Pioneering Peace: Conscious Travel Bridging Foes

Join Maoz Inon, award winning Israeli peace activist and social entrepreneur, as he transforms personal tragedy into a powerful mission for peace and coexistence. After losing his parents in the October 7th tragedy, Maoz's commitment to bridging divides between Israelis and Palestinians only grew stronger. Discover how conscious tourism fosters cross cultural understanding and economic support to strengthen both Arab neighborhoods and Jewish-Arab solidarity in Israel. Maoz shares intimate reflections on his upbringing with peace activist parents, the profound impact of empathy over revenge, and the vital role of international support and grassroots organizations in amplifying the voices of peace-builders. This episode delves into themes of forgiveness, resilience, social impact and the power of human connection.

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Chapters

• 0:11 Meet Maoz Inon: Social Entrepreneur and Peace Activist
• 0:41 A Tragic Loss and a Call for Peace
• 1:33 What Brings You Joy?
• 4:38 Maoz's Background and Upbringing
• 7:46 The Journey to Responsible Tourism
• 11:12 Building Cross-Cultural Bridges in Nazareth
• 14:56 Understanding the Palestinian Struggle
• 16:33 The Importance of Reconciliation
• 21:39 Forgiveness and Moving Forward
• 28:45 The Future of Peace and Reconciliation
• 30:46 The Miracle of Future Peace
• 31:20 Learning from History: Israel and Egypt
• 32:51 Building Partnerships for Peace
• 33:49 Reconciliation and Education Initiatives
• 36:35 Tourism as a Bridge for Peace
• 40:58 Criticism and Complicity in Tourism
• 45:01 Hope as a Verb: The Power of Hope and Action
• 51:38 Messages to Both Sides: Palestinians and Jewish People
• 54:24 Remembering Maoz's Mother: Mandalas For Peace
• 59:37 Closing Reflections and Prayer

Transcript

Introduction: Welcome to Superhumanizer podcast where we promote empathy and understanding in polarizing viewpoints through stories told by people living them. 

Katie Bogen: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm Katie Bogen, your guest host today on Superhumanizer, and I have Maoz Inon here with me. Maoz is an Israeli social entrepreneur and peace activist. He believes that improving responsible tourism drives positive social change and political change. 

His ventures include establishing guest houses and hostels that create social and economic cross cultural partnerships between Israelis and Palestinians while raising awareness for international visitors to understand the challenges that are faced in the region. On October 7th, Ma'oz tragically lost his parents in a horrific day that hurt so many people. 

Ma'oz, I'm so very sorry for your loss. Truly, no one should ever have to experience loss in that way. And despite this, and through the grief, Ma'oz has become a prominent voice for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, appearing in international news outlets and publications. And we know that you're a superhumanizer, Ma'oz, because you've dedicated your life work to peace and coexistence. 

When most people would want violent revenge after what happened to you on October 7th, you were able to pivot toward compassion. You became an even louder voice for peace, coexistence, and collaboration. So thank you so, so much for sharing your time with us. 

Maoz Inon: Thank you, Katie. It's really an honor and privilege to be here with you and with all the Viewers and listeners. 

so good luck. I hope it will be a really meaningful hour. So yeah, I'm sure that it will be. Thank you so much. Before we dive into our broader discussion, I want to play a little game with you called what brings you joy. And so I'm going to ask you what brings you joy three times and then we'll switch it up. 

Katie Bogen: Does that sound good? 

Maoz Inon: Yes. Uh, Yeah, I'm ready. 

Katie Bogen: Okay. Moz, my friend, what brings you joy? 

Maoz Inon: Good live music. Like I really love being in a rock or alternative live music concerts and to dance usually in the front line many times with my wife and my kids, and so that really, really bring a lot, a lot of joy to me. 

Katie Bogen: Oh, thank you. That sounds spectacular. Maoz, my dear, what brings you joy? 

Maoz Inon: My family, my wife, Shlomit, my children, the boys, Liat, Do, and Eden, we try every evening to eat dinner together. Usually I'm making those dinners. Just having the whole family sitting together, talking, sometimes arguing, agreeing or disagreeing. 

 to connect with my family, it's bringing lot of joy. 

Katie Bogen: That sounds so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And time number three, Maoz, my darling, what brings you joy? 

Maoz Inon: Okay, this might sound a bit strange, but cleaning the house. 

After the house is clean and the floor is shining 

Katie Bogen: and 

Maoz Inon: the sink and the fire place and the oven are all clean and I just feel, okay, I've done my share and now I can start fixing the world after I clean my house. 

Katie Bogen: Gotta fix the home first and then you get to fix the world. 

Maoz Inon: Exactly. Thank you. 

Exactly. 

Katie Bogen: Well, How do you feel about switching it up? Are you okay asking? I'm ready. Now 

Maoz Inon: it's, yeah, now it's the easy part for 

Katie Bogen: me. 

Maoz Inon: Katie, what brings you joy? 

Katie Bogen: First thing that's bringing me joy today is being here with you and getting to engage in a conversation that I think a lot of people would assume is difficult, but I already feel is going to be very heartfelt and easy. 

So that's bringing me joy. 

Maoz Inon: It's really 

it's great to hear it. Uh, What brings you joy? 

Katie Bogen: Storytelling really brings me joy. I find something so beautiful about being able to craft a narrative that delivers a really important message. And we know stories are what help us to change minds. 

To be in community with one another to get to know each other. There's some really neat research I read recently on the ability of people who read, who are like big readers to perspective take, like they tend to have higher compassion and empathy because of the way they've engaged over and over in story. 

So that's something that brings me a lot of joy. 

Maoz Inon: So I think stories sometimes, uh, not being estimated enough because we are living on stories. Bible stories, the religion, the creation of each of our nation is built over a story. So story is so powerful. So we need to use it for the better cause, 

Katie Bogen: Absolutely. I agree. 

Maoz Inon: Yeah. Katie, what brings you joy? 

Katie Bogen: Well, 

I have two cats, Abra and Evie. And they're my sweet, squishy little boys. You might see them today. They get really cuddly when I'm on video. So my two cats bring me joy. 

Maoz Inon: I have only one and you might see it later. 

Katie Bogen: We can match. Thank you so much for playing that game with me. 

And I'm excited to get to know you better. So let's start with you telling us just. A little bit about you, where you're from and your background. How, How did you become aware of the occupation and the Palestinian struggle? 

Maoz Inon: Okay. I will start in, if it's getting too long or too deep, just tell me Maoz 

I was born in Israel uh, 48 years ago. My both grandparents were Zionist pioneers immigrating from Eastern Europe to Palestine. That was under the British mandate. Okay. And they were in a youth movement that started the kibbutzim. It's a collective way of life that was established even before, the foundation of the state of Israel. 

