Angie Colee (00:00:01):

Welcome to Permission to Kick. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching, fear in the face, and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Coley and let's get to it.

Angie Colee (00:00:19):

And welcome back to Permission to Kick with me today is my new friend, Erin Oli. Say hi.

Erin Ollila (00:00:25):

Hey everybody. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having me on your show today.

Angie Colee (00:00:30):

I'm excited to talk. Well, tell us a little bit, we're just gonna jump right in. No preamble whatsoever. Tell us a little bit about your business and what you do.

Erin Ollila (00:00:37):

Uh, that's okay. I love that there's no preamble. I completely love the podcast that you like, jump into the meat and potatoes of things and you don't talk about complete randomness forever. So I am Erin o so nice to meet everyone. I am a website copywriter who specializes in seo. I am also a copywriting coach for small businesses who really either want to DIY their copy cuz they just have all the hard eyes for copywriting or because financially they just can't invest yet, but they wanna make sure that the work that they're doing is really working good for them. Uh, besides that, I am the host of the Tuck Copy to me podcast, which launched at the end of 2021. So I'm working on a year now and it is, I'm sorry.

Angie Colee (00:01:17):

I love that name.

Erin Ollila (00:01:18):

Thank you. No, thank you. I love the name too. And I, when anyone else loves the name, they officially become best friends in my book. Yes. So yeah, it's great. I love my show. It's, I'm really just proud of myself for jumping in and doing it cuz it's something I wanna do for a while and I put off for far too long and it's been great.

Angie Colee (00:01:36):

Yay. Well that sounds like a lot. What got you started down this path as a copywriter?

Erin Ollila (00:01:41):

Oh, that's a good question. So I actually, uh, prior to writing at all, I was working in the administrative, um, mental health fields and administrative and case management. Actually, I did both ends and I loved so much of it. I loved learning about people. Um, I loved hearing their stories. I loved, um, being involved in the decision making, but I always knew it wasn't really what I wanted to do. Uh, I, what I thought I wanted to do was to write books and teach college. So I went back to get my MFA in creative writing. I did get that. Super proud of it. Love it. But I, if you know anything about teaching college, you know that it pays extremely minimal unless you are tenure track. Mm-hmm. . And to get into a tenor track is an extremely difficult thing to do. Um, so I dashed to my college dreams and started my own literary journal.

Erin Ollila (00:02:28):

Cause I wanted to make sure I really stayed current in the writing world. Um, and then finally I was just poking around the internet one day working in human resources. I mean, not actually at work, but that's what I was doing at the time. and found a content writing job that was local to me. Um, it was a pay cut, but I took it because I was like, you know what? At this point it had probably been like two or three years post MFA and I still wasn't writing professionally. And I was like, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna jump in. I will say there is privilege involved because my husband, um, well actually was he my husband or he was going to be my husband pretty much around the same time I started was cover gonna be covering me for health insurance and that mm-hmm.

Erin Ollila (00:03:05):

That helped with a pay cut. Right. But, um, so I jumped in and I loved it. I learned, this was in 2014 or 13 maybe. I learned so much about SEO in the like, good old days of seo, which is days I miss those days of the Google Keyword Planner. Um, but it was cool for me because I, um, have adhd. I have been diagnosed since my mid twenties and I know that I like to gamify things in some ways. So SEO when I first started was like, oh, wait, if I play the game the right way and, and the right way, truly like no blacklist, like no, no black hat SEO or anything like, yeah. Using good keywords, writing really well, speaking to consumers, telling some stories within our marketing. Um, if I play the game well, I get to be on the first page of Google.

Erin Ollila (00:03:55):

And boy was that fun. I would be like, let's test this keyword. No, let's test this phrase, but what if we do this? And it was just really exciting to see. Um, sidestepping, I always say marketing is a science where it's really strictly just a hypothesis and testing and adjusting to be able to like learn and, and grow, right? So with seo, especially when I first started, it was very much like, um, what can I do? Like how can we change? And I think it set me up so well to start running my own business. Um, after leaving that company, I started actually working with really huge brands as a contractor and not tiny businesses. It was awesome because then in some ways I kind of grew even more because the marketing budgets allowed for a lot more hypotheses. Mm-hmm. than small business marketing budgets allowed more.

Erin Ollila (00:04:47):

Um, and so I was able to just, you know, write really great content work from really huge brands, wonderful people, grow and learn. Um, but at some point I realized that while I thought I was a small business owner, you know, do my own thing in the world, what I really was was a contractor working on their schedule, on their projects. You know, so a handful of times when I was working with big brands, contracts would naturally die, whether it was just the project ended on its own and they didn't, you know, renew or they decided to shift gears as part of that hypotheses testing. And suddenly, you know, my financial planning had to be adjusted because I lost a client from a bad thing. But just because I was on their schedule. So this is a long story for the beginning of,

Angie Colee (00:05:34):

No, I love this. I'm like furiously writing notes cause I've got so much to circle back to. But please, please continue.

Erin Ollila (00:05:39):

But basically, I think that that was the best way to start my own business. And I, I was joining a lot of, you know, back in the heyday of Facebook groups, joining a lot of groups, getting to know people, being on masterminds. And I realized, gosh, nobody really teaches small business owners how to do any of this. This, like, I am so fortunate that this comes mostly naturally to me. You know, my undergrad was in, uh, public and professional communications, which is basically a marketing ish thing. You know, I'm Asian myself a little while now because there was no such real thing that was the beginning of social media. But, um, you know, I, I've studied this, I've learned this. It's just a talent and a skill that I have. And then I have this like, dear friend of mine who maybe they're graphically inclined, let's say, and they can do that side of marketing mm-hmm. ,

Erin Ollila (00:06:27):

But they have zero clue how to do seo, get themself in front of new audiences, how to actually like, make messaging that isn't about them, but it is about the need of the clients, right? Like, so yeah. So I mean, really that's the whole business evolution. And once I started to see my friends floundering and see the ways that I myself floundered by not following the best practices in marketing, I decided that I really kind of wanted to pivot to work with smaller businesses. And, you know, they're not tiny. I mean, some of them could, you know, be like making a ton of money every year. And some of them are, are just still in that solopreneur phase where like they've got the vision, they've got the dream, and they are just working towards it. So it's really great to be able to have that varied type of clientele to like see transformations that to some people look so minuscule, like the first website being up.

