Angie Colee (00:00:01):

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. A podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend Heather "Heather" Campbell. That's an inside joke from Eat, Play Launch in Las Vegas, you had to be there, but I promise it's hilarious. Hi, Heather, say hi.

Heather Campbell (00:00:31):

Hi Angie, how are you doing today? I'm so happy to be here.

Angie Colee (00:00:35):

I'm so happy to have you here too. I mean, we just spent like 20 minutes laughing and giggling and telling stories and going, oh, shit we gotta record. So I know this show is going to be amazing and full of high energy and I'm so excited. All right. So tell us a little bit about your business and what you do.

Heather Campbell (00:00:53):

Oh, so my business, I am a branding and digital marketing strategist, which is just a very fancy multi syllabic, lots of syllables to describe words and pictures, but I put them together very, very well and very strategically and so I've had my own business since 2014. I actually just turned eight. Oh, so I'd be a third grader if I was a human being, um, which I'm super excited about, um, because I really found my voice as a consultant and then once I was a few years into my business and I had the opportunity to work with a variety of different clients, as opposed to running branding and marketing for the same, you know, a big company, same business where everyone like working together to advance that business. I started to realize that companies, anytime they were getting hung up or stuck in their marketing, like they could be big.

Heather Campbell (00:01:44):

Like they could seriously be like a multi-billion dollar real estate company or an entrepreneur just starting out wherever they were getting stuck in their marketing. I was like, oh, they're just missing this one step in the process and so there's something that professional marketers and you'll know this because you're in this, in the creative world is that there is an order to marketing operations and a marketing professional would never, ever, ever think of skipping over any of the steps because they're also foundational and they all build on each other. and I thought, huh, that's so interesting because I had a pretty formalized process having worked, you know, having had my business in place for like two or three years at that time and I thought, oh, maybe I should start working with entrepreneurs and creating an online course for them. Then I sat on that and meditated on it for like two years.

Heather Campbell (00:02:35):

Because even as a professional, I was so nervous to take that step out there. It's such tender work, you know? So when, oh my gosh. So if somebody call, I bet you're the same way. If somebody calls and asks me for my opinion, oh hell yes, am gonna give it, but when no one's asking and you're putting yourself out there just saying, Hey, everyone, I'm open for a business and this is how I think you should do branding and marketing. No one's asking it completely changes things. So I sat on the sidelines for two years and that nudge in the back of my shoulder, just saying, do this, do this. You can help people. This is like, your, this is like your purpose. Like I, I would sit there and meditate and I would literally get these divine downloads saying your mission is to help many, help many.

Heather Campbell (00:03:25):

Cause I used to think I am not a healer. Like I am not an angel card reader. I'm not a psychic. I'm not like, I am a marketing person whose sole job is to get someone to think about positively about a company. So they either buy the product, work at the product or like buy there, work there or invest in it. Right, like that is my whole mission in life and I just thought, gosh, how can I, how is this a noble profession? But I think it's entirely noble. So then about two years later, I started to get my constructs together and two years after that I launched my first online course.

Heather Campbell (00:04:01):

Yay.

Heather Campbell (00:04:01):

So I know. So it took four years from probably even more that, because I remember having the idea. Wow. If people only knew what I knew about marketing.

Angie Colee (00:04:10):

mm-hmm.

Heather Campbell (00:04:11):

And then, or, and brand, and really branding too, which is something that is a lot of entrepreneurs think I'm not brand, I'm just a single person, but they're looking at brand in a, in not in a wrong way, but just in a way that you would sort of feel or see it if you didn't do this for your entire career.

Angie Colee (00:04:28):

Oh yeah.

Heather Campbell (00:04:29):

You wouldn't, you wouldn't know.

Angie Colee (00:04:30):

I've told the companies that I've consulted with, you're creating a brand, whether you're doing it intentionally or not, you might as well be intentional.

Heather Campbell (00:04:35):

Yeah and like it's happening with, or without you, my friend and it's so much better when it happens with you. Absolutely. So it's way more exciting too. Like that's how, especially for an entrepreneur, right. A big company is going to maybe sometimes get it a little bit more. Um, but an entrepreneur, especially it is exactly, it empowers you in such. I get so geeky about it. I was in Ohio visiting my family for a long time, a few months ago. And people would say, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, I'm branding and marketing. But then I do online courses for entrepreneurs and they'd be like, wow, you are like super passionate about this. And I'm like, I am, because what I love about branding is that it absolutely allows you to get like a two feet on the ground. I know who I am. I know how I show up and I know where I'm going and it informs everything and just makes everything easier for everyone, mainly the entrepreneur.

Angie Colee (00:05:32):

Exactly.

Heather Campbell (00:05:32):

Cause you don't have to guess like, who am I today? How should I show up? You know, all, that's all that angst.

Angie Colee (00:05:38):

And well, I mean, I think that's a great point too, because how you show up on a day to day basis changes. I was telling you right before we started talking that this morning at this place that I'm staying at, somebody pulled the fire alarm at two o'clock in the morning for shits and giggles. I don't know why. Right. So I'm running on fumes today and how I show up today is different from yesterday and different from tomorrow just because of life, man life.

Heather Campbell (00:05:59):

Oh my God. That just, I just think divorced parents, um, the teenage kid is visiting his dad.

Angie Colee (00:06:05):

Probably it's just somebody causing trouble for the hell of it.

Heather Campbell (00:06:08):

Exactly.

Angie Colee (00:06:09):

And it's fun. Like I, I think I was naturally inclined toward branding because I just got it from my screenwriting training, interestingly enough. But it just made sense to me because how Dr. House talks about something and approaches a problem is so completely diferent.

Heather Campbell (00:06:24):

I love House, yeah.

Angie Colee (00:06:25):

from like Douggie Houser from like, uh, what was that? There was the one, the good doctor. I know, like I know that he was on the Autism spectrum and I was like, so they, so there's three doctors all in a show, how they speak is completely different and when you picture them, if you're familiar with those characters, you instantly know, all right, how is bad tempered going to beat you down?

Heather Campbell (00:06:48):

What's he addicted to, Vicodin?

Angie Colee (00:06:51):

He was.

Heather Campbell (00:06:51):

or something, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:06:54):

He was. So I was interesting. I wanna, you said so many good things and I have, I feel like a pile of notes to get through, but I know that your journey to starting your own business was an interesting one because I think in the, in the entrepreneurial world, there's kind of this, like you're called to it and I don't think you were necessarily called to it so much as forced into it

Heather Campbell (00:07:14):

Yeah. Pushed, pushed into it maybe. Oh yeah. I love to share this story just because it is, it has a very happy ending, but it is so interesting. So, I think it's funny and interesting. And so I was a, your standard American burnt out executive, but the thing is, is with burning out is you don't know what's happening when it's happening. Because as you move up in the ranks, everyone gets a little, slightly more miserable and everyone around you is like struggling and isn't really balancing their life. Like they're not eating, they're not sleeping. It's like bragging rights to see whose vacation was ruined by work, you know, and how you had to show up. And this is also like in the, you know, mid, mid nineties to early two thousands. So I hope, my kids are 22 and 26. And there's way more balance. Like when I tell them like the hours I used to work, when I started off working at an agency in Chicago, my daughter who works at an agency, a PR agency is like, why would you even do that? And I'm like, because that's just how it was and if you didn't and if you didn't do it, they were like, you, you would not, at least that's what I thought is I'm not gonna move my way up. And so..

