02:30] Lawrence Barinner: incredible. Well, this is our, this is our big year.
[00:02:35] Bernice Shaw: It is
[00:02:37] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. So let's do it.
[00:02:40] Bernice Shaw: good things for our relationship this year.
[00:02:43] Lawrence Barinner: Hell yes. Okay. Bernice, how are you arriving to this conversation today?
[00:02:51] Bernice Shaw: Hmm, great question, Lauren. I feel like I've already arrived.
[00:02:58] Lawrence Barinner: Oh.
[00:02:59] Bernice Shaw: I was joking earlier about like asking you, Hey, am I here because we're doing this virtually. You're in Boston, I'm in Oakland, you know, this is the world we live in now. You're like, yes, Bernice, you're here. So I'm arriving and how variety arrived and maybe I'm always arriving.
[00:03:20] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. Too deep, too quick.
[00:03:25] Bernice Shaw: I also wanna say, I'm arriving into this conversation as a first time interviewee. Is that the right term? Like I'm the, it's my first podcast
[00:03:36] Lawrence Barinner: Wow. What a gift.
[00:03:39] Bernice Shaw: and thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I've been on the like receiving side, the consuming side. I love podcasts and I'm just noticing even as we start, you know, those pauses between what we say, those are so golden.
[00:03:56] Lawrence Barinner: That's so funny because producer for the show, Ray Pang is
[00:03:59] Bernice Shaw: Uh huh.
[00:04:00] Lawrence Barinner: you and your friends pause so much.
[00:04:06] Bernice Shaw: Hey, Ray. Yes, we do.
[00:04:09] Lawrence Barinner: We do, and I love it.
[00:04:11] Bernice Shaw: It's gorgeous. Silence is gorgeous.
[00:04:15] Lawrence Barinner: A song I discovered on my annual retreat a few weeks ago, one of the lyrics is word to the Silence. I love how she looks at me. I know. Doesn't just take your breath away.
[00:04:29] Bernice Shaw: Oh, she's cute.
[00:04:32] Lawrence Barinner: Sh. She's so cute. She's so good.
[00:04:34] Bernice Shaw: a real one.
[00:04:36] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah,
[00:04:37] Bernice Shaw: I love her. That's amazing. Hey, Ray,
[00:04:40] Lawrence Barinner: it's pretty amazing. Oh gosh. Okay, Bernice, is there anything else you wanna say about how you are arriving today?
[00:04:46] Bernice Shaw: I would love to share actually kind of on this theme of silence and reflection. I would like to actually quote you and share something that you shared with me this morning, if that's okay. So I get this email from Lawrence, and this is a part of our practice, is sending each other inspirational quotes. I think that's something we do in our, both as facilitators in the work we do.
But just like friendship, you know, is one of the unique bonding qualities that I really associate in my relationship with you. So this is me quoting Lawrence, quoting the novelist, Jeanette Winter Sin. And the theme is darkness. So it's on the value of darkness. And the quote is, I have noticed that when all the lights are on, people tend to talk about what they're doing, their outer lives sitting round in candlelight or firelight.
People start to talk about how they're feeling their inner inner lights. They speak subjectively, they argue less. There are longer pauses. To sit alone without any electric light is curiously creative. I have my best ideas at dawn or at nightfall, but not if I switch on the lights. Then I start thinking about projects, deadlines, demands, and the shadows and shapes of the house.
Become objects, not suggestions, things that need to be done, not a background to the thought end quote, end scene.
[00:06:30] Lawrence Barinner: So Gorge,
[00:06:34] Bernice Shaw: we did it. We paused.
[00:06:38] Lawrence Barinner: we paused.
[00:06:39] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. I wonder what it's like though, why this unique noticing or this pattern in our human behavior is so resonant and it like resonated with both of us so much. Maybe it's the fact that it's winter and we have shorter daylight, or just the discomfort sometimes with people sitting in their feelings and wondering what to do about their feelings.
You know, I've been thinking about that a lot through this winter season. So thanks for sharing.
[00:07:15] Lawrence Barinner: You're super welcome and I'm glad it resonated. I'm not surprised it resonated, oddly why I sent it. But yeah, I am hoping that, yeah, maybe this conversation today can even though for sure, gonna ask you some what questions. Um, hope you get a chance to be into some feeling space too.
[00:07:38] Bernice Shaw: Mm. Accepted.
[00:07:43] Lawrence Barinner: Great. So next question, who are you these days?
[00:07:52] Bernice Shaw: I guess maybe I'll start by saying, because this is my first podcast, and like as the interviewee, I was thinking going into this, oh my gosh, we're gonna spend an hour, uh, asking me things about myself. What do I say? I don't have an hour's worth of things to say about myself. So maybe most importantly, who I am is that I'm not unique, you know, but embracing this invitation from you, you know, I am stretching myself.
I am trying to be brave. I am someone that's maybe not always courageous, but right now, like these days quoting you, I am someone trying to be a little more courageous and a little more brave, but I'm not unique, but I'm still special. How about that? not unique, but I'm still special. Winky, Winky face.
[00:08:51] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:54] Bernice Shaw: I mean, maybe the ways that I'm not unique is I am, you know, trying to be brave and courageous in a world that constantly shuts our bravery and courage down, you know?
[00:09:08] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:09] Bernice Shaw: special cuz I'm still trying. I'm somebody who tries the best that I can on a daily basis in the ups and downs. So visual cues.
So I am a complicated daughter of immigrants from Taiwan, Formosa. So I am a proud a p I woman. I identified I have long hair, that my long hair was just brushing against the microphone earlier. And sometimes I play with my hair. That's like a tick that you all know about me or you know about me. Lawrence,
[00:09:44] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:46] Bernice Shaw: I am a bad jazz flute player.
