Say hello to Justin, well known for being one of the funniest copywriters out there. Post-divorce and some serious business evolution, he realized cracking jokes every minute didn’t feel quite right. What’s a funny guy to do when jokes have become part of the brand? Justin's here to school us on the art of rolling with punches, and embracing the fact that, like fine wine, we humans grow, change, and get better with time… Listen now!
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Justin’s Bio:
Justin Blackman is a brand voice expert who’s written for more than 429 people and managed to sound like every one of them. He uses an ultra-specific voice mirroring process called Brand Ventriloquism® to analyze and replicate the nuances that make your voice unique, and documents it so you can scale your content without sacrificing authenticity. He’s created voice guides for Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, Todd Herman, Bobby Klinck, and Danny Iny — and worked with top brands including Puma, IHG hotels, 5-hour Energy, and Red Bull.
When not embellishing his own bio, he runs workshops at the Brand Voice Academy to evolve your style and add punch, power, and pop to your everyday writing.
All the people say he’s pretty fly for a write guy.
Resources and links mentioned:
Let's collab:
Let's connect:
If you dig the show and want to help bring more episodes to the world, consider buying a coffee for the production team!
Say hello to Justin, well known for being one of the funniest copywriters out there. Post-divorce and some serious business evolution, he realized cracking jokes every minute didn’t feel quite right. What’s a funny guy to do when jokes have become part of the brand? Justin's here to school us on the art of rolling with punches, and embracing the fact that, like fine wine, we humans grow, change, and get better with time… Listen now!
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Justin’s Bio:
Justin Blackman is a brand voice expert who’s written for more than 429 people and managed to sound like every one of them. He uses an ultra-specific voice mirroring process called Brand Ventriloquism® to analyze and replicate the nuances that make your voice unique, and documents it so you can scale your content without sacrificing authenticity. He’s created voice guides for Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, Todd Herman, Bobby Klinck, and Danny Iny — and worked with top brands including Puma, IHG hotels, 5-hour Energy, and Red Bull.
When not embellishing his own bio, he runs workshops at the Brand Voice Academy to evolve your style and add punch, power, and pop to your everyday writing.
All the people say he’s pretty fly for a write guy.
Resources and links mentioned:
Let's collab:
Let's connect:
If you dig the show and want to help bring more episodes to the world, consider buying a coffee for the production team!
Angie Colee (00:00):
Welcome to Permission to Kick ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, welcome back to Permission to Kick ass, with me today, making his second appearance is Guadalupe Hidalgo, AKA Justin Blackman
Justin Blackman (00:41):
. You did it. I love it.
Angie Colee (00:43):
I did it. I, I have this for everybody listening that's like, what the fun just happened. Why does this even make sense? I have a checklist that I run every guest through that always ends with me asking every single person, even if I know them, I just wanna get in the habit of, please tell me how to pronounce your name, how you would like me to introduce you. And Justin goes, Guadalupe Hidalgo. And I was like, you think I won't ? Uh, and turns out I will. So, anyway. Hi Justin. Welcome back to the show. Please tell us a little bit about your business.
Justin Blackman (01:14):
Alright, so I am Guadalupe Hidalgo, , AKA Bustin Blackman. If you read my emails, sometimes I, I send them from that. So, uh, the, the messiest copywriter around. Um, but I'm a brand voice expert, and the short version is I help brands of business owners define their voice in a scalable way, and then I train copywriters to come in and mirror and duplicate it.
Angie Colee (01:40):
I think that is such important work. Um, and it's fine. I can't even remember where I saw it recently, but I, I saw this discussion where somebody said, you know, voice isn't that important in the scheme of things. And I heard somebody say it brilliantly and sarcastically, which, you know, I love, which was like, write it in the wrong voice and tell me what happens. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (02:00):
,
Angie Colee (02:00):
You think voice doesn't matter as much as just the facts. Yeah. And write it in the wrong voice and submit it to the client and tell me how they react. Sure, yeah.
Justin Blackman (02:08):
That someone was me that was in the Facebook group. Oh,
Angie Colee (02:11):
I was . See, look, you're out there sharing wisdom, and I was just like, I was soaking it in without even crediting you. Now we've got the credit credit with credit.
Justin Blackman (02:19):
It's the first time I've ever been quoted back to myself unintentionally. So .
Angie Colee (02:24):
Well, I love it when that happens. Um, but yeah, I kind somebody who used to go ghost as a guru, I get that. Like, and anybody who doesn't understand the power of that branding, I mean, I was working with a client recently who sounds kind of generic, and it's really unfortunate because I have spoken to this person. I have heard them get ignited and like lit up and fiery and passionate and off, and I had to be the one to tell them there's none of that on your website. Like, was that a, was that a choice? Is that a, a like stop gap until you can do different version of the website, like, what's going on here? And unfortunately, it was a choice because they believed they had to be this professional version, otherwise they wouldn't attract the right people. Right. And I always, I, I kind of love hate being the one that has to break it to people going, no, they want you, you are the reason that they're going to work with this business. So you have to be willing to say something to that effect and be yourself. Would you agree?
Justin Blackman (03:26):
Yeah. Uh, a hundred percent. It's one of these things that there's so much competition in the marketplace in every single niche that the voice is the one thing that differentiates you. Mm-Hmm. . I mean, if you're selling a physical product, yeah, there are some more details and reviews are big there too. But very often, like I have the data that shows that that voice can make a difference. A comical style can make it Mm-Hmm. make it, you know, more impactful and resonate more sometimes. That's literally the only thing that separates you. And I mean, we're in a, a place now where even if you're selling like knowledge products, like knowledge is, is basically free at this point. Mm-Hmm. it's what the internet is for. There's no lack of knowledge, but we get to choose who we wanna learn it from. Mm-Hmm. . And that's where voice separates you.
