Angie Colee (00:02):

Welcome to permission to kick ass, a podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it hey everyone. And welcome back to another awesome episode of permission to kick ass. I'm so excited today because with me is somebody that I consider to be my personal mentor, and I am a huge fan of Kevin Rogers. Welcome Kevin.

Kevin Rogers (00:33):

Thank you, Angie. What an honor to finally be invited on this amazing podcast.

Angie Colee (00:40):

You can't possibly have felt left out, man. Like your invitation was coming. You knew it.

Kevin Rogers (00:45):

Uh, I know you, you, you, you, you respected my, my general rule that when people ask me, of course, this doesn't apply to you, but when, uh, and this will happen to you more, I'm sure it's already happening to you. People invite you on their show. Right? And I love doing podcasts. I think being interviewed is one of the best things you can do, because especially if you're a confident expert, which all your guests are, because, you know, you just, you say things different ways and you get asked good questions that, you know, it's, it's great way to create content yourself. Right.

Angie Colee (01:22):

Oh yeah

Kevin Rogers (01:22):

But when somebody asks me to be on a show and they'll say a thing like, Hey, I'm starting a podcast or, Hey, I'm thinking of starting a podcast and I'd love to interview you. You know, when can we do it? I'll say, listen, I think that's fantastic. I'd love to be your 10th guest after the show goes live. Right. Cause I don't know how many I've done that never saw the light of day. Right. It'd be back in the back of my, in the day. So, so that's my general rule, but of course it did not apply to you, but you you've had some killer guests on already.

Angie Colee (01:56):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Rogers (01:57):

Many, many of our good friends and it's been a lot of fun listening to it.

Angie Colee (02:01):

Well, and that's been the interesting thing too, because that number 10, just always stuck in my head from the it's weird. What sticks out in your head when you're listening to podcasts, but I've always had that number 10 in my head. And so I was just, when, when getting ready to record the show and making all the prep, I was just like, get to 10 episodes. Just get to 10 episodes. We've got to have Kevin on.

Kevin Rogers (02:21):

Awesome. Yeah. Something about that 10, I think with, Oh, I also heard a stat that I don't know if this is true. It sounds so high, but it makes sense. 93% of podcasts never get past the seventh episode.

Angie Colee (02:36):

Oh wow

Kevin Rogers (02:37):

I heard not long ago. And I was like, wow. I mean, it's higher than I would've fought. But you know, these are shows that actually get, you know, start and have a spot on, on what iTunes. And it just goes to show how many shows there are and how many and still how hard it is to get one in sustain one. Right? It's, it's a lot of work. Don't you think like that it's fun. But once you get to 10, I think, you know what you're up against and if you get to 10 you're you'll know, all right, I'm going to keep doing this. You're either completely bitten by the bug and it's become a manageable task or you're you're, you're already done at that point.

Angie Colee (03:14):

Yeah. It's been, it's been a really weird learning curve. 'Cause I mean, I love showing up and doing the talking and Oh man, hear everybody's stories has been really, really great. And I was talking to a group of my friends last week about when I launched the podcast, just how much energy that took. And I still don't feel like I did a huge, huge, like blow it out podcast launch, but it's it's I sat down afterward and I was like, why did it feel like it took so much energy just to get this thing out in the world. And then I realized that there were like, I don't know. I want to say like three dozen little tasks that have to happen with every episode just to get it live. And once I got that down on paper, I was like, Holy shit, no wonder I was tired.

Kevin Rogers (03:58):

Yeah. But especially you're doing it all right now. Right. I mean you're editing and um,

Angie Colee (04:03):

I've got an amazing editor. Uh, you may hear me apologize to him. If the cat interrupts, I'm working on getting very awesome, uh, graphics people to get in and help me with show graphics and stuff like that. So it's an iterative process and it's really been fun learning. Uh, eventually I want to just show up and have really fun conversations with really awesome people like you, but

Kevin Rogers (04:26):

Yeah. And you will, it was just start that conversation. Cause I, cause I'll just keep rambling as you know, so your job is to corral me,

Angie Colee (04:37):

But I don't like, I like letting Kevin the wild stallion run free because it's much more entertaining for everybody. Um,

Kevin Rogers (04:44):

You know, it's funny because uh, well see, here I go already, you didn't even have to ask me a question, but it reminds me of I'm doing it. This'll date the show. So my apologies, but I'm doing a thing tomorrow with Carline Anglade-Cole, uh, she's having the tribute to Clayton Makepeace, right. Legend of our industry who passed away a year ago. And uh, so it's very specific seven minute spot and she's got this list of, I don't know, 20 or so, um, experts, uh, friends of Clayton, you know, leaders of the industry and they all get only seven minute, including Gary Bencivenga by the way, who never shows up for anything ever.

