GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
GMT welcomes special guest David Kaufman, Director of Global Strategies at Nixon Peabody LLP - Part II
GMT proudly presents Part II of our conversation with the irrepressible and always thoughtful David Kaufman, Director of Global Strategies at Nixon Peabody LLP. In this episode David and Rob dig into global growth strategy or, to put a finer point on it, strategies. Both David and Rob know of what they speak as both are globally recognized leaders in growth across just about every border imaginable. Murray peppers in a bit but he really went to school listening to these two incredibly down-to-earth professionals share their knowledge. This is a treat. Please subscribe and, as always, let us know how we can make this podcast better for you and, if there is a subject, we should consider covering in the GMT podcast.
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded law firm leaders with your host. Robert Bata, principal of Warwick place legal and Murray Coffey, principal of M Coffey, between them, Rob and Murray have about three quarters of a century's experience working with some of the most notable law firms on the planet. This podcast is designed to help those law firm leaders tasked with growth make great decisions about whether and how to implement cross border expansion for their firms and what it takes to succeed. And now part two of GMTs conversation with David Kaufman, the Director of Global strategies at Nixon Peabody,
Rob Bata:I'd like to turn a little bit to the idea of international strategy and international business development, and also in terms of not just bringing into the business, but also looking at opportunities and perhaps law firm expansion, which is really what I do, and cross border mergers and so forth. So one of the ways that I do my job is I try to keep track of friends, and I look at economies, and I look at political situations and so forth. So in one sense, you could say that I kind of sit back and and try to absorb as much information as I can. But in reality, what I really do is my clients come to me, or I might come to my clients, or prospective clients and say, You do x, and that's something that you could do a lot more and lot better, and do much more for your clients if you had a presence in or if you had a relationship in such and such a country. So when a client comes to me and says, but we really need a little bit more of development and clientele in an area that we're now really getting into when we have, you know this person and that person who got great expertise in it, but they're not really sure about how to how to make more of it. I can say this is what that practice would mean in such and such a country, or this is who's doing it somewhere else in the world. And sometimes, to use the points you guys made, this is what you need to do. This is what you need to be doing. So while, on the one hand, I kind of sit back and try to track what's going on in the world. The point of that really is for me to be able to respond very quickly to clients, but at the same time also kind of bide my time. You know, I will take a very long time to think about, is this firm going to be interested, because someday they will want to be in Luxembourg, but not right now, but I'm going to call them in 16 months,
Unknown:a single attorney. I learned a long time ago, a single attorney is not a is not a practice. Make this because and and and hope is not a strategy. And there's a lot of times when, when lawyers will say, you know, you know, we're going to have this practice because that's because that's what you want to do. Yeah, I get it. I understand that's what you want to do. But it doesn't mean that we that we have a practice in this geography. It doesn't mean that we have a practice in this area, you know, let's Who else, who else can we get be interested in doing this? You know? Because, you know, I've seen over the years at our firm and other firms, you start, you know people, you start with great fanfare, and then things either peter out, don't happen, or that person loses interest, or that person leaves, and then, like, what are you left? So I think that an idea is that you know, for you to put that kind of firm weight behind something you really need to have, you know, a broad team of people. You need to have commitment. You need to have, you know, in some extent, you need to have a plan B, a Plan C. You have to figure out, like, Okay, this goes really well, you know what? Who else we have to work with? And it's just, you know, it's the same thing, like, when I work with companies that are coming into the US, you know, I always tell them, I said, let's think about, like, what's the worst case scenario? What's the best case scenario? And, you know, in the worst case scenario is, you know, maybe having a joint venture is not a good idea, because if the joint venture goes south, you know, then you're out of luck in the US. So maybe we think about a joint venture in Florida, and then we give them Florida to do it, whatever. So I think it's the same kind of idea.