Erin Ollila (00:07:24):

You know, like a business owner who's been doing this for a while might be like scoff at that and be like, oh gosh, I've been through so many iterations of my website . But for that person who has been like, you know, I hate, I hate, this is the wrong word here, but like quote unquote hustling to start their business, right? Like, sorry, I know that's the wrong word. But I mean, like, you know, really just giving it their best to get traction to get clients and they don't have a website. And the shame that comes from that, the shame that comes from like feeling like an imposter to see them finally launch the site that they mostly DIY is so awesome. Like, that is why I do what I do. I just enjoy that. Or like I said, the opposite spectrum, you know, like I still work with a few really big brand clients and to see the, like, um, one of the clients I work with is Hills, um, pet food.

Erin Ollila (00:08:13):

Mm-hmm. . And I write just literally dog and cat content. I am, I like to think of myself as a vet veterinarian who just shouldn't touch animals because I know a ton. I've written hundreds and hundreds of articles about dogs and cats. Um, but I'm saying this though because it's like, I can see, like, I, I'll get an email from someone who'll say like, holy come only, I never knew this. I was just about to feed my dog this. And I was like, Ooh, let me check quickly online if my dog should eat this or not. And I found your article and I was like, oh my gosh, I could have just poisoned my dog. So thank you so much. Like, so like, there's a, there's a spectrum of how, um, how transformation happens in my business. And it took me a really long time to see that as the perk and not like judge my success based on how much money I made that year or how many like leads came in.

Erin Ollila (00:09:10):

But to be able to, you know, get like an email from someone who, like, for example, went through my testimonial course and they reported back to me that they had like, spent two years of running a business, terrified to ask clients for a testimonial, but they realized how simple it was once they kind of like followed the structure that I set up for them. And now all of a sudden they've got like 10 and their whole website is so much better. Those are the things I like. I feel personally that success comes in in my business. Oh yeah. Because, I don't know, I think I've always, maybe it's an ADHD thing, but I've always been the gold star getter, right? So if you gonna, you're gonna send an email that says like, thank you so much for those testimonial like, suggestions. I'm gonna be like gold

Angie Colee (00:09:52):

Star for the day. There are so many different varieties of adhd. I'm, I'm recently diagnosed, um, suspected most of my life and kind of joked about it too. But literally just a few months ago, finally was like, maybe I've reached the end of my, you know, I've developed all my own tools for coping over the years. Oh God. Yes. And so yeah, I get that. And I was just laughing like, but I was definitely a gold star one growing up. And then of course as many smart kids who grew up in the American school system are familiar with where you're just teaching how to memorize things and how to fill out tests. And some of us are really good at taking tests and don't actually learn anything, then I get out into the real world and think, well, I just coast through everything. This will be easy. And go, oh, this is really hard. Yeah. And even people smarter than me are working really, really hard. And this kinda sucks.

Erin Ollila (00:10:40):

Same, which I think is why starting a business was like such a shock to my system. Mm-hmm. , um, well I had experienced some of that like, uh, failure growth post-college. I'd say my first real glimpse of that was being an undergraduate. And again, you know, like we, I'm just echoing what you say. Like, I, I worked hard enough to get things handed to me, if that makes sense. Not handed because I didn't deserve it, but because I just, um, was a high achiever, right? Mm-hmm. , but I,

Angie Colee (00:11:09):

And you know, which levers to pull to spit out the treat basically.

Erin Ollila (00:11:12):

Yeah. I, and, and also in the sense of like, you know, there were things I excelled at that helped me get there, right? Mm-hmm. . But, um, I remember, I like to say I half-assed so much thing, so many things in, in the right way, right? Mm-hmm. , I'm an undergraduate and I'm thinking because it's always work. I could half-ass my way into graduate school. I think mentally I just assumed that I was really, I was a good student. I was so passionate and excited about going to graduate school that I was going to get into graduate school. And I applied to five graduate schools, uh, five tough graduate students. Let me, let me give myself a little credit here. . And I get into a total of zero of those graduate schools. Oh

Angie Colee (00:11:53):

Man.

Erin Ollila (00:11:54):

Right? Um, that was the biggest like, shock to my system cuz I was like, well, what does one do now? Like it? I had not mentally prepared for that in any way. Um, so it'll give you that little background. That was like the first time. Luckily the next time I applied to graduate schools, I got into every single graduate school I applied to. But it was a span of, I don't know, maybe six years or a little less than that. You know, there was a while that I took off before trying again, fast forward now to jumping into so, so entrepreneurship at the time. And I just, I, you know, I guess we fall in the same patterns where I, I knew I had the skills mm-hmm. prior to this in my, in my copy SEO job I talked about, um, I worked for insanely lovely people and they taught me so many things.

Erin Ollila (00:12:41):

And I was the managing editor. So I dealt with all the clients, I dealt with all the writers. So I had, you know, what I thought was enough experience to kind of just jump in and do this on my own. But then I started a business and I'm like, wait a second. Like, what is bookkeeping like? Mm-hmm. . Wait a second. Like, what is marketing? And I know that sounds really weird, right? But you have to remember, I'm doing this for really big budgets and they, while I get to make decisions and tell them what, like, strategy to take, they are the decision makers, right? Yep. Now I have to be the decision maker, like, oh no, thank you. You know, so there's just like cycle after cycle of being the beginner as a small business owner. And that hasn't stopped. I'm a a little over six years now at the time of recording for, um, being in business on my own.

Erin Ollila (00:13:36):

And it just, I'm constantly reminded of this is that I have to set myself up for my own success by remembering that being a beginner is healthy and good. And everything that I learn is just preparing me for something more. Versus being that young ADHD child, high achiever who expects success and feels like a complete loss of self when things don't pan out. I mentioned the podcast being started last year and you know, again, i I do this to myself over and over again where I think I've got things figured out and I knew I'd have to learn some things, right? Like I like to do on my own before I hire out in my business. So that way, let's say a contractor is sick or whatever, I can just jump in if I need, if need be. I'm strategy, how to edit. Thank you.

Angie Colee (00:14:29):

Yeah. Too many people hand off entire portions of their business and they get frustrated if that contractor goes away or the terms change and they don't know how to do that thing. Like, no, don't do it.

Erin Ollila (00:14:39):

And partially ADHD wise, another thing I have to keep checking on my own self is that I can't do things last minute. And it still does happen, and that's okay. But it's that like, let's say I really wanted to, to squeeze an episode in, and my editor doesn't have time. I'm not gonna make their job any harder. I wanna be able to just squeeze that episode in myself at two o'clock in the morning by editing it. But I don't know how to edit audio. I don't know how to like, um, make audiograms like obvi. I don't know how to like, not just edit the audio, but it's like equalize and all those fancy terms that I don't know the terms. I kind of know what I'm doing, but I don't know the terms for mm-hmm. . So yeah, while I have learned this cyclical lesson over and over again, here I am in the beginning of my podcasting days, feeling like I just wanna cry because like, why can't I figure this out?