I love jazz, but I play it very poorly. But I'm into it and, uh, I don't know. Who am I? Bernice, Julie Shaw. I guess that's
[00:10:07] Lawrence Barinner: niece, Julie
[00:10:08] Bernice Shaw: I had to say. Yeah.
[00:10:10] Lawrence Barinner: Beautiful.
[00:10:11] Bernice Shaw: Thank you. I'm Lawrence's friend. Lawrence's buddy.
[00:10:15] Lawrence Barinner: no, grateful to be your buddy. Okay. I think I wanna ask next last question in this little opening section, how is your mind slash heart slash body slash spirit?
[00:10:31] Bernice Shaw: I love this question because we've been asked so much, especially during the pandemic, like how are you
[00:10:38] Lawrence Barinner: Yep.
[00:10:38] Bernice Shaw: Generally, broadly, and it feels so hard to answer, you know, when our conditions are changing so rapidly around us when there's so much uncertainty. So just being able to reflect that, you know, there are different pieces of ourselves is really important.
It's a good practice intention to reflect on each. So I think my response is like all parts of myself, mind, heart, body, spirit, feel constantly at odds with each other,
[00:11:06] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm.
[00:11:07] Bernice Shaw: be honest, just to be truthful about it. And my authentic like story version of that is they seem to be characters that are playing with each other or engaging with each other, like at a party or in a room.
You know, and they're like, not sure who should start the conversation, who's gonna be the center of attention, who's gonna start the dance part? You know, and they're just kind of negotiating that, but they're still at the same place at the same time, trying to have a good time. That's how I am doing overall.
And who knows, maybe the party's not working and someone needs to stage a sit-in or a walk out.
[00:11:50] Lawrence Barinner: Well
[00:11:51] Bernice Shaw: Yeah,
[00:11:52] Lawrence Barinner: happens over the course of the next hour, I'll be very curious.
[00:11:56] Bernice Shaw: All right. Okay. I'll let you know.
[00:11:59] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah. Please let me and us know part walks out and why.
[00:12:05] Bernice Shaw: Yes,
[00:12:06] Lawrence Barinner: What were their demands when they walked out?
[00:12:09] Bernice Shaw: For sure.
[00:12:12] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my gosh. Okay. The next chunk of our shows where we're gonna talk about what are you rebelling against, we're gonna talk about what are you reveling in, and we're gonna try to do some revealing before we get into talking about practices.
[00:12:30] Bernice Shaw: Hmm. Well, you know, I like a good alliteration.
[00:12:37] Lawrence Barinner: I do know that. I definitely know that. Okay, so let's start with Rebel.
[00:12:42] Bernice Shaw: Yes. Okay.
[00:12:44] Lawrence Barinner: What are you against?
[00:12:46] Bernice Shaw: I saw this question in advance and I wanna say it was so hard for me to figure out what I'm against,
[00:12:53] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm.
[00:12:54] Bernice Shaw: which feels like a great evolution and progress in my life.
[00:12:58] Lawrence Barinner: Ah, oh.
[00:12:58] Bernice Shaw: activist organizer, it's so easy to name the things we don't like and the things that we're fighting against as opposed to what we're fighting for.
But I think. Because I'm talking to you, Lawrence, uh, and like this unique relationship you and I have, I feel really inspired by how you live and how I believe we as a community and been in relationship with each other for a long time, how we live, which is fighting against this idea of false choices or false ideas and binaries and walls and borders or anything that kind of limits and closes off by force or systemic, whatever the unique qualities we have as human beings to evolve and adapt and learn and love and be loved, and share love.
So all y'all false choices out there and get outta here,
[00:13:57] Lawrence Barinner: Hey.
[00:14:00] Bernice Shaw: say no to that.
[00:14:02] Lawrence Barinner: That's right. Say no to false choices.
[00:14:05] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:06] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. Well, since you have so much growth around shifting away from prioritizing what you're against, what are you for?
[00:14:17] Bernice Shaw: Well, I'll say again, this one was also hard for me to answer, which I think is still a marker of the evolution that's still to come for all of us in this practice. So, but like to name maybe just broadly esoterically, I just really value when people try their best, you know, value, people who are struggling but still find a way to find joy.
And anything that kind of facilitates that or amplifies that, you know, gets me going, inspires me. I am also for moving with intention, but with a good time with lightness, you know, with that loose idea of what it means to be intentional. And so wherever you or I or we are on that path and journey, it's all good.
I also am really for pausing now as this like opening of our podcast reminded me of,
[00:15:21] Lawrence Barinner: Can I say a tiny bit more about that?
[00:15:24] Bernice Shaw: we just modeled it. That was a long pause.
[00:15:26] Lawrence Barinner: Oh, that's so funny. I didn't even track it. I was just like living my life.
[00:15:33] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. Well, pausing to process, to integrate, to absorb or just pausing because you're tired, you know, and you need a moment to rest and reset yourself. But being aware of your pausing, I think that's what I was trying to speak to is moving with intention as best as you can, is moving with that awareness too, of when you need the pause, when to take it.
And, you know, in social justice work in particular, and when we're constantly in gomo, because the world requires for us to be on, at least on purpose, it's very hard to find that kind of pause moment or those kinds of pause moments. So something I've learned from you over the years is can you craft your, and, you know, um, what is it manifest, uh, pauses intentionally in your life?
I think you can, and it's a practice.
[00:16:31] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm. Yes, you can.
[00:16:36] Bernice Shaw: Absolutely. We ain't got no control, but when life throws things at you, you can say, well, maybe not today.
[00:16:47] Lawrence Barinner: That's right. You can slow the F down.
[00:16:51] Bernice Shaw: Yes, yes. Thank you. Teacher also, teacher Lawrence.
[00:17:00] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my gosh.
[00:17:01] Bernice Shaw: Well, on that tip, I'm also for learning from my teachers. We all have teachers in our lives. So being intentional about what you're learning from your teachers and what you're asking to be taught as well. I think I get, I've been lucky in my life to have, uh, so many brilliant and intentional and beautiful and fierce and gorgeous people around me, friends comrades around me that have by my virtue of just like me being around them, osmosis absorbed, you know, learnings from them.