Justin Blackman (04:08):
That's what differentiates you from everybody else. We're all teaching, well, not we're all, but there's a lot of people teaching the same thing. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, it's just whatever your unique spin is. And you know, very often the, the unique spin is it's just you, it's your personality and the way that you come across and Mm-Hmm. , if we can make it a little bit more fun or a little more educational or a little more stuffy depending on what the client wants, that's, that's the way to do it. That's the way to attract people who are the right fit for you rather than, you know, Joe generic.
Angie Colee (04:39):
It's interesting that you say Joe generic. 'cause I, I think one of the ways that I see a lot of business owners struggle in talking about things is they come up right against this belief block that I, well, there's nothing new. I can't say anything original about this. Somebody else is already teaching this way better than I could. And to those folks, I, I usually like to say, yeah, but maybe if this person that you're trying to reach, that you're trying to help has heard this a hundred times before and it never clicked, what if your way of saying it is the one that finally makes it make sense? Right. Yeah. Wouldn't you be doing them a disservice if you didn't just say it the way that you felt like it needed to be said?
Justin Blackman (05:20):
Yeah. I, I mean, look there and depending on what your, your niche is and what you're teaching, uh, it might be that there's been nothing new since like the third century. Uh, you know, the, the stuff that we teach, the persuasion skills of cell skills, what, whatever it is, communication skills, it's still the same. We've had different mediums. You know, there's texting and TikTok and the, the, the, the Snapchats and, and all that stuff, . But the chat snaps. Um, but the way that we communicate and the way that things resonate, those are deeply personal. Mm-Hmm. , there are best ways to do it and proven in methods, but whatever your spin on it is, is the way that it works. I mean, I think that they said that there's only like seven different frames of, uh, seven different themes for movies. Yes. There are thousands and thousands of movies. Mm-Hmm. . So there's, it's all just about the voice. It's about the personality, it's about the, your delivery of it that makes it unique. Mm-Hmm. . But it's going to resonate with someone or not. And even being willing, willing to, uh, put that line in the sand or be like, Hey, I'm going to do this, and it's going to not attract certain people. And finally being okay with that, that's when you kind of cross over to the, to the next threshold and, uh, and, you know, make your mark.
Angie Colee (06:33):
Mm-Hmm. . And it's interesting, like, I feel like I had a discussion, this is in a different Facebook group recently where, uh, somebody that was on the newer end of the spectrum in, in copywriting, and I think didn't, didn't know who I was in the context I was giving, uh, not that I'm all some self important person, but as somebody that hires copywriters, I had probably a different perspective from the people that are just trying to walk these people through a lesson. Right. And the, the text of the lesson said, you know, this needs to be a unique idea, something that hasn't been, that's not similar to something that's been done before. And I said, okay, I have a little bit of a different perspective. Right. And this is happening in the news all the time. You see somebody, like, for instance, AI is the hot button right now.
Angie Colee (07:15):
Why AI is going to kill the copywriting industry. That's an article a related not entirely unique article that is very similar to the initial one would be a reply article, a response article, an attack article that says, that article says that AI is gonna kill copywriting, and here's the reasons why they're wrong and pick it apart point by point. Both of those things can exist at the same time and be very similar, but have very different takes. Right. So if you focus on, it has to be a hundred percent unique, it has to never have been heard before. I feel like that almost is a fear tactic, like stalling yourself out from saying something for fear, that it's not woody and brilliant and unique, and you don't have to work that hard. You really don't .
Justin Blackman (08:02):
Right. You just have to have your angle and your perspective. That's what's gonna make it interesting. Mm-Hmm. , uh, I mean, look, there's, there's, uh, an old Freakonomics episode that I love and it was called, your News is Biased, and that's the way that you like it. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and you know, it's true. Like you can watch a, a presidential debate and the, the, the, the summary of it on Fox News is gonna be completely different than CNN or MSN bbc. Yes. It's, it's going to lean one way or the other, and you're going to most likely go to the site that, uh, that agrees with you because it's going to support your belief. It's the confirmation bias. Mm-Hmm. that's what we want. People are looking for that. And yes, there absolutely are, um, the things that are right down the middle that have an objective opinion, but literally, I can't name a single one right now, ,
Angie Colee (08:50):
It's probably more like BBC and NPR. I mean, they lean a little bit left of center, but they tend to be unbiased and present both sides. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (08:58):
But it's because, and it's funny because when you go to those things, NPR probably, uh, I'm gonna say almost definitely does lean left of center, but the people who read that will say like, well, I go to NPR because it's unbiased. No, it's not. Yeah. It's just, it fits your bias. It's like saying, Mm-Hmm, , I don't have an accent. Other people have an accent. it, everybody has one. It's gonna sound different to somebody else, but it's just what you're used to hearing. Mm-Hmm. and being able to, one, acknowledge the fact that you have an accent, and two, understand that other people have it and they don't sound funny, they just sound different. Uh, that's, that's one thing that makes them unique. Mm-Hmm. , you know, that that's, that's the, that's how you define the voice, and that's how you take your stance and understand your approach is gonna be a little bit different than someone else. And that's a good thing.
Angie Colee (09:42):
Yeah. And it can, it can change, it can be situational and context dependent. I, I remember finding it fascinating because in the early days of the internet, right. And nobody knows really anything about the world yet. Uh, I would tell people I'm from Texas, and they would ask me, so should you ride a horse to school? And I'd be like, well, they're a little missy, I guess. No, I barely have a southern accent. It really comes out if I'm off or drunk. And then I'll be like, Hey darling, you don't know who you just, but for the most part, I don't have an accent. Your biases are incorrect. But it was funny when a few years back, I went to Fiji and I met up with friends of mine who are all from New Zealand, and I had the sudden realization that I am the one with the accent here. Yeah. Like, I'm the one . So, and this is so weird to me, . Yeah. Because, because I'm used to, especially in South Texas, if you come here with a British, Australian, New Zealand accent, we're like, talk more. It sounds funny,
Justin Blackman (10:42):
Lock
Angie Colee (10:42):
Your accent.