Erin Ollila (00:15:29):

Why don't I know this? And I really like to be transparent with these things, which, which is why honestly, I'm so excited to be talking to you because, and being on this show, right? Because I'm as that person who's sitting there wanting to cry, you're six in business because I don't have any clue how to podcast yet seeing my peers or people who maybe even were a step ahead of me in the like online business world just seemed like they're having, or people who just start out, let's say that too. Having all the successes in the world. It, it's, you know, the judgment, the imposter things there. And it's like, this is, what do you mean? Let me tell you, friends been in business a really long time and half of the time I have no clue what's left from right. Mm-hmm. . And that is okay, that's great because if you're listening the way I explained it, you are hearing it as, it's okay Erin, like we're all new at this. Like, this isn't a skill that you knew you had to learn it, right? You're hearing the rational side of this. Mm. So take that, take the way that you're looking at my story and reflect it back on yourself when you do Yes. Anything. Because we do not all have it figured out at all. We're just learning.

Angie Colee (00:16:43):

Well, and this is like, uh, some people in the future may hear this after the branding has already taken effect, but like, ooh, slightly secret sneak preview for everybody that listens to every episode. There's a rebrand of the show coming. And that's the seed for that started several months back when I was in Vegas. And that was really the first time I started talking to people that I didn't yet know. Like, that was when people started pitching me to be on the show, which was first of all, a very cool experience. Yeah, I get to meet cool people, I get to geek out over stuff yay me. But that also came with people who didn't know the show, didn't know me. Were listening to this for the first time. And they go, who is your, who is your audience? I wanna know a little bit more about who I'm speaking to.

Angie Colee (00:17:23):

And so I started telling this story where I was like, okay, the easiest way I've got to explain who I'm talking to or who I imagine I'm talking to is beginner, early growth stage entrepreneurs, folks who are excited to go to that marketing conference, that business conference. And they see that person on stage going, I decided 7 million to my bottom line with one easy hack, blah, blah, blah, blah, the big super polished presentation. And we go just like that person. And then they don't realize, they don't have that experience yet in their business. That that person that just gave that presentation on the stage is the same one at the baring. I just lost my biggest client and I got hit with a lawsuit and I dunno what I'm gonna do. Like, basically the point of that is, even your marketing heroes are making it all up as they go, myself included, Erin included. None of us know what's going on at any given moment. We get the context on the situation that's going on around us, and we use what we know to make the best decision we can. And sometimes they're winning decisions, yay. Sometimes they're not. And it really kind of sucks. But the point is to just keep going and learn what you can learn,

Erin Ollila (00:18:23):

Right? I mean, cause you know, honestly, I'm actually not that good at science, even though I like comparing marketing science. But if we think about science in just the, like the elementary school science hypotheses stuff, right? We, there's no such thing as failure. Like science is just seeing a lesson. Like it didn't go you, it didn't go how you expected. Well mm-hmm. , let's analyze that, right? Why didn't it go, what happened? What can we take from this? How can we adjust? Right? Like yeah, a hundred percent. You know? Yeah. And I love the way that you described that because again, I won't say that I don't fall into that imposter syndrome category. I, I still do, I still feel, I get frustrated do myself. Mm-hmm. , I cannot tell you how many people I've met in the online business world that I was in awe of before I met them.

Erin Ollila (00:19:13):

That doesn't mean I, I was not in awe of them later , but let's just say like so excited to meet them. Very impressed with them that I sat down and talked to like on a one to one business, um, you know, networking, anything like that. And then I come, come to find out they are flailing, not truly like mm-hmm. . I mean, they have no, no profits. They're like severely in debt. They like, and I've just realized, gosh, it's been really nice to grow slowly and mm-hmm. . I'm not saying that has to be that way for everyone. If you wanna grow quick, cool. Go for it. If that's what, if that's what you wanna do, put all your effort into it. Yeah. I grew slowly in growing, slowly I was able to raise my children at home with me with no childcare, which was fun. Let me tell you that, that was like the whole conversation and itself.

Erin Ollila (00:20:00):

But truly, it, it was, I mean, it was a wild ride, but that's what I wanted to do, right? So I was able to raise kids. I was very able to have babies and I was able to make a, a good amount of money for the time I was able to work. The, the growth, I was able to experience the types of clients I was able to serve. And it's, it's been great, right? So it's just mm-hmm. recognizing that how it looks on the outside of a business is not always what's happening on the backside. And like you mentioned, you know, that person who's like crying into their drink at a bar because they just got sued, doesn't know how to proceed in that moment mm-hmm. . And they're not going to go, if they're a keynote, they're not going to go and say, oh, here's my lesson and here's how you should approach this, and this is the big lesson of this show, but guys, guess what? I just got sued and I don't know what to do. Right. Cause it, that's just not how it works. But they still,

Angie Colee (00:20:56):

Yeah. My mentor once, sorry to, to jump in there is like my mentor explained it in a way that just totally made sense because I am a raw and vulnerable share, right? But I've learned this up. You're raising your hands. Me too. But, um, I've learned over the years, the difference between, and this is what he taught me, sharing from scars versus sharing from open wounds. It's like when you're raw and still in it and you like, you are one half breath away from devolving into tears and collapsing on the ground in a dramatic heap. Hey, be human. Have that cry. Maybe don't do it on a stage when you're giving a keynote. If you can help it, like go process the rawness of that emotion. Go to your trusted circle, remind yourself that you're a human and it's okay that you're struggling with this right now. Figure out some steps. And then when you can talk about it without crying , then you get to share that with people and say, here's what I learned. Here's a really hard experience, but not while you're going through it, give yourself time to heal. Don't, don't invite some germs into there and let it get all infected. You

Erin Ollila (00:21:55):

Know? Yeah, totally. Uh, permission to sidestep for a second here. Yes. Because I think this is a really great lesson for people who are trying to incorporate storytelling into their business. Um, I, if there's like one of my, um, what's that saying when it's just like you can't sticking points. If there's any sticking point that I have with this marketing world, it's that, um, whether it's from email marketers, content marketers, copywriters, it's that we are teaching people to tell a story, but we're not keeping that any freaking clue on how to tell a story or what stories to actually tell. So I can't tell you how many people that I talk to about their, about pages, whether I'm auditing it for them and giving them feedback or trying to like wire frame it with them, where I'm like, no, you, you don't need to talk about being bullied in third grade here.

