Chris Orzechowski (00:02):

Welcome to permission to kick a podcast about leaving self-doubt in the dust, punching fear in the face and taking bold action toward your biggest dreams. I'm Angie Colee, and let's get to it. I'm here with my friend, Chris Orzechowski. I love Chris. I'm a big fan of Chris. I need you to know this because he is Someone who has big, massive ideas, and almost like a deluge, like the Niagara falls of idea producers. And so he often has to find a way to prioritize, categorize, climb these big, tall mountains and achieve these big aspirational goals. And I'm just such a huge fan. Welcome to the show, Chris.

Chris Orzechowski (00:48):

Thanks so much for having me Angie happy to be here.

Chris Orzechowski (00:50):

Yes. So we talked a little bit before the show about your situation. I asked you to think about a time when you were trying to do something new or try something big and you had a bit of a struggle. Did you have something in mind you wanted to talk about?

Chris Orzechowski (01:06):

Yeah. Earlier this year I watched my print newsletter and that was a much longer and more stressful and challenging process than I think I initially anticipated. But in the end it was definitely very worth it, but it was definitely like at least a six month journey to, to prepare and get all my ducks in a row.

Chris Orzechowski (01:27):

And it was one of those things where I kind of had to take a bit of a leap of face being that I was like turning away work assignments, so I could spend more time to work on, you know, getting the newsletter launch and everything else. And I saw my income start to slowly go down month after month, but I knew that there would be this big pay off at the end. So I guess we talked about that. Yeah, that sounds great. One of the things that I've always tried to do, it's kind of like one of my core philosophies comes from the, uh, the book, the richest man in Babylon, which is like a book on wealth building. But the first principle there is paying yourself first. And, you know, with your time with your money, with where you put your focus and attention and emotions and energy and all those things, obviously no, Angie, we, we, we worked together, uh, on Jeff Walker's team and, you know, we've known each other for a long time.

Chris Orzechowski (02:11):

And, you know, I know we both started in a place where most of our income was client work and it was cool. It was, it was, you know, clients are greatest to work with them to this day. But for me, I always wanted a little more leverage, a little more scale, something that had maybe even a little more legacy rather than just kind of doing one off projects here and there. So one of the things I always loved were the newsletters that I would get from marketers like Gary Halbert's newsletter. I remember it was huge on a race to read that I used to read an issue or two every night back when I was still living at my parents when I was starting my copywriting business. And every single night, I would kind of go on this little adventure through Gary's life and listen to him, talk about the projects he was working on.

Chris Orzechowski (02:50):

And like, that was really one of the, one of the people that I modeled for mine. And I said, you know, I want to kind of have that cool thing, but I remember it's like the guy documented entire life, uh, or has at least, you know, his entire business career, his life has he kind of meandered through his career all the way up to B being one of the best in the world. So I was like, that is a cool piece of legacy that you can create. And I said, I kind of want to do that too. That is a cool model. I really like it. And I kind of want to have my own, didn't know anything about doing those that are still kind of relatively new to creating my own digital products. My list is still small and growing. I was still kind of finding my sea legs with that whole experience, but I said to myself, I could wait five years, have to wait 10 years, go wait till I'm 50 or whatever, but I was like, I could wait until I'm older and maybe more accomplished.

Chris Orzechowski (03:35):

And if you want I'm ready or I could just do it and figure it out. And uh, you know, just give myself permission to pull the trigger on that and make it happen. Right? Like that's kind of the whole theme. So I said, I'm just going to do it. I'm going to figure it out. It's not gonna be perfect. I'm probably gonna mess up. I'm gonna skin my knees a few times. So maybe even fist one or two people off, but in the end, we'll figure it out. We'll get through it. Right. And, uh, so I set a launch date that was initially it was going to be the first issue was going to go out February 1st. And I ended up, uh, after the first week after I sent that, I said, let me push it back to March 1st because that's a super ambitious deadline, but everything else I had going on. But, uh, I just said to myself, I'm going to spend the next six months and get everything prepared that I need to prepare and get it all created. And I just created out of nothing essentially.

Chris Orzechowski (04:24):

Yeah. I remember that. And I'll give a little context for everybody. That's listening, Chris and I met as copywriters. So if you've ever watched mad men, we're both big fans of the show, mad men, but basically we write sales materials that commercials and emails and stuff like that. And the guys that he's talking about, Gary Halbert, they have actual print newsletters that get printed up and on special paper and mailed to your house. And Chris wanted to start a paid newsletter similar to that. And I remember you're right. When you were getting ready to launch this thing. Can you tell me a little bit about what was going through your mind on pulling the trigger with that launch?