Justin Blackman (10:43):
Uh,
Angie Colee (10:46):
No matter what you have to say, there is somebody out there who finds that fascinating, who wants more of that, who wants to hear you say it. And I think rather than trying to adjust who you are to fit the people around you, your job is to go find the people elsewhere who really vibe with what you have to say in the way that you say it.
Justin Blackman (11:06):
Yeah. I, I do kind of want you to finish the rest of this interview in Slingblade, but That's okay.
Angie Colee (11:12):
.
Justin Blackman (11:13):
I like the way you talk too. . Yeah.
Angie Colee (11:16):
I, I've had people make fun of that before I was like, I, I can bring out the draw when I want to. And they were like, really? And I was like, Hey there darling. How y'all doing today? Yeah,
Justin Blackman (11:24):
Yeah. Gimme a couple of shots of whiskey and you'll hear Jersey .
Angie Colee (11:28):
It's not the Angie that I know. I know it's not the Angie that, you know. Um, actually here a little delightful segue. Right before I went to grad school, I was working four part-time jobs at the same time to save up money. One of those was waiting tables at a local diner. And I remember having a discussion with people and we were having a great time. And they asked me at one point, 'cause they had asked me about my tattoos, which are in French, and I'm explaining the meaning behind these tattoos. And the woman looks at me and goes, I don't understand. Why are you waiting tables? And I said, do you want the truth or the socially acceptable answer? She's like, uh, the, the truth. And I was like, the truth is, I'm the house, the baby. I am really good at making people feel taken care of, uh, running multiple tables, taking care of big groups.
Angie Colee (12:16):
And they pay me very, very well for this. I make more in a few hours on my feet of running back and forth than most people make in an office all day. She goes, Hmm. And what, what wa what was the other one? The other one was, oh, I wasn't really built for an office, like eating different people. And the food is a nice perk and I can't really sit still for all that long. And she goes, okay, well what's what's really interesting to me is that your, your accent changed when you were telling that story. And I was like, oh, yeah. That was like an informal experiment that I did several years back where I spoke in my normal voice and then I did the southern draw. Hey, there y'all, how y'all doing today? Can I get you some sweet tea? How, what, what's going on? Why you doing sweetheart? Mm-Hmm. uh, people paid me more when I used a Southern accent. So I use it very strategically. 'cause that's what they want to hear from me. They like the southern accent. So I did it. So that was interesting little detour. But what I learned waiting tables is people pay more money when I use the Southern draw.
Justin Blackman (13:13):
Yeah. I, I mean, it spends, uh, where you are, it was , but it was, it makes it more authentic. It makes the experience more, uh, more believable. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, everyone's playing the, you're fitting the, the role that people expect you to have. Yes. You're spending, they're, it means that they cast the character well.
Angie Colee (13:31):
Mm-Hmm. . I like that. If you think about playing a character, actually that ties into what you wanted to talk about, which I know. So you've been on the show before, if anybody listened to, it's a fantastic episode. It's episode number 15. And we talked about kind of confronting the belief system and, you know, doubting your skills as you develop. So since then, you know, obviously Justin has, has created a killer business for himself, uh, has become known, become known as this brand voice expert. And that evolution comes with its, you know, next level problems. One of which you talked about was, uh, character Justin versus real Justin. So do you wanna dive into that a little bit more?
Justin Blackman (14:10):
Yeah. So there's been, there's been just changes in my life that have affected me personally and as well as my business. Mm-Hmm. Um, I'm trying to remember when the last episode was actually, I think I do remember. So I went through a divorce and like, it just kind of tears you down to the studs to figure out like who you are. And when you come back, you're gonna be a little bit different. Yeah. And that's okay. But you also shed some stuff that, that is there and, you know, you're getting a little older and all that stuff. So you're, you're physically and emotionally, uh, changing and, um, you're just sort of developing and you shed some stuff. And I realized that that was happening in my life as well as in my business. So my business was, uh, originally when I started writing, it was fun, it was punchy, it was entertaining.
Justin Blackman (14:58):
And, and I had, uh, I was, I ranked pretty, I think I was the second search result for Funny Copywriter at one time. And I was like, yeah, you know, nice. Juliana Patch was number one, and I was, I was on a mission to take her down at one point, but then like a whole bunch of life changes and like kind of got more serious, discovered brand voice and focused more on that. And I wasn't really funny anymore. And like, I could still be fun, but I wasn't funny and trying to be funny in emails felt a little, like, it felt forced. And I, I wasn't quite there. And then I was a little sad about that, which made the emails less funny. And then like, the brand was growing and I was getting known as the brand voice guy, and I was focusing more on that.
Justin Blackman (15:35):
And I was like, you know what? I'm actually gonna, I'm not gonna be funny on this. Like, I, I'll still have a little bit of fun, but I want, I wanna actually own my authority rather than just be likable. I want people to come to me because of I know my stuff. Mm-Hmm. . And then they did. And then it was like, well, if I'm growing this whole brand voice side, does it need to be funny? Yeah. Or maybe, maybe like, I can still be fun and I can still have, uh, have fun with my writing, but the brand doesn't actually need to be fun anymore. Mm-Hmm. . And like, I can be fun, but the brand could actually be, be built on its authority and what I can help you do and what I can help you achieve. People aren't looking me, looking to me to teach them how to be fun. I mean, sometimes they are, and I still teach that. Yeah. But for the most part, people were coming to me because they wanted to learn voice, but I was also fun. So I realized that the brand was built on authority, but me personally can have a little bit of fun and a little bit of, of entertainment in it. It just didn't have to carry over into every single website.
Angie Colee (16:34):
Yeah. I like that, that clear distinction I wrote down while you were talking about that is funny. The thing, uh, and I think that happens to a lot of us where we get so attached to one aspect of the personality or one way of doing things Yeah. That when it becomes a struggle, like you mentioned, uh, we start to doubt like, is this the right direction? Am I doing the wrong things? And it's, it's not necessarily that you're doing the wrong things. It could be that you were ascribing like the wrong level of importance Yeah. To this one thing, which is just part of the overall hole and it's not the thing.