Rob Bata:So how do you how do you spot an opportunity? You know, in your case, you see things happen, and you conclude that there's an opportunity. What do you do? And let me give you an example, because I know this is a. Example that that you've, you've dealt with, let's say there's some current banking crisis, or perhaps something having to do with cryptocurrency meltdown, or anything like that. What's, what's the thought process that runs through your mind? Well, the
Unknown:advantage I have is that I deal with a lot, you know, I'm dealing with the real time. I'm dealing with a huge amount of information points. So the idea that, you know, I have, you know, we'll have huge amount of contact and interaction if something's going on, you know, I'm hearing it from our own attorneys. I'm here for compliance and hearing from referral sources, you know. So like when Silicon Valley Bank went down, you know, I got tons of calls because, you know, I've, for some people, they think of it. I'm their guy in San Francisco. So it's like, oh my god, I'm going to call David and see what's happening. And so what I've learned is that oftentimes, you know, that those are, you know, I don't take those as points where I kind of show off and say, like, I know something, because, you know, at the beginning of that, I really didn't have that much to say. But what I did do, you know, my and my grandmother, she had this, this great piece of advice. She said, You know, you have two years and two eyes and one mouth, use it. Use those things and and so I listened. And so I it was interesting, because I'd said by Saturday night, I told my wife, by Saturday night, I had a pretty good idea what was going to happen, because I talked to enough people from various points of the world and, you know, government, you know business, you know outside the US, inside the US, that I kind of figured that the you know, that there would be a backstop in some way, and that, You know exactly I went to bed Saturday night, knowing what, exactly, what happened on Sunday, Sunday evening. So I think, you know, and then kind of advise people along the way what I was thinking when it comes to adopting a different strategy, or thinking about, how do you, how do you change the business, you know, example, that unfortunately, was COVID, in terms that the I was, you know, I saw the COVID pandemic given my work in China, you know, ahead of time. I mean, I was quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle talking about when they closed Wuhan down. And, you know, I kind of explained that this is, this is an example what it could be, it's Wuhan today, but it could be other places, you know, in the future. And I was dealing with it for many weeks before it actually hit in the US. And therefore the, I think that's why the firm, you know, kind of pointed me the head of our, our Coronavirus Response Team, and the idea that we, you know, I knew what we'd have to be doing. I knew what, where it was coming based upon the fact that I'd seen it happen in China previously. So I think you have to use various data points. You have to figure out what's going on, but, but real, live information, and then, you know, be a little, you know, ask questions, think, listen, look and be skeptical. Because I don't, I don't think necessarily, you know, I think I have a pretty good gut. Sometimes I think my guts pretty good, but then, you know, sometimes it's, it's not, but I say it's best when I, you know, someone asked me, like, like, why do you know when there's a good client opportunity? And I said, you know, that's, that's, that's kind of where I, I am good at that, you know, in terms of my, my wife calls on my spidey sense, you know, I will, I will fly across the world to meet a client if I think this is this is a great opportunity,
Rob Bata:yeah, and I guess that's very much the kind of thing that I do, although I'm not sure that I can come as quickly to a conclusion as you seem to be able to do. But for me, a lot of what I do is actually tell people don't do what you're thinking about doing, because it's not right. And in fact, there's an article that I I get published and republish from time to time that I wrote some years ago titled 1515, ways to screw up your international expansion. And one of those is when you when you try to do it on the back of one or two lawyers or one or two clients. It's the worst thing that you can do. It's almost always bound to fail. And so I do get, I do get questions, of course, now the questions are coming in about India. Gee, it's going to be great to be able to go to it. Well, you know what? I happen to be a little bit of a naysayer on that, because I think that right now, although India is a fantastic market, and ultimately, it'll be great, but so far, what the what the Bar Council of India has published, I think it looks like there are lots of open questions, and it's going to take a long, long time, and there's going to have to be a good example is
Unknown:Korea. You know, how many US or European firms are making money in Korea? I don't know the