Angie Colee (00:22:43):

No,

Erin Ollila (00:22:44):

You are a bookkeeper. Right? that, like I, and I, I am not trying to tease any of my past clients. Like I say it directly to them and we talk about it. There are places, or let me, let me actually give you a flip side to that. I do have a client that I worked with who is a coach who was, um, had, was a millionaire, lost all his, all his money because of a drug addiction. Mm-hmm. , who was homeless and then bought, uh, built up a new million plus dollar business as a realtor. So I say this and obviously I have a right to share the story because, you know, we've, we, this is not a secret. Yeah. We, we incorporated it into the website copy. Why? Because the story was so aligned with the importance of what he's currently doing it, right? Mm-hmm. ,

Erin Ollila (00:23:30):

He, he had success previously. He experienced something very difficult and something that he wanted to be vulnerable about and share. And it related so much to the current story because the homelessness, right? Like you lost it. You lo you lost that one. You're building the expertise that you've lost with the millions, right? You become homeless and then you jump into this real estate career that you had to take yourself out of homelessness, rebuild, and regrow. And now you give people the opportunity to have homes. So the opposite spectrum, it's the example of a very dramatic story that is aligned with the business. But when we talk about storytelling and marketing, I really love to remind people that we need to determine the relation of the story to the message that we want to get across. Mm-hmm. , absolutely. Number one, you can tell a dramatic story if you have one, if there is a reason to do so.

Erin Ollila (00:24:20):

Because storytelling from a me perspective is going to get you absolutely nowhere. You are not writing a memoir anywhere in your marketing. Nowhere. Zero you, not even your bio. There's no memoir in marketing. If you want to write a memoir, I have an MFA in creative writing, I encourage you to go in. Actually my MFA is in creative non-fiction. So nice. You extra are encouraged to go write it . But consider, consider when it comes to, um, storytelling that the story is for the person hearing the story. Yes. So please, please stop sharing these crazy, wild stories that have nothing to do with your business because consumers hate it. They recognize it right away. They are going to be turned off. And the reason I feel so passionate about this is because it's just poor advice, right? Like the people telling the story are doing it cuz they think they're doing the right thing and they're getting the, the worst, uh, response to doing it. It's people being turned off.

Angie Colee (00:25:25):

I love to tell people, remember, it's not about you. Yes. They're coming to you on your about page, your website to learn about you on the surface. What they really wanna know about you is how you can help them, how you have experienced that relates to what they're going through. Every story that you tell on your website has to be through that lens of a, okay, how does this help them? What do they need to know about me that helps them. It can't just be, like you said, I love that you used that example of like being bullied in third grade. So what, how does this, if I'm your client, how does this help me? What is this the relevance to me and the problem that you're helping me solve? Or the thing that you're helping me achieve? If it's not relevant, cut it. Cut it with prejudice, get it outta there.

Erin Ollila (00:26:10):

And that's why I tried to share those two examples of like bookkeeper, I mean, I actually don't know a bookkeeper who has anything about bullying on their website. I made that one up. We're it up? That's why I shared those two because it's like you could share a bullying story if maybe you're a coach and what you help people deal with is like past trauma, whatever, right? But it's just if you want to be authentic. Secondly, you don't even need a dramatic story to be authentic. Let's just say that It really don't, I wasn't involved in this. I do not have, I mean I have have had dramatic things in my life, but business, business story, I, I, I came into my like this online business world being like, wait, I mean guys, I don't know how to tell you this, but I, my husband kind of forced me to start the business.

Erin Ollila (00:26:52):

He was like, dude, you got the skills. Go do it for yourself. Because we had a baby who just never took a bottle and never slept. And we were going in insane. And his job like um, hours were changing. So he's like, why don't you just do it yourself? I'm covering the insurance. That's my very exciting reason for why I started a business, everyone, right? So like I felt for a while like, oh man, I don't have a dramatic story. I need a dramatic story. No, I was just sleep de deprived and I had a husband who really believed in me and I'm grateful for him. But , I would've probably not started my own business. So you don't need a crazy story to be relatable to show your expertise. And if you do have a crazy story, super cool, just decide whether it's relevant or not.

Angie Colee (00:27:35):

Mm-hmm. , absolutely. I mean like we could go super granular. I have a dramatic story, but it's just because I didn't even know that this was an industry before I entered it. And I've told this story on the podcast before so I won't belabor it. But you know, in essence, I was working in the entertainment industry for years. That's where I thought I would end up. And then when I got laid off, it was like, oh crap, what do I do now? I could not find a job for the life of me. I was applying to a hundreds of jobs. And so, you know, when a moment of panic when that idea of, oh right, somebody told me about this book about writing once that I should probably read. And then I just completely switched gears and went all in on copywriting. That was like the first part of the sob story. I had to move in with my friend. I had to like just re collect myself and get over the grief of letting go of this identity of working in the entertainment industry. So that was like one and then was coming face first, like hit a brick wall of realization when I'm living on my friend's couch working as a copywriter. I don't know the first thing about business or copy, I just read this book and decided I could do a thing and I don't know what I'm doing. So like what do I do

Erin Ollila (00:28:40):

From here? PhD, just jump in and do it right?

Angie Colee (00:28:43):

I can do this. And then I figured out, okay, well then I probably need a job so I can at least get good at copy and then maybe I can come back to the business thing. Cuz like I suck at this business thing right now. So I did that. I went in house for several years and learned that, but in the process in there, lost my house again, wound up living out of my car and then I had to like leave my job and figure out the business for the second time around with all of that head trash around. I'm a failure. My first attempt didn't go really well. So it's like learning to tell the relevant stories that matter to people so that you can show them the transformation or the struggle that they need to hear in order to know you. They don't need to hear all of those stories from me before they learn to work with me. If they're learning to leave their job and start a business, then maybe that's the one they need to hear from me. If they're wondering if they can start a business, then maybe they need to hear about me living out of my car trying to start a business. Like it's always about them,

Erin Ollila (00:29:36):

Which is such a good reminder of like why, you know, it's very, you have to be very careful about what messages you share on your website pages. Mm-hmm . But that you don't need to have all of this on the pages either, right? Like there are many different ways you can create content to share these messages that for the right person it will be relevant to podcasting, blog posts, uh, social media, right? Like those stories can all exist in those different avenues and they can drive back to the website or the website can drive you to those facets of different marketing. Yeah. Um, because the stories are important. They are, and the people who need to hear them will find them. But we have to just, you know, again determine how can I present myself as the expert who is going to help you get, you know, achieve your desire, get past your problem, those kind of things. Mm-hmm.

