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Study Hall from School News Network
No cell phones in class? It’s a good thing, this student and principal say
A recent survey found 72 percent of K-12 teachers say students being distracted by cell phones in their classroom is a major problem. Some states and school districts have adopted policies restricting their use by students during the school day, including Forest Hills Public Schools near Grand Rapids, Michigan. Study Hall welcomes David Simpson, principal at Northern Middle School, and Ari James, a senior at Northern High School, to see how that policy is going five years after it took effect.
For more great stories about the changes and challenges of school districts in West Michigan, check out our website, School News Network.org. And if you have ideas for future programs, feel free to send them to us at SNN@kentisd.org. Thanks for listening, and happy studying!
For more great stories about the changes and challenges of school districts in West Michigan, check out our website, School News Network.org. And if you have ideas for future programs, feel free to send them to us at SNN@kentisd.org. Thanks for listening, and happy studying!
Well, hello everybody, welcome to Study Hall from School News Network. I'm your host, charles Honey, here with Max Wickland, our sound engineer, and we are at Forest Hills Northern Middle School today, and we're here to talk about cell phones. You know those powerful little gadgets in your pocket that put the whole world in your hand. They can be wonderful, like if you're calling your mom to say you know you need a ride from soccer practice because you're going late. It can also be obnoxious, like when you're supposed to be listening to a geography lesson and your friend keeps sending you TikTok videos. Or they can be harmful, when you're getting bullied online at midnight and it shows up on your phone. So yeah, cell phones, everybody's got them. But should everyone be able to have them at all times, especially students while in school? Some say no, and they're citing concerns about their effect on student mental health, classroom learning and the impact of social media in a negative way.
Speaker 1:More districts and states are moving to restrict or ban their use during school hours. California Governor Gavin Newsom recently signed legislation requiring school districts to ban or restrict cell phones during school hours. A bill was recently introduced in the Michigan legislature to restrict their use in school, with varying restrictions depending on the grade level. Just this fall in our area, northview High School, they've begun putting their cell phones in bags during class, either on their desks or tables or on the wall, but they can use them between classes and at lunch. So this is a fraught conversation. It raises complex issues and there's no really simple answers. But here at Forest Hills Northern Middle, the answer is you can't use them during the school day. In 2019, the school district banned cell phone use during school for both students and teachers, and that program was piloted in 2018 here at Forest Hills Northern Middle. So five years later, we wondered how that's all working out.
Speaker 1:And here to talk with us about it are David Simpson, forest Hills Northern Middle principal. Mr Simpson was on the implementation team when the policy was formed. He is also president of the Michigan Elementary and Middle School Principals Association of Over a Thousand Principals, and they have talked about this issue in their meetings. And then we have with us Ari James, a senior at Forest Hills Northern, and she was active. She was at Forest Hills Middle with Mr Simpson at the time the policy was implemented and, by the way, she's a very active student. She's involved in the Michigan Department of Education Student Advisory Council and she's active in promoting voting in our state. She's part of the Unstoppable Young Women for Change, a movement partnership with Shannon Cohen Incorporated, the YWCA and University Prep High School. She is an ARCANET, the high school affiliate club for Zeta Phi Beta sorority excuse me, one of the Divine Nine black sororities and she also throws the shot put in discus for Forest Hills Northern and she holds the school's girls' record in shot put, I'm told.
Speaker 3:Yes, is this true? And how far was that? 35.6.
Speaker 1:Wow, and that's a heavy thing, isn't?
Speaker 3:it. It's 4 kilograms, so that's 8.8 pounds, yikes.
Speaker 1:Okay, then, Suffice it to say you've been around and you are making your mark in the world and here at school and statewide. She is the daughter of Tamasha James, the Forest Hills Director of Educational Equity and Inclusion, and Ken James, Chief Diversity Officer of Muskegon Community College.
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's get into it, david and Ari. David, first of all, if you would, could you sum up this policy and kind of give us a capsule of what it restricts, and how is it different at different grade levels?
