Study Hall from School News Network
Join our rotating cast of journalists, school leaders, teachers and students to explore what's happening in school districts across Kent County, Michigan and beyond. We dive into the issues, challenges and changes related to public education today, and highlight the fabulous teachers and brilliant, creative students who make our schools such exciting places to learn.
Study Hall from School News Network
What would closing U.S. Dept. of Education mean for special education in Kent County?
President Trump’s March 20 executive order calling for closure of the U.S. Department of Education has special-education advocates worried about the harmful impact that could have on services for students with disabilities.
In today’s episode, Kirsten Myers, Kent ISD assistant superintendent of student services, and Mark Higgins, special education finance supervisor, explain what special-ed programs provide, how they’re funded and how they could be harmed by dismantling or downsizing the U.S. DOE.
For more great stories about the changes and challenges of school districts in West Michigan, check out our website, School News Network.org. And if you have ideas for future programs, feel free to send them to us at SNN@kentisd.org. Thanks for listening, and happy studying!
Well, hello everyone and welcome to Study Hall from Schools Network, your window into the public schools of Kent County, michigan. We're here today to talk about an issue that has come to the fore of the national political discussion, and that is the future of the US Department of Education and, more specifically, that department's role in funding special education services to thousands of students with disabilities in Kent County and some seven and a half million students nationwide. Now President Trump has vowed to close the US Department of Education and turn over all education funding and oversight to the states. Newly appointed Secretary of Education, linda McMahon, endorses that goal, although she notes it would have to be approved by Congress. She's proposed moving departmental functions to other federal agencies, such as Health and Human Services, and she insists that funding for key areas such as special education and disadvantaged students will not be reduced.
Speaker 1:In the meantime, the department workforce has been slashed by about half and Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency has canceled hundreds of millions in contracts and grants, although a federal judge ordered the Education Department to restore many of those grants, some of which were to fund training in special education.
Speaker 1:Secretary McMahon calls these cuts eliminating quote bureaucratic bloat, but special education advocates say the Trump administration is gutting an already understaffed department and that this will deprive students of needed services. So the picture is far from clear as to how this will shake out and affect special education students everywhere, including here in Kent County. So today we'll look at a few things what kinds of students are served by special education in Kent ISD, which oversees special ed services for its 20 local school districts, how those services are delivered and what the impact could be if the US Department of Education is eliminated or drastically reduced. Here to break down the details. With us is Kirsten Myers, kent ISD Assistant Superintendent of Student Services, who oversees special education among her other responsibilities. We'll be joined in a bit by two other Kent ISD leaders who will help us understand these programs and what's at risk for them. So welcome, kristen.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's good to be here. Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:So let's begin with the big picture. You have a long history in special ed. Not only have you been overseeing it in Kent ISD since 2019, you were also in charge of special ed for Rockford Public Schools for 15 years, so it looks like you have a real heart for working in special education. Why is that?
Speaker 2:It actually goes back to my youth. I started my journey in special education as a young child. My mom actually worked on this campus, so I had the opportunity to certainly be a part of her journey in special education as a school social worker, and that's what prompted me to go into the field. I have a long, rich history in special education and my passion has never waned for supporting students that are most often marginalized.
Speaker 1:What kind of a difference have you seen in these teachers and programs making in students' lives and the lives of their families?
Speaker 2:Special education programming is incredibly important and really look at how we can specially design instruction to meet their individual needs so that they can grow and progress at a much larger rate than potentially otherwise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's really cool that you've got that family history and that that passion is continuing for you. So about how many students are served by special education services in Kent County schools. About how many students are served by special education services in Kent County schools.
Speaker 2:In Kent County we're serving just under 14,000 students that have identified disabilities.
Speaker 1:Which is about what 14% of the total student body.
Speaker 2:Very close to that, yes.
Speaker 1:And they're served both by Kent ISD center-based programs and in local school district programs. Is that right?
Speaker 2:That is accurate.
Speaker 1:Okay programs and in local school district programs. Is that right? That is accurate, Okay. So besides the 20 public school districts are private schools, charter schools, homeschool students also served by your special ed services.