Rob Bata:answer. Yeah. Well, they've, they've, they've eased, they've eased the requirements to Korea. So a couple of firms recently have gone, gone in there, Asher's, then Watson, parle and Williams under, under a new kind of system. But yeah, it's hard to make money, of course. It's hard to make money in China too, but, but that's a whole different ballgame. But it's, it seems to me that in terms of strategy, what what you do, which is keeping your ear open and keeping your eyes open a lot, but not but, but not always your mouth. So in other words, just getting a lot of data points. I think that's really what an outside consultant to a law firm needs to do. They need to be able to understand what the firm's needs are, what the firm's goals are, what their aspirations are, and not just guess at it, not just look at it, look at their website, and find that they have the greatest culture in the world, and then they do this then and the other so
Unknown:it's an education, back to our original, original points. We said, you know, how, like, what's the role of non lawyers? It's like, you know, I don't have a practice, you know, in terms of, you know, whatever, whatever strategy the firm, like, I explained, I don't make the firm strategy I you know, I advise. I tell them, you know, this is, I love working for lockers, because it's, I work for the people that own the firm, and they make, they decide, they're the decider. I'm the executor, to some extent. And, you know, but it and I, but my livelihood is not dependent upon what strategy we take. Because, you know, in terms of, I don't mean I don't have an Indian practice, I don't have a, you know, whatever the strategy. So that gives me the benefit to say to people, this is what I think you should be doing. This is like, this is what makes sense, as opposed to, you know, thinking about, well, how is that going to impact my life, you know, the next, whereas I think partners say, Well, I have an insurance, you know, you know, insurance defense practice. And, you know, we're thinking about getting on the insurance defense business. And that means, like, Oh, great. That means I have to find another firm to to, you know, go after or, you know, switch my practice, or change something up. You know, I think having having someone like me who doesn't have a practice makes those kind of conversations, you know, easier to have, because, you know, I don't necessarily have that kind of skin of the game, but someone that has, you know, decade of or two, couple decades of building the legal pedigree,
Rob Bata:and I think that gives you a lot of freedom. And I think in many ways that So, again, that's a certain kind of similarity with with what I do. Because, yes, although my business is dependent on what my what my clients ultimately do at the same time, I don't personally have skin in the game and what you know, my clients can take my advice or leave my advice, and it's all the same. It's all the same to me. And of course, I appreciate working with clients, and I appreciate getting paid for what I do, but, you know, I'm a consultant, so, so it works out just fine.
Unknown:And I think there's a there's a there's a mentality the legal business. There's this herd mentality, the legal business that I think you guys, I'm sure, fight against, in terms of, everyone says, Okay, this is what we have to do. This is what the flavor of the month is. We need to push for. But the problem is, you know, like anything else, you know, if, if you do, everyone does the same thing, then you know, everybody looks exactly the same, everyone's operations, you're going to cut out what, what the advantages were for doing that. And so, how do you do things differently? My my former boss or former managing partner, Andrew Glen, sure. You know, he woke up one day or and started scrolling through all the the am law, 100 websites, and he realized at some point in time that he couldn't tell them apart, including our own. And he said, and he, you know, for better or worse, he said, I want something totally different. And so we went and we hired a, a, you know, consultant that didn't have nothing to do with websites and designer and everything else. And so for a couple years, we actually had a amazingly kind of very cutting edge website, you know, you know, we were in the right direction. I think some, some we're not as cutting edge as we were then. I think we have a great website and great brand and everything else. But, you know, we had a brief incident of going the different direction, which was, which was, was pretty cool. And we're continuing to try to do that. I think our new website is fantastic. I'm really excited about that. We used to be your website. But, you know, doing things differently, I think, is, is it is going to have to be brave in this business
Rob Bata:you do bravery is not, you know, in a partnership, being brave is not always the best thing, Partially, partially partially for good reasons. I mean, you know, it's a collaborative enterprise at its best, and so, so you don't want to be the outlier, but you do want to be somebody who, who brings good ideas to the table.
