Raw, Real, and Kinky: Life Behind the Power Exchange

#086 “Do you really live like that every day?” In this episode, we're sharing a special interview from the Kink Your Way podcast with Leann Herron. We talk about BDSM as a lifestyle, growing a kink business, breaking shame, and what it’s really like behind the scenes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey there, I'm Alessandra, and today's episode is a little different. I'm sharing a podcast interview I did with my friend and fellow Kink coach and one of my students, Leanne Heron from KinkYourWay.com. We talk about everything from BDSM as a lifestyle to how kink helped our relationships to what it's really like growing a shame-free business in a world that still doesn't take us seriously. It's honest, it's personal, and it's full of behind-the-scenes stories about how we built our platforms, found our voices, and learned to stop hiding the kinky parts of ourselves. So if you've ever wondered what it really takes to live and lead in this space, this is the episode. Enjoy. Welcome to the Dom Sub Living Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

So can you share with us how you got started in the BDSM lifestyle and what drew you to become an educator?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Yeah, so um me and my husband, we've been married now for over 20 years. Um very long time we got married young. But from the very beginning, we were just always kinky, um, like to an extreme. Like we like we were not vanilla at all. But there was no like rhyme or reason with anything, but we also had like a lot of tensions and arguments and things like that. So we had come across BDSM once and learning about DOM sub dynamics, and it was just like everything clicked. It was like exactly what we were wanting because like we would go to see counselors, and you know, they would tell us, you know, oh, you need to have this equal partnership that you know you need to, you know, communicate in this really, you know, dry way almost. And we were wanting like passion and drama, and so it's like we were like creating that in the wrong way, but when we found BDSM, it was allowing us to still have excuse me, that like drama and power exchange, and just you know, have a more fulfilling relationship. And and we knew like we didn't want to be, you know, equals. Obviously, we have equal rights. Our our my needs and wants are just as important as his needs and wants, but we really wanted this power exchange that felt right to us. It's not right for everyone, so I don't want to, you know, say this is what you need to do to have a happy relationship. But the more we started learning more and more, taking classes, going to events, it just was like what we were missing our whole lives, you know, even as individuals, um, this is what we were wanting. And so I just, you know, dove right in. And just the more we started getting involved, you know, the more people started asking us questions, the more we started teaching them formally. And it was just like we couldn't shut up about the stuff we were learning. Um, we just became so passionate about it. Um, and so that's why like I really advocate for BDSM because I could see how much it's changed my life, how much it's changed my husband's life, and how much it's changed our relationship. And if I could help other people do that too, then you know, I feel like I'm doing a good job. You know, helping people improve their lives, you know, not so many people can say that they do that. Um, and especially through something like an alternative lifestyle. So I'm really like fortunate to have found BDSM and kind of found my little niche into it and been able to help so many people.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Absolutely. Um, and like I'm right there with you. It was such, I'm so passionate about it. Like once I found it, once I saw, you know, the core tenets of it, once I gotta put those into play, into you know, our relationship and how we communicate. And for me, learning that I had a voice, um, which I never really felt like I had one in my previous marriage. Um, and not only that I have a voice, but that I'm expected to use it. Um, so you know, the communication is such a huge key. Um, but but all of it is just so exciting. I'm like you, I kind of want to like shout it from the rooftops. And um, you know, having a business now and having the podcast is kind of my way to get to do that. I get to share my passion for it. And like you, I just hope it inspires other people to to look into it with curiosity. Um, and hopefully it'll, you know, um also if not spark their interest, it'll show them a little bit more um outside of what they thought kink was.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, yeah. Breaking down norms um and just the taboo around it, I think is so important. Um, if we had more people on the outside who knew about this and just didn't didn't know like the porn or the fifty shades of gray, that they knew that there was like real people, real families that were doing this, I think things would change change drastically in how you know we're accepted as kinky people.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

You mentioned um, like when you first got in, uh, did you ever attend um like sub-munches or did you guys go as a couple and attend munches? How active are you in the community? Or is it just kind of you guys?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I will say, like, I'll preface this with saying, like, I'm a huge introvert. So like I'm not jumping up and down to go to as many like groups as I can. Like, like that's my Dom's thing, Jay. He's he's the extrovert. He is very into that. But I would go to you know, sub munches, he'd go to Dom munches, we go to both together as a couple. Um, we're from the San Francisco Bay Area, and so there was a ton of stuff out there. Wicked Grounds was super helpful in our journey. Um, and just the whole community out there as a whole. It's you know, education in BDSM and Kink is a lot more open than it is in other areas. And so, yeah, you know, going to clubs, going to events, but I was definitely not like going like every night. Like it was more like I I would go, you know, once every other week, once a month, and you know, he would go more often, but um, and report back. And I'm still that way, I'm still shy.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