Speaker 2:They are, charter schools are obligated to the same rules and regulations and responsibilities as our public schools. As far as our private schools and homeschool families, if they register with the Michigan Department of Education, then we have obligations to provide auxiliary services to those entities and we work very collaboratively. Our local districts work with our non-publics relative to Child Find and the identification of special education eligibility and then service under a non-public service plan if they are eligible. We're doing a lot of work on ensuring that students qualify for special education, meaning we need to go back to determining if there's an adverse impact supporting that eligibility and really looking at does it require specially designed instruction through an IEP or should we be looking at Section 504 plans to be able to support accommodations and potentially modifications and services that support accessibility to the gen ed curriculum and environment? So we're having a lot of conversations around right now. Is it special education and that adverse impact is is clear and that need for specially designed instruction, or is it a Section 504 plan?
Speaker 2:So we're really starting to look at those at a much greater depth in supporting students and opportunity to that rich general education content and the opportunities alongside their grade and age level peers.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned IEP and Section 504. Can you tell us a little about what those are?
Speaker 2:Yes, the difference between them is where I can start. So the difference between them is that an IEP identifies.
Speaker 1:Individualized education plan.
Speaker 2:You got it, it's very individualized and it supports the unique and core features of the disability and it provides specially designed instruction, meaning we have special educators that are supporting those goals and objectives and any other supports and services that are identified for that student. For those students A Section 504 plan provides accommodations and other supports that really support that student within the general education environment. So there's not the provision of special education programming or services. It's really looking at what accommodations are needed to support accessibility to that general education curriculum and classroom.
Speaker 1:So are you looking at, in making those decisions, what is the most advantageous for the student? In other words, would they gain more in terms of their learning by being in an IEP plan, a special education plan, versus being in a mainstream classroom? Is there a kind of a weighing process that goes on in terms of what's better for this child?
Speaker 2:That least restrictive environment and in most cases that's the general education classroom, to the maximum extent possible. That is the goal, so that they're learning from high quality, certified teachers and alongside their grade and age level peers. So that is the goal, so that they're learning from high quality, certified teachers and alongside their grade and age level peers. So that is the goal for all of our students with disabilities to the maximum extent possible. So the difference again with an IEP anytime we are providing that specially designed instruction, we are weighing what that looks like alongside their civil right to an education in that general education environment.
Speaker 1:And, as I understand it, you are required by law all schools are required by law to provide these services special education services to students, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And in Kent County do you see many kids from outside of the district, outside of Kent County, or people who come here specifically for these special ed programs?
Speaker 2:We don't service students outside of our county. However, we do see an influx of students moving into Kent County every year for I would say our districts are doing a fantastic job in providing, and really focusing on providing, high-quality programming and services.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we are certainly seeing again that adds to the fluctuation any given year relative to the number of students that we serve, but we are certainly seeing more and more students move in. I will say we're seeing more and more students move in at that transition age as well. So our 18 to 26 population, partially because here in Kent we operate Empower U, which is very specific to transition programming for that 18 to 26 population.
Speaker 1:I think some people might be surprised that you're serving people who are aged 18 to 26. What is the total age range of the children and young adults you serve?
Speaker 2:So we are obligated under IDEA and more specifically under the Michigan Administrative Rules for Special Education, to provide services for eligible students birth to 26. So in Michigan 26 looks quite a bit different than the rest of the country. We are the only state to service students through the age of 25 into 26, whereas most states stop servicing with a diploma or a certificate of completion at 21 or 22.
Speaker 1:No kidding, yes, so Michigan is about the only state that we are the only state, you are the only state that services to 26.
Speaker 2:Wow which makes it challenging financially.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would think so for sure. Can you talk just real briefly about the different kinds of students, the different kinds of learning problems, disabilities that you work with in these kids?
Speaker 2:Sure, there are 13 different eligibility categories under the Michigan Administrative Rules for Special Education. Under the Michigan Administrative Rules for Special Education, and obviously with those 13, students can qualify. Again, with that adverse impact and looking at the requirement and need for specially designed instruction under many different areas, such as a specific learning disability, which would look at students that require more specific support in areas such as reading or writing or math. We also have areas of eligibility under autism spectrum disorder and these are looking at students with autism that have a range of developmental disorders that affect communication, social interaction behavior, communication, social interaction behavior. We have eligibility under a cognitive impairment, which these students have what would be considered in most cases below average or in all cases below average intellectual functioning and limitations in adaptive behavior, which are skills needed for everyday life.