Unknown:And part of it like we decided that, you know, we jumped off the bandwagon of opening up office. Is all over the world because, you know, we decided that that wasn't necessarily our strongest suit, you know, that we didn't have to have offices and lots of places to have an international presence and do work there. And I, you know, I thought it's a lot harder. I think it's like, frankly, harder, you know, it's a lot of work for me to develop relationships with the best firms in these geographies. But it's a different approach. It's a different strategy, and it's something that we have, you know, there's pluses and minuses. We give up certain things to do that. But the idea is that we, you know, that we have decided that that's, you know, that's the approach we want to take. And, you know, trying to ruthlessly and rigorously executed. You know, takes discipline. You know, just like, just like being an Ironman triathlete, takes discipline. You have to work at it. You have to be, you know, constantly at it and thinking about it. And, you know, getting getting ready for it, and but it is, it is a strategy
Rob Bata:the global legal market, I think, isn't all about putting flags everywhere. In fact, there's one firm that has put flags everywhere, which I just think isn't really a firm anymore. It's a completely different kind of animal, but, but having said that, I think it's less about do you have offices here and there, or do you have a presence here or there, or are you able to work your relationships? I think it's about the belief in global globalization. And I think as long as we understand, no matter what the headwinds are, no matter what's happened, what happens, you know, with, you know, political points of view about globalism, or about trade wars and so on and so forth. I think the recognition that all business is ultimately global, and therefore you have to approach it in some way that in itself, requires creating a strategy. And you just described your firm strategy. And I think that's that's really, really important. Sometimes strategies change for for various reasons. The certainly, the COVID period saw a lot of people change their strategies, not necessarily for the better, sometimes for the better. In Asia, you know, there was a widespread sort of exodus from Hong Kong. Not a lot of people are going into China these days for all kinds of reasons, but. But the reality is, as long as you recognize the fact that you do need to serve your clients, a business firm doesn't have a single client, unless there may be a family law client that doesn't do business internationally. So am law 100 am law 200 NLJ 250 whatever every one of those firms is, in fact, International. It's a question of how you handle it, and you have a strategy I and I think it's exactly the people who deal with strategy that I deal with, it could be somebody like you. It can be a management committee. It could be a senior or partner, but it's somebody who thinks through these things. And that's what, that's what works. I
Unknown:would, I would think it would go even below the amla 200 I mean, every firm, yeah, because a lot of the referrals I get are, you know, more local firms that have an international issue that comes up. And, you know, part of my skill is able to keep them involved to some extent, you know, because I want them, you know, maybe you know, they have the relationship with the client. But if they now have some kind of international piece or some more sophisticated piece, they're not, you know, they're not, you know, able to do, you know, that's, that's kind of where, where my role comes in. And I've been pretty successful at working with, you know, much smaller firms that, you know, would not consider themselves being national but they now have an international problem or an international opportunity, right? Right? How do they? How do they deal with that? And it's by interfacing with folks like me.
Rob Bata:Yeah, that's key. Can I
Unknown:do before we break I do have a question for David, and could have talked about interfacing with people like you. What you do for your firm is you've been successful at it for many years. Is, is an exception in terms of the in terms of the wider, large law universe, there's not a lot of people. There's more every day. There's not a lot of people who are doing what you're doing and and I, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm wondering, you know, if you had your crystal ball, what what it looks like, what we're going to see in the next five years, about as much as I can ever look for. Worked, but five years in terms of the role that you have and where that how those roles are going to form in other firms, or if they're going to form, and if there's maybe a condition proceeding that needs to be there for roles like yours perform, I do see them as being essential. I do not believe that the that law firm growth can continue if we're, if we're relying entirely upon the partners to be the, the engine of business development within a firm. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you're going to see that and grow. I think there will be more industry specific. So I think they, you know, I think I'm a bit of an outlier, and that, I kind of came from more generalist, traditional law firm marketing background, and kind of morphed into this role. I think you'll see less of that, and you'll see more of people that who were doing business development, more generally in an industry, and are applying their relationships, their contacts with, you know, in a law firm environment, I think that the I think so I see, I'd see the growth will be kind of very, more industry focused. You'll see people that do that, you know, but again, there are challenges. It's not an easy role. I mean, I think the idea that you know, that you know, being in an environment, you're still, to some extent, a second class citizen, because you're not a lawyer. And I've worked with people in the past that find that to be impossible to overcome that challenge, that you know, that there's you know, even though you might be a lawyer, but once you, once you I'm sorry, guys, once you decide you're not practicing law anymore, you're like me. You're at the same, the same level. And that's a bit challenging, I think, the fact that, you know, at least in America, we can't share fees with non lawyers, so you don't necessarily have the column that they have. And I'd say a lot of sales people live and die by that. They want to see what, what money they brought in, and how they brought it in, things like that. The other part is that they have to be like, you know, you know, a lot of successful salespeople are really type A personalities, and they want to be the smartest person in the room. And, you know, I sometimes I explain to people, you know, I, I sometimes aspire to be the dumbest person in the room. Because if I'm bringing in, you know, the experts, the lawyers, they're the, they're the rock stars, you know, I might I might have the rock star hair and beard, but in the and the stones t shirt, but, you know, they're the smart ones. You know, my job is just to make sure that, you know, the everything keeps, keeps going, going forward. And you know, that's sometimes challenging. You have to keep your mouth shut. You have to, you know, you know, not opine on everything. And you know, let the let the people do their work. So I think the so there are some challenges. I think that it's not a it's not an easy job. It's not something you can go directly from industry into the law firm environment. But I think it's as, you know, we see, we have some successful examples, and we'll have more of them, but I do see them more around, you know, either industries or ecosystems or things like that, much less, you know, kind of more generalist like I am.