So um, yeah, when I first found the community, um, like you know, and as I've said, you know, I was really blessed with running a good community. Um, and even now, you know, six years, seven years later, that community is still standing, they're still helping people, they're still welcoming. And it was nice to, you know, be able to return back to community after the pandemic and start attending munches again. Um I try to go, they only have them once a month here. So I try to go to those, but they're pretty late in the evening. They end way beyond um my sir's time that he needs to go to bed because he gets up so early. Um, but I have found friends who now know, and so now they're curious and they're interested and they want education, so they go with me. Um, and so that um has been wonderful because I've been able to bring more people into the community so they can see, you know, we're all normal people, we all have jobs and careers and kids and families, and um but we all have this space where we can get together for education. Um, and then they also have like a monthly play party that's usually somebody's house. Uh, we lost our local dungeon to the pandemic. Um, I'm always hopeful that one will come back, but because we lost it, you know, my sir and I decided that we had no reason not to have our own play space. We even built our own St. Andrew's Cross in our driveway.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Um, and and now you need to create your own dungeon. You're charge in admission and everything.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I I think I'm gonna use that space more for education. Um, but you know, I think if the liability wasn't so crazy around having a dungeon, I might consider it down the road.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yes, I'm sure there is a huge liability that goes with that.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

I can't imagine. So, how did you identify the need for BDSM education? And what motivated you to kind of fill that gap? Was it just the, you know, as you started talking about it, it started gaining interest. But how did you like really identify that need?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

I think it was when I started moving from like in-person stuff to looking what was online. That's when I was like kind of shocked. Like, you know, you've seen FetLife, and Fet Life is full of like dick pics and tons of stuff. And it's like when you're trying to learn, like that's not the most conducive, at least for me. Um, but so I'm also a I have a degree in journalism. So I used to be a journalist, and so like writing is like one of my passions, and it's also like one of my pet peeves. Like, I notice things a lot. So I'd be online reading other people's blogs, reading other people's websites, and I was just constantly saying, like, that's wrong, that's wrong, you know, and you know, and constantly saying, like, I can create something better, I can write something better. So my Dom was the one that was just like, well, then you need to create something better. But um, so I mean, it was the layout, like I said, how fat life is, and just you know, how unprofessional some of the sites were, but just also there is a lot of misinformation out there, a lot of toxic, harmful advice. Um, so I wanted to be different. Um, and I just really wanted to bring a sense of professionalism. Like from the very beginning, I wanted to set myself apart as being more professional, like being the professional one, that like I'm your go-to expert. Um, that, you know, like you said, if you're, you know, if you have this vanilla friend and they may be interested in it, that people are okay sending my website to them and saying, hey, you know, if you're interested, you might want to check this out. You're not gonna do that with FET Life, you know, when the friend's just gonna get a ton of porn, you know. So it's like I wanted to be something different, something professional that people could take seriously, um, but also be a genuine source of education. Um, so so that was really my, you know, goal with it was just want seeing what was already out there and then wanting to, you know, put my perspective on it.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

And you have definitely done that. Um as far as like I, when I'm eating with clients um or even with friends, uh kind of my passion and my mission with both my coaching and my king coaching is to provide resources to quality education and quality resources. And maybe that's my opinion of quality. Um, but at the same time, you know, the core people that are out there teaching that I have been following for years and years, I see that continuity, the accurate information. And so, you know, I I don't even think twice about sharing out your information or Sunny's information, you know, get people listening to podcasts. I think that's a great way to get people started in a way that nobody knows what they're doing. You know, they can throw on a pair of headphones while they're on their commute, on a train, or um, you know, sitting outside eating their lunch, and they can get that information um on the fly. And so that's what kind of pushed me to launch the podcast on top of all the social media um that I was doing, because I really want to share the resources within our community so that we can all grow because social media is is limits us to what we can do. They limit who can see what we're posting. Um so even if there's just more of us that are sharing it, we're still getting the information out there.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We had the the strength and numbers too. They can't get rid of all of us.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