Angie Colee (05:28):

oh wow.

Kevin Rogers (05:28):

Uh, yeah. And so she, but she's I said to her, I said, I do not envy you trying to keep this many people with so much to say on time. And she's like, no, I'm literally going to mute them at seven minutes. They will know. Wow. So.

Angie Colee (05:46):

this is why I love it Carline

Kevin Rogers (05:49):

Yeah. I know. She's very, and I'm like, well, that'll work because I think we, and she's been very direct in, in, in, you know, consistent with that, all the messaging about it. And so I'm like, this is really interesting. I think it's gonna work. And um, you know, um, she, uh, also, you know, so w w when you have that scenario, you know, this too Angie, like as a performer, if, if you have a certain time spot, you can't go under or over, you really gotta hit it. And so I was writing today. I was basically practicing in an email for what I'm going to say. Cause whenever I have a situation where it's gotta be tight, I just write out my answer or what I want to say, almost like a script, right.

Kevin Rogers (06:35):

And then that helps me get my thoughts together, better, you know, through writing then I would just, just talking and, uh, then I sorta practice it once. Uh, but you basically can use that 130 words per minute gauge. So what I ended up writing was 844 words, which is six and a half minutes.

Angie Colee (06:57):

Nice.

Kevin Rogers (06:57):

And I'm not obviously not going to say every word exactly, but I know essentially what I want to say. I know where the emotional check points are and that's going to give me a big advantage of, uh, you know, I think over it, if I just showed up, I was like, ah, I gotta, I'll set a timer. And then I looked down, I was like five and a half minutes and I've barely started what I want to say. You know,

Angie Colee (07:20):

I think that's a really great point because I think a lot of what scares people about public speaking or putting themselves out there getting maybe having a zoom interview like this, um, let alone having a timed segment is that whole, like, what will I say? And if you prepare for it in advance, like you're doing where you write down the message, you practice it a couple of times well then getting on the phone or getting on video, isn't quite as scary. So I thought that was a good thing that you brought up, like knowing in advance. Okay. Well, I got a tight seven minutes. It's time to write this down, get my thoughts in order, practice it. And we're ready to go

Kevin Rogers (07:56):

A hundred percent. And I kind of used that in the email and said, Hey, I'm going to sort of practice with you here. And I said like, here's a great tip. You know, for if you're presenting something is, you know, kind of gave that idea. I did that when I was on entrepreneur on fire. Right. Uh, I literally cause you know, the exact questions John's going to ask, I just wrote out all my answers and what was interesting was it was, it actually made me better live. Obviously didn't read my answers, but actually abandoned one or two of the answers completely and just instinctively went in another direction. But I had was so clear headed about what I wanted to say to each of his questions that it created a certain special ability. Um, yeah. I think people don't prepare in general enough for things in life, you know, either that, or we, I think we overthink and under prepare how's that?

Angie Colee (08:55):

Yeah.

Kevin Rogers (08:55):

There's a, there's a, there's a tweet

Angie Colee (08:57):

I was. Yeah. And I think that totally makes sense because we just kind of pile on all the thoughts and then don't sit down to weed out the ones that don't really serve us. So I think that's totally accurate that we over-prepare, or we overthink and under prepare. Um, Oh man. Yeah. And that, and that's funny too. Cause I've had that come up a couple of times in the prep for the podcast. Um, I've done a couple dozen episodes at this point. So I think we made it past the seven. I'm just over here doing a silent cheer that nobody can see little happy dance. We made it past seven. So, uh, you know, here's to a long and happy podcast. That's probably the number one question I get from all my guests. What questions are you going to ask me? I'm like, I don't know.

Angie Colee (09:37):

We're going to wing it. Yeah. Come prepared to tell a story. And then we're just going to have a conversation and, and gonna let the listeners sit in on the conversation. And it's funny how many, like there are so many great podcasts out there, like entrepreneur on fire where that structure really works and it leads to some really interesting knowledge nuggets. Um, and then there are ones like this where like, I don't know if I could even remember all the questions, even if I had the list right in front of me, I'd be like, Nope, I heard you say something interesting. Let's follow that shiny thread.