Justin Blackman (17:11):
Yeah. And, uh, it's kind of like when you have a personal brand or a brand that feels personal, you have to realize that that's own thing. Mm-Hmm. , it's, you are the brand, but you're also not, you're also a person. The brand isn't 100%. You, you don't have to be 100% the brand. You leave certain things out on, on each side. Mm-Hmm. You make a Venn diagram and maybe fun and, you know, comical or, uh, you know, cheeky friendly, reflective, nostalgic, maybe those are things that are just yours but aren't part of the brand. Mm-Hmm. . And that's okay. That actually makes it easier to grow and to scale because you don't constantly have to, to be yourself 100% of the time. And you can lean on the power of what you're teaching, what you're selling, what you're offering, and you can build that. And also teams can come in and they can do that too, without having to try to be you or without having to hide parts of them. You can figure out what's in that middle of the Venn diagram, scale that part. Mm-Hmm. . That's what makes a, a good brand and a, a, something powerful. Something that can grow without being so exhausting all the time.
Angie Colee (18:15):
Oh yeah. It's, it's interesting to me. I, I wrote down like, the team doesn't have to come in and be you. And as somebody that was the voice for a well-known guru, I like that you pointed that out because I was very clear with my teammates, especially since I was the one, I worked very closely with him for nine months. And then when we hired on the team, I was the one that was responsible for translating the voice to them and guiding their work. And I would tell them, it's not important to me that you get it a hundred percent right. And here's why, because you're not Jeff. You're never going to be in his brain with his lived experience. You are coming from your own lived experience, and that is valuable. And so if you can get to 80, 90%, and I can get to 80, 90% and they can get to 80, 90% those combinations, all of us talking as our version of him is what's going to make this sound like a very rich three-dimensional person instead of a caricature.
Angie Colee (19:17):
Like, I don't want you to change who you are to write as him, I just want you to understand how he thinks. And that's the difference. Um, and the other thing that I wrote down, which I thought was really funny, was I've been accused of having a split personality before. It's by our, our mutual friend Jimmy Parent, who is also a super funny dude. Uh, and he very accurately pointed out to me one day that I took it kind of in the opposite direction from you, that I was very, very serious in the emails that I wrote where on social media and in person, I'm laughing and joking and I talk about holding court at events. I'm usually in the middle of a circle telling a very wild gesticulating story. . Right. But then my emails, when I came out, I always just, there was this, I don't know, uh, subconscious, unconscious belief that I had to like pontificate and drop some wisdom on people. So the tone of my emails would be very serious. And then one day he pointed that out to me is like, you know, there's like two, there's two Angie's. There's the Angie that sends the email, and then there's the Angie that interacts on social media. And it would be great, you know, if, if those weren't two separate people Mm-Hmm. if you could have more fun in the way that you teach. And I was like very resentful at first. 'cause I didn't know how to have fun while teaching . Yeah.
Justin Blackman (20:32):
Yeah. It takes a while. I'm a teacher, people are looking at me, you know, for respect. So I have to be like my high school English teacher or the tweed jacket with the patches on the side and the tie and all that. I have to be pipe business woman manji or businesswoman Bustin Blackman. And her Guadalupe had all go . So you, like, you have that character and you're, you're cast to play the character. And, you know, kind of sticking with this analogy, even if you look at, uh, a TV series of, um, let's go with, uh, you know, parks and Rec. If you look at Leslie Knope and season one verse season four, they're very different. Mm-Hmm. . So the person grows, they develop into it, the character grows, it gets more depth. You learn more than what they are as just the parks and rec director and who they are as a person. And you begin to like them more as a person. It shows up more and more and it gets more fleshed out and, uh, and more complete. And it Mm-Hmm. it sleeps over into your business. And maybe some of the authorities, uh, steps back and some of the accessibility steps in and realize that's okay. And that's actually what made your favorite teachers in in class. Yes. The ones that you would
Justin Blackman (21:36):
Later on wanna hang out with in the parking lot and, you know, have a soda with, um, that's what made them more human. Mm-Hmm. as opposed to that one that like you saw in the grocery store one week when they're like, oh my God, you're actually a person. Like, you're not just a teacher. You realize that there's depth to them, .
Angie Colee (21:52):
Yeah. Really a real life human being. It's very interesting. I mean, I know I've told this story on the show a couple times before, but this really became clear to me, and you know, obviously it's a lesson that I've had to learn over and over and over again. And I think that's the reality of growth as both a human and a business owner, is that you're going to learn the same lessons over and over again in different contexts. I see it as an upward spiral. You're gonna encounter the same problem at a different level as you continue to move up. So the first time I ran into this problem of like, character Angie versus Real Angie was at, and I know that, you know, it was a, a Ryan Leveque event, and Kevin Rogers had hosted a private event for people. And so I'm there and I'm meeting a lot of people from the copy chief community for, uh, for the first time.
Angie Colee (22:38):
And so for those of you who are listening for the first time, who are like, what the? Who are all these people? Uh, Justin and I met, uh, through copywriting communities, very various copywriting communities, but we share a mentor, a man by the name of Kevin Rogers, who founded Copy Chief and who is indirectly responsible for the name of the show, permission to Kick ass. That's a fun story that I will tell another time. But anyway, I'm at this event, and at the time I was still a corporate copywriter. I hadn't taken the leap and gone freelance, and I was still very much what I believed the world wanted from me buttoned down. The bright hair didn't exist. The, the tattoos were covered up. I would, I think I went to that event with the retainer in place covering my piercing. So that wasn't obvious.