And they founded two kibbutzim in the Negev in the southern part of Israel when my parents were born. And my parents moved to live in my father kibbutz, just kilometer and a half a mile from the border with Gaza. And I was born there. I have two older sister, one younger sister and one young brother, so we are five. 

And our parents raised us in the kibbutz. And my mom was an artist. She was always very creative, doing art from recycled materials and garbage before it become a uh, world trend. I remember during the summers, she would ask us to collect all the ice cream sticks. From the ice cream , we had during the summer and at the end of the summer, she sit us around the table, gave us colors, and asked us to paint on the ice cream sticks, and then she glue it on a board and frame it, and it was still on the wall of the house until October the 7th. 

And you could always recognize my ice cream stick because they were the ugliest But I was still proud and my mom was proud of me and my father was a farmer a admirable farmer cultivating not just the land but also other farmers and academy, scholars and learning and teaching about agriculture and crops and fields. 

And I keep remembering, and now I'm saying it again and again, that he was the most optimistic person I ever met because it's so difficult to be a farmer in the Negev in the desert. So there is a drought and floods and insects, but at the end of each devastating and horrible season, it, he would always tell us, next year I'm gonna sow again. 

Because next year is going to be a better year. I will get the best seeds, I will fertilize the land, I will do everything just right, and I will let nature do its part. So it's like injected to my body, to all my cells, this program that knows that the future is going to be a better future, but we must do our part. 

So I really, I love my parents very much. And growing up in the kibbutz, we've decided when I was 14 to move to a nearby community, which wasn't as social and collective as this one. And that's where my parents live for the last 35 years, just off the border with Gaza. So the border was basically the border or the line of the community and my parents the pillars of the community. 

And we went there for many weekends and holidays. Like many young Israelis, when I was 18, I enlisted the IDF, the Israeli army. It's a mandatory and compulsory. But it was a horrible, horrible three years. I couldn't get the logic, the non logic and the just the meaningless of this time. 

I was suffering from depression. It was really horrible dark times, but that's where I met my wife, Shlomit my partner for the last 28 and a half years. Uh, And then again, like many young Jewish Israelis, we went backpacking. In New Zealand, Australia, and Nepal. When we were 22, it was the year of 97, 98. 

We had amazing time. We came back to Israel, Shlomit studied and graduate electronic engineering from Tel Aviv University, and I was working in the private sector in 2004, when Shlomit graduated, we've decided that before mortgage, before we celebrate our 30th and before kids. 

We will shall go travel again. And this time we started in Israel. We hiked the Israel National Trail It's an hiking trail like the Appalachian In the East Coast or the Pacific Crest Trail in the West or the Camino de Santiago About a thousand kilometers hiking trail. It was amazing experience We realized for the first time that we are living in the land of the Bible. Where so many of the Bible stories took place and we walked from Arab communities to Jewish communities, small city, small villages to big cities. 

 we saw the potential in promoting hiking tourism in Israel and we start dreaming of a network of hostels. Along the trail in the communities and with those ideas. Uh, We traveled a section of the Pacific Crest Trail in California and another six months in South America. 

And we had amazing experience watching the most beautiful landscape in the world, but we found ourself in a small indigenous community in Ecuador, and it was overwhelming and amazing to see our tourism empowering and supporting the local community. Inhabiting the local community, preserve the heritage, culture, and way of life, and in the same time make money. 

So we said, wow, this kind of business we want to be involved in, and we want to open a community based guest house in Israel, next to the Israel National Trail. And we've decided that we want to do it in an Arab community. And that's why maybe for the first time we've become activists. 

Because we said when we had, we traveled around the world, we learned about the indigenous communities, indigenous people of New Zealand, of Australia. Of Nepal, of California, of South America. And we know nothing about the indigenous communities in Israel. We know nothing about Arabs or Palestinian. We are two separate communities and I'll get to numbers soon to just to give like a proportion. 

We didn't know what the Ramadan, the holy months that we are now, we didn't know the difference between Eid al Fitr and Eid al Adha, the two important holidays for the Muslim. And we didn't know where Jesus was born, where he's buried, and where was the Annunciation. So we said, how come we know so much about everyone else, but we know nothing about our neighbors? 

So we said the best way to do it would be opening a guest house in an Arab community. In Israel, there are about 10 million citizens. 2 million of them, which means 20 percent are Palestinians. Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians are living in Israel. 99 percent of the time in peace among each other within the international border of Israel. 

So there is still inequality. There is still racism. There are still many things to fix, but there is no bloodshed between those two communities. And in the West Bank and in Gaza, there are Five million more palestinians which are under occupation or under siege and now war in gaza And there it's not that there is not enough or there is no interaction between jewish israelis to the palestinian in gaza And in the west bank, there is nearly no interaction between jews and arabs within israel So even though the nearby community to where I live and where i'm speaking to you now Binyamina We are going to different education system. 

We are working usually in different places and we don't interact. And it's a shame and it's a pity. And I said, I want to break this cycle of ignorance and wall of separation, imaginary wall of separation. And we are going to open a guest house in an Arab community. So in the year of 2005, we opened the first guest house ever in the old city of Nazareth. 

Nazareth is the largest Palestinian city within Israel, and it was known, the old city was known as the worst and most the lowest socio demographic residence of the entire Nazareth, and one of maybe the poorest the hardest in Israel, known for drug dealers, for crime, for violence. But it's a beautiful old city from the time of the Ottoman palaces. 

Amazing architecture and amazing people and we started the first guest house ever in the old city and now Not 20 years after there are more than 50 hostels guest houses Boutique hotel and family stays in the old city All of them run owned and managed by local people from Nazareth. 

Katie Bogen: That's amazing. What an impact you've been able to have modeling what this collaborative business could look like and what it does look like to contradict, as you say, those imaginary borders and just to desegregate your mind and decolonize the mind and try to learn who your neighbors are. 

So I'm wondering for you, as you started. Creating this business with your wife and really trying to get to know your neighbors and Arab Israelis. How did you start to learn about indigenous Palestinians and the land of Israel as indigenous Palestinian land? What was that process for you? 

Maoz Inon: It was a process. Like you say, it started slowly. And by talking and listening and also sharing my story with my Palestinian new friends. And seeing that there are human beings, there is no different if I would do it in South America, or we'll do it in Australia, it will be the same. 

So I was treating everyone as equal from the first day and I asked not by words, but by my action to be also be treated as human. And this is why when we opened the first day, we've decided. We're going to leave the door open to the public. There was no lock. Everyone could enter. 