Kevin Rogers (10:05):

Agreed. Yeah. I think that's the key right. Is kind of getting a hybrid of those things. Um, w what I love about being, having done so many episodes myself now is that I've identified the five types of episode that I sort of like ended up doing by default and gave a little more structure to them. And what's cool is like, I have one called the wisdom tree episode, which is the most, like my original podcast truth about marketing, where it was always really just a conversation where I was doing my best to just suck all the knowledge I could out of my guest's head. Like mostly selfishly, because these are like my heroes. Right. Um, and so that works, but then I had the one specific question that we always knew we were building up to. What was the most surprising results you ever got from your marketing?

Kevin Rogers (11:00):

And, um, but and so wisdom tree is like that. But then I also have now the freelancers journey episode, which you and I need to do one, and that one's a little more structured. I'll tell you why, because we're also going to start making, we're going to release, uh, um, playbooks with those. Right. And so what I realized through working with my editor on those playbooks is like, it's hard to choose if I, if it's just a wandering conversation, it's hard to turn it into a playbook a little bit. You can grab little nuggets. Right. But the more I structure the conversations, as far as asking at least three or four of the same questions, we know that's what will go in the playbook. Right. And so when you, when you have, when you're trying to deliver it a little bit more like a actionable thing, it that's when you want to, I guess, get a little more structured, I think John did it, I don't know why he did it, but he was very defensive about it, John Lee Dumas, you know?

Kevin Rogers (11:59):

Oh, why defensive do you think? I don't know. It was funny. I had him on my show and, um, I didn't say to him, Hey man, I got to ask you if you ever get bored, asking the same question to everybody. But I think, I think he's been asked that many times. And so it, it made him defensive about it and he just started like ranting. I swear, I didn't ask him that. He just started answering it anyway. And he's like, you know, my, I think my is the best show because I asked the same questions and here's why, and he had this whole sort of passionate theory about it. And I was like, wow, there's a nerve there. And I'm glad I didn't touch, but somehow touched it anyway,

Angie Colee (12:42):

Kevin you're not supposed To touch the things, stop it

Kevin Rogers (12:46):

Fingers away from those nerves. But it was really, it really struck me that he was, but I, I also, he was convincing to, you know, I was like, I could, I could testify this. I don't know if it makes, you know, it does make it a predictable listen, like, you know what you're going to learn. You're not maybe going to get a ton of surprises, but his thing is the surprise. The color comes from what the guest shares. Right. And it's like, it's like any creative cons, cons constraint. Um, once they concentrate that I'm like, that's not a word. I it's a word, but not if you pronounce it that way,

Angie Colee (13:21):

It's the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllable.

Kevin Rogers (13:25):

Exactly. Uh, so, but anyway, yeah. So I think what we're maybe getting at here is as creatives, as people who do a lot of thinking, a lot of coaching, like we do and want to help people a lot, sometimes having restraints on how much we can tell somebody is the best thing.

Angie Colee (13:49):

Yeah. Creativity loves constraints. As far as I've seen, like it's paralyzing when the sky is the limit and there are so many options. Um, and I think even it's interesting that this conversation has turned into kind of behind the scenes on podcasts. Because when we were talking about what to talk about, we were kind of going in a different direction. That's what I love about this. Uh, I've had people come on the show before that have had a similar thing. Like, what should I talk about? And I kind of give them loose categories, like, you know, talk about something that you learned in your business, something that was a struggle or a challenge or a surprise as you were growing your business. And everybody has come up with their own take on a story, which I have found fascinating. Like once I gave them kind of categories or guard rails, they instantly knew what they wanted to talk about, which has been a lot of fun because it's given a lot of diversity to the guests so far.

Kevin Rogers (14:40):

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I think a prompt is all the right. People need to go off. And like you said, think of things in a way they probably haven't before, you know, it that's the thing, w I guess what I was trying to get at before rather clunkily was like, when you're a guest on a show, it forces you to rethink some things you kind of already know that often brings a fresh perspective to it.

Angie Colee (15:07):

Yeah. And figure out how to talk about it in a way, like, there's all kinds of things that I didn't think about before I started. I mean, I thought I'm going to have a podcast and I'm talk to these really cool people. I'm going to learn some awesome things. I'm going to share all this with people it's going to be rad. But then you realize as you start to get on and you record, shows that like, okay, so Kevin and I, you, you and I have been working together for a long time. So we have a lot of context to things like to go back to the beginning of the conversation, like Clayton, Makepeace and Carline Anglade-Cole. And these are people that are heroes in the copywriting industry. And I know that there are a lot, there's a lot of creative crossover in the people that are listening to this podcast.