Angie Colee (23:19):
And I remember very quietly sitting at the bar, just kind of listening to everybody talk and like nodding, but, but deliberately trying not to like, take a stage, so to speak. And then of course, the inevitable happened. I had a couple drinks, somebody was like telling a story, and somehow we wound up on the topic of rock concerts, which I'm a rocker, and I found myself telling this story about how I got into a fight in a mosh pit. And I literally watched people go lean in. Who is, what is this? This is Fasci. I didn't know. How did I never know that you were in a mosh pit fight? And I was like, oh, there's a lot that you probably don't know about me. And they were like, what? And I was like, like these tattoos and holy, that ink is amazing. And so then I'm taking off my jacket and showing them my tattoo sleeves. And that was really the first indication that I had that, like, my take on things, my lived experience as inappropriate as I felt like it was, was fascinating and built a genuine connection with people. And that a lot of the struggle that I'd had up until that point was my refusal to just be myself because I thought it wasn't good enough.
Justin Blackman (24:31):
Yeah. No, and that's it. It's, these are one of the things that I talk about in like with my brand is like nostalgia. It's Mm-Hmm. . It's the, the connector. There's a reason why I put movie lines in a lot of my, in my emails. There's a reason why Super Grover is sitting over my shoulder . It's because when people see it, they, they, one, it says who I am without me having to tell them Mm-Hmm. It's like, oh, this person's fun. They, you know, they've got a little bit of, you know, entertainment, little playful, childlike, uh, elements to, to them. Um, I like that. That's actually gonna make, that's something I can talk about and I don't just have to talk about business. Yeah. And like, what's the story behind that? They want to hear that and they have a connection to it because they have a story about the same thing too.
Justin Blackman (25:13):
And, you know, pop culture and nostalgia, that is a big part of my brand because it is that human connection that a lot of people are looking for. Um, and I want people that, uh, you know, that that's, I want people that can relate to that. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, it's like if, even if you're, I've got some Star Wars stuff behind me, if you're a Star Trek fan, we're probably gonna fight a little bit. But that's okay. It gives us something to talk about that's not just work and, you know, it's something to joke about. And, um, you know, I can send you gifts and memes and it'll, like, you'll get to see who I am as a person rather than just a, a business person and or just a brand. Mm-Hmm. . And it's gonna make you someone that I'm gonna, that, that you're gonna want to go have a beer with. Yes. That's the main thing. We don't just have to talk about business. It's the, it's the details outside of business that really connect us. Hmm. And sometimes that comes across in a brand. Sometimes it, like, I don't lead with that. It's just, it's a secondary supporting element of my authority. So it makes, you know, and like, but it actually, well, it, it improves the, the, the like factor. And it actually helps with a trust factor as well.
Angie Colee (26:19):
What do you mean? You don't walk into a room and go, hi, I'm Justin and I'm a human . That's not suspicious.
Justin Blackman (26:24):
human being.
Angie Colee (26:26):
Yes. I am a human being. Whoop. Sorry, I'm a human being . Um, no, I, I find that interesting and I, I love that we're articulating it because I think it's one of those things that if you get it, you don't think it needs to be said. But I, I think it does need to be said that no one expects you to be a quote unquote professional all the time. And another one of those aha moments for me was the first time I went to this super high, we're talking like Ritz Carlton. I'm in a very fancy hotel at a very high-end mastermind. And I find myself at the bar at some point. And I started off sitting there by myself, just kind of having a glass of wine and eating some snacks. And eventually other attendees joined me. And then we got in this very animated conversation, and that's how I found myself invited over to the lounge area with a bunch of drinks, playing a very raunchy game with a whole bunch of other business owners and going, this is business. Yeah. I like this. I like this. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (27:21):
Everybody like
Angie Colee (27:22):
That. And I did like totally inappropriate humor by the way. And good. I had two people call me after that and be like, I freaking love you. We need to find a way to work together. Yes. And that was the easiest business I ever closed, where I think that people that fall under that misinterpretation of like, I have to be professional. And that's what is going to make people have faith and confidence in me wind up being the people that show up to that event and like throwing a business card at you and then hauling because they're so uncomfortable.
Justin Blackman (27:50):
. Right. Themselves. . Right. So, so let's go back to this one. So you telling ranch raunchy jokes, all this stuff late night, that's you, that's who you are. That's what people want. It's not necessarily part of your brand, but there are some elements of it. Even the name permission to Kick ass. Like, Mm-Hmm. got a curse in there. Oh my God. They're like, Mm-Hmm. How are, how are you allowed to do this? How could you run?
Angie Colee (28:11):
And a conversation at the bar, right? Like, everybody asks me about that. So what's your show about? And I'm like, I like to call it a conversation at the bar between entrepreneurs. Yeah. This is the that we would talk about after the business event is over.
Justin Blackman (28:23):
Right. And it's just only appropriate that I'm drunk right now. Yeah. So it works out well, . Um, but no, like, these are the things that you don't have to be business all the time. You're allowed to be yourself in a business setting. And knowing how far to carry over some of these more personal Rauner details into business, I think is like, the line's got a little blurred for a while. Yes. And especially with vulnerability and all that stuff. People like, they weaponized vulnerability as a sales tactic. Yes. We've gone too far. And I think it's like, well, no, I am the brands and this is me. So it has to be in there. No, it doesn't. It absolutely does not. You can have personal you and they can have business. You, they can be separate things. Mm-Hmm. , there's definitely going to be an overlap, but it's absolutely okay to have to have each to have separate elements in them.
Justin Blackman (29:15):
And that's actually better for the business. It's also better for you because some things are yours. Yeah. You get to keep them, you get to keep them for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for private moments. Keep that stuff for yourself. No one's ever gonna be able to scale that for you. If you're working with a team with writers, it's gonna be more polarizing. Mm-Hmm. maybe not necessarily in a good way. I mean, it's okay that it's polarizing, but you get to choose if it enters into your, into your brand or if it's really something that you just wanna keep for yourself,
Angie Colee (29:46):
That you brought that up. Because I do think that there, you know, there's some resistance to people kind of stepping up and becoming a public figure because of that belief that they have to be like a hundred percent on and share everything. Or they kind of get resentful about being a public figure because it feels like everybody feels entitled to everything. And I like that you talked about, you get to keep that for you. You get, you have permission to keep some things to yourself. Being a public figure doesn't mean that you have to share everything all the time. And I like to think of, uh, you know, I think of ideas and people in a similar manner. It's a jewel. And depending on how you turn it, it's gonna catch the light differently. And it might, uh, you know, do a little color change in this light.