Chris Orzechowski (04:58):

Yeah. So everything was pretty much ready. I think I still might have been tinkering with the first issue being that I, you know, it was like February 5th, I think was the day. And, uh, so everything was ready. You know, my materials already, my printer was lined up. Everything was good to go the sales page, the order form, like everything was just ready. And I was like, you know, I guess I'll just wait like a week and launch more towards the end of the month. And I was on the call. So you guys, I was like, I just want you to now. And everyone was like, yeah, I do it. So I was like, all right, I think like on the call, I dashed off like, you know, an email to my list that was maybe, I don't know, 50 words long. It was like, Hey, it's here, it's open.

Chris Orzechowski (05:33):

Get it now. And like, you know, I had this, this, this, I w I didn't really know what to expect. Right. Because anytime you launch an offer, anyone who ever says anytime they want an offer for the first time, or, or, or does any kind of marketing campaign. And I was like, Oh, I know it's going to work. You can't ever be a hundred percent certain, there's always weird things that happen. And like, for me, I don't know, you know, my list was only about 2000 people give or take. So I was doing the math. I was like, man, what if only like 12 people joined this thing. Right. And I put in six months of work of a small sum of money for it, for the amount of work and hours and, uh, emotional toil that I put into this. But I think I got 24 on the first day and then 12, the next day.

Chris Orzechowski (06:11):

So in the first, you know, 48 hours, I was at 36 subscriptions. I said, okay, then, you know, now today's the sixth and I have another 23 days of February to go. So I'm like, okay, this thing is going to be okay, it's got legs. I ended up with 175 on that first launch. And it just made everything worth it. Like, it just made all the, all the clients and jobs that I turned away and all the businesses that I had put on hold and parts of my development that I put on hold while I was getting all those things set by just worked out. And, but, uh, if you're, you know, if you're a one person organization and you have good people, you know, like we're in, we're in the supergroup mastermind together, we have good people who will trust you. And aren't just, yes, men and yes, women who are just going to, yeah, it's good. Just do it, just do it, it'll work. And you know, they're just doing that to be nice. You have people give you harsh feedback and let you know, for certain, if you surround yourself with those people, I've always found that it just it's harder to fail that way.

Chris Orzechowski (07:05):

Yeah, absolutely. There and there were two good points that you made in there. One was that you were scared that you were going to put in this much effort, six months worth of effort and then have not enough subscribers to show for it. And I feel like that's a big struggle for a lot of entrepreneurs. What if I put in all this work and I build it and they do not come, and that's a reality in business. That's a very real fear. But I also like to reframe that when we're talking to people that you and I are both, we've coached people that are growing on their entrepreneurial journey. And I remind them that even one sale is a sign. That just means that everything was working for that one person. And you've got to figure out where it fell apart for everybody else. So somebody buying it means that you've got something successful potentially.

Chris Orzechowski (07:53):

And you've just got to figure out how to tweak it until it's running the way you want it to. So that was one good thing that I wanted to highlight that you said. And then there was another, I was reading a book recently where the author mentioned this term that I love and it's called don't borrow trouble. And so the way he framed don't borrow trouble was the way we all, I mean, especially creative people like us get in our heads and we can invent all kinds of scenarios, true story. I once connected advertising my own business to nuclear winter, and use that as a stall tactic, for months, not even exaggerating, I had like a very vivid visual of the big red button. And then we all go, and how dare you advertise yourself? Angie, that's just dumb, but that's borrowing trouble. Right? It's, it's inventing problems that may never actually come to pass and kind of getting yourself stuck as a result. What, what would you say about that? Do you agree?

Chris Orzechowski (08:54):

Oh, yeah. Mean, I catch Myself in that like every single day, you know, there's always the, what ifs. Right. Do you always have those thoughts? And, uh, well, I, I caught myself in that recently when, like, when COVID happened, it wasn't a huge deal, but obviously my newsletter, it probably wasn't the best time ever in the history of the world to watch it a paid newsletter. The, the mail was so jacked up. So like I had a pretty decent churn after that first month, just because there were some, a lot of international people, other people waiting 29 days. I mean, everything has been fixed. Like everything's, you know, FedEx is good now. And first class USPS, I guess our, everything goes out. So I started saying, well, man, what if, what if I can't plug this bleeding? And this happens every month, then four months I have zero subscribers. And then I said, well, what are the chances that really actually happening?

