SuperHumanizer Podcast

UN Hero Resists: Occupation vs Non-Violence

• Dr. Hani Chaabo, Issa Amro • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Join Issa Amro, a courageous Palestinian activist from Hebron, as he shares his compelling journey of nonviolent resistance against Israeli occupation. Co-founder of Youth Against Settlements, Issa's work is inspired by leaders like Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela. Recognized by the UN as a Human Rights Defender, Issa speaks candidly about the realities of apartheid, collective punishment, and his powerful "shooting back" camera project that exposes systemic injustice. He discusses the path to peace through equality, mutual respect, and dismantling oppressive structures, calling for global solidarity and creative resistance.

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Dr. Hani Chaabo: Hello, everyone. I have Issa Amro with me here today on Superhumanizer. Wow. Where do I begin with this remarkable human being? When we say people are heroes, we truly mean this man. He's a Palestinian activist from Hebron in the West Bank, inspired by nonviolent resistance from leaders like Martin Luther King Mahatma Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela. 

He's the co founder of Youth Against Settlements, a grassroots organization dedicated to using non violent resistance and civil disobedience to fight the Israeli occupation. It's the only organization of its kind in Palestine and is represented as an NGO in the United Nations Human Rights Council. 

Isa's dedication to non violence and human rights is truly heroic. He's been recognized by the United Nations. As a human rights defender of the year, and his work has been featured in numerous documentaries and articles. He's also faced significant challenges, including harassment and arrests by both Israeli authorities and the Palestinian Authority. 

In 2023, during an interview, an Israeli soldier violently harassed Issa on camera, which went viral. Through it all, he's still committed to peace and justice. Issa, we're so grateful you're able to join us. I know a lot is happening for you, including right before this interview. So thank you so much for being here. 

Issa Amro: Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to be with you. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: The opportunity and the blessing is ours. Thank you so much. Before I ask you about all the difficulty and challenges you go through in Palestine, I want to start just a little bit on a positive note to, know you through your love of Palestine. 

So I'm going to ask you, what's your favorite thing about being a Palestinian? 

Issa Amro: All my life is positive because I'm a Palestinian. I'm very proud that Palestinians are steadfast, remaining, staying in their land and keeping their land, keeping their optimism, their hope, for freedom and justice, in spite of the Israeli oppression and the Israeli apartheid. 

I see that energy on people and women and kids. The solidarity among Palestinians to each other is really amazing. The social life. Palestine is very beautiful as well. You feel the history of the land. You feel that the land is giving you energy and power to continue to make it free, to make it a place where equality and justice and freedom is floating. 

So I really can't live anywhere else except Palestine. It's for me as the fish only lives in the sea and the majority of Palestinians who are in Palestine, they want to stay and remain and the Palestinians who were expelled 75 years ago and so on, they don't feel satisfied and all of them, they want to come back to Palestine because Palestine is so special. 

There is something special in it and I can't describe it by words. You need to live it. To feel it. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Truly being a Palestinian is one of, I think, the most profound nationalities to be. Thank you for sharing that with us. Can you tell us a little bit about how you grew up in Hebron and how it influenced your commitment to your activism? 

Issa Amro: I was born in 1980. 

To a Palestinian family. My father lost his father in the fifties. My grandfather was killed by the Israeli military and my father was injured 1967 when he was trying to feed the community. and trying to take food to them when the Israeli occupation occupied Hebron, and my father almost lost his life. My parents wanted to raise me and raise my sisters and brothers away from occupation. They wanted us to be educated, to take care of our studies, to to play soccer, to have a little bit disconnection from the occupation negative influence on us. As a child I was playing soccer in the morning and in the evening and studying very hard to be the best student in the school. 

And I was playing soccer very well. That was my childhood in Hebron, but it was the beginning of the settlements, the beginning of settlers moving into the city, but they were minority and it didn't affect the Palestinian society. 

And it didn't affect Hebron because Hebron is one of the biggest cities in Palestine. It's the city of handmade stuff. It's the city of the wholesale market. It's the production city in Palestine. So you could see me living, going around, playing, going to the banana market to steal banana from the banana storage. 

Because, they keep the banana in a special storage. So I used to steal banana and I used to go to the camels. cycle in the area, play soccer. I was a happy kid, to be very honest and spoiled by my parents till 1994. 

That was the milestone in my life. The first milestone, when Baruch Goldstein, Israeli American Retired doctor broke into the Ibrahimi mosque. He killed 29 Palestinians and hundreds were injured. I am a very peaceful child. I didn't know much about the occupation. My family only talks about physics, math this is what we were talking about, I was suddenly shocked Of what happened in the Ibrahim Mosque and the result of the massacre. 

It's normal to have people as Baruch Goldstein, even in the United States, that they go in to holy places and kill the result of that massacre was that we were punished as Palestinians. Who are the victims of the massacre. 

So I didn't go to my school for three months because of the massacre. I was not able to walk on the streets. Curfew for two months. The mosque was divided for two parts . All the external yards of the massacre were confiscated and given to the settlers. So I was not allowed to play soccer where I used to play, , imagine that we were killed. 