And maybe more recently, I've been more in the practice of naming exactly to detail what those learnings are so I can actually absorb them. So the practice of pausing specifically in life and intentionally planning into it is a teaching I have learned from you, Lawrence.
[00:17:58] Lawrence Barinner: A shout out to teachers. Well, Bernice. Now, I would love to know what are you reveling in? What is bringing you joy, or where are you finding joy these days?
[00:18:21] Bernice Shaw: Joy in all the small things. You know, there's joy in this torrential rain and storm season and downpour because I know our plant relatives need it and our earth and our planet needs it. And even though in my like annoyance of being caught in the rain all the time, there's joy in that and there's revel in Mother Nature for sure. I also am finding joy in. Like reflecting on the year, cuz this is the start of the year. I know many folks have that practice of setting intentions for the year. So we're in the year 2023. And what does that mean? What does that look for us look like for us? And I don't know if you were able to read the um, Norma Wong, like reading for the year yet, the year of the water rabbit.
[00:19:17] Lawrence Barinner: I have not gotten to it yet, but it's on my list for sure.
[00:19:21] Bernice Shaw: yes. Well, if it's okay, Lawrence, could I kind of just read out the first paragraph of that reading?
[00:19:31] Lawrence Barinner: Definitely, definitely.
[00:19:33] Bernice Shaw: Well, it's a historic moment because 2023 as the year of the water rabbit, and, you know, the, um, Chinese zodiac, um, like signs, there's 12 of them. So it's in rotation every 12 years, but in every 120 to 150 years comes this energy phenomena of the element associated with the zodiac animal.
So this is a unique water year of the rabbit, and it's extraordinarily unusual for a year to be uniformly, quote unquote, good for the humans celebrating their birth cycle, thus interrupting the usual ways in which the year's energy equally enhances positive and faulty habits. So, embracing the rabbit in all humans.
The year beckon's happiness, no matter our circumstances. And to deny the playful flow of the water rabbit is to indulge in our habits and regrets.
[00:20:42] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm.
[00:20:43] Bernice Shaw: So Norma Wong is a Zen practitioner and also a movement leader, movement strategist. And I believe just from my feeling of this reading, it just embodies the duality and the dual nature of what we can intentionally set for the year.
So kind of like light and shadow work, it reminds me of, and I like this last P part, which is around embracing the rabbit in all humans. It beckons this year beckon's happiness, no matter our circumstances. So what kind of happiness can we manifest? And then to deny the playful flow of the water rabbit is to indulge in our habits and regrets.
So I feel like the connection there is, you know, a pathway towards our happiness is to break some of those patterns of our habits and things that we regret, and I really enjoyed that as a reminder.
[00:21:41] Lawrence Barinner: It's funny that, you know, this show was about practice, so it's interesting that Yeah, there's energy in there about Yeah, like being inhabits that maybe I'm perceiving some. Judgment around like habits that are not helpful or habits that are stuck and not, not like, yeah, not habits that we need or habits that we want.
Um, or maybe that's just being like, yeah. All habits and practices, like you should let them go. Probably not that
[00:22:22] Bernice Shaw: it, yeah, I know what you mean though. I. Is there a way to embrace just the playfulness of breaking habits in and of itself as a part of, um, exploring what happiness looks like or feels like?
[00:22:38] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:22:39] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:43] Lawrence Barinner: Well, good luck to us in that, in that this year.
[00:22:50] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. I accept,
[00:22:53] Lawrence Barinner: Great. Can we do it? Do you think we can do it?
[00:22:56] Bernice Shaw: I do. I do. Because we need to.
[00:23:00] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. Well that feels like maybe a good connection to this last chunk of the interview section around reveal you. You were saying like, you think we need to the playful breaking of our habits because we need to.
[00:23:18] Bernice Shaw: Yeah.
[00:23:19] Lawrence Barinner: And so the need, I guess it might come up in your answer to this and it might not.
So
[00:23:26] Bernice Shaw: Hmm.
[00:23:26] Lawrence Barinner: this is me maybe making a messy segue.
[00:23:29] Bernice Shaw: Oh good. Look at that playfulness.
[00:23:32] Lawrence Barinner: hey, that's right. Breaking regulars, uh, Tice, how do you define your work in the world? And I will flag this may be different than the work you do that allows you to sustain your life in late stage capitalism.
[00:23:53] Bernice Shaw: Hmm hmm. Well, that's a tizzy, huh? It may be different, but it may be the same.
[00:24:06] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:08] Bernice Shaw: I feel ideally it, it's the practice or a journey of trying to align the two. And I do acknowledge there's a certain privilege that I hold and I'm positioned. And to be able to even have that as a dream, you know, to even dream in that direction is, is there a way to define our work as being, you know, the paid work that we do and also the work that we're meant to do, or we're put on this, you know, beautiful planet to do?
I don't know. I don't know, but maybe seeking it and understanding like, if there's a way towards that dream, it's by like freeing myself from what is the like. Fancy stuff versus the messy stuff, or referring myself from the binaries of something professional versus, um, what's the opposite of professional?
I'm not sure. Scrappy, non unprofessional. Teasing out those binaries too, just to force ourselves to see what are our real choices and what are the false choices. So if I'm applying the kind of theoretical, conceptual idea of work as just applying our labor into the world in a productive way, then I'll say my definition of work for myself right now is just being in relationship with cool ass people, doing cool ass things, and trying our best and having fun at it, right?
If we can, if it's possible. Fun as broadly defined as, you know, play, imagination, creativity, infusing all those things when possible. So whenever I get to do that and engage in that, that's me at my best, me and my full purpose. And it's tough. It's really tough. Cuz I think we've talked about this before, Lawrence, of like this, uh, title of being a Free radical.