And there were no cameras. And of course, because of the agreement and terms with the building owner, Palestinian, of course, there were no, Zionist or Jewish symbols. This was the agreement, and we keep their culture, heritage, and tradition. And we named it after their father. So it's called Fawzi Azar, which is a very local name. 

We named it after their late father. And it was open, so it was the drug addicts that could come and say hi. It was the drug dealers. But it also was the residents from the church and the mosque. Everyone could come and see what we are doing. We had nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of. 

We are a human being that want to be part of the community. And we received a lot of respect and honor for doing this first step in reaching out to the local community and giving to the community, not just taking to the community, which many times intrapreneurs or big brands or philanthropists or government policy makers are doing. 

So we became part of the community. And unfortunately, the biggest success or the stamp for being part of community was that we have done a wake ceremony for my late parents in Nazareth, the largest Palestinian city within Israel. And hundreds from the people of the community of Nazareth came to pay their condolences. 

And cry with us from the Common people to the city leader and the business leaders of the city Everyone came I keep saying that I'm nos" Nazarene like half From Nazareth and when I'm saying it to many of my friends in Nazareth that no You are more Nazarene than we are, you know more about the community and you contribute more to the community I really like my best friendship and relationship with people from Nazareth. 

Katie Bogen: So you were able to come into this community that you already knew to be incredibly beautiful and socially and economically downtrodden and find a way to be supportive without putting Israeli flags or Jewish insignia or anything on this space and creating this open community space. I'm curious from you coming back to your childhood and moving through historic Palestine and Israel. 

Do you consider yourself to be a settler? How do you interact with the concept of settler?  

Maoz Inon: I lived all my life, and of course nowadays, with the international border of Israel. And also from a realization that if we are talking about settlers and Zionism and Palestinian national movement, both people will stay here. 

Okay? Both people. It's about 7 point something Palestinians, 7 point something Israelis, between the river and the sea. No one gonna disappear. Both gonna stay here. And I'm speaking and many of my friends are national Palestinians. And they're agreeing, and they are saying that the rights for those who were born on the lands should be, they have now native rights. 

And I'm reading now about South Africa , the reconciliation process. Also the Afrikaners there, and Nelson Mandel was very much promoting it, that, , they also have rights, okay, native rights. They don't have privilege rights. But they do have native rights. So everyone has native rights. That's how I believe. 

And that's how I see myself as human and believing and choosing humanity. And after there was the every two years, three years or one year, is conflict and tension or war between Israel and Gaza in the West Bank, and also sometimes riots within Israel. And it's always very easy to take the riots for their, to make them Riots on a basis of race or nationality, but it's not necessarily this way because in the 20 percent of the citizens of Israel that are Palestinians by origin and by nationality They are in the lower sociodemographic level because they have, because of many reasons that many of them because of inequality within the structure and the administration. 

 When there are riots, it's not necessarily coming on a basis of race or nationality, but it's very easy. So what we try to, we started the preaching for May 21, where again, there were riots Jews and Arabs within Israel, that the first step in reaching a shared society is knowing the other side narrative, knowing their narrative, knowing their fears, challenges, obstacles, but also dreams and hopes, 

and what 

the future look and where do they want to be, and if we keep ignoring, erasing, oppressing, or building a wall between those narratives, violence will Unfortunately, will rise and resistance will definitely will happen and we cannot control if it's going to be a violence or non violence resistance. 

So in order to achieve a shared society and to build a shared future, we must know the other side narrative. And there is no point in arguing and there is no need to agree because your story is your story, mine is mine, , I cannot convert my story to be your story. It's different stories, but just when we are open and uh, confident enough to speak about our story, knowing that we won't be jailed, arrested. 

or fired from our work, then we can start building a future. So this is what we've been doing since May 2001. So when now I need to, I'm speaking about narratives. , this is what my work frame for many years. And I just received tools. And also I'm now saying many times, my entire life was just a preparation for October the 7th. 

When October the 7th happened, It wasn't difficult to me to come with my message and to know what to say how to act or what to do. It was just given because this is what I was doing, building partnership relationship with Palestinians in Israel and in the West Bank and and learning about their narrative and also not a shame. 

erasing my own personal narrative. 

Katie Bogen: You had preparation of built empathy, of knowing the stories from the communities. That you had been isolated from during your youth doing all of the work to deconstruct those walls. I'm curious what you assume to be the difference between your beliefs of this bridge building and breaking down the literal and figurative walls between Israelis and Palestinians between Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis versus the beliefs of, say, a settler in the West Bank or people who want to resettle Gaza. 

What do you think the differences are? 

Maoz Inon: First? It's huge differences. , it's huge. do you believe all humans are equal? That's number one. And , should have and enjoy and practice the same rights. , some have a privilege and have more equal more than the others. And if this privilege and being equal more coming on basis of religious background. Something is wrong. So this is exactly so I believe everyone are equal and I know the world is not perfect and we are not equal But it's still in our rights official rights and legal rights we must be equal I'm reading about it. 

I'm learning, I'm experiencing it. I'm going to the West bank. it's impossible to go to a Gaza , I don't know, two decades, maybe three even, but I recently, two years ago, I've been to a five, day seminar in the West bank and East Jerusalem. And my conclusion, I had two main conclusion and I wrote them also publicly. 

Number one is the occupation. Is such a success. It's the most successful, unfortunately, Israeli project since the foundation of Israel, the way we are oppressing and occupying the Palestinians. It's unbelievable the effectiveness of it and the way it's been able to fragmentize the Palestinian society to hierarchy of legal status, hierarchy of places. 

 It's impossible for them to practice freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of work, traveling overseas. They are just blocked from every way that you would look on the Palestinian in the West Bank, they are blocked. And this is because the occupation operation is such an wholistic approach for doing it. 

. It's really overwhelming. So I said, it cannot be. And then, my conclusion was that it's not sustainable. It cannot last for long. It's not sustainable. This way of oppression, of occupation, cannot last. in my worst nightmare, I never thought that my parents will pay the price. 

 Thought something will happen in the West Bank or it will be international pressure that will see this mis justice that Israel is conducting for so long. But I never thought my parents will pay the price. 

Katie Bogen: I'm so sorry. And I really want to know, how did that change things for you, if at all? 

Maoz Inon: It changed my life completely. My daily routine, what I'm speaking, what I'm doing, everything has changed. Because till October the 7th, I was a peace activist and a business entrepreneur, social entrepreneur involved in many activities. But. In one night, I became a peace entrepreneur. 

So now all my time energy connection are dedicated and devoted for making peace and creating hope. So everything is completely changed. 