And then I started afraid of settlers and of soldiers. I needed company to go back to the school. I was afraid, despite that my school is almost 2 3 minutes walking distance from my house. That affected me a lot. To see that injustice, and to see that, how come a criminal killed us, and we were punished. 

 He's one of the Kahanists, , and something else, Hani, is very important. His people now are the government in Israel. So Itamar Ben Gvir, Smotrich, many people, likud they are the government now. Imagine that Baruch Goldstein was condemned War criminal, and he was really, really, you know, very bad person and his ideology. 

The Kahanists were put in the terrorist class in the United States and the State Department everywhere. But now they are the mainstream. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes, which is so unfortunate and that extremism. We're seeing it. Everywhere from the war in Gaza to your daily life to the plans that are being made in terms of settlement expansion to the extremist rhetoric that keeps coming out of the Israeli government that's genocidal and supremacist. 

It isolates any rights only to Israeli people and wants to push out the Palestinians from every single area, including in the occupied Palestinian territories. So , it's truly concerning that people that idolize people like Baruch Goldstein are now in the government , and you at 14 years old had to experience this. 

Issa Amro: Yes, and it was not mainstream in Israel. This, these kind of behaviors were not mainstream but by time we were very optimistic as Hebronites that we had a peace solution. Palestinians, the majority of Palestinians, to be very honest, They had good intention for peace, and they accepted the two state solution. 

In 1997, they divided Hebron for H1 and H2 until 1999, that we have two states, Hebron will be part of Palestine, the majority of Palestinians were very optimistic that the refugees will come back, East Jerusalem will be the capital of Palestine, then we will end The occupation and the oppression and the suffering of the Palestinian people. 

But I was naive. I didn't read the agreement. I was looking to the TV, to the media. But if you read the agreement, you will find out that it was not peace. It was hiding the occupation to keep a permanent control of Palestinian people. So they never ever The Israelis had good intention for Peace Never. 

 In Oslo, imagine that this is something very important to talk about. In Oslo, they controlled how much water we drink, how much electricity we consume, how much food we eat. That is Oslo, no, people don't know that. That in Oslo we are not allowed to dig as Palestinians to get water from the water aquifers. In Area A, in Palestinian land, the people don't know that generating electricity is not allowed according to Oslo. 

That we should buy electricity from Israeli companies, electricity companies, and they don't sell us the enough electricity we need. The same with water. We are not allowed to dig to get more water, but they sell us much less than what we need for basic needs. So no agriculture, no industry. So it's a permanent control. 

This is the intention, the import and export, no import and no export without Israeli permission. Not only that, even if you get a permission, they give us quota how many sheets we import. So they decide how much meat we eat as Palestinians. When I read that I was shocked, that they didn't have good intentions and we had very bad, leadership who accepted this kind of fake peace agreement, then Israel refused to give up the land and give us land and give us autonomy and a real authority. So the second Intifada started, but me personally, I was going on building myself to become electrical engineer. So in 1998, I went into Palestine Polytechnic university to study electrical engineering. To be an engineer, usually I don't advise people to study engineering now anymore because I suffered as a student. 

No, no holidays. Even the holidays it's a lot of assignments, you have to study more than the normal days. This is, how to become, an engineer. And I was studying Hani day and night to get an honor my plans were to become a professor in engineering. 

That was my personal dream. And I was doing it, I was getting, , good marks and I was doing very well. The second intifada started, it didn't stop me. I continued my studies because my main focus, my main goal was my educational degree. I wanted, to go on masters and PhD and to become a professor. 

That was me. This was how I wanted to, help my people, to build myself. To serve my people. It's not only me many many palestinians dream in the same way, families They try all the time to help their kids. Women and you know the female children and the male children to study so we have very high rate of education In we have more masters and phd degrees than the israelis We are very proud to say it 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Never knew that 

Issa Amro: nobody talked about this, that Palestinians and occupation, they have more degrees, more master's degrees and more Ph. D. degrees than the Israelis. I think we have more doctors now because my doctors, they go to work in Israeli hospitals now. Engineers, I think we have more engineers than Israel. And then they claim that they are civilized and we are not. Imagine that they decide who's civilized and not, according to your political attitude You know, if you are against the occupation, you are not civilized. 

If you are a fascist, , , as Baruch Goldstein and Baruch, , Marzel and Itamar Ben Gvir and Smotrich, you are civilized, but we use the term extremism. I don't see it like that. Try to find much, much worse. I don't know what, what, what is it in English, but maybe fascism , racist, something more than that, because I feel it's more than extreme ideology. 

It's much more than that. So unfortunately, 2003, my last semester in the second intifada, the occupation decided to punish me and punish all the students in my university in collective punishment because they are professional in collective punishment. They love it because it's part of their supremacy. 

It's part of their racism. It's not about security. It's not about to achieve anything. It's about to punish us, to feel rejoiced, to feel satisfied that look what we can do to Palestinians. It means we are strong. It means we have power on them. It means that we can crack them. It means that we can affect their dignity. 