Angie Colee (15:41):

There's bakers, there's seamstresses, uh, and people that love to, sew people that love to draw us, there's a lot of creative entrepreneurs here. And I didn't even think about that when I first started out, because my natural inclination was to invite writers because that's, I know a whole lot of writers. And so that was one thing that I learned pretty quickly in this podcasting process was to like, give some context as to what I'm talking about when I'm talking about something that's writing specific. So I thought that was a pretty cool learning. And I mean, just producing this podcast has taught me so much, but I remember incidentally that you were the very first podcast that I went on and I was just thinking of,

Kevin Rogers (16:23):

I remember it well.

Angie Colee (16:23):

Oh yeah. Cause we had all of these technical difficulties and I was still at the day job as a corporate copywriter back then. So I literally like stole my boss's office.

Kevin Rogers (16:33):

You're like in a broom closet or something,

Angie Colee (16:36):

I was trying to call in the internet, wasn't working, then my headset wasn't working and Oh my gosh.

Kevin Rogers (16:41):

It was great. Yeah. And, and you, I remember you were, you were sort of super nervous, right. And, um, of course you gave a great performance and great, uh, info as always. But I remember then we did the second one and you were a little, a little more comfortable, but even what I presented to you, you had less resistance. And then you really showed up in stride and then the flood Gates opened and you were like, Hey, I got, you gave me like 10 ideas. And on the next one, we should be do this and we can, you know, it could transition into this. And I was like, wow, this is great. And then we got on the third one and it was like, we'd been doing a show together for a year. You know, it was just like, everything was there. And, uh, it's so cool to see that evolution because you know, it is, that makes me think of a stage time.

Kevin Rogers (17:32):

Here we are, again, both performers, you're a singer. I was a comic, uh, in, there's just some things that can only develop on a live mic. And I call it, you know, I call it stage time. It is same with writing. Like, you know, as much as I want to inspire people to practice their copywriting. I know that until you know you're writing something that's actually going to get in front of an audience if you find another gear. Right. Um, and so yeah, finding ways to get stage time and watching people evolve. Cause you know, it's one of the scariest things to say, it's the same with sales calls, right? Like the thing we've seen many freelancers avoid for too long, it's like, Oh my God, I'm just dreading having to show up and sell myself. They think of it that way. And what if I say the wrong thing? And then if we can convince them to just, it's just a conversation and you're vetting them as much as they're vetting you and then they can kind of calm down. But man, you know, you're, you're, you're fifth, sixth, seventh, you know, quote unquote sales call compared to your first and second are night and day, you know, it's just, and you just got to do it. You just gotta get on stage and do it.

Angie Colee (18:46):

I really do. I'm I'm so glad you brought up that performance aspect of it too, because by now a lot of people know that I'm a singer. What most people don't know is that I avoided singing for years and years and years, I knew I wanted to sing. I was terrified to get up on stage in front of people. I was just like, I had this super irrational fear of, I'm going to forget the words. I'm going to blow a big note, right. When I'm aiming for it. Like I'm just going to make a fool of myself. And I actually, this is 2007. I remember it fairly well. I auditioned, I finally screwed up all the courage and was like, I'm going to audition for this blues band. They gave me a four song set like in front of people in front of a live audience, they brought in a bunch of singers to do just little mini sets in front of the audience I got on stage.

Angie Colee (19:34):

I'm all dressed up. They start the music to the first song of my four song set and I completely drew a blank,

Kevin Rogers (19:43):

Aw man.

Angie Colee (19:43):

completely drew the blank. And the funny thing is that the guitarist, he was also a singer. So that kind of pulled my ass out of the fire there, but he liked gets on his mic and gives me a little bit of the side-eye while he's playing. And he starts singing the words and like, this is what made the difference. I did this instinctively, but I learned so much from this instead of stepping back and letting him perform, I jumped in on a harmony with him and just kind of made it up as I went. And the funny thing is that song sounded great, we got a great reaction. The second song I did the same thing. I forgot the words to the first two songs of My first two of my first set ever as a blues singer. And he did the same thing. He jumped in, I jumped in on harmony. And then for the third and fourth song, we finished strong. I made the band, it was history, but like my worst fears came true. My very first gig and I survived. And that was like the best thing I could have learned, I think.

Kevin Rogers (20:38):

Man That is so great. And you know, I bet, and they probably told you this, the second reason they wanted you in the band was because you stepped up in that moment when everything was going wrong, you were like, all right, I'll figure this out. And, and, you know, pulled through twice in a row. Uh, it, it's funny you say this cause I was watching a band last night and man, I just love watching live music. Cause there's so much going on. I love the communication between everything you're talking about is what I love about being in a room with live music. I love to just observing the band and that guitarist could not get his guitar to work in the first song. Right. And so the sound guy slash opening act was, uh, running up and down on this tiny stage, squeezing between these guys to get to the soundboard.