Do you remember
[00:26:06] Lawrence Barinner: mm
[00:26:07] Bernice Shaw: conversation?
[00:26:08] Lawrence Barinner: I definitely do. I think about it still.
[00:26:10] Bernice Shaw: You do.
[00:26:12] Lawrence Barinner: I do.
[00:26:12] Bernice Shaw: love it. I love it so much. So for people who are listening, I've just transitioned out of being on staff at the Center for story-based strategy where Lawrence and I worked together for several years and now I'm in this, um, kind of freelance slash consultant slash I don't know, I'm calling myself a social justice energizer.
That's kind of another title that I've been playing with like, or a hat that I've been wearing. And, uh, the free radical. seemed appropriate for folks like us who are kind of traveling in between movements and in between organizations and really kind of just supporting and, you know, um, boosting work where we can facilitating work, so to speak.
But then looking up the actual like, science behind a free radical. Oh my goodness. Maybe that's not so appropriate.
[00:27:14] Lawrence Barinner: Right, the term's, not that you don't want free radicals in your body.
[00:27:18] Bernice Shaw: Right, exactly. You're trying to remove them, stay away from them. So that is something, I don't know what there's in there, there. I don't have anything profound to say except it doesn't work. But the two words put together sounds really good. Free radical.
[00:27:35] Lawrence Barinner: Yep. Working on the
[00:27:36] Bernice Shaw: a sticky, yeah, it's a meme. Take it or leave it.
[00:27:41] Lawrence Barinner: Yep. Okay. So you are someone who's trying to engage with people who are moving through the world with creativity and fun and play in imagination, and you're someone who, you know at this moment, having just left an organizational leadership position, and you were at c s S for 10 years.
[00:28:02] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:28:04] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:28:05] Bernice Shaw: A decade.
[00:28:06] Lawrence Barinner: a whole decade.
It's not like you have always been a free radical, but in this moment,
[00:28:13] Bernice Shaw: Oh, that's funny. You know, and looking back at the decade, and I love that, like numbers, right, and numerology and things like that, but being able to say a decade makes it feel so long, makes it feel like it was a wow chunk of time in your life. But in reality, and like zooming out, To think about the scope of the rest of my life that I'm gonna live, the people who came before me, those who are gonna come after me.
It's really not that long. And perhaps had I had this, um, experience or like practice of trying to be a free radical during my time at css during those 10 years, that decade, maybe things would've looked a little different. So that's a learning I will continue to share with other folks as they're trying to get through this.
Is it possible to do both? Is it possible to be more than just a free radical or be a free radical and, yeah, I think so.
[00:29:15] Lawrence Barinner: Well, you're, you're definitely answering this next question. Already around, like what are you learning about yourself as you do this work?
[00:29:24] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:25] Lawrence Barinner: It seems like you want a different orientation
[00:29:29] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:29] Lawrence Barinner: you had, so I'm curious, is there anything else that you're learning about yourself as you do the work of engaging, play, creativity, imagination, in and among movements?
[00:29:44] Bernice Shaw: Mm. And thank you for that beautiful summary of myself. I feel like I'm taking that, I'm receiving it as a mirror reflection. I know, I know. I mean, I wonder, I wonder what our movements would be like with more creativity and play and fun and that lightness that is so hard to find when there's so much of the other around us.
When there's so much of the burden of, you know, white supremacy, culture, capitalism, you know, the systemic oppression that we move in and out of within organizations or not right as individuals. Beyond that in movement and community. I wonder about that. And I think there's something to naming that intentionally and as not an aspiration.
You know, it's not like c s s and Center for Story-Based Strategy didn't have that literally as our tagline, right? Imagination builds power and that our, uh, methodology, story-based strategy steeped in, you know, creativity and play. It's just that in my practice now, as I'm able to create more spaciousness and time to reflect and pause like we were speaking to earlier, I'm able to notice those moments so much more.
I'm able to actually see, wow, that really energized me in the moment when we all freaking had a great time and not in a meeting and just laughed our asses off, you know, over dinner or over a call and just caught up with each other. And is that perhaps where the real work happens? So I'm trying to practice finding modes and ways of work that isn't actually in the traditional norms of particularly, specifically nonprofit culture is one thing I'll say, you know, is, uh, an abstraction of movement work and is, does not define movements and should not define movements, but specifically in non-profit culture, which is what, you know, my last decade has been steeped in.
Is it possible to do or be on a Zoom call? I think so, yes. Hello. We need to, we need to,
[00:32:05] Lawrence Barinner: How does what you're learning impact the work itself?
[00:32:10] Bernice Shaw: oh, Hmm.
[00:32:13] Lawrence Barinner: I mean, you're swimming in it already.
[00:32:14] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. I don't know. I'm curious how you feel about this question, like in your practice of integrating your learnings, like do you see your work evolving, your practice evolving? I.
[00:32:27] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. So maybe a sidestep question, just like when you, when you were just sharing, um, you learning about, yeah, what does it look like to do this work differently?
[00:32:40] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:40] Lawrence Barinner: to step beyond the limitations and boundaries of nonprofit culture, which is not movement?
[00:32:47] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:47] Lawrence Barinner: And when you're talking about engaging creativity and play and imagination, um, like what would it be like if our movements had more of that?
[00:32:59] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:33:03] Lawrence Barinner: I'm thinking about the ways, just like the boring ways that sometimes movement work happens.
[00:33:13] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:14] Lawrence Barinner: Not to mention non-profit culture work, like non-profit work, like so boring.
[00:33:18] Bernice Shaw: Yeah, there are like Twitter threads and memes about it.
[00:33:22] Lawrence Barinner: Totally. Like, it's just, is definitely wild how boring some of this stuff is. Um, and that's not to say that there isn't, like, it doesn't mean that work at all times needs to always be exciting
[00:33:37] Bernice Shaw: Absolutely.