We can dehumanize them and we can at least make them not think about freedom and about future because they want us all the time to keep asking for food, for shelter and for electricity and for the basics . So they treat us as animals who are seeking food and shelter not as a nation who are seeking justice and freedom And equality this is it's a strategy. 

It's not new even from day one Israel from day one is apartheid state but they were hiding it. They were hiding their attitudes They were hiding their racism 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: yes 

Issa Amro: to Europeans, to Americans look, we have a democracy, we have a human rights and all of that. And it came out now and we see now what is their values. 

So they closed my university. I went back home crying. It's my dream. It's my personal dream. even the dream I try to achieve away from occupation. They followed me to the university. And Palestinians usually don't give up. This is something I am very proud of, that Palestinians don't give up. 

At all. So I went and I, , searched, it was Yahoo, how to make a revolution. I wanted to make a revolution to get my degree, not to end the occupation, to be very honest with you. Luckily, luckily, what came first to me, I was ready to do anything. Was Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Badshah Khan, the Pakistani Muslim who was helping I got a lot from him because you know We are a Muslim society and I wanted you know, how to talk to them in their language, to the students. I came back to the students after two weeks with an idea let's reopen the university using non violence resistance as a tactic. This is what we can do. After a few months of protesting and campaigning, we won. And I graduated as an activist and as an engineer. That was my turning point. So, from 2003 till now, I do both. Engineering and human rights activism. Sometimes I do more engineering to generate income and sometimes I do more human rights, depends on the situation. But I do a lot of human rights these days, especially in the last year. Because the situation is really, really hard and then I started establishing committees and organizations, training my people. And I did something very important, I'm very proud of, that I invented the idea of giving out cameras to the Palestinian families. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes. Yes. 

Yes the "shooting back" 

camera project. 

Issa Amro: Yes. It was even before shooting back. Later we called it shooting back, but that was one of the best ideas, which exposed the The Israeli occupation and told the truth about the situation on the ground. That was really amazing. And to be very honest, the first camera I gave out, I had to spend days to convince the families to take it. 

They refused. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Wow. 

Issa Amro: Because they will become a target and they Palestinian 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: scary 

Issa Amro: families. Yes. Yeah. They will become a target for the army and the settlers and the Palestinian families thought that it's useless. But after they used it, , it became a culture now, everybody documents now, the people, , if you see now, the people, , sacrifice their life to document. 

They put themselves in danger to document, , because, it's about the truth. The Israelis are professional liars and you need an evidence. You need the most trustful witness with you, which is the video camera to tell the international community about what's going on. Now it's about narrative. 

Narrative needs evidence. Our evidence is the camera. Our evidence is documentation. And we are doing very well nowadays with documentation and the world is changing about what's going on the ground. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes it is. 

Issa Amro: Palestinians, they come crying to me, telling me a story. 

I tell them, don't tell me the story. Show me, show me what happened to you. Show me, because I believe that because I live in the same situation, without them telling me, I believe them, but it's about. evidence, very strong record, which the Israeli propaganda can't manipulate. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so powerful, Isa, that you were able to bring this type of truth telling to people who are already traumatized, so oppressed, uh, collective punishment is the norm. So they could lose everything in a moment and there's nobody to defend them. And showing the truth in that way has become. 

The only really defense for Palestinians, whether you're in the West Bank or Gaza or even within Israel, and it's so remarkable that you as a person took your own suffering from what happened to you in your engineering degree. I'm going to just read out a sentence here that describes what you guys did. 

 Actions of nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience for half a year. These actions included protests and demonstrations, moving into classrooms, sit ins, and having lessons in the presence of Israeli soldiers. That kind of resistance was more successful than any kind of violent resistance where you were able to open up your university and finish your degree and then inspire other Palestinians to start doing the same thing. Here we are today, where the world is truly starting to wake up and mass demonstrations are happening all over the world for Palestine in volumes we've never seen here in America and Europe and all over the world, even in Japan. Your work has allowed us to be empowered to show people what is truly happening in Palestine. 

 You guys are still fighting for your rights , in Hebron. For example, the Youth Against Settlements Movement is now leading a campaign to open Shuhada Street, which is one of Hebron's main streets. In 2007, the Youth Against Settlements organization started to train young Palestinians or educate them about non-violent resistance. 

 You have also been terrorized in Youth Against Settlements, for example, in 2013 , soldiers came into the media center and fired at you and many other activists. Would you tell us more about Youth Against Settlements and the campaign on Shuhada Street? 

 

Issa Amro: I volunteered with many Palestinian organizations, international organizations, Palestinian Israeli organizations to end the occupation, till I, am convinced that we need Palestinian led non violence group, so we established youth against settlements and the main idea was to make the Israeli occupation and the Israeli settlements costly for the occupiers and for the Israeli supporters of settlements and target settlements because we wanted to tell the international community and our people that all the settlements in the occupied territories, according to Geneva convention, article 49, it's illegal and it's a war crime. 