Kevin Rogers (21:31):

Right. Very disruptive. But I realized, but they're a veteran band. And I said, I said to Michelle, I go, Oh, you know, I know this from the little bit I've played in bands. It's like, Oh, they, they open with that song for this reason. Right. They know there's going to be screw ups in it. And there's going to be sound tweaking and interruptions. It's almost like a throwaway. And the way I could tell because of the, the structure of the song, it allowed them to adjust and things. Right. It wasn't a hard song there wasn't like breaks and things that they needed to be in sync with. Right. Um, and so, but so did the band say to you like Angie, not only are you a great singer, but the way you handle that, it makes us need you in this band.

Angie Colee (22:14):

They, they said it was great. I don't, I don't remember the exact conversation. I remember just being over the moon, like, Holy shit I got it. Even though I messed up, like what the hell? kind of bewildered Um, but yeah, th they said you did the exact right thing. You just kept going, even though there was a mess up and that's really what a good performer has to do. And that, I don't think I even really had that lesson sink in until years and years later when I was, you know, I'm a, I'm an eclectic musical fan. I lean toward rock and blues, but I love all kinds of music. And I was listening one day to an Ella Fitzgerald playlist on my Spotify. And most of the time I can, I'm tuning out music and I'm just writing or I'm doing whatever. And that day, for whatever reason, I tuned in on her rendition of Mack, the knife, right.

Angie Colee (23:02):

When she saying that they're messing up the song and she forgot all the words, and she's just singing it, they're doing all these orchestral hits when she's singing a wreck. And like, it was like, it just proves the point that like sometimes the, the idea that we get in our head of like, I'm going to mess this up and I'm going to be humiliated is just, if you keep going, most people aren't even going to notice because sometimes they're either not paying that much attention or they're so into it that they're just amused if they heard it. And I don't know, almost like an Easter egg, like people love catching that stuff in movies and going, Ooh, I caught a little bit of stuff. That's fun. It makes it even more enjoyable experience for people to catch that.

Kevin Rogers (23:50):

That's a, that's a really good point. Yeah. I'm always aggravated by comics who lean too heavily on the, okay. That one sucked. Here's the next joke, you know, it's, it's like funny once in a while. Right. But if you do it more than once in a set, now you're showing this insecurity and that's a different kind of laugh. It's like people laugh out of, Oh, he released the pressure in the room. Cause nobody's laughing at the actual jokes. But if that becomes the only thing they laugh at, it's a horrible set. You know? And a lot of times countless nights, I sat in the back of rooms watching other comics who, and I could see, cause I was basically in the audience that the audience was having a great time, they just weren't that vocal, you know? And they're, they're, they're laughing and smiling and they're relaxed in their chairs and they're really behind the comic.

Kevin Rogers (24:45):

But the comic isn't hearing what he needs, he or she needs. And so they're sort of berating the audience or, or keep commenting that they're dying when they're not dying. They're just, you know, and I get it like it's, if you can't see the audience and you just don't hear anything, you're going to assume you're, you're kind of dying. But it was always a bummer when I was, I wanted to just like send them a note and said, just, just do the fucking jokes because they're actually, I promise you they're digging it. You know? Um, so I guess the lesson here is like, just, yeah, go with it. It's such a great point. Angie, about the audience mostly has no idea that you're freaking out or that you're messing up. They just, as long as, you know, what did they say? They don't remember exactly what you said. They remember how you made them feel.

Angie Colee (25:29):

Oh yeah. That quote by Maya Angelou. Like, they'll forget what you said. They'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. I've always, always loved that quote. And it's so true. I mean, God, I could tell a humiliating band stories all day. Um, when people tell me that they're scared to put themselves out there and start a business or to like advertise themselves. Cause they'll, I'll embarrass myself and people will make fun of me. And I'll be like, like the time that I had just finished a set with the aforementioned blues band, I had literally just finished singing. Tush, got off stage realized I forgot my drink. And my purse up there went back up there, tripped, wearing a skirt and heels. The skirt came up over my butt. I flashed my ass at. These people I wiped out and we were on a 15 minute break. So like I had to come back after that and keep performing. Like there's no room to run screaming out of the building and vow never to perform again. I got to finish this set after showing people my butt. So I did the only thing that occurred to me. Like I took a big drink of my drink. I got on the microphone set. Apparently I can't sing Tush without showing you my ass. We'll be back in about 10 minutes. All right.

New Speaker (26:43):

That's perfect. I love it. I was going to say at that point, you almost have to do something funny like you did, or just go full on Janis Joplin and you know, Have Far less inhibitions than the audience at that point.

