How many of us have had ideas, goals, visions that left those around us scratching their heads? Enda gets it. As she wisely put it, "They didn't get the vision—I did." No amount of explaining can change that. If fear of others' reactions is holding you back, Enda and I have some gold nuggets just for you. Listen now!
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Enda’s Bio:
Before pivoting into Marketing Strategy and Direct Response Copywriting, Enda Ndungu was a Corporate Finance analyst.
While earning her MBA, she was intrigued by how numbers could tell stories and persuade investors to buy into a founder’s vision.
This was her inspiration for helping Coaches and Consultants with their marketing.
Enda believes in the power of Ethical Marketing. She has served many clients in different industries while keeping them aligned to their values.
Enda now uses her sharp analytical skills to find the most effective methods for promoting the brands she's passionate about.
Her eloquent and compelling story-telling talents elevate her clients and get them the results they crave. She also helps her clients attract their ideal audience and add profits to their bottom line.
In her free time, Enda is a bibliophile and an avid reader who buys more books than she can read. Enda is a ‘foodie’ and can’t resist the smell of freshly baked chocolate fudge cupcakes or bacon. She also enjoys spending time in nature and coming up with out-of-the-box solutions for her clients.
Resources and links mentioned:
Come kick ass
Let's collab:
Let's connect:
If you dig the show and want to help bring more episodes to the world, consider buying a coffee for the production team!
How many of us have had ideas, goals, visions that left those around us scratching their heads? Enda gets it. As she wisely put it, "They didn't get the vision—I did." No amount of explaining can change that. If fear of others' reactions is holding you back, Enda and I have some gold nuggets just for you. Listen now!
Can’t-Miss Moments From This Episode:
This one is jam-packed full of advice. Don’t miss out - listen now!
Enda’s Bio:
Before pivoting into Marketing Strategy and Direct Response Copywriting, Enda Ndungu was a Corporate Finance analyst.
While earning her MBA, she was intrigued by how numbers could tell stories and persuade investors to buy into a founder’s vision.
This was her inspiration for helping Coaches and Consultants with their marketing.
Enda believes in the power of Ethical Marketing. She has served many clients in different industries while keeping them aligned to their values.
Enda now uses her sharp analytical skills to find the most effective methods for promoting the brands she's passionate about.
Her eloquent and compelling story-telling talents elevate her clients and get them the results they crave. She also helps her clients attract their ideal audience and add profits to their bottom line.
In her free time, Enda is a bibliophile and an avid reader who buys more books than she can read. Enda is a ‘foodie’ and can’t resist the smell of freshly baked chocolate fudge cupcakes or bacon. She also enjoys spending time in nature and coming up with out-of-the-box solutions for her clients.
Resources and links mentioned:
Come kick ass
Let's collab:
Let's connect:
If you dig the show and want to help bring more episodes to the world, consider buying a coffee for the production team!
Enda Ndungu (00:00):
Angie Colee (00:03):
Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass. The show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs, helming nine figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and let's get to it. Hey, and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass Gas with me. Today is my good friend, Enda Ndungu. Say Hi.
Enda Ndungu (00:38):
Hi, Angie. Well, that was a very good trial of my name. I mean, , and I understand because, you know, phonetically, someone once asked, oh, can you spell it phonetically? And I'm like, I don't know how. But for those who are curious about that, that is . Yeah. You don't, you don't have that. Yeah. Wait, well,
Angie Colee (00:55):
Yeah, we, for, for everybody to give you some context, we were practicing that ahead of time because to me, names are super important. Pronunciation, spelling are super important. That's part of our identity. I think I've ranted about that once or twice on the podcast before. But just know if you are writing to clients, to people, just take a couple extra seconds, practice a name, even if you get it wrong, the intent matters, the caring matters
Enda Ndungu (01:21):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Angie Colee (01:23):
So welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about your business and what you do.
Enda Ndungu (01:27):
Oh, great. So I am a marketer and a copywriter, and I enjoy helping brands amplify their voices, you know, getting people to know about them. And a big part of that for me is I create a legacy through the strategies that I help businesses with, right? Because I could be like, oh, yeah, you know, I wanna help you make more money, but then so what? Right? So I kind of come from the angle of I want to help you make a legacy, because legacies are important.
Angie Colee (01:59):
Mm-Hmm, . I like that. I think it goes so much more deep than just make a boatload of sails. Right. Right. And this is gonna sound a little bit dismissive, but anybody can make a boatload of sails. That doesn't mean that you're gonna make people happy. That doesn't make, yes, that doesn't mean that you're gonna make an impact on the world. And frankly, I think a focus on sales to the detriment of the entire overall experience Yes. Is just incredibly shortsighted. Right. It, it shows that you only care about the dollars and not the people. And frankly, we're gonna get like high level philosophical first thing in the morning for me. Well, it's evening for you, but it's morning for me. Uh, right. You can't take it with you.
Enda Ndungu (02:37):
Exactly.
Angie Colee (02:38):
Exactly. You can't take it with you at the end of your life. Yes. You can't, I mean, I guess you could like build a pyramid and be buried with all of your wealth, but like, at the end of, at the end of my life at least, I want to know that the work I did mattered. That the friendships that I had were important, that I made some sort of impact on the world. And not everybody thinks like I do, but, but that's okay. I mean, if you're listening to the show and you don't care about impact, what are you even doing here?
Enda Ndungu (03:01):
. Right? .
Angie Colee (03:04):
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's about here. Permission to Kick Ass us. Yeah. Not permission to make money. Um, yeah. Anyway, sorry, side tangent. So how did you get into this line of work? Like, what led you here? Oh,
Enda Ndungu (03:14):
Wow. That's, wow. Okay. So I'll start at the beginning. , I
Angie Colee (03:19):
Was Yes. A long time ago. I was born, yeah.