[00:33:38] Lawrence Barinner: or needs to always be fun and playful. Like, yes, sometimes you do have to just take out the trash, like that's a thing.
Um, but as I try to lean into things like rest and creativity,
[00:33:51] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:52] Lawrence Barinner: that impacts the work I do in that it changes for people in the room what's happening as well as what happens beyond the room. Like, you know, I'm feeling really inspired by a practice that I learned from research generation, like when they do retreats, and I've done this a few times, when they do retreats, they don't start until 10:00 AM.
[00:34:15] Bernice Shaw: Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:17] Lawrence Barinner: Okay, wait, maybe I'm confused. It's either resource generation or right to the city. Maybe it's both of them. Um, these are two sort of movement building organizations, base building organizations. Um, yeah, the, like, the idea of starting at 10 sounds like a default
[00:34:35] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:36] Lawrence Barinner: really is about supporting people's rest and making sure that when people come to the meeting, come to the time where we gather they're like rested.
I think that gives people the possibility to be more creative cuz they're not tired. And when you are able to be more creative in a group context, like what you can dream up in terms of strategies, in terms of assessments of the problem, in terms of, um, tactics to move on your strategy, like all of that, my orientation around resting creativity shapes. I hold spaces, which I think then shapes what comes through in those spaces.
[00:35:22] Bernice Shaw: I love that.
[00:35:23] Lawrence Barinner: Okay, now it's your turn to answer though.
[00:35:24] Bernice Shaw: I accept I'm here for that room. You're gonna facilitate me into that starts at 10:00 AM and maybe has like a spacious break, you know,
[00:35:38] Lawrence Barinner: yes.
[00:35:39] Bernice Shaw: several.
[00:35:40] Lawrence Barinner: I def have been offering things lately with naps as a part of the offering, like as a part of the facilitation. Like, okay, so it's time for our afternoon nap break, or it's time for our afternoon break. It's half an hour long. If you wanna join me in this breakout room over here,
[00:35:57] Bernice Shaw: yeah.
[00:35:57] Lawrence Barinner: will play a nap.
Like I will play an audio, a piece of audio that will help you nap. Either a recording from Tricia Hersey, the nap Bishop, the nap ministry is her artistic home. She is the NA bishop. Or this talk from Jamie Tan, a yoga nidra on how to, um, yeah, how to slow down when you're exhausted. I'll just, we'll do a breakout room and I'll play that, and that'll be the break. And it's glorious.
[00:36:29] Bernice Shaw: So
[00:36:30] Lawrence Barinner: excellent.
[00:36:31] Bernice Shaw: So gorgeous.
[00:36:33] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:36:35] Bernice Shaw: And I can imagine, myself included, but some folks feeling uncomfortable with that idea, but then actually getting into it and being like, oh shit, I really needed that nap.
[00:36:51] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:54] Bernice Shaw: That's so funny. How we've developed as a culture and a society to have to remind ourselves to rest. You know? Like, when did that happen? I mean, I'm sure there's, you know, we can go into a whole thing around industrialization, blah, blah, blah, but,
[00:37:09] Lawrence Barinner: Yep. Yep, yep, yep.
[00:37:10] Bernice Shaw: but when did we become okay with it? You know? When did we become like, this is just in the water?
[00:37:16] Lawrence Barinner: It is interesting. And my guess is that we're not ever okay with it. Like we haven't ever been okay with it. It's just like we don't have enough collective power to
[00:37:26] Bernice Shaw: Mm mm
[00:37:27] Lawrence Barinner: Like the labor movement,
[00:37:30] Bernice Shaw: mm
[00:37:31] Lawrence Barinner: winning the eight hour workday, eight hours
[00:37:33] Bernice Shaw: mm
[00:37:34] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah. It's like eight hours for work. Eight hours for rest, eight hours for what, what we will,
[00:37:40] Bernice Shaw: Yes.
[00:37:40] Lawrence Barinner: and it, it was like a chant and it was like to reduce the amount of working time in the workday down to eight because it, because people needed to have a balanced life of 8, 8, 8 within a 24 hour day.
Um,
[00:37:53] Bernice Shaw: I remember what I told you about the number eight.
[00:37:56] Lawrence Barinner: no, I forgot. Oof.
[00:38:00] Bernice Shaw: It's beautiful.
[00:38:02] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:38:03] Bernice Shaw: all hours are created equal. I guess that, that's also something I've been learning. Uh, I should mention, not all hours are created equal, but your commitment to yourself in those hours, you can intentionally equalize or put some, you know, Process and planning into like, if this isn't the eight hours that's ideal for you, maybe you split it up and start at 10, for example.
That's a great like habit breaker and it feels small and doable, which is such a great way of learning new practices, like something small you can do and do a group commitment, and then it becomes a part of like a larger ripple effect and influences broader culture. You know, I love that. Well, also some days, you know, my, I'm a morning person, so some days I might wanna start early and take a long break in the afternoon and then come back at night when I'm re-energized into the darkness, the value of darkness. Like the Jeanette quote from earlier. So there's just so many ways that we can choose to organize our lives differently, and a good organizer will see those choices. But part of the like challenge, I think, is how do you get a full group to align around those practices together? I don't know. I think that's the beauty of facilitator privilege sometimes.
[00:39:26] Lawrence Barinner: Totally.
[00:39:27] Bernice Shaw: it.
[00:39:28] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. Bernice, I think we should pivot to,
[00:39:31] Justin: Last night I read theory. Today I put it into practice trying to see where I'm gonna go next on my Atlas. Hope that truth don't put me in a casket still that's better than when I try to mask it.
[00:39:41] Lawrence Barinner: yeah, let's talk about practices. So like what are you practicing these days?