Angie Colee (26:58):

And it was like, it continued, you know, there was another time that I was with a different blues band when I moved to San Francisco. And uh, I was doing a cover of sweet home Chicago, which has some hits and some math in it. I am not a mathy person and compound that with people coming up to the stage and handing you drinks, which they tend to do when you sing in front of a blues band. And there was one day where I was, I think I said like two and two is six or something like that. And my harmonica player, his wife, she, her head just snapped around and she looked at me like you got it wrong. And then from then on, she would throw different numbers, signs with her hands and try and throw me off. Every time we sang that song. So one day I just like out of the blue decided I was going to do this. And I said one and one is two. And when I said one, I would bring up the middle finger on each hand. One and one is two.

Kevin Rogers (27:50):

That's great.

Angie Colee (27:52):

Oh God. Yes.

Kevin Rogers (27:54):

That's better. It's tough. Isn't it? It's like, yeah, again, it's just like how you look, man. That's what you know, so great about being this industry that we're in, where we're essentially small businesses sometimes totally solo businesses. And it's still like a serious enough industry, whereas there's real results and real money on the line and all those things. But yet the looser we play it sometimes the better we are, you know, it when w really we can't show up uptight in this gig. Uh, we got to take it seriously. And sometimes it does become a little overwhelming, but I think we have to like be aware of, and I do this all the time. We just have days where like, man, I'm really up in my head today. Right. And it's like, you can, I like to, this sounds so woo. But I've been doing more of this where I sort of like checking my vibe, checking my energy, you know, internally and going like, Oh wow.

Kevin Rogers (28:54):

I'm like, I'm really wound tight right now. You know, like I've got 10 things running through my head. I feel all this urgency to get things done. Some of it, half of it's real half of it's made up and I'm just pissy and I'm not gonna do anything well today. So I am in this when our buddy, you know, like Mike Rinard has those great, quick breathing exercises, the Wim Hof stuff he's taught us and I'll just sit and do some Wim Hof, or even just take 10 deep, deep, super deep breaths. And like, it's amazing what that does to your chemical makeup in your brain. It's just like, all right, dude, like reset. Here we go.

Angie Colee (29:29):

And reset. Naps are still my favorite reset button, but I hear it. Like you have to recognize and be able to own, okay. I'm feeling pissy. I'm feeling stressed. I'm feeling some kind of way. It's time to shake it off instead of declaring this entire day a bust, because then it gets too easy to have like 10 days in a row where it's just a bust. And like shit, I didn't get anything done

Kevin Rogers (29:53):

My life's a bust! March was a bust. Let's just admit it. Right. Right. Everybody.

Angie Colee (29:57):

Well, we all fired 2020, I don't know, get your shit together. 2021. We will. We'll see. Yeah.

Kevin Rogers (30:05):

We're counting on you, man. Pull it together. Know it's right. We're all on a fence about 21. We're like, all right.

Angie Colee (30:14):

Just like waiting to see, yeah. I'm glad you brought up kind of being yourself as a creative in the industry. Cause I think I learned a lot of that from you when I first started, well, I wouldn't even say it was, I was several years down the path as a copywriter at this point. And I had fallen in with the corporate folks. So I had a certain idea of what it meant to be quote unquote professional. And it was usually like buttoned down, be in the, I had all my tattoos covered. I had my hair done nicely and stuff like that. And I was resentful of it the entire way, because I felt like more attention was paid to my appearance than to the work. And I hated that. And then when I started coming into your community, which is copy chief and interacting, I did take kind of a professional approach at first.

Angie Colee (30:57):

But then what happened over time as I got more and more comfortable was I let the walls down a little bit and I would share my actual reaction, which usually devolves into some kind of ranting, some sort of impassioned ranting, whether it's excited or whether it's frustrated. Um, and over time, that was what I noticed that people resonated the most with. Like when I let the guard down and had my authentic reaction come out for better or for worse, it really, really connected with people. And I love that about being in the creative industry. It's it just, it's the realest work I have ever had the pleasure of doing.

Kevin Rogers (31:33):

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It's so true. I mean, in, it's kind of a, the requirement that we, you know, like we said, don't take things too seriously all the time. Like it is serious business in a lot of ways, but you gotta be real about the struggles and the things. And you've done that amazingly. Like you card now, uh, just share openly. You do have that. The more people respond and you're also known lovingly as the tough talk Angie, right. Is that basically like, you're the one who goes in to have the hard conversation with somebody and does it in such a loving way that they always really appreciate it. And you know, if someone's being combative in the community say, or they feel slighted somehow this doesn't happen often. Right. But, um, when you have a lot of people, every once in a while, a certain person starts to feel a certain way that nobody intended and you are amazing. We always like, Oh, we got to send Angie in because you're, you, you have empathy, empathy overload, and you just really, really get what people want to hear. But you're also because you've lived so many experiences and you wear that people immediately know that they can trust you. You're being honest and they can take it or leave it. But it's probably coming from a very real place. It now they need to own it. Right?