And one thing I've learned too, um, as a business owner, um, and as far as my coaching and keen coaching, the social media is to really put my main focus on the things that I own, my website, my domain name, and constantly work on bringing people back to that place for their center hub for information. Because we could wake up tomorrow morning and be banned off of Facebook or Instagram because of what we're posting and what we're sharing, and lose all those followers and lose all that content. And if you keep the majority of it on your website, then it's okay if you wake up tomorrow morning, you know, you're not, you still have a way to reach your customers, your audience.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Um, you're not at the mercy of an algorithm or what Mark Zuckerberg wants to do or Elon Musk wants to do. Yeah. And I think that's very important for women business owners to um to be able to own our assets and you know, own our email lists, own our websites, you know, because if you're just relying on social media, you're not owning that. And so, yeah, as as woman-owned businesses, like we need to be owning the, you know, having equity in the things that we're creating, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

So can you share um some of your like most rewarding experiences that you've had as an educator and how you've seen BDSM positively impact other people's lives? I know you've talked about how it impacted yours, I know how it impacted mine. Um, but what have you seen as an educator?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Gosh, like I have so many stories. Um, you know, because we have so many courses, we've had so many students, and and we've seen so much. But the one that comes to mind is a couple that was in my group coaching program, and they I think they even said, like, we're joining your program as like our last ditch effort. Like we're seeing a counselor, and there's nothing wrong with seeing a counselor, I'm not saying that, but they were seeing a counselor, and they're like, it's either gonna be this or it's gonna be divorce. Like they were at that level, and and when they came into the program, like there was a lot of resentment. You know, they each wanted the other person to um be more and you know, fulfill, uh, you know, taking the lead more in their role and doing their role more. And it was, you know, challenging seeing them like this and seeing how unhappy they were. But just, you know, this was a six-month coaching program and just, you know, taking it baby step by step baby step. And, you know, the coaching program also has like one-on-one coaching along with the curriculum and the in the community. So we were able to really give them our time and attention, Jay and I, because he does the the program with me, and like it was just so neat to see them soften towards each other and just really latch on to their roles and start taking it more seriously and stop always like looking at what their partner wasn't doing and focusing on you know how they were fulfilling their own role. And it was just so beautiful. And it was like by the end of the program, they were just like, You saved us so much money in in a divorce settlement and so much, you know, stress and all that. So that was just really, really beautiful to see. And we're still in touch with them, and you know, relationships are like always evolving, they're always changing. So, of course, it's not like and they lived happily ever after, you know, they still have issues that come up, just like all of us do. But because of the like foundation and the skills they were able to learn, it's they're not going back to that, you know, rock bottom of where they were, you know, you know, at the verge of a divorce. Um, and then another one I thought that was really more lighthearted, but really, really cute was I had got a message from a woman and she said she um had taken one of my courses on how to find a partner. But she said, I just wanted to let you know that um I've actually she had I purchased it like like a few months ago, but she was like, I just want to let you know that I did find a partner, and it's like I hear that a lot, and I'm like, oh, that's good. I'm glad the course helped you to find a partner. And but she said it was another member, and she said that they were able to connect and they, you know, were long distance and were doing the long distance thing for a while, but like now they're like, you know, meeting up in person and now they have plans to like move in. And it was just like, oh, I was playing kinky matchmaker, you know. That just like made me so happy that I have like almost like these kids growing up and finding each other, you know. So that that just made my heart really happy. I was happy for that. But I mean, there's there's tons of stories, you know, just people letting go of shame for the first time, you know, starting to really, you know, ask for what they want in bed. Um, there's a million things, but yeah, those those two stories always stand out in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Uh God, and those are both great stories, too. Um, I gotta learn to write notes while I'm thinking about these things. You said something and now it's like gone in my mind. Um taking it back to the community, like you have really created a wonderful community and circle. Um, it is nice to be able to like I get a notice on my phone if somebody posts a question and get to, you know, think about what people are asking and watching their curiosity, watching them grow, watching them communicate with each other within the community. Um and so that too has helped me when I created my uh referral partner community, uh watching that grow and develop. It was like overnight. Like I woke up with this idea one morning and came in and did the work. And as soon as I launched it, it was like somebody had set it on fire. And it just showed me that everything I've been doing up until now has been touching more lives than I could have ever imagined.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

And it shows how much of a need for community there is that people out there are like really hungry for this because there's no one really you can you can talk to about this kind of stuff. So um, and then even if you do want to find, you know, a munch or a group, you know, it's kind of could be scary for first-timers. You don't know what kind of people are going to be there. But to have something online, you know, virtual where you can connect with people, you know, that's that's amazing to offer that, to have that because there's a real need for it.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

And to have a place, a safe space and a place where they can um read the information that you have, read your blogs, um, and get kind of the this is what to expect if you're planning on attending a much, or you know, that kind of stuff that helps people take that. Next step because they know a little bit more about what to expect.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like in our community, we try to have like um our group coaching members like every month have set goals. And a lot of times it is like attending my first munch or my first event, and they'll get in the community and say, like, who else has like attended a munch? Like, what's it like? And people will share pictures and things. So, so yeah, you know, it definitely helps having that that community.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Absolutely. Um, what strategies or approaches have you found most effective in reaching and connecting with your target audience?