Katie Bogen: So you wound up really redirecting your energy and your mission of what you were put on this earth to do. I know for a lot of people who go through a loss as profound as what you have gone through. 

They would be searching for someone to blame someone to punish some way to take revenge. And you managed to pivot away from that. I'm curious who, or what do you blame? What is the system that you feel is responsible for the death of your parents? 

Maoz Inon: Yeah, it's a really good question. I'll try to give a complete answer. 

First, you're right. But my brother, the second morning of the shiva, shiva is the Jewish wake ceremony. We sit for a week and when thousands of people come and pay their condolences. So in the second morning, my brother, young brother said, I want for my personal and community lost. We lost so many childhood friends or their parents or the children that were killed or been taken hostages. 

It's unbelievable how many people we lost. He said, I want To send a universal message, not for revenge. And then we agreed the whole family agreed on this message. And as the Shiva ended, I also said that my mission is to convince myself and my family and everyone else that the future is going to be a better future. 

And with this frame, I started doing many meetings and talks. On the international media, but also private, one on one, public speaking. And then I listened to many Palestinians. One of them, Hamza Awawdeh, is a very talented and wise person. And my anger was against the Israeli government. I hold the Israeli government accountable. 

for my parents death Hamas was doing what is expected from a fundamentalistic terrorist organization that is oppressing and killing his own people. 

And 

now he found the opportunity to kill my innocent people. So Hamas was doing what is his nature. I had no anger or call for revenge against Hamas. I had a lot of anger against the Israeli government that betrayed and I was still betraying the hostages. 

For And then I listened to Hamzeh speaking to, in the CNN with my brother. And he say there that he's willing to forgive about the past, he's willing to forgive about the present, but he won't forgive about the future. Not to himself and to no one else. And I said, wow, that's something really deep and meaningful. 

I must listen again. So I listened twice to this 20 minutes interview. And then I asked myself, What does it mean? What does it mean to forgive about the past and the present? Who Hamzeh is willing to forgive? And he's willing to forgive the Israeli public for the Nakba, for 57 years of occupation and oppression, for the- humiliation he's going through in the checkpoints and in the airport, and for losing so many of his family to this conflict. 

He's willing to forgive us. So I would say I want to be a great person like Hamzeh. So whom I need to forgive. So yes, I need to forgive Hamas. That was the easy forgiveness. But I said I also need to forgive the Israeli government, which is much more difficult because I blame them. But I say, okay, I'm willing to forgive them. 

I'm totally willing to forgive them because this anger, this rage is just making me sick as a person. It's hurting me, those urge, those needs, those calls, this anger, making me sick. It's not good for me. I want to be in places that, where I find joy, where I find happiness. , This is, and then I can be the best, the better version of myself. 

So I've decided to forgive everyone. I stopped going to protests. I'm going against the government. I'm going to protest. Only the protests that are calling to end the war or for humanitarian aid or for peace. But I'm not protesting against anyone. I'm just protesting for reconciliation, pro peace and pro humanitarian aid. 

 I 

Maoz Inon: don't want to say I'm happy as I've ever been, but I feel I'm in the right place. And this is how I see and again, people keep asking me about revenge and anger 

and 

I'm saying it's not the good, the answer. 

Because let's say that, yes, let's revenge, let's assume we are revenging now and the Israeli Air Force located the Hamas Burned my parents house with them inside and while bombing him they are also killing an innocent person in Gaza So is it legitimate now for his family to revenge back? 

So where would it end? We'll keep revenging forever? What's the point? So I'm willing to forgive. I don't want to revenge I don't want to take anyone's life because it would never bring my parents back to life So what's the point? The point is in a reconciliation and forgiveness. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah. That cycle of violence really doesn't help anyone. 

Doesn't liberate anyone. And I hear what you're saying too, about this crumbling effect of grief and rage of it, rendering you sick, as you said, and ineffective. And it's impossible to be a bridge between communities. It's impossible to be a bridge for peace. If you're crumbling, if you can't . 

hold up the mission. I myself, I'm a Jewish woman. I identify as reconstructionist and I grew up in a very Zionist household in the United States. I'm the granddaughter of a holocaust survivor. And I've experienced being really shamed for my pro Palestine stance as like a betrayal of my grandfather's sacrifice and a betrayal of my family. 

And I'm wondering if you've experienced any kind of this Backlash or response to your peace activism of people saying things like you're dishonoring your parents or kind of weaponizing your parents memory against you to try to get you to do something else. 

Maoz Inon: Because I'm a bereaved family, so , I'm sheltered. 

Okay, I have the privilege to say in the Israeli community, in the Jewish community, I have the privilege to say whatever I want. . And it's very difficult for someone to come against me. But I do go into arguments and also very soon because I'm enjoying also spirit of the argument, the arguing it's fun to argue, but there is no point in arguing. 

There is just no point besides having fun. . If we'll argue, or if we choose a side, this is how you will never hear me or say I'm pro this or pro that. I'm pro humanity, I'm pro peace and I'm pro reconciliation. With the German people, the Jewish people were able to reconcile with the German that killed third of our people. 

So it should be pretty easy if we just decide to reconcile with the Palestinian. Because in one day in Auschwitz. Or two days of working days in Auschwitz. More Jews were killed than in the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine. So if you're also talking realistic and numbers, we are not talking about big numbers, at least not for our people. 

And I'm also, I'm giving always example from Rwanda. One million were murdered in one month. Half a million rape cases. in Rwanda and they've decided or they were forced to reconcile the Oto and the Tutsi. And why should we need wait for someone to force our reconciliation? We are grown up. We can initiate on our own. 

We must. Start the process of reconciliation, I hope we'll have time to talk about the future, because if we won't start reconciling now, there will be no future. The present will be the future, and that's horrible. I will do everything I'm doing, and I'm not alone. Also, really important to say, there are so many individuals and organizations, Palestinians and Israelis. 

Arabs and Jewish that are working now day and night Some of them grassroot initiatives some already like high scale Initiatives to make this war the last war and it should be And as much as i'm concerned, it will be the last war in the region So also to your family, I'm not arguing with no one I'm saying, so 

what's your offer? What's your alternative that we keep fighting and revenging and dying and live on our soil? No future in living on the soil. Just no future. So choose humanity. Choose peace. 

Katie Bogen: I know that you're on the ground working with peace activists who are Palestinian, who are Arab Israeli. 

What does reconciliation and beyond reconciliation but reparation? Because I know in the United States we have this debate on reparations for folks whose families were enslaved and folks who really had loss of economic mobility, no access to resources, suffered redlining, suffered horrible police brutality, like there have been generations of harm from the racial inequities in United States society that have never really been fully addressed or repaired. 