Angie Colee (00:08:27):

There was that pressure from up top, like you're not a team player. If you're not killing yourself for this role, how bad do you want it? How bad enough to die for it.

Heather Campbell (00:08:35):

And no. And then I'm from the Midwest where your parents raise you. Like, you are lucky that anyone is even paying you to work. Like you're lucky to even have a job. So you show up 15 minutes before your boss, you leave 15 minutes after. And I was definitely one of those people that did that thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna be so great. But when your life gets so out of whack, and then when I had kids, like, it was just, it, they say like, you can put a frog in water and turn the heat up and it will just sit there until it boils to death and that's what burning out is like, it's not like if you threw me into a pot of hot water, right. That frog would jump right out. I would jump right out.

Heather Campbell (00:09:13):

That's not how it works and I was also from a really big family and there was a lot of fighting growing on when I was growing up. So I got really good at fighting. So if anybody wanted to fight me at work, oh, I was glad I was a glad participant. And I would sense things like, oh, I'm just giving them like a little, like tap on the chin and I wasn't, it felt to them, it was like, I completely decimated them. So I was great at the work and I was not great at the relationships at the, the last company I was working for. And so I got this call one day from my former boss who lives in Florida. He was gonna fly out to Denver to fire me and you just know what that call sounds like, because he was like, oh, I'm gonna be in Denver tomorrow.

Heather Campbell (00:09:59):

And I'd like to meet with you. And I'm like, oh, you can just tell on the tone of their voice. I'm like, oh, do I need to prepare anything? And he is like, no. And I just, I called my husband immediately and I'm like, I am gonna get fired tomorrow. And he's like, how? Like you've been working, you work like 80, 90, 100 hour weeks. Like you travel all the time. Like you're doing all these things. Like how could that possibly be? Because I was not good at the relationships. And so my boss comes in to fire me. And it's really funny because I work in the industry and he had all women who worked for him. And so we were all like, we loved to hug him and he did not like to be hugged. And so when he came in, I just said, just to be clear, there shall be no hugging today, since I'm getting fired from my job.

Angie Colee (00:10:42):

Oh my gosh.

Heather Campbell (00:10:42):

So as he was firing me, he said, um, would you be open to consulting for us? And I was like, yeah, I was like real sassy. And I'm like, yeah, like I, can I swear on this show? Can we swear? Yeah, absolutely. I was like, oh yeah, I fucking got fired from my job today and so I had no idea what to do. Um, I was, so I just remember being so embarrassed. Um, that was probably one of my first feelings. And I knew that I did not have a good relationship with my job. So I knew trying to get another job was not going to be anything that I should be doing at the same time. I was the breadwinner in my family. So me losing my income was a huge financial blow.

Heather Campbell (00:11:28):

And it's not like I was sitting on stockpiles of savings or anything like that. Like it was a really scary time. And so I remember it felt like I was on, on the ledge of a high rise building that was like three inches wide where I was barely hanging on. And that if I, if I took any action, if I tried to succeed or even fail either way, I was gonna gonna fall off this building. Right. So it just felt really awful and I remember just putting a shout out to the universe, like, and not even knowing what that really meant in any way, nothing about nothing about anything and I was just like, please universe, can I please get ledge? Like I just need ledge. I just wanted a place where I could just get two feet on the ground.

Heather Campbell (00:12:15):

And so, um, so I had put together these projects that I thought had a really good beginning, middle and the end, whomever they hired to replace me. I could sort of pick it up and give it to them wholesale. It wasn't gonna be messy with all these loose ends. We were going through a huge national branding initiative at that time too. And I really, really, really wanted to see that through. It was a really big project and, you know, and, and a lot of time and energy put into it. And so I thought if I, this is in July of 2014, mm-hmm so I'm like, if I can just make enough money to cover our family trip to Costa Rica at the end of the year, I don't even care. Like I had, I had no idea about anything, about money, what I should be charging.

Heather Campbell (00:12:56):

So I put together these four projects and my former boss calls me and he's like, okay, these projects look great. And I said, good and, and so he's like, so why don't we do this? Why don't we bring you on as a full-time consultant between now and the end of the year? And I'm like, all right, that's not what I would, but okay. Mm-hmm and he said, we'll pay you what you were making. And I'm like, all right. And he's like, and then you had to like buy a laptop and get your desk set up. And you have Cobra insurance, which is so expensive. He's like, so why don't you just gross up everything by like 30%, uh, 20, 15%. And I was like, oh, okay. That sounds good. And then something else that he did in the industry I was working in, um, you would get these massive bonuses at the end of the year that represented like 15% of your salary.

Heather Campbell (00:13:45):

And what he ended up doing was grossing up my percentage. So I got my full bonus payout.

Angie Colee (00:13:49):

Wow.

Heather Campbell (00:13:50):

So I had so many people looking out for me at a time where I made it very difficult for people to look out for me. and so he, um, so then during that time I got ledge, which was amazing. I had my income, I honestly, I called my husband and I was laughing and he thought I was crying. He's like, how did it go? And I said, I just got like a 15% raise and I don't even have enough work to keep me busy for an honest 40 hours a week. So it turned, so during that time, then, um, I started working for them and then people, I worked in a really tight knit industry. So people knew I left, they knew I started my own left, pushed it, whatever, knocked off the top of the building.

Heather Campbell (00:14:30):

And, um, and so they were like, Hey, we heard you had your own thing going on. Do you wanna work together? And that was when I thought, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this a go. I really loved being able to work with different people. I loved being able to work for different companies and even different industries that I'd never worked in before, because branding is, you know, universal. So it sort of doesn't matter what company, what kind of company it is. You just need to understand the core components of the business mm-hmm and the competitive landscape. And so it was awesome. And the company that fired me ended up being my biggest client for the first four years of my business.

Angie Colee (00:15:10):

Wow. That's incredible.

Heather Campbell (00:15:12):

It is so incredible. I still can't. I still can't believe that that happened to me. But then again, my life is like a sitcom that way.

Angie Colee (00:15:19):

Uh, it's funny. My old screenwriting professor used to say that too. Like, don't be so focused on being a world builder. You don't have to make it up. The funniest shit is happening around you in real life right now. Just watch.

Heather Campbell (00:15:31):

Oh yeah. I've seen entire curb your enthusiasm episodes when I'm like this, my husband's like that actually happened to you. And I'm like, I know it's so crazy. So. Larry David, where are my royalties?

Angie Colee (00:15:43):

I know. No kidding.

Heather Campbell (00:15:44):

Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:15:45):

I've seen, uh, I, I heard so many good things in that and I wanted to unpack a few of 'em cuz I thought it was so useful. I wanna dig even deeper. So the first one that I thought was really cool was that you mentioned very at the very beginning about like this reputation and you didn't, you weren't focused. You wasn't, you weren't good at the relationship part of it. And that was part of the reason why you wound up parting ways. And I think a lot of folks that are starting out in their business, they are almost paranoid to be bad at something, paranoid to make a mistake, it's all gonna come crumbling down. And I just find it fascinating that like all of those things happen to you. Yes. And you still created a business and you still wound up succeeding. So like, I love that. I love it.

Heather Campbell (00:16:25):

Thank you. Yeah. It took a, it took a little while and a lot of reflection um, cause it, and it didn't like the realization, like when I was like working, I was like those assholes, Ugh. You know, I, it took me a while to really realize like it probably took me, I think, a full three years to even admit that I was fully burnt out. I don't know why that one was the hardest one, I guess, because it just seems like you just don't have control.