Speaker 2:Sure, Like you said, in 2018, we piloted a different policy. We had seen some student behavior, some data that we looked at, and so what we decided is that our kids we want to give them the freedom, the gift of a break from their devices, their technology. I'm a parent too, so I see screens at home and I see sometimes the battles we have with screens, and I see, you know, you go to a restaurant and all four family members are on a device while they're at the restaurant. And so we thought, looked at some of the research and thought let's give our kids the gift. And so when kids get to school, they put their cell phones away in their locker, and at our school, they're not allowed to use them during passing time, check them during lunch or any other time that they remain in their locker and our students do a good job with it.
Speaker 2:It's our culture, it's what we do, and so our students know that we have a lot of positive feedback from our families and we just let them be kids, and so we let them play. We still have recess here, we call it recreation, but we give them the gift of childhood and that's really what we think about it as Middle school, if you recall your middle school days, for some of us who are listening can be a very trying time. So let's not create things that create more anxiety for our kids, but let's give them the gift of, like I said, just being kids again.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting way to put it and a cool way to look at it the gift of childhood, the gift of being kids. How do you think the cell phones were distracting kids from being kids? Well, it was very.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you asked that. When we started looking at that, we looked at case studies, we talked to our students, we talked to our staff. At the time, some staff were pretty against moving towards this. They saw cell phones, as you said in your introduction, very powerful in opening the world of learning to everybody.
Speaker 2:But I think I'm going to read a quote from a student that we, in 2018, as we started looking at a district-wide something I had never thought about at the time, but she said I did always feel on edge. I had to be ready for anyone to take a picture or video of me during the school. I had to look cute and didn't want an ugly pic of me sent anywhere. And so here's a student that we want just to be having fun, to be connecting to building relationships, to be learning at high levels in the hallways, worried about who's going to snap a photo of her, who's going to take a picture and where that picture might end up. And so that hit home when we started looking at what our kids were saying. That was eye-opening to us to think about that anxiety that we were creating for our kids in those moments, and so, like I said, we're giving them a break from that, that here at school they get just to be themselves giving them that gift of childhood once again.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Now you said that they can bring their phones to school, but then they need to put them in the locker, right? Yep, can't get them at lunch, can't get them between classes, can't get in between classes. Is there any time they can get them for some sort of emergency, if there's a medical situation or something going on at home or anything like that?
Speaker 2:100%, and we've been very transparent with our families. If families need a contact I'm a dad too we can give a message that those families will call, and we can deliver a message any time to students and we coach our kids up. If you need to, if you don't know your family's number or you need to text your mom because you're trying to figure out if you have soccer practice or you're going home, we tell kids get permission, come to the office, use in the office and then put it back, and so that way we understand life happens and we want to give those opportunities to our kids. But we want to have courage, and I think the way it works so well in our school is because we have consistency and we have a culture of commitment by our staff, and so we're all on board and so all of our staff believe in this. It's something that we just do, and so we don't have a lot of problems with students trying to keep their phone in their pockets. I'm sure I'm not naive enough to know that.
Speaker 1:I know that kids will try, but we really don't have a lot of it here, so I'm proud of our kids for demonstrating pride every day with that. And is it the same policy at all grade levels along elementary, middle, high school?
Speaker 2:Well, I think I believe at the high school and I'll let actually Ari talk about that a little bit it's a scale and a scope and I totally understand the difference between a middle school environment with two or three grades and a smaller environment to a high school environment with two or three grades and smaller environments to a high school environment with so many more kids and needs. But I believe at the high school this year really that renewed focus on the impact in the classroom. So, ari, can you speak on that a little bit?
Speaker 3:Yeah, while I was hearing this it was really interesting to hear because, like, pragmatically and like daily life at school, you do see a lot of phones and it was um, actually really um interesting to hear, especially when you read that student quote.
Speaker 3:It had, like me thinking personally, because I feel like, if I were like thinking about myself and like my friends, we all have had really like useful moments where, like I had my phone on my person, I was able to, like, you know, figure out something really quickly If there was an emergency. You need to find something out. But then also, unfortunately, a lot of instances of things like cyberbullying. But just from a day-to-day perspective, the way it seems like I think the past two years, especially at the beginning, first week of school, basically all of your teachers well, most of them would be like, so this year really trying to like be more like I'm not sure if strict would be the right word but more intentional about our phone policy because, um, you know, not only just like increased focus and, you know, trying to get as much like out of your time in class as you can and um, but I found that it really depends on what teachers you have and.