So we had the reference of the international law, especially Geneva convention, article 49. So we established youth against settlements and we really managed to have a huge influence on the people to reach the point to have thousands in our protest in Hebron and all over the world . That people are protesting, campaigning, and we chose the day of the massacre, the anniversary of the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre, the 25th of February as the global solidarity day with Hebron and, uh, you know,, we'd open Shuhada street. It's our main street as Times Square in New York. it used to be super busy, all the brands, all the beautiful shops, the beautiful markets, the historical area, the touristic area. So the occupation closed it because of the presence of the Israeli settlers and we wanted to use it as a symbol of the occupation. Because Hebron is a microcosm of the Israeli occupation because it's segregated, separated, checkpoints, , soldiers, settlers, , and we wanted to reopen the closed shops, the closed market. To reopen the closed Palestinian apartments. We have around 1, 000 Palestinian houses closed because of the closure policy. 

Around 1, 800 Palestinian shops closed because of the closure policy. In this small area, we have 22 checkpoints. More than 100 movement barriers. They changed the names of the Palestinian streets from Palestinian Arabic names to Israeli Hebrew names. They are removing our identity in our lifetime. 

Imagine and they don't feel shy, they're changing my street, where I was born from Bab El Khan. They can't claim it. You know, The Ottomans and the Mamlukis built the old city of Hebron. 

It's called Bab el Khan. They changed the name to Emek Hevron, Hebron Valley. In my lifetime, they took the Arabic sign and they put a Hebrew sign as if it's their own city, it's their own neighborhoods. It's all over. We started campaigning, protesting, and not to stay only victims, to be proactive and to do actions to make it costly on the ground and on the diplomatic level and the human rights level and even in increasing awareness all over the world and among Jews, usually. So we started bringing Jewish groups to educate them about apartheid, about occupation. We were the first to use the term apartheid, and talk about it and talk about the inequality. Because in Hebron, we are living in the same area with the settlers. I am under the Israeli military law. 

It means I'm guilty until I'm proven innocent. And Israeli settlers are under the Israeli civilian law. Two sets of law in the same area for different people. So I was arrested many, many, many times after being beaten by the Israeli settlers. Why? Because double standards. It's two sets of law. I am under the military law and they are under the Israeli civilian law. 

In the same time, something very important to the audience, nonviolence resistance, according to the Israeli military law, is illegal. It's not allowed. Not as in the US, you are proud of your nonviolence activism. I'm proud, but it's illegal according to the Israeli military system. So I was arrested, indicted, 

convicted in the military court based on my pure non violence resistance. They were not able to say that I incited to violence. It was about me protesting, campaigning, sit ins. That was my indictment. That was my charges in the military court and they didn't feel shy to indict me for my non violence activism. 

I was convicted in four charges out of 18. I was first convicted on six, then reduced to four. Two of them, 2013, I was marching with Obama and Martin Luther King masks and songs from the anti apartheid movement, in South Africa and the civil rights movement in the United States. That two charges convicted. 

I am convicted and I had to pay money as a fine and spend jail time even though I was in jail before. Convicted me because I was in a mask of Martin Luther King and my friends were wearing mask of Obama when Obama came to Palestine and Israel 2013. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: That is so crazy.  You got arrested 20 times in 2013. Even the UN Human Rights Council expressed deep concern for your well being and safety because you were regularly being harassed by soldiers and settlers coming to your own house and occupying the land around your house, not letting you move around and you were so tortured by soldiers that you ended up in the hospital after that, and in 2016, you were indicted 18 charges, just like you told us. In 2023 when you were showing Lawrence Wright around, you were doing an interview, you were also harassed on camera , that went viral by an Israeli soldier and it really looked violent. This is a normal experience for you. How come you're still able to be here and talk to us? How come none of that resulted in you remaining indefinitely, let's say, in jail or something worse? 

Issa Amro: I'm alive because of the cameras. I'm not injured severely because of the cameras because I document all the time either , with a camera or with a voice. 

And, , if not me, I asked the families to document me walking in the street. So I have my protection strategy and I'm lucky for being not killed until now by the fascists and soldiers, but they're trying, they're doing their best to get rid of me. And I'm doing my best to continue my non violence struggle and my non violence activism because it's my duty. 

I don't have any other choice. It's either I use violence or give up and accept to be slave in my own country or to use non violence resistance. I chose non violence resistance to make the Israeli occupation costly. It's costly on me, I know, but I'm very proud of my non violence activism and , we are achieving a lot, , as a group, as a community, as Palestinians inside Palestine and Palestinians outside Palestine. 

And our Arab colleagues, our friends, our brothers and sisters all over the world, many Jews all over the world, they are doing amazing work to support us and help us. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes. 