Angie Colee (00:30:23):

, that's the other downside to people thinking, okay, I need like a sob story that really helps people understand that I'm a human and I understand what you're going through. The flip side of that coin is positioning, right? Mm-hmm. . So I have these great stories about how I can, how I lived in my car to follow this dream of being a writer so that I can show them, I made it out, I figured it out, I had the success. So if all the stories that you're telling are like, oh my god, woe is me, poor story. And like that's not to, to all over anybody's trauma cuz we've all been there, we've all had hard lives and I send all of my love to you. And also if you don't ever share any good parts, then you're just somebody that's on the internet of and how do I know that you can help me? Cuz all you're doing is whining about everything that's ever happened to you. So like, and I say that from a place of compassion, no judgment whatsoever. Yeah. If you don't have a triumph, if you don't have an arc, then all that's happening When we come to your site to learn about you is everyone sucks. Oh man, I feel really sorry for you and I'm not gonna hire you.

Erin Ollila (00:31:25):

And I think this is a trap that is so hard to dig your way out of, right? Mm-hmm. . Cause like a lot of my copy coaching clients, I am able to see the patterns that they don't see when it comes to their content. So for example, just using this as an example, like the, the like life is so hard kind of a story whether it is written well, whether it is about them or about their clients' needs, but I'll, but the collection of the whole is, gosh, this is extremely pain point driven. Yes.

Erin Ollila (00:31:54):

If that is the marketer you want to be or the way you wanna show up, cool. But I wanna point out to you that I think that you don't necessarily have enough empathy or desire or any of those kind of things, right? Mm-hmm. . So the, the exercise I always give my clients that I actually think is really easy is to look at anything you've created or any type of like a journaling prompt, like those kind of things and do the exact opposite. Mm-hmm. . So a lot of the times during kickoff calls for a website copy projects like the full ones, I ask my client, um, what, what is something that drives you absolutely insane about your industry or about like your competitors? And I, I see like the like face like, oh you're not gonna put this on my website, are you? And I'm like, no, but what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna listen to what you have to say so I can determine, people love to say things like that.

Erin Ollila (00:32:40):

Like the value props in that like what I do differently from my competitors is this. Or, uh, I had a coach who once told me like kind of the fact about how she just really hated that in the coaching industry. Um, everything was so pain point driven and like, I want to help you get transformation. And she felt so like ethically incorrect with that because you know, she'd been coaching corp in a corporate sphere forever and it just felt wrong. Yeah. So that gave me the insight to know that she was someone who wanted to have either like more empathy driven content or, um, content that is shows them that like, um, what I, I'm totally forgetting the word that I always use my clients, but basically like you can do this, you can have that like to support direct client, um, coffee. Yeah. So, you know, it's, look at your, if you're doing this on your own, it's like look at the social media post and say what is the exact opposite of this? If it's a story about like you failing as an example, I'm gonna throw some air quotes on the word fail, but uh, then say, well how can I look at this failure as a success and then write that post. Mm-hmm. , you don't have to throw out the old post, but guess what? You know how two pieces of content that you can use.

Angie Colee (00:33:44):

Yes. Oh my gosh, I love that. Cause that's something that I'm constantly challenging like writing teams and clients to think about too, is that just because you have one idea doesn't mean it's one idea. I like to think of ideas as I call it. It's like a, think of it as a 20 sided die or a very shiny gem and you're just turning it over and over and looking at all the different angles until you find the shiny one that looks really good right now. Yeah. And that's the story that you can tell today. But maybe there's an opposite story of this. Maybe there's a top 10 tips version of this. Maybe there's a thing that everybody gets wrong about this version of this. So like there's lots of different ways to look at a story and it doesn't all have to be like heavy on the emotions. I love that you said all that because that was what really changed business for me, especially in the last several months as I've taken on a partner and like really changed gears moving out of copy and coaching altogether, um, and moving more solidly into business coaching and strategy. And the thing that drove me nuts about my industry to latch onto that prompt like a bulldog with a bone, is that it's so complicated. And I blame us, we're marketers, we need proprietary stuff to stand out. Right?

Erin Ollila (00:34:51):

But then it's a hundred percent marketers fall. A hundred percent. It's

Angie Colee (00:34:54):

Our fault. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. But like I worked behind the scenes of some of the biggest product launches out there. I've seen multimillion dollar weeks and like these huge promos and I've also seen 250 page email documents. That's just the emails. It doesn't account anything else that we created for the launch. And then afterward I'd have people come up to me, look, I want a launch like that. I want that result for my business. And I'd say, do you also want the expense and the stress and the four months of prep plus all the contractors you're gonna hire? And now the anxiety of I just spent all this money on this launch, is this actually going to work? Yeah, I don't think you do. I think that you could create this like 10% effort launch of that big one and get maybe 20% of the results of the big one and then just rub or stamp that over and over again and run it until it stops working.

Angie Colee (00:35:43):

Which hint hint, it rarely stops working unless the market shifts. That's the beauty of this business. If you find something that works, ride that thing into the ground, you can do it. And so I started to discover this joy of helping people streamline, simplify, buy back their time, do something that seemed too stupidly easy to be true. And then when they get these outsized results, they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. How minute This could be way simpler and then I could actually have time for my family and like enjoy my life. Yes, absolutely you can. And that's not to make this sound overly simplified because as we established at the beginning, there's a skill set with being a business owner. There's a learning curve and experimentation and it is a difficult thing but worthwhile to find your niche and your specialty and what makes you happy and fulfilled getting up every day. But it also doesn't have to be, like you said, hustling doesn't have to be, I work 20 hours a day because it's better to work 20 hours a day for me than it is to work 10 hours a day for the man.

Erin Ollila (00:36:47):

No. Yeah. And, and but that's another trap, right? Like you start to do that and you have to dig your way out of like the conditioning of like, I have to do this for myself.

Angie Colee (00:36:59):

Mm-hmm. , we talked about that right before we started recording cuz you told me this great story about notifications on your phone and like how you were walking around with the zoo. Do you wanna dig into that one a little bit more?

Erin Ollila (00:37:10):

Yeah, sure. So we were just, we were talking about being a d d in general and just , uh, really struggling like with, you know, notifications popping up and thinking that, um, you have to like, well actually your, your brain is pulled to pay attention the notification. And I was mentioning that while I know that I should stop my notifications, there is like an inner panic of having to keep them on because I must be notified. So the story kind of just went to like me with my middle child. I think she was about one years old at the time, and I was with my best friend and her two children at the zoo during the workday, uh, during a day that I had planned to go to the zoo mm-hmm. . So I did not have any emergencies happening around me with work yet. I was so glued to my phone because I was just so, so much anxiety about like missing something mm-hmm.