Speaker 2:Also, we have students that would qualify under an emotional impairment, and that's looking more specifically at students with challenges with emotional regulation, behavior, mental health, some of those components. We have students that would be determined eligible under speech and language impairments, and these are difficulties under speech and language impairments and these are difficulties under speech and language and communication. I can go on and on. There's 13 different, well, sure, and they're just some of them, but a big picture.
Speaker 1:I mean they can go from what you described as learning disabilities, difficulties with things like reading, things like reading, or emotional impairments, but you can also have very severe physical impairments. Correct that you're still trying to educate.
Speaker 2:Yes, we have students sort of from a continuum perspective. You're looking at students that might qualify under a specific learning disability. That's very specific to a reading deficit or a writing deficit or a math deficit, all the way to students that have higher support needs is the way that we like to classify it. And that can be students with severe multiple impairments or, as I noted, autism, or I mean there's many different reasons why a student would have high support needs, but certainly there's a continuum.
Speaker 1:And some of these students are served in schools that are specifically for those kinds of students right Lincoln School, lincoln Developmental Center, for instance.
Speaker 2:Yes, so we operate through Kent ISD student and center programming. I mentioned EmpowerU, that's our transition programming for students ages 18 to 26. We also have Lincoln Developmental, which is our students that have more severe multiple impairments, and then our Lincoln School, our Pine Grove our students that we provide programming for students with more severe cognitive impairments and is where autism programming is provided. And then we also have our Kent Education Centers, our KEC Oakley and KEC Beltline that services students with higher support needs relative to emotional impairments.
Speaker 1:So you must have a lot of different kinds of specialists in these areas working with these students. Can you tell me about some of the skills and professionals that are needed to work with such a broad range of students?
Speaker 2:We do. The other program I want to highlight is we also have deaf and hard of hearing programming, that is, most of our programs that I just mentioned are in segregated settings, unfortunately, the problem with that I'm just going to mention the problem with that is it takes them away from their resident communities, their resident schools and away from that instruction and opportunities to engage with our great and ageable peers. So we have to really be cautious and careful when we think about moving a child to a segregated facility. So I want to say that, first and foremost, the beauty of our DHH program is that it is embedded into Northview Public Schools. We love that. We partner with them because we have all of those opportunities embedded right there within Northview.
Speaker 2:To answer your specific question, we have many, many different specialists that support the different eligibilities within special education. So I mentioned DHH. We have interpreters, we have deaf and hard of hearing consultants, we have deaf and hard of hearing teachers and those run from birth actually to 26. So those are some that we certainly support within our deaf and hard of hearing program, which is comprised of our total communications, which is our really predominantly American sign language, and then we have an oral deaf program as well. So we've got two different programs that fall under our deaf and hard of hearing. In the rest of our programs and out in local regionals we have school psychologists and school social workers and occupational therapists and physical therapists. We have visual vision consultants, we have orientation and mobility specialists. So there's I mean there are many positions that I haven't even identified here that support the intricacies of navigating the needs, the individual needs for students that are eligible for special education programs and services.
Speaker 1:So, as mentioned, the status and future of the US Department of Education is very much in doubt, to say the least. Don't know where this is going exactly, but it doesn't look like it's going in a great direction in terms of people who are involved with providing special education services. So for that discussion I'm bringing in Mark Higgins, special Education, finance and Transportation Supervisor for Kent ISD. Hi, mark, and thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:So we're going to get into questions of funding, questions of oversight, questions of legislation and questions of how all these changes at the federal level could affect what you are doing here at the local level, could affect what you are doing here at the local level. First of all, Mark, what's the total funding allocated to special ed programs through Kent ISD and how much of that does come from the federal government.
Speaker 3:So last year the last year that we have actual final data for there was about $263 million spent on special education across Kent, isd and all of our constituent districts. Of that, total $32 million, a little more than $32 million actually came directly from federal government grants, be it IDEA flow-through or preschool grants.
Speaker 1:Okay, so not a math major at all, but maybe an eighth, about an eighth of your funding. Yeah, roughly, roughly.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's a lot 12.348%.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for that.
Speaker 3:If you want numbers from the numbers guy.
Speaker 1:All right, my math wasn't that bad. So does this all come through the Individuals, the Disabilities Act, aka IDEA? Yes, we receive two grants.
Speaker 3:Those flow from the federal government to the state of Michigan. The state of Michigan then allocates them to the ISD level. The larger grant, a little over $30 million, comes in as the IDEA flow-through grant. That is for all students ages 3 to 21. And then we receive also the IDEA preschool grant, which is a much smaller number. That's for students ages 3 to 5.
Speaker 1:And what about the 18 to 26 segment?
Speaker 2:I was just going to ask you to touch on that, Mark so.
Speaker 3:IDEA is a federal regulation which goes over special education and, at a federal level, federal regulation which goes over special education. And at a federal level, the regulations call on us to educate students ages 3 to 21. The state of Michigan has declared that beyond that, we are going to actually educate students from ages 22 to 26, so that is not something that the federal government really does address when it comes to funding for special education. And where does that money come from? State and local funds. State and local.
Speaker 1:Yes, I noted earlier.
Speaker 2:That it makes it challenging that we are a birth to 26 states, exactly From a financial perspective.
Speaker 1:So state and local, you got state funding through. Does it come through the state aid fund or school?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, the state aid fund allocates a fair amount of money. You know, last year for Kent ISD our total was about 21% of all of our funding came from state aid for special education.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what about the local millages for that?
Speaker 3:The local millage here in Kent ISD we are very fortunate. Last year our local millage actually provided 41% of all of the special education expenditures throughout all of Kent ISD and our constituent districts. It was $108 million.
Speaker 1:So a total of $263 million spent on special ed through K-9, isd. Over and above these different sources you've talked about, do local districts also have to pick up some funds, because there just isn't enough to cover everything?
Speaker 3:That is always going to be the case. Yes, Our local districts. When we distribute the local millage dollars to them, we're making sure that they're not overly funded, and that never ends up being the case. What happens with special education is these costs are mandated. We have to have them. If you don't have enough dollars that are explicitly designated by special ed, then the rest of your general fund is going to have to pick up those costs.
Speaker 2:That really works alongside one of the pillars of IDEA, which is the provision of a free, free being the key to that what Mark just noted inappropriate public education, that's FAPE. So that free piece can be challenging when the overages are certainly real as it relates to educating some of our students with disabilities.
Speaker 1:So if a local district needs to has a certain number of special education students that they need are required to educate, they're not getting enough funds from these different sources. It comes out of their general ed funding.
Speaker 2:Correct, correct, exactly, that's accurate.
Speaker 1:Okay. So yeah, let's get to the the whatever animal is in the room, Sorry.
Speaker 2:It's probably rather large right.
Speaker 1:President Trump has vowed repeatedly to shut down the US Department of Education this is not a new thing, but he's vowed that and to turn education funding and oversight entirely over to the states. So if that were to happen and it were shut down, what possible impacts do you both see that could have on your programming?
Speaker 2:I can start. Our greatest concern is that IDEA is the Individual with Disabilities Education Act, so to move IDEA out of a department of education is concerning for that reason. There is accountability structures within IDEA that need governance. So when we think about governance, what would that look like if it was moved to another entity is concerning for us. So again, going back to that Education Act being the work that needs to be done. So I'm concerned about what that means from a funding structure as well as an accountability structure, because these are an IEP is a legal document. We're obligated to uphold the civil rights of our students and in order to do that, the funding and the oversight is incredibly necessary. So the movement elsewhere could jeopardize that.
Speaker 1:So are you talking about? Secretary McMahon has talked about the idea of moving, say, idea special ed programming over to Department of Health and Human Services correct, correct. And you're saying well, it's not going to be the same because it's not within the education framework yes, yeah, does that apply to the civil rights of special education students too, because I think she's talked about moving that to a different agency as well.
Speaker 2:Certainly there needs to be connectedness to be able to do the work and do it well. So it is starting to feel very disjointed and the concern on that and not something that can be changed under executive order.
Speaker 3:Correct. Yeah, I think that's the one thing that a lot of us in school finance right now are are paying attention to is you know, we still live in a democracy that has three branches of government and it is still Congress that maintains the purse strings. So we're making sure that when the decisions on budgets are made, that it does not appear that there would hopefully be enough votes to take away IDEA funding to districts.
Speaker 2:To add to that, I think our Part B, which is our students, 3 to 26,. Our Part C is that birth to 3 population. That's not likely to be looked at for a reduction based on the current funding formula. We don't see there to be any real ramifications there. However, there are some preliminary concerns with discretionary usages. So IDEA is not just Part B and C, there is a Part D that comes to states and universities and really supports some of that, evidence-based best practices and the research, and if that's reduced and eliminated, that certainly is tangential to the work that we do in Part B and C. So while the funding structures we feel pretty confident about, there are some other pieces that will have a significant impact on the work that we do.
Speaker 1:So, given these caveats, how likely do you think it is that President Trump will actually be able to follow through on that stated goal of actually shutting down the department?
Speaker 3:I think only a fool gives betting odds these days on what is happening in Washington DC. You know, I do believe there is a great potential for a large amount of shrinking within the department. I still believe it takes an act of Congress to get rid of the department act of Congress to get rid of the department, but I guess we'll see.
Speaker 2:I think that my answer to your question would change on any given day or week, just because, obviously, with all of the executive orders and the push and pull that's happening with that situation impacts my response, something that you said, mark. I am concerned about any movement away from the Education Act, gravely concerned about that. Just as I said, based on the oversight needed and the accountability structures to support and uphold the protections for students with disabilities. Yet what we're seeing in the current landscape, with the Department of Education and the substantial cutting of staff within the department at 50% right now is concerning. Again, as it relates to the federal protections that these students and families deserve under the legislation. I would agree that is incredibly concerning. One of the structures that's been cut right now is the actual attorneys that fall within the Department of Education and, again, the attorneys are supporting the day-to-day impact of IDEA on our students. So without that governance and that accountability structure, the landscape could look a little bit different.
Speaker 1:Talk about the attorneys, Kirsten. How does that figure in? Are you talking about civil rights of students or discrimination against students?
Speaker 2:I would say all of the above and the protections afforded under IDEA. So again, that governance structure. If that continues to be reduced under the Education Act, where will that be picked up?
Speaker 1:So that's just one of the latest pieces that well, when you talk about silver, I mean, how does that look in terms of special education? Is it like students are not getting the services that they are entitled to and therefore that must be corrected? Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?
Speaker 2:yes, I'm going back to accountability, to our obligations and accountability to IDEA. So some of the guidance and the governance happens with attorneys that are working to support that federal legislation. So if that piece is gone, that accountability structure could be at risk on that accountability structure could be at risk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm wondering. You know you mentioned the cutting of the workforce by about half. Also, hundreds of millions of dollars of grants have been cut, although this federal district judge did say no, you can't just cut that. Who knows how that's going to play out. Have you already felt any impact here from the personnel cuts, the funding freezes that have been imposed?
Speaker 3:You know, from the funding freezes perspective right now in Kent ISD the biggest one that I think we're tracking that we have in the special ed department I don't want to speak for the entire ISD but in the special ed department you know we were given actually, a clean energy bus grant from the federal government last year. Those buses we're working with Dean Transportation, who does all of our special ed transportation, and those buses are on order and they are counting on a $2.2 million federal rebate to fulfill that order. So we're expecting the buses to be delivered in the fourth quarter of this calendar year, in the end of 2025. And I guess our hope is that by the time they arrive the federal government does indeed open up those funds.
Speaker 1:I guess one of the scenarios you're talking about, though, is that, even if they don't shut down the department as such, they could just take down the funding and the resources by such a great degree that you would be left with a much more challenging financial situation in terms of paying for the services.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. If we lost the IDEA grant, it would be a catastrophic hit to all of the local district budgets across Kent ISD.
Speaker 2:But before we go there. It looks to be right now that, based on the current funding formula that that would be improbable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2:I just want to make sure we agree it would be catastrophic, but based on the current funding formula that doesn't seem realistic at the moment.
Speaker 1:Thankfully. Why is that, kirsten? We don't need to get into the weeds of the formula, but you're saying, even if they drastically cut down the funding for special ed at the federal level.
Speaker 3:I guess my thought is I still don't see them drastically cutting down the funding for special ed at the federal level. If they do. It's going to be, as Kirsten alluded to, maybe some of those smaller portions, the Part D.
Speaker 2:The discretionary pieces. It's federal legislation. So I think that's number one. Number two, I think from a social justice perspective, it would be incredibly challenging from a political perspective to cut funding for our students with disabilities.
Speaker 3:I don't think you've seen a lot of Congress people who have been out there running on that platform of cutting special ed funding, correct.
Speaker 1:So we're talking about Congress people, we're talking about legislation. So we're talking about Congress people, we're talking about legislation. What are you doing?
Speaker 2:or what's happening on the legislative side to try to protect these programs. For Ken ISD, I will say we are very connected statewide to our statewide organization, mace, which is the Michigan Administrators for Special Education, as well as Special Education Instructional Leadership Network, which falls under MAISA. We are collectively working towards a common, collaborated, calibrated response for Michigan. So that is underway currently. We had a conversation just yesterday about how are we going to come together around these efforts and certainly hopefully working with Dr Rice to be able to come up with some coordinated response for Michigan.
Speaker 1:Are you concerned about state funding in this picture that, given all the pressure to downsize institutions, to downsize government spending, that that may play out at the state level.
Speaker 3:I would actually argue that the state level for the past several years has actually been really stepping up to the plate and increasing special ed funding. We've made some changes to the special ed formula over the last three years that have drastically increased the amount that the state is putting into special ed education across all of the districts, not just Kent ISD, and on top of that, as it stands right now, revenue consensus estimates have been still coming in projecting more growth in state aid revenue. So I don't foresee the state cutting back on any expenditures and special ed anytime soon.
Speaker 2:I would agree completely. Michigan has been committed to closing the funding gap for our students with disabilities, which we are incredibly, incredibly grateful for. So I would say I agree completely with Mark on that front.
Speaker 1:So the animating idea behind these cuts that are being made and the idea of cutting the whole department is that there's fraud and waste going on that is out of control and this is what's being targeted. Speaking as people who run these programs in Ken ISD, what's your thought about that allegation?
Speaker 3:I don't know if laughter is the best response. I will actually laugh to his response. I would challenge anyone who thinks there's fraud and waste to come walk through our school buildings and see the Herculean effort that all of our staff are putting forth to give these students the best opportunities in life. And no, there's no fraud or waste that I'm seeing.
Speaker 2:Mark, I love that response. The Herculean effort is exactly what's happening. We have you mentioned earlier the staff that it takes to be able to provide specially designed instruction for students with disabilities is substantial, and it's there for a reason. So if we are going to do everything we can to close that gap between grade and age level beers and allow them an opportunity at growing and progressing at the maximum extent, then we certainly need to have the staff by which to do that and the supports by which to do that.
Speaker 1:Well, you've been a great help on understanding this situation, which I think is confusing, to say the least, to many people. Is there anything else that we should be talking about here before we sign off?
Speaker 3:You know, the one thing for me that stands out, that actually does cause me concern when I look at federal funding, is the talks around Medicaid, because for Medicaid there is a portion that is used for school-based services and within Kent ISD we actually collect that on behalf of the districts, and this year we're budgeting to receive $10.7 million in Medicaid funds and just about all of those dollars flows directly right back to our local districts.
Speaker 2:Which offsets some of the cost of special education? Exactly?
Speaker 3:So we receive that funding because we have speech therapists doing direct service with students. We have social workers and occupational therapists and physical therapists. That's why we receive those dollars. When there are talks of cuts to Medicaid and that is something that I do fear is going to come down the pike school-based services might become a low-hanging fruit that ends up taking some of the brunt of that cut. And so for Kent ISD, like I said, you know we're looking at over $10 million that might be taken away from all of our districts.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you brought that up. That is a very, that's a very real concern as it stands today.
Speaker 1:Well, it's been great talking with you. I appreciate your time, busy people and thanks for listening to us all our study hall listeners. Hope you enjoyed the conversation, learned a few things and it's a pleasure to be with you. Look forward to joining you again soon on the School News Network webpage or wherever you get your podcasts. So we'll see you next time and don't forget your pencils.