And I wonder in the Israeli and Palestinian context what not only repair would look like, but paying back what is owed to the folks who have suffered and who are not able to just decide to forgive. 

Maoz Inon: This is not an easy question. And also this is not necessarily the question that I know how to answer. 

 Only the Two types of people in Israel that has all the answers, the politicians and the generals. They have all the answers, but we see where the answer has taken us and brought what they brought to us. So I don't have all the answer, but I want to share with you how I see the future and how do I get to the future what's my roadmap or steps that we are taking now? 

And I think it will answer this question too. First. It's going to the past. The Palestinian and Israeli story was fit in the past, in the holy books, the Quran and the old testaments with the different chosen son, Isaac and it was basically going parallel stories and for centuries and millenniums, Jews and Arabs were living together in peace regarding to what happened to the Jewish people in Europe. 

in, the Christian communities. So Jews and Muslims, most of the time, live peacefully among each other in North Africa, in the Arab countries, in the Gulf, in Iraq and Iran and others. And then with the beginning of the Zionist movement and the Palestinian National Movement, our stories, the gap between our stories become wider and wider. 

And it's definitely with the independence of Israel and the Nakba. And all the war we've been waging on each other. And now, our stories are apart and as far from each other as they ever been. Now with the present, the gap is wider than ever. But, and this is a big huge, but there is a miracle. 

There is a miracle. Our stories meet in the future. And I will read, and later I'll tell you where I'm reading from. Our stories meet in the future That is Based on the principles of recognition and acknowledgement, dignity and equality, security and safety, agency and inclusion and trust through healing. 

And now we need to envision this future to model it and to create a roadmap. How we reach there in four to six years. This is the timeframe in which we're going to achieve peace. And also it's also based on the recent history of Israel after the war with Egypt in '73. And people also israeli's forget how Egypt was a powerful enemy receiving military aid from Russia like we are receiving from the US nowadays. 

And only four years after Sadat, President Sadat is visiting Israel and the kids, the children of Israel, the Jewish children are waving the flag of Egypt, our worst enemy. Till that day. In the streets of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Haifa. I'm saying that, and then people that are a bit older than me, telling me, yes, we are waving the flag of Egypt. 

And,till Saadat visit, 60 percent of the population were against the negotiation. Not against returning the Sinai Peninsula, and evacuating all the settlers from Sinai. They were against the negotiation and snipers were waiting for Sa'adat airplane. The security forces of Israel thought , it's going to be a terrorist attack. 

But of course, President Sa'adat is coming and Menachem Begin, our late prime minister says we can prevent the war, but we cannot prevent the peace. And we just forgot it. We completely forgot this legacy and lessons. And two years after, in 79, the peace accord was signed and this is the most secure and safe border for Israel nowadays, so it can be achieved in the border with Gaza and can be achieved in the border with the West Bank, but we must have a border and we must have a diplomatic agreement with the identity that sits on the other side and it's achievable and we must do it I'm living the future and in order to achieve this future, I'm using the same methods or five steps that I used in all my business and social enterprise. And it's the dream, values, principles, partnerships, strategy plan and execution. And my dream, I saw peace. I saw it in my vision. The star of peace was speaking to me just four days after my parents were killed. 

And the star of peace told me to follow him. And that's where I'm going. And the principles, we were in Geneva, 70 Palestinian and Israelis working very hard to write a charter, one page charter with a common ground for the future and I was reading the principles for the future from there and we're building partnership and this is what we are doing now. 

I Want you Katie to be my partner. I we must be partners. We must have your support. We must have the international community support in our efforts to achieve peace. So we are building many partnerships. And we are now writing the roadmap. We are writing the strategy plan, how to change the public mind, the details and segments, education, security and safety, reconciliation, the compensation, all those should be part of the strategy plan. 

But I don't have the answer. We are many people really great in their fields. And now I'm reading about reconciliation. So reconciliation must be taught and learned in the Palestinian and Israeli public. So we must start a campaign. What is reconciliation? What does it mean? It's not one day you turn the light and there is reconciliation. 

It's a process. And we should start working this part. now to execute our strategy plan by the year 2030. We are going to celebrate this. It's very easy if you think of it this way, 

Katie Bogen: you do have such beautiful optimism and I wanna find that infectious and I think because I've been watching the last six months of bombardment against Gaza and what people are experiencing over the border and the destruction of their space. 

I'm not sure what six years from now looks like in the physical area of Gaza and what do you think is the responsibility of the Israeli government that's really contributed to its destruction to facilitate its repair? 

Maoz Inon: First, it's huge responsibility. but you sometimes someone has done an accident and it's his responsibility. 

But it doesn't have the ability, the skills, the know how to fix it, okay? We need to be fixed. The Israeli society needs to be fixed, okay? And this is why we must have international support. And it's like in Europe, there was the Marshall Plan, that the U. S. invested billions and billions to rebuild the European structure. 

this is when people also ask me Maoz How do peace looks like? It looks like France and Germany. They killed millions in wars they waged on each other in the 20th century. They killed millions. And now they have one currency, one passport, voting to the same parliament, as soon the election gonna be. 

And there are no checkpoints. This is peace. So if they were able to achieve that, after millions that lost their life, Of course, we'll be able to achieve it, but we'll need international support, and it will, should, it must be international efforts by ourself, we're not going to make it. It's as sad as it is, but that's the fact, and that's the truth. 

We're not going to make it on our own. We need you. 

Katie Bogen: International resources, absolutely. Just having funding to rebuild what actually repairing the buildings will look like for folks who will 

Maoz Inon: live better. 

And the U. S. already investing four billions a year in military aid that is being sent to Israel. 

So I'm saying just match it with the reconciliation and peace aid. And then two million or four million a year matching this budget will have peace much, much sooner than 2030. If you just match your military aid with reconciliation and peace aid, it will be so easy to make peace because now we are being receiving only weapons. 

So of course we are receiving weapons. What will happen with those weapons? Whoa, just makes sense. It's so logistic, logical. But if we receive support for our shared future initiatives, shared society initiatives, reconciliation initiatives, education initiatives, then we make peace in no time, really no time. 

Katie Bogen: So stopping the flow of guns, enhancing the flow of money for other things, for anything else. 

Maoz Inon: Yeah. Yes. 

Katie Bogen: I want to be able to dive into to more of your activism story. You have this really unique story in that it comes through the tourism and travel industry, but it really merges with this Purpose for positive social change. You have this Inn that you established in Nazareth with the Palestinian family. 