Angie Colee (00:16:53):

Likek weakness.

Heather Campbell (00:16:53):

Yeah, exactly. like I would say, oh, I was on the top of the burnout rollercoaster hill. I was like, no, I had gone like.

Heather Campbell (00:17:04):

Corkscrew Spirals?

Heather Campbell (00:17:04):

Yeah, exactly. I, I did. And I did work on a rollercoaster in college that, it was one of those turn you upside down ones, not twice but three times.

Angie Colee (00:17:14):

Oh, I love those. Yeah. Those are my favorite. I'm a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but I'm sure that's a big surprise, right?

Heather Campbell (00:17:19):

Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:17:20):

But I, I love that too, because I, one of the things that I run into with a lot of my coaching students when we're working together is, you know, I'll help them troubleshoot a client problem. Like a communication issue. I'll help them position themselves to a new client with some confidence or something. And I've had people remark on like, how do you, how do you know this? I don't feel like I even understand how you approach this. And I was like, can we talk about how many times I fucked this up and did not actually do well and burned some bridges right. and offended some people, there are probably still many, many people out there that do not like me. And they don't say good things about me, but I can't really do anything about that other than apologize and say, I've learned from that, thank you for giving me the chance to learn. I'm gonna go do better with the next person and the next person and the next person until here I am helping you with your issue. You know?

Heather Campbell (00:18:08):

Oh my gosh, I had, I remember meeting a friend of mine who we used to work together. I actually hired her. She, she ended up becoming my creative director and we worked, I gave her her very first graphic design job. And she was just this really fantastic person. And she started her own business, her own agency about 18 months before me. So it was so interesting that like I was her boss and then she became my mentor. And I remember telling her, I said, you know, there were ways that I treated people even on my own team where I would, and you don't know that you're doing this. Like, it's not like I set out to say, oh, I'm gonna really make someone doubt their ability or I'm gonna really like, make them feel like I would do these things where I would like set these completely unrealistic situations.

Heather Campbell (00:18:57):

And then when they didn't do it, I would sort of come in to save the day. Oh my gosh, it's just, I cringe. Like I literally get sick inside. When I think about doing it. I understand exactly who that person was. Like. I have changed a lot in these last eight years, but I remember telling my friend Kim, who's like, again, about 18 months ahead of me. I just said, there are people who I legit have damaged and I was a fighter and I'm a words person. And I would use my words to wound. Yeah. And sometimes I would even stand back and admire my work. Oh, I still am not out of that at all.

Angie Colee (00:19:36):

I've been there too. Yeah. Lots of, lots of therapy. And can I just say, I think it's really courageous to be talking vulnerably like this and saying, I wasn't always great at this. I hurt some people. I don't think that we talk openly enough about this kind of stuff that it's okay to make mistakes. And obviously it's not okay to hurt people, but what you said, I thought tied in greatly to a discussion that I'm usually having with my clients about. Okay. But give people grace for being human, because just like you said, odds are, they didn't wake up today and think, how can I fuck up this person's day? I'd really like to make them feel like trash. It's just something that's going on with them. And their perception of reality. It really doesn't have anything to do with you, even though it feels deeply personal. And if you can kind of get yourself away from that, it feels personal and it's really not. Then you can start to see that person with compassion. And even if it doesn't work out, it just, it doesn't linger as much as it would.

Heather Campbell (00:20:35):

Right. Well, and I really think one of the biggest, the biggest thing that has helped me too is forgiveness. Yes. And it's not even, it's like forgiving yourself. I had such a fear of not being the best. Like I had to be the best employee, the best, the best mom, the best dressed, the best decorated, the best, like everything. I, and so when you have, when I have that, but when you have that kind of energy, you have, I call it like a proving energy and really what it is is I did not feel worthy for some reason. Yeah. Even though I had lots of different things that were like indicators of success, right? Like I would get promotions, I would get projects. I would get, you know, I would be able to do these like crazy things, just little old me, you know, getting these big projects over the finish line.

Heather Campbell (00:21:31):

And for whatever reason, I didn't allow myself to receive. I just kept on, I remember I got, when I got promoted to, to vice president at this big company, of branding and marketing, my colleague, who we worked, we ran the group together with she's like, you can, you have a, you are now an officer of this company. You can stop proving yourself. And I'm like, oh, I'll never stop proving myself. I remember thinking like, what is wrong with you? Of course, I'm gonna keep on proving myself. And I realize that that was, that just comes from yourself, not feeling worthy. And you just keep on taking on more and it all makes, once I realized that I was able to articulate, oh, I had a fear of not being the best mm-hmm

Angie Colee (00:22:12):

mmhmm.

Heather Campbell (00:22:13):

Oh my gosh. And the best is not perfect.

Angie Colee (00:22:17):

Oh yeah.

Heather Campbell (00:22:17):

Perfection is not even the best. That doesn't mean that you're the best. It means you're just perfect. And so it's even, I think more than perfectionism, like it's more sinister that way.

Angie Colee (00:22:28):

It can, it definitely can be, if you don't find a way to step back and look at yourself like you did holistically, and I know that you and I met through our mutual friend, Dr. Julie, uh who I've referenced several times on the show, cuz she's been incredibly helpful to me.

Heather Campbell (00:22:43):

I love that lady.

Angie Colee (00:22:44):

But she, this is the kind of stuff that we unpack with Dr. Julie, these internal narratives. And as I'm hearing you talk about this, like, yes, I think there's a little bit of a self-worth issue and that stems from like background and personal stuff. And we struggle with that. I've had a lot of self-worth issues too. Um, and then I think there's like the capitalist narrative that comes in on top of that, especially the eighties and nineties, when it got super toxic, you owe your life to this job. You need to stay here and prove your worth and prove your loyalty. And maybe someday we'll give you a raise that, uh, actually helps you keep up with the cost of living

Heather Campbell (00:23:18):

but you'll still make 28% less than men.

Angie Colee (00:23:21):

Yeah. No Kidding and not be taken seriously and have them steal your ideas for those don't at me, man. I have had dudes literally steal my ideas and two weeks, I pitch it and it is like, it's a little bit risky. I don't think it's really well thought through. And two weeks later, dude pitches the exact same thing, almost word for word. And it's forward thinking and it's just the kind of fresh air we need around here to inject new life into this company. And I was like, do you, do you hear yourselves? What is this? Do I need to record meetings?

Heather Campbell (00:23:51):

it is 100%. Yes. 100%. I used to work with this guy who I was a way better writer than he was. And he would turn something in and literally be like, this is the best damn thing I've ever written. And it was all right. Like, I mean, I was just like, boy, I would cuz I would edit his stuff all the time. And then I, I did that once that I was like, oh my gosh, I turned it into my boss. I'm like, this is the best God damn thing I've ever written. And I had a sit down, you cannot who, that was so offensive that you said that. And I just thought we live in such a conflicting time as women because the whole notion of women in the workplace is still still, I mean, what is it like 50 years after like 10,000 years? Like, I mean it in the whole spectrum of time, it's not that long. Yeah. And then, um, you know, we have this conflicting message, you know, reach out, lean in claim it, you know, be this, be this amazing person. But the social narrative is from the time where little kids is. Don't talk about yourself. Don't brag. Don't ask for more than you need and.

Angie Colee (00:25:02):

be polite.

