Thank you once again for listening to Cultivating Growth podcast. It's a special week for us. We have a guest with us, uh, Emerson, who preaches over at Westfield Church of Christ. We're excited to have him here as we kind of close out our month and talking about salvation, the three weeks that we've been.

Kind of discussing this topic. We started with talking specifically about sin and that it is man's greatest problem and, and ultimately then how to deal with that God's perspective, grace, mercy, forgiveness. And then ultimately, we talked about the role of baptism last week, and so we'll kind of pull all those things together.

And have a good conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Let's get to it.

Well, Jeremy, you mentioned in the intro we've got a special guest with us. Emerson Brown from the church at Westfield is here. Emerson, thanks for joining us. I'm excited to, to talk about, uh, this topic with you today. I know obviously, a, as a preacher, you've been preaching for quite a while, and as a Christian, you've been a Christian for quite a while.

Uh, one of the main topics that we teach, that we, uh, talk about that means the most to us is salvation. And we've been spending the past couple of weeks here on this podcast talking about. That very topic. And as Jeremy mentioned, we've talked about sin and we've talked about, uh, the problem that it creates for man and God's plan to deal with that for us.

And so as you think about salvation, we'll just kind of begin in generalities as you think about this topic, whether you're studying it personally or whether you're preparing to preach or teach on a topic like that, how do you go about approaching a topic like salvation, uh, from your perspective? Well, thanks guys for, uh, the invitation to be with you, first of all, um, when, when I think about salvation just in general, um, this is really what the Bible is all about.

It's the main thing from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation. This is what God is working toward. Through the entire text of the Bible. So, um, there are so many themes that salvation comes back to, and there are so many ways that God expresses our need for salvation and what he does in salvation.

Big words that we don't use a lot in common language like redemption or reconciliation or atonement. I mean, but those are just concepts that are really, really important to our understanding. Salvation is the most important thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, we need that. You guys have spent time talking about that, and unless we realize that, um, we're not gonna have a recognition of our real dependence on God and how desperately we need him.

Mm-hmm. I just say to begin that's this is what the whole Bible's about. So I appreciate you guys focusing on this topic. Yeah, yeah. I think that's really interesting and certainly where we started with, you know, talking about sin. I think in a lot of ways I, I think that's almost where a lot of people get most tripped up.

I. Of underestimating sin or certainly underestimating the problem. You know, certainly that sin is, you know, we live in a culture and I think it's always been not just our culture, it's probably always been where there, there's a lot of justifications for sin, there's a lot of watering down of sin, and you, you really work your way through the Bible and you're right.

I mean, literally from the very. Beginning, uh, when the first sin occurs, it was devastating. I mean, the punishments were devastating and you see right away we spent time talking about several weeks ago. I mean, the main issue with sin certainly is it's what separates us from God. That is the main problem, and you see that.

Literally see that, you know, in the garden, you know, with that sin and, and that relationship that they, Adam and Eve had with God, and how that changed because they were expelled from the garden. And, and I think really to begin to have an appreciation for what salvation is all about, certainly you've gotta be able to see it play out through the pages.

And, and you're right, the entirety of the Bible kind of paints that picture, but really understanding how devastating sin is and that it, it isn't just. A problem. It is the problem. Mm-hmm. And, and once you can kind of mentally come to that point, you're then begging, uh, you're, you're desperate to find the solution for it.

And we, we've used Acts chapter two to kind of, uh, prove that point a little bit with Peter's sermon. You know, when talking to the Jews there and, and when they came to that realization of how devastating their sin of putting Jesus on the cross when they come to that realization, but they were desperate.

What, what, you know, what can we, they were desperate. Mm-hmm. What, what can we do? And luckily there, there is an answer and that really in a lot of ways is, is what makes salvation great. When you have that understanding with just how big of a problem sin really is. And we've talked about too. In this conversation about just how hopeless and helpless mankind would be to deal with this problem of sin if it weren't for God's love and compassion shown towards us.

Because the reality is, is you guys have both pointed out, you don't have to get more than two pages into the Bible before sin enters the picture and the whole thing falls apart. That's right. And And if we were left to our own devices. Then we would just be a complete mess with no hope. But God loved his creation, loves his creation so much that he doesn't wanna leave us where he found us in Genesis chapter three, he doesn't wanna leave us there.

I. And so the rest of the Bible lays out his plan for redemption. And I, I think you're right, Emerson, when you talk about this topic in particular, you, you do have to do a little bit of legwork to help everyone understand kind of the words that are associated with this topic. Because you're right, outside of Bible study, it's rare to use some of these words like reconciliation in a.