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I think just meeting people where they're at and not trying to like gatekeep. Like, I know there's a lot of hate towards Fifty Shades of Gray, but to be honest, that is a lot of that is like how people find BDSM a lot of the times. And so I try not to like really, you know, I have my own thoughts about Fifty Shades of Gray and you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But I know that a lot of my students, a lot of people, they find BDSM because of those, because of those books or movies. Yeah. So um I I try not to shame people, try not to like gatekeep it and you know, say, if you're into that thing, go somewhere else. You know, I'm not one of those people. So I think people see that, you know, I'm I'm real, I'm open, you know, and I just try to be as friendly as possible, you know, the friendly neighborhood BDSM expert, and just, you know, help people. And I always say, like, I'm going to attract the right people for me. If people don't like me and the approach that I do, then that's okay. I'm not for them and they're not for me. There's dozens of other educators out there that are doing amazing work too. You know, find the person that you connect with and resonate with. That may be me, that may be you, that may be sunny, it could be someone else. Um, but so I just try to just be my real self. And that wasn't always easy. You know, I'm starting to be on camera more, um, just like you are. And, you know, that's that's hard. It was definitely hard in the beginning. Um, because you start thinking, what if people don't accept me? But, you know, Jay really helped me to see if they don't accept me, then why would I want them in my world? So, so yeah, just trying to be genuine has really helped, you know, to connect me with my target audience.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah. And, you know, I was one of those people who found out about Kink through Fifty Shades. Um, I don't remember if it was it my daughter or a friend, but somebody had given me like a PDF version of it. Um, and I had it uploaded like on a Kindle, whatever that was back in the day. Um, and I was commuting to work, and so I would read on my commute, and the number of people who would comment on the smile on my face while I was reading, I was like, what are you what are you reading over there? You know, um, that was enough to start a conversation. Um, and it was getting over the shame. Um it was just a book. It was mommy porn, you know, it was this is what I read. I read romance, I read erotica. Um, but it would start those conversations and it kind of just grew from there.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah. And the fun fact about um a lot of people don't know this about the 50 shades thing is that it did come out when the Kindle became popular. Like they came out both at the same time. So before, if you like this is before like reading on iPhones and you know, but um so before if you wanted to read like a romance novel, you know, on the bus or in a waiting room, you had to have the actual book. So, you know, everybody would see what exactly what you were reading. But so when the Kindle came out, you know, it's like this little tablet. So you could read whatever you wanted on there. And so I think there's this whole generation of women, especially, who have been looking for something like this, who, you know, connected with the story and now could read it, you know, out in the open because the Kindle had just been invented. And so I don't think it would have taken off as much as it did if it wasn't for the Kindle. Um, because yeah, like you said, you could be, you know, reading this, you know, next to someone and yeah, they see you smiling and be like, that must be some some good stuff you're reading. And you can say, well, actually, yeah. But um, so yeah, I think it allowed, you know, a whole generation of people to read this book. Um, it just became widely popular and it just so happens to be about BDSM. So, you know, more and more people started getting into BDSM.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