Issa Amro: We have a movement. We have a nonviolent global movement. targeting the occupation now and they are doing their best to stop me and stop other palestinians. We have many other palestinians they do the same as I do. I'm lucky because I speak english and i'm well connected but many other palestinians are not. But they do nonviolence. Each farmer is a human rights defender and a nonviolence activist. Each palestinian farmer, each palestinian woman living in area C is a non-violence activist nonviolence Today, when I was trying to find a good internet to talk to you, I passed a checkpoint to stay in my parents house because I have good internet there. 

so the settlers can't stop it whenever they want. The soldiers beat up a Palestinian man. 

They beat him up till he fainted. his three sisters, And mother did amazing work to defend him. They are defenders. And they jumped on him. They took him from the soldiers. They shout. They yell. They make it costly. They made it costly for the Israeli soldiers to beat up their son. Each family in H2 in Hebron, they are defenders. 

Our existence is resistance, but we see our active existence because we're actively staying, remaining, exposing, talking about apartheid, talking about occupation, trying to make it costly for the occupiers, expose them, embarrass them, because , they attack you, kill you, and they justify killing of the children and killing women. 

They don't mind. So we need to expose them and we don't have any other choice. We are targeted and they want to take our land. What is left? And they say, Oh, they're complaining why I'm pro Palestinian activists say from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free , the majority of the Israelis believe that Israel is from the river to the sea and this is what they are doing on the ground. They're creating facts in the ground to displace the Palestinians from their homes. From their land to annex West Bank to Israel. So Israel will be from the river to the sea one apartheid state. This is the reality on the ground.  B'Tselem It's the biggest Israeli human rights organization. Described Israel as an apartheid state from the river to the sea human rights watch, Amnesty international described Israel as an apartheid state from the river to the sea. Many Jewish scholars many Jewish activists, many Jewish authors, writers, they described Israel as an apartheid state from the river to the sea. 

So what's wrong that we want freedom all together, Jews and Palestinians, Israelis together to live in one state with equal rights? What is the problem with that? To call for it? 

It's either two state solution, 

yeah, it's either two state solution according to the international law or one state solution with equal rights for everybody? 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Yes, absolutely, yes. Yes, and that would be the most, in my opinion, that would be the most just and fair solution, is equal rights for everybody on that land. 

It corrects on some level the historical injustice, the moral flaw that led to all of this. When you spoke about that assault that happened, you didn't blame the soldier. You blamed the normalization of anti Palestinian hatred within the Israeli military and Benjamin Netanyahu for pulling verbal triggers of incitement and denying freedom for Palestinians with his politics and that is really what's stopping any kind of solutions, any kind of freedom and equality. I love that you clarified for our audience that from the river to the sea for a Palestinian, you are somebody on the ground in the West Bank who's been doing profound work. And to you from the river to the sea means equal rights for all and sharing of the land, not getting rid of or genociding another population, which here in America, it's almost becoming illegal to say free Palestine from the river to the sea, because that's the understanding which is so wrong, and it minimizes the apartheid reality that you're living. 

 Thank you for explaining all of that to us. You've obviously been harassed by the Israeli authorities, and I know you've also been arrested by the Palestinian Authority, and it seems like, also the Palestinian Authority has not been your best ally. In one violation, they said that you violated the new electronic crimes law, and really what you were doing was denouncing on Facebook the arrest of a journalist that was calling the resignation of a PA head, which is Freedom of expression, especially in journalism. 

and that charge was widely condemned by human rights groups and international organizations. It even led you to meet Bernie Sanders. And there was a letter that was signed by three U. S. senators and 32 congressmen, as well as advocacy from Amnesty International so that those charges would be dropped. 

Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? 

Issa Amro: Palestinian authority can't be described as Palestinian authority, because they don't have any authority. It's fake. Israel is the only authority from the river to the sea. And the Palestinian authority, unfortunately, with all respect to many good leaders in the Palestinian leadership, okay, they They became a sub contractor of the Israeli occupation. and there is no democracy, dictatorship, which we don't want as Palestinians. We don't want to end occupation to be trapped with corrupt, , dictatorship. So I really try to make it costly for the corrupt Palestinian leaders, who are supported by the Israeli leaders and supported by the American administration. 

 We complain all the time. I met many important figures all over the world and complain all the time that don't blind support the occupation. And I'm sure that Israel can't maintain the occupation for that long without the blind support from the international community and especially from the United States. 

And don't blind support the Palestinian authority. We need a real authority with democracy and with human rights and with zero corruption. It's our right as Palestinians living under occupation. I don't want two occupation, Palestinian Authority and then the Israeli occupiers. So this is why I was arrested, this is why I am targeted by the Palestinian Authority. 

But in the same time, it's about the system, it's not about individuals. Because you will find very good Palestinian leaders, unfortunately until now they believe in the PA. But as we see now, they are powerless. They are really disabled. Mahmoud Abbas is too old to lead, too old to give us the minimum feeling of dignity, and his leadership is expired. 

This is the truth and we want democracy to choose another leader and I will vote for a secular leader. I will not choose a religious leader we should be free to choose new leaders. But unfortunately, Israeli leadership and many countries who have very strong influence on the Palestinian Authority and in Palestine and Israel. They don't want a new election. 2021, we were almost there to change our leadership. It was cancelled because of pressure from the Israeli security forces the occupation forces and from the American administration. 