You have this very intentional cross cultural dialogue between Israeli Jews and Palestinians. And I know you've received all of these awards for your work and really bridging these divides. And I'm wondering right now, like in the current context with everything you're seeing around you, how do you feel that responsible tourism Can drive the political change that you want to see for Israel and Palestine. 

Maoz Inon: Yeah it's a great question. I think like the crisis is an opportunity for making peace also this crisis and through tourism will promote equality, justice and reconciliation. It's also a great opportunity. Tourism is producing about 10 percent of the world GDP. Some research focus says will reach up to 15%. 

So it's a huge industry. It's channels a lot, a lot, a lot of money. And it's not just Israel is very difficult economic situation. It's also our neighboring countries. Like Jordan and Syria and Lebanon and Egypt. So through tourism we can channel a very positive flow of money that will bridge between the region Okay, so if someone is staying in jerusalem and then is a few days in jordan and they will cross to saudi and then he take a boat through the gulf So they can be easily arranged a 21 day package or if it's a backpacking or a gap year can be take a few months. 

And this energy of international community that is visiting the local communities and it's just building a bridge. Tourism is building a bridge that is based on us, on travelers. And it's very powerful in terms of antidote or a cure for the dehumanization that is going at the moment. So tourism is a cure for dehumanization and tourism can raise can support small businesses. 

 I'm one of the founders of Abraham Group. We are running four hostels within Israel and a tour company. And we are an impact company. We are following the 17, SDGs, sustainable development goals that the UN defined, and we work closely with small businesses and supporting small businesses throughout Israel and with all our suppliers. 

So when you are supporting small businesses, you are making the gap, the equality, the economic equality better. . And and we are also a venue where people can meet and interact in a safe zone. And many of our employees, we have a mixed team, Palestinian and Israelis. So they work together and they share their stories with each other and they're also enjoying the time together on parties, on special events. 

So they are one community they are just by Knowing when the other, if the, when the Palestinians or the Muslim are on Eid , on the holiday. Okay. Why are you fasting? Ah, it's Ramadan. So why would, maybe we'll do an iftar evening in Tel Aviv and maybe one in Nazareth and many more in Jerusalem. 

So this is how we you share your story, beautiful to see someone, jewish person that never. had Iftar dinner now, everyone, at least once a year, so on an equal basis. So this is part of what tourism can bring and also responsible tourism. 

Basically, what does it mean? basically means that the main beneficiaries of the tourism industry should be the local communities. And with each of our properties in each destination, we don't come and say, we know what's the society or the community needs. We are there to answer the needs that are coming from the ground. 

Sometimes it's a venue. Sometimes it's mentoring. Sometimes it's any finance support. So, Okay, we will help and facilitate that also. So in each of our properties, we have a different strategy, adopting the local community needs. And this is something only tourism can do in a way no other industry that am aware of that can do. 

And in Nazareth, like a house that was in a neighborhood that was abandoned. Now it's alive with more than 50 hostels and guest houses and galleries and coffee shops. And yes, it's very difficult now during the war. It's very, very difficult. But we are resilient and we are working together and we'll survive. 

And then recovery. will be much faster. And it's now legitimate by Jewish people to come and spend a night in a Palestinian city, which was unthinkable. And it can happen the same from both sides for Palestinian to come and visit Tel Aviv and a lot. And for Israelis to come and visit Eastern Jerusalem or Ramallah one day. 

And that day can come soon. 

Katie Bogen: kind of 

answered my next question, but I want to put it out there anyway, because I feel like we've been circling this topic of you have received criticism for, as people say, like capitalizing on the occupation by having tours that go to the West. Bank. There was that article that mentions Abraham tours, which was published in a sage journal that said that this sort of tourism reveals the complicity of international tourism in sustaining Israeli settler colonial dispossession and military occupation. 

And I'm curious what you think of this perspective. 

Maoz Inon: Again, we were receiving a criticism, but we are always working with Palestinian partners. It's in Nazareth and it's in the Palestinian territories. We're also working with Palestinian partners and everything we are doing, if it's marketing, if it's our messaging or how we frame those tours, it's going side by side to their messaging. 

We're feeling very aligned and very determined to continue And that believing and practicing tourism as a bridge and it's not always easy. And sometimes there are obstacles and sometimes they are blocked in the roads, literally. But if tourists won't see it, then How would he be able to report on social media or to post about the situation. 

So just by seeing the news. we totally believe that. Boots on the ground. Look into Palestinian in the eyes and also look into settlers in the eyes, and I'm practicing the same in my life. Someone asked me, Would you meet the Hamas leader? So I told him, Of course I would meet the Hamas leader if there would be the opportunity, and I would also meet man who killed my parents. 

I want to meet him. I want to know what motivated him. I want to know about his life. I want to know what we have done wrong. We have done something totally, totally wrong. As Israelis, as humanity. We've done something totally wrong if this is how we act. But if we won't listen and learn, then we, it's again, it's a shield, another wall we are putting between us and to the other side. 

So I'm in my personal life, but also in my business life, I believe. That the lower the wall, the higher the security and the higher the possibilities for a better future. 

Katie Bogen: that's such a beautiful metaphor and such a beautiful framing of the lower the wall, the higher the security of you really feel like you don't have to maintain a wall between you and your neighbors, they get to feel the same way. 

And what a beautiful foundation for peace and collaboration building. I really loved that answer. In a recent interview with Owen Jones, Gideon Levi, a Haaretz journalist and prominent critic of the Israeli occupation, wound up painting an almost hopeless picture where the peacemakers and anti occupation movement within Israel are really brutally silenced and repressed by right wing extremists who are in control of the Knesset. 

 I'm curious for you, who, you really have These feet on the ground and this foundation in the community collaborating with people who are Palestinian, the people in Nazareth. Have you experienced any repression or silencing or intimidation because of your peace work? 

Maoz Inon: Personally, not. Even the contrary, I've been invited to speak in more and more public occasions than it used to be. 

but yes, in peace protest or rallies. Many times are oppressed, but it's making the coalition of pro peace much stronger and aligned. So I see everything is an opportunity. If we are being oppressed, then we have a very good cause to approach the foreign ambassadors that are based in Israel, the foreign media, like we are doing now. 

we might be silenced. And oppressed, but we are not giving up. Even the contrary, if we are being oppressed, we are threatening someone. We're threatening the administration or the government or the regime. So I'm not Afraid or it's not necessarily a bad sign to be silenced and oppressed. 

You can turn it around to your benefit. 

Katie Bogen: Whereas if someone is trying to stop you from speaking, it must mean you have something important to say. 

Maoz Inon: Exactly.This is why I don't see the situation as hopeless. The contrary. It's as hopeful as it's Because such a huge crisis and catastrophe. 

