2nd Season Premiere of GMT with Special Guest Gus Sellitto Founder of Reputation and Media Powerhouse Byfield Consultancy

Welcome to Season Two of GMT! A heartfelt thank you to all of our listeners. We're excited to announce that we have a jam-packed lineup of episodes coming your way in 2024. Kicking off our new season, we're thrilled to have Gus Sellitto, Founder of Byfield Consultancy, join us. Gus and his firm specialize in proactive reputation counsel for law firm leaders worldwide. In today's episode, you'll discover why a firm's reputation needs to be guarded, promoted, and protected all at once. Given our current media landscape, managing a firm's reputation is more crucial and challenging than ever. Controlling the narrative is increasingly seen as a vital part of law firms' strategic planning. Gus will highlight the major challenges law firms face in managing their reputation globally. In Part Two, we'll delve deeper into geopolitics' role and how the global marketplace influences firms' perceptions both externally and internally.

For more information contact:
Gus Sellitto
Rob Bata
Murray Coffey

Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com

Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded law firm leaders with your host. Robert Bata, principal of Warwick place legal and Murray Coffey, principal of M Coffey, between them, Rob and Murray have about three quarters of a century's experience working with some of the most notable law firms on the planet. This podcast is designed to help those law firm leaders tasked with growth make great decisions about whether and how to implement cross border expansion for their firms and what it takes to succeed. And now. Rob Bata,

Rob Bata: 0:45

hello everybody. This is Robert Bata, and I'm here with my podcast partner, Murray Coffey, hello everyone. GMT, and we're very, very lucky today to have as our guest Gus salito. Gus salito is the founder of Byfield consultancy, which is a reputation counsel to law firms professional service organizations and also many companies and individuals and helping them when they face reputational risk. And we're going to talk about what that all means. Gus is also, in addition to being a very good friend of mine, somebody I've known for a long time, He's based in London. So welcome Gus. And I guess I'd like to kick off by by asking you, you know What? What? What is reputation management, really, and, and how does it come about that that you are sought out by your clients, so and, and, and how do you deal with all that? But that's, that's a very big question about your entire work day. But I'd like to have an understanding so that we have a distinction between, say, PR and marketing and reputation management and risk and so forth.

Gus Sellitto: 2:07

Well, thank you, Robert. Great to be here on the on the podcast with you at Murray, and really looking forward to our conversation. And this question is one that I'm very happy to answer. I think reputation management, PR, reputation management communications is kind of the wrap around, if you like, to PR branding activity, marketing activity. It's it's the way an organization or individual is perceived and how that perception is is managed. And that perception can be by the media, it can be by internal stakeholders. It can be by the regulator. It can be by your people. It can be by a number of influential bodies or organizations or individuals that you care about how they see you. And when we look at public relations and marketing and business development, they're all brand building exercises around promoting building a positive perception of an organization or an individual or a law firm. And that reputation management piece is, is how you manage that on an ongoing basis. When we talk about reputation management, reputation management PR, it's often has a sort of a, maybe a negative aspect to it, ie, reputation is being damaged, or there's potential for it to be damaged in some way. And that's when we go into the realms of crisis, PR, issues, management, litigation, communications. But broadly, reputation management is, is about managing the way an organization or an individual is perceived by your key the people that the people and organizations you care about most. When it comes to reputation management, PR, in terms of the more difficult areas that we're going to talk about, some of those on this podcast this afternoon. It's any organization faces risk, and that risk has been heightened by the global business environment that we all operate in as businesses, the the increasing globalization of regulation as well cross border regulation, laws and customs in local geographies that impact how a global brand is seen, how a global law firm is seen, the increasing complexity of doing business in New jurisdictions, and all of these things taken together with the increasing glare of a bigger media spotlight, not just traditional print, broadcast Media, but also the media that we have on our phones now every day, social media, Instagram, Tiktok, this is 24 hour news that we have at our fingertips. And so you can see that as the regulatory and business environment has become much more complex that needs to manage reputation has become more. Important and more complex. And with any risk comes any business risk comes litigation risk comes risk to being under the glare of a media spotlight, and therefore that that whole reputation management piece and how it's handled globally and locally becomes even more important.

