GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
Meet your hosts
In this pilot podcast of GMT Rob and Murray discuss some of the basics regarding how and whether a firm should expand internationally. Including key considerations such as experience in a given geography, client needs, communications strategy, and when to bring the executive team into the discussion (spoiler alert...early.) And listen for Bata's Best Bet, Rob's hot take on the newest intel on global law firm expansion.
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded law firm leaders with your host. Robert Bata, founder and principal of warwood Place legal LLC and Murray Coffey, founder of M Coffey LLC, this podcast is designed to answer some nuts and bolts questions, provide best practices and even share a few hard won lessons about how, when and why to expand your firm's global presence. The audience we serve are those with the responsibility for growing their firms through international expansion, whether you're a managing partner, executive committee member or rising partner with your eye on gaining greater legal access to global markets for legal services. We hope our podcast provides you advice, counsel, and maybe even a few challenges to preconceived notions for just what makes a global expansion necessary and how to make it successful. And now a little bit about our hosts, I'm very happy to introduce to you Robert Rob Bata, who for over a decade has exclusively focused on formulating and implementing cross border expansion strategies for leading law firms of all sizes in a wide array of markets. Prior to founding war workplace, Rob practiced for more than 30 years as a cross border mergers and acquisitions partner at prominent firms including Sullivan and Cromwell, Mayor Brown and salons, now known as Dentons, Rob was among the first lawyers to establish a successful practice in many of Europe's emerging economies. During his legal career, he established and managed offices in London, throughout Europe and in China. Rob's consulting practice is notable for his full cycle approach to advising his client. Rob invests significant time with his clients to establish a well reasoned strategy for global growth where appropriate, correlating the firm's culture, practice, aspirations and client needs against current and foreseeable geopolitical, economic and social trends. Rob's record of success is legend, and he has become one of the most sought after consultants in the sector.
Rob Bata:Thank you, Murray. That's a very kind introduction. Murray Coffey is an attorney with over 30 years of experience. He began his career in the courtroom crucible of the Cook County Public Defender's Office. For the last 20 years, Murray has served in marketing and business development roles, including 13 years as the CMO for a number of am law, 100 law firms during his tenure, each of the firms with which he worked expanded domestically and globally, often during exceedingly challenging circumstances such as the post Lehman Brothers financial meltdown and recession, the roller coaster ride of global energy prices, a pandemic, Brexit and natural disasters, including hurricanes and earthquakes. Through it all, the firms he served prospered and grew. Murray has developed marketing and business development strategies that are both focused on promoting and growing the enterprise while adapting a localized approach for each market, especially in business centers such as Mexico City, Shanghai, London and Rio de Janeiro, to name a few, Murray is currently advising leadership partners of highly innovative law firms on how best to grow and market their services. He also maintains a pro bono practice representing global not for profits in the Dallas Fort Worth region. Murray has traveled extensively and finds emerging markets to be of keen interest. Thank
Unknown:you, Rob. Why don't we go ahead and dig in? You?
Rob Bata:Murray. So the reason Murray and I decided to have a podcast like this is we felt that there was a need to get a little bit more information out there about how strategy works in in a concrete sense, on a day to day basis. That doesn't mean that we're going to focus on the day to day, but what we're really focusing on is the interplay of strategic advice with sound messaging practices, and how that interplay, how that teamwork, really contributes to a successful cross border law
Unknown:firm merger. Yeah. And I think, oh, go ahead, Rob.
Rob Bata:Sorry, we won't just be talking about mergers necessarily. We'll be talking about strategy. We're gonna try to talk about strategy without the buzzwords, without the consulting buzzwords. But also given that Murray and I have experience in having worked together on a significant cross border merger, and we've known each other for a long time, and we respect each other's talents, we felt that it would be really good to get across the idea of how these things work in a practical way. So. So that people who watch this podcast, the many hundreds we hope to attract, will 1000s come up from understanding some of the practical steps that need to be taken to make it successful. And
Unknown:I think a key key concept here, Rob is the idea of teamwork, and we're going to talk in this podcast and others about what the team how you should be thinking about the team, because it's not in a law firm setting, oftentimes, not always, and we'll talk about the not always part, probably more than the oftentimes part, but oftentimes the professional staff are among, among the the last to know that the merger or the or the lift out, or however you want to talk about, about the the the action happens. So we're also going to talk about when to bring folks in earlier than you might think. And as Rob said, we worked on on a pretty significant merger a number of years ago, and and I think we, I think we developed some best practices through that. So Rob, you want to just kind of continue with taking us through some of the some of the ideas on the why you do this?