So from here, we must build a future. 

Katie Bogen: The only way to go is toward reparations and reconciliation and restitution. there's no other option. If people are moving from a space of humanity, there's just no other option. We can keep, sending Israel weapons. We can keep participating in this cycle of violence. 

But as you said earlier, it seems so unsustainable. 

Maoz Inon: Exactly. Yeah. 

Katie Bogen: So you've used the phrase making hope quite often in your talks and your interviews, particularly with your Palestinian peace partner, Hamza. You both talk about hope as an action, as a verb, rather than just a wish or a belief. And for you, what does that mean now on the ground as an activist in Israel? 

What do you envision that hope leading to? 

Maoz Inon: The hope is leading to peace . This is, was really it's really changed my life to listening to Hamza saying that hope is an action. I said, wow, this guy's a genius, . And then I start using it because I've been invited to board meetings of a civil society organization to classrooms. 

And to others sometimes leaders, but sometimes common people like ourselves. And I'm telling them, you must walk to make hope. I'm not going here to give it to you, but there are so many opportunities to make hope. I would say, I would name some of the organization, but there are so many others that I'm I apologize for not mentioning, but standing together. 

A family circle, women wage peace, combatants for peace, and enhanced community Vadi Atir project and really many more. There are music events now shared by Jews and Arabs. There are meetings, dialogue meetings, some initiated by individual, just by themselves. They fill the gap and the walls the separation between the communities. 

So they start doing a dialogue dialogue meetings they initiate. So there are so many, really so many. So just join one and there are now WhatsApp Group, it's called messages of solidarity that you can join the English, the Arabic or the Hebrew version, and you will get notification what's happening when, so you don't need to invent the wheel and start making all by yourself. 

It's very difficult, but you can just join others. And it's throughout the country. And just join in making hope and it's such a spirit lifting, activity welcoming everyone who's listening. And even my fellow listeners abroad, we're doing now more and more events overseas. 

I know that spending together now are touring the state and Hamza and Magen are going to University in London, and I encourage you to contact me directly and it will be great if you can post my Personal social media and whatsapp number contact me directly and we are group. We are many Palestinian israelis would love to share and make hope with you wherever you are if it's webinar Through visiting your communities through singing together brainstorming How we gonna make peace? 

Katie Bogen: That's so spectacular and just very emotionally and spiritually generous. We'll put your contact information ways that folks can get in touch with you in the episode description I want to follow up too on, you know, we've talked about making hope. We've talked about building peace and how no one person gets to decide what peace looks like and no one person gets to decide what hope is going to lead to, but narrowing it just to you for a second. 

 What does peace look like to you? Is it two states, one state, something else? What do you envision for the future? 

Maoz Inon: I don't care. I don't care. It can be one state. It can be 10 states. I don't mind. As long as the principles of equality, reconciliation, acknowledgement, dignity, security are present I don't care. 

just don't care. So yeah. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah. Yeah that's such an interesting perspective to have because so many people have very crystallized ideas of exactly what they want. the next step of this reconciliation process or even just like disarmament and stopping the ongoing aggression. 

They have such specific ideas of what they want this to look like. in some ways that's beautiful because they are Actively hopeful. They are making hope a verb if they have this idea of what they want to happen. And on the other hand, if things happen differently, then is that going to feel threatening? 

Or is that going to feel delegitimizing? And I worry about that line that we walk, particularly in some of the conversations I've seen on social media of this is exactly how things happen. Next. I'm just not sure I agree with that. 

Maoz Inon: Yeah, it's also because I know that there is a difference between the dream and the real world. 

 In all my business initiative, there was this vision and we ended somewhere else near close by, but it wasn't exactly the place. So I'm open. I'm open to all opportunities. And I want to make room for everyone to join me in my efforts. by now just deciding on one Specific solution. Then I would leave so many outside of the room and I want everyone to group together and then we'll see together and there will be a negotiation and there will be a time for everyone to start process. 

What for me was very fast. But I know that It's not going to be so fast for the public. I'm open to this delay, but not saying there should be no delay in the dream and in envisioning the future. 

Katie Bogen: Envision the future now and know that the actual work toward it might take a little while. 

Maoz Inon: Yes, this is a great framing of what I believe. 

Katie Bogen: Speaking on that, how can the international community, how can folks in the United States or abroad support you and other peacemakers who are on the ground in Israel? 

Maoz Inon: Thanks for asking. If you aren't asking, I would say it anyway. We need two major things to amplify our voices. 

Just to amplify social media through your representatives, it's your communities mosques, churches synagogue, spread these words that there are many Israelis and Palestinians that are on the ground working very hard to achieve peace. And we must have our voices amplified because as we say before, it's many times that we are being silenced and oppressed. 

So amplify our voices. Second. Help us build our legitimacy. We are considered as dreamers. Yes, we are dreamers and we are visionaries but we are dreamers and visionary with a plan and we need the international support to build our legitimacy. Like what you Katie are doing now is exactly that. You're doing both building my legitimacy and amplify our voices. 

So we need more and more, as many as possible. Invite us, talk to us. Spread our message. And if you are in like a board of a community or civil society organization, or if you are by yourself representatives, speak about us give us credibility for what we are doing. Talk to us and visit when you are here in Israel. 

Or invite us to your parliaments. We are doing it. All the time, but we need more and more of that. And then we'll change the course, not just about war and oppression or occupation to the direction of peace and reconciliation. And if you are influencer, if you are just seeing what we are saying is making sense, send it to your family. 

It's also a lot. 

Katie Bogen: There's a narrative thread that, that I keep hearing from you, that you're right is missing from this broader discourse. You go on social media and you see the absolute extremes, right? And you don't hear about the people on the ground who are really the peacemakers and the bridge builders and folks who are trying to collaborate. 

And we don't hear that that is most people that most people really want peace, that most people want this to end are willing to be flexible with whatever that takes. As opposed to having this really extreme rigidity of this is how things have to happen next. And so I have found everything you've shared today to be really Moving and grounding, in my own sense of hope that another version of this is possible and that a more beautiful, collaborative and equitable future is possible. 

I want to know what's your message to Jewish people in Israel, the U. S., around the world who are also grieving October 7th and don't themselves see a partner or a path for peace with Palestinians. What would you like to say to them? 

Maoz Inon: Yes, October the 7th was a tragedy day for the Jewish people, the most tragedy day since the Holocaust. 

But if we just live the trauma and live it ongoing and ongoing, we'll be traumatized forever. And we won't be able to escape and to find a new path to heal us. And the best way I found for myself, but for many others, to dealing and to cure in trauma, is to find the meaning and chase it. 