And one thing I have learned with going into this podcast is I have been listening, I I love podcasts. I could listen to podcasts all day if I had time, it'd be great. Um, but as I listen to more and more podcasts who are interviewing authors who are in that genre, that the vast majority of them are not in the lifestyle. They have had to, you know, hire beta readers, they have had to, you know, work with people in the lifestyle to proofread the book that they're writing, but they don't have any, you know, true life experience. They're not living the lifestyle. Um, and I was, I guess, surprised to some degree. Um, I had listened to um Pink Kink, which I know you know, um, and they had a two-part uh episode that was on BDSM romantic writings. And out of, I think it was maybe five or six authors, maybe more, only one, if I remember right, um, actually lived the lifestyle. Um, and so my favorite uh BDSM and King author is Red Phoenix, and she is a collared submissive. So her stories, even though they come from her muses, but it still had a lot of her and her her dominant and their furniture and their trips and their experiences and how it transformed their marriage. And when I was reading these books, and they were like fall, it felt like they fell perfectly in line with with where I was in my relationship with my sir. And so, you know, when characters were planning their wedding, I was planning my wedding. Um, and so that to me was the exciting part, and what really drew me in was that true to life, this person experience. This is the person who's influencing me and my choices and my decisions and my thoughts, you know, just curiosity. Um and it's just like you when I recommend your education, I recommend your education as a DS couple, as a DS couple with children. Um, because I think that people need that to relate to, if that's the lifestyle that they want or that they envision, or just to see that it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah, I had a student ask me when they found out I was like a 24-7 submissive, and that we have kids. And they were like, So, do you just wear like a leather suit all day and walk around or crawl around behind your dominant? And how do you explain that to your kids? And so it's like this is what people are imagining, and so we're able to show, well, this is what it really looks like. And so, yeah, people have these misconceptions, and so it's always nice when you can clear them up.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think so many people, um, once they see what's possible, um, they're more open to a lot. And that's the same goes the same for for me, coaching clients, is to really empower people to see the power that they possess for themselves and the what's possible. Like instead of thinking what is the worst thing that can happen is what is the best thing that could happen. And that is something that I've had hanging since I started all of this and decided, okay, this is the direction I'm going with my niche, is working with people in the lifestyle. That I literally had to embrace that in everything about me and what I was doing because in the beginning I was trying to keep it separate. I was trying to keep my regular coaching separate from my Keen coaching. I was trying to have separate web pages and all this separation. And over time I quickly realized that I was harming myself and the people who needed to hear what I was putting out there by still keeping it secret.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Um, and so I really had to just embrace this is who I am, this is what I'm passionate about, this is part of my business.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah, because you have to mirror that, you know. If you want your clients to be their authentic selves, you know, we have to be our authentic selves too.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Absolutely. So, what role has technology played in your business and how have you leveraged it to reach a wider audience?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Well, when technology works, I guess it doesn't always work, but when when technology is going good, um, everything is online now. So, I mean, it used to be like because we're, you know, from the San Francisco Bay Area, that you know, used to be we were just limited to that area. But now with everything being online, you know, it just kind of opened things up tremendously. You know, we have, you know, students, you know, throughout throughout the the country, but also in multiple countries, different time zones. Um, but you know, we try to use as much, you know, I always say like I don't work for Instagram, Instagram works for me. And so I just try to use as much like free, you know, publicity as I can. So that's like Google, social media, you know, all the different platforms out there, and just use as much as I can, but also not get caught up in it too. Because like we said, you know, it can get taken away in a moment's notice, but I'm not out there trying to break my back to, you know, make tons of reels and TikToks and things like that when all it's gonna get me is, you know, likes and follows. You know, it's like I do use technology, but it it has its place for that. But, you know, because of things like Zoom, you know, obviously we're able to do, you know, interviews like these, but you know, also coaching calls. Um, I've had live trainings before that people can attend um live and ask their questions live. Um, the virtual summit that that we had, the Dom Sum Dynamics Summit in the beginning of the year, that was like all technology. There were so many like moving parts in the background. Um, and then one thing I've been doing that I really love that we wouldn't have been able to do before without technology is it's um like DM coaching. So like coaching in the DM. So so even with Zoom coaching, like that's really good. But some people still, you know, they don't want to be on camera or they don't have time to like sit for an hour, you know, they have kids to pick up, they have a job to go to. So I've just been doing like voice messages, text messages where we can like asynchronously, you know, chat back and forth. And sometimes I think that works better because it gives us time to think. Um, so I think that has um been really helpful. So, and just seeing what else is on the horizon. I'm you know, always trying to learn more and more different tech platforms and how we can use those to help better our students.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

And I've learned a lot from you. And I try to, you know, pay attention when I'm listening to podcasts or watching, you know, things off of YouTube. It is the things that that people mention, like um, you had used fiber. Um, and so it, you know, it makes me stop and look into it. And is this something that would benefit me? Um, and so it gives me things to consider that I never would have, because this is definitely not my background, you know. Um, so I'm still learning every day. Yeah, but I love it. I love it. It's exciting, and I love learning from others that have gone before me, or even like you and I were kind of rolling this path side by side, and I'm learning from you all the time.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I appreciate it. Yeah, and our our tech stack is always changing as new platforms come on the market, or um, you know, we just learn different things. And, you know, looking back at, you know, how we started is you know different than what we're doing now. I know like in the beginning, we were definitely into like pinching every penny, trying to get the cheapest platform out there. And after a while, it is just a headache. So it's so easier, you know, if you can afford it to buy obviously the more expensive platforms and things like that, because like if not, you're kind of just hodgepodging and creating this like Frankenstein of a business, and it's it's not serving you, it's not serving your students, and so like even more, you know, we've been in business for five years now, and we're still finding ways to streamline the technology and just making it easier for the students to be able to access everything.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