[00:39:47] Bernice Shaw: I don't know, Lawrence, I feel like there's many ways we've talked about this earlier. I think my value is trying to see, or my, what I value is trying to see the small ways that we practice differently. You know, like I'm reminded of when you are saying, you know, sometimes we just gotta take out the trash.
I'm like, well, can we make it fun? Can,
[00:40:11] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:11] Bernice Shaw: can we make the practice? Or like just the task of taking out the trash. Something like unique and exciting or it doesn't even have to be unique. They just look a little bit more enticing and less boring.
[00:40:23] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:24] Bernice Shaw: Like what if Beyonce was always playing in the background while like in the moments that I needed to take out the trash, but I had a barrier to taking out the trash because I always put it off until there's like too much trash and it's overflowing.
And why are we having so much trash to begin with? You know, as a people, right? Like I, all these questions and Beyonce we're always playing in the background as a marker to remind me. Okay, less waste and more regular taking out of the trash. Maybe I would, maybe it would be different. So if I can, I don't have a name for that, but if that's a thing that I'm practicing, like.
To name it, like taking the boring and turning it into something a little less boring. That's the practice.
[00:41:04] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm. Okay. Wait, is that something you're actually practicing? Like is that a thing that you're doing or that's like a thing that you feel excited about doing but you're not doing? Which is totally fine if it's the latter.
[00:41:17] Bernice Shaw: I think I am, and I take that example of taking out the trash as actually something like in my daily life because I have somewhat more spaciousness and like, um, individual control over my time that I'm starting to see more and just try to be, you know, different about. So for example, like I have this, uh, cleaning out my closet thing that I try to do once a year, kind of Marie Condo.
Remember when Marie Condo, like feeling joy in your objects and stuff? That was a thing that was like a trend.
[00:41:55] Lawrence Barinner: Yep.
[00:41:56] Bernice Shaw: I find that to be so helpful. I've found that I just didn't stop after we watched that Netflix series, you know, and she influenced all of our lives,
[00:42:05] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:42:06] Bernice Shaw: and there's like something about that. But in other places too, not just in your closet, but like when I'm taking a shower, I have this like eucalyptus that I bought that's like hanging over my shower head because it helps me like engage in my senses in a different way than just like washing myself, which is important and we need to do, but how can I make that into a pleasurable, relaxing kind of thing?
That engages myself in the different senses that I'm used to. Right. Or as in the intended purpose. Like we had Ma Max and I, my partner and I, we noticed that we were getting like really tired of our old toothbrushes that we were using. And it was like not bringing us ju in when we were brushing our teeth and we're like, actually that's a reminder that we need to definitely replace our toothbrushes cuz he's supposed to be doing that every couple months.
Anyway, I say this because my brother is a dentist as well, and if he's listening to this ever, he would be like, why did you take so long to replace your toothbrush?
[00:43:11] Lawrence Barinner: Yikes.
[00:43:12] Bernice Shaw: You know, and just small things like that. But he was actually my, my partner Max was actually like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited to brush my teeth later today after we got
[00:43:20] Lawrence Barinner: Mm.
[00:43:21] Bernice Shaw: toothbrushes.
[00:43:22] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah.
[00:43:22] Bernice Shaw: I just like cheered that on. I was like, hell yeah, babe. We're gonna do, we're gonna brush our teeth like with joy tonight.
[00:43:29] Lawrence Barinner: That's freaking right.
[00:43:31] Bernice Shaw: Oh. So when, just the ability to have some more spaciousness. I think that's my privilege that I'm really embracing right now to notice those small things. And that's what I'm practicing.
[00:43:41] Lawrence Barinner: How did you come to the place of intuiting your way into that, that practice,
[00:43:47] Bernice Shaw: Mm.
[00:43:48] Lawrence Barinner: practices?
[00:43:49] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. Thank you teacher. Good question. Well, part of it was reactionary, so reacting to a mode of being that I was in. Prior to, you know, leaving c s s, which for all that this work and this organization that we were both a part of gave me and helped me to build. There were also some unintentional habits and practices that I fell into that I wanted to undo.
And that first thing around time and spaciousness was my commitment to myself when I transitioned out is I have to be more intentional about my time so that I have whatever uncertainty, you know, may come from like, not knowing what you're gonna do with your time. Some learning will come out of it for me, you know?
So that was one reaction to what was previously how I've lived, you know, and how I organized my time where just time wasn't necessarily in my control or the false choice of thinking that I had any control over my time. So how do I be more intentional about that? And then the unintentional, and just to speak truthfully, but unintentional habits that you develop were, you know, routine is great, but I found myself in this cycle and this mode of just a daily unintentionally to what I was doing.
You know, it's like my eating habits and my understanding what I'm putting into my body, my basic hygiene. Like am I brushing my hair today, right? Some even moments during the pandemic because we have been more in shelter in place, right? Like in the same environment over and over again. That just kind of become habit that I was, um, yeah, not happy about or maybe becoming unhealthy.
So I think that's how I came into this new mode. Who knows if I'm gonna find joy brushing my teeth, you know, like for how long or trying to change out my toothbrush, but at least that noticing of it. Was the first in a long time.
[00:45:56] Lawrence Barinner: I mean, it definitely feels authentic to how I understand you as a person.
[00:45:59] Bernice Shaw: Mm, mm-hmm.
[00:46:01] Lawrence Barinner: Doing something unexpected with things, um, feels, feels like a, a pattern or it feels like a trend. I see. And thinking about your toothbrush as a way to Yeah. Engage, play and joy like that tracks because I think of all my nibbling and how hard is to get them to brush their teeth
[00:46:27] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:46:28] Lawrence Barinner: and making it fun does really work.
[00:46:30] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Aw, thank you. Layer Bear.
[00:46:34] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:36] Bernice Shaw: I'm blessed with a partner who's very, like, has this, um, childlike innocence, and I say that in the most loving, respectful, reverent way, and he teaches me a lot about that.
[00:46:50] Lawrence Barinner: Well shout out to Max.