Speaker 3:I've seen that in like a variety of different things. I kind of with my schedule and with the teachers that I have like, and you know, kids talk and some kids, you know, I hear like kind of extremes in the same conversation. You have someone like I was on my phone the entire class and like no one cared, and then you have other ones where, like I hope I'm scared to get out my phone to make sure it's on silent but it's like still in my backpack. So. And also another thing is that, um, because it kind of shifted during covid a few years ago I wasn't at high school at the time um, but a lot of kids don't use their lockers anymore.
Speaker 1:So it's either they would like leave in their car if they had one, or they would just either have it on their person or in their backpack so I'm interested like day to day at the high school at forest hills, northern, do our students allowed to bring them into class or how do they handle that?
Speaker 3:yes, they're allowed to like bring them into class. What is like? The rule that's most emphasized is like. I should not see it. It shouldn't be like, shouldn't be like on. It, shouldn't be like on your desk. It shouldn't be on top of your computer. It should be either just away, it shouldn't be like, shouldn't be like on it, it shouldn't be like on your desk, it shouldn't be on top of your computer. It should be either just away and we shouldn't be like thinking about it at least.
Speaker 1:It's not as strict as at the middle school level. You can have it on your person, but I don't want to see it during class. Can you use it between classes to call home or text a friend or something? Something like that?
Speaker 3:I don't think we're supposed to.
Speaker 3:I don't think you're supposed to which I typically don't have my phone on my person, you don't, I have it in my backpack. But, um, I think I've seen I have seen a few phones get taken away during class, but I don't think I've seen them in like the hallways or during lunch, and I've heard like teachers, just you know, talking like honestly to students like I don't think you're supposed to technically have it, but this isn't class time. So, like teachers themselves, you know of course they have their phones. You know Also we have lives outside of school. You know things are going on.
Speaker 1:Well, you mentioned, once in a while a phone gets taken from a student. Is that the penalty? Like you lose your phone for the day? What are the consequences here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so first time again. Kids make mistakes. We know that they're middle schoolers, so they'll just get it at the end of the day and we let them know, remind them of the cell phone policy.
Speaker 2:Second time a parent guardian has to pick it up. Third time it's a parent meeting with a parent guardian and the student and and if it's continued to us it's really not a cell phone violation. It's more than insubordination and it's following our school rules. And so then we put on a cell phone plan. We totally understand that sometimes kids go into different households. They might need a device, so they'll bring it here and it stays in the office during the school day then and they're required to do that.
Speaker 2:But I think again as you hear from Ari, again as you go, and that's what the cell phone restrictions policies you see across the states. You see much more restricted level at the elementary level, which totally makes sense, a little bit different than middle school, and then a little bit different at the high school. And I get it because the high school, the scale, the size, the scope of that, and we actually looked at a number of different things in 2018. So for I want to give credit to Becky Tellswell she was our counselor at the time and she had read the book iGen. And so what we saw is in 2012 was when smartphone adoption officially crossed the 50th percentile of the threshold of implementation in houses, and so then what we saw in 2012 is a drastic increase in depression, anxiety, kids sleeping, reporting, sleeping less, and it all coincided with that 50% threshold adoption. And so what we saw in school, as Ari talked about, we saw administrators spending every day looking at cyberbullying, kids being harassed, feeling not great about what they've been doing online or what somebody's posted about them. We had students seeking mental health supports and anxiety, and so once we implemented our policy, we hardly spent any time looking at anything cyberbullying related because it's not involved in the school. Kids were not involved. We don't bring that into our school.
Speaker 2:But again, we looked at different things. We looked at the cell phone pouches or the calculator pouches where kids would put it in. But one of the things we found and we think about equity and inclusion and belonging is that a lot of kids don't have cell phones at the middle school, and so what it was is it was publicly displaying who doesn't have the haves and the have-nots, or which parents allow it and which parents don't. Our children in our house don't get a cell phone until high school, and so we also had seen and saw reports that kids would have fake phones to pretend like they had a phone. Because middle school is about belonging and acceptance and so we totally get that.
Speaker 2:But I think one of the biggest things for me we're cell phones from the classroom, increased student achievement on assessments by 14%, with our students who are struggling the most, and 6% overall, and that makes a lot of sense because of the distractibility of cell phones. So, for example, we're all focused, we're adults, but if one of our cell phones buzzed in our pockets right now, I guarantee you it would take our mind off the podcast for at least a couple of seconds, if not more. And we're adults, we're highly focused individuals. Imagine kids who are easily distracted. That cell phone buzzes and there's these phantom buzz there's research around that that kids feel like they check it or they feel like they have to have it and so just by removing that really helps increase. And they equateated in research, to an extra five days of additional instruction per year.
Speaker 2:So once we saw that, and along with some of the resources that Becky had brought back about anxiety, depression, loneliness, it was a no-brainer and I'd been on the opposite end. I had always been hey, cell phones are cool, look what we can do. The other big thing is through the support of our community. Our students all have Chromebooks in our classrooms enough Chromebooks and so we have devices for kids, because I think back in the day when we didn't have that, we saw cell phones as a gateway to learning, a gateway to being on the online, and I get that. But now, through the community support, we have Chromebooks. So there's really no need, as you said, to research something. You can use one of the devices that we have.
Speaker 1:Interesting that you mentioned the equity, because I think maybe it's assumed that kids all just have cell phones now and you're saying no, that's actually not the case.
Speaker 2:No, no, especially at the middle level. I think there's a resurgence in some families seeing some of the impact of screens and making those choices, and we support whatever family decides. That's not for us to make a judgment on. But yes, I think at the high school probably there's more saturation of devices, but at the middle level that's not the case. And so what we didn't want to do is remind kids every day when they walk into class, either A their parents maybe don't let them or maybe two they just can't afford one. And so we didn't want to have a reminder where kids would go and publicly put a device every day and be reminded of whether you know they fit in or not.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. Sure, makes a lot of sense. And you talked about the. So you saw here in Forest Hills a reduction in the mental health anxiety kinds of issues at school, the less kids had these. How about the academic effects? What have you seen there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm really proud of the work our teachers and kids do. We see more engagement. We see kids focused.
Speaker 2:We see kids talking to each other, and what we aspire for for the type of learning is collaborative, problem-solving, communicator. You probably remember this from back in the middle school. We do a lot of project-based learning. You're part of the pack, and so we want kids in the morning walking around talking to each other and not staring at a device. And so we see that and our scores show that. We have some of the highest growth scores, and I focus more on growth more than proficiency, and so we demonstrate that when kids come into Northern Hills Middle School through the result of their hard work and the support of our staff. And the ability to focus, our growth does show that.
Speaker 1:So 100%. So, ari, for you, it sounds like you don't necessarily bring your phone to school a lot I do or you're leaving, I kind of have to.
Speaker 3:I keep it in my backpack, keeping your backpack. You don't have it out during the day normally normally I will have to share, just being like completely honest, because, um, as I like mentioned before, because it really depends on kind of sort of, you have to kind of like read the teacher.
Speaker 3:Sometimes the teacher will like tell you like, if you have to like text your mom or something like you can do that or like um, just for example, like if it's like sixth hour or if it's like right before lunch and like it's the end of the day, like there's no like learning learning going on right now. It's just kind of sort of like open time to like start doing homework or something like I might bring it out, I might like check to make sure like I may be a senior um I do not have a car so I have to make sure I know like what's happening. I feel like it would be almost like scary. I just like I love hearing like all of the like achievements in the past few years as you were talking about. It's really interesting to hear, especially with um kind of sort of like the equity part. I never thought about it like having because I me personally I've never been in a class where we had to do that with our phones. I feel like most kids do know and understand.
Speaker 3:Of course you know the impacts, both positive and negative, because I mean we're the people that are most malleable the people who are impacted the most I would say, especially with things like social media. But then also you don't want to have I feel like the most kids don't want to have like stricter phone policies because they enjoy having them. You know it's uh, when you think about it doesn't seem as bad, but then when you say it out loud it's kind of scary.
Speaker 3:Like so many kids be like haha, uh, have done so many homework assignments to do, but like I was playing run or something on my computer, or I was texting someone, or I was watching videos or watching Netflix, and then, like kids, can be distracted so easily because just the way that, like our brains work and because all of the like white matter in our brain hasn't turned into gray matter, like we want to have that like instant validation. Even if kids are hard workers, of course, like me myself, I am very, very, very easily distracted and, like I keep my phone on silent, which is both a good thing and a bad thing like as I talked about before, I need to know, like if people are contacting me so I know that, um, I can get to where I need to well, I'm interested because I want you to keep talking about yourself, talk about how this is for you.
Speaker 1:In other words, when Michigan's banned using phones in your car, for me it was a little bit of a relief. It's like, oh, I don't even, I don't even, I'm not supposed to, so I just I'm just not going to touch that thing, and it was a kind of relief to not have to deal with it and think about it. How is it for you to really not have the option? It's like, well, I'm not supposed to do it, so I won't. Is that a plus or a minus? What are the pros and cons of that for you to not have it available to yourself? Do you like the fact that you are not supposed to use it, or does it feel like you're missing something or you wish you had access to it?
Speaker 3:I guess I kind of sort of like something that's a bit of a balance.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Like in words, I do like technically, like the written rule of what's supposed to happen. However, the reality of it is just like there is a lack of consistency. It is just like there is a lack of consistency like even just like looking around the classroom, just like, out of say, 25 students, it's not uncommon for up to like 10 of them to be doing something actively on their phone at a time. It's it's strange because it's kind of like I have like warring parts of my brain which is like you know it'd be better if it was more strict. You know like, academically, most kids in the class are like doing well, just even just having that like extra little boost, like oh, you weren't paying attention during this one essential part of the lesson. If you had been paying attention, then maybe you've done better on the quiz and then maybe you would have done better on the test. You know that kind of sort of like domino effect.
Speaker 1:It doesn't sound like you have a big problem with the policy.
Speaker 3:I do not.
Speaker 1:What do you like about the policy?
Speaker 3:I like that. To me it doesn't seem as extreme as 100%, like having it in like a locker or something like too far away from you, but I like that it's definitely. I mean just, I guess I like how simple it is.
Speaker 1:And what would you say? The pluses are of not using cell phones in the classroom. What do you see that as? How do you see that as a positive for students?
Speaker 3:Something as simple as just increased focus Increased focus and like effort at like.
Speaker 3:I feel like a lot of kids like don't spend like a lot of time in the present I guess myself included. So just being able to like because I feel like your phone is kind of sort of like a culmination of a lot of things, both personal and like your educational life, because like, for example, even if I'm using my phone, I might be checking power, school or something, or I might be trying to like keep up with a lot, so like it's's you like not being distracted by the?
Speaker 1:yeah, it sounds like you're saying basically because it has. Yeah, it's not it's always there, it's always temptation you could always grab it, see what's going on with the phone right?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's like very quick that's very quick, instantaneous gratification and those are those are the things we talked about when we looked at an appropriate middle school is that, unfortunately, our brains, for our middle school children, aren't developed, they don't fully mature until age 26. And so we knew that temptation we had talked about that, just it's not. It's almost. For some students it's an addiction to screens and devices.
Speaker 2:And so let's just take that temptation out. My wife actually is a teacher at Northern High School and so from her lens I know that there's been a renewed focus of like in the classroom, because there's an impact. I think one of the key differences between the high school and the middle school is we talked earlier we have those Chromebooks for every single student, whereas the high school it's a bring your own kind of device.
Speaker 2:So some students have a device, others have to get a Chromebook, and so sometimes it might be easier, but I know that that focus right now school-wide is really trying to be in the classroom. That's the domain that teachers, especially at a high school and we talked about scale and size that they can manage. Our hallways are smaller. Our teachers are out in the hallways, but I think it's interesting. It's that consistency and commitment that we talked about, that that's what has allowed us to be so successful is that we have the commitment of all of our stakeholders our community, our families and our staff and then we have the consistency, because I think that's going to be key and whether it's at Northview, like you talked about, but it's that consistent application of whatever policy is developed.
Speaker 1:And you're saying you haven't really gotten a lot of complaints about the policy.
Speaker 2:No, I think the question that comes up in the world that we're in is a family's question, with student safety and in case of emergency. And I get that. I'm a dad of a sophomore, decole, and my daughter, aubrey, is a sixth grader, and so I send my children every day and unfortunately, in the world we're in, it's something I think about every day when they go to the bus stop.
Speaker 2:So, I get that as a dad. But what I do know is that I'm so thankful for how much time and effort we spend in creating safe procedures for our students and staff. And I can tell you from a dad perspective, if the unthinkable were to happen, my only desire would be that I'd be able to hug my kids at the end of the day, and students having a cell phone will have no impact on them getting home to the end of the day. We want our students to be listening to the directions of the teachers following our school procedures, not on their cell phone during an emergency. And so again, I get a. There's no parent that that would not.
Speaker 2:That's the goal that you would be reunited if something were bad to happen at a school. And so I get it, that concern about not being able to access a child during an emergency. But again, we want our kids listening to our trained adults, who we go through a lot of training for safety and security procedures district-wide. But I get it. I get those anxieties. I mean we love our kids.
Speaker 1:So, in terms of parents being notified if something, if the worst happens, you know somebody in the building who shouldn't be there how do parents get notified in lieu of students being able to text them? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:We have great communication procedures that are outlined, that we practice. We have a communications team. We have ways to get direct communications home through text messages, through emails to our families and text messages.
Speaker 2:It's a team effort home through text messages, through emails to our families and text messages. It's a team effort. But again, in those moments no kid has been made safer because they had a cell phone on in those moments. They may have recorded some video that they put on TikTok later or on a social media site, but it hasn't helped as far as the safety of the situation. And so, again, we just want our kids to be safe and that's why we do have those safety security procedures with trained adults that know how to handle that and then communicate out as needed.
Speaker 1:And parents aren't going to be in a blackout situation where, oh my God, something's happening at school but I don't know if my kid's safe.
Speaker 2:I mean no we're going to communicate. We have all those procedures in place, like every school in the state of Michigan does, but again, in those moments, we want our kids being safe and listening to the directions of the adults.
Speaker 1:Ari, how do you feel about that? If a really bad thing happens in your school, do you feel would you want to have access to the phone to call your folks or text your folks?
Speaker 3:Or do you trust that the school is going to handle this? I would say, personally, I would actually say that I would, and I don't know, it feels kind of dark, but the reason being and also I do have like anxiety, oh sure.
Speaker 2:Who doesn't? I was about to say yeah.
Speaker 3:But, like I said in times, I guess I wouldn't be thinking about it that much if I was like in a group, and that's also one of the things that we're really trying to work on a lot this year is not having so many kids in the hallway, if you're like in the bathroom or something or in a different place and like even there have been times where I've been frightened, like I hear like a really loud noise and I'm like I don't have my phone, I can't try and like alert my parents, I can't. So, um, just kind of getting ahead, which um even and I know this year actually, interestingly, we have what they call like the hawk system. Have you seen?
Speaker 3:it care the care hawk system yeah and so like there's a um, so we have like newer clocks and stuff in a newer um pa system as well as like they have like these, like emergency buttons and I know that's like all like connected um and those are in like like every classroom.
Speaker 1:So that's a school-wide technology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's coming out through the support of our community and our general fund to all schools just to have those safety. It's called the CareHawk system and allows for emergency calls from anywhere in the school. So that's coming online at some of our high schools right now and other schools, some of our middle schools and elementaries and then all schools will have that eventually. But again, I think it's a great. I mean it's a desire of all of us, that connection piece. We want to let our loved ones know that we're okay. But again, when I look families into the eye, when they drop off kids at the car drop-off line in the morning or at the bus stop, I look at our families and say my job is to keep your kids safe and we take that very seriously. And so we do those things, we practice and we have those opportunities, but again I empathize.
Speaker 2:I get it, um, got a couple of kids yourself, yeah, yeah. But as we look at it, um and we've seen the impact, we've seen we see healthier kids in our middle school, we see happier kids, we see kids that are able to focus more, um, and so to me it's a no-brainer, it's been the best decision we've ever made for our kids, because I feel like, again, we're giving them the gift of childhood and in retrospect, in hindsight, I wish I would have done this earlier.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much to both of you for the time today. It's an important issue and thanks so much to our listeners for coming to Study Hall again. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. It's been a pleasure to be with you. Hall again. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. It's been a pleasure to be with you and I look forward to joining you again soon on the School News Network webpage or wherever you get your podcasts. So see you next time and don't forget your pencils.