Heather Campbell (00:25:04):

Oh my God, totally gotta make everythin okay. And I see it all the time happen, especially with female entrepreneurs where they discount their pricing for no reason. Like they just discount their cause they don't, they're so nervous to really ask and claim their value. And I'm like, oh, society, like we're raised by our parents. But I think we're raised way more by the societal narrative 100%.

Angie Colee (00:25:29):

Oh for, for sure. And I had actually a similar story when I was still in corporate as a copywriter. I know that I was, I, I, I worked really long hours and I'm pretty sure I probably lost my temper in one of the meetings, but I also knew how to handle myself. So my temper looked like, can we get back to the points? Here's what we were discussing here was the,

Heather Campbell (00:25:49):

I think you have a tell when your cheeks get red. Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:25:51):

I start to get red. Of course they don't get to see this video. So yeah. You and I and the rosy cheeks. And so I, I said that I brought it back to the point. I thought I was like decisively wrapping up the meeting. And then of course my copy chief calls me into the office. Like, could you, could you close the door? Could you sit down please? And thankfully he was a fantastic human being and he really cared about us as people and as team members. And so he sat me down and he was like, do you think your behavior was inappropriate there? And I said, can I ask you an honest question, Mark, do, would you be having this conversation with me? If I was man, and to his credit,

Heather Campbell (00:26:25):

What did he say

Angie Colee (00:26:26):

To his credit he actually took a pause and he goes, wow, I don't actually know. And that's kind of bothering me. And I was like, it's kind of bothering me too. And I mean, I don't, I'm not mad at you or anything like that, but I'm kind of tired of if I go in there and I behave exactly lke one of my male colleagues, I'm a bitch and it is unacceptable for Angie to behave that way. But that guy over there who is coming in, swinging his Dick around gets to say whatever he want and he's oh yeah, he's fighting for the company, go him.

Heather Campbell (00:26:56):

Right. Oh my gosh. I once was hiring somebody and I got this resume in from this guy who was just like completely like ideal. And his asking salary was $20,000 more than what I was making. And I told my, my boss was like, oh, are you gonna interview this guy? And I said, I sort of was joking. We were at like a department head retreat. And I said, oh no, I, um, you know, obviously not because his salary ask is, is so much more than what I make. And she's like, you just are gonna have to get comfortable with that. That you might have people working for you who make more than you do. And I'm just like,

Heather Campbell (00:27:38):

Uh,

Heather Campbell (00:27:39):

How, how does that even? I said, I don't even, like, I was just like, oh, oh, oh, like, I was like, how does that even compute and she's like, well, I have people working for me who make more than I do. And she made so much money. She was in the company's 10K reporting. So I know exactly how much she made, over $800,000 a year. And I'm like, I don't think so. But I was just like, then you are a way better person than I do, than I am. Or your earnings is like so much more than what I would ever make. Um, you know, I was like, I just can't. I just was surprised by that. I, I haven't thought about that in years. I remember for myself, you know, like, and it did not go well, and I did not interview that guy cuz I'm like, I'm not gonna be able to. I said, you're gonna pay somebody junior to me and pay that guy $20,000 more than you pay me when I've done X, Y, and Z. And I've actually demonstrated my value for the company. Like, are you crazy?

Angie Colee (00:28:42):

Yeah. I,

Angie Colee (00:28:45):

I have hope for the future generations, especially seeing on, on TikTok of all places where gen Z is talking about like respect and again, before you at me, like listen to what people are actually saying and sit with it. If it makes you uncomfortable. Instead of arguing, I challenge myself to do this direct like all the time. And I am surprised sometimes how the learning sneaks in when you are open instead of shutting things down. But I agree with gen Z that I don't owe my life to a business, especially not a business who is going to cut me in a heartbeat if things get tough and they don't have any loyalty to me, loyalty to me. So why do I have loyalty to them? And then the thing that you brought up I thought was crucial to that ties back to our narrative work with Dr. Julie relationships are in trouble the moment resentment starts to creep in,

Heather Campbell (00:29:31):

Oh, resentment is the worst. That is the worst emotion. I swear it is. It's worse than anything because then every that is, is resentment. I swear to gosh, is what makes the Grinch's heart like three times too small. Yes. It's it's like that, that just shrivels up your heart into little black nugget because when you're thinking of resentment. Oh. And it, and it just is like a magnet because you just start to see like all the injustice. And I really focus on not being in resentful. Like I'm a really optimistic person and not like jumping over like glitter hurdles all the time. Like I'm a realist as well, but I tend to always, I look for the good in situations and even like getting fired or even like in that situation, like you, I, I don't think like when people say, oh, everything happens for a reason.

Heather Campbell (00:30:26):

I'm like, I don't know about that. But I do think that everything happens for meaning, when I'm able to find meaning in what's happening, then there's purpose in it. And once, once I'm able to get to that meaning place, I just have like, don't they say like when you're meditating, like the best place to be is in the role of the observer. it's like now I'm able, and now I'm out of it cause now I'm searching for the meaning and I'm pulling myself above it to like figuratively and sometimes literally to really take a look at it to say, okay, where's the meaning in this? Yes. Like really this is happening, you know, this is happening. I'm a human being on earth here for an experience. So where can I find that meaning in it? And it really does. It changes things significantly.

Heather Campbell (00:31:13):

And then you set your brain to start. You can't ask a question and your brain not answer it. Yeah. Like, so if you're like, those people are assholes, I'm gonna go down that path. I'm gonna keep on going down that path, the asshole lane, you know, where you're just like, and then that's absolutely gonna change the way that you look at other people in other situations where I'm like, where's the meaning in this I'm I'm helping my brain to sort of figure to say, where is this? Like, I just had this conversation with one of my students the other day that she was saying, the challenge is this. And I said, can we change the word challenge for the, the question is this and I'm really curious cuz then she was trying to figure out like, how can I find time to write an, to paintand I'm like, could we maybe say the question is, is how... I wanna do these two things?

Heather Campbell (00:32:08):

How can I make them happen? Where I feel like I'm not sacrificing one or the other, like I have to pick between my two loves.

Angie Colee (00:32:15):

I love that.

Heather Campbell (00:32:15):

And like, and then I love to ask the question, like, I'm so curious to see how this plays out, because then you're now in the realm of possibility. And if you're, and it, it, I'm not saying like, it's that easy all the time, but sometimes like it can be a big situation and you can be like, I am so fucking curious to figure out, like what, how is this gonna play out? Like sometimes you have that kind of edgy energy in there because it is a big thing. There's a lot riding on it. But I, I find when I ask that question, you get the best answers and they're oftentimes unexpected. And they come at a weird time, like when you're like, you know how people get ideas in the shower?that is when they come, because you're not thinking so hard about trying to force a solution. I you've asked the question, let it go. I get mine. When I brush my teeth and then

Angie Colee (00:33:04):

take space.

Heather Campbell (00:33:05):

We don't take space often enough in this instant communication world, feels like you have to answer right away. Uh, you know, exactly 24 to 48 hours is totally acceptable. And anybody that loses their mind and goes, uh, it's 48 hours and you haven't responded to me, eh, they might have some of their own issues that they're dealing with. But I love that. You said that, cuz I think it reframes the story on a couple of different levels, cuz I know one of the challenges I've had in working with a lot of freelancers who are at like they're evolving into starting a business from the freelance model, uh, there are many, many wonderful freelance support groups and they are called echo chambers for a reason. And that is the home of the Pitchfork mob. And the conversation when they go to their support groups usually looks like something like this.