They don't want new leadership. They don't want young leadership. They want us to keep the old Leadership, there are many good ones, but they don't have influence. We have one show man, and he's really misleading us.  What I told Blink in 2021. I told him, let's reform PLO and bring Hamas in PLO with a presidential waiver. Then PLO will represent all the Palestinians with election, and then we will have a political solution with Israel. 

They close their ears. They don't want to listen. Now, the only solution is that. Everybody is talking about bringing Hamas to the PLO, have a political solution, and political solution is the only solution. And security measures of Israel failed. October 7th showed that security can't be maintained with walls. 

Can't be maintained with, fake high tech technology and all of that. It's only can be maintained by mutual security for everybody from the river to the sea and with full equality and with peace and with full recognition of each other as human being first. Regardless of our religions, diversity is an added value for us. 

All of us. We, the Jews, the Israelis and Palestinians can build an amazing state. With equality and with justice and whenever I meet Jews and I meet Israeli peace activists, I say it loud, we can reduce anti semitism in the world if we have real good peace here. We can reduce it. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Thank you for saying that. 

Issa Amro: Not completely, but we can reduce it because we the Palestinians, we don't, our cause is moral cause. With values, with principles, we don't accept any antisemites to be part of our struggle, but we don't want them to politicize antisemitism to include criticizing the occupation, criticizing the human rights violations, criticizing Israel as antisemitism. 

It's not true. They are really making, they are making this term losing its value. It's the Israeli right wing government, Israeli fascist government. government who has Islamophobia, even they have human being values phobia. They don't consider human being as equal human being with them. They feel the supremacy and they not only feel it, they practice it. 

When I was almost killed in October 7th, when I was tortured, it was for me a shock from how they treated me when they kidnapped me, , when I was going to my house. In the morning of October 7th, 10 hours of torture from the Israeli soldiers and Israeli settlers in an army uniform. 

No one of them showed me mercy. I was tortured even sexually assaulted by the Israeli soldiers, 10 hours continuously without showing me any mercy. I didn't feel that they were sad about the Israeli civilians who were killed. they had music, they were listening to music when they were torturing me. This has happened to me and they almost killed me on October 7th. Then I was shocked, you know, I was dismissed from the house for 16 days. I was attacked many, many times, threatened, and, intimidated. They raided my house. They raided the community. I was living under curfew since October 7th and a lot of restrictions. 

Now I don't use the normal road to go to my house. I use, maybe three times more, distance to reach my house, passing the checkpoint, carry my stuff in my holder. It's crazy. Not only me, the whole society since October 7th. In spite that we live in a restricted area they added more restriction on the old restrictions. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: I'm lost for words. Honestly, I'm so sorry that you, that is your reality. I'm so sorry that on top of, all the awfulness that we're seeing happen really since 1947 and now since October 7, that this is also your reality. Torture. restriction of movement. I know that there's 500 checkpoints in the West Bank and different roads and all these settlements separate all your communities in a way where you can't even access each other because there's walls around these settlements and then there's the checkpoints that stop you from moving around and , it's really so awful that instead of you achieving justice, for what happened to you on October 7, and every time this has happened to you before, it's only resulted in more complication for you and more restriction , and no, justice against the people that did all of this to you, which is so awful. It's indicative, as you said, of all the fascism in the government and this normalized racism. People in Israel unfortunately don't understand how much racism, extremism, you said supremacy, all of that is normalized in society. And it's covered up by, look, Israel did this and Israel is contributing to that. We tell people to leave before we bomb their houses. 

It's all covered up with this narrative, of, Israel is the victim in all of this and really the victims in all of this are the palestinians And also I would say the israeli peace activists working with you to try and make something happen, i've seen a lot of israeli activists get beaten up also by settlers get terrorized in their own homes And so this government this extremist fascist government is terrorizing anyone that is calling for peace, even its own people. 

You touched on, the future, what does future look like? And I love that you said that the safety of all, including Jewish people, lies in the equality and freedom of all in that land. It can even reduce anti Semitism. Of course, it will reduce Islamophobia. It will reduce all forms of hate to have peace because that's what peace does. 

 What does peace look like for you? What steps can be taken to build that future, especially in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem? I know you said we can fold in Hamas , and you said there's a lot of Jewish participation. So can you talk a little bit more about how can we fold in Hamas when Hamas is considered now a terrorist organization by so many and people look at Hamas and what they did on October 7 and all they see is that. 

They don't see anything else that led to that. And obviously there are people within Hamas that have documented acts that, very clearly are anti Semitic, very clearly show hate towards Jews and so there is a concern in the world about how do we fold in Hamas and in a diplomatic way and make them part of the solution rather than what's happening right now. 

And so I would love for you to comment on that and then talk about Jewish participation in all of this. 

 

Issa Amro: I don't believe in religious parties, so I'm not Hamas and I'm against targeting civilians. It's a red line for me to target civilians, Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians. 

