SuperHumanizer Podcast

Christ In The Rubble: Incarnating Co-Resistance

• SuperHumanizer Podcast • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Join Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, a Palestinian Christian pastor from Bethlehem, as he shares his journey from the birthplace of Jesus Christ to global human rights advocacy. Exploring dehumanization by Western Christians, challenges Christian Zionism, and explains his viral "Christ in the Rubble" concept. Through personal stories and theological insights, he offers a vision of faith that stands with the oppressed rather than empires, reframing what it means to follow Jesus under occupation.

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"Christ in the Rubble": Dr. Munther Isaac's Theological Challenge to Christian Zionism

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Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Superhumanizer. I'm your host, Katie Bogen, joined, as always, by Dr. Hani Chaabo, and today we're honored to share space with an extraordinary guest, Reverend and Dr. Munther Isaac. Reverend Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor theologian and a global advocate for justice and peace in the Holy Land. He pastors the evangelical Lutheran Christmas church in Bethlehem serves as academic Dean at Bethlehem Bible college, where he's shaping the future of theological education in Palestine. Additionally, he directs the renowned Christ at the Checkpoint Conferences, which is a platform amplifying Palestinian Christian voices on the Israeli Palestinian conflict to an international audience. His academic path is as profound as his ministry. After earning a degree in civil engineering from Birzeit University in Palestine, he heeded the call to ministry, completing a master's in religion and biblical studies in Philadelphia and a PhD from the Oxford Center , where his research is centered on a biblical theology of the promised land. Isaac is a prolific writer whose works include Christ in the Rubble, Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza a poignant spiritual reflection on suffering and hope during the ongoing atrocities. His recent sermon, Christ in the Rubble, went viral worldwide, capturing the hearts and minds of all for its profound imagery of Christ's presence among the oppressed and the suffering. The incarnation of Jesus as a symbol of solidarity with those living under violence and despair resonates deeply with audiences across faiths and over borders. Growing up in the Shepherds field to becoming a global advocate for justice, Reverend Isaac, it's a privilege to have you here with us today and thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm honored. Thank you. Thank you, Reverend. It's really such a pleasure to share this space with you, especially after watching all the work you've been doing online and how you've touched our hearts and souls. And I know we're going to get into some really tragic and serious stuff today. But before we do that, we like to start on a positive note. So we play a game called What Brings You Joy with our guests. Would you play it with us? Let's try. Of course. Reverend Dr. Munther Isaac, Habibi, what brings you joy? What brings me joy? It's important to continue. Find sources of joy. And I think it's a basic answer. I'm sure it's boring answer, but it's family. Family brings me joy. I have a wonderful wife and two beautiful kids. I guess just spending time with them brings me joy. So I guess now, Katie, what brings you joy? I would say something bringing me joy in this moment is interfaith solidarity. We have someone on the call with a Muslim background, someone with a Christian background and someone with a Jewish background. The collective perception of what is happening here and understanding each other's faith perspectives as relevant to conversations about the liberation of Palestine and Gaza. Hani, what brings you joy? That your answer brought me joy. Knowing that this moment, what we're doing right now, is exactly why Superhumanizer was born. And of course, being here with you, Dr. Munther. I'm a little shocked that you're even with us on the show, because watching you and what you've been doing and how profound it is, like, how do you even have the time to come on a podcast like this and talk to us? So that really brings me joy today. Thank you for joining us. Bring it back to you. What brings you joy, Dr. Munther. I must admit I love spending time with young people in Palestine. I love my youth group I love spending time with them and listening to their hopes and dreams and allowing them to make me feel younger. I think that, that gives me joy. We'll go out again. Katie, your turn. what brings you joy. I think something that consistently brings me joy is butter. I'm currently in Paris working on a book and eating a lot of French food. And I keep thinking about the children of Palestine and the families in Gaza, one day getting to eat meals rich with butter and ghee and any of the fats and salts that, that they can access. It just, it's such a simple pleasure and something that absolutely everyone deserves. Hani, what brings you joy? Thank you for saying that. Inshallah. I hope we see that happen soon. I just took a new job here and that's bringing me a lot of joy because it's the peak of my career. I just accepted a job as a chief clinical and wellness officer at a health center. So, uh, it, I'm very