Erin Ollila (00:37:59):

Or like, I thought I had to respond to my clients within like a very quick timeframe even though they weren't freeing it like an emergency. Again, I was definitely newer to business at this time, but I was just so glued to it that my friend who's super empathetic person is like, Hey Erin, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you on this. Okay? Did you start your job so that you could come to the zoo with your one year old and not experience it or just carry on your phone and stare at it? She's like, I'd rather you carry it around and take a lot of pictures, but this like, checking your email thing is just not working for me. And I was like, oh gosh, yes I am. Yes. Mm-hmm. , I couldn't like, you know, you're, you, you get in these cycles of feeling like you must do it in a certain way and, and it's hard to recognize it in your own behavior that like, this isn't, this isn't how I wanted to be a business owner.

Erin Ollila (00:38:56):

I didn't mm-hmm. , like I didn't leave a job that I had a, a really enjoyable, um, job duties and nice people I worked with to start my own business so that way I could go to the zoo with my child and not pay any attention to her or the beautiful animals at the zoo. Right. No, I did it because I wanted to have I, that's the whole reason. Right. But yeah, I, it was really, it, it is, it is still a hard lesson for me to, to separate this. So I am not going to act as if I'm, I have achieved this understanding of like separating the two, but at the moment it was a really great realization for me to be like, get check yourself, Erin. Like, what the heck are you doing here? Like, you're at the freaking zoo. Like, go look at the elephants, right?

Erin Ollila (00:39:36):

Like, stop it, like throw the phone, leave it in the car cuz it's not serving you. And zero of the emails needed to be answered. There were, and even I like to remind myself I'm a copywriter and I don't, I, I very rarely do sales like copy. So there's zero emergencies in my right. There are zero emergencies. I have, I've definitely done some lunch copy before and it, you know, it can get a little bit emergent in certain situations if, you know, like campaigns are failing or like the, there's data loss for, for needing content right away that I'm not trying to act like copywriting doesn't have emergencies, but for the most part, you know, I focus on seo, um, website copywriting and longer form content. There are zero emergencies in my job. Mm-hmm. . So it's like I've kind of like emergency proofed my life when it comes to business. But I, I do, I have to constantly remind myself of that cuz it is a lesson I have not fully grasped yet.

Angie Colee (00:40:33):

Oh yeah. Well, I mean, and just like you mentioned at the beginning where you feel like you're at a cycle where you're always at the beginning and figuring out some new skills, that's something it took me a long time to learn that too. And this whole conversation started because I have this whole pre-recording spiel that I go through about making sure your notifications are turned off. And I tell this gooby little story about, I used to put my phone in do not disturb mode, but my mom can get through do not disturb. And she has uncanny timing for knowing when I am on a podcast. And so now I put my phone in airplane mode and then we just started going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my gosh, like desktop notifications and phone notifications and all these things that are begging for your attention at different times.

Angie Colee (00:41:10):

And then the struggle of dealing with ADHD on top of that, where every single time something like that pops up, your brain goes, I need to deal with that right now. I need to deal with that right now. Yeah. Especially if you're forgetful like me where it's like if I have object permanence issues, if it is not in front of me right now, I will never ever remember to do that thing . But that's exactly why turning off my notifications actually worked for me because now I can't see that ping read it and then forget about it. I have to go manually check my email when I need to spend time doing email. I have to go manually check by Slack. And then as a result, it led me to communicate to my clients, look, I'm not sitting here waiting for notifications to pop up. You can ping me all you want. I will get back to you when I am online. Uh, and I, that's actually become a selling point for some of the people that we do some of the like higher touch consult consulting with. They have Voxer access to me, but I tell them, you can send as many 2:00 AM messages as you want. I'm not gonna answer you until tomorrow, but yeah, feel free that is there for you. Ping me as much as you want. I will not get that notification, but I will be checking

Erin Ollila (00:42:13):

Which is the best way to set clear expectations, you know? Mm-hmm. like, yes, I, I am a copywriter, but what I think people don't understand that goes into marketing or I wish, what I wish people did understand better is, um, client experience is something that, you know, there's lots of words for it cuz I also incorporate lead experience into this as well. But like, client experience should really drive a lot of marketing decisions. So we look at like websites, user experience. Well we, if someone comes to your website, like we can't rely on them to just go wherever the heck they want. That's the like mm-hmm. a completely unstrategic website folks, we need to like be their tour guide and point them in the right direction. Flip side, you start working with a client, like if you set the boundaries and you set clear expectations for what's going to happen, your clients are going to have an awesome experience, which pushes me to the end of the, the working relationship.

Erin Ollila (00:43:03):

Everyone I actually created, of course on testimonials because every single person I spoke to says, oh, I can't get testimonials. Oh, they're so general, they're so vague. I don't know what to say. Well, if you have a really good client experience, guess what's gonna happen? People are gonna say nice things, right? Mm-hmm. like people are going to say like, oh, thank you for this or this worked great, I loved that. It's so much easier to either then get a te if you're waiting to the end to collect testimonials, get it or be be a good like listener and listen to what people are saying throughout the process. Uh, write it down, ask them right on the spot. If you can add that to like a testimonial like result mm-hmm. at the end, right? So it's like this is all working together from the second elite finds out who you are to the end of a project, which is never really the end because past clients in many industries still stay current or you know, even if there's a distance of time of working together.

Erin Ollila (00:43:56):

But it is all related to each other. And that is also all related to marketing. And if you are working with a copywriter or a marketer who doesn't get that, that is gonna be one of the very few times that I tell you that you should probably look for other people because you don't need a copywriter to be a strategist. Those could be the same or they could be different. Yeah. You don't need, you know, a, a copywriter to be an SEO specialist could be the same, could be different. But you need any type of marketer you work with to have an understanding of how to set and pot hopefully exceed your client ex expectations and experience.

Angie Colee (00:44:35):

I love all this too because it's, it's the same thing with the notification anxiety, right? We talked a little bit about when the notification pops up, so does the anxiety and then that feeling of I can't turn it off because that's gonna cause even more anxiety. It's the same with setting expectations around clients. I think because it causes us a whole lot of anxiety. Do I have the authority to tell them that this is how to do it? And then there's this other misinterpretation that is common when, when we talk about setting boundaries, right? And setting expectations that people think this is like Dwayne John Johnson laying down the law. The rock has spoken, you will not violate my boundaries. That's not the case here. There's no laying down of the law that, that there's no enmity here in setting expectations. Setting expectations and boundaries simply boils down to knowing what you need to do your best work and communicating that clearly to the other person in a way that they understand.