Angie Colee (30:29):
And it might just get super shiny in this one. And it might be a big sparkle and it might be a small sparkle, and it might be a little bit dull on this side, but we get to turn that juul over and figure out which way we like to look at this the most. Um, and you don't have to share everything to be impactful, to still be a real human being. You get to keep some, and I'm just gonna repeat that 'cause you get to keep some of this for yourself. Being a personality brand doesn't mean that you have to share everything.
Justin Blackman (30:58):
Yeah. And even being a person doesn't mean you have to share everything. Yes. . It's, uh, one of the, the fights I get in with, uh, with my girlfriend a lot is like, she always wants to take pictures and post things a lot. Mm-Hmm. , I don't, if I'm in a moment, I don't reach for my phone because that takes me out of the moment. Mm-Hmm. And like, take a picture of like, I'd rather not, I want, I wanna stay right here, . And like, I like to share it to make it more real. But I understand that she does, because that's her, her, her, her, her memory book. Mm-Hmm. That's her Mm-Hmm. Album. She can go in. So she does it for her. Um, whereas I, I'd rather, I'd rather remember it rather than look at a photo of it.
Angie Colee (31:33):
Well, and that's a perfect example of like how you can still, you can work together, you can have a symbiotic relationship, want two different things, operate from two different places and still be great together. Right. Whether it's a client, whether it's an interpersonal relationship, you don't have to think the same, believe, the same be a hundred percent in alignment for this to work really well. And in fact, having complimentary skills or desires is often a benefit, right. Because maybe you do wanna have pictures at some point in the future. And so her pushing you out of your comfort zone to get some pictures in the moment, while it might be temporarily uncomfortable in the moment, you're grateful for that later, for being able to review these photos and, and spark the memories and the joy. Um, and by the same token, she might be grateful for the reminder to live in the moment, to not always feel called to document this, to like, pay attention to the here and now instead of living for the future when we'll look at these images and smile, right. Be a little bit more present. So the very fact that we all have these different takes and these different personalities and these different priorities means that we can have an impact on people in a whole lot of ways. Yeah. I love it.
Justin Blackman (32:41):
Yeah. No, that works out well. It just makes you more well-rounded as a brand, as a person, as a, well, I guess as a person first and as a brand. Yes. ,
Angie Colee (32:51):
Uh, and you are a infinitely complex, layered human being. I feel like I, I've said this a couple of times recently, but like, think about the miracle that you are. And if you haven't thought about that recently, here, here's your call to think about that. Do you know how many thousands upon thousands upon thousands of things over thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of years had to line up just right for us to be right here, right now in this moment talking. Yeah. It's a miracle, my friends. You are a miracle. I am a miracle. I don't say that with any trace of like pretension or self-importance. Like it's a miracle that we are here, that we get this one life. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to build your business a certain way. You don't have to live and die in a cubicle. I'm getting off my soapbox now,
Justin Blackman (33:40):
. That's all right. I'm not gonna lie. A little piece of me died when I realized that you were talking to the audience and not just me. When you're saying you're
Angie Colee (33:47):
A miracle, Justin,
Angie Colee (33:53):
I wanted to circle back to something that you said about weaponized vulnerability, which I do think is important to talk about because everybody has their story, everybody has their journey. But I do agree with you that in a lot of personality brands, it seems like there's an emphasis on the struggle, on the suffering as a marketing tactic, not as a connection point. And I know I've always struggled with finding that line myself because I've had mentors that told me like, you might be a little bit too vulnerable, Angie. Like you might share a little bit too much. And I'm like, I mean, I understand on one side of the coin how that might be uncomfortable for some people. But if I feel called to share a story, I'm going to share it and I'm just going to trust that my intuition told me to share that story for a reason.
Angie Colee (34:42):
Um, and by the same token, you know, you see people out there talking about desperate times of living outta their car, which I've done, uh, sleeping on a mattress on the floor of like extreme suffering. And I remember hearing a story about somebody like crying in the shower. That was a big discussion among marketing circles that I knew of. Like, where, where is this line where is too vulnerable? And I don't know if you agree with this or not, but the line that has always helped me is like, share from scars, not open wounds. Like if you are in the midst of the suffering, now is probably not the best time to talk about it. 'cause the emotions and, and the chemical dump inside your body is still largely in control of your experience and coloring your perception. But you know that that was a long rambly way to ask a question that I'm not even sure what question I'm asking , but what do you think
Justin Blackman (35:30):
? Well, no. So as far as weaponized, uh, vulnerability. Yeah. I, I think Brene Brown amazing. Absolutely fantastic. She's the one who first started talking about vulnerability, dare to lead, things like that and, and the challenges of it. And she did it from a great place. And, you know, it went viral. She wrote tons of books, Ted talks, all this stuff. Absolutely fantastic. Lessons, vulnerability is a great thing from certain elements. And again, that was from a leadership perspective. I think what people started to do is they're like, oh, I, I'm gonna be more vulnerable too. And um, oh no, I stepped in dog poop. Everybody get a GoFundMe for new shoes for me. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Things like that. It was like, it got too far. The crying on LinkedIn, um Mm-Hmm. . It was just, it was too far Yeah. To the point where it was, it was a little bit manufactured. Mm. And a little gross. Yeah. Um, I'm all for, for vulnerability when there's a lesson to be shared. Mm-Hmm. . But when it's, it sometimes it was a pity party. Yeah. And, uh, it was designed for like, look at me,
Angie Colee (36:34):
I'm being vulnerable too.