Angie Colee (33:11):

Yeah. I think that's been the funniest part of my journey into, into coaching and working with people and teaching them. What I know is hearing from people, right? People who will reflect back to you, what they see, and it's weird, seeing yourself as someone else sees you, that that was disorienting the first time it happened. But the general reflection that I get from people is they think that I'm some sort of fearless bad-ass that just like goes out there and knows exactly what she's doing all the time. And so it's been, I think, a really good connection point when I share with them like, Oh no, I understand exactly how you're feeling. Trust me. Let me tell you a story about a time that I did the exact same thing. And I was in the exact same situation you're in right now. Uh, here's how I got out of it, if that helps, you know, and just start with a whole heap of understanding versus trying to fix people.

Kevin Rogers (34:01):

Yeah. Yeah. You know, as a, as a parent, I've learned this, I think that was the best thing I ever learned. You know, as a parent, you're constantly wondering how bad you're screwing your kids up. Right. You know, you're obviously trying to do your best. There's some total fail moments that you immediately recognize. Uh, and then there's other just, you know, I don't know any parent who's ever gone man. I am kicking ass. I am killing it as a parent. Right. I've never heard a sincere parents say those words. Um, but the best thing I ever read, it was actually from a book called, um, scream-free parenting. And I just have to caveat that I wasn't really a screaming parent. It's just the title of the book and it was recommended, but it is a really good book. And, you know, I get why parents scream. Sometimes you just have had it, you know, but anyway, um, now I'll take my wings off now and finish the story.

Kevin Rogers (35:03):

But, um, they, they had a thing in there that said, look, when you feel that instinct to start lecturing, which we very often do as parents, because it's based, it was coming from fear of them, not knowing, letting them down them getting hurt, whatever. Right? There's all these instincts that make us want to start lecturing. But if you just stop yourself, catch yourself before you launch into the lecture and instead show empathy. And the exact phrase was, uh, wow, that must've been really hard or that, that must be real. That must be pretty challenging for you. Right. And I love that in the book, they said that this was like a conversation between like a counselor and a parent. And the parents said, if I say those words to my kid, she will roll her eyes and laugh in my face. She will know I am being so contrived.

Kevin Rogers (36:03):

She's like, do it anyway. And then she's like, I couldn't believe it. I did it. And she, she, all she did was start saying, yes, it is really hard. And then she started explaining to me all the reasons why, and then we had an actual conversation about it and it felt great to not be lecturing her. Right. And we actually came up with, and so I read that. And the next time I remember it was Ben was telling me something and I felt that instinct to go, well, here's the problem? You know, you got to do this. Instead of, I just said those. I said, wow, that must be really hard. And he did the exact same thing, Angie. He was like, it is, it really is. And, and here's why, and I'm like, Oh my God, if people just want to be heard, sometimes especially teenagers, they feel like nobody in the world is listening to them, especially their parents and that all this authority around them, they're, they're just coming into a time when they want to break free and have some independence.

Kevin Rogers (36:58):

And they're getting everything feels like opposition and restraints. Right. And so that is that having that empathy, uh, as a, it's funny, because of course we're in the empathy business as copywriters. I knew it inside and out professionally, but as a parent, uh, as a first time I'd ever actually tried using it directly with my child, I get in a conversation. And literally since then I've been in that moment. I became a different parent cause I just always lead, with that now not that I never lecture or whatever, but I at least I, I lead into it with some of that first. Right.

Angie Colee (37:39):

It's interesting how we can come part like unconsciously compartmentalize like that. Like I really understand empathy too. And then find myself being so impatient in certain situations. Let me just fix it for you, but you can't fix other people. And I think like, that's, I'm glad that we're on this little tangent now. This is why I love this show, which is going to talk about whatever. Um, uh, that one of the easy kind of circling back on what we talked about at the very beginning of the call, when people get really uncomfortable on a sales call, it's usually because of this exact same situation right here is because they're listening to something they hear from their prospective client and then prescribing an outcome and really to connect with the client. Like the most natural sales I've ever had is like, Oh wow. That's yeah, that's really interesting. Tell me more about that. Ooh, that sounds really rough. I wonder if we can fix that and just becoming their, their ally, the person that understands them and they can already see themselves working with you when you lead with empathy versus leading with sales.