So, what would you say currently is your favorite kind of platform?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

So, you mean like all platforms or social media or paint?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Well, I know that you use circle for the community, and we did it for the summits. Um, and I really like it. Um, but like, you know, I started looking into it when I started creating my community, and of course, the cost is is pretty hefty. Um but yeah, I think I'm spinning my wheels trying to Frankenstein my community when Circle really has so much.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, so that is so to answer your question, that is my favorite platform. Like I and that's what I would hinted at when I said we're starting to streamline things even more, because I at the time of this recording, I have all of my courses on Teachable. It's a platform called Teachable, and I have my community on Circle and host my virtual events on Circle, but Circle also has courses, and so I did the math. So Circle is expensive, I will say that, even just for the community. But I will not put my community on Facebook. I love my community too much to put them in the hands of Mark Zuckerberg. So they um, so I wanted my own. That was the other thing, is like I thought about Discord, but Discord can change its terms of use uh any time, and then you know, then we're gone. It's just another Facebook. So I wanted something I can own and that I can like literally talk to the owners about. You know, I'm always messaging them and making sure that my niche is okay to be on their platform. But so they circle has where you can have courses now. And so probably at the beginning of next year that or in December, January, I'm gonna be moving away from Teachable because paying for both of them is so expensive. So I'm actually going to save money by getting rid of Teachable and putting the courses on circle. And so that's gonna help the students even more because they don't have to log into two different platforms. They don't have to get their courses on teachable and then have the community on circle. So I just love circle. I love what the team is doing there. Like I said, like, you know, I'm in contact with the founders, and you know, we have our own little community for people who have circle. We always get to ask our questions. You know, it's like you can't do that with Facebook. You can't ask the Facebook team, like, hey, I'm having trouble with this. You know, it's it's like, oh well, you're out of luck if you have a problem with Facebook, you know. So um that's the and there's so much you can do. You um, so like I said, with the DM coaching, you can leave voice notes in in the DMs there. You can go live and have live events there. Um, and you know, because I own it, I can design it how I want. And so that's been like the platform I've been really loving.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Thank you so much for for going into that in such detail because it may help me make a consideration or a decision sooner than than I want. Um, but yeah, for that reason, I mean, I'm I'm watching my community grow and I want to provide them the best platform to do that. And Facebook groups and all of that just really isn't user-friendly. It's you know, things get lost in the threads, they're hard to find. You can only have, you know, so many featured items. Um, I try to create like chat groups to keep conversations in certain buckets. Um, but that's when I started looking more to circle to kind of see um how you were using it for the community because I really, really enjoy the community.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Yeah. And the other thing with Facebook is the privacy issue. And whenever I had tried to do things on Facebook before, too, like a lot of people would message me and say, I'm not on Facebook, or I'm on Facebook, but I don't want to join your stuff because my family follows me on Facebook and I don't want them to see, you know, what I'm into. And yes, you can change the privacy settings, but honestly, I don't trust those settings, you know. Like I said, like I know how Mark Zuckerberg works and like this the shady things that company does. Like, I I don't trust them. So it's like I'm not gonna trust them with my company either. You know, even vanilla businesses, I've heard that they use Facebook for their groups and they'll wake up one morning and like their group is gone, you know, and they there's no one they can really contact or email to see, you know. So to me, that's just like way too risky.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, and I've seen that a lot happening a lot more recently, um, or getting flagged for things you're you're posting or creating that it may be against their guidelines. You have to appeal it. I mean, that is just so much time, so much energy. It's just easier to delete the post and move on. Um but I I I was following a lady and I love her art, um, and she sells all her stuff on Etsy, and she woke up one morning and it was gone. Like her whole account was gone. She had pending orders, they returned money, and there was it was like weeks and weeks of her fighting and trying to get it put back on and not even knowing why they took it down. Nobody ever answered why. And so I was um attending a mastermind course that really kind of brought me into focus about focusing on what you own. Um, you know, and if it's a website issue, because of our adult content, there are website providers um that are specifically set up for the adult content world. Um but I have GoDaddy, I don't have any problems, I haven't had any issues. Um I really enjoy it. It's a nice user-friendly software. Um as far as education, I think it's fine and it's fairly safe. Um, but you never know.