[00:46:52] Bernice Shaw: Woo woo.
[00:46:53] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. Well we have a few minutes left and I'm curious first Yeah. Maybe, is there anything else you wanna say about things you're practicing before we transition to our closing?
[00:47:08] Bernice Shaw: Oh, I guess I should say, oh, it's not this answering this question because I'm not currently practicing this yet, but I am going to clown school,
[00:47:20] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my gosh. Say more.
[00:47:22] Bernice Shaw: so stoked about it. Well, I don't know if it'll develop into a practice. Who knows what I'm gonna learn at clown school, right? Who knows what anyone learns at clown school, but I'm gonna for sure learn how to laugh at myself, and that's my goal going into it, is this practice of lightness and awareness of things in you that maybe you are ready to let go of, but you can laugh at it.
You can hold it lightly
[00:47:49] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm.
[00:47:49] Bernice Shaw: tightly, however you need to, and let it go. And I'm really excited for that. And then maybe that'll help me be more intentional about my humor.
[00:48:01] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm. So you're not always a person who's like, get it.
[00:48:11] Bernice Shaw: Lauren has known me for so many years and I tend to be the butt of jokes because I don't know when I'm being funny or not. And I'm always trying to ask people for affirmation when I try a joke or a pun. So maybe this will help me make all my dreams come true. Like when I was younger. When you're in elementary school, your, you know, teachers ask you what you wanna be when you grow up.
And my answer when I was in kindergarten or first grade or whatever, was I wanna be funny when I grow up.
[00:48:42] Lawrence Barinner: Wow.
[00:48:45] Bernice Shaw: So I would go to the library as my Cavor ass would do even at a young age, and I would check out joke books and memorize them.
[00:48:58] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my God. Bernice.
[00:48:59] Bernice Shaw: I'd studied like kids joke books. Looks,
[00:49:03] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my God. I did not know this about you. That is incredible.
[00:49:07] Bernice Shaw: yes.
[00:49:09] Lawrence Barinner: Wow.
[00:49:12] Bernice Shaw: yep. Mm-hmm.
[00:49:15] Lawrence Barinner: Wow. I love this. Well, I'm really, I'm, I was glad the first time you told me, and I'm extra glad now that you're gonna go to clown school and like Yeah. Hopefully get to tend to a child part of you that really wanted something like
[00:49:30] Bernice Shaw: Hmm. For sure. I'm excited to La Bear and I also have this like, you know, it's conceptual, but I do feel like the role of the clown, you know, in like Theater of the Oppressed or pedagogy of the oppressed, like there is the role of the trickster or the jokester, the joker in facilitation or in doing work where it reveals the truth.
And sometimes that's about yourself. Sometimes it's about the group. It's never to prescribe or offer, but the role is meant to be like, can we just unveil the thing that's happening right now in this moment that's so obvious, but unstated. And I think that's part of what I'm trying to maybe apply in a future practice depending on what happens with this clown school.
I don't know the politic of it,
[00:50:16] Lawrence Barinner: Sure.
[00:50:17] Bernice Shaw: some self-reflection. That's a like sub goal of mine. Primary is like my own individual exploration, just having fun. And then maybe the, you know, byproduct of it as I've been practicing is, can this work happen outside of the actual quote unquote work?
[00:50:33] Lawrence Barinner: Hmm. We will see.
[00:50:36] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. I don't know if all wear a red nose though.
[00:50:44] Lawrence Barinner: Okay, well I'm gonna follow up with you about that afterwards.
[00:50:47] Bernice Shaw: Yeah.
[00:50:49] Lawrence Barinner: I'm excited to, um, yeah, to connect with post clown school, Bernice, and see how the funny goes.
[00:50:58] Bernice Shaw: See how the funny goes.
[00:51:00] Lawrence Barinner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So what are you doing these days, if anything, that you want to give a shameless plug for?
[00:51:09] Bernice Shaw: Hmm. Ooh, this is a great opportunity for me to put into, hmm, from my voice into the ether, into the broad universe, this intention that I have to start the Imposter Society. And I don't know what it's gonna look like yet. I don't know the form yet, but again, it's embracing our identities as imposters in a society that isn't made for us, in a world that wasn't created for us within structures and systems that really didn't have anything to do with us or intentionally works against us.
So can we embrace that identity and reclaim the other in a way that helps us all become fuller and whole ourselves as we build whole and fuller movements. So I think that's the next thing. I'm putting out in the universe that it's not even shameless because it hasn't happened yet, but let it become shameless in the future.
[00:52:09] Lawrence Barinner: Great. Okay, so who else should I be talking to on this show about practice and why?
[00:52:19] Bernice Shaw: Well, you know, the first person I'm gonna say is Christine Cordero,
[00:52:23] Lawrence Barinner: Christine Cordell the.
[00:52:26] Bernice Shaw: who is one of my best friends, mentor sisters in this work, but was just recently ordained in her zen practice at the dojo. She, uh, is um, now a reverend of, I suppose, I don't know the right term. Anyway, she's ordained as a zen practitioner, so I think she would be great because practice is everything and I've learned so much from her, from her practice as well.
And I believe the way that she's integrating her Zen practice into her movement leadership work, her organizational leadership work is something that would be really great to tease out, see what she's learning, see what's, you know, kind of shifted and changed for her. Christine Cordero?
[00:53:15] Lawrence Barinner: great call.
[00:53:17] Bernice Shaw: Yes. Yes.
[00:53:17] Lawrence Barinner: We'll be reaching out for sure.
[00:53:20] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. Yay.
[00:53:23] Lawrence Barinner: Okay, last question. Will you share something that you're consuming these days? Can be a book, a piece of audio, podcast episode, a poem, something else, food, I don't know, whatever.