young to be accepting a job like that. So I'm very nervous. But I'm just very grateful that I've been invited into a space like that and I can do more well being work with clinicians because I know that translates to patients and that brings me a lot of joy to be able to be an activist in the pro Palestine and pro peace space, but also to be an activist for clinicians and well being for patients. One last one, Dr. Munther, what brings you joy? Watching sports, a time which I just sat down and. Think of nothing but try to enjoy the competition and my team. But I must also say that I feel more fulfilled when I'm preaching, I just love to preach. To know that my words help people that God can use my words to inspire and help people. One final time, Katie. What brings you joy? So something that's been bringing me joy recently, actually You were the inspiration for this response today, Dr Isaac, because I was thinking about the forms of masculinity that we get to see in culture and media and this gentle, compassionate, emotion oriented, faith oriented masculinity. And I've been watching the show Ted Lasso, which ties into your last. joy. It's about an athletic coach who has just the most sweet open hearted form of masculinity. I think it's a really great model for young men and boys. And I know the work you do is providing a similar model. So Ted Lasso has been bringing me joy recently and Hani, my love, your last joy. What brings you joy? Wow. I'm going to bounce off of both of you and say that spirituality brings me joy. Faith brings me joy. It really allows me to anchor to the best parts of myself within my masculinity and all parts of myself. And being able to anchor to that faith. even in the midst of a lot of tragedy and grief has allowed me to extract joy even within that grief. And I think there's just so much power in being able to use faith in that way. So thank you so much to both of you and those joys. That was really enjoyable for me to listen to. Yeah so you grew up in Bait Sahour, a town rich in history and near the Shepherd's Field, the place where the angels announced the birth of Jesus to shepherds, symbolizing peace and the good news of salvation in the Christian tradition. We're really curious about your personal journey. How did growing up in such a spiritually significant place while going through the harsh realities of Israeli occupation shape your worldview and your understanding of peace. It's interesting because usually for Westerners, when they understand or know that I was born in Bethlehem and grew up in the shepherds field, many imagine as if, we just spent our time going to these holy sites and praying and feeling blessed and fortunate that we are born in such a context. But honestly it was just a normal thing, playing football in the neighborhood. But then when when I was very young, the 1st intifada took place that shaped all of us's life. The 1st Intifada in Beit Sahour meant several things. First, there's the usual demonstrations. We watch the young kids throw rocks at the soldiers run away between homes from the soldiers, sometimes hiding in our house. Sometimes, we hide them then curfews, then, shooting. We go down on the floor when there is shooting around the house. That was the scary part of it. Um, soldiers stopping us to clean the roads from the stones or to clean the graffiti on walls. All of this was part of the upbringing. These memories of encounters with the soldiers, but especially the curfews where, you were not allowed to leave the house and young men were especially afraid to leave or older men. Which means that, you send the kids, the Children to get food from the neighbors or to try to sneak in things. And so I used to do that sometimes where, it's a curfew and I would go places from one house to the other. Because if the soldiers see us in the streets, so all of that, from an early age shaped the whole way. You understand reality. You understand it through the lens of what's happening in Palestine. The fact of a military occupation that controls every aspect off of our lives, an occupation that defined the way we lived. And that occupation it's still part of our life. It takes different shapes. Sadly and tragically, it's getting harsher. And so that's what defined us more than, the Holy Land and the holy sites or now I think a lot about these issues. When you think of the meaning of life, of meaning of the Christian presence that my gosh, we're continuing the 2000 years presence of Christianity here of faithful people. And, even when I think that, In the Christian tradition, the angel spoke about peace and now my whole ministry is shaped by calling for peace. You think of this issue of the bigger picture, you stand in awe on this legacy and long tradition of our forefathers who lived here and endured, but really, as a child, it was just a, the rush you get from the events, the rapid events. And I could talk more and more about what the first intifada has meant to us. But even, you mentioned spirituality. I grew up a very devout child. I am one of those who read the Bible from cover to cover when I was 13, I think, or 14. I can't remember exactly, but I was always the, best Sunday school kid and memorized verses and so on. It was hard to try to make sense of the Bible back then. Honestly, it was hard reading the Old Testament. And I know it sounds strange to many that there's this kid in Palestine reading the Old Testament when he's 12 and