Rob Bata:Well, why one does this? Let's start with why I do what I do, and then we can talk about why a law firm might want to do what they do, and how that implicates my work, and then ultimately, how it implicates what what you do. As Murray said in the introduction, I practiced for many, many years with a number of big firms, and when I retired from that, I thought that law firms could use a better understanding of international markets and how to break into international markets, either through merger or through Greenfield or through alliances or a number of other ways, including just internationalizing one's domestic practices. So having now been at this for about 12 years with workplace legal, I think that I have a couple of things that I may be able to say of value on the subject normally what happens is the usual scenario that I find, is that a law firm is thinking about strategies, thinking about what are we going to do in the next three years, next five years? And very often, what comes up, especially with larger law firms and a broad variety of practices is, should we be more international? Is there a place to where we should be that we aren't sometimes the question is, how are we doing in a particular place where we are? Should we get the heck out of there? Because it's terrible and so, so it can be a number of different things, but that's the time when I usually get called in. Sometimes I don't get called in, but I will call up a contact of mine at a law firm and say, you know, you guys are doing really fantastically, but your practice would be greatly enhanced if you had an office in x or if you did this in a particular region, or if you paid more attention to that particular region or a country. So that's how it comes about, and the ordinary scenario, and this is where I want to get to this interplay that we were talking about earlier, and where Murray comes in, and where his role is so important, and the role of the person who is the CMO or or similar role is so important, and normally what happens is a person like me will be talking to the managing partner, senior partner, management committee, or maybe even a strategy committee. In other words, a partner led exercise within the firm, and I will be speaking to them. And it's only really recently that people have begun to realize that that circle needs to be expanded a little bit, and that you need to involve the non lawyer, or the non practicing lawyer, executives of the firm in order to formulate, to disseminate and to ultimately execute strategy. So I find, and I have found in my work over the past number of years that having the involvement of the executive team is really, really crucial. And I think that, Murray, you can address that because you you've seen the point at which internally, people turn to you and say, okay, Murray, how do we go about this? And what do we need to know? What do we need to know? And what can you tell us now? About what, what this outside guy is telling us about strategy and what we ought to be doing. And
Unknown:I think that that the the the idea of sort of expanding that circle and expanding it earlier is is the right one. And I've been in both situations where, you know, it just kind of gets dropped on your lap. And you are whether it's a domestic opening, a domestic office, bringing in a bringing in a large group, or an international cross border situation, gets dropped in your lap, and you can't do your best job when it's just dropped in your lap. These are very complicated. And Rob, I know you, you're very you're very aware of this, the complicated aspects of these kinds of transactions. And it's not just complicated because, you know, there's there's business, there's complex business issues at play. There are, but you're also in a partnership setting. You're also in a setting in which you have sort of all the eyes on you, and we know what happens sometimes, when, when, when the message gets out before the firm is ready to have it get out, and all those eyes are on you, and doesn't happen that looks bad for both both firms. So what, what I have worked on with leadership at firms that I've worked with is to say, hey, you know what? The earlier we can get in, the better the job that we can do, and we can help you be more informed about that, because we take those of us who are on the growth side, and I hope that you know any CMOS that are listening to this, or heads of business development that might be listening to this, you are, you are part of the growth equation for your firm, and you should be thinking about about that, your role in that and in that role you need to, you need to make sure that you're thinking very clearly about how you assist the firm and understanding what this growth will mean. So you're, you should be looking at the client base with with, with it, with, with, with more detail and at a greater sort of granular level. And maybe the partners are, or the or the managing partner is, is doing and really understanding, sort of where the source of volume is. And you know, you're not going to be able to pull the plug on an international expansion if it needs to have the plug pulled, but you can certainly, you can certainly create, create enough questions so that people can be asking the right questions about, let