Angie Colee (00:45:25):

So what I need to do, my best work is to not constantly be answering Slack paine. So I will tell people, and there are certain situations where somebody has hired me to be a consultant, to like a founder of the company and they wanna add me to a Slack channel so that the whole team can talk to me. And I've literally said to them, cuz this is just my sense of humor and how I relate to people. I love you, I love your team. I'm sure they're wonderful people. I can either do the job that you hired me to do, which is to be your ally, your consultant, and you talk to me. Or I can answer Slack pings and talk to the team all day. I'm happy to do either one of those. I suspect I know where you would like me to focus my attention, but like, let's talk about this. Do you want me in Slack? Suddenly they change their minds to, oh, oh, maybe I'm not gonna add you to Slack. I'm like, yeah, that's what I thought. I'm not here to answer their questions. I'm here to answer your questions. So like, let's just get that clear right now.

Erin Ollila (00:46:14):

It also all goes back to like what we think that we need, right? Mm-hmm. . And like if we take that to like being a business owner, like we think we need to do things a certain way. We think we need to have them. So using the, the instance that you just shared, like that business owner speaking to you thinks, oh, gotta add to my slack because this is what is done. Mm-hmm. . And that's why you hire people like Angie in this instance is she can say that's like, that's a great idea, but it's not the right idea for this. Right? Like,

Angie Colee (00:46:43):

Yes,

Erin Ollila (00:46:44):

I don't know. I just think for me it's like, um, you know, I've been around the block for a while now, so I've seen the good, the bad, the ugly of um, uh, service providers, let's say. Mm-hmm. . And I just really think like you do not want a yes person to work with you in your business. Nope. I tell every single, especially if they're new to me, client and not a referral. I tell every single one of my client, um, excuse me, my leads, I want you to find a couple other copywriters. I mean, whether you do a discovery call with them or not, it's up to you, but I want you to research them because I might not be the right person for you. Mm-hmm. , and I like you, I like your project, so I want to work with you. But if there's anything I've learned in my business, like I want you to want to work with me because that's how you are gonna get the best results, not me.

Erin Ollila (00:47:31):

Mm-hmm. , well really nothing to do with me. But if you come into this being like, yes, this is the right person, yes, I like her because of x Y and Z you are really going to know that. I'm gonna tell you how it is in a very kind way because I am like mm-hmm. , you know, a little conflict avoidant, but I'm direct, right? So like, here's the, here's the thing. Like, I'm not going to necessarily like be mean to my clients or too bold, but I'm going to say, let me hear you out. Like, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's, let's hear it out, let's talk about it. And then I promise you, I will say that's the wrong approach. Mm-hmm. , you are allowed to do that. Cuz I am not the decision maker in your business. Yes. But I Yes, am gonna do right by you and tell you that I don't think that you should approach it in this manner, and I think you should try this.

Erin Ollila (00:48:16):

Uh, I always tell everyone, like, I've only found this out recently that my favorite phrase in the world is it depends. Mm-hmm. , I think that it, like, it should be like marketing colon. It depends. It depends. Yeah. Um, and, but I will tell you, I always give you a reason for what, depends when I know that like, uh, the one-on-one individual case, right? Mm-hmm. . So I just, I really think that, you know, when you hire someone to work with, whether it's for business coaching, for copy coaching or copywriting, whatever, photography, interior design, whatever mm-hmm. , I think that you need to like get to know them in the sense of like, how can they help me and what are their strengths? Because like I mentioned before, I actually didn't realize until earlier this year when I interviewed someone in my podcast that not all copywriters are also strategist.

Erin Ollila (00:49:06):

And I know that sounds silly cause been marketing forever, but I am a strategist, right? So, and that's just how I started, right? Mm-hmm. , like I started being the higher level thinker, the data analysis person, the client communicator. So I have that skill. Um, and then I, I, I interviewed a copywriter on my podcast who is a sales copywriter and she's, and I said something about strategy and she's like, actually Erin, I don't do like a strategy like mm-hmm. , that's not my, that's not my strong suit, that is not my job, but I am a good writer. And she is, right? Yeah. And I realize like those are the, like, um, I as a consumer struggle with who to hire, like contractors for my house, let's say like . Um, I wish in high school there was a class that was like, here's how to vet a contractor.

Erin Ollila (00:49:54):

Or like, here's what to know about a bathroom remodel because a another, um, lesson of being the ADHD high performer that's like, what the heck do I do now? Mm-hmm. , like, I bought a house and I'm like, actually even today I was like, did, who do you call if you want a plumber to install a new tub in your house? Like not all plumbers install tubs. Like, do I just call any plumber and say, excuse me, are you a tub installer? Can you recommend me to one? Right. Anyway, so I'm getting off topic, but my point is , um, as a consumer, I think the best way to make that decision is to find out these little intricacies of what's involved. Not necessarily if you really liked them, not if they have like the coolest website you've ever seen or mm-hmm. , anything like that. It's find out like, are you gonna do strategy in addition to copywriting? Are you gonna do SEO when you're giving me the website copy mm-hmm. , because again, that relates back to expectations. People think they're getting one thing and they may not be. So I always really like to tell people like, do your research and check out other people because that will super help. You know? Yes. If you're gonna be happy at the end result because you know what to expect from me or them.

Angie Colee (00:51:07):

Mm-hmm. , I love that advice and I think it is so grounded and something that instinctively people don't know to do. Yeah. It adds a lot of extra steps. Yeah. It means it's going to delay the decision making process, but also you're going to know a lot more and feel a lot more confident in your decision on the other side versus having this whole like, well I talked to one person and maybe they're kind of it like that type. My business partner and I recently came to the realization that every contract that each of us in our own businesses and together as partners, every struggle, every bad client experience that we've ever had, stemmed from talking ourselves into something that didn't feel right. And so we have a rule now, and we even tell folks that we're talking to about working, look, if it's not a full body, hell yes, it's a no.

Angie Colee (00:51:52):

And that's fine. Maybe it'll be a full body hell yes. Later. That's totally fine. We don't hate you because you say no when the time is right. But if you're not fully here with it going, hell yeah, Angie and Chris, we're gonna work together. We're gonna do this. I'm so excited. I can't wait to cut you a check. Like if the energy dies when you wanna cut me a check, cuz you've lost all faith in me. I don't want it. I don't wanna be constantly proving myself to that. Like, let's just, let's tap into the energy and ride that momentum all the way to the finish line.

Erin Ollila (00:52:19):

Yeah. I think that's why I'm so passionate about helping people who don't necessarily have the same budget as like some of my more like, well, all of my done for you clients because I, you know, I'm not new to this. I have 20 years of publishing experience. I published my own literary journal for the past 10 years that has won awards. I have been published in a ton of places. So writing, working with me as a copywriter isn't necessarily cheap. Right. But then again, I think of myself in those early days in business and like, how the heck do I do my bookkeeping? Or how do I do this? Right? And I rec, I realize like, you know, like such that drive that like wanting to do something and not knowing how, and I, especially I think because I love marketing, right? Like, I love, well I hate marketing and I love marketing, but I, but the, the me that loves the marketing, like I want people to have a great message.

