Learn and Work Smarter

120. Note-Taking During Phone Calls, ADHD Accommodations at Work and School, and Supporting College Students (Q&A)

• Katie Azevedo • Episode 120

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In this Q&A episode of the Learn and Work Smarter podcast, I answer three questions submitted by listeners of the show.


Question 1: How to take notes during phone calls.

Question 2: How to support a struggling college student

Question 3: How to ask for ADHD accommodations (in graduate school and work)


What You Learn:

  • Why capturing notes is only half the job, and what the more important second step actually is
  • A simple pre-call habit that makes note-taking significantly easier (and less stressful)
  • What parents of struggling college students usually get wrong about why their kid is falling behind
  • The legal protections available to students with ADHD or disabilities in grad school, and how to actually use them
  • Why people with ADHD sometimes feel totally fine, then suddenly overwhelmed again, and what to do when it happens


🔗 Resources Mentioned:


❤️ Connect:

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Hello there. Welcome to the Learn and Work Smarter podcast. This is one of our monthly q and a episodes where I answer questions submitted by listeners of the show. And if you're thinking, wait, I have questions to ask, and how do I do that? The process is super simple. Head to Learn and work smarter.com and write there on the homepage, if you scroll down just a teeny tiny bit is a simple form to submit your questions. I'll also leave that link in the show notes if that is easier for you. If you are watching on YouTube, all the links I mentioned today will be in the description box and when you're there, make sure you're subscribed to the show. Leave a comment if you're so inclined. Nothing makes me happier. Alright, today we're answering three questions. Normally I try to get to two, although if I'm being honest, my answer to one of the questions today is really, really short. So it's kind of like I'm answering two, but my short answer to that question might be the most helpful of them all. All questions today were submitted by working professionals, although one is also a student, as I always say, for these monthly q and a episodes, even if these questions aren't your own, sometimes when we hear other people's questions we realize that we were actually wondering the same thing ourselves. So I encourage each and every one of you to listen all the way through, and if you hear something today that you think might resonate with somebody you know, please share the episode with them. All right, we are ready to begin. Okay, I'm gonna jump right in with our first question. I am gonna read it. They write, hi Katie. Thanks for answering our questions. I've been enjoying your show. Here is my question. My job requires me to be on the phone for several hours a day. Some of these phone calls are internal and I can process them fine, but some are complicated and contain a lot of information. For context, I'm not exactly in sales, but my department is sales adjacent. What's the best way to take notes during these phone calls so I don't miss what the prospect is saying when I'm writing things down? Thank you. So what's the best way to take notes during phone calls? That is a really good question. I talk a lot about note taking in my student programs. I have the note taking power system as a standalone note taking program for students. I have schoolhabits university that has an entire notetaking module, but in those programs I'm mostly talking about taking notes during lecture classes, taking notes from videos and from slides, things like that. So this is actually a really good question that I don't think I've covered much. So there are two sides to this answer. One is gonna be about tools and one is gonna be about strategy. I am more about strategy than about tools, but sometimes in a case like this, I think the right tool could be helpful if you're gonna go in that direction. Now you did say phone calls and not video meetings, like Teams or Zoom. So that gets a little trickier because I know that for Zoom you could use something like Fathom, which is an automatic note taker. There's pros and cons to that. I think there's, honestly, I've used Fathom before and it just generates so much information that is unnecessary. I'm gonna talk about that in a sec. But phone calls are a little bit harder because there's definitely legal boundaries to stay in when it comes to recording phone calls, so I am not at all advising you to record anything without anybody's permission. I've heard of lawsuits around this, actually, even in like smaller workplace settings. So first things first, if you're gonna record, you do need to get somebody's permission. And then the ways that you would do that could be maybe putting your phone on speaker phone and having a recording app on your computer that catches what it hears from your phone. I did a little research before answering this question and I found that there's a bunch of programs or like apps out there that claim to be able to record your phone calls, but all of the reviews are awful. And then of course, ethically questionable. That is why I am not gonna recommend a tool for doing this at all, but I'm just starting with this tool part of my answer in case that's the direction you were thinking of going. If you were thinking of recording these calls so that you could fully, actively listen to the person speaking without worrying about writing things down or missing things, that tends to be the biggest gripe with note taking. Even if you're a student, it's like, oh, they're talking and I'm trying to write at the same time. It's really hard. And then if you did this, if you did record, you essentially have a transcription of the phone call that you could do something with after. But hear me loud and clear a transcription of a phone call, just like I am always saying a transcription of a class or you know, a transcription of a video is only like 5% of the value. The 95% of the value comes from doing something with that information, and that's where strategy comes in. Now, if we're not gonna use a tool and you're looking for strategies on how to listen and take notes by hand or type them, then there's definitely a few approaches and there's some tips that I can share with you. First and foremost, preparation is key. I say the same thing when I'm teaching students how to take notes in their lecture classes. Set it up beforehand. Chances are that when you're about to get on the phone with someone, unless they're calling you out of the blue, right, you know who they are and you know what the objective is, and you generally know the agenda of the phone call. So in that case, you can set some things up beforehand, at the very least, like the date, the person and the objective. Now, if there is a certain type of phone call that you're having all the time, I know you said you weren't in sales, I think you said you were sales adjacent. I liked that. But maybe there's a kind of flow to your conversation. Maybe there's a sequence of things that you're always saying. Maybe there's a series of questions you're always asking on these phone calls. Well, then you could have those questions already written down in some kind of note taking template. And then essentially all you're doing is adding some bullet points as they answer those questions. That's one less thing for you to write down. Now, another strategy is to use abbreviations, symbols like arrows and equal signs and fragments instead of complete sentences. The goal is to capture the gist of what's being said. The goal is not to collect a transcript of every word. Now, a good way to make sure that you're doing this is to use bullet points. That kind of trains your mind to think in fragments instead of complete sentences, which is something that you want to do when you're crunched for time, like on a fast moving phone call. In the note taking power system, I teach students how to take notes during a lecture class, which is listening to the teacher or the professor talk and capturing the gist, kinda like we're doing here. But in those contexts where it's like an organized lecture and the material is being presented in a certain organized way, it can make sense, it does make sense to use a certain note-taking setup, which I teach in the program. I teach three note-taking methods in that program. But for phone calls, which we're talking about here, it's more of a back and forth conversation. It's not sequential and organized like a lecture class, so I don't actually recommend following any particular note taking method like Cornell or anything like that. I just say use bullet points on the phone call and don't worry about organizing it until afterward. And I'll talk about what I mean by that in a second. That's really the most important strategy. Now, I'll tell you something that I during do during phone calls is anytime that I can tell that the person said something important, I put a box around it. I'm also quite the phone call doodler, so I'm always like drawing shapes and boxes anyway, but I think that starring or circling or putting a box around or maybe even underlining key parts is just helpful for me. So when I go back to those notes again, I'm gonna talk about what I mean by that in a second, there's some hierarchy in terms of importance. Because when you're taking notes, you know, just on a phone call, there's no hierarchy or just it's this back and forth conversation like you don't know where it's gonna go. But if you add some kind of star or a box or an underline around parts you think are important, that creates your hierarchy of importance right there. Now, another tip to ensure that you're catching the most important information is to ask the person to repeat themselves. But this is not something you wanna do more than once in a phone call. But if you genuinely miss something that the person said because you were trying to listen and write at the same time, you could say, hold on, I'm sorry, but I just wanna make sure that I got that right. Could you please repeat that last part? Now, in a professional setting, if you do this more than once, it could come across as incompetence, or it might make the other person think that you're not listening to them, which of course we know is not the case. Right, but that's the impression it would give off. And in this setting, we do have to think about optics. But my point is, if you miss something that you truly think is critical to the call, you could simply ask them to repeat it. Now, I've alluded to this already, but there is a second part to this. Capturing the notes is part one, but then clarifying the notes is the second part. I really go into detail in the note taking power system, and I don't mean to be plugging that so much in the answer here, but it does contain the answer to what you're looking for. It is so normal to miss things in the capture phase when we're listening on a phone call, maybe we're sitting in a lecture class, we're sitting around a table at a meeting, and we're all just doing our best to collect the information that's coming at us. Again, using fragments and symbols and underlines and bullet points and things like that, but the real true magic comes after the call is over comes after the class is over, after the meeting is over, that's when you look at your notes and you say, okay, like what am I doing with this? I'm not gonna go too deep into the clarify phase here, because again, that is all in the note taking power system. But one key point is I want you to look at the notes you took during the call and extract task items from them. So if there's anything that came up during the call that you need to do, maybe follow up with something, email them a form, send them something, you gotta pull that from your notes and put it into your task management system. I strongly, strongly discourage leaving tasks in your notes. They belong in your task management system. And then any information that's not task-based then maybe you missed was or was incomplete, now would be your time to fill in those blanks, while the material is fresh in your head. You really wanna return to those notes pretty much as soon as you hang up the call 'cause that's when you're gonna be more likely to fill in the information that you missed. All right, I hope that answer was helpful. I'll leave the link to the note taking power system in the show notes in the description box. Okay, moving on to our second question. This is gonna be really quick and simple, but let me read the question. Hi Katie. I've been listening to your show and I've taken away some helpful lessons for myself in my work. I've gone back to work after years at home and your strategies help me with that transition, so thank you. Well, you're welcome. My question is actually not for me, it's from my daughter. I've been trying to encourage her to listen to your episodes, but she does not listen to podcasts. It's okay. I understand. Um, she has had a rough first year of college and we're both concerned about next year. We anticipate a harder workload in, um, looking for your advice for how to help best, for how to best help her move forward. Looking forward to your response. Thank you in advance. All right. The best way to help a struggling college student. Thank you for this question. I am glad that these episodes have helped you transition back to work, and I'm glad that you see the value in some of the things that we talk about here and how they can help students. I do get that not all students listen to podcasts. If it is helpful, this show is also available on YouTube in video form, if that is more her jam. And also, I'm sorry, your daughter had a rough first year of college and that you're both now in the position of feeling concerned for next year. That is a really common situation that many parents bring to me. They know their kids need something, but they're not exactly sure what it is. Or sometimes the parent, you know, has a strong sense that they know what it is, but the parent themselves isn't equipped to deliver the answer. And so I just wanted to acknowledge that I know what you're feeling and I also know the frustration that your daughter is probably feeling too. I did preface this question by saying my answer's gonna be pretty brief in reality, my answer to this question is very, very deep and has many layers to it, and it would not be brief at all. If I were to answer it here on the show, it would probably take. You know, over an hour. But here's the thing. I already answered this exact question in a free parent training. I've had available now for about over a year. I honestly have links to it everywhere. It's always in my show notes. It's on my website, it's in my social media. It is one of my most significant resources for parents. It's called How to Help Your Student Handle School, like a Pro Without Study Frustration, assignment Overwhelm, or all the Drama. Yes, I have that title memorized. I'm telling you that what I teach parents in that training will probably, it will definitely shift the way that you're viewing your daughter's situation and reveal to you the real reasons she's struggling and it's my bet. It's not at all for the reasons that you think. The training is for parents, but she is welcome to watch it too. You can get that training, like I said in the show notes and my website, but if you wanna go directly to it, it's schoolhabitsuniversity.com/freetraining. I promise you the answers you're looking for are in that free class. And to any parents listening right now who are struggling with the same thing, you know your kid is missing something. Maybe it looks like they're unmotivated or they're not reaching their potential, even though you know they're smart, and even though they know they're smart, this free class is for you too. School habits university.com/freetraining. You just, enter your name and your email and I send it to you immediately. And that is honestly the most thorough answer that I can give you. Okay. And our third and final question is from a working professional who is also a student, or I guess you could say they're a student who is also a working professional. Tomato. Tomato. Let me read the question. Hi Katie. I have a question about accommodations in the workplace. I had an IEP in high school, and then when I went off to college, I met with my professors individually and told them about my A DHD and some other things that I deal with, and most of my professors gave me the accommodations that were helpful. I'm two years into my first job and was doing okay, but I just started grad school and I'm starting to feel overwhelmed again and like I need support. I do not want to ask for workplace accommodations yet, but I'm planning to talk to my professors like I did before. Do you have any advice? All right. This is a great question because it reveals that you're being proactive. You are recognizing some symptoms in yourself that you have experienced before, and you're trying to get a handle on it before it gets away from you and I commend that. It is not uncommon at all for people with A DHD to find a groove, to build some skills, to find a rhythm. And to feel like their A DHD is pretty well managed, but then you throw something new into the mix and it feels like someone took the rug out from underneath you, and it sounds like that might be what you're dealing with right now. You were doing okay at work, but then you started grad school and grad school was the monkey wrench that destabilized you. This can happen with A DHD and it can happen with people with anxiety and other mental health conditions. But I did just wanna normalize that before we dive into the question, I do wanna respect what you said, that you are not looking for workplace accommodations yet. I think that if you had asked me, you know, what's the best way to ask for workplace accommodations, then my answer or, or do you, do you, do I think that you should or shouldn't? I mean, it's not my job to say should or shouldn't, but if you would ask me that directly, my answer would be something different. But I do wanna respect your approach. So I'm not gonna go down that road in my answer today. However, I do wanna say that accommodations for people with A DHD or mental health conditions or other disabilities are legally required in the workplace, under the Americans with Disabilities Act or a DA and a whole bunch of other non-discrimination laws. Employers are legally required to provide what's called reasonable accommodations on the Department of Labor website, they specified that these reasonable accommodations, that's like the actual term that they use for it must be legally provided to qualified employees with disabilities. Qualified employees. So that would mean in most cases, that you need to disclose your A DHD, not in all cases. It really does depend Sometimes you disclose that information to just HR and then they keep it confidential, and then tell your boss, or manager what the accommodations are that you require, right? Every business is different. Is different. But that is a question you have to ask yourself, like, are you willing to disclose? Many of the working professional clients that I have have done that and they are now thriving with the accommodations that their workplace has provided. And I also have plenty of working professionals who like flat out refuse to disclose that information and they're finding other ways of getting supports. Again, that's a choice you're gonna have to make for yourself. Now, if you came back at some point in the future and you asked me that question, I would give you that answer. But back to your actual question, do you have any advice? And I'm thinking, you mean, do I have any advice about talking to your professors?'cause I just said, it sounds like you're not looking, you know, for advice about disclosing the disability at work. So let's stick with the school angle. Yes, I think it is a great idea to talk to your grad school professors and the fact that you receive supports in the past that you know you've benefited from, it's gonna be really helpful here'cause you already have data about what kind of combinations are helpful to you. Because not all accommodations are helpful to everybody. I have so many students with A DHD who benefit from additional time on tests, but then I have a ton of students with A DHD who hate extended time on tests, right? So it sounds like four years of high school maybe and four years of undergrad at college have given you good, solid, clean data about what works for you and what doesn't work for you. And there's a good chance that those same exact accommodations will help you in graduate school as well. Now notice I am intentionally using the word accommodations and not modifications. Now, if we were talking about an IEP in high school, those were modifications. An IEP is an individualized education program that requires schools or teachers to modify the curriculum so that it is accessible to you, and that is different from accommodations. Accommodations are things like preferential seating, maybe extended time, maybe having a paper version of a test instead of a digital one. Right? So modifications are a genuine change to the curriculum or a genuine change to the assessment so that they become accessible to somebody. Those are different from accommodations. Also in IEP is only for students in pre-K through high school. That's no matter what state you live in. You might be wondering, like, Katie, why do you know about this? I have a master's degree in special education. I taught high school special education for years and wrote IEPs for years. So this is like, you know, my jam. But then when you get to college and graduate school, that's something called a 5 0 4. You might already know that because you said you went off to college and you got some accommodations. I'm not sure if you simply, you know, spoke with your professors or if you got a legitimate 5 0 4. But you can be protected by section 5 0 4, which is essentially a law that says schools should provide you with that term, again, reasonable accommodations. It's not a specialized education program. It's reasonable accommodation. So you could either take that approach, you could seek out a legitimate 5 0 4. I'm not sure when your last evaluation was. I know you must have had one to have had an IEP. You need to be evaluated in order to qualify for an IEP. But those usually only last three years. And so even if you had one, you know, the senior year of high school, that would've expired by now because if you went through four years of college, so. If you've had a more recent neuropsych eval and you've had previous copies of your IEP, or maybe you have a 5 0 4, if you did, we have one in undergrad, those would be documents that I would bring with you to your graduate school student services department. You could just start with a phone call or an email asking them what kind of supports they offer students with disabilities, and then ask them what their requirements are. If they say they need evidence of something, well then maybe your former IEP, even if it's expired, a former 5 0 4, maybe your neuro eval results might count as evidence. Again, you are gonna have to check with your particular program, your particular university. If you don't wanna go through a formal 5 0 4 process, then you could just meet with the student services department. And ask what they recommend. It might be that they recommend that you talk to your professors individually, and if that is the case, then I would do it in person. As long as your program is in person and you can do so. If not, try to set up a Zoom call. I wouldn't do this via email unless you have to. Obviously you would've to use email to email documents back and forth, but for the initial meeting, try to have some sort of face-to-face interaction. So what this would look like is going to their office hours or setting up a meeting to talk about being supported in their class. You would make your case, you would say, I have a condition. You can disclose it or not. You can say you have received services in the past and those, um, you know, services or accommodations have enabled you to be successful, and that it would be really helpful if you could be provided with those accommodations so you could be successful in their class. And you can present to them what those accommodations are. Don't make them do the work. Say, I've received X, Y, and Z, could I get that in your class as well? Again, how much you wanna disclose is up to you. And then ultimately it does come down to the professor's discretion unless you have a 5 0 4, in which case that's the final word, if you don't have a formal 5 0 4, it is up to the professor to figure out how to accommodate you. But if you're generally looking for like maybe extended time or preferential seating or maybe a note taker, maybe a, you know, paper version of the test, or digital version of the test instead of paper, things like that, most professors do want you to be successful and they're gonna try to meet you where you're at. Now I do wanna return real fast to workplace accommodations. I know you didn't ask for this, but I do wanna point you to a helpful resource, or in case someone else is listening to this and their interest is peaked by this conversation. There's a website called Jan, JAN. It's a job accommodation network. It's a, um, page off of the Department of Labor website. So I'll leave the link in the description box. It's like jan.org I think it is, but there is a very particular page on that website, that's the link I'll leave below, that I want you to read specifically because it's about accommodations for A DHD in the workplace. That is a very thorough and helpful resource to anyone listening who is considering this or maybe is recognizing themselves in this question and wondering if there is some kind of support they could get at work. And the answer to that is, yes, there is. And I'll leave that link in the description box. All right, my friends, that wraps up today's episode. Whether you are trying to capture critical information on a phone call, maybe support a college student who's struggling or navigate accommodations in a new chapter of life, the common thread today is this Awareness of what you need is the first step, and then you have to take action on it. The tools, the strategies, the resources exist, and it's your job to use them. Don't forget to leave your comments below. If you're watching this on YouTube, follow the show. If you're listening in an app, come find me on Instagram at schoolhabits. Keep showing up. Keep doing the hard work, keep asking the hard questions, and never stop learning.

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Katie Azevedo

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