Atonement and those types of things, but those words are so important to understand because of what they, what the implication of those things are to me, as a follower of Christ. I have to have the confidence that he paid the price for my sins and that my sins have truly been forgiven. And it's important that I understand the vocabulary around this topic.

'cause I think it really goes to just deepen my appreciation for what he's done for us. And even though those words are not very common in our everyday lingo, I think at. Our very heart, every person understands the concepts on some level. Like you take reconciliation when two people are at odds with each other and they're fighting.

One person has hurt the other, betrayed the other. I. We understand that there's a need for reconciliation. That's just human nature. Mm-hmm. That's the way relationships work. Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, the Bible uses many illustrations of people who were at odds. Jacob and Esau. I mean, Jacob swindled, Esau, several times, Esau became jealous and angry and wanted to murder his brother.

And then you have the beautiful picture in Genesis of forgiveness and reconciliation. Mm-hmm. And. I mean, this can be multiplied many times over, but we understand those concepts. We just have to try to apply them to our relationship with God, and that's what these stories are really all about. Yeah, I think you can even take that story one step further with Jacob and Esau specifically is Jacob.

I think certainly there at the end when that reconciliation occurred. I don't think he real, he, he believed he deserved that. Mm-hmm. I mean, he, he really thought that Esau had every right, uh, to be upset, had every right to kill him. And he thought, you know, we're, we're in big, big trouble here. Esau's coming.

We got a big problem and, and we should have a big problem. Mm-hmm. And, and that goes to John's point of, you know, of understanding that, man, you know, sin is this big, big problem. And then you come to that understanding that it, it is a big, big problem and I can't do anything about it. Mm-hmm. Now you that desperation is building and I think that that's what elevates God and certainly where grace and mercy comes into play.

That even though I, there's nothing that I can do about, you know about it. His desire to have a relationship with a man is so strong and it's difficult to comprehend. It's difficult to think about why he has that strong of a desire to have a relationship, but he clearly does. And then to be able to see how that plays out.

And to then move from, well then, yeah, I, I, I want to have, and now you're motivated in every way by simply by that relationship. And Philippians chapter one, you know, comes to mind. You know, for me, when you have Paul kind of, you know, in his own mind, you know, working back and forth between death, right? He is like, Hey, it's not, it's, it's, it's a challenge here on this earth.

And he is thinking, you know, it, it would be far better. I if I were dead and, and I were, were gone. And it's, he, he makes a point on why it would be far better. Verse 23 specifically. I'm hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. And so, you know, it, it's not where he's like, you know, heaven, heaven is the key, you know, the big mansion that's waiting for me, the streets of gold.

I mean, kind of, you know, he had that understanding. The key component and draw of heaven is to be with God. Mm-hmm. And man, when you can start marrying all of those things. Yeah. It, it becomes a, a, it's a beautiful picture. Salvation is a beautiful picture of relationship. You're right, literally from the very beginning of the book of Genesis to the end of the book of Revelation.

And I think when you use some of those Old Testament stories like you guys have brought up, whether it's Jacob and Esau or David or Noah or Abraham, I mean all these different Old Testament stories that play out where you get to see pictures of. God's promise and God's deliverance and God's sanctification and God's sacrifice.

You get to see all of this play out in some of these Old Testament stories. It helps us then when we get to the New Testament, to have that understanding of what's actually transpiring. So when you get to passage like Romans chapter five and, and we're told that God demonstrated his love towards us and that while we were still sinners.

Christ died for us. And then he goes on to say he did that so that he could justify us and so that we could be reconciled to him to talk about that redemption that we have in Jesus Christ. The, the lessons and the principles that we learn from some of those stories in the Old Testament. Uh, then once we understand that and we get to the picture of Jesus and we see what he's done for us.

Now our appreciation and our understanding of what this really means for me is just exponentially greater because I realize the problem that I have and that my helplessness to overcome it. And yet even when I was in a sinful state, even when I was an enemy of gods, as Paul says here in Romans chapter five, Jesus died for me.

He offered that sacrifice. We talked about this a couple weeks ago in Hebrews is where, you know, the Hebrew writer tells us that he did so once for all time. Mm-hmm. Right. The ultimate sacrifice was made on my behalf so that while I was in sin. Jesus died so that I could be justified, so that I could be reconciled to him, and, and, and that just, there is no greater thought to, to consider as someone who longs for that home in heaven, longs to be with God for all of eternity.