Justin Blackman (36:35):
. Yeah. Like my post, follow me. Mm-Hmm. don't get to like and subscribe. Um, you know, it's, it, it just got a little, became a best practice. Mm-Hmm. in for social media strategy and it, it got too far. Mm-Hmm. . Uh, and I'm glad that we're dialing it back. Um, but it's absolutely, and it's good that people are being more vulnerable and more open, but you also do need to get the job done. Yeah. Um, and you know, I've, this is gonna be one of these things I might ask you to take off later, but like, I was thinking about hiring someone for an assistant at one point, and then they sort of ghosted for a little bit and they came back and said, sorry, I've just been dealing with some, some anxiety and depression and all that. Would you still like to work together?
Justin Blackman (37:23):
And the fact is that I didn't wanna work with them because they ghosted me during the Mm-Hmm. process. And I understand that they had something that they needed to go take care of, but I need someone who's gonna be there and be reliable and show up. Yes. And as much as I sympathize with them and had compassion for them, I didn't wanna hire them. Mm-Hmm. . So again, like you have to understand where your business is and where your personal stuff is and what the overlap is and how much you wanna share and how much becomes your brand. Um, Mm-Hmm. being the, uh, the, you know, the personal assistant with depression isn't necessarily the best branding. It's not the angle that I would recommend . Well, I,
Angie Colee (38:03):
I'm glad that you brought that up too because like, talk about the complexity and the layers of both being a human and deciding where that vulnerability line is and what to keep for yourself as you discussed. Because I had a similar, I think I've told this story on the show before too, but one of the really awesome experiences to come out of the breakup that started my, my on the road journey was the fact that I talked to our mutual friend Chris Rakowski. He had just hired me as the copy chief for his agency. It was about a month into working with him when the breakup happened. And it threw me for a loop. And the, the key difference here, I think that made, that really made all the difference in the world and why I chose to share this with him was that we had worked together for years.
Angie Colee (38:46):
First he worked for me on Jeff's team. We had been in a mastermind together. We had talked about things other than business, been to events. And then I worked for him for a month when all of this happened. So we had that context of like a deeper relationship than just the work. And so when the breakup happened, I went to him and I said, look, I know that this is not ideal timing. This sucks. It's not what I want to happen, but I've also gotta be honest that I'm just, the headspace is not there and I'm doing the best that I can every day, but I can't make any promises right now. So I'll just, I'll keep you posted on what's going on and I'll spare you the messy details. Like, I'm not here to cry on your shoulder, but I don't think I can show up at a hundred percent.
Angie Colee (39:25):
Here's what I can do. Here's what I'm gonna try to do to, to, to be present for you. I'm like, you know, just hearing myself articulate that out loud can hear the difference in my approach. Like yeah. I was acknowledging where I was at while talking about what I was going to do to mitigate that. Uh, yeah. And keeping the lines of communication open instead of just disappearing. And what he did, you know, talk about vulnerability, again, changed my whole perspective and, and really set me off down this path of talking leadership and talking communication. Because he said thank you. I was like, what? I totally expected, kind of like a ew feelings or speak. Why are you sharing this with me? I don't need to know your business. Gross. Yeah. Um, and he goes, no, I mean, I'm, I'm not Thank you for everything that you're going through and that totally sucks.
Angie Colee (40:15):
My heart goes out to you. But you showed me that I kind of set my business up on quicksand. Like, what if you got hit by a bus instead of having this relationship breakup, like the result, the net result would've been the same. Yeah. That I have built a business that depends on you being there without any kind of backup plan. So you basically just showed me that I have a gap that needs to be addressed. Like I need a plan. And that, I mean, I'm trying to like articulate all of my thoughts as I'm thinking on the fly here, but I think that was like vulnerability done. Well, it took into context the relationship that we had, what I really needed to be able to deliver what versus what I was capable of delivering, um, what needed to be communicated to him. Yeah. As this person that I had a working relationship and an interpersonal relationship with.
Angie Colee (41:07):
And, you know, if I could dare to break down from the outside and admittedly very little detail, the story that you shared, you had very minimal working relationship just basically in con in contact to talk about them working for you as an assistant. And I assume not much of a personal relationship before that context. Not two, three emails. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, so there's an expectation and, and there's a context and there's a need from your end that hasn't been addressed when they decided to disappear. Yeah. And it might not have been a conscious decision. Right. Depression, chemicals that are happening inside your brain. We all understand that as entrepreneurs. Like sometimes the brain just don't wanna brain. They're kind of dumb like that. Yeah. And you just can't, for whatever reason. And also we have to develop the, the, the muscle and the resilience to be able to reach out and tell people where we're at so that we don't leave them hanging.
Justin Blackman (42:04):
Right.
Angie Colee (42:05):
That was a long ramble way of saying all of those things. But I'm glad that you brought that story up. I hope that you keep it in.
Justin Blackman (42:10):
Yeah. No, I'm, I'm Gabe. It's, you know, I don't, I don't like telling, I think that's actually the first time I've ever told that story. Mm-Hmm. Definitely on, on podcast. Um, but I'm okay keeping it. It, I don't like the way that it portrays me, but again, I wanna be sensitive, but also like I a brand, I have stuff, I have stuff to get done as a business. Mm-Hmm. , I have stuff that needs to get done. And if I hire an assistant that's not there, I don't really have an assistant. Yeah. So , um, you know, there's still expectations and needs to be met and, you know, that that's all important stuff.
Angie Colee (42:40):
Yeah. And I think like, this is why I love talking about this from all kinds of angles. And I know when I first started the show that I had some folks that were kind of at the beginning end of the spectrum that were resistant to coming on the show 'cause they felt like they hadn't achieved enough success. But I like talking about this from beginner level, from intermediate level, from super advanced level because we get a more holistic experience of what's going on. And I know a lot of these intricacies, these complexities about dealing with other humans in business didn't become clear to me until I had an opportunity to be on the other side, so to speak. Like of course from the worker standpoint, I am all good and huffy when I'm experiencing a personal crisis. And my boss is kinda like, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Angie Colee (43:31):
I really need you here. I can't afford to have you take time off Right now we're in a bit of a crunch. And I'm just like, well, don't you care about me? Don't you like me as a human being? Of course. All of those things can be true and the business still has needs. Now from the business owner side of things, that means that we kind of have to plan for those contingencies like Chris did, that we have to think about what's good enough versus what's perfect when one of our teammates doesn't perform up to what we need to have happening. Right. Happen. It's not going, one particular action is not going to wreck anything unless it's kind of like misleading or you know, kind of shady, nasty that that can bring things down. But like somebody missing a deadline on one particular piece of copy isn't necessarily going to bring everything to a screeching halt.