Angie Colee (00:33:49):

Well, my client did this, this and this. And it kind of bothered me, is that a red flag are they trying to screw me over? And I always tell them that's the wrong question. Just like you said, like, because everybody who's ever been burned by a client, whether it was their fault or the clients is gonna come outta the woodworks and tell you they're the devil run away, they're trying to screw you over. And then someone like me, who's a little bit contrarian by nature comes in and goes, is there a possibility that there might have been a miscommunication? So from a hiring standpoint, I could see how, if this happens, then this was my reaction. And then that was your reaction. So like this could have gone off the rail through a totally innocent mistake and have nothing to do with how they think of you as a person.

Heather Campbell (00:34:31):

Oh my gosh. That is so true. Like, uh, about eight years ago, one of my brothers died and my sister and I were driving to his funeral and her gas gauge was broken on her car. So she would track the miles, but we were in this extraordinary situation. So she lost track of like her mileage and we're driving to the funeral and we are literally running out of gas and we are driving, she's driving like a maniac, like, because we don't wanna run outta gas. And we, we were in this part of town that we're not really familiar with. And so we, we can see a gas station and we are just like, oh my, like it, I don't even know how we ended up getting, like I remember seeing the funeral home about a half mile down the road and I thought, well, at least if we run outta gas, we can at least walk there.

Heather Campbell (00:35:18):

And so we were doing not nice driving things. Like we were running like stop signs and things like that because we didn't even wanna stop because we were so afraid we were gonna run outta gas. And I remember thinking, and people were just like honking and yelling at us, us. And I just wanted to say, oh my God, our brother just died. you know, like we're trying here's here's what's going on in our lives because I think anyone would be like, oh my gosh, you go like ahead of me. Right? Yeah. And so I often, it was such an interesting lesson to me because I thought, oh my gosh, like what if that person who is driving erratically on the road is going to like an emergency room because their child is in a car accident or something like that. Like you just have, you have no idea what anyone is going to at any given time or what they have going on in their life. And so many people, like I have amazing coping skills growing up in a really complex family that sometimes I don't even know, is it really me? Or is this me genuinely? Or is this my coping skills? Because that's how, that's how fluid it was. Like that's how entrenched it was in my life. So I just really think about that all the time. Like people who get upset in traffic, I'm like, come on.

Angie Colee (00:36:40):

My ex and I used to get in fights over that all the time. Because first of all, when I started working from home, I didn't have to travel all that much anymore. So I wasn't getting stuck in twice daily commutes for hours with angry drivers. And I, I was able to get some distance from it. And then I just, you know, the few times a week that I would hit the road, when I left my home office, it was kind of like, well, I know somebody's gonna cut me off anyway. I might as well leave the space. Right. And it really does. It's not costing me more than five seconds to let that person in front of me. And I, I felt my shoulders descend from around my ears and then suddenly going places wasn't as stressful anymore. And it was funny because he was a very aggressive driver and like, he would get mad at me if I wasn't honking at someone to move, cuz they spent too long at the light. And I was like

Heather Campbell (00:37:23):

oh my gosh,

Angie Colee (00:37:24):

I am not going to remember this in five hours or five years. So I don't care to expend this level of energy on that. But it was really important to him to teach other people how to do it right. And I was like, all they see is an asshole that is honking at them and I'm going to do my best. And I'm, I'm not preaching that he was right or I'm right. Or anything like that. It was two different perspectives

Heather Campbell (00:37:45):

but you're sort of right. Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:37:47):

But my perspective is similarly in line with yours, it's like, what if they just got a really awful text and they happen to see it right as the light turned and like they're stunned momentarily. What if I am just making somebody's horrible day, the worst. Right. And like, I don't wanna be that person. I've said that on the show before too. I don't wanna be the reason somebody gives up on themselves. Yeah. I'm gonna do my best to never be that person. And I think that comes with a lot of responsibility to monitor my energy, monitor my interpretation, ask how could this be? Not what I think it is. How, how might this situation be playing out on their ends to where everything you're doing makes perfect sense to them. And I'm just missing a, a critical piece of the puzzle. So like I love that question. Um, and you know, that's interesting because you mentioned, you know, like, and rest in peace, funerals are hard

Heather Campbell (00:38:42):

Oh I know. I think he was like the best brother because he never fought with anybody. He was like the Bruce Springsteen of our family. Like I always think like.

Angie Colee (00:38:50):

the peaceful one.

Heather Campbell (00:38:51):

No one has ever said, Bruce Springsteen is such an asshole, Like no one has ever said that, but he was just, he real and we did not make it easy. There were five girls in that family

Angie Colee (00:39:02):

Oh gosh

Heather Campbell (00:39:04):

Was like five girls, four boys. Yeah. It really was. And you really did have to sort of figure out like, and what's really interesting is all of us are either, um, like marketers entrepreneurs. My one brother is a professor, which is really marketing because you're selling like a concept it's really interesting how we are all in like sales and marketing professions, because I think in the context of a big family, you have to grow up that way. So yeah, it was, it was just like a really huge, I miss him. Jimmy.

Angie Colee (00:39:35):

Mm. All right. Jimmy, we're sending all of love into the universe.

Heather Campbell (00:39:39):

Yes, Jimmy,

Angie Colee (00:39:40):

Your spirit is with us today. And I, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned grief and, and I'm gonna kind of transition into a similar related grief because you talked about getting, let go of the job from the job. And we talked about like a client parting of ways that wasn't as pleasant as it could be before we started recording too. Yes. And I think that's another kind of grief that we don't really address in the business world. And that is when you are devastated by an unexpected firing by a client that you loved working with suddenly having something go wrong and they take it out on you and it, and it just hurts. And then we feel like we have to go on business as usual and just tough it out. And we don't give ourselves that time to grieve. I, I don't know. It's so interesting to me that that's a stigma.

Heather Campbell (00:40:28):

Oh yeah, totally. And it's um, so yeah, so when we were talking before the show, I was just saying for the very first time I got fired by a client. So I can't say it's the first time I ever got fired because we all know I got fired before. Um, but I was really sort of surprised about it. And one of the things that, um, I really thought about was I used to be such a fighter and I would've really tried to defend myself or try to get them to see things from my perspective, like mative> don't they see how I remember when I got fired from my job, it was a really similar feeling where I was like, oh my gosh, don't they see this part of me inside that is so earnest on doing a good, like, I just wanna do a good job for them.

Heather Campbell (00:41:14):

I want them to produce something that works. That helps but that really is my motivation. And it's so odd when somebody just does not see that or acknowledge that and demanding that somebody sees that and acknowledges that isn't the way for them to see it. And so where these clients were, I just thought, wow, they are literally like a full glass of water. Right. Like they're at the rim. So if I'm trying to put in, oh here's reason or here's how things, here's how things really work with, you know, when you work with a creative consultant, they weren't gonna take any of that in. And I honestly know that I have nothing. Like it was, I was actually pretty surprised at how calm I was. I did defend myself a couple of times when things crossed the line from being professional to very personal, um, where I was like, you, you don't need to go there your point.