Enda Ndungu (03:22):
. Uh, my background is actually, I'm a financial analyst and I do have an MBA and a chatted financial analyst in the works. Right. Like all of that. Wow. And yeah, so my undergrad was also was in finance. And so I figured, you know, you know, I love investments, you know, I enjoyed the stories that the numbers told, and I was like, oh, this is cool. Um, about eight years or so in, I was like, well, I don't know. You know, I, you know, there are parts of my job like, really drive me nuts. Like, I'm like, I don't wanna do this. You know, like, this is killing me. And then the other parts of my job that are like interesting and I love and everything, right. But, you know, I was kind of brought up with a mentality that success is, you know, going to school, get your degree, get a job, right?
Enda Ndungu (04:14):
Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, despite the whole, you know, my soul kind of wondering what's up? You know, like this doesn't feel entirely right. The question is, yeah, but what am I supposed to do? You know? Mm-Hmm. , this is what I went to school for. Like, I've made investments in this, like, you know, time, energy, all these things. Um, and so I kind of just kept on, you know, trying to go on holding on and, you know, trying to make it work. Until then, you know, my health started failing, right? So suddenly I have, you know, I'm going to the doctors, my doctor's like, well, you know, we did a workup and there's nothing wrong with you, like physically. So at, at this point, I'm like, you know, and I remember vividly what I used to get was really bad migraines, right? I'd have very bad migraines. And I was like, well, you know, I'm sleeping enough. I'm trying to eat healthy, blah, blah, blah, the works. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, you have doctors telling you different doctors, uh, someone tells you, oh, um, well, you know, you are female, so migraines are normal. And I'm like, no, they're not like, what is wrong with you? No, they're not right.
Angie Colee (05:21):
That's, you squared, minimize all my problems to you're a woman without investigating further. Anyway, continue.
Enda Ndungu (05:29):
Right? And, and I'm thinking, no, they're not. So anyway, I started doing my own research and kind of trying to listen to podcasts and, and I realized that, you know, your body tells you stuff, right? Mm-Hmm. like where your pain and all these things, you know, your body will communicate to you and tell you, Hey, this is too much for me. It's not working, blah, blah, blah. And at some point I had, I literally had to force, um, CT scans and tell the doctor, no, you need to put in CT scans because I need to know for a fact that there isn't a physical reason why I'm getting this really bad migraines. Mm-Hmm. . And so they did, and nothing is found. And I'm like, what? And so the next step is to go to a neurologist. And I'm thinking, I don't know what Mm-Hmm, , this, this, this doesn't make sense.
Enda Ndungu (06:13):
And, uh, lucky enough, you know, I come across this ENT specialist because I'd been told, oh, you have a sinus infection? And I'm like, first of all, I don't feel stuffy, so I don't understand where you're getting that from, but okay, cool. Mm-Hmm, . And she looks at my charts and she's like, well, you don't need to go to a neurologist. The thing you need to do is, I'm gonna give you some meds, but mostly vitamins. Right? And that was vitamin B, which for me was like, wait, what? Mm-Hmm. simple vitamins. Mm-Hmm, . Okay, cool. And so she gave me that, and I started taking them, and within a couple of weeks, my migraines kind of disappeared. So what I do not know at the time was that vitamin B helps with stress. Mm-Hmm. Right? So if you're under acute stress, it helps with that, right?
Enda Ndungu (06:59):
But then at, at the same time, this was just a bandaid, right? Like, I haven't dealt with a real reason that I'm having this Mm-Hmm. , right? And so I think that everything is fine. You know, obviously I start, the thing that helped me a lot during this period was having, and this is, this is mostly the last year of, you know, me being in corporate, because at one point I was doing three people's jobs, um, you know, because yeah. You know, people are like, oh, you're a performer. Like, woo. And you know, Mm-Hmm. . Um,
Angie Colee (07:29):
That's another, like, if you run a company, do not reward your top performers by giving them additional work. , come on. What kind of lame reward system is that? That's how you burn your people out. Right?
Enda Ndungu (07:42):
Don't do it.
Angie Colee (07:42):
Right. Don't do it. So, and I, I love that you actually brought that up because I think this is the first time that we're really talking about this on the show, that the body sends clues, the body sends signals. Yes. Yes. Um, I had migraines in grad school that came on very, very suddenly. And it was a similar thing that, like after it was months of keeping a journal of what I did every day, the timing, what I ate, all of that stuff. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , because same thing, the test came back inconclusive. There's nothing wrong with you, but I persisted. We kept this journal and basically discovered that at the root of my migraines was poor nutrition, right? Mm-Hmm. , grad school student living on ramen noodle and, you know, but dealing, uh, my stress, Mm-Hmm. and for sleep. Mm-Hmm. . And so when I could get better nutrition, get better sleep, and reduce my stress by whatever means possible, the, the headaches points away, right? Yeah. So it's not, it's not, and this isn't a medical show, right? It's not always about, uh, medicine. Mm-Hmm. sometimes. Mm-Hmm. , it's about making a change in your life that facilitates your health. And the body is sending a clue that something is not right here. Yes. Something is not good for you here.
Enda Ndungu (08:54):
Yes. Yes. Um, and I remember at the time, you know, one of the things I was on this, um, 'cause you know how doctors are, it's like, oh, here, it's a pill, it's a pain pill. Right? So yeah.
Angie Colee (09:06):
Some can very much be pill po pill focused , which
Enda Ndungu (09:09):
Sucks. Right? Exactly. So, uh, and the one thing, you know, I'm a very curious person, which kind of lends itself to be a very good thing. Mm-Hmm. , you know, when it comes to marketing, because I'm very curious about the audience, right? And so the first thing I would do was kind of Google and look up the medication. Mm-Hmm. . And I noticed that, you know, some of the best, you know, the medication that would work, the pills that would work were amphetamines. Like, they had some amphetamines in them, so very addictive and all that stuff. And I was like, yeah, do I want to expose my body to this? Like, there has to be a better way because it's fine. Mm-Hmm. , you'll take the pill, you'll feel so much better within a short time, but you've kind of not dealt with the root cause of, you know, whatever.
Enda Ndungu (09:53):
Right. So, anyway, back to the office, I think, you know, things are okay. I'm not, you know, the migraines aren't as often, and, you know, things are improving and that's fine. And I try to put in boundaries, I start pushing back a lot more. Like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not available for that. Blah, blah, blah. And so one day on a random, sunny afternoon, you know, I just had my lunch and out of nowhere, you know, I, I get this headache, right? And I'm thinking, well, this kind of sounds like, you know, my regular, it's probably just a migraine. Okay. Um, maybe I'm just stressed. Okay, let me just, lemme just ride it out, right? Like, I don't even need the meds. Let me just ride it out. Mm-Hmm. . And then it's going nowhere. And I'm thinking, well, I've eaten, you know, I slept kind of okay.
Enda Ndungu (10:46):
Like, I don't understand what's happening. And so at the office, we had this kind of receptionist who kind of had like a few fast aid kind of things. And she has, you know, the pills, painkillers, right? And she gives me one, and I take it and she says, oh, don't leave. You know, first sit down. You know, she was also like the clinician, right? Mm-Hmm. . So first step down, let's, let's kind of see, you know, how you're reacting to this. And I'm thinking at the time, this is unnecessary. I can go back to my desk, , it's not a big deal, whatever. Um, in a few minutes, you know, I kind of throw up, you know, I'm nauseous and I throw up. And she is like, and I see her reaction to that because in my head I'm thinking, you know, maybe I should just go home.
Enda Ndungu (11:33):
Maybe I should just take the rest of the day off. Let me just go home. And she's like, actually no. Um, we, I need to call the ambulance. And I'm like, I have never been in an ambulance my entire life. I have never had to go to the ER my entire life. You know? Mm-Hmm. . And I'm thinking, what do you mean ? It's not that same. Like, I don't, what do you mean? So before I know it, I can't remember the passwords to like my computer and stuff. Like, you know, I feel like I'm having a stroke. Oh. And I'm like, is this how it feels to have a stroke? Like, I know it's not a stroke, but it feels like that because I can't, like even think I can't talk, you know, like Mm-Hmm. , everything's just jumbled up. And, you know, all of a sudden by now it's kind of late afternoon and I'm in an ambulance kind of dodging traffic.
Enda Ndungu (12:29):
I couldn't even call, I couldn't call anyone, right? Because I, I had my phone and I still wasn't able to, you know, find like, even just figure out the number, like phone numbers, like, you know. And so I, yeah. So I finally get at the er, you know, I get a bed, blah, blah, blah. And someone next to my Q I'm, I'm in pain. You know, the pain is vicious. You know, the painkillers they're giving me aren't working. And I'm thinking, I don't, this doesn't make sense. And as I'm sitting there trying to hope that the meds kind of Kick Ass in and whatever someone in the next cubicle loses their life. And that for me is a come to Jesus moment. You know, because it's like, well, I was trying to hold onto this job because, you know, um, oh, I need to pay rent, you know, the usual stuff, right?
Enda Ndungu (13:25):
, yeah. I've invested too much, you know? Mm-Hmm. I can't get out. Like, what will I do? Um, and now I'm here, you know, in a hospital and someone is losing their life. And if I'm not careful, that could potentially be me, because, you know, right now my body is like, I've had enough, you know, I, we can't continue doing this. Right? Mm-Hmm. . And that was a come to Jesus moment, so to speak. . Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, after that it was like, well, I need to make a change. I need to make a change. It is scary. It probably will not make sense to other people. Right. You know? Mm-Hmm. To your loved ones or whatever. It will not make sense. But at this point, you need to figure out what not only helps other folks, but also works for you, right? Yes. How can you use your skills and talent without necessarily driving yourself to the grave? And I think that's, you know, that's a lesson even for most entrepreneurs, right? Mm-Hmm. . Because it's so easy to kind of get caught up in the vision and kind of forget that, hey, you know, your vision is only as good as what I'd call the vessel. You know, if you are gone, then the vision doesn't get done. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Angie Colee (14:45):
Exactly. I mean it, to boil it down, you basically have to take care of yourself because you are the person Yeah. That is holding the vision for your business. Yeah. And I actually, like, I've been writing down notes this entire time. 'cause I, I think that this is, is fascinating and thank goodness you are still here, right? That, that you listened to that and that that receptionist was there and looking out for you that day. I'm, I'm so glad all of that happened and that we, we got to know each other as a result. Um, it's, it's interesting to me how often, and, and, you know, you're in Kenya, I'm here in the United States, and we still get that same message of here are the steps, these are the things that you need to do in order to get to success, in order to get to happiness.
Angie Colee (15:27):
And I don't know if it's capitalism, I don't know if it's, I think it's well intentioned, right? That we want to help other people get to happiness. And maybe a couple of people along the way followed this particular process and started prescribing it to other people. But like, I'm glad we're in an era now where more people have a voice and we can start to say, this didn't work for me. I mean, I, I'm glad that following all of those steps led to happiness and fulfillment for you. But that is, that is not for me. And that we're starting to liberate ourselves from that narrative, from that belief. Do I think it works for some people? Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, do I think that, I don't like to use the word traditional 'cause that implies that there's like a system that works for the majority of people.
Angie Colee (16:19):
. I just, I think we're starting to understand that there's a lot of different ways to find success. To find fulfillment. To find happiness. Yeah. And I, for one, am super glad that this old adage of hustling and grinding, living in your car, in the parking lot to build the dream, is slowly dying. I wish it would die a little bit faster, but, you know, I'm, I'm pro hustle, don't get me wrong. When starting a business, there is absolutely a time to burn the candle at both ends. To work really hard to get this thing off the ground. Sometimes you're the only one that can carry that and to do that work. But it can't be 24 7 because otherwise you have a major health issue like this and you can't continue. I am pro hustle. I am anti grind. The grind part is the thing that bothers me, right?
Enda Ndungu (17:06):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (17:06):
Yeah. There's time to hustle, there's a time to rest. That's how we keep this moving forward. So that's, that's awesome. I'm glad that you were able to get the help that you needed, that you were able to recover, obviously. 'cause we're having this conversation. Right. Right. So tell me a little bit about the pivot, because I know that you mentioned finance and corporation in the beginning you talked about copywriting. Yeah. What was the connection there?
Enda Ndungu (17:27):
Yeah, . Yeah. So the private, the private was the number one thing I was very clear about was I needed something that, you know, I needed to be in charge of my own schedule, right? Mm-Hmm. . And I realized that my calling was not going to be found in a place where, you know, I was just another call, give a machine, right? Mm-Hmm. . Like, that's, that's not really how you'd make a difference, right? So I, you know, I was like, okay, so what's the one thing? And for me, communication has always kind of been so effortless that sometimes I kind of minimize it. Mm-Hmm. , it's like, yeah, but, you know, I don't, what's the big deal? Or, you know, how you write or communicate, you know, it's very easy. And other people kind of get what you're saying very quickly and you don't think that, you know, hey, you know, this is something, this is, this is a talent.
Enda Ndungu (18:14):
This is something I'm good at. Mm-Hmm. . And it does have value. Right? Um, so I explored, you know, writing and everything. Um, started out, you know, helping companies kind of set up their blog posts and all that kind of thing. And then I discovered direct response marketing. And for me, I lit up because, um, so when I was in corporate, there's this thing called commercial finance. And commercial finance was kind of the middle ground between marketing and finance. So basically talking about, you know, all the cool things, ROI, you know, how much ad spend did you use? You know, that type of thing. Are we getting the returns? Are there specific channels that are more effective than others? You know, that kind of thing. So it was basically the numbers. And, you know, that was exciting for me. I, I remember thinking, Ooh, I'm intrigued .
Enda Ndungu (19:04):
Mm-Hmm. . Like, that's, that's interesting. Yeah. And so direct response, direct response kind of leads, you know, the, something similar to that. And I was like, oh, I could actually, you know, I could actually do this. But the bigger draw for me, the, the bigger thing that kind of attracted me to it is because I, information is everything. Mm-Hmm. . And so if I can support businesses that have valid services and products right? And can kind of get that message out to the people that really need them, then you could literally save a life. You could literally, you know, pilot someone's entire life in a different direction had they not say, encountered you. So for example, in the case of a coach, right? Mm-Hmm. , you could meet, you could meet a coach. That kind of changes how you see things, your perspective, the direction you take. And for me, that was the, that was the bigger push. It was like, well, if I can get this amazing businesses Mm-hmm. , if I can get them to reach the people that need them, then I can literally change their life. And so yeah. The rest is history.
Angie Colee (20:13):
You said so much good stuff there. I was like, I was furiously writing one was undervaluing the skill Yeah. The talent that came to you naturally. And I feel like especially a lot of us that gravitate toward creative businesses Mm-Hmm. have that particular, I don't wanna call it a shortcoming, but that belief system kind of ingrained in us. Right. Especially since a lot of, you know, we had little f finger painting and drawing in primary school Yeah. And writing classes in secondary school. And so to an extent, we've all had some practice with that as human beings who have had an education. Yeah. And also just because it comes easily to you doesn't necessarily mean it comes easy to everyone. I've told this story before, but I remember, um, and, and this was almost a decade into my writing career when this happened. Mm-Hmm.
Angie Colee (21:04):
, I was working with a high powered marketing team and a person on another team needed an email sent out to the group of people that they were responsible for the, the clients that they were responsible for. Mm-Hmm. . And unbeknownst to me, when she brought the email to me, she had been working on it for two weeks because she was under the impression that she was helping me out. Because again, from this is, this is the ability to put yourself in somebody else's perspective. Right. That helps me understand this. Right. From her perspective, writing is really hard, and it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to nail the messaging. So she was trying to save me the effort by spending two weeks agonizing over this email. Right. So what happened is, we get on this call, she shows, she pulls up the email, um, or she sends me the link to the email, I do a screen share, and we're editing in Google Docs.
Angie Colee (21:57):
And I just ask her a series of rapid fire questions. When does this need to go out? Who is this going to? What do we want them to do? Et cetera, et cetera. And I looked at her email, I read it through, and I was like, okay, we need to cut this line. We need to move this line here, and we need to like delete that word. And I did all of that in minutes, probably took me five, maybe 10 minutes to, to help her with that. And I made the edits, she reads it through and she goes, what kind of witchcraft did you just do? I don't, I don't understand. It took me two weeks on this. It took you five minutes to figure that out. And I don't think you even realize how awesome that was. Just to, to watch. Like, I don't have that skill with words.
Angie Colee (22:42):
And I am just kind of in awe. And I use the word skill and talent with deliberation because there are a lot of talented people out there that will never develop the skills Yes. To do something with that talent. Right? Yes. They will just kind of, it's not the right word, but they'll just use what they've given and never aspire to more. Mm-Hmm. . Right. The people that make a living from whatever talent they were naturally born with have taken time to develop the talent, to develop the discipline, to develop the ancillary skills that will support growing that talent into something else. Um, it was, I think I was a guest on somebody else's show recently, and he talked about, he used a lot of sports analogies, but like Kobe didn't become Kobe because he woke up one day and like threw a basket and it landed.
Angie Colee (23:34):
And he was like, cool, I'm gonna join the NBA. Cool. Yeah. . Absolutely. He threw a basket, realized he was good, you know, at some point was having fun with this. And then decided to practice and shoot hundreds and hundreds of baskets, many of which I'm sure he missed, but he learned a lot from every miss and how to get better and how to get closer and more consistent. And that's what we mean when we talk about talent versus skill. Um, and then it was, it was funny 'cause we talk about copyright. I, I have seen this a lot, especially with new business owners where they think it, it sells itself. Right. It's
Enda Ndungu (24:12):
The bane of
Angie Colee (24:12):
The copywriter's existence itself.
Enda Ndungu (24:14):
Build it itself. .
Angie Colee (24:16):
Yeah. If you build it, they'll come. Yeah. I am sorry I'm about to break some serious hearts, but I really do hope that we can set this idea on fire. This isn't field of dreams. If you build it, they will not come . Uh, do you think that just because Lamborghini built a Lamborghini that people just show, like call went out into the universe. Something in my soul went, there's a new car, I need to go find it. No.
Enda Ndungu (24:42):
Alright. You
Angie Colee (24:43):
Have to tell people about what you've built Yeah. And why it's awesome. And you have to constantly be willing to do this, not just once it's ongoing. This is part of what you have to do in business, uh, especially now with as much noise in competition is as there is. And if that's something you're uncomfortable doing, then great. You hire a copywriter, you hire a marketer like Inda, like I used to, to do, to help people get the word out there. And sometimes that can even benefit you because people can talk about you better than you can talk about yourself. Sometimes they see the things that you can't see because that's my friend Chris Zarkowski is fond of saying, you can't see the label when you're stuck inside the bottle.
Enda Ndungu (25:25):
A hundred percent. So yeah. I love that. And, and, and, and I'll just let you know, business owners know, even as marketers, like, you know, if you tell me, oh, right. And about me page about myself, I'll struggle Mm-Hmm. because it's like, what the heck am I supposed to say? But someone else does it and it's like, Ooh, I sound so cool. Right? Yeah. And I still, you know, I have the skills. So it, it, you know, what you said is,
Angie Colee (25:49):
This is why I get so frustrated with people who make like asinine observations based on their own personal opinion and nothing else. So like, well, how, how can you call yourself a copywriter when your website looks like hot garbage ? Because, because like a lot of human beings on planet earth, yes. I suck at writing about myself. And that's not, that's not a reality that I wanna perpetuate. So I'll, I'll change, I suck at writing about myself too. I have historically struggled with writing about myself. Right. I wanna change that narrative for myself. But it's hard, especially, especially growing up in the southern United States as a woman, when I was always given conflicting messages about you're too much, you're not enough, you're, you're unprofessional. Like, I can't relate. I don't know what it is that people find special about me. So I need that perspective.
Angie Colee (26:39):
And I find myself, like I mentioned synchronicity on this show a lot, but the thing that seems to be coming up lately, like this week, is what I call a loving mirror. And I know you and I have talked about this, this privately Yeah. And maybe you can share your experience with it too. But I, I recently had somebody, I went through a course to learn how to do a, something called a pre-launch. Right. And I had somebody who was well-meaning go, weren't you like the queen of launches? You ran Jeff Walker's team for four years, why would you go to somebody for training? And I said, it's not that she's teaching me something that I don't know. Mm-Hmm. .
Enda Ndungu (27:19):
Mm-Hmm.
Angie Colee (27:19):
. She gave me some insights and some new ways to think about things that I knew and she was an unbiased, un warped mirror that could reflect the truth back at me. Yeah. That's what I was really interested in, surrounding myself with someone that can reflect the truth.
Enda Ndungu (27:36):
Right.
Angie Colee (27:37):
Rather than the warped distortions that I see. So like, I mean, all of this seems like unrelated ranting, but I promise for those of you listening that, that there's a point, and that is when you're providing a service to somebody, you get to bring that outside perspective of, of why they're awesome, of what is really cool stuff that they may not see because they're too close to it. Um, and I think that that brings a whole lot of joy to me in the work. At least
Enda Ndungu (28:05):
It does. It does. Um, you know, one of the things that, you know, I've had to kind of push back. So one of the challenges that I've experienced, right? So I'm not in the US obviously Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, people will kind of look at me and kind of make judgements and they're like, well, you know, you're not in my market. I mean, how can you help me? Or do you even speak English? Do you have internet? Yeah. But no, I kind of have fun with it. Um, so it's, it's, it's, it's one of the things that, you know, people just don't get. They're like, yeah, but how, how can you help me if you are not in the same country? And I say, well, that's actually an advantage. Right? Okay. Mm-Hmm. . So first of all, as human beings, we kind of crave more or less the same things. Yes. Right? Like we're, we're not different. We might be different on the outside, but we all bleed red. Right? Like, yes. You know, unless of course you're from space alien or something. Right. . But we all bleed red. And so, um,
Angie Colee (28:58):
And we all have the same basic needs food.
Enda Ndungu (29:01):
Exactly.
Angie Colee (29:01):
Exactly. Shelter support systems, like, yes.
Enda Ndungu (29:05):
Yeah. So, so because of this, it means that your audience has, you know, this particular desire. And, and also you have the added advantage of me not being, you know, in the cocoon. You know, just like you said, you know, it's easier to read the label when you're kind of outside the bottle, right? Mm-Hmm. . And, and that's an advantage. It's not a disadvantage. Right? So it's, it's one of the things that, you know, I've had to convince people and tell them, well, actually this is a good thing. Mm-Hmm. , this is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And I kind of bring a fresh perspective, like, oh, have you thought about this angle? Mm-Hmm. . Because may maybe people, people don't say it out loud, but it's something you need to think about because then it helps you stand out, you know, from your competition. Right. So, absolutely. It's interesting. Yeah.
Angie Colee (29:53):
I thought, I, I have worked with a lot of creative service providers and freelancers who would get stuck on that line of thinking of like, okay, a whole bunch of people have brought this up. Clearly this is a problem. And so I like to talk about perceived weaknesses, right? And it's understandable that people are gonna have concerns, especially when it comes to working outside the norm or the familiar Right. But this is where, especially as creatives, I'm like, I think that we have a tremendous advantage because we can take those perceived weaknesses and go, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge your thinking here and I'm going to show you why this is a, actually an advantage, a competitive advantage if you let it be. And I know some folks kind of struggle with that idea. 'cause it feels a little bit, it can feel when done wrong.
Angie Colee (30:42):
And if it's just complete utter and not the truth, it, it can very easily go wrong. But you know, exactly like you said, that there are so many advantages that they might not consider when they are just looking at this one side and don't see the full picture. So we get to show them that, no, this is actually a tremendous advantage. I've had people point that out when I was still freelancing too, of like, well, you, you're not in my market, so how could you know about this? Right? And I'm like, yeah. The, the great news is that I also can talk to people Exactly. I can use the product and discover your, uh, angles for it. That was one of my favorite things to do when I was a corporate copywriter. Uh, they'd asked me to write product descriptions and I'd say, great, when can I see the product ?
Angie Colee (31:25):
And some of them would be like, no, like, here's the description from the manufacturer in China. And I would be like, I would like to play with the thing, because oftentimes, like the manufacturers, the creators writing about it, thinking about what makes it really cool isn't necessarily the thing that's on their mind. They've got a million other things that they're trying to do, manage the production, get the shipping, get the pricing right. Like there's a whole bunch of other stuff for them to, to manage. And the writing of the product description was the last thing on their list. And let me tell you what I often saw in corporate, in retail was frankly hot garbage. I mean, who buys a chair because of the dimensions?
Enda Ndungu (32:13):
Nobody like, right.
Angie Colee (32:16):
The dimensions are ancillary and they, they matter to a point. But if I don't like the material, if I don't like the look, if I don't like the functionality of this thing, dimensions don't matter. But there would be so many people that are like, yeah, this is, uh, you know, durable construction. So I would have to go play with things and they would miss obvious stuff. Like, I remember there was a, a garden cart. This was like a, like a home supply center. And I got a chance to go play with it. And I realized that it was collapsible. Like it was heavy duty, but it was collapsible and it rolled and it folded really super flat, which was nice. And I was like, wow. Nowhere in description provided by the manufacturer. Does it say this?
Enda Ndungu (33:02):
Yeah.
Angie Colee (33:03):
And the outside perspective, to bring it full circle is what allowed us to feature that as something that stood out from all of the other garden carts that they could have bought. Mm-Hmm. . It was not only decorative Mm-Hmm. built to be outside. Think it was made of past aluminum, which is really heavy duty and will be blown away. And it was collapsible. Like I get to find those cool things because I played with it, because I brought in that outside perspective. And if I just took it at face value that like the manufacturer knows best because they built it
Angie Colee (33:33):
Well, then everybody suffers. 'cause the, they built it for the people that would use it. And they obvi somebody along the way thought that that was really cool and worth making the person on the other ends that would really enjoy that and get some utility out of that. Doesn't even know it exists because nobody's communicated it to them. So that's why I love this. But like we all bring such interesting new perspective to a situation that I'm gonna challenge you. If you're listening, if you're looking at somebody and going, there's no way you can understand me. They might, they might understand you a little bit better than you think.
Enda Ndungu (34:06):
Mm-Hmm.
Angie Colee (34:07):
Take a chance. Take a chance. Mm-Hmm.
Enda Ndungu (34:09):
So as entrepreneurs, you know, um, you know, just, you know, I, I'd mentioned that one challenge, right? And as entrepreneurs sometimes, you know, another challenge that, you know, I I came across when, you know, I was kind of pivoting was people not getting it right. Mm-Hmm. like, you know, they're like, well, why do you feel that you need to start a business to help this group of people? Like what is the big deal? Right? Like, and, and I've actually had this question asked, you are wasting your education. You have a freaking m mba. A like, what? How can you, well, because technically
Angie Colee (34:44):
It's, it's a waste to start a business when you have an MBA, do you guys hear yourselves anyway, sorry, continue ,
Enda Ndungu (34:50):
Right? Because it's not in an office with four walls and you know, blah, blah, blah. And we don't understand what you're talking about. But anyway, um, and so, so one of the things, one of the challenges was, you know, people just not getting it. A whole lot of, you know, zero support and people actually kind of trashing your vision and, you know, all that stuff, right? And, and that happens, and I'm sure many entrepreneurs listening will be like, well, you know, that sounds familiar. And sometimes, you know, that does inject out, you know, because you're thinking, well, maybe I shouldn't have gone down this road, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done this. Oh, my family's on my back. My wife doesn't agree, my husband thinks I should just, you know, stay in the safety zone and not go out. You know, this is a big risk. You know, what about our family? Like we've got bills to pay, blah, blah, blah, on and on and on. Mm-Hmm. . And the one thing I learned was the vision wasn't given to them. It was given to you.
Angie Colee (35:49):
Mm-Hmm. .
Enda Ndungu (35:49):
Yes. So it doesn't matter how you try and explain it to them, they probably may never get it. Mm-Hmm. because they can't see
Angie Colee (35:58):
It.
Enda Ndungu (35:58):
Yeah. The vision was never customized for them. It was customized for you. Right? Mm-Hmm. , because you're the, you, you're the version of the you that gets to see this vision through. Ooh. That almost rhymed . Oh
Angie Colee (36:12):
No. Oh, we'll, we'll find a way to make it snappy. 'cause that sounds like something that should be on a mug. Uh, yeah. and I, I love that you brought that up. 'cause I, I wrote a whole bit about this in, in my, that's coming up. Permission to Kick Ass, which you helped me. You were an early beta reader for that, which I am so grateful for you. That was fun.
Enda Ndungu (36:31):
That
Angie Colee (36:31):
Was fun. We're doing that. But I, I talked about the role of family support and what to do when you are building a, a business and you've got this vision for yourself that other people can't see. Yeah. And first of all, you have to accept exactly like Ina said, which I thought was brilliant, that they may never be able to see this. They may never see this until you are the one to lead the way and show them what the path looks like. You bring the vision to life. And then they go, oh, I
Enda Ndungu (37:01):
Get it now.
Angie Colee (37:02):
Oh yeah. 'cause they have the context. Yeah. And also you may have people in your life who are projecting their fears onto you because they've tried something and failed and they Mm-Hmm. They just see it as loving and protecting you. Yeah. There may be people who have nefarious intent, man. Mm-Hmm. They don't wanna see you. That whole crab's in the bucket theory Right. About like, one starts to climb out and everybody else pulls them back in. Right.
Enda Ndungu (37:26):
You,
Angie Colee (37:27):
You don't necessarily know what people's intentions are when they are trying to share their doubts and their fears with you in, you know, like whatever their intent is. But you have to be brave enough to lead the way. You have to trust in the vision enough to try things. Yes. And you have to be discerning about who gets to come with you. Right.
Enda Ndungu (37:50):
Oh, that's a big one. That's a big one. You
Angie Colee (37:53):
Know, it doesn't even matter if it, if it's your best friend, if it's your parents, if they can't see the vision and if they can't trust you to execute on it, maybe they don't get to hear about it. Maybe they don't get to participate in the discussions on that. And, and you protect your head space a little bit because you already know what they're going to say. Right. Yeah. And that's how I talk about managing the loving doubters in your life, because we get to hang onto the love that they have for us, right? Mm-Hmm. Without letting them project all of the doubts and the risks Yeah. And the, that stuff on them. Like, Hey, I, I hear you and I understand where you're coming from when, when you say those things, I, I have a different perspective and I'd like to just move on from this conversation.
Enda Ndungu (38:38):
Right. Cool.
Angie Colee (38:39):
Right. We, we don't have to let them in. Uh, if they can't show us the support and they can't show us the love and they can't show us the faith, that doesn't mean that they're a bad person and that I need to cut them out of the light my life. Yep. Yeah. Maybe they don't get to hear this part of my life. I get to hear everything else.
Enda Ndungu (38:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. And, and the other thing, you know, I I realized was with every level of growth, whether you want it, whether you want it, whether it's intentional, at the end of the day, you'll have to leave some people behind. Mm-Hmm. . Like, even if you're like, I love you with everything I have, because, you know, at some point there will be this kind of, you know, how do I say it? There isn't a meeting of minds. Right? And so Mm-Hmm. with the lack of meeting of minds, then, you know, it, it means, you know, conversations become stilted. If I can't tell you about half of my life, then, you know, that becomes very difficult. Right. Like, you can't, you can't really maintain a relationship on that. And so, Mm-Hmm.
Angie Colee (39:41):
I think that's important to, to talk about that. Like some, you're not meant to be on a path with certain people in your life forever. Forever. Yes. Most of the people that you meet in your life will not be in there for, for more than maybe a few years. Right. Uh, and I mean, part of that is just numbers. There's 8 billion people on the planet, right? , there's so many people to meet in life changing directions constantly. There's, there's no way to predict who's gonna stay with you and why. But I remember when I was making the decision to go freelance from my, from my corporate career, I had a very similar thing. Like it caused me a whole bunch of stress. I gained 80 pounds. Like it was ridiculous. Um, I had people screaming at me in my cube, and I knew that I needed to leave.
Angie Colee (40:25):
And thankfully by that point, I had found a community of copywriters that like to go back to the beginning where we talked about people who can show you Yes. That what you want to do is possible. Like, so I had that community. So when I had a partner who was very emotionally abusive and manipulative at the time, I had been trying to figure out how to leave this job and, and build up my savings and start my freelance career for six months. And all this pe all the people in this community were super supportive and telling me, you can do this. And I would come home and my partner would be like, what the hell are you? What is wrong with you? There's no way you can do this. This is stupid. To the point that when I started bringing my boxes home after six months of telling him I was gonna quit. Mm-Hmm. He went, oh, you were serious about that?
Enda Ndungu (41:11):
What? Seriously, dude. Like seriously? Yes,
Angie Colee (41:14):
Of course. But I was serious about that course. Sometimes you have to be the one to believe in the vision and choose who gets to come with you on that vision. And unsurprisingly, to anybody listening, he didn't last much longer after that. , I think it was about six months after I quit that I called it quits and all of that, you know, it comes full circle to what you were talking about with the, with the past. When I was considering leaving him and following my dream, I asked a, a group of business women like whipping up all night, like for several nights in a row, fighting. I don't even know if what I'm thinking right now is logical and rational, but I think it's over. I think I'm done. Yeah. And a very kind stranger shared with me of all things, a Tyler Perry skits of him, of him as Madea in a stage play.
Angie Colee (42:05):
And so I promise, like all of this rambling has a, has a point. The analogy that he used hu my soul in a way that I instantly knew it was over, and I need to go all in and bet on myself, like this relationship is done. Right. And the analogy that he used was, the people in your life are parts of a tree, right? Mm-Hmm. . And the majority of them are going to be leaves. And I'll, I'll make sure that this clip is included in the show notes so that everybody can watch too, because the way he delivers it is just iconic. Right. But most of the people that come into your lives are leaves. Right? The wind blows this way, and they're over here. The wind blows that way, and they're over there. They're not, they're there to do nothing but be a leaf and throw shape, and that's okay. That's what they are. Other people in your life will be branches. They're a little bit more sturdy, a little bit more solid. But sometimes when you step out on that thing, it can't support your weight and it breaks and that's it. Right?
Enda Ndungu (43:02):
Right.
Angie Colee (43:03):
Much more rare are going to be the people that are roots of the tree. They go deep, they're harder to destroy. There are a lot less of them than there are the leaves. But when you've got somebody who qualifies as a root, who can support you from that depth, that's somebody to hold onto, let go of the leaves, let go of the broken branches. Right. And focus on the roots, because the roots are what will allow you to grow. I'm gonna, I'm gonna include that clip, but like once I watched that, I was like, yep, this is a leaf. This is somebody who watched me go from homeless living in Bay Area, San Francisco Bay area, working up to an $80,000 a year corporate job that I cobbled together out of nothing. And still believed that I would fail at starting a business. You're gonna have people like that in your life, and you have to let 'em go.
Enda Ndungu (43:54):
Yeah. I mean, if, if you don't let them grow, if you don't let them grow, then there's no growth. Yes. And, and I think, you know, because, because sometimes we kind of get lost in the, you are this person to me, you know? Mm-Hmm. had a good thing. We have a good thing. But then the reality is, you know, if you project five years from now, you know, will you have kind of let go of the vision because well, you know, these people kind of convinced me that the vision wasn invalid, and yet you'd be five years in or Mm-Hmm. would you rather just choose and, you know, do the thing, let them go. And then five years, you know, your vision, you know, has begun and it's kind of, you know, making progress. Right. And I think a big lesson out of all of that was also we need to learn how to do the hard things.
Enda Ndungu (44:44):
Right? Mm-Hmm. . And the weird thing is, you know, in the moment the hard things are really hard. You know, it kind of feels like you're gonna die. It kind of feels like, you know, you've lost a whole bunch of important organs and you know, you're not getting through this . But in the long term, you know, the very thing that was so difficult to do actually has the greatest ripple effect, and usually is the thing that kind of propels you forward. Right? So, you know, even if I look at, you know, some of the things that have happened, so for example, leaving that job, that was a really hard thing because I had Mm-Hmm. , I had zero support. I was not guessing. I knew it. I did not have any support. I did not know how I was gonna pay my bills. And this is coming from someone who lives in a country.
Enda Ndungu (45:28):
We do not have an employment. Mm-Hmm. . So if you're outta a job, you are out like Mm-Hmm. You do not have a credit card, so you have to figure stuff out, right? Yeah. And that was very hard and painful. But then I thought about it and said, one of the questions I asked myself, and I think any person who has a gift, or if you're thinking into going about going into entrepreneurship or starting your own business, whatever it might look like, ask yourself the question, am I staying in my current state or in wherever I am right now? Because I truly believe that this, this is my vision, that I truly believe that this is where I get to execute my vision. Mm-Hmm. . Or am I staying because, well, I'm kind of afraid of the unknown. Mm-Hmm. Now, if, if you are kind of staying because you're afraid of the unknown, then that's a sign that you need to step out.
Enda Ndungu (46:24):
Mm-Hmm. . And it'll be hard. It might be confusing, but you need to step out, you know, because sometimes we kind of stay because it's comfortable. You know, I have a guaranteed paycheck. I don't have to overthink things. I don't have to, because sometimes we perceive as if, you know, starting a business kind of starting from scratch, in some ways it is, right? Mm-Hmm. . But then we kind of see that and it's like, well, you know, this job is kind of guaranteed, but in essence, actually it's not. Because somebody could wake up one day and say, eh, I don't see what you do for my business, so bye. And it's like, you know, that's out of your control. And I think it feels worse, um, when that happens, you know? So, oh yes. Doing the hard things is one of the things that I have found that really benefits you and Mm-Hmm. that kind of also ties in with building a business will be one of the personal, the, the greatest personal developmental things that you will ever do for yourself. Mm-Hmm. you in ways that you didn't think were possible. You know? Uh, sometimes I oh yeah. I'm like, I don't, I don't understand. Like, why am I feeling this fear now? Yes. I thought that, you know, I kind of gotten through that. Like, I don't understand. Why is it back? You know? Mm-Hmm.
Angie Colee (47:45):
. And I remember that was a surprising thing to me. 'cause I've been in some, some big rooms with some big name entrepreneurs, people who have built really, really solid businesses. Yeah. And I remember talking to one at a mastermind where he was, he was getting ready to launch something and made kind of an offhand joke about, well, I'm betting the mortgage on this, so it has to work. And I was like, holy, are you serious? And he goes, no. I mean, the, I paid the mortgage off years ago, but every time I do something like this, I get scared and I'm convinced it's the one that's going to, to let them know that everything I've done, I've been a fraud this entire time. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm making it all up. This is gonna be the one that wrecks everything that I've built.
Angie Colee (48:24):
And that was a light bulb moment for me. 'cause it was like, it never really goes away. And when I started to examine that, I realized it's, it's a function of being, of doing the hard thing, like you said. Mm. Stepping out of your comfort zone into the unknown. Every time you do something new, even if it's 10, like level 10 above what you're doing, right, it's still going to be an unknown. And the skills that you have developed to get you to that level aren't the skills that are gonna take you beyond that. The next level you may have, develop, develop new skills. Yep. You may have to uplevel those existing skills and, and put them to the test in, in new and interesting ways. But like every time you do that, no matter how far you've come, it's going to be a deeply uncomfortable experience.
Angie Colee (49:07):
And that was the same person who told me that a lot of businesses mindset, like even if you look into a business, you inherit a business, you accidentally invent something on the fly one day and you go viral and now you've got a business that people wanna buy stuff from you. Uh, you're still going to have to develop the, the mental fortitude, the ability to pivot and make decisions on the fly and develop those support systems and develop new offers. Like it's all going to be a learning experience no matter how you come at it. So. Love that. Yeah. Well this has been a fascinating conversation. I could talk to you all day. I think we're just gonna have to book a, a part two . We're gonna have to do a follow up and talk about this Absolutely. A little bit more. Absolutely. Well tell us a little bit more about where we can learn about you and how people can work with you.
Enda Ndungu (49:53):
Oh, okay, great. So you can go to my website, www.theoakpenoneword.com and you will see, you know, how I work with people. You will also see an intake form if you're interested. You know, some of the questions that I ask that you kind of understand where I'm coming from. Um, and yeah, I think that that's the quick, I'm also on Facebook and LinkedIn with my name, so, and , even though it's kind of hard to say, but you will know it's me. Um, and yeah, I can, I'll
Angie Colee (50:27):
Have clickable links in the show notes so that everybody can follow that. Um, yes,
Enda Ndungu (50:30):
Absolutely.
Angie Colee (50:31):
And I didn't, I didn't set out to say this But for, for longtime listeners of the show, you may recognize Inda name because when we did that two parter, best of episode a hundred and 109, Inda was critical behind the scenes as another longtime fan of the show in helping me pull those best of clips, she listened to every single minute of every single episode and showed me all of the brilliance of all of the guests, which I, I already knew that they were all brilliant. But that just goes to show you how brilliant and insightful NDA is, and the passion that she brings to everything she did. Like I would've made, I would've made the first best of clip, like three hours and 58 minutes, no lie.
Enda Ndungu (51:16):
So, yeah, I, I did, I did have to tell her, Nope. Mm-Hmm. Yeah, that's true. Like, that's incorrect.
Angie Colee (51:22):
, she had to crack down on me and be like, no, you cannot make a four hour long episode. You have to cut it down. These are the best ones to use. So I loved working with Inda and I think that, uh, you would love working with Inda as well. Go check her out. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was a pleasure. It was
Enda Ndungu (51:39):
A pleasure, Anji, as always,
Angie Colee (51:43):
That's all for now. If you wanna keep that Kick Ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high octane dose. If you can do it, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you stream your podcast. I'm your host, Angie Colee, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening, and let's go Kick Ass some.