Chris Orzechowski (09:36):

And even beyond that, it's like, well, if I just go on offense and just keep attacking me, you know, even if those like fears do come a knocking at your door, you're going to be able to fight them off. And that's one of those things. I just think it's like, you can just continuously go on offense. You don't give your fears and opportunity to sink their hooks into your brain and kind of like mess with you. So that's why, you know, like every time we talk and run our calls and, you know, I feel like most like, man, I feel like I'm doing too much, but then sometimes I'm like, maybe I'm doing the right amount. Yeah, I'm working. But it's like, if you want to grow, you gotta, it's kinda like if you go to the gym, it's like, you want to grow muscles. Or like, if you lift the same five pound weight every single day, week after week for years, like nothing's going to happen. But if you up the weight and tear the muscle a little bit, it's going to come back and heal. So I don't know. I'm just always big on offense, right? Like offense, offense, offense all the time. Just continuously to just to attack them. I don't know. I know that's kind of a little aggressive and vague, but like, that's just the way that's just my mentality about it.

Angie Colee (10:38):

Well, we used to talk about that in terms of, we both worked for a big name marketer, you mentioned him earlier in the call, Jeff Walker who created product launch formula. And sometimes when we were creating new promotions or new products, we didn't know what we didn't know, but we still had to keep it moving anyway. And I kind of liked how you talked about being on the offensive, moving on the offensive, because we joked about not knowing what we don't know, but still moving the ball further down the field, like a lot. We talked about that. And so I like that, that, you know, you had this problem, you were worried about whether or not this business is going to go away. It's a very real fear, but then you swung the pendulum the other way and started thinking, well, I'm still just going to move the ball further down the field and to move this ball further toward my goal and see what happens. I love that approach.

Chris Orzechowski (11:28):

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it just comes back to all my years of being a wrestler. Sure. Probably any sport. Right. It's all the same stuff at the end of the day. For me, it's like, I never knew if you know, the, the, the attack, the, the leg attack, the shot or, or the mood that I was about to attempt was necessarily going to work. I mean, as you get good, you, you, I guess, so like your subconscious starts to realize it's like, there's probably a 90% chance I could hit this score off it. Right. But at the end of the day, the person can defend, right. So if you take that one shot, you know, get it in the first 30 seconds of the match. Does that mean for the next, you know, six minutes? You just don't ever take another shot.

Chris Orzechowski (12:01):

Like it was no, of course not. You're going to continuously work at a different angle. You're going to move the guy's head. You're going to get them off balance. You're going to try to find a way in, like, you're going to continue to take those attacks until you score. That's just, I don't know. Maybe it's just like my mentality from growing up and all the years of, you know, competing and stuff. That's just the way I was looking at it. I'm not really competing against other people. I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to compete against myself. And then I heard this great quote. This one time I was from Scott Adams. I can't remember exactly. He said that you should never be envious of only one quality or one thing that someone else has, right? Like, unless you're willing to trade every aspect of your life with that person.

Chris Orzechowski (12:36):

And I was like, that is a really good, especially for me, like that was a really good way to reframe everything. Like, there's, there'll be people with businesses that you see or books that they've written, or just things that they've done in their life. And you say, wow, I wish I could have that. But unless you're really willing to trade every single aspect of your life for every single aspect of their lives and all the history and the journey and the, the, where they were born and like all that stuff, right. Unless you're willing to swap every single aspect of your life with theirs, there's no point that always kind of keeps me grounded as well.

Angie Colee (13:04):

No, I like that. And that's such a good point that there are a lot of people out there and I've been there certainly in my life, which it's only human to look at what someone else has. And man I'd give anything for that. Do you know how early they get up? What kind of work they do? What kind of side hustle they have, you know, I've, I've heard people talk about that in the context of Olympic athletes, right? I'd love, I'd give anything to be standing on that podium with them. Okay. Well, are you getting up at four o'clock in the morning and doing four hour workouts and, you know, would you give anything or is that just something that you're telling yourself? And I think that's kind of a key marker of success. Potential, is it not necessarily, are you going to beat your body into the dirt and do four hours of practice, like much respect to Olympic athletes?