Heather Campbell (00:42:08):

I said, believe me, your point's been made but I, I knew that I had nothing to defend because I didn't do anything wrong. And I just remember thinking it's not even worth the fight. Like, so for someone who was such a fighter and so willing to take up the fight, I just thought, oh, this isn't even worth it. You know, because it's not gonna be satisfactory. And it's really gonna cause more, more angst and more sadness to me and anger right behind resentment, anger. I just think is one of those also like, it's like messy. It gets in all between the cracks. And I just, for someone who used to like, I could get very angry, I'm like, it's just not worth it. So I just really let them go. But it hurts like as we're unwinding from the engagement, which is gonna end on Friday, which I'm so happy for.

Heather Campbell (00:43:02):

Um, you want, I there's a part of me that still wants that commupance in, like to say that one thing that makes them feel that all of a sudden, like the clouds part and the sun starts shining and they're just like, oh my gosh, like, you know what? she was a good person after all. And I just thought that's never gonna happen. You know, so I'm not gonna try to, anytime I've gotten into like the proverbial trouble, it's when I'm trying desperately to get someone, to see things from my perspective and they don't want to, it would be like, if somebody, it would be the same difference, you know, there's so much like political animosity if you were like on one side of the coin or the other, and you were trying to get someone to see things your way, it, how futile is that?

Heather Campbell (00:43:47):

Like you wouldn't, it just makes no sense. And there's just so much damage that happens in trying to do that. So I was really actually pretty proud of myself to say, yeah, I, I read somewhere, like in my defenselessness is my strength. Mm. And now it's like, I'm very quiet. I'm responsive, I'm courteous, but I'm not, I'm a half of what I would be like, you know, which is normally like, I'm a lover, not a fighter anymore and um, so I'm not loving on them, but I know that I'm doing everything that we agree to and I'm protecting my business.

Angie Colee (00:44:20):

Yes and your mental state too, which your business depends on.

Heather Campbell (00:44:26):

For real.

Angie Colee (00:44:26):

Like, I think that's funny because there's a lot of, especially since this society really kind of glorifies people, losing their shit over stupid things. Uh, and yes, if you lose your shit over stupid things, I'm going to say that it is stupid because half of these things aren't worth your energy. And then you're out there looking like a jerk on the internet because people are like, why on earth? Are you destroying a Jack in the box? Cuz they forgot mayonnaise. Like what is happening? Why can't you control yourself? and I will say that, you know

Heather Campbell (00:44:57):

True Yeah.

Angie Colee (00:44:58):

You said that, um, you know, you grew up a fighter too. I grew up a, a fighter and I developed a pretty devious style, which is, I knew how to poke somebody until they went over the edge. And I got a lot of glee in keeping myself calm and I'm, I'm like laughing too. Like I like making you mad and if you're gonna lose your shit, I'm just gonna keep pushing until you do. And then you look crazy and people are going like what's wrong. So I know, you know, I'm aware of that pattern of manipulation in myself and I try to watch it, but I still have a sense of humor when things get rough. Oh. And I keep calm by nature.

Heather Campbell (00:45:31):

I, I used to set off these time release bombs. What I call them, which is, I would say something in a really innocent, not yelling or shouting way that I knew like four days later somebody would sit there and just be like, oh, hold on a second. Like, I was very good at that.

Angie Colee (00:45:51):

But I think the brilliant thing that you said that I just wanna like circle back and highlight was that metaphor about the full glass? Yeah. You can't pour, you just can't pour anymore into that glass. It is not physically possible until the glass gets empty. So continuing to push and fight and try and prove like it's just a futile effort. It's like trying to push water up a hill. It's just not going to happen. So you have to give that up, like

Heather Campbell (00:46:17):

Right. especially when it got like it, it turned and it, it really did like it, it crossed, it definitely crossed the line and you can have, like, I would love to say I have a 100% success rate, you know, with every single thing that I do, but I don't, I have a really pretty good, I have a great track record. I have lots of returning clients, people I've worked with since the first day, like I opened my doors for business. And so I have a lot to be proud of too. So yeah. It's also, what do I wanna feed in my business? Like, do I wanna feed the handful of clients that were difficult to work with where you unwind from the engagement and that you're like, I'm I just remember. I remember the day when I was working with a really difficult client who was just a toxic human being and I was so triggered, like I was when I worked corporately and I remember thinking, oh, hold on a second. I never have to work with this person again. Like I do not. And I just remember thinking having your own business is the best.

Angie Colee (00:47:24):

Yes. That's why I built my own business. I don't have to work on things. I don't like working on it. I don't have to talk to people. People I don't like talking to it's the best!

Heather Campbell (00:47:30):

Yes. Like I remember thinking I used to have, I used to do these marketing audits and because so many people don't pay attention to their marketing, pay a little attention to your marketing to find really like people think like I'm a genius and I'm like, no, I just pay attention. Like I just have these metrics, but I hate pulling together reports. Like I hate yeah. Excel. No, if I could do like some sort of like data stuff in PowerPoint or InDesign, like that is way more my speed. But I was like, I hated pulling 'em together, but there was like a lot of value in them. Right. So I I'm also like still, you know, I'm still a girl from Toledo, Ohio. So I still had this pragmatic side to what I do. And I just remember thinking, oh my God, I never had to do one of those god damn marketing reports ever again. Yes. And I was just like, this is the best day of my life. I'm just like, I'm not doing anything. It's like becoming your own, like moving out of your parents house. And you're like, I don't like cooked carrots, although I don't know how I didn't, I didn't like them as a kid. They're delicious now.

Heather Campbell (00:48:37):

I' was like, I'mn never gonna eat that ever again. And

Angie Colee (00:48:39):

I hated strawberries growing up, but now I love them.

Heather Campbell (00:48:41):

You did. Oh my good they're my favourite food.

Angie Colee (00:48:44):

Oh man. And it's, it's funny too, because we, we talked a little bit about, I mean, a lot of people kind of, uh, diminish it, I think a little bit by calling it, taking the high road as if you're suffering somehow by, by letting them stew in their stuff. But not saying what you needed to say. And I don't think, uh, that there's anything wrong with taking the high road. It doesn't mean I'm gonna let myself be walked on. One of my favorite things to tell my coaching students is, do no harm, but take no shit and make no mistake. None of my clients think that they can call me names or say rude things to me because I will tell, I give everybody one chance. And it is usually with a lot of love, like, okay, it seems like tensions are high right now. Maybe something's going on. Or, you know, something happened that I'm not aware of this language cannot continue.

Heather Campbell (00:49:34):

Right.

Angie Colee (00:49:35):

So let's, let's pause and take a deep breath if we can continue it now. Great. If we need to continue this call later. Great. Like let's, let's go take some space and re-center, and, and get back on this in a productive manner, but make no mistake. If that language repeats, I will hang up on you instantly. Right. And we will talk tomorrow.

Heather Campbell (00:49:54):

Well, I like what you were saying just now. Like, I am not gonna let you walk all over me. if you really think about this idea of the high road, you can't walk on somebody who's on the high road. Yeah. Like, like I just literally have this visual in my mind that like this sidewalk lifting off the ground and that person is stomping in the mud and you're like, I'm up here again, putting yourself in that role of observer and then forgiving, like forgiving, just forgiving people for just being who, you know, forgiving people, forgiving me. Like, I don't know. like maybe I giving my time, like I know I'm gonna look for the meaning in this. One of the things I did realize is that I always, like, if I really like my clients, I'll always like do stuff that's in addition to the scope and I won't charge them for it.