Rob Bata:me, let me just go back, because you mentioned a very important word here, which is, which is clients. And after all, that's what, that's what drives law firms, and that's what law firms ought to be paying attention to. More than anything else, more than geography, more than how many foosball tables you get in your rec room. It's clients, and we know that. So I simplified things earlier on when I said, you know, I'll approach a firm and say, shouldn't you be doing x? Or a firm approaches me and says, we're thinking about x before those approaches happen, both sides do a great deal of analysis. I follow trends in around the globe about what law firms are doing, what specific practices are doing, where economies are headed, what the geopolitics are that may drive the direction of the dollar, if you will, one way or another. So there's a good deal of analytical thinking, first, I think, on both sides, on the law firm side and on the on the consultant side. But where those really meet is clients. So understanding what your clients want, what your clients need, and how best to serve them, and where best to serve them, that comes together with real consultation. And that's where I also think what you were saying, Murray, is so important that you're looking at those client lists, and you're looking at client performance, you're looking at perhaps client teams and the message that they've been putting out thanks to your team, to their clients, and understanding how you can advise Law Firm leadership about what may be suitable for clients and what may not be, what may work and what may not work. And I think that that's really key, because it comes down to that ultimately, if, if a if an expansion is just a vanity project, or if it only serves a very small group of partners, or if, for some reason it's done just because everybody else is doing it. It's not going to work. It only works if the firm's clientele, by and large, is going to understand that this is good for them, and of course, for them to understand that other. Then, of course, the lawyers talking to their clients and explaining it. The message has to come from you. The message has to come from the people who really understand how to deliver a message. But before you get there, there's internal messaging. So before you get to that point, you need to be able to work with the people you know, with the partners that you work with and that you work for, and be able to say to them, Look, here is why this would work. But more important, here's how we explain why this would work. And by the way, if you were skeptical, here are some of the reasons that you might consider why this actually was a good idea.
Unknown:Yeah. And as a as a communications professional, which is part of part of my, my job, it really is sort of burrowing into the the reasoning for this and and being able to help the management team internally express it in a way that is consistent with firm culture, and also provide the partners with tools to talk to their clients about it, or to or to, you know, ping their clients a little bit and find out if this would matter to them and and, you know, unfortunately, not, not part, I shouldn't say unfortunately, fortunately, partners are getting better and better about talking about the business of the firm with their clients, because the clients actually do care about the business of your firm, their business people, and so they want to know that you're thinking very rationally and reasonably about your business and why you're doing what you're doing. But the the the the International, international growth doesn't mean that you suddenly have two of every everybody it. It means that you may have a couple of extra hands on deck. Once, the once the the merger happens, but generally speaking, it means that the that the team that has been working with, working and running the firm day to day, has additional responsibilities. And that's a there's communications that have to be, you know, that have to be framed around that very carefully, because it's, it is, it is additional work. Those of us who enjoy growth say that's good work. That's great work. We like to we like to engage in that. That's not the case for everybody in the firm, even the other even the other lawyers at the firm. So there is, there's a lot of consideration on the internal messaging, and then there's also the external can. The external happens once, the once that, once the the final decision has been made to pursue this. Not the paper. The ink is not dry on the on the merger papers yet, but that, that decision is, we're going to do this. This is, this is going to happen. That's when my team should be. They should have already been fully engaged, but now we should really be deep into it, thinking through how we're going to communicate this in the marketplace, which I have to say, you know, working with Rob on that, on that merger that he and I worked on. Unlike other people in Rob's position, Rob was at the table for those discussions as well. Rob was weighing in, Rob, you know, not micromanaging it by in stretch of the imagination, but helping in a in a very important way, to to couch the to help couch the messaging. And the earlier we were able to do that, the again, the better job that we can do, and the more flexible we can be. And that's a key to the to communications about, especially the external communications about, about growth in a merger. And you know, Robert, you'll remember the the incidents that happened around that, that that merger that we were talking about.
Rob Bata:Yes, of course. So and we'll, we'll have a little bit more detail on that in a minute, but I just, I want to mention one thing that's important. From what you said for a consultant, what's really important is to believe in his or her recommendations and and if you do, if you really feel that you've given the right advice and it's being executed as it should be, then you should believe in helping to move it forward, even after the papers have been signed, even after everybody's shaking hands, Even after the initial press releases have gone out. You you want to be there to make sure that it's going right. That's just a little bit of consulting. Best practice. I've never walked away from a situation like that where two parties agreed to. Do something together, and I thought my work was not I've always felt that my work continues until everyone's satisfied, that not only has some particular transaction been agreed, but it's actually rolling down the highway. So I think that that's an important point. Now it's true, the transaction Murray is referring to, happened to be right around the time that Brexit was was voted in,
Unknown:like the week of rob the week, it was the week
Rob Bata:off. And, you know, I would say 50% of the people in the world would have thought that that was the worst time to do a merger, and the other 50% in the world might have maybe scratched their head about it, but I think we were able to construct a message with Murray, and Murray got that out there very effectively, that the this merger, in fact, works not only on its own merits, but despite what obstacles Brexit might throw up and in fact, also create certain advantages that that a non Brexit situation might not even have had. So that was quick and nimble thinking, and it was extremely well done. And it's just one of those things we always hope that there isn't some sort of horrible disaster right around the time mergers announced. But that happened to want to be one of those situations where you had to act very, very fast and and make lemonade out of a lemon, if you will. And
Unknown:please go ahead, Murray. And the point here is that that we have that flexibility, because we were brought in early into into the discussions I personally and my team had already had relationships with the partners on the on the on the the partners at the firm we were acquiring with their leadership had had good, you know, good relationships that were going back and forth. We were all pretty well versed in why we're doing this, and what it was going to bring to the to the clients. We had a, we had a, you know, we had a we had an on site, you know, on the ground agency that we were working with, who we brought in very early, and they were able to pivot the the message, but the the the point being, we were, we were only able to exercise that level of flexibility because we had, we had a deep knowledge of the of the engagement, a deep knowledge of the transaction at a and a and a, you know, budding relationships with people on on both sides of the Atlantic on that one, and
Rob Bata:it ultimately it all made sense. And of course, that's remained a very successful law. Oh yeah, I'm gonna ask you a tough question. One of the things that you find I've written an article that gets republished from time to time, that's titled 15 ways to screw up your international merger. And one of the things I talk about is what drives an international merger if, let's say it's one partner or small group of partners who believe that their practice would benefit without really regard to anybody else, but their practice would benefit if you were in country X or region y. But it actually isn't that great. It's not that important for the firm, and it might be additional management resource wasted and so forth. How? How does one deal with the sort of the kind of enthusiast who really wants to be somewhere where the firm isn't but it doesn't make the best sense is that the kind of situation where you and and people in your position can actually play their role.
Unknown:The way that we play a role there, Rob is, if that partner is really pursuing work in that geography, and maybe they're successful in that geography, we'll find ways to support them and support them on the ground. So we might find, we might find on the ground groups that we can work with. We I've done this in Mexico City. I've done this in in in, you know, Rio, where we, where we had an office for a while, where, where you've where you you have people. And this is, this is the important thing. This is why you need. To need to really think this stuff through. You need to, you need to help that partner localize their messaging and localize what they're doing and how they're approaching the market. And oftentimes they'll have some relationships there, but they won't have, they won't have business support relationships there. And I'm not talking about secretarial support or or drivers or things like that, but, people who can be Sherpas and translators. And when I say translator, I don't mean language, but I mean business translators with these lawyers, because you know you that that might, it might turn into, it might turn into an office at some point. So you, you're you, you're also sort of laying the, laying the groundwork that you know, let's see what we can do in this jurisdiction, and maybe we, maybe we do now, you know, I had partners that I worked with who were doing a lot of transactions, oil and gas transactions in Africa, and there just wasn't, we just weren't going to open an office In West Africa, and they weren't. They weren't, they weren't advocating that we opened an office in West Africa, but we did find ways for them to get out and market on the ground, you know, and not just and not just in, not just in, you know, going to see their clients, etc, but, but, you know, finding conferences that are related to, you know, development in West Africa, and finding, finding journals where they could, they could write, really, you know, some basic blocking and tackling. But it's it. It does it. Oftentimes can sort of quiet down that immediate, you know, knee jerk reaction of we need to have an office on the ground in Mali
Rob Bata:so you can, so you can. So basically you you've been able to sort of gently steer them away from kind of world reading ambition, but at the same time, we're able to persuade them that there are other ways of of expanding, that that their ability to project their footprint, their profile, their presence, without necessarily going going all the way by acquiring an office or open in Greenfield
Unknown:and making sure that we have the budget and the management support we do. You do need that as well, as long as the management understands that the budget that you're going to be that you're asking for, and it usually is not budget that you anticipated, is going to be used carefully and and is going to be managed carefully. You can usually get that, especially if you've got a partner who's really, really needs, really says, Hey, we've got some opportunities here. I got to be on the ground. I got to join these organizations, I've got to get a leadership position, etc. So those are and oftentimes I've had, I've, you know, more than once I've had a managing partner come and say, hey, you know this partner really wants to, really wants to burrow into this particular area. Can you give some special resources to this person for a limited amount of time to see what we can, what we can come up with. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, but, but, but, you know, you learn pretty quickly that no is not a word that that that you use often in a law firm, there's different there's artful ways of saying no. That could be a whole podcast in and of itself. Rob, yes,
Rob Bata:it's artful persuasion. Is, is, is quite an important talent. I think that, I think we've now laid the groundwork for what it is that we're trying to convey in this podcast. We've ranged a little bit back and forth and future podcasts, we're going to continue to talk about the mechanics. Also, we'll have some guests on Murray. You and I have talked about having people from for example, from outside PR or lawyers who handle partnership mergers and so forth. We'll be announcing those. But I think that, for starters, we've probably managed to stake out some decent ground for the understanding of what the interplay is between the outside consultant and the in house, non lawyer, executive. And I think if you have something else on that, chances are maybe we should. We should keep that for another podcast. Yeah,
Unknown:I agree. And I, you know, I think we've, we've, we've laid that groundwork. What we haven't done, though, Rob is what will be my favorite part of these podcasts, and that's Bata best bet, and so and so. This is, this is a ROB Bata. Rob Bata, 50,000 foot view on, on, sort of where you, where, where you, where you might be thinking about putting your your next office or group of lawyers or lift out, or whatever it might be. So Rob, and we'll have a trumpet drill at some point, Rob, I promise you. But Rob, what's your best bet?
Rob Bata:Well, my best bet, and, and I. Think my best bet may not always be about where it might be about just what's happening, but my best bet right now, I have to say, is Singapore is an extremely vibrant economic center. Over the past couple of years, while I've seen and worked with some of eight to 10 law firms opening up offices in Singapore. Some law firms have expanded dramatically. Look, Singapore is is first of all, a hub for Southeast Asia, so and really even reaching into China. Second, Singapore is now becoming a hedge against Hong Kong, where circumstances have become a little bit difficult, although that may be changing, but I do think it's a hedge. Singapore has an extraordinarily lively Investment Fund, so private equity, private wealth, maritime insurance and and, of course, oil and gas energy and LNG practice, not to mention arbitration and litigation with their special International Commercial Court and their arbitration center. So my bet for now is if, if we're thinking about what makes sense, and remember, it's not for everyone, but if you're in an appropriate practice area, Singapore is is a must, certainly for the next few years. And just to, just to rattle off a couple of names, just practically this quarter, or the past two quarters, Greenberg, traurig, Goodwin, Proctor, the Spanish firm Perez York, and English firm Charles Russell speech leads, which is which is a private wealth specialist, have all opened offices just very recently. Mayor Brown, my friends there just recently, entered into an important alliance there. They already had an office, but the Alliance allows them to practice Singaporean law. So it is hot, it's great. It's literally hot, but it's, it's, it's an excellent place, and it's a place that welcomes expatriates as well. That's my
Unknown:and it's, yeah, you're right, right on the equator. So it's, it's always hot there. And it's a it's also just a great place to visit. Really remarkable when, when you get to Singapore and see what, what they've done with what it was essentially a rock, but it's certainly, certainly has matured substantially in those years, in the ensuing years. Well, Rob, I want to thank everybody who's tuned in. And I want to thank you for for for your brilliant idea of getting this podcast off the ground and and I look forward to getting our next, our next podcast teed up and and out into the out into the wild.
Rob Bata:And thank you, Murray, for being a great partner in this podcast. You