Angie Colee (13:49):

I'm never going to be there and I'm totally, totally fine with the fact that I'm never going to be on that podium, but by the same token, you, you kind of mentioned the same thing. If you, if you don't get your shot in, in 30 seconds in the ring, are you going to stop fighting? I've I've used that analogy with some coaching students in mine too, in the past with, if you trip and fall down flat on your face, do you just lay down and wait for death to take you? Like, that's it, I'm done leaves piling on you, bikers riding over you. Like you're a speed bump. I just, I can't imagine in any worlds where, where people would think falling down means that's it I'm done, but we see it so often in entrepreneurship. Like I make one misstep and I'm done. And, uh, I'm here to change that. I'm happy. You're here to help me change that too.

Chris Orzechowski (14:38):

Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of those things too, where like, I think the, the joy and excitement in life doesn't come from times when you are sitting in a hammock on the beach and you have no cares in the world. Like when you back, I don't know. Maybe I'm not at the end of my life, obviously I'm sure when I'm 80 or 70 or 90, or however, a hundred, 150, who knows with medicine nowadays. Right? I think when, when you look back at the end of your life, you probably look at the defining moments, the moments where you succeed, because you were a little scared, or at least you, you, you swung for the fences and tried something that maybe you were scared to do. I don't think it comes from the comfort. I think it comes from the struggle. Those, those moments, you look back to the memories that you cherish most to.

Chris Orzechowski (15:18):

Like, for me, that's kind of one of the frames that I, that I always hold. One of the filters that I look through and say, yeah, this might suck. And this might not work in this newsletter, my flop and this other, you know what I might have just worked for months and, and not made any money off this thing and now have to scramble and do all the things that I don't want him to do, but maybe it does work. Right. And I guess the exciting part is going to be doing it. So I'm going through it. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know if everyone's wild like that, but for me, I'm very big on just, let's try, let you know. I love when people tell me, like, I can't do something. Like I started an agency, I started my agency right after my son was born.

Chris Orzechowski (15:55):

Right in the middle of, COVID probably a horrible time to launch a marketing agency, but you know what, all these people that I've talked to, so many people in the past, like, dude, [inaudible] agency, it's a nightmare. It's not going to be fun. Like, you know, and I said, ah, you know what, I'm going to do it just because everyone's saying this, and I just want to kind of see if we can, right. It's not even like I have a goal or like, I want to do this, those kid. It's like, well, everyone else is saying it's very hard. Which means they're probably gonna be exciting and really cool if I can actually pull it off. So again, it might just be the way I'm wired, but I think it's a mentality you could probably adapt. Right? You gotta kind of love the chaos a little bit and you gotta kind of love those moments when you don't know what the hell you're doing.

Chris Orzechowski (16:35):

And you're just figuring stuff out because then when you do start making little, any bits of progress, that's when you feel really good about yourself.

Angie Colee (16:42):

Oh yeah. And that you are so right about it. It makes the best stories. Nobody starts a story with. So I had like the perfect day and I got up and everything was wonderful. And everybody just claps because your day was so awesome. But it just, life needs a little bit of tension, needs a little bit of chaos. And the story at the end almost always turns out to be worth it. So, Chris, thank you so much for joining. Do you have a website or link where people can check out your work?

Chris Orzechowski (17:10):

Yes. You can get onto my email list by going to www.theemailcopywriter.com. That's the email copywriter.com. Thanks so much, Angie.

Angie Colee (17:20):

Thank you for coming, Chris. And I will have all of your info in the show notes that people can check you out. Talk soon. Thanks a lot. So that is it. Another awesome episode of permission to kick on the books. If you want to know more about the show, if you want to know more about me, Angie Colee and the mission I'm on to help entrepreneurs punch fear in the face and do big bold things, then head on over to permission to kick ass.com. That is all one word together, permission to kick ass.com, make sure to sign up for my email list so that, you know, whenever there's a hot, fresh and ready podcast episode out for you. And also on Mondays, I like to send out a little newsletter called Kick Mondays ass I'm sure you're totally, totally surprised by that. So thank you for being here with me today. I'm Angie Colee. Make sure that you share this with a friend that needs to hear this message today. Like it, share it. Comment wherever you're listening to this today and let's go kick some ass

Speaker 4 (18:21):

[inaudible].