Heather Campbell (00:50:42):

and I thought one of these days, like, someone's gonna really, like, you're gonna absolutely devalue what you're doing. And I thought I am devalue, like in this situation, I absolutely devalued what I was doing because I threw in a lot of stuff for extra, for free too. And so that, like, there are some really good learning lessons that come from this. Like, I, once I, I have fired, like I've broken up, I don't wanna say fired cause that's such like a hostile word, but I have broken up with two clients who just were not great people to work with.um, one actually had questionable business ethics and I was just like, I just do not wanna be associated with this person. And I remember the first time I did it, I, I was looking, I was looking over like my terms and conditions and my contract.

Heather Campbell (00:51:28):

And they were really clever and cute and really short. And I thought I am 1000% exposed. And so I got really serious about making sure that my contract protects me. And in this situation I was able to refer to my contract. I mean, they, some of the things that were said were pretty extreme and I'm just like, no, please refer back to the approved proposal, you know, like, yep. So it was very powerful. And again, it distances you from any emotion when you have this like document between you but that was also like a hard lesson learned. Yes, too. So

Angie Colee (00:52:02):

I find that funny, cuz that's something that I've seen with earlier stage entrepreneurs, especially like in the freelance and the creative industries, like the resistance to contracts. And then also the simultaneous belief that contracts are some sort of magic shields that you can just like when you enable the contract, it makes them magically bend to your will. And I'm like not without lawyers and money and a whole lot of time and aggravation. And that is by the way, the nuclear option to take someone to court, to try to court, to try and force them to do something. So you have a good contract in place and you hope you never have to use it. That's the key here. Like you get into business with people you don't think you're gonna have to take to court. And I don't. Yeah. And, and, and also like feeling that if they just got the perfect wording in the contract that like they would protect themselves guys, those of us that have great contracts messed up a lot and went, okay, well that needs to be amended. Oh, that needs to be part of my working process. Oh, I never wanna work with somebody like them again. How do I filter them out at the beginning? It's all a learning process.

Heather Campbell (00:53:04):

Exactly. One of my favorite things that I put into my contract was inspired by my friend who I told you about earlier, which is, um, which is, she was 18 months ahead. And she's a you know, they have a, a branding agency, so they're all design and it's interesting how some clients will just go dark on you all of a sudden, it, it was, was very interesting to me is how a lot of times, right? Like you work so really closely with someone and you do their website and you're about to launch their website and they get so freaked out by it. Literally don't return your calls for like weeks. And so, and you're just like, wait, like we're so ready to do this and there's just something about sort of staking a claim with something new and big. That just must be so intimidating for people.

Heather Campbell (00:53:47):

But yes, I put a restart fee in, in my, so there's language in my contract. So if you have freelancers put this in your contract, cause it's such a brilliant add Um, which is if I, cause I have a good methodology for following up with people and if, so, my language is basically like, if I follow up with you and the project goes dormant for 30 days, rubbing back up is subject to a, it's a percentage of the, I used to have a flat amount. And then I was like, no, I'm gonna put in like a percentage of the project fee. And one of the things that's so beautiful about it is when I really don't hear from somebody, I invoke, I don't invoke it. Like I think I've charged it once. Yeah. But I could say, Hey, there's this restart fee. And I wanna say like, if you, if I don't hear from you by this date, I have no choice. But to invoke this and I will get a, like, I've been almost like 3,2, oh, I'm here, I'm here. I'm here.

Angie Colee (00:54:43):

I put all that Into my contracts too. Like a, a kill fee because sometimes businesses change direction in the middle of the project. But that doesn't mean that I don't deserve to get paid for what I've dedicated to this. Yes, exactly. So like certain milestones, there are certain payments due. Um, and it, of course it's at my discretion to award them more or hold the line. But like I have those terms in there so that it's easier to say like, you know, the agreement that you signed. Um, and, and I don't just, and this is key too. I think to people that are newer to business, I don't just give them a contract and then expect them three months later to remember what the hell they signed. Do you remember what you signed in the last like apple update agreements? I don't think so.

Heather Campbell (00:55:19):

I never even, I've never even read it.

Heather Campbell (00:55:23):

Surprised at how many people I'm surprised at the number of people who read my contracts and a huge question that they have is who owns what and they own like the final finished materials. But I own like all the raw files, I own anything. I work with a ton of apartment developers. So we'll go through like branding and naming. And so we'll produce names and logos and things like that. And that they think, oh, like one of my clients was like, oh, I'm taking these names that we didn't use in your presentation. And I'm using them on these other properties. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they go into, it's not like we recycle, sometimes we do. But we always say that they go into the orphanage, like the name or logo orphanage. But sometimes you do pull them out because they're like a really perfect fit. Yep. Um, for another client, it just wasn't right for that one client. But it's, that's what people pay attention to most, which is like, what, what does this mean? I'm never give you illustrator files so you can take this and it means like you're gonna have to call me to do your business cards for the rest of your life.

Angie Colee (00:56:29):

well, I think it's, it's interesting too. Like we talked about kill fees and we talked about, you know, the, the magic contract language, but uh, I treat this like gentle parenting. So I reinforce the stages of every agreement at every stage. And I don't do it with frustration or accusation. It's all right. Okay. Here is the first draft of the copy. If you remember, the process is this, you have 14 days to give me your feedback. I know it's kind of a tight turnaround, so you have to let me know if you need more time. But if I don't hear from you in two weeks, this is considered finalized. And if you need further edits, that's a separate project fee.

Heather Campbell (00:57:06):

Wow. You give two, I give people 3 days, you're so nice. Like I'm like, let's keep this moving people. Yeah. Like that's, I mean, I bet that you do much different kind of, but I usually, but I I'll be good about like review rounds, like, cause you just don't want people to, cause people have to have that, your clients have to have that kinda discipline on the other side too. Like,

Angie Colee (00:57:26):

You don't want things to languish and you especially don't wanna get into agreements where your final dependent is, your final payment is dependent upon their approval. And then they drag out approval for six months.

Heather Campbell (00:57:36):

Right. That's not fair. And they go through 11 rounds of every revisions. Yeah. It's like there has to be, there has to be a way to do. Yeah. So I do that same thing that I'm like, here's your website. Remember? Every page has two review rounds and so the first round is substantial. The second one is validating that all the things are, and then it's gonna be your final comments or approval and anything above and beyond that is like, it is really nice when people push back on that, because you can say no, it's it's right here. So I always give two revision. How many revision round do you give?

Angie Colee (00:58:08):

Its three, It's the it's the same structure and I've well, I mean, it works out the same thing too. Like the first round is for substantive. So if we missed the mark, if we misunderstood a story, if the hook isn't resonating, if something changed in the business, round one, revisions is where the rewrite happens. A ground up rewrite can happen in round one. Round two is to ensure we caught all the revisions. This makes sense. This looks good. Oh, typo here. Oh, you know, misspelled word there. Right? Something like that. By round three, this thing should be close to perfect. And this is, did a link break. Did something happen? Oh, that thing got nudged outta place in the design. Right. But like final checks or final checks and yeah, we are not rewriting in round three. We're not.

Angie Colee (00:58:53):

Oh my gosh. I feel like I could rant with you all day. I think we just have to agree on doing a part two, cuz I have so many other things that I want to talk to you about on this list that we didn't get to. But for now I want you to tell us more about your business and tell us where we can find you online.