Kevin Rogers (38:39):

That's so true that this so critical, you just said because, um, and I get that it's hard to do when you, because we build it up in our heads. Like I always equate it to this. It's like, if you show up to a prospect call feeling like a quiz show contestant, right. Who, who has to get every answer, right? Or a buzzer's going to go off and you're going to lose money, you know, then, uh, you know, it, the show who wants to be a millionaire is super tense and fun to watch for that reason. Because every, like what they gotta answer 14 questions to get a million dollars or something, right. And they, if they miss one, they basically lose all their money. Uh, but, and so if we carry that energy into a, a conversation, what should be a conversation with a prospect, of course, we're going to screw up and overthink and it's going to be stilted and weird, you know, cause it's not their job to be a game show host. And it's not your job to pass a quiz. It's just two people having a conversation. And like you said, when you're just doing all the things that copywriters do naturally, like be curious, be inquisitive. Um, not trying to engineer the conversation, just trying to have it. That's when you sort of come to the conclusion, it's a good idea to work together or not.

Angie Colee (39:59):

Absolutely I love this. Oh, this is an amazing conversation. I can talk to you all day long, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to say we are going to do a follow-up for sure. And I'm so excited for part two already. Uh, Kevin, will you tell us a little bit more about where to find you?

Kevin Rogers (40:16):

Yeah. So copy chief.com is where to find me. And, uh, you get all kinds of good information there about how to write better copy. We got a great history in our blog. I'd love for you to subscribe to my podcast. It's called the copy chief radio, and we have amazing people like Angie on to share great lessons. And I try to get what I can from the great leaders of our industry to really go deep in the, you know, as we go on Angie to some of these conversations are becoming time capsules. Again, I'm struck by the, the loss again a year later of Clayton Makepeace. And, uh, I really cherish the interview I got to have with him. Uh, I was listening back to it yesterday and it's like, man, um, incredible stuff he shared. And uh, you know, when we lose greats of an industry, you really are struck by, especially with musicians and copywriters. Like they were the only person who could do exactly what they did. You know, Tom, Petty's the only guy who could write Tom petty songs, you know, um, certain people, the way they play guitar. They're the only one who could do that lick that way. And so, but yet we're all humans, we're all walking around in these containers and they're, they're quite fragile in some ways they don't do well against buses.

Kevin Rogers (41:42):

So, uh,

Angie Colee (41:43):

I'm glad that you said that because that's a good reminder too, that, you know, for anybody listening to this show is saying, yeah, but, or I don't know if I could do that or that works for you, Angie, that works for you Kev. I don't know if I could. You're the only you, there is in the universe after years and years of, you know, evolution and choices that could have been made differently, that results in us being here or not being here at this particular moment in time, you are where you are for a reason, with a purpose, with your unique set of filters and views and perspective, and you can do this. You absolutely can do this. And you're the only one that can do it your way. Mmm I'm getting up, getting on my soap box here.

Kevin Rogers (42:27):

No, it's so true. And I love that, that, you know, we refer to it as their, their unique DNA copywriting DNA or creative DNA because that once you get confident enough in how particularly with copy sort of how the, what the fundamentals are, right, and where you need those, you realize, Oh, kind of here's the full circle. Only I can color in those cons um, constraints, the way, the way I would right, nobody else, would you get blind up a hundred people, give them, uh, uh, uh, the same coloring book page, and they're all gonna look a little different. And, uh, that is what at the end of the day, you will make your Mark with, make your money with is, is how you color in those lines. And so it's just like Angie said, forget competition, forget other people, forget that there's been people smarter, better genius before you, um, just enjoy your journey and embrace, you know, who you are and your unique DNA and you absolutely will make it.

Angie Colee (43:39):

Absolutely. All right. This has been amazing. I want everybody to go immediately follow you at copychief.com and I'm going to not so shamelessly again, plug, uh, copy chief radio. Since I have what I think like five or six episodes with you on that

Kevin Rogers (43:53):

Not enough. That's how many

Angie Colee (43:55):

Go binge listen to all of that. And we're going to have Kevin on again very soon. Thank you so much, Kevin.

Kevin Rogers (44:00):

My pleasure. Thanks Angie.

Angie Colee (44:05):

So that is it another awesome episode of permission to kick ass on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permission to kick ass.com. That is all one word together, permission to kick ass.com, make sure to sign up for my email list so that, you know, whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast out for you. And also on Mondays, I'd like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Mondays ass I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass