Shebrew in the City
Shebrew in the City is a podcast exploring all things Jewish. Combining interviews and informational episodes, join Nicole Kelly as she discusses her journey with motherhood, spirituality, and everything from Hanukkah to the Holocaust. Giving a voice to modern Jews and spreading love and joy, whether you're Jewish, Jew-ish, or not anything resembling Jewish at all, there's something here for everyone.
Shebrew in the City
"Survivor" - An Interview with Keren K. Goldenberg
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We trace Keren’s journey from Israel to LA, how immigration shaped her mental health path, and why depth psychology offers tools to understand intergenerational trauma and rising antisemitism. We share practical advice for finding a safe therapist and for turning inherited pain into resilience.
• Soviet Jewish roots, Israeli childhood, move to Los Angeles
• Immigration stress as trauma and its lifelong echoes
• Shift from pre-med to psychology and LMFT licensure
• Why depth psychology goes beyond symptom management
• Dissertation on Soviet antisemitism and cultural complexes
• Epigenetic and social transmission of intergenerational trauma
• Therapy for antisemitism after 10–7 and need for validation
• How to choose a culturally competent therapist
• Parenting with resilience and repairing family narratives
• Balancing practice growth, PhD work, and motherhood
• Keren’s integrative approach: psychodynamic, EMDR, creative tools
• Access, supervision, and building a boutique group practice
You can find Keren at her practice in Los Angeles, California through her website https://sunraypsychotherapy.com/
Visit our sponsor topdogtours.com to book your walking tour today and check them out on social media for offers, discounts, and pictures
Please be sure to follow on Instagram as well as my personal Instagram, which is Shebrew in the City
TopDogTours is your walking tour company. Available in New York, Philly, Boston, & Toronto!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Visiting a city for the first time and not sure what to do? A walking tour is a great place to start. Top Dog Tours is in Boston, Toronto, Philadelphia, and New York City. To book a walking tour, you can visit us at TopdogTours.com and be sure to check out our social media accounts for offers and discounts. Hi everyone, it's Nicole. Before today's episode, I just want to touch base about something I've mentioned before. My Instagram that I started about Holocaust history, which is today in Holocaust History. I started this as a way to educate myself, but with Holocaust distortion denial on the rise, I think it's important to highlight that the Holocaust is not something that happened all at once, but many millions of events that took place over the course of several years. So please be sure to follow on Instagram as well as my personal Instagram, which is She Brew in the City. Super easy to remember. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to Shebrew in the City. This is Nicole Kelly, and today I am talking with Keren Goldenberg, and we're gonna be talking about something I love to talk about, uh intergenerational trauma, as well as something new I haven't talked about before, uh psychology, which is interesting because I took a lot of psych classes in undergrad for someone who was on a psych major, so we'll get to talk about that today. How are you doing tonight?
Keren Goldenberg:I'm good. How are you?
Nicole Kelly:I'm good. We just looked at a day camp for our daughter. So we we took a little bit of a trek up upstate, actually upstate out of the city, and you know, got to see the campus, which was very cool. Um, so on Sunday. So I usually start out by asking a little bit about the person I'm talking to, their background, where they're from, if they grew up somewhere differently, and also a little bit about their Jewish identity and that background as well. So uh where did you grow up? You know, how you know, how did you identify as far as you obviously went to uh Jewish sleepway camp, so you had somewhat of a Jewish upbringing, but let's delve into that a little bit further.
Keren Goldenberg:I'm actually originally from Israel. Um, I was born and raised over there uh to Soviet Jewish parents. So if you know or any of the listeners know anything about Soviet Jewry, um a lot of the Soviet Jews were not really allowed to practice Judaism in its fullness. Um, it was more so done in secret or like done and not talked about. So grew up in a very secular um household, uh, but also grew up in Israel. So I had the Torah classes, learned about all the holidays, learned about religion in the elementary school um system. Um, ended up eventually moving out to um California when I was 10 years old, when um after 2005, when things were getting escalated, my parents decided it was it was time to kind of run to the next destination. Um, they escaped the Soviet Union because of anti-Semitism, and they escaped Israel because of the war. And over here, um I felt a little bit, it took time to find my place really, and um eventually, like, yeah, I was signed up for all the Jewish camps. I did a little bit of Hebrew school. Um towards the end of my childhood was was really surrounded by other people in the Jewish community. Um, so it was nice, and then in terms of home, when we don't we never really went to synagogue, uh, but we celebrated all the holidays and Jewish pride and the Jewish culture was very much instilled in us. So I guess to def when people ask me, like, oh well, what kind of Jew are you? I usually just answer that as traditional, um, very much engulfed in the culture, engulfed in the traditions, uh, but not really attending services on a weekly basis and and things like that. Like, even when I got married, we we opted for an orthodox ceremony um and plan on maintaining a lot of the traditions in my current family as well.
Nicole Kelly:What part of the Soviet Union were your parents from?
Keren Goldenberg:Um, they are from a Ukraine, Nikolaev, specifically, and if anybody listening knows anything about Nikolaev, that's where Lubavitch Arebe is actually from. Fun fact, there is rumors that I'm related to him directly. Um, my great-grandfather's last name was Yanovsky, and um Lubavitch Arebbe's mother's maiden name was Yanovsky. My grandmother made a connection that they were somehow cousins over there, but I've heard some people tell me that that's not the case. So we'll just um just a cool fun fact. Yanovsky line lineage from um from Nikolaev, which is connects me to Lubavitch A Rabbe.
Nicole Kelly:When did they uh leave for Israel?
Keren Goldenberg:94.
Nicole Kelly:Okay.
Keren Goldenberg:So a couple of years after the call Yeah, they left in 94. My parents were kind of the catalyst for that, and my parents were very young. Um, they were late teens um when they decided to move, so they were kind of the pioneers of their family members to like say, like, we don't want to grow up in this country. There is um there was an organization called Betar that helped a lot of Soviet Jews move to Israel. So that's through that organization they they left everything behind and and started fresh in Israel.
Nicole Kelly:Where in California did you guys move when you were you said you were 10? Was it the LA area?
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, yeah. We moved straight to LA. Um, my parents had uh friends here, my dad's best friend um lived here, so it was just an easy transition. Uh the during the time that we were leaving, a lot of my parents' friends were moving to Canada because it was an easier route to go to Canada. But I remember my mom said, I am not moving to the snow. So LA just seemed like the the best choice in terms of of weather and also honestly, community. Um, both the Russian-speaking Jewish community and the Israeli community in LA are very large, um, which was very helpful.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, it can be a bit of a difficult transition. There's a huge kind of swath of people from Israel who moved to our synagogue and my daughter's school after October 7th. And I know some of the kids came in, you know, to the threes program not even speaking English, so it was like a huge transition for them. Did you speak English before you came to California?
Keren Goldenberg:Not by any means to a level of being able to live. Um, so I've taken English classes since kindergarten. I had private English tutors. Uh, before we moved, it increased to like multiple times a week. Um, but it was it was really tough. That the move here was one of the hardest things that I had to do. I had to leave all my friends behind to um come to a country where there was nobody that really understood me. There was one girl in the class that spoke Hebrew, one girl that spoke in the class that knew Russian. The the girl that spoke Hebrew is actually my best friend to this day. Um, but it was it was still tough. It was like it was very isolating. But I learned English pretty quickly. I think moving at 10 years old and being like immersed in school um definitely helps. But I think that's one of the primary things that actually started my mental health struggles. Um, it's that adjustment difficulty, and I never even looked at immigration as a trauma until a therapist pointed it out to me, and she was like, uh, yeah, like that's a pretty big trauma. And I'm like, No, it's not. And now, um, as a trauma specialist and kind of working with so many immigrants, especially a lot of child immigrants, I I do see how that is actually it is a trauma, and it makes sense how it like can catalyst other mental health issues.
Nicole Kelly:I think back to my relatives who came to this country in the early 20th century, and they really didn't talk about what happened before, which also is a type of trauma, is they just kind of shoved all that away, and that was that, and we live here now. Um, and I think because of the generation, they just didn't talk about how they felt about everything.
unknown:Yeah.
Nicole Kelly:That was kind of a good segue. You already answered this a little bit, but what but what um what what first attracted you to the field of psychology? Was it through your own therapy, kind of coping with things that you were dealing with, or was it later on?
Keren Goldenberg:Um, I was always kind of the friend to go to um when people had problems. Um I also found the field of psychology absolutely fascinating. But you know, when I was first going into college, I wanted to be a doctor because, you know, you want to be a doctor or a lawyer because they make the most amount of money. And I was really struggling in those pre-med classes and just kind of like being very unhappy with that path, and I really enjoyed my psychology classes, and I thought that the topics were fascinating, and um, I realized that like okay, I cannot be doing anything that has to do with the gory touching people, medical uh stuff, not me. Also, I wasn't sure I'd make a great lawyer, and I thought really hard about it, and I was like, I think that therapy would really be um the way to go for me. I specifically wanted to be a professor as well, and that is still on my list of long things to do. Um, but definitely the field of psychology and like the understanding the human psyche and how emotions work and and and really making an impact in people's lives. I I really felt called to that.
Nicole Kelly:So you finished undergrad and then you decided you were gonna get your master's in psychology as well, or what did you get your master's in?
Keren Goldenberg:Yes. Yes. So I finished my bachelor's in psychology and went on to a clinical um master's program. So I became a licensed marriage and family therapist. Um, and then a year passed and I was felt like something was missing, and found the PhD program that I was in and applied to that um and decided to do that. So now I'm pursuing a non-clinical PhD, my PhD specifically in-depth psychology, uh, with an emphasis in integrative therapy and healing practices. So it more so adds on to the master's. Um, don't need to get a license again, um, and just enhances and informs my practice uh significantly.
Nicole Kelly:So you said it's a non-clinical PhD. A c what is the difference? I I don't I'm not sure. So, and I'm sure there's other people listening who aren't sure. So, what's the difference?
Keren Goldenberg:So a PhD in clinical psychology or a psy D, which I think most programs are a psy D in clinical psychology, uh, you become a psychologist, um, and you are then able to like do psych assessments and um things like that, as opposed to a non-clinical PhD. So this doesn't give anybody a license to practice. So I've had cohort mates who weren't therapists already, they cannot go out and practice therapy. Um, they can use the studies to enhance whatever career they're in, uh, but they cannot be therapists. So my even though I'm gonna have a doctorate, I'm still going to be an LMFT.
Nicole Kelly:Interesting.
Keren Goldenberg:If that makes sense.
Nicole Kelly:Interesting, all these different classification stuff that I had no idea about. So you you were talking about how it's so it's so much. It's a lot, it's a lot. Um, so um you talked about this kind of enhancing your work. I know not many people actually get get their doctorates. Like, what was specifically the driving force behind the PhD? Because most therapists, I know they don't they just have their master's and you know don't necessarily think it's necessary, but you'd mentioned that it was really helpful in your practice.
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, so that is definitely a multi-answer question, uh, question for me. So, number one, I feel like in your average master's program, you really get like more of the surface level. You learn a little bit about each modality, but the modalities really focus on the behavioral or quote unquote, like the evidence-based practice, the the mainstream stuff that the insurance companies love to reimburse for because it it is a clear plan from A to Z. I never really aligned with that perspective on therapy. Um, I never felt like for myself, just knowing how to cognitive restructure and do breathing exercises can really help a person deeply. It can help as a as a tool for sure, but I needed something deeper. And when I found the depth psychology, um, I thought it was fascinating because it really teaches you how to get to the psyche. Um, it talks about psychology in a more in-depth and more grand approach because we're not just looking at this is the person and this is their symptoms. We learn how to identify a person's whole life. So it's a very psychodynamic program, if anybody knows what that is. So we're looking at the person's life, we're looking at their family of origin, we're looking at the archetypal, um, the symbolic, the what is going on that has been repressed, um, and what is the shadow material within that, and like what does the person's ego want, and what are the complexes within each of us? Basically, it like shows that the person is a lot more complex than just being like, okay, well, you're feeling like that, just stop feeling like that. Great, everything is solved. Um, so that really attracted me to that program. So I felt like I really needed that doctrine in order to get that education. But at the same time, I know I could have read a few books, I could have done my own research. I think what really drew me to actually pursuing this um is the proving to myself that I can do it, um, and to make all of my ancestors' struggles and the immigration and everything like worth it. Um, and even though I wanted to study intergenerational trauma going into this, now I realize that that's an intergenerational trauma response. Um just so it's like back there we weren't allowed, and we were told that we were nothing, and like basically the we we were the bottom intergenerationally, whether that is my parents, grandparents', great-grandparents, or great-great-grandparents' generation, and now I'm here in a place where I could achieve that, and why wouldn't I? Uh, so I really wanted that. I wanted to prove to myself that I could, and then also like the the cherry on top of all of that is I do want to eventually um be immersed more in academia and teach, and it is well known that having a PhD in the field is is um you have to is an enhancement, yeah.
Nicole Kelly:Yeah, you can technically teach with a master's, but they want a PhD. So that makes complete sense, especially if you want to teach. Yeah. So we've been talking a lot about intergenerational trauma. I want to talk a little bit about your dissertation topic, you know, how you landed on that, exactly what it is for those of for those of us listening who uh need a little more detail and how you plan on conducting research for that.
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, so um I going into the program, I knew I wanted to study some sort of intergenerational trauma topic. I wasn't 100% sold on what it was. Um, I spent the beginning of my career uh working for a couple of almost a year uh with Holocaust survivors and their children. Uh mostly I was working with the Holocaust survivors, but a lot of the work with was conversation with their adult children who were taking care of them. You know, they're all like 85 plus. So at first I was thinking, you know what, I'm gonna do intergenerational trauma of the descendants of Holocaust survivors. And it didn't sit right. Number one, there's already so much research about it.
Nicole Kelly:So it's a lot of research. Yeah, I'm obsessed with it. There's like three different types of classes you can take in high school about that.
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, there's there's so much. So I just felt like number one, do I really want to study the Holocaust for so long? And number two, what would I really be contributing to a field that already has so much? I mean, even the field of intergenerational trauma, it started with studying the descendants of Holocaust survivors. So I was like, okay, no, like I I need something else. And I really was like sitting and thinking hard on it, and I'm like, huh. What about like the Russian Jewish, Russian-speaking Jews, Soviet Jews population? I was like, they have so much intergenerational trauma from growing up in the Soviet Union, and beyond that, the anti-Semitism that they experienced is so so much. Um, so this was probably around like June May, June, July, August-ish um of 2023, that I solidified my topic and I basically was like, okay, I'm going to study the intergenerational trauma of Soviet anti-Semitism, and I'm going to look at what are the cultural complexes within the Russian-speaking Jewish community. Oh, and right before that, um, so in between the Holocaust and between me kind of broadening this topic, I wanted to study is perfectionism in the Russian-speaking Jewish community a byproduct of anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union? And then I was like, okay, like it's not just perfectionism, there's other stuff. So basically came to the conclusion I want to study the anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union. I want to study how it impacts first-generation Russian-speaking Jews today, and what are these cultural complexes that are present within our community that are driving a lot of our hardship and a lot of the things that we are struggling with. It's not ours to carry, it is basically a byproduct of years and years and years of discrimination for our parents, grandparents, and et cetera.
Nicole Kelly:I think it's something that we still carry. I'm currently in a class about uh it's called Organizational Landscape of Anti-Semitism, which focuses on advocacy groups. And I feel like everybody anytime we talk about anti-Semitism at school, people bring their stuff with them. And, you know, I write about this a lot. I talk a lot about some of the things my mother said when I was growing up. And an article I read last week talked about how the golden age of Judaism is over in America because there was a golden age in America. And I kind of grew up in the 90s when Seinfeld was the most popular show on TV, and there were a lot of celebrities, and it was very, it was very mainstream culture. And I think in a post 10 7 world, all of this is kind of popping up in different ways, you know. Like the fact that the camp we were just looking at, they had to point out that they don't advertise where it's located. And I was like, oh, good. Whereas, you know, in the 90s, that was not something that was a big concern for people. You know, obviously, like in some places you said your parents left the Soviet Union in the 90s, but in America, it was not, you know, being Jewish was at least where I lived, very mainstream. And that's all kind of resurfaced. And my mom is kind of always like, Well, I told you. Um, anyways, so going back to kind of what you were saying about um, you know, I liked you talk, you talked about that was theirs to carry, it's not ours to carry. Um how do you plan on, you know, conducting all this research? Are you interviewing people? Are they sitting on therapy sessions? Like, I've never talked to somebody who got their PhD in psychology, so I don't really know how that works.
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, so um to kind of piggyback on that, what I'm what I really meant by that, and and then you answered that it's still for us to carry. Yes, we're still carrying that. And um, like I mentioned, my topic was chosen before October of 2023. So I had gone into this thinking that I'm just going to be writing about history and mental health, not realizing how antisemitism is about to skyrocket. Um, so it is, yeah, it is activating. It is, we're still carrying that. And what I plan how I plan to conduct my research is I plan on asking people um a series of questions about their upbringing, about their parental discipline styles, about what they know about their history, um, what they don't know about their history. So, what you mentioned earlier about your ancestors not really talking about what had happened in the 20s, all of that contributes. Those those black holes, those those things that we don't know, the question marks, are just as impactful as the things that we do know. So, what I'm trying to look at is basically a person's like full-on history, and then I'm going to be looking at their pressures, their behaviors, their goals, and seeing how that impacts them. And unfortunately, I think that this research will be so applicable for the next generation, you know, our children, um, with everything that is that has been happening. Um, so yeah, we'll see. It's all ever evolving. I'm right now in the depth of my lit review about history, and whenever I see history repeating itself, it just makes me cringe and angry, and it's uh it's um it's great, but it's not great.
Nicole Kelly:Well, it is the anniversary of Kristalnach today, 87 years ago.
unknown:Yeah.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, no, I get it. It's it's it's definitely a trend, um, especially in regards to anti-Semitism. But kind of like jumping back into your contemporary practice, you know, not focusing on a little bit in the past, but do you think it's important that patients talk about anti-Semitism in therapy?
Keren Goldenberg:Oh yes. Oh yes. Before October 7th, I didn't really advertise that I work with anti-Semitism. I did have on the directories that I'm Jewish, that I speak Hebrew, that I speak Russian, that attracted people who were struggling with anti-Semitism. Um, and then as I went deeper into my research and kind of was working with so many clients experiencing anti-Semitism, um, I realized that that is another part of my calling. And now I actually advertise and I've done workshops and I'm fully immersed and I've done uh trainings by other people um who work with anti-Semitism. And it's it's so so important because people are really, really impacted. Um I have a big chunk of my current caseload specifically seeking therapy for the experiences of anti-Semitism that they are going through. Um losing friends, being called all sorts of derogatory terms that I'm not even going to repeat on the podcast. Um alienation, uh, discrimination, somatic symptoms that are coming up that they are so lost and confused about. So talking and processing these things in therapy is crucial not only for them and their well-being, but also for the both collective and intergenerational repair that needs to be done. Like, I really hope that the things that I talk to one-on-one with a client experiencing anti-Semitism, then they will be able to relay that information and and be a shoulder um to cry on and and help if somebody else is experiencing the same thing. So it is so interesting.
Nicole Kelly:You mentioned that there's been a huge uptick since 10-7. Um, do you think it's because people are not comfortable seeing therapists who aren't Jewish, maybe because they're concerned about anti-Semitism or they feel some sort of communal bond, or maybe both?
Keren Goldenberg:I think it's both. Um, so I have a few people who have come to me after their own therapists have either said something directly anti-Semitic to them um or gaslit them or invalidated their experience. Um, you know, there's like this theme of traumatic invalidation that's going on. Um people are not feeling safe with some therapists because therapists are projecting in session um things and it's non-ethical and not okay, but it's still happening. And like, right, that's the that's the reality that we live in. So people are are seeking um number one, people are searching for new providers who will not invalidate their experience, who will not say anti-Semitic things to them directly. And I think people are also seeking therapists that they know that they can safely talk to and not feel that, and just the cultural competence, um, I think is important for many people. Where they know that if they come to me, they don't need to explain what is happening because they know that I'm living through that myself as a Jew, and also because I specialize in this and I am working with these things every day. And it's like the things that they're saying to me, I I understand right away. They don't need to go and and give me the the historical context or the background of the situation.
Nicole Kelly:That makes sense. No, I I completely understand. I I feel like I trust my doctors, I really like my doctors, but if something was said that was kind of I I had um I had a an experience in a doctor's office the day of the election where someone said something, and I kind of called specifically because it's a practice and said, I'm not gonna see this person again, am I? And that was just like a minor thing. So I completely understand uh, you know, somebody being with a therapist even for a long time and kind of feeling betrayed a little bit. And therapy is not a place where someone should be passing judgment on an entire group of people. We're talking about politics, to be honest.
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, we're we're talking about politics, but then what happens also with like the traumatic invalidation of like, well, no, not you're imagining it, nothing is going on, like and and basically like gaslighting the person and telling them that their emotions aren't legitimate and it's a fantasy that they're living in, and it is so so hurtful, and and you're right, very betraying for sure.
Nicole Kelly:Well, thank you for being a person that people can go to, and at the end we'll talk about how people can reach out to you if they're interested. You focus on specifically, maybe because that's your background, Jewish intergenerational trauma. Why is it specifically important for Jews to focus on this in therapy, as opposed to, I mean, maybe there's other groups that should do this as well, but why specifically Jews?
Keren Goldenberg:So, um I don't just focus on intergenerational trauma with Jews actually. Um, any client that comes through my door, whether they are a minority or an immigrant family, or but even I will focus on it with multi-generation Americans who have been here. I focus on it with every single client. Um, but why it's specifically important to Jews, is because our DNA has felt this in every generation. So when people are feeling the symptomology, whether they're feeling it in their body or they're feeling it through their behaviors, or their mental health is declining for whatever reason, or they are very much triggered by everything that is going on. Um, I really go down the path of like, well, let's talk about your parents, let's talk about your grandparents, let's talk about your great-grandparents. What is their story? And when it comes to intergenerational trauma, there is two modes of transmission. There is the epigenetic, which is essentially our ancestors' DNA leaves sticky notes to the next generation. So they will let us know when we are in danger, we need to run. Um, and that sticky note will be on the DNA. It doesn't modify DNA, it's just a um it's it's basically like a marker. So that's number one, right? So we've inherited these messages about what to do when we feel a certain way. Um, and number two, it's the social transmission. So, what are the family stories? What are the family narratives? What are the family rules um about this? So it becomes very much that a person may think, okay, I it's 2025, things are out of control. Um, but like I'm fine, like my job is secure, and my friends are not um that bad, right? Then maybe I lost a few anti-Semitic friends along the way, but still, why am I feeling like this? People are con people were confused, I think. I think as as maybe with all of the um scholars and media, there's been a little bit of explanation, I feel like has been over the last two years that kind of explains it. But what a lot of people um are are sort of struggling with is like they they can feel it in their bodies, their emotional response, their triggers are so high. Um so analyzing this and kind of giving people that information, like just having the conversation is healing within of itself, and then when we go into like further healing modalities, um and ways to connect and process and reprocess, then that that brings a lot more peace and knowledge to it. Um, so it's just so important because no matter where your ancestors are from, and if you we go back multiple, multiple generations, everybody has experienced something. So the amount of intergenerational trauma that both our DNA holds and our stories know is so large that it is so so important to talk about in therapy, and it will help the person as is, and then also like my hope with a lot of the um people who are coming to me before they have kids or who have young kids, like, right, it's that you're doing the work for the next generation as well. So repairing that working on your own intergenerational trauma and then moving into parenting in an informed way, that your kids will still inherit the genetic, but at least you will change the narrative and it will be very I love to focus on the resilience, so like the intergenerational trauma turned into intergenerational resilience and getting that pulled out, and and for us to instill that in our children, um, or whatever way to like if somebody's working with with teenagers or with kids, um, even those summer camps, right? Like really teaching the collective how to pull that resilience and not let the haters impact us so much.
Nicole Kelly:It's very important, I feel like, especially if one is active on social media, you're constantly seeing either things from people who aren't Jewish or Jewish people who are highlighting things that are happening and could be extremely overwhelming, uh especially if it's in kind of the sphere of your job. Yes. So uh speaking of children, you have a young child. How I I'm curious as to how other people balance kind of this work mom student life because sometimes I, you know, I had a woman ask me the other day if I worked, and I just laughed because I was like, that's all I do. Um, what how do you find a balance with that? You know, doing as you know, as a mental health professional, how do you find a mental balance for that for yourself?
Keren Goldenberg:It's it's definitely tough. Um, so I like I have help, honestly. Um like I have I have my mom and I have a nanny um that they they come and they watch her during the day so I can work, um, and then one day a week I fully focus on my dissertation. So I come in the into the office in the morning and I just write all day. Um so it's it's a lot, it's definitely I think embedding time for self-care. So I try to make time to go to a massage once every couple of weeks, and um once my daughter goes to sleep at night, like I'll just like chill and and try not to do more work. But I think it's just about the coordination, childcare, things like that. It's it's definitely a lot. I'm I'm I'm burnt out burnt out and exhausted at all times.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, but the but eventually you see the light at the end of the tunnel um because you know it's it's worth it.
Keren Goldenberg:Yes, yes. I just I feel like things will be a lot easier when I finally finish the the dissertation. Um, and yeah, we'll we'll see how life uh I feel like I'm such a type A personality. I I like literally have like a bucket list of things that I want to achieve and accomplish in life that I always say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll rest one XYZ, and then I don't. But that's that's classic perfectionism for you.
Nicole Kelly:So I'm very type A as well. What are some of those things that you have as far as career goals? So we talked about you obviously want to finish your PhD, you want to teach what other plans do you have on that bucket list?
Keren Goldenberg:Uh so right now I I have two associates on my team, both very lovely. I would love to expand my practice on race psychotherapy um a little bit more. I still want to keep it very boutique and high quality. Um, very big emphasis on high quality. Um, and um I would love to one day be on a TED talk. Um, I want to eventually become a Jungian analyst, but I'm setting that as like my 20-year goal. Not not doing that anytime soon. Um like other small little I want to I want to start offering intensives either in 2026 or 2027. Um definitely go more into besides just being a professor at a university, I would love to teach this material to other therapists for CEUs. I've already done that, I've done that through partnership, um, where I came in and like did a one-hour CEU, but I would love to have a more comprehensive training program in in treating of intergenerational trauma in all populations. Um whatever also, yeah, like training stuff, um, offering that. And I have this like dream that will probably never come to fruition. But I would love to open a feline assisted psychotherapy center. So I have like little, it will be like a cat rescue/slash therapy center, and people can adopt the cats, but I think there's lots of legal and ethical issues with that.
Nicole Kelly:So look, my daughter can be your first client because I know from the fact that I study the Holocaust, she already has intergenerational trauma. She literally, like, it's a whole thing. Yeah, and she wants a cat. So you might have your first client if you open that. We're big animal people, but we're more dog people, and she keeps asking for a cat. So by the time you're ready to do that, she might be ready to come talk about her crazy Holocaust-obsessed mother and adopt a cat.
Keren Goldenberg:I love that. I love that, yeah. So, yeah, we'll see how that turns that turns out. That might be a fantasy, more so, but maybe one day, maybe I'll just open up.
Nicole Kelly:But there's so much research in how animals are helpful.
Keren Goldenberg:Oh, yes, yes. Next to the therapist. 100%.
Nicole Kelly:Yes, right next to each other. You had mentioned you started your own practice with a couple other therapists. What how did that start? And you know, what you mentioned that you wanted to keep it small and uh, you know, intimate, but but why did you decide to do that to begin with?
Keren Goldenberg:So I was solo for for a while. Um and when I came back from my maternity leave, I also I used to take insurance. Um, and then unfortunately, taking insurance um is not the most sustainable way to to be a therapist. It is blame the blame the systems, don't blame us. Um, so when I came back from maternity leave, I realized I could not see as much clients as I was seeing before because I was working from morning to night um almost every day. And I realized that as a mother of a young baby, that's just not possible. So what I decided to do was cut my my own caseload down so then I can be there for her. But um, so I pretty much like my rates are are average to what California is, but because I know that so many people um are looking for sliding scale, um, that's number one. Number two, I had personally, I had not the best experience in supervision when I was first starting out. So I wanted, I've always wanted to be a supervisor and be a really good supervisor. Um, so it's kind of twofold, right? I want to supervise, I want to make good therapists, um, and I want to be more accessible to people who are are seeking out and reaching for help and can't afford my rate. So that's why I hired um my first two, and hopefully looking to expand in the near future. In California, each supervisor is allowed to have six associates. Um, so kind of hoping for that to to stay to stay the number. Um and yeah, so but it's I like I love supervising, and and that wearing that hat as well has been a very meaningful addition to my practice.
Nicole Kelly:What would be your advice to somebody who is seeking therapy for the first time, maybe because they're experiencing anti Semitism, maybe because they're dealing with anti, you know, intergenerational trauma or for whatever reason, what would be your advice to somebody, you know, especially an adult maybe who's listening and has been thinking about therapy but has been kind of nervous about this? What would be your advice to them?
Keren Goldenberg:What you resist persists. Um That's the Jungian um motto. Going to therapy is very tough because you have to open up old wounds, you have to be vulnerable, you have to sit with a lot of complex issues, and it's scary. I would say the advice that I would have is definitely do the 15-minute consultations with multiple people, see who you vibe with, um, see what therapist um your intuition trusts. The intuition piece is a really big one. Um, and do your research on them, um, look at how how they present themselves and and see if you like that. Um, and don't be afraid of the process. Um, therapy can is hard, but it can be so beautiful and transformational. And why not start a beautiful healing process now? And don't don't be afraid to ask your therapist all the questions. A lot of some therapists still operate in the no self-disclosure arena, but for me personally, and for I think a lot of therapists these days, that they are open to answering some questions, not all, don't ask them very personal questions, but if certain factors are important to you, ask. Like if it's if you're not sure and you really want somebody that knows anti-Semitism, you can ask them, do you have lived experience experiencing anti-Semitism, or do you have the cultural competence to work with somebody who's experiencing anti-Semitism? So don't be afraid to ask those questions and don't be afraid of the process.
Nicole Kelly:Do you think there's an end to therapy? Or in your opinion, is it a process that goes on indefinitely? Because I've heard I have feelings about this that I've talked about with therapists. So I want to know what your thought is. Is therapy just never ending because people are always dealing with new issues, or is there an end, quote unquote, to therapy?
Keren Goldenberg:I think that you can look at it at a both perspective. I think there's different seasons of life, and um, I actually use the seasons of life um, like analogy to a lot of things, even like the end of friendships that a lot of people have been struggling with. I'm like, well, yeah, this person was great in this season of life, and now they're not anymore, and you're on to the next season or the next chapter. I think that being in therapy your whole life can be very useful. Um, and I think not everybody necessarily always needs that. Um, also having a break could be nice. So I would say it really depends on what you are looking for. If you're coming to therapy for a very specific reason that you need to work through, and then you feel like, okay, I ended this, like I've processed, I work through it, and you're like, okay, like I'm done for now. That's great, but definitely don't discount, like, if if something pops up a couple of months later or a couple of years later, and you're like, you know what, I think I need to go back, go back. It's not like oh, I've already done this, I don't need to do it again. So kind of both. You can you can have therapy in each season of your life and take breaks in between, and um, and there's nothing wrong with being a lifer in therapy either.
Nicole Kelly:Can you talk to me a little bit more about your approach as a therapist and maybe what makes you unique or the sim is similar to other people?
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, so my approach is is heavily, heavily trauma-informed and psychodynamic. So I look at the whole life perspective. I think I touched a little bit on that when we first started the dialogue. So kind of bridging in the person's whole life, all of their experiences. I don't rush people to to face their traumas, even though I do feel like a lot of people who come to me are ready to go there and they vocalize that. Um, so I I do a lot of the depth explanatory work. I sprinkle in the solution focused and the skills-based stuff and give people like the practical tools to use. Also use a lot of creative interventions um when needed. So I ask people to even like connecting to people's ancestors, I will ask them to connect to the hobby that their ancestors did in order to kind of work on that and bring joy to themselves. Um, and really use a holistic and integrative approach with every single person. Every person is unique, every story is unique, and I'm just here to guide people on their healing journey. People have it within themselves to really heal themselves. Um, and I hope to help people find that through depth work and EMDR as well.
Nicole Kelly:Do you think people find that a little frustrating? Because I've experienced this as well, where you're like ready to get to work and there's all these like intake appointments where you're taught, and I get that it's necessary, but like I kind of just like jump and be like, I want to talk about this. Whereas like the first few sessions are like you said, about history, especially family history when it comes to certain things. Is that something that other people struggle with? I'm hoping you say yes, that it's not just me.
Keren Goldenberg:It's not just you, and it's also so I only do one intake session where I ask like all of the like legal rule out questions that I need to to kind of assess for. Yes. And and then I let people talk about what's going on in the present. Um, and then I help them connect, like, so I will ask them, like, let's say you're like really stressed about your work situation right now. Yes, let's talk about your work situation, and then I will ask you a question that gets brings you back to how you handled things as a kid, and that's where we really start that deeper work. So I'm not really like, okay, let's let's talk about your your time from three to five, and then the next session, let's talk about six to eight. Um, no, it's more like let's talk about the present, and I'm gonna help you identify patterns and identify triggers that relate back to either your childhood, your upbringing, or the intergenerational piece. So, yes, you're not the only one that's frustrated. Um, and definitely don't just focus on like history gathering for multiple sessions. Um, it's more of like a kind of like a flow from the present to the past, from the present to the past. And um, I know not many therapists are like that, um, or at least not the ones that I have gone to or interacted with, um, except like maybe sometimes the one I've gone to. Um, but really it's it's about talking about the present and connecting it to the past, not just dwelling in the past.
Nicole Kelly:So this next section is my ripoff of the actor's studio. They are short form questions. We don't need a long answer, they're just quick get to know you type things. Uh, what is your favorite Yiddish word? Um what is your favorite Jewish holiday?
Keren Goldenberg:I I okay. I feel like I'm being super cliche with it, but Hanukkah, because I absolutely love latkas and donuts.
Nicole Kelly:Like, j like That's a that's a that's a legitimate thing.
Keren Goldenberg:I I know, but I just feel like I feel like that's like the most known holiday, so it's like I feel like a fraud saying that, but no, it's just Hanukkah is the best.
Nicole Kelly:If you were to have about mids for today and were to have a big party, what would the theme be?
Keren Goldenberg:Hmm. Um maybe like um all pink candy sparkle one. I don't know. Like I feel like that's not very much my personality anymore, but I feel like if I were to do things over again, it would definitely be something like very grand and very, very, very on point with decor and things like that. My bot my original bot mitzvah was just in a hall in a Chinese restaurant, so I had I guess a Chinese-themed bot mitzvah.
Nicole Kelly:That's that's some one I have not gotten before. Uh, what profession other than your own would you want to attempt?
Keren Goldenberg:Oh, easy. A chef. In a different in a different life, I'd be a chef. And I would open like a very bougie breakfast cafe.
Nicole Kelly:If heaven is real and God is there to welcome you, what would you like to hear him say?
Keren Goldenberg:I would like to hear him say that my ancestors were there supporting me throughout my whole way, um, and that I made an impact on lots of people's lives, and that I lived a good ethical life and that I left an impact.
Nicole Kelly:So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. If someone was interested in getting a hold of you to find more information about your practice or possibly working with you, how would they get that information? How could they get a hold of you?
Keren Goldenberg:Yeah, so I'm licensed in California. I have an in-person office in Los Angeles, and I also work virtually in Florida, Virginia, and Idaho. Um, and my website is sunraysychotherapy.com. You can also find me by looking me up on Google, Karen Goldenberg. It is Karen with an E. K-E-R-E-N. Um G-O-L-D-E-N-B-E-R-G. And um make sure to put my initial in the middle of that, so Karen K Goldenberg. And I'm also on Instagram with those same and TikTok with the same name. So Karen.k.goldenberg on Instagram and TikTok. Um, but my website would probably be the easiest way to get a hold of me, and that is sunrayspsychotherapy.com again.
Nicole Kelly:Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk with me about one of my favorite subjects and teach me some new things.
Keren Goldenberg:Uh thank you so, so much for for having me.
Nicole Kelly:Uh, this is Nicole Kelly and this is Finch Deep Rue in the City. Looking for tips and tricks on a new city? Top Dog Tours is the best place to check out walking tours. We are in Boston, Philadelphia, Toronto, and New York City. Visit us on topdogtours.com to book your tour today and check us out on social media for offers, discounts, and pictures.