Erin Ollila (00:53:12):

Like I really want them to succeed. And I know that marketing is the a hundred percent driver when it comes to things like this. So I don't wanna punish them just because they can't afford working with me. And can I, can I help, help everyone? Absolutely not. But I would much rather have a client that comes to work with me, like for one month on, you know, four coaching calls to get to diy, their own website and like, you know, get their lead magnet idea started and their email newsletters kind of like, you know, germinating for them. I would much rather have someone like that see success because they want it, right? Mm-hmm. . And I'm not saying that's for everyone. I'm not saying any copywriter also needs to be a copy coach, but I think for me it's like I'm very fortunate that I can do both in my business that I've, you know, I've, it's tough to straddle the line because marketing, I have to talk to two very different people, but I don't think I could do one without the other because mm-hmm. ,

Erin Ollila (00:54:06):

I, you know, there's a lot that I get from helping clients who are DIYing. And then there's also the other part like, I'm sorry to bring up like, I'm getting astray again, but like with the, with the done for you people, right? Like I know that those people that I've worked with, that I'm really excited to work with and they're excited to work with me, like it's just gonna be a fun time for the both of us. Mm-hmm. , they're gonna get their first draft and they're gonna be like, no freaking way. Yeah. Yes. How did you do this? As if I'm like, I I love it, right? Like mm-hmm. , they think I'm like a magical fairy that just like used my wand and tapped into their brain and got their words on paper, right? When in reality, everyone, a good copywriter is really just a good listener who asks the right questions. I'm not gonna try to sell myself out here, okay. But I simply just talk to my clients and then regurgitate what they say to me. ,

Angie Colee (00:55:04):

Yes.

Erin Ollila (00:55:04):

Not joking. So, you know, it's like for them, like if they're excited, if even if finances are like, you know, they're pull they're adjusting so they can afford it. They have to be excited about working with me because yes, it's just, you know, if not they're gonna get their copy and they're gonna be like, oh, okay, um, this is really good, but can we do this or can we do that? And it's never about the, the few times that has happened, it has never been about the copy. When with clients being unsatisfied, it's always been about the fear that they have for whatever in business. Um, one, you know, sometimes as they don't know what they're actually offering and they might think they do, they might explain it to me, but then they see it and they're like, I don't actually do that. . Um, but again, you know, I'm, I I could belabor this play, but it's really just, it's just, it's interview people. It is do your research and I you are just gonna love, you're gonna love the end result more if you are just as invested as a, as a consumer.

Angie Colee (00:56:10):

Yeah. I love everything about it. I mean, if we had to tie it up in a bow, it's failing your way forward. Uh, yeah. It's really connecting with people and understanding the value that you bring to them, um, and sharing your own story, vulnerability and triumph. Um, and I love this just punctuating this full body. Hell yes, there's a whole other level of magic. And I know that I mentioned that business could be simple and I'm kind of obsessed with that now, but it's, it's astonishing to me how much that idea of full body hell Yes. Has played into how much I have simplified my business over the last several years because it just flows in a different way when both of you are coming at this from, oh my gosh, I can't wait to get this done. And, uh, for two ADHD folks telling you that this is the way to get focused and this is the way to get the good work. I don't know. You might, I'm not an expert, but you might wanna listen

Erin Ollila (00:57:06):

. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, the only way I could kind of like tie my bow on this by hearing exactly what you said is if you separately from working with someone, if you as a business owner don't have that, like hell yeah. Like feeling about your business. Cause I think I've been there and, you know, I'm assuming I have too, just from the business shift that you mentioned, if you don't have that recognize that's a great sign to pay attention to. It does not mean you need to change in the moment. Um, I've experienced it myself to be like, well, why do I suddenly just feel ugh about having to do this, right? Mm-hmm. , and maybe I didn't make a huge shift. Maybe it's just as simple as like, I, I, I hired a proofread, well I have a contract proofreader, right? Because I just got so sick and tired about worrying about grammar when it wasn't even that bad, but I was worried mm-hmm. ,

Erin Ollila (00:57:51):

Right? So it could be the tiniest shift or it could be a whole business pivot, but if you're not feeling hell yeah. About your work with a caveat that it is work is still work, right? You can't expect it to be sunshine and butterflies, but if you're not failing, hell yeah. Just, you know, reflect on that and determine if anything needs to change and just know that it's totally okay if it does change. Like, you know, nobody is, uh, following you around with a magnifying glass to make sure that you are perfectly following a life path that is just all, all fake, right? So feel hell yeah. About things. And that is the best I think we can do for you friends today.

Angie Colee (00:58:27):

Absolutely. Oh man, I feel like we could ge keep going for like three more hours, but I'm gonna say we have to do a part two and in the meantime, tell us more about your business and where we can find you online.

Erin Ollila (00:58:38):

Yeah, absolutely. Um, try to get two ADHD people to stop talking together too, can also be really difficult. D um, I, as I mentioned before, I am in SEO website copywriter and copy coach. So the two ways I really love serving my clients best are done for you website copy or copy coaching. And that could be anything, anything you need. Writing, it doesn't have to be your website, it just helping you like walk through the plan of how to outline it and what to say in each of those sections really, I think goes a long way to giving you the keys to like help yourself. Um, but if you wanna find me anywhere, my website is my name. If you misspell it, no problem cuz Google knows me pretty well by now that they'll send me in the right place and she's, she's

Angie Colee (00:59:21):

Winning

Erin Ollila (00:59:22):

Page one buddy. It's page one. Um, and then, um, my podcast, I'd love for you to join me over there. It is still kind of a baby since we're working toward a year about probably by the time this podcast episode goes live. Um, but it is called Tuck copy to me. It is a marketing and messaging podcasts that really focuses on tiny series at a time. Um, I've been covering things like brand messaging, seo, website pages, customer experience, um, and I've got some series coming out in the new year about social media and it's, I think it's gonna be really fun cuz I have a lot of people to speak on the social media topic. So join me in over there. I'd love to have you.

Angie Colee (01:00:05):

Excellent. All right, thank you so much for being on the show and stay tuned for part two everyone.

Angie Colee (01:00:13):

So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you wanna know more about me, Angie Coley and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permission to kick ass.com. That is all one word together, permission to kick ass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a Hot, fresh and Ready Podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Coley. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it, comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some mess.