[00:53:38] Bernice Shaw: What's coming to me is actually sharing with folks that my copy of this book that you recommended is, Literally at my doorstep now, my order just came in. And this might help other people who are in a facilitation or some kind of group space practice, but language is a place of struggle. Great quotes by people of color,
[00:54:04] Lawrence Barinner: Ah. Yep.
[00:54:05] Bernice Shaw: by tram one.
So I haven't consumed it yet, but it's literally sitting at my doorstep. And the timing of the universe is amazing cuz we're recording this today and I'm really excited for it. I wonder if it's the book that you got, the Jeanette Winterson quote from.
[00:54:26] Lawrence Barinner: It's not
[00:54:27] Bernice Shaw: Ah darn. Okay.
[00:54:29] Lawrence Barinner: that quote came from James Clears 3 21 newsletter,
[00:54:35] Bernice Shaw: Mm, I got you. I got you.
[00:54:39] Lawrence Barinner: but I'm excited that you got the language as a place of struggle book.
[00:54:44] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. Well, can I ask you what inspires you from that as like a part of your practice? Why you sent it to me?
[00:54:53] Lawrence Barinner: That book in particular?
[00:54:54] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:54:56] Lawrence Barinner: Um, I mean, real talk, it's just because like, I have a, a list of quotes that I often print out when I facilitate
[00:55:07] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:55:10] Lawrence Barinner: you know, I feel a often people who are white. And are quoted
[00:55:19] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:21] Lawrence Barinner: are borrowing or informed by non-white people,
[00:55:26] Bernice Shaw: Absolutely.
[00:55:27] Lawrence Barinner: by bipo communities.
[00:55:30] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:32] Lawrence Barinner: And so, sometimes, not, sometimes often I'm like, okay, I, I have this quote
[00:55:38] Bernice Shaw: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:39] Lawrence Barinner: by this white man and can I find a way that a person of color has said this in language that feels more accessible to the people in this room?
I'm facilitating, for example, it's like I'm often like doing that practice in particular and like, you know, I definitely quote white folks all the time and like the balance of the quotes in the world I feel like are. 10 towards like white people whiteness. And so I just straight up up a practice of like, okay, who can I like, diversify the quotes on this wall?
Um, and it has just been a great resource for that.
[00:56:14] Bernice Shaw: Totally.
[00:56:15] Lawrence Barinner: as someone who's facilitating more now, it's just like, oh B, you should check this book out.
[00:56:19] Bernice Shaw: Yes.
[00:56:20] Lawrence Barinner: So that, that particular is why, like that's a very specific reason. Um, but I also think that when I imagine, I know that different languages help you conceive of the world differently.
[00:56:34] Bernice Shaw: for
[00:56:34] Lawrence Barinner: so for folks of color who come from lineages where English is not the dominant or first tongue, the way you can say
[00:56:42] Bernice Shaw: Raising my hand.
[00:56:44] Lawrence Barinner: Hey, that's right. Yeah. Like you can just think about the role differently. And so the way you say things, even when they're translated into English can be different. Like, can you just be fundamentally different?
I.
[00:56:57] Bernice Shaw: Absolutely. A hundred percent. I so appreciate that. Because English is weird, period.
[00:57:08] Lawrence Barinner: Period. Full start.
[00:57:10] Bernice Shaw: have a dysfunctional relationship with it. Just gonna put that out there. A hundred percent truthful about it. And I think this thing you've shared with me, it just reminds me of the importance of, or the book that you shared with me and the use of it, practice of it, et cetera, reminds me of how important it is to name people and like ideas.
By people of color, cuz that's also a part of the practice that we're trying to disrupt too, as facilitators of color in a world that's dominated by especially like white facilitators. So thank you. I'm excited to add to the toolbox.
[00:57:53] Lawrence Barinner: Can't wait to see what quote you pull from it.
[00:57:56] Bernice Shaw: Oh, I'm excited to keep sharing back and forth with you. That's what we're gonna do.
[00:58:00] Lawrence Barinner: Yeah. That's what we do. That's what we do here. We love it.
[00:58:03] Bernice Shaw: Yes. Ooh, I have a, I have a challenge for us.
Yeah. As inspired by this last part of our conversation, in one of our future quotes we send to each other, can we send a quote from ourselves to each other?
[00:58:21] Lawrence Barinner: Oh my gosh.
[00:58:23] Bernice Shaw: Okay. And then vice versa. Something you've heard from me, something I've heard from you.
[00:58:28] Lawrence Barinner: Okay. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna sit with that. I don't know if I can accept it yet.
[00:58:34] Bernice Shaw: You sleep on it, Lawrence, you pause on it.
[00:58:36] Lawrence Barinner: I'll sleep on, that's right. I'll, I'm gonna take a pause. Maybe I can grow into that and then we'll see.
[00:58:44] Bernice Shaw: Okay?
[00:58:44] Lawrence Barinner: see. Thank you for the challenge, feeling myself grow even with the ask, which we left. Okay. Thank you, Bernice.
[00:58:53] Bernice Shaw: Yeah. Lawrence, thank you.
[00:58:56] Lawrence Barinner: Grateful for your time and all of the ways you have moved in the world that brought us together and you to this point in your life where you could say yes to your first podcast interview.
[00:59:10] Bernice Shaw: Oh gosh. You know, Lawrence, this isn't easy, but your commitment to it is inspiring, so I'm looking forward to hearing the other interviews, seeing after the fact what you learned from this process.
[00:59:26] Lawrence Barinner: Amazing. Cool. All right. Thank you. Bye.
[00:59:30] Bernice Shaw: you. Thanks.
[00:59:31] Lawrence Barinner: you too. Bye.
[01:00:07] Justin: What do that change look like for you? What kind of change in your life would do? How many changes with the change won't change till your, like two? What kind of change are you fighting through? Huh? What? But do that change look like for you? What kind of change in your life would do? How many change with the change won't change till your, like two?
What kind of changes? Like you fighting through? Huh? What?