To think that he paved the way to make all of that possible, only because he loves me. I, I, I didn't deserve it. He just loves me that much and, and that is just such an overwhelming. Thought to consider, but that really is at the crux of a conversation around salvation. So there's a New Testament story that, you know, you were talking about some Old Testament stories, but there's one in the New Testament.

Um, Luke chapter seven is, um, an account. Account where Jesus is invited to Simon, the Pharisees home for dinner. And what happens here I think is really relatable. Some of those Old Testament stories can be a little bit obscure, but this one really is relatable. And I think, uh, beginning in, uh, Luke chapter seven, verse 36, I.

It really summarizes the theme of themes of salvation in a, in a, in a really powerful way. So while Jesus is at this Pharisees home for dinner, there's this woman that comes in and texts, calls her a sinner. In other words, she has a lot of baggage and everybody knows it. And she comes into the center of the room and she falls at Jesus's feet and begins weeping there.

And if you can imagine. What a dinner party would be like today. It would be just really awkward, really embarrassing for everybody in the room to see this, you know, express of emotion here. Mm-hmm. She is weeping at his feet, crying, wetting his feet with her tears and the pharisee. Kind of takes a step back and says, if Jesus was really a prophet, he would know who this woman is, and Jesus has a parable to tell him.

And it's a very short parable, but it is incredibly powerful. Can I, can I just read it? Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Verse 41, Luke 7 41. A money lender had two debtors, one owed 500 DEI, and the other 50. And when they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?

Simon answered and said, I suppose the one who, whom he forgave more. And he said to him, you have judged correctly. And at the end of this, in verse 47, Jesus says, for this reason, I say to you her sins, which are many. Have been forgiven for, she loved much, but he who is forgiven little loves little. This, this whole account shows us the difference between someone who doesn't really think that they need salvation, and the person that Jeremy was describing as desperate.

Mm-hmm. They are desperate for salvation. This woman. Knew her need for Jesus more than anything else. And that's why she came into this room and humbled herself at Jesus's feet. And I think we all, at some point in our lives, need to have that kind of, uh, moment where we come to realize that we are lost without Jesus.

Yeah. That's such a powerful story for so many reason, and you're right, the, the value of having that moment as individuals. Can't be overstated to recognize just my absolute depravity and my need for Jesus and, and this story. You're, you're so right. The story highlights it so amazingly because I've always appreciated how she's described as she walked in, as you said, as a sinner.

But the last thing that Jesus says to her is, your faith has saved you. Mm-hmm. She, she went from being a sinner. To being saved. Yeah. And it was all because of Jesus and her recognition of her need for her. And that's the experience that all of us can have. I mean, that's what God wants for all of us to go from that depravity and that need to finding Christ.

The sacrifice that he has made for us and our faith, saving us through him and leaving no longer as a debtor, no longer as a debtor to sin. We're not enslaved by sin any longer because he has set us free. That that is such a powerful testimony to Jesus's power. Again to his love and desire to save us.

Yeah. I don't think it's a coincidence in any way, but I mean, you take a look at, you know, what we refer to as a Sermon on the Mount in Matthew five, six, and seven. I mean, it, it is a, it's a piece of text. I mean, you could study literally for years. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's so. Much happening and there's so many profound things said and talked about, you know?

But you know, in general, you, you think about those three chapters and it's Jesus kind of outlining, I, if you're going to be one of my disciples, this is what that looks like. And, and it kind of works his way. And, and again, it is a profound thing that kind of, uh, uh, flows out in those three chapters. But yet literally the very.

First words out of his mouth. I mean, in Matthew chapter five, he's got the picture. I, I, it's a multitude of people there on the mountain. The very first words out of his mouth, the beginning of the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit. That's the very first thing that he says. And, and so this's an incredible outline of, if you're gonna be one of my disciples, these are some things you need to be thinking about.

Out of the gate. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. He, he's painting a picture of that understanding of that spiritual depravity and the. Urgency that that should get you to, and, and that that is what salvation is. And, and it, it becomes probably this word grace and mercy comes into play.

You're like, well, I don't understand grace and mercy. I think that's the point, right? You're, you're not, you're not supposed to understand it, but you're like, God has done this incredible thing for us, and, and it just, you know, it, it's, it's overwhelming, you know, sometimes even to think about. Yeah, go ahead, Emerson.

Yeah, it's, it's tempting and very difficult for someone who has generally lived a very good life and, you know, not done a whole lot of what the world would think are bad things, grew up going to church, that kind of thing for us to see ourselves as this woman. Mm-hmm. But we all need to, um, there's an analogy that has helped me here and.