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you never know. And that's why like I think sometimes paying the premium price for these things is good because you do get more, you know, you're able to have the customer service. And so a lot of times before I, you know, make the purchase, I will reach out to them and say, Hey, just want to let you know this is my business, this is what I run. I let them know like there's no new. There's no pornography. I'm not doing anything illegal. It's simply, you know, education on alternative relationships. You know, do would my company be following your terms of use if I, you know, purchased your platform? And that way you have a conversation with them. Um, but yeah, there's you're so much more likely to get a response when you're when you're paying money. And even like Etsy, you know, they're taking a small fee, you know, so they don't really care about people, you know. So yeah, that's why I'm all about, um, like they say, don't build on someone else's land. So try to own as much as you can.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Gold.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Can you share some of the challenges you faced when starting the business in BDSM education and kind of how you overcame it?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah. So this is a lot kind of like what we've already talked about, but um, I have this one story and it like breaks my heart every time I tell it. But so like I just started getting successful and really wanting to like sit at the big kid table as far as like businesses go and really have a business and not just do like some kink thing. So we were making pretty good money. And so I told my Dom that I wanted to hire um an ad agency to help me, and I found like I'm not gonna name the name you've may have heard from them, but I'm not gonna give them any traffic. But so I um I like had enough money to hire this ad agency, and I was so excited and I filled out their thing, you know, I had the budget that they said I needed, I had the traffic that they said I, you know, I needed. So I was like up there with, you know, all the other big people, and they scheduled a Zoom call with me, and I was like so excited. I'm like, I'm finally gonna, you know, start playing in the big lings now. And I was so excited to have the Zoom call with one of their um agents, and the agent just said, so we don't work with people in your industry. And I was so devastated, and I just wanted to get off the call and cry because I felt so humiliated too. Because my I always want to ask, like, what industry do you think I'm even in? Like, what do you think I'm doing? You know, I'm teaching people how to have better relationships. That's like pretty much it, you know. Yep. What do you think I'm doing? You know, and it's always a man that's just like kind of has this like shameful look, like your industry. And I was just so let down. So that's kind of been like the story of my business is just trying to get people to take me seriously and working with other companies and um, you know, vanilla companies, and you know, trying to hire them for services, and and I I a lot of times I just get the door slammed in my face, and it's the I'm sorry, we don't work with people in your industry. And so I get really depressed when that happens because I think, you know, I'm never gonna get bigger, I'm never gonna be able to grow and scale. You know, if I had some other company that was, you know, selling, you know, how to, you know, rebuild cars or like, I don't know, like how to write a book or something like I I would be more successful doing that. But I try to just think like these disadvantages kind of just put one hand behind my back. And so I have to be that much stronger. And every time like I get that door slammed in my face, I think right about here, another kink educator would stop. But I'm gonna keep going. And that's what makes me different, I feel, is that you know, when I hit these walls, when you know, Mark Zuckerberg is being a jerk, and you know, or someone tells me no, they don't work with my industry, you know, I get depressed, I stop, but then I think, okay, any other person would just stop right here, but I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna find a way to still be successful. And, you know, it's allowed me to think out of the box and get creative. But um, yeah. And then the other thing that's kind of come up to is the flip side of that, is whenever I am successful, people say, Oh, that's because you're you're in the sex industry. Like it's like I, you know, they want to have it both ways. They, you know, they say they won't work with me because of my industry. But then when I am successful, they blame it on the industry. Yeah. So it's like I I couldn't possibly be successful because I'm smart and I know what I'm doing in business. It's only because sex sells. That's the only reason I'm successful as a woman. And so just putting up with, you know, those kind of microaggressions, you know, it's hard. You know, it's like I want to be proud of myself, but then, you know, everybody kind of writes off what we do. And so that's hard. And so it's it's hard not to get discouraged, but I just remember I just got to keep going.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Absolutely. And I think um, you know, and watching your strength and hearing your story and sharing your story on platforms like podcasts will help people continue to take steps forward. Um, and when I first reached out to Sunny about having her on the podcast, the one for the for the Kink Your Way podcast, we focused on um her being an executive producer for a Showtime original, Sex with Sunny Megatron. And I'm like, you know, I've watched Sunny for years and years and years and watched her grow. And I'm like, how how did you get there? Like, how did you get to that space where you had this series? And it did so well, and it's this amazing series. Um, and so that's why I, you know, really love having podcasts as a platform to interview people, to hear their stories, to hear their challenges, and also to share their wins and celebrate with them their wins. Um because I think it it it brings us connection, it makes us stronger, um, and we can continue to to grow and share with others.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

So, what other advice do you have for an aspiring entrepreneur who is interested in starting a business in this industry?