Heather Campbell (00:59:08):

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. So if you are an entrepreneur or someone, I don't even entrepreneur, I wish we could come up with another word because talk about typos. I must spell that word every single time I write it the first time. I'm just like, how do we, how is this the word for people who are, wanna have a purpose filled business? But if I really am passionate about helping new entrepreneurs understand and know that there's an order to marketing operations. So I am, I write emails every week I do Facebook lives. I have a great ultimate marketing checklist that you can have access to everything all on my website at heyheathercampbell.com and the way that I describe this is like, there's, there's six stages, really eight, but like six core stages that every business must know to be successful in marketing.

Heather Campbell (01:00:04):

Like this is not like the Heather Campbell way of doing things or the anti Coley way of doing things or the, this like this system. This is just like reflecting the laws of marketing. This is how it's done. How there's not more people out there telling you, telling people like this. This is why when you know somebody who hires a marketing professional, they see a lift in polish and performance. It's because there's a system that we follow. And if you talk with any marketer, they're gonna be like, or they might do things slightly differently. Like I know there's a brander who we know Kathleen who's like this amazing brander. And she does stuff in a slightly different order than I do. But it doesn't matter. Like she has distinct steps. I have distinct steps. So it's like, it's like having a ladder with six rungs to get up to the roof of a building to say, Hey, everyone I'm open for business. And entrepreneurs are just like, I'm just gonna take off the first four runs. Like you might be able to jump up on that fifth run and you might be able to get to that roof, but not without a whole lot of exertion, struggle, trial and error. You're probably gonna fall off and then like figure out how do I do this again? Where it's so much easier if it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Angie Colee (01:01:14):

Exactly

Angie Colee (01:01:15):

Wanna move it warp speed. But just take it one step at a time. It goes so much faster

Heather Campbell (01:01:20):

A tiny bit like the words that, the two words that I, I dislike most that have been commandeered into something positive in the entrepreneurial community are the words, hustle and hack. And if you really look at both of those words in the dictionary, they're not positive in any way like hustle. Nobody wants to be hustled. And to me, hustle implies haste where like people think like, oh, if I spend time doing like branding research, which I call branding me-search.

Angie Colee (01:01:51):

ooh.

Heather Campbell (01:01:51):

because you want it to be about you. Like, I know it's like cute, right? And it rhymes. Um, it's like, it doesn't take it. Doesn't take months. It literally takes a weekend of just spending like take 48 hours. We were just talking about how 48 hours is not that big in the whole scheme of things.

Heather Campbell (01:02:09):

It's not even the full part of the week. Like it honestly is just two out of seven days. If you just spend a little bit of time and bring intention into these foundational pieces, which is your brand, how you show up, which is how you, not your logo. It's not your story. Yeah. Those are hugely important, but it's neither of those things. And then your customers and then matching your offer to what your customers want need and like, and who you wanna work with? Like, why are we all of a sudden like indiscriminate, like I'll work with anyone. It's like, no. You would not have a party and just let anyone come into your house. Like I always think about like who, what customers who are the people you want to come into your house and that are gonna make it into your kitchen, the best in the house at any party.

Heather Campbell (01:02:52):

And so I am so passionate about teaching what I know and there's nobody out there doing it. I actually just did a Google search for like grow, grow my brand. And it returned 808 million results. Wow. And there's so much hype out there. And the hype machine doesn't want you to know, like those professional marketers who make seven figures who tell you do this one thing right now. And they act like, do this one thing and you're gonna get a hundred thousand followers. No, that never works. And that person understands the marketing of marketing operations. That's why they are seven figure business. So it's not, it is,

Angie Colee (01:03:31):

They've done all the foundation work and then accelerated it with the one tactic that they're teaching. Yeah. That's, that's the thing we miss most of the time.

Heather Campbell (01:03:39):

And so many of them are one hit wonders too. They figured something out that works only for their business. And they're like, oh, this is great. And I'm not saying that everyone out there is a gimmick because that's not the case at all. But there's a lot of really not. I would say self proclaimed experts who really do not have a lot of experience outside of their own business. And those are the kind of people that you definitely wanna take with a grain of salt. And they're the ones who are spending so much money on advertising to get in front of you, to prey on your insecurities, to tell you like, this is the one tactic and people get so caught up in the tactics. They forget, like you have to, you have to have a strategy. Otherwise tactics end up being like going to the grocery store and you have no idea what you're gonna have for dinner. And you come home like this just happened to me last night.

Angie Colee (01:04:28):

With a 500 dollar cart

Heather Campbell (01:04:29):

Oh my God. Like I brought home sushi and malted melt balls. And then when I finally decided what I was gonna make for dinner, chicken piccata I came home and I forgot lemons and capers, which are like the two key ingredients. Like I seriously could have cried. Cause I was at the grocery store for like 50 minutes. I probably spent $75 more than if I just went in with purpose and intention and said I'm gonna get chicken piccata. I'm gonna go, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. I'd be out of there with nothing extra. Maybe the melted milk balls. That is my weakness. Like I do love those guys.

Angie Colee (01:05:02):

The funny thing is the tactics all work. So I hate when they're like, this is the one thing they all work. They all work. Yes. Which one works for your business and your people. That's the thing that we're finding out that the foundation will get you to. So, ah, this is so great.

Heather Campbell (01:05:14):

Oh my God. Yes. And if you don't know who, who you are or who your people are, that's where the overwhelm mm-hmm like, I would say marketing is not rocket science. It literally requires intention, consistency and engagement. That's it? That's it.

Angie Colee (01:05:28):

Yep. Oh, so great. So wonderful.

Heather Campbell (01:05:30):

Oh my God. I am hugging you like so hard virtually to our zoom, to our zoom feed.

Angie Colee (01:05:36):

This is so great. I wanted it to be like the first two hour episode. If I didn't have to jump onto another one soon, we would just keep going. We would just keep going, but we're gonna book another two.

Heather Campbell (01:05:45):

Keep going with you. I would love that.

Angie Colee (01:05:47):

So good. We're gonna book a number two. We're gonna have that one go out. I'm going to make sure, sure. That they have

Heather Campbell (01:05:52):

Let's not call it a number two though

Angie Colee (01:05:54):

a part two

Heather Campbell (01:05:56):

Part two. Yeah.

Angie Colee (01:05:56):

I didn't even hear myself saying it it's been such a long day, but I'll make sure they have clickable links in the show notes. And I hope everybody comes to you for your branding wizardry. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was lovely to see you.

Heather Campbell (01:06:08):

Oh my gosh. I know. I wish we could do this every Wednesday afternoon. It was so fun. Thank you so much for all you're doing and sharing your work and your story too. And giving people Permission to Kickass. I love the name of this webinar, this webina, I love this name of this podcast. I hope your person can edit that out, um, I just think that what you're doing is so important because when we present ourselves, especially in social media, people think like, oh, they have it completely together. And yeah. I mean, I like to think that I do, but I'm hardly like a person who's impervious to crazy things happening, getting fired from jobs, you know, getting finger and traffic, you know, those kinds of things too. We're all at the end of the day. We're all human beings.

Angie Colee (01:06:55):

None of us has it together.

Heather Campbell (01:06:56):

Not one of us.

Angie Colee (01:06:58):

It's fine. It's all good. Thank you so much for being on the show. And we're gonna talk soon.

Heather Campbell (01:07:02):

Thank you, honey.

Angie Colee (01:07:06):

So that is it. Another awesome episode of Permission to Kick Ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show or if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permissiontokickass.com. That is all one word together, permissiontokickass.com. Make sure to sign up for my email list so that you know whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Monday's Ass. I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass.