Hello and welcome back to cultivating growth. We want to thank everyone for joining us again this week. We're going to be wrapping up our discussion on the family this month with a special episode because Jeremy and I have our wives in with us today and we're going to pose a couple of questions to them about their roles as mothers and wives and, uh, try to learn a little bit from their experiences firsthand.

As we wrap up this study. Just one quick note, uh, next week will be a fifth week, or fifth Monday of the month, and so we're gonna be off that Monday, and so the next episode you'll see after this one will be on Monday, April 7th, and we're gonna begin a discussion that month about who God is, and we're gonna be thinking about Him as the God who is omnipresent,  Omniscient, omnipotent.

So we're going to begin that discussion on April 7th. So tune in with us then as we begin that topic for April. So with all that said, let's get into the discussion this week. 

Well, John, it's good to see you as always. And as you made mention, we have our wives here with us. And so that is certainly special for us. And, uh, Kim, my wife is here. Ashley, yours is here. And we've been spending time this week. Uh, or this month, really, talking about the family, and we've talked about husbands, and we've talked about wives, and we've talked about the parent child relationship.

And in a lot of ways, you know, we've been springboarding, certainly, off of Scripture. What does God have to say about the role of the husband, about the role of the wife, about the role of parents and children? And so we thought about, you know, bringing our wives in here to kind of close out that discussion, to kind of help us, you know, with an understanding a little bit of,  You know, kind of what the Bible has to say about that, but now from that, uh, womanly perspective, uh, if you will.

And so we've got a couple of questions, um, that we'll kind of springboard and use, uh, to base our discussion off of today. And so, uh, the first question is this, and I'll kind of pose this, uh, across the table here to my wife to kind of begin. We've spent a lot of time, certainly in Scripture, about what God has to say.

to the parent, to the mother, to the father, to the husband, to the wife. And so from your perspective, kind of per what the Bible teaches about parenting specifically, how has the Bible kind of impacted your approach, if you will, when it comes to parenting?  Well, when you think about Deuteronomy 6, 6 through 9, we talk about  teaching our children When we're sitting, when we're rising up, when they're walking by the way, and that's really what we do as moms, we're with our kids all the time.

So maybe we're singing songs or with Bible verses in them, or we're talking about God's nature, and we want it to be all encompassing, right? So when you have a young mom, you're with your kids a lot, and you're talking about everyday things that are happening, and you're, adding God into it. So as us, as when we were parenting, you know, our goals was number one, have our children have God in their heart.

So no matter what their choices were in life, they come back to, I love God first. And how do you implant in that, that in their heart is, um,  Adding it to their life all the time. The mom adds the nurturing and the love, the example and the encouragement aspect of it. And I think that part of that was teaching our children that God had a plan for them and that he had worked for them in his kingdom.

And so they are individuals and God gave them special talents and you think about first Samuel 2, 18 when Samuel went and worked with Eli it said and the boy Samuel grew in the presence of the Lord and then A similar verse to that in Luke 2 was when Mary was marveled in it and treasured, treasured these things in her heart as the mom of Jesus.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man. And so this idea that God has a job for them to do and there's joy in serving Christ. And I think a mom can teach that to their child because they're continually serving their family. And that's what God has put before them to do.

And when we do that with. joyful contentment in life, even when we're carpooling or we're making their sandwiches. If we're living joyfully to the Lord in that service, our children see that example and then they start living that same way with God first serving joyfully.  I love that. I love, I love the, the importance you placed on the example that you all set for your families and just the continual nature of the teaching that's involved in that, that's so important, uh, for all of us to consider, but especially as your role as a mother being there with your children so frequently and being that example for them and teaching them in God's way.

I love how you phrased that. So, Ashley, what about you? When you think about what the Bible has to say. about your role as a mother. What are some of the things that that has taught you? I also thought of Deuteronomy 6. Um, that's such a core passage, I think, for parents, teaching them diligently, speaking of God's laws, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, when you rise up.

And the longer that I'm a mother, it's become such a core belief for me that parenting, mothering, Helping loving Children takes a lifetime's worth of time, and these days families are going different directions, and it's hard. It's hard to prioritize time, but sitting down as a as a husband and wife and deciding, like,  We need time.

We need time with the kids, not just for quality time, but for influence. Influence takes presence and  women specifically, I think, are designed by God to be a life giving presence. You know, the Bible actually doesn't talk to mothers all that frequently,  but even the design of women and what we observe even in the creation of how God  Created women to be the initial givers of life in the womb, um, and then all throughout life, you know, whether we're feeding children are nourishing them emotionally, we're giving them life.

And so just this metaphor of women daily being a life giving presence to our Children and inspiration to them, one who brings life and light to the home and to relationships. I think women are uniquely suited for that. Um, yeah. And mothers have a responsibility to, you know, fill ourselves up with light and life so that we have light and life to give to our children.

Anytime my kids, you know, have a little bit more of a spring in their step or a little bit more of a smile on their face after having an interaction with me, makes me feel like I have imparted a little bit of life to them in their journey with God. And that's so important. Um,  I also think about, um, talking about Genesis, God's use of the word helper to create Eve and that Hebrew word, um, azer, and how it means a powerful force for aid, um, And, and how Eve is that for Adam and, and wives are that for husbands.

I think moms are also that for children. We're helping them become who God made them to become. Like you were talking about, Kim, they have, they have a journey that they're going to be on in their lifetimes and God has worked for them and we are. Helping them become everything they can be, that takes intentionality and time and, um, it doesn't happen on accident. 

You know, you made mention of that passage in Genesis, and we've talked a lot about that, that Genesis 2 passage. you know, this month a lot. We've talked about it with the husbands, with the wives, and even when we talked about parents and children, we've used that passage a lot. And as we kind of work through this month, it almost has occurred to me almost how important that passage is with reference to the family, because you do get the understanding of the unit for sure.

Uh, the, you know, the man and the wife being And so you have the idea of the unit, but it is that idea of the helper that that was, you know, one of the, one of the main reasons that God is, is giving a wife to the husband is that helper idea. And now the importance of them being together and how important that, that relationship is to the family and then the impact some of that then can have. 

Parenting. And so, you know, there's so many things, you know, said about parenting direction, for sure, biblically. And, you know, a lot of it really stems out of that strong husband and wife relationship. And if that relationship is strong, man, that's gonna flow into the way that, um, you know, the husband's and wife parent.

And so I really, really like the use of that passage. So one other quick question for, you know, kind of the both of you. Before we leave parenting behind and kind of move into the wife territory just a little bit.  Um, you know, both of us, uh, you know, we have three kids each, but our kids are different ages.

Our kids are much older than what, uh, John and Ashley's kids are. Our youngest is in college. We have two out of college, one married, one almost to be married, and your, John and Ashley's kids are, uh, are smaller and younger than that. And so Kim, just kind of, uh, unique perspective. Um, if you will, what is maybe something that you've learned about parenting?

You know, now that your kids are older and really kids have even left the house. What's something that you've kind of learned about parenting as we've kind of moved into this new era, if you will?  Well, I think definitely our roles change, right? We go from ruling the roost and telling everybody what the schedules are and training and directing. 

things to more being the role of an encourager. Um, we are to encourage them that they can do this, not to fear. And my mom always said, you know, um, as life goes on, you get further up the mountain and you can see further and we're halfway up the mountain, right? So we can see what we've done in the past and we have that wisdom from the past, but we can also Have confidence that God will provide our future while our Children are starting out, and that's a lot harder and instead of kind of berating them over their head, maybe they made a bad choice, or that wouldn't be in the financial choice we would have made or whatever.

The idea of encouraging them and Helping them seek God as an adult, um, because it's their choice to move forward in that faith. And so our job really is to encourage them that they can do it with God's help. And I think, um, I also picture it as there's just more people at the table. Right. And so that's a blessing.

It's not something to fear letting your children go. It's actually a beautiful process to see them bloom in God and work in his kingdom and do all the things that you told them that God promised for them. And now they're fulfilling that for him and his kingdom. And so it's a beautiful thing to watch that happen.

But there's more voices at the table. And so it's okay to take a backseat and your voice not always be heard. You know, when you're parenting and they're young, you immediately say, don't do that, don't touch that. And you're in the forefront of everything they do. And as they become an adult, and they start making choices on their own, and they're building their own families.

You take a back seat to that and you encourage them and help them along the way. And you know, I think of Titus 2, 3 through 5 when it talks about the older women teaching the younger women, um, to be reverent and not slander and do good and love their husbands and their children and self control and, you know, be workers at home and submissive to their husband.

You do that through example. You do that through deep. conversations, you know, you befriend them and their significant other and you love them like you loved your Children. But that's with  respect and care.  It's with respect and care that you go back and  do that  with a different perspective that you're encouraging them and you're encouraging them.

And having faith in them and trusting them that they're going to make the right decisions because they're in the Lord and they love God and they love his word, and they're ultimately going to do the things that we did are the points we had. We wanted our Children to love God with all their heart, put God in their heart.

We wanted them to live in joy of the Lord and service, and we wanted them to use work hard and use what God gave them. for his kingdom. And so you're encouraging them to do the same thing, but just in a different way.  Those are some great thoughts. And, you know, I'm sitting here as, as Jeremy said, as a parent of, of children who are just shy of kind of entering into the teenage years and still, you know, increasing from the toddler stage into that person they're going to become.

And so it's really, Interesting to hear the perspective of someone who's kind of on the other side of that. And I appreciate, you know, those thoughts around that topic. So Ashley, to you, as has been mentioned, our children are a little bit younger. We have three children as well. And our youngest child we adopted.

We adopted her a little over a year and a half ago. She's been with us for about two and a half years. But I was wondering from your perspective, as we've gone through the process of adoption and, and bringing a child into our home that biologically wasn't ours, what has that process taught you about what it means to be a godly mother from the perspective of someone who has brought a child into your home? 

That's a tough one. It's tough. Uh, we're still so early in the process. This was hard for me to think about holistically and then also a lot about the topic of adoption would be better discussed with a cup of coffee or on the kitchen table.  Um, but as I tried to think about a big observation, a big lesson that I have learned from this process that I think actually can apply to all families, um, is that,  It's so powerful and so important, uh, as mothers and fathers, but to create a family culture where the things that you value are normal and celebrated and positive and actually easy to enjoy.

I was so nervous, um, when Rayleigh came home. Which was about a year before our adoption went through with her  and she was already six and a half. I was so nervous that she would not like the things that we like. I love reading aloud to my children. We like watching Old movies. Um, we, we have some pretty specific eating habits, you know, just like even simple things.

But then, of course, big fierce to, you know, spiritual matters, moral training. I was so nervous what that was going to look like.  And wanting to have compassion on her in the adjustment phase and to bring her along into things that, that we value. And watching that unfold since she came home has been amazing because  she has learned very quickly to love the things that we love unexpectedly, um, things that I thought she would just roll her eyes at.

And I think it is.  I think it's a testimony to the power of your family culture. Um, children's hearts will be won over to the culture that is most powerful to them and tugs on their heart and their time and their mental space the most. And so when parents intentionally  ask and answer the question, what do we want the culture to be here?

In this family, it's normal to, um, Share our emotions, or it's normal to love wholesome things, or it's celebrated to spend time together. It's not normal to make fun of people. It's not normal to laugh at dirty jokes. You know, the list could go on and on.  But when you cultivate that on purpose, meaningfully, children want to, um, they want to enjoy the things that the people that they love enjoy.

And you know, Rayleigh's just been so adaptable in that way, and I think it's an encouraging thing to parents because the world we live in, wholesome things are not cool. Nor are they normal and for a family to say, we can create the haven here for all of the children in our care, no matter if they've been with us since birth or not.

Um, and we can make it really easy for them to love good things. And I've seen it happen with a child that's been in our home for less than three years. And that has left a huge imprint on me. I'll say one thing just in follow up to that. I think it's a testament to how trainable children are, and that really opens my eyes to what God says in his scripture about the responsibility that parents have to train your children.

That responsibility is so heavy because children are going to be trained by someone and something. 100%. It's either going to be you as parents, or it's going to be the world. And so God gives parents the responsibility to train those children because he recognizes how trainable they are as young people, how moldable their hearts are.

And so the responsibility lies heavy on us as parents to do that. I mean, really a great perspective all around, you know, when it comes to parenting. And kind of piecing all of that together, I think in a lot of ways. You know, as a parent, we're trying to set our children up. for spiritual success. That ultimately is what, you know, all of this is.

I mean, you want them to have success in the world. You want them to, you know, have success in other things. But God is pointing us as parents to make sure our children are set up for spiritual success. And ultimately, that is the one job that He has given to us. You know, we've used Ephesians chapter 5 and the beginning of Ephesians chapter 6 a lot this month.

And one of the main things that we kind of came away with It's the simplicity with God gives the jobs for each of the roles within the family. There is a simplicity. Now, the application of that, uh, there are, you know, has its challenges, and, you know, for a couple minutes we'll talk.  I don't know about the perspective of, you know, of the wife, specifically, and, you know, a lot of that comes from Ephesians 5 and 6.

And so, you know, for instance, in Ephesians chapter 5, specifically to the husband, God says, Here's your one thing, love your wife as Christ loved the church. That is your one thing. Even at the beginning of chapter 6, to the parent. Fathers, here is your one thing, bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

That is your one thing. And for the wife, there lies still the one thing, submit yourself to your own husbands. Respect your husbands, as it says at the very end of that. Uh, of that chapter. And so, uh, Kim, I'll kind of direct this, you know, in your, uh, kind of direction. But, you know, we have that in there in Ephesians chapter 5, you know, that, that, that job of the wife.

Submit yourselves to your own husbands, you know, as to the Lord. Submission culturally is a kind of a, an odd, really a difficult, you know, kind of thing, you know, culturally for people to talk about. But God certainly makes it clear. to the wife that this is the job that she has to submit herself to her own husbands.

And so for you, as you think about, you know, that job that God has laid upon you and the role that you have as a wife, what kind of does that look like for you, you know, kind of on a day to day basis?  Well The first thing I had to learn about that verse was it said, um, submit to your own husband, and I think it's really important for women to not compare to other families or other people, but to look to their own husband as he needs, um, submission because we are to aid and help it.

Him and help him strengthen and do things that he is not able to do himself. That's what a helper suitable is able to do. And if you don't know what your husband needs or the, the household that he's creating, you cannot compare to other people. And so, um, Jeremy taught me that a long time ago. You know, I, he, one, he married me because I did have an opinion and I had thoughts, and that's okay to share those.

That's not usurping authority. By doing that, when it's in a. household that he's asked for that. It's the manner in which you do that that can be submissive or not. For instance, you know, really pushing your agenda and continually going back when he doesn't think it's a good idea. That's obviously not working and what God has asked to do or complaining.

Um, I think, you know, you think of a submissive household and why that works so well, where there's all this joy that comes in at one. You get to relieve some stress because you don't have to be in control of everything. Moms are already in control of a significant amount of details throughout the day.

Think how many things you do and decisions you make throughout the day, making from making sandwiches and training your kids and potty training and just everything that you do and giving that control to your husband, which the Lord has asked helps him be a better leader. But it relieves your stress, right?

It endears you to your husband. Um, there's intimacy and a relationship when there's a trust and a bond and reliance on each other. He's relying on you to run things at home and train your children and do certain jobs and you're relying on him to provide and lead. And so Proverbs 31, 11 and 12 says, you know, The heart of the husband, trust in her and he will have no lack of gain.

She does him good and no harm all the days of his life. And that's that respect and honor and appreciation and encouragement that a wife gets to give to her husband. It is a gift that she gets to give to him. Um, and I think that that's,  I don't want to say, I know it sounds silly, but it's kind of like the secret mission, right?

Like nobody knows. All the things that a mom does throughout the day for her children. And no one knows all the things that the wife does for her husband. But it's so respectable to have that humble service attitude. And it isn't the norm, it isn't the way society looks, but you're so much happier when that goes the way God has asked it to be.

You're encouraging him and you're believing in him to be the leader. He can't be the leader God's made him if you don't allow him to. If you don't give him the space to grow and the grace and mercy to realize that we're not perfect, we're all human and we're growing and we're, but we're on this path together.

And so I think when you look at what that looks like day to day, it's not complaining, but being grateful and having that joyful home of service and, um, Respect for him and that make brings joy, right? It endears everyone to each other, and that's the way God made it to work all along. I appreciate how you emphasize when the wife fulfills her role in this capacity.

That's when the family family thrives. And I think far too often society looks down on this concept of submission when in reality the way God frames it, he's giving this responsibility to the wife so that she can thrive in her role. The husband can thrive in his role. The household. can thrive when these roles are being respected.

So Ashley, kind of same question to you on that topic of submission. When you think about what the Bible has to say about that and how you've approached that as a wife, how do you approach this concept of submission?  One of my favorite things about submission, I don't remember where this was pointed out to me, but submission means that all of my abilities and all of my talents are at your disposal.

For your good. And that's really empowering, actually. Um, because, you know, some of us are maybe more opinionated or bolder or more confident. And there's such a spectrum of women and God made them all and such a spectrum of men. And God's paired us up in different ways. Um,  but submission means that everything that I can do and I can do well.

Is that his disposal? And so sometimes that that looks like, you know, you delegating things to me, you asking me to 100 percent own something that you don't want to have anything to do with. Um, and, and there's joint excitement for me to do that. Um, sometimes it means yielding management or, you know, I've put in my two cents and, and you're You're like, okay, considered and we're gonna go a different direction.

Like you mentioned, I'm not going to keep bringing that up. Um,  maybe it's setting aside an idea or a plan I have if it's like, well, that that doesn't really fall under my umbrella in our marriage. Um, I think it also has a lot to do kind of like you already mentioned, John, with just embracing your leadership and encouraging in you that in you and not fighting you for it.

Um,  I think There is a desire that women have to do that. I think the Bible talks about that in Genesis after the fall when, um, when, when it says that the wife's desire will be for her husband, I know that can be interpreted in different ways, but, but in some ways, women do want that leadership or they do want that role.

And the reality is that, um, That would look really different in the marriage and to use the word that you used It would not be as thriving of a situation because it wouldn't it wouldn't use the ways that God created me  to whether it's to nurture or to plan or to fill in details or to  to take up whatever the role is in the given day.

It can look so different, but I also find a lot of, um, comfort in knowing that submission should not be strange to Christians in general. In fact, in Ephesians 5, right before it says, wives submit to your husbands, it said, just talking about Christians says submitting to one another in the fear of God.

And so me submitting to my husband is a niche of me submitting to. One another submitting to God and my husband is also submitting to God and in some ways submitting to me as a sister in Christ. And so there's submission all around when we live in humility and obedience, um, and we just understand the kind of.

Yeah, I think, you know, kind of one more thought to kind of close all that out, you know, it, it is one of those kind of hot button, you know, cultural topics that the world kind of looks at it as kind of a negative, you know, thing for the woman, but I think the point that both of you That you both have made is that certainly when it comes to submission, it is not to be looked at in a negative way at all, or a burden or something to carry, that it is a positive thing.

It's something that God has given, you know, within the family, specifically to the wife, that is to enhance, you know, the marriage. All of these things are to make it better, to make it profitable, to make it enhanced. And be able to see that in the positive light, as you two certainly do, it can make really all the difference.

And ultimately, that's what God is looking for. We're going to kind of close, you know, our conversation. Certainly appreciate both of you for being with us. Super helpful perspective. of, you know, here at the very end of our time this month and talking about the family. We've spent a lot of time in the book of Genesis, and so I thought it made sense to close with a couple of foundational,  uh, points that is made literally at the very beginning of God's Word when it comes to the family.

So two quick verses. One, Genesis chapter 2, and verse 18, we've made reference to both of these, where the Lord God said, it's not good that man should be alone, I will make him a helper comparable to him. And then he. He forms Eve out of the ground, and so at the end of that, the very end of that chapter, uh, the point will be made in verse  24, A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 

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Thanks again for joining us this week, and we'll talk to you again next week.