And the greatest meaning, I think for human is peace. This is the greatest meaning. And not only that I want my parents to be victims of peace and not of war. I'm also willing to sacrifice everything for making peace. I think if you will envision the future, we need to learn from the past. Yes, of course. 

 The Palestinian, because without knowing their past and their present, we won't be able to be no good, secure and safe future for the Israelis, if there will be no secure, safe and equal future for the Palestinians. 

 We are here. We are destined to live together between the river and the sea. We cannot change that, but we can change the way we are handling the relationship between us. And if we were able to forgive and reconcile with the German people, we must practice it again and reconcile and live together with the Palestinians. 

And the land is big enough. It's not about territory. It's about. equality about security about safety and about dignity and let's practice it 

Katie Bogen: i find that so stunning the land is big enough it's the world is wide enough to fit us all i'm curious about the reverse As well of what about your message to Palestinians and Arabs who see the actions of the Israeli government, the occupation, ongoing atrocities in Gaza, and don't see a partner or path for peace with Israelis. 

Maoz Inon: I'm telling them again, exactly what I said to the, my Jewish and Israeli friend, because I getting the same question from both sides. From the Israeli side, Maoz, there are no other Palestinians like yourself. You are the only. Like, where are your similar or Palestinian partners? It's only you. 

And Palestinian is telling me exactly what you say. It's a pity you are the only Israelis. Think this way, because they want to kill us and to bomb us and to erase us. telling them, I'm not alone. There are thousands, dozens of thousands and more of Israelis and Palestinians that want a better future. 

And we must learn from the past. But stop living it and we should stop living the present. We should start living the future and start modeling the future and start learning for other our personal history from the war with Egypt, for example, and from the world history between Japan and the U. S., between the Oto and the Tutsi in Rwanda, between Germany and France. 

We must learn that all conflict will end at the end. It's just a matter of will and how many will die and sacrifice their life till it happens. But we sacrificed enough. I'm telling it to both people. We sacrificed enough. enjoy the fruits of peace and stop sacrificing ourselves for this 

Katie Bogen: absolutely love to hear that. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm a doctoral student in clinical psychology in the United States and I'm a trauma therapist. So I work with folks who have clinically significant post traumatic stress disorder to try to get their PTSD symptoms under control to the point where they're not like impacting people's day to day lives. 

And what you say about meaning making of drawing a narrative thread about, this trauma happened and I learned this thing from it. And now I get to do this beautiful work that makes me feel effective. That is part of what is so healing for so many trauma survivors. And I just find it really profound that you speak to that in such a beautiful way. 

even with your own experience and even with such a recent trauma, I think the fact that you have identified peace as a meaning, as a way to make meaning is so spectacular. Would you be able to share with us a notable post, a poem, a piece of writing that's helped you to navigate the conflict or a stress management practice that's been helpful to you? 

Maoz Inon: So before that, yes, I would love to, and I prepared myself. I want to show you a mandala. My mom, she was a mandala painter. She painted this in her catalogue. My daughter made this catalogue for her when she was 17. She chose like about a hundred of the thousand mandalas she painted. And what I'm showing you now, It's the only mandala she gave me as a present. 

And in the mandala it's written in Hebrew, All our dreams can be fulfilled if we have the courage to chase them. So this is now, uh, this is the mandala my mom gave me. And, uh, I totally, I read it completely different. Before and after October the 7th. And I'm sharing it also now with everyone. 

I made postcards, I giving, giving it to everyone. And I want to read you a poem that was written by Taha Muhammad Ali. He is a Palestinian poet. He died three years ago. And I know his son very well, Osama. And I think it was October 20th. Osama is calling me and telling me, Maoz, I listened to you on the radio. 

And in 2006, my father wrote a poem and it's about you. I told him what, what do you mean? He told me, read the poem, it's about you. So I will, I will uh, share it with you now. It's called Revenge, by Taha Muhammad Ali. At times, At times I wish I could meet in a duel the man who killed my father and razed our home, expelling me into a narrow country. 

And if he killed me, I would rest at last, and if I were ready, I would take my revenge. But if it come to light, when my rival appeared, that he had a mother waiting for him, or a father who would put his right hand over the heart's place in his chest, whenever his son was late, even by just quarter an hour, for a meeting they had set then I would not kill him, even if I could. 

Likewise. I would not murder him if it were soon made clear that he had a brother or sisters who loved him and constantly longed to see him. Or if he had a wife to greet him, and children who could not bear his absence and whom his gifts would thrill. Or if he had friends or companions, neighbors he knew, or allies from prison, or a hospital room, or classmates from school, asking about him and sending him regards. 

But if he turned out to be on his own, cut off like a branch from a tree, without a mother or father, with neither a brother nor sister, wifeless, without a child, and without kin or neighbors or friends, colleagues or companions then I'd add not a thing to his pain, within that aloneness not a torment of death, and not a sorrow of passing away. 

Instead I'd be content to ignore him when I passed him by on the street, as I convinced myself that paying no attention in itself was a kind of revenge. 

So I read this poem now a few times a day. And I try to live my life. 

Katie Bogen: That is absolutely beautiful and striking. And I think something that a lot of folks could really benefit from hearing right now. 

Maoz Inon: When I read it to Israelis I, or I've been asked, or I'm telling them, many of you ask me or want to ask, Whom will you make peace with? 

Maoz, with, there are no Palestinians that want to make peace with you. Then I have a very solid and great answer. I will make peace with Osama, the son of Taha Muhammad Ali, who wrote this amazing poem. With him. I will make peace. It's 

Katie Bogen: really such an open invitation of you can make peace with anyone. 

You can make peace with yourself. You can make peace with the land. It really is. I attended a talk recently on this idea of secure attachment and how so many people act. from a place of pain when they're feeling detached and isolated and that we can have secure attachment to our idea of culture. We can have secure attachment to our idea of community, of faith of land and space, of the way that time changes throughout the day. 

We can have secure attachment to mornings, afternoons, evenings, and nights. And when we, when expand our idea of secure attachment and what we're able to link ourselves to it makes our attachment to things like conflict or war or violence or racialized identity or whatever it is it changes it fundamentally because we have such a breadth of things we're able to understand as part of us and whatever grounds us to our existence and i just found that really beautiful and i think it comes through in the poem as well 

Maoz Inon: Thank you also. 

Katie Bogen: Yeah, of course. And that was such a beautiful poem. And to close our time together, I'd like to share a prayer, if that's okay. We have a closing prayer. May all beings everywhere thrive in peace and dignity and share in all our joys and freedoms. And may we see true peace in the Middle East for all in our lifetime. 

Amen. Amen. Thank you.