So they say, how we can make peace with Hamas who killed 1, 200 Israelis, but how we can make peace with the Israeli army who killed 20, 000 Palestinians? Why you don't consider the Israeli soldiers who are bombing children and women at first? They are war criminals. And when peace is there, it's not a switch, it's not peace, no, it takes time. 

It's 75 years of suffering, and Nakba, and violence, it will not end in one year. But at least to start solving, not to continue building more and more settlements, not to continue demolishing Palestinian houses, not to continue creating facts in the ground. It's war in Gaza and Israeli finance minister is giving money through the Israeli Knesset, a big amount of budget to build more settlements in the West Bank. 

Convince me that Israel is defending itself by building more settlements in the West Bank. It's not. Israel is not defending itself. It's defending its occupation, defending its apartheid, defending its illegal settlements and its supremacy. So peace is possible and peace usually it's between the enemies, not between friends. 

If we are friends, we don't need to make peace. We are already in peace. So we all together, the majority of the Palestinians, they accept peace, they want peace, they are seeking peace, and they are the most tolerant people on earth reacting in this way to the Israeli oppression. 

We, the Palestinians, we have great hearts and we don't hate the Jews. We love the Jews. I can't be a good Muslim if I don't believe in Judaism. I can't deny Judaism. I can't. In my religion, I can't deny Christianity as well. I should respect Judaism. I should respect even my Jewish neighbors. 

I should respect my Christian neighbor. This is the diversity of Islam. This is how you understand Islam if you want to really live in a diversity. So peace is possible. I give you one example. Itamar Ben Gvir was not allowed to be in the Israeli army because he's so dangerous, violent person. 

But now he's the national security minister. How come the international community and the Israelis accepted this person who was not allowed to be in the Israeli army in the nineties. Now he's the Israeli National Security Minister, something else, Shamir, the ex Israeli Prime Minister, exploded King David Hotel and killed many people. 

And he became the prime minister of Israel after that. Many Israeli leaders, they were part of the Haganahs, part of the Irtzos, part of the Jewish militias, before 1948 and after 1948, and they became ministers and they became peacemakers. Rabin killed many, many Palestinians. Peres was responsible about, bombing a shelter in Lebanon. 

 If we keep saying no peace with this group, no peace with this person, no peace with that. No, it's easy solution. If we have the will all together, we the Palestinians, we are there. It's about the occupiers. It's about the oppressors. It's not about the oppressed. 

Nobody judge the oppressed. Could we judge the black people in the 50s in the United States and judge their intentions? Okay, maybe the white people will say, Look, the black people are planning to have the black president. We should not give them equality. This is what is happening in Israel. That the Israelis say, Look, the Palestinians are asking for equality with us. 

Yes, we want equality. So when we put high pressure, On Israel to make peace, concrete actions. It's the way to have peace either with one state or two state solution. Let's choose one of them in spite that the reality on the ground, it's one state reality, one state solution, reality. 

And what's wrong that we all live in peace with full equality. If Hamas wants peace, accepts peace, what's wrong? This is what we want. And when I talked to Blinken and I told him, let's bring Hamas to PLO, I know what I'm talking about. They will be political party and Palestinians will choose according to who serves them more. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: So issa, would that mean that they would change their charter again? So in their last charter in 2017, it says that they would accept a 10 year truce. Not a peace. 

And it says that their war continues with the Zionist regime and that their end goal is to eliminate the Zionist regime. And then the leader went back on TV and said we will keep doing what we did on October 7th. So what is your interpretation. 

Issa Amro: The majority of the Palestinian people, they want peace. If we have a referendum, with equal rights, with two states, according to the international law, refugees come back. East Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine, full autonomy and authority of Palestinians, that's acceptable with one state solution. 

It's acceptable for the majority. It will not be 100 percent Hani 80 percent is great of the Palestinians. But who's refusing the solution and the peace? The majority of Israeli leadership now, even Lapid said, what are you talking about to the American administration, two state solution? 

So what is the solution, Lapid? To keep seizing Gaza? To keep the occupation on the Palestinians, to keep stealing the Palestinian land and you get support from the international community you are very weak alone, but with the support of the international community, you act as heroes. And then you tell the international community no to give Palestinians full equality and full equal rights. Hamas is not a problem. The problem is the occupation. So if we remove Hamas now, okay, remove Hamas, throw all of them to the sea. Will Palestinians have equal rights? Will Palestinian have a just peace? Hamas is a new party, born in 1988, almost. 

So what's going on? What What was happening before 1987? Hamas didn't exist in 1967. Hamas didn't exist in 1948. So Hamas is not the problem. In spite of that, I will not vote for a religious party, me, Issa, okay? But that is my own, right to choose whom I want. With full freedom. I'm talking about the majority of normal Palestinians, the mainstream. The majority of Palestinians don't believe in parties anymore. They don't believe in Fatah, they don't believe in Hamas Before October 7th, they were infamous, both of them, in West Bank and Gaza. 