Rob Bata:Yeah, I think that you are, in fact, unique in many ways. And I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about the hairstyle. What you do is, is, actually, I think, very rare and and I, you know, I know a lot of people in the business who do what you do, but but don't do what you do. And so that's why I said it's particularly a pleasure that we've been able to have this time with you and then to get a better understanding of how you work and how you interact with, with, with other non lawyer executives and and how you see the, how you approach the the international legal market, and we, I think, I think
Unknown:there's a lot of opportunity. I think that you know, as you know every I think every firm has to figure out what their approach to handling the globe is, you know, do they want to open up offices? And if so, where sometimes I think that's a good idea. They should open offices if there's if it makes sense to do so. Do they want to be involved with a with a network, you know? So, like, we're involved. We've been involved for the last 24 years with the terralex network. And, you know, we're very involved in that. Love it. You know, lots of good relationship, but it's not, it's not our only global strategy. And, or do you want to develop your own network, your own kind of best friends network, and, and maybe all those things are not mutually exclusive. You can, you can have a belong to network, have your own network, or have offices. We do some of that. So I think the idea is that, but, but kind of making that work, I think requires, like, you know, folks like you all to help firms think through that, and, you know, recognize, like, what works, what doesn't work. You know, should we have a marine structure? Should we have, you know, how should we deal with this, and then kind of ironing out some. The, you know, what's the compensation issues, you know? Why should we be thinking about this, or in the, you know, the nitty gritty of, like, where, where we should open up? I get a lot of questions like, why don't we have an office in Germany? And I explained, well, where in Germany would you like to, I guess, to open an office? Because I can give you a few, I can give you a few reasons why? No, but I'm saying, like, you know, it's not like, you know France, you know, where Paris is kind of a natural place, if you your international firm and you're going to France, you know Paris, you know, probably makes less sense. Or England, London, you know, Germany is a more complex and, you know, economy, there's lots of different, you know, all the different cities there have different industrial focuses and economic focuses and things like that. And
Rob Bata:you know, it's not, in fact, if you want to be in Germany, you have to be in at least two cities. There's just no getting around that. So that's, that's a whole other complication, which is why so many foreign firms really don't do very well in Germany. Some, some have succeeded, but it's, it's difficult, but you're right. They're all all those nitty gritty issues to to think through, and that's why, that's why there are experts in house as well as outside consultants. That's and
Unknown:they need folks like, you know, to help them glue, put it together. It's one thing just to open up an output or start a practice or whatever. I think that the fact of, you know, putting the glue together and making it all work, I think is really challenging, because I work with a lot of firms that, you know, you know, essentially, they're a firm, but you know, their international offices and their international relationships do not interconnect with, you know, each one, and frankly, sometimes I feel like I know them better than they know themselves.
Rob Bata:Yep, certainly, certainly happens with quite a few firms. The idea of being Lone Rangers out there and not really connected to headquarters of the rest of it, and vice versa, where people feel so we have an office in Kazakhstan, but I don't even know about them. Why didn't anybody tell me? How are you gonna sell that?
Unknown:Like I said, there are ways to make referrals, and there are ways to make referrals. So you can say, Yes, we have an office in Kazakh they do oil and gas, and they're fantastic. And I can introduce you to a Sergey who heads up that office. And you know, he's he's really a terrific guy. He went to school in Oxford, so his English skills are terrific. And, you know, try set up the Zoom call tomorrow.
Rob Bata:Exactly. That's the way to go. We learned a lot from you.
Unknown:David, thank you, David, thank you. Indeed. You.