It kind of comes from the idea of this, the two debtors, you know, one owed 500 Dera, one owed only 50. An analogy that has helped me is what's the difference? Or maybe to ask it this way, who's in a, in a worse spot? Someone who is drowning in 50 feet of water. Or someone who's drowning in 500 feet of water problem is they're both gonna drown.

They're both drowning. And in this parable, both men were drowning in their debt. Mm-hmm. They could not pay. Yeah. And he graciously forgave them both. And so the difference between. Say someone who, uh, has lived a good life and you know, they put, it's tempting to put our trust in those things and say, well, that's why God's gonna save me, versus someone who has lived a very, uh, ungodly, immoral life.

And that person has temptations too, to think, well, you know, God can't save me or. God's grace isn't good enough. We, we all need to recognize that we are in the same boat. Mm-hmm. And there is no way we can have salvation, if not for God's grace. That's it. I mean, that's, that's what it all comes down to. And we talked about, you know, that, how Paul talks about that in Ephesians chapter two, you know, very clearly telling us that it's, it's that grace that saves us and we're saved by grace through faith.

And, and we have to recognize just the amazing gift that that is to us. And you know, I think your analogy, Emerson, is really good. I think it's, it's even perhaps more helpful to think of it from our perspective, uh, to think about, you know, the, the drowning man and, and 50 feet of water, 500 feet of water doesn't really matter.

I think at, at that point, we, we have to be able to take a step back and realize that. I needed someone to pull me outta that water. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, I'm dead. I need somebody to pull me outta that water. I can't, I can't swim my way out of it. I can't get out of it. I need somebody. But then I also have to remember, once someone has pulled me outta that water, once Jesus has done that for me and pulled me outta that water, I'm not drowning anymore.

Mm-hmm. And I think sometimes one of the things we, we've talked about this over the past couple weeks, you know, I. I understand sometimes the reasoning why some people would refer to us as sinners. I understand that, and I certainly don't want to to cast stones in any way. However, I think as Christians, we have to be careful with that verbiage.

Mm-hmm. This, this woman wasn't a sinner when she left. She was saved. The, the debtor who has been forgiven isn't a debtor anymore, and as sinners who have been forgiven and saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, we aren't sinners anymore. We're saved, we're sanctified, we're justified, and we need to think of ourselves using that terminology much more so than the life that we left behind.

And I think that helps us really appreciate, even to a greater degree what Jesus did for us and how I have been transformed. From the life that I once lived to the life that I now live in Him, you see Paul trying to make, he makes that point, especially when he writes to the Brethren and Ephesus and the Brethren and Colossus in those two books, which are similar.

I mean, they're parallel books in a lot of ways, but I mean, he, he makes that point over and over and over. Certainly Roman chapter six kind of paints that, you know, picture a little bit, you know, last week when we were talking about, you know, baptism and the role of baptism and you start to kind of. Piece all of these things together.

You know when, when you come to that realization of how big a problem sin is and that sin is what separates you from God and that God has made an avenue for that sin to be taken away, it it, it certainly, it's gonna come down to your trust and your belief and what, what God has said. And so. You know, a study of the New Testament clearly, you know, paints the picture that baptism is the moment that our sins, you know, are washed away.

That's why you see through the Book of Acts, people jumping at that opportunity. Mm-hmm. Because they're interested in their sins being washed away. Yeah. You see that in Acts 22. We talked about that last week. Certainly the analogy that Paul will use in Romans chapter six with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

But to your point, E, even in Romans chapter six, I mean, the point that Paul has made is that when you come up out of the water. You, you are, you, you're no longer, no longer that old man. You're no longer that sinner. In, in the book of Ephesians, and certainly in Colossians chapter three, you know, he'll use, you know, he uses the, the idea of you've, you've put off, you have put away those old clothes, and now you are, you are putting something, you know, new on.

I mean, you see these analogies, you know, all over the place. Even when Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, you have this old, corrupt, decaying. Sinful man, if you will, who walks out of the grave. And the first thing Jesus says is, get those clothes off. You're, you're not a dead man anymore. And so if we start to think in those terms as Christians, mm-hmm.

I, I think that helps us certainly in an understanding of now what our relationship with God is, which was separate because of sin. But when sin has been dealt with, now you have a relationship with God. Those are two diabolically different things. You guys probably have seen this before, but I wanna get just really quickly, your thoughts on this.

The difference between someone who maybe, um, believes in God, they go to church, they read their Bible, and they live a pretty good life, but they're resistant to the idea of being baptized. Mm-hmm. Jeremy brought up, um, you know, the. New Testament passages, acts two, acts chapter 22, that, that talk about that the difference between that person who might be even arguing with those passages versus someone who has a ton of baggage in their life and they've seen that sin has only led them to dead ends.