But it's about rights. It's about people suffering under the occupation, under apartheid, under supremacy. This is mainly what's going on. If the Israelis say, okay, we'll freeze the settlements, we'll stop building settlements, we will dismantle all the checkpoints in the West Bank, it's gradually, in a few years, we will have a common ground for peace. 

But since the establishment of the new government in Israel. Huwara Pogrom, Turmusaya Pogrom, South Mount Hebron Pogroms. Every week we have a, we had a Pogrom in the West Bank in the last year. Nobody's talking about that. Nobody's talking how the Israeli soldiers in East Jerusalem treated the Palestinian women and the children. 

The people don't know that I'm not allowed to have a permit to go to pray in Al Aqsa Mosque. I'm not allowed. Why? Because I'm a human rights defender. They don't know that to go to my house, I pass two checkpoints. With soldiers who are 18, 19, 20 years old, They are doing whatever they want according to their political attitude. 

They they give me hard time according to their political attitude without any accountability. So what I told Clinton in 2021, I was very honest with him, without concrete actions to punish Israel for its occupation, for its apartheid, for its illegal settlements, they will continue. Why? Why to end the occupation if they make profit of the occupation? 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. The first step towards peace is dismantling the occupation. That has to be the first step that cannot continue in any way, shape or form. And everything from there can be a domino effect over several years. All kinds of solutions can be proposed related to the settlements related to the discriminatory laws, the apartheid laws. 

But first of all, occupation has to be dismantled. Palestinians have to be able to make their own decisions. And to be able to voice whatever they want to voice about how they want to live and who they want to lead them and that's where we need to begin. So thank you so much for saying that and Issa everything you've been saying is blowing my mind. What do you think the international community can do for you? What would you ask of us? 

Issa Amro: To protect the Palestinian right to resist the occupation peacefully. We don't have very strong Palestinian non violence resistance because we are not protected. We are targeted and we don't have the capability to continue because you are under, I can't describe it, pressure, under very hard life, , your life become impossible if you are a peace activist , against the occupation. 

They target your food you will not be able to feed your family if you try to expose the occupation. So I want the international community, especially the American people, to act according to their principles according to their morals and be creative with non violence ideas how to make the Israeli occupation and apartheid costly. 

First, they should educate themselves more, understand the situation more, to enrich their knowledge because , it's not easy to fight their Israeli propaganda. Then to see how we can increase awareness among jewish people in the diaspora. This is something very important Figures who are supporting israel blindfully, Politicians, media should play a different role in the world especially in the united states to tell the truth to have more palestinian voices. 

 We should post palestinian voices more. We want american people to hear more palestinians I told Blinken. I don't want palestinian American relationship to be via CIA. I want it to be via the State Department. I want it to be via civil society in the United States. 

This is the relationship between Americans and Palestinians because we love the Americans. Me, my hero is Martin Luther King and many American figures are our heroes and Palestinians love Americans, but we hate American blind support to Israel. We hate it. So we want an American relationship and even international good relationship with the Palestinians and understand the Palestinians reality on the ground and see us as a human being and be creative. 

 Something very important, be creative and act according to your expertise. If you are a doctor, you can support Palestinian doctors, have partnership with Palestinian hospitals. If you are an engineer, you can, build and if you are a journalist, if you are an influencer, you can do a lot to help Palestinians and Israelis to live in peace with full equality and with justice and freedom. 

This is how we can have the will and be optimistic and unity is very important, , fragmentation and disagreement with people, me and you now, maybe disagree in 20, 30, 40 percent, it's okay to have differences. Diverse societies are much, much stronger than one side society. 

This is how we have different ideas. This is how human beings are born. Brothers and sisters don't have the same ideas these days. So let's respect each other as a human being and act according to that with creative ideas to make the change. Silence means you are biased with the oppressor. So you choose what you want to be a defender, an offender and supporting the occupation, even if you are silent and I chose to be a defender. I hope that all the listeners choose to become defenders and change the reality in the United States, all over the world, and Palestine and Israel. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: I hope so. That advice is so profound, actionable, each of us, wherever we are, whatever we're doing, we can contribute in some way. We can talk about it. We can advocate for nonviolent resistance. We can follow in your footsteps Issa you showed us how to resist and advocate for your freedom by all the acts that you did. 

It's really no surprise now after hearing all of this, that the UN named you human rights defender, and you are inspiring us to also be human rights defenders. So thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. I know that you are currently mourning People that are close to you. You've lost people. 

You yourself are not in a good space at all emotionally. You still came on and you talked to us and you said so many truths and even controversial things for you to say where you are and to share with us all the difficulties that you're going through so that you can inspire us to do more for Palestine and for freedom of the Palestinians. 

 Thank you so much for being with me here today. 

Issa Amro: Thanks to you for what you do also. 

Dr. Hani Chaabo: Thank you. 

I'm going to end our time together with a little prayer. 

 May all beings everywhere thrive in peace and dignity and share in all our freedoms. 

And may we see true peace in the Middle East for all in our lifetime.