Angie Colee (44:21):
Might delay things by a couple of days, might mean that we have to shuffle some things around later on to, to accommodate the gap. But like, those actions aren't going to impact things as much as consistency, communication, deepening that relationship and understanding that there's gonna be some give and take. I'm not entirely right a hundred percent of the time as the business owner, neither is the worker that is coming to do a job. And, and to be clear like we have a working relationship, we're not best friends. Right. So that's the part where I think that keeps some of it for yourself comes in like the ability to understand who is there to support you and who has a different relationship with you. And, and I'm, I'm articulating all of this on the fly, so I may not say it right, but like, I wouldn't go and I didn't go to Chris in snot bubble tears talking about everything that happened and oh my God, I got no, I saved that for my best friend. We talked about that on the phone, right. Different people for different situations and the boss and the coworkers aren't necessarily the people that need to hear the snot bubble tears when the relationship there is. We help each other with these tasks. Right.
Justin Blackman (45:33):
Right. Yes. And, and that goes back to the, to the brand and the voice of what you carry over into business versus what you leave at home. Mm-Hmm. not everything from home needs to come into the business. Your readers, your, uh, your subscribers, your followers, they don't need to know all of this stuff. Like, it, it's not the rule that they have to, if it's part of your brand, sure, go ahead. But it doesn't have to be part of your brand. And I think what's, I think a lot of the people that I've been working with lately are kind of feeling a little exhausted from having Mm-Hmm. to share all of that. And sometimes there's a bit of relief when I say like, you can, you can keep that for yourself. Yes. It
Angie Colee (46:10):
Doesn't have
Justin Blackman (46:10):
To be, you can, a personal brand is is a brand. It's not, it's not a person as a brand. It's a personal brand, it's a business, it's a separate thing. Let's find a way to separate you from that so we can scale.
Angie Colee (46:21):
Yes.
Justin Blackman (46:22):
That's usually what
Angie Colee (46:23):
I'm at. You get to, you get to decide who you want to be and who you want to present to the world. I know I've spoken about this a little bit before, but there's not a whole lot of people that actually know that I'm a digital nomad because I don't fit the typical digital. I'm not out there, you know, in a sundress in a floppy hat standing on the edge of the cliff, like dramatically staring off into space. In fact, like most of the pictures are of food or of my cat doing weird cat things or, you know, I, I did llama yoga, I went in a hot air balloon and I really didn't give much context beyond this is the experience that I'm having right now. And that's because that was what I was doing in the wake of that breakup, wanted to travel, wanted to find a new place.
Angie Colee (47:02):
And I actually had a very visceral response when people asked me to start talking about my travels. They did it a lot, especially in the first year. We're living vicariously through you. You gotta share more, you gotta write about your travels. And something in my head just equated that with, they want me to talk about my dirty laundry and my drama and I don't want to, and I'm resisting with all my might. And that just led me to writing a big ranty piece about I don't wanna be your breakup guru, which actually got a whole lot of response. Amazing. I remember
Justin Blackman (47:31):
It. Um,
Angie Colee (47:32):
It was super long and I remember that people were reading all the way to the end because toward the end I said something about it and sometimes I ordered two desserts because you. That's why. Yeah. And people wrote in like, gonna order two desserts because you.
Justin Blackman (47:46):
That, that's the reason that Mm-Hmm. . It works. And,
Angie Colee (47:50):
And so like I've, you know, just using myself an example of everything that we've talked about here, I share that story of the breakup and of the travels when it makes sense to share it. That's not the thing that I want people to take away from working with me any more than I want them to take away red hair and tattoos and says the word. Like, I'm not a one dimensional human being. And so I'm not gonna lean on vulnerability. I'm not gonna lean on funny. I'm not gonna be any one thing. And you don't have to be either.
Justin Blackman (48:20):
There you go.
Angie Colee (48:21):
be a person, but you don't feel like being a person in business means that you have to share everything. Some of it you get to keep for yourself as you're a person.
Justin Blackman (48:34):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (48:35):
So this has been a fascinating meandering conversation. Guadalupe, Justin Bluston, what is that? What you called yourself before? Tell us a little bit more about where we can learn about your business.
Justin Blackman (48:46):
Well, if you are a business owner that's looking to differentiate your voice, to scale it or to hire copywriters, you can follow me at, uh, pretty fly copy.com where I create brand voice guides and help, uh, businesses create a new brand voice. Uh, if you're a copywriter looking to learn how to do this, to do what I do, to mirror and scale a client's voice, you can go to brand voice academy.com where, uh, I teach how to do that.
Angie Colee (49:11):
Yeah. And I can definitely vouch for this system because it is what allowed me to take over writing for the voice of a guru who is admittedly almost polar opposite from who I am as a person, and yet I could still understand how he thought and speak like him. So it can be done, folks. You can learn to write like somebody else. Um, and I love it. I think Justin is the perfect person to teach you how to do this or how to hire somebody that can write like you. So thank you so much. Yes. You should hire him. Yes, you should hire him. Rah rah rah. That's my endorsement. That's my endorsement for sure. Thank you so much for being on the show, for sharing your entire experience and your journey. I am looking forward to the next evolution. Part three is gonna be a doozy man.
Justin Blackman (49:52):
Mm. I have no idea what the name's gonna be at that point, but we'll go for it.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you can do it, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Permission to Kick ass podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening, and let's go Kick ass some.