SPEAKER_00 52:51

It's a good question. So, well, definitely know it's a long game. Um, that if you want to, you know, you may get success overnight with things like reels and TikTok videos and things like that. But like making it, you know, an entrepreneurial thing is gonna be a long game. Um, so you have to have the endurance to stay in it. Um, and I think us as submissives, you know, we have endurance. So I think we we have that skill. But um just being willing to try new things, but also be yourself. I think, you know, in the beginning, I tried to be what I thought I should be, and that's exhausting. It is really exhausting to try to be like someone else. And it doesn't do anything for your self-esteem either, because then when you realize, oh, people like me, but they like me because I'm trying to be someone else. Um, and so my Dom had to work with me a lot in that and just, you know, kept saying, you know, be yourself. That's what people want. You know, they're gonna love you. So um, yeah, just be yourself from the beginning. Um just keep at it because it doesn't really matter what you do, like there's no like like silver bullet as far as like becoming successful. It's just the people who keep showing up and keep going. Um is yeah, so just keep at it, even when it's not fun. But um yeah, so that's my advice.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Wonderful. And that really is, I think, core advice for any entrepreneur in any industry. Um is show up every day, do the work, lead with your heart, be your authentic self. Everything else will follow. Um, and and I have definitely uh learned that and struggled with some um imposter syndrome. And you know, it it does take time, but um, if you keep showing up every day, you gotta you gotta put in the work. It's like planting a field. You've got to be out there in the sun and digging and planting and watering and and all of that. And then all of a sudden, you're gonna have crops and they're gonna be ready for you to pick them and to to enjoy that, the fruit of your work.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah. And I think that's another thing as entrepreneurs, we don't stop to enjoy our work. It's like when we have success, we're like, yay, that was a great success. We did really good. Okay, on to the next thing. You know, we don't give ourselves time to really marvel at what we're creating and building. We're just, you know, kind of constantly moving from one thing to the next. And I think that's when burnout can happen. So it's like, yes, you have to show up, but you want to also, you know, celebrate your wins too and enjoy that.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

And I have kind of made that a habit every month. At the beginning of every month, I can look at my calendar and I can make a list of everything I learned. The person, the people I talk to, the experiences, the education, the information. I mean, I can list it in bullet points, I can send it out and in email marketing so that people can see, you know, that's part of your authority. You know, this who's gonna hire me out of a thousand other coaches, you know, what is my authority? Where, you know, where do I get my education? What education do I have? It kind of goes back to like um I I have a friend who who's trying to get this job and they're they're kind of stuck on the education. They really want somebody that has a piece of paper that said they went to college. Um, and so it's getting people past that paper ceiling and seeing that life experiences and the education that we can get free is just as valuable as the education that I spent$40,000 to obtain that I'm not using anymore.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

And so I always take time to celebrate my wins, not only for me, but for somebody else to give themselves permission to see the possibilities. Um and so it's been it's been wonderful. I mean, I enjoy it. I I think it just it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy when I sit down and do it because then I'm able to show people what I can offer them that's real. Like I learned this how. It's not just a piece of paper saying that, you know, I attended the Dom Sub Living Dynamics or um I attended uh BDSM and mental health summit. Uh, but I actually put those things into play. I work with my clients on the things that I learned. Um, so yeah, celebrate your wins. It's all wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

And I want to thank you so much for your time, Alessandra. I appreciate you. Um, we talked a little bit before we went on on screen about all of the things that you have improved in my life. Um and so I just really want to take a second to just thank you again. Um, I appreciate you. I'm looking forward to continuing to grow with you as we continue to grow our jobs, our careers, our lives, our dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Wow, I loved that interview so much. Huge thank you again to Leanne Heron for having me on her show. If you enjoyed our conversation, be sure to check out her podcast, Kink Your Way. It's packed with real, shame free kink education and powerful stories from across the lifestyle. You can listen to Kink Your Way on all major platforms, and you can learn more about Leanne and her coaching at kinkyourway.com. And until next time, keep embracing your power and pleasure through Doms of Living.