And when they read those passages about repentance and baptism mm-hmm. They're ready. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, you guys have seen that, right? Yep. Which, which one? The. Is is this woman? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she is ready to do whatever she can do. She is at his feet and Jesus makes the point to the Pharisee, you didn't even wash my feet, which was common.

Mm-hmm. A thing to do in hospitality. But this woman was more hospitable to Jesus in someone else's house because she loved him that much. Mm-hmm. It's, I think you're talking about. In some way, maybe wouldn't give this type of vocabulary to it, but you're talking about a works-based salvation essentially, where I've done enough, I'm good enough.

You know, I, I read my Bible. I'm a good person. I do a lot of good deeds and, and so there's a resistance to say, I don't, I don't need to be baptized. You know, I've, I, God and I are good. You know, we, we've got a good relationship. And again, they wouldn't necessarily. Say that they're approaching salvation from a workspace perspective.

But that is essentially what we do when we place the emphasis on our works and our deeds and our goodness is we are saying that I can in some ways take care of this problem myself. And to your point, going back to to Luke chapter seven in the story that Jesus tells there, this woman knew. She can't, she can't handle this on her own.

Mm-hmm. Right. The, the debtors can't repay the debt that they owe. This is, this is beyond anything that they can do for themselves. That's where God wants all of us to get to. But I think we have to then understand that just how needy we are before him, regardless of how quote unquote good of a life you've lived or not.

Sin is sin. And sin separates us from God. And that makes us wholly reliant upon him for the salvation that we find. And so then when we come across New Testament and we see that through the waters of baptism, our our slate can be wiped clean, then we should be excited about that too. Whether or not you've lived a quote unquote good life, here's an opportunity to have your sins forgiven, right?

And to have the slate wiped clean and he wants. Us to be excited about that. I think it comes down to, in a lot of ways, and they certainly would never say this, but it's just you just don't believe in what God says. If, if that's the way that you're gonna operate, you just don't believe it, you, you either, number one, don't believe in how devastating sin is and what sin actually does.

Or you don't believe and trust in what God said on how to deal with that sin. You just don't believe it. And, and so that's why you have, you know, a passage like there is in Mark chapter 16 when Jesus is, you know, ascending to heaven. And, and you know, he makes a point to his disciples that, you know, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he does not believe will be condemned.

He, he doesn't have to add the, and he who does not. Be baptized. You know, he doesn't have to, because it ultimately comes down to do you believe in what God has said about sin? Do you believe in what God has said about how you deal with that sin? Or do you not believe that if you believe it, you're going to take the steps to take care of it?

Mm-hmm. Uh, and you're going to be forever grateful that God made those steps available. But if you don't trust in God enough to take those steps, you, you don't believe him. And, and that really becomes the disconnect because I think to your point, and certainly the analogy, Emerson, that you use. I don't know if that person would say, no, I don't trust God.

They, they're gonna say they definitely do. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But their life is showing. Mm-hmm. They don't. Yeah. Well, I feel like we could probably sit around this table and talk about this topic for another hour and a half or so, but we probably shouldn't do that. So, we'll, we'll wrap it up here in a second.

But Emerson, any, any last. Thoughts, any parting words you wanna to leave us with before we wrap things up today? I really appreciate you coming on and being with us. Thank you for that. Well, just one more thing, this parable, um, Jesus asked the question, which of these two men will love him more and what, what comes after salvation?

There's joy and there's love. You think about the Ethiopian eunuch who was baptized in Acts chapter eight, verse 39. He goes on his way rejoicing because his, his debt was paid. And so salvation, the moment that we are, uh, entering into Christ, that's only the beginning. There's so much. There's a life of joy and love and devotion to God, and so salvation is important, but.

It's a, it's about a life lived for God. Yeah. Because of what he has done for us. Absolutely. Well said. Well, let's, let's wrap things up in Matthew chapter 26. We've talked a lot about the sacrifice that Jesus made for us and how that really is the foundation of the salvation that we all seek. And Jesus, as he is instituting the Lord's supper and preparing for his death, we will say this about how his blood.

Is going to deal with man's greatest problems. And he says, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Thank you for listening this week. If you haven't already done so, we'd appreciate it if you would take just a second to subscribe to the podcast, whatever platform you're listening, rate and review the show so we can continue to spread the good news of Jesus widely and effectively as possible. Thanks again for joining us this week, and we'll talk again next week.