Unknown: 5:19

You know, because quick, you know question on this, you know, the the, I'll probably butcher this, but I think one of my favorite Oscar Wilde quotes is, you know, the, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, right? And, and so, you know, we're Yes, we hear about this 24 hour news cycle. We hear about the glare of media, but there's also the there's also, then I've experienced this, the sort of, the how hard it is to to maintain the reputation, not even in a crisis stat situation, but in a in a just just staying sort of front of mind, and and I, you know, I know that reputation management is not just a is not just, it doesn't just it's not just the safety net for the reputation for the organization, but also pushing it forward. And maybe you can talk a little bit about how you're working with clients, especially on the professional services side, where there is just a lot of churn going on right now in staying front of mind, how they keep that reputation, that they've earned that good reputation, how they, how they continue to move it forward, how they, how they, how they, you know, don't fall into the category of not being talked about.

Gus Sellitto: 6:33

Well, we're all Murray. We all work in professional services and have a specialism in the legal sector. And certainly in the 25 years that I've worked with law firms, the way they conduct themselves as corporate entity has competent corporate entities has changed hugely, and the way they've professionalized their corporate communications and the investments they've made communications, you'll you'll both be very aware of this. You know, if you walk into a top 100 UK law firm or a top 100 am law firm, every single one of them now will have a corporate communications manager or director, they'll have a business development director, they'll have a marketing director. And that wasn't the case 1520, years ago, and I think the way that corporate businesses have grown and developed, we're now seeing that we've seen that much, much more in professional services and those teams, those internal teams, who've become very experienced and very talented over the years. It's competition is fierce. I'm always asked by clients, you know, how do we differentiate ourselves as a law firm? Essentially, we're offering the same kinds of services to similar clients, and we're all competing for space, and our pricing is similar, and profile and reputation are two key elements in how you try and get some white space for yourself in a very crowded market. So having coordinated communication campaigns thought leadership, you know, we've all seen this develop hugely, and the market, even for things like thought leadership and reports, has become quite crowded, and seeing differentiation firms doing it really, really well, is when you really notice that, but the way we consume information, the way we can consume advice, ultimately, law firms are selling their professionalism, their expertise, their knowledge, their people, and therefore making sure that that's communicated to the people who matter most, the GCS, the C suite, the individuals that they're acting for. Competition is fierce out there, so you have to be communicating regularly. You have to be coming up with original and innovative campaigns to help you stand out a little bit more. And you have to be promoting your people as experts for the reasons that their clients hire them. And that can be a practice area level. It can be an industry and sector area level. It can be and this is, this is an area that we've seen as well law firms being more than or lawyers being seen them more than being technically excellent, you need to be able to really good knowledge of your clients, industry and sector, and producing really good content and campaigns that show your clients you've gone the extra mile. Is, is does give you the ability to stand out a little bit. And this is where, I think, where we talk about profile, raising, PR and reputation. It becomes really, really important,

Rob Bata: 9:43

yeah, and that's, and you mentioned how intensely competitive it is, and, and what you're describing is a very difficult job, and, and you obviously do that well, but let me take it. Let me zoom out a little bit more. So Murray had a quote, so I'm going to try to butcher another quote, which is the Shakespeare quote. First first thing, let's kill all the lawyers. So law firms generally, or lawyers generally, have had, let's say, an interesting reputation through the ages. But but the reality is that in the business world, of course, that wasn't the case. But until fairly recently, law firms were not the subject of general discussion in the world. People didn't know law firms by name. People didn't talk about didn't hear about lawyer salaries or how much young people were being paid they didn't hear about whom they represented. All of that. Today you have a global arena in which many law firms actually are very well known household names, maybe not to every, every person in the street, but but much, much better known and they acquire certain reputations. Some are criticized for representing certain politicians. Some are criticized for being involved in helping to pick US Supreme Court justices. Some are criticized because they represent oil companies in terms of that bigger picture, leaving aside how you communicate with those very important constituents, the clients, the internal teams, the potential recruits, potential lateral acquisitions and so forth. How does, how does reputation manage? How has reputation management changed over the past few years, in terms of seeing law firms from that bigger that, that more universal type of picture, law firms either as crusaders for the good, let's say, let's say, you know, public interest law firms versus say, corporate law firms, which are really our clients, and then which, which we know, do a world of good, but also are often criticized in one way or another, depending on What people's perspectives are. How, how, how does, how does that get handled? And let me just add this. There have been both in the US and the UK, criticisms of lawyers. You had the famous case in in in the UK with a minister talking about lefty lawyers this and that you've got similar sorts of things going on in the US, in other words, where the whole function of the legal industry has been somewhat under attack, as opposed to what had always been a universally accepted notion that everybody deserves to be represented. I think has been sort of universally accepted everybody deserves representation, whether you're a murderer or a private equity company. How have how have you seen that shift, and how have you responded to that, that those kinds of challenges? Well,

Gus Sellitto: 13:27

I take you back to your quote, your Shakespeare quote, that you know, Shakespeare killed all the lawyers. So that perception of lawyers being negative, shall we say, is quite an age old perception. I think it goes back to Murray's point. You know, when we talk about reputation management and the huge job that law firms have done in raising their profiles. That you know now if you mention a law firm, it is, are they? Are they brands? Well, there are a few law firms we can mention that are seen as brands and that people would recognize immediately, if, if you mention that that law firm's name. And so with that, with that brand recognition, comes additional scrutiny. And I think the it's not just law firms. We've seen this, as I said, as the regulatory environment has has become much more complex, and the globalization of business and doing business globally. It means we're dealing with different cultures, different customs. We're seeing this now with law firms opening in Saudi Arabia, for example, and then their commitments lgt LGBTQ plus, for example. And the media is really looking at that quite closely. So I think there's no easy answer here, Robert and law firms the right to representation. Certain law firms will take certain stances in terms of clients they will and won't act for. But if you look at, for example, polluting clients, there's a question there, where do you just stop acting for those clients? Or do you. Of those clients go on a journey so that they become cleaner? And that's that's a question that's going to divide a lot of opinion, particularly with the younger generation of lawyers coming through, who do have more sort of they want, they want their organizations to be seen, to be acting in a certain way. So I don't think there were any easy answers to this, but it comes down to the law firm and its kind of broad positioning in the market, the kinds of clients it acts for, and being honest and transparent about those those areas that it acts in, and making sure that its communications are consistent across offices and across jurisdictions. And as I say, that's not always an easy balancing act, but having a certain level of I mean, we all now have law firms. All will have values and principles that they adhere to. They will have purpose statements and making sure that as much as possible they are adhering to what they're saying publicly, but realizing that there are gray areas and difficulties, where you have law firms operating globally for companies that generally can have a bad public image or a tarnish reputation, but that you are acting for those companies, but you're being clear about some of where your your your sort of boundaries lie in terms of the kinds of clients you will and won't take on. I mean, clearly we saw this when law firms closed down their operations in in Russia following the war in Ukraine. Obviously that was followed by sanctions which prevented you from acting for those clients. But it's those kind of big geopolitical, geopolitical issues that comes before where law firms do have to take more of a determined response. But some of these gray areas where law firms are operating in Saudi or they're acting for big polluters who are going on a journey to become clearer, those are difficult areas to navigate for any business.

Rob Bata: 17:02

Yeah, that's, that's, that's very insightful, and, and, and I think it's certainly correct that this is, it's become more difficult to to do those things. And you're right that it's perhaps part of the job of the outside consultant or the reputation management consultant to to help them on what you describe as the journey to become perhaps more responsible citizens, or whatever the case, depending on your perspective, I want to ask you before we get to the geopolitical types of risks, I wanted to ask you about the growth of class actions, or sometimes in Europe, that's known as collective redress and so forth. America has perfected the the the class action model, but also the sort of personal injury and kind of plaintive practice, and without, without putting any value judgment on on class actions, I I'd be interested in your sense of, how did that come about, that there's so much more of that going on right now in the UK and in Europe and and how are, how are the reputations of the firms defending these class actions affected by that development?

Gus Sellitto: 18:37

It's a huge area of development here in Europe right now, Robert, and that's because we've got legislation across Europe, which is this consumer redress directive, and even though now UK is outside of the EU, we still have our own class action system, which is developing and is probably a more advanced stage of many of our European cousins. It's really interesting, because I was dealing with class actions, where you would have a representative group, it would be US law firms that were coming to the UK to look for class members who were affected, because they had a link back to a listing, a company that was listed in the US. So it's, it's not new in terms of class actions of UK companies and entities and pension funds being party to class actions that are taking place back in the States. But very much it's, it's the it's the US model that we're now seeing here, with all of the criticisms and benefits that we're seeing the compensation system is very different in the US. But as you two know much better than I do, there's been a huge benefit of class actions, a huge sort of public good perception of class actions in being able to offer access to justice. But that has come with a lot. Be which has said, you know, this is ambulance chasing. The damages are ridiculous. There are spurious claims being brought. So that that reputation management of the claimant and defendant, the plaintiff bar in the US has been something that I've watched very, very closely over the years, and the development of the third party funding industry, which, again, we've seen develop from the US, and is now firmly established here in the UK, certainly, and more, more and more so in Europe, I think look, if we look at what the directive says, it's, it's the consumer redress directive, and the intention there is, is to protect consumers. So we have these big David versus Goliath type actions, you know, major corporations being sued, where that there is a real public harm that's happened, and we've seen this with some, you know, seminal cases in the US that have turned into blockbuster movies. So as a principle the protection of consumer rights through these group actions and these class actions has to be something which is a real public good in the furtherance of of access to justice. And that debate is happening here in the UK, and we're seeing these big David versus Goliath actions being taken, but they come with reputational risk and criticism as well. There's often you know the motivations of the the the parties you know, how much compensation do you actually get? Back after this class section has been going on for so many years? Is it sort of ambulance chasing to bring these claims, all of those issues that you've dealt with in the States, where we're seeing here. So I think, as a principle and as a way of achieving access to justice, class actions are important part of our litigation environment. We're going to see more and more of them in the UK and Europe because of this consumer redress directive and the reputational aspects need to be managed, both from the plaintiff claim of bar in terms of the motivations for bringing these actions, how they're coordinated, how the class is kept informed throughout, which is one of the areas that we do a lot of work in making sure that people know why they're part of a class Action, how the mechanics work, how long it might take, and what kind of compensation they might receive, and from a defendant perspective, it goes back to your point, Robert, and really interested to hear your views on how you've seen class actions develop and perceptions of class actions develop in the States. But for those defending class actions, you know, corporations have a right also to defend those class actions, or at least where there is some liability, to explain how they've addressed that issue, if there's been a regulatory finding. And so the defense lawyers have an important part to play in that, too. Sure.

Rob Bata: 22:59

Well, yeah, I think you're absolutely right that the US model is now taking root, what you might call the US model taking root in Europe and and a lot of that is has been made possible by the various directives. I think that you know, there's, there's a concept in in US law that talks about the notion of the Private Attorney General, so the lawyer who brings the case really kind of stands in the shoes of the government that may not be able to represent the rights of somebody who has been wronged in some way, in some way, that can be legally addressed the US. The discussion is very often about, there are too many wrongs being addressed legally as opposed to some other manner. And I think that's a legitimate discussion. Everything doesn't necessarily result in shouldn't necessarily result in lawsuits. On the other hand, class actions have been very, very important, and I think, I think the role for those, for those defending class actions, and I think it's important to defend them too, because everybody deserves a defense the successful ways of doing that is not to throw around accusations of ambulance chasing or saying that it's not doing anything for the individual members, but really to look at the actual legal issues and also to figure out ways that, yes, maybe there's a way of changing some behavior That wasn't right, and maybe there's a way of addressing the compensation element that isn't just seen as a big payoff for the plaintiffs firm, for the class action firm, although there's that too, because those people put in a lot of time and genuine effort. So I think in the. Us. It's it's certainly very much accepted. It's a very much accepted notion. And I think firms that defend class actions are well prepared for them. They know who are the better law firms that bring class actions and know how to work with them and deal with them and ultimately negotiate settlements and so forth. And I think on the whole, they've, they've, they've done a good job. The danger again and the US is very you know, everybody's a lawyer in this country in the sense that our monarch is the constitution, or precisely the Constitutional Convention, and that's all about rights. The Bill of Rights, you have this right, you have that right. And there is a there's a tendency to feel that that means that every wrong has a legal remedy. And sometimes that's magnified by social media and on that that could be a legitimate debate.

Unknown: 26:04

And that ends part one of GMTs conversation with Gus solito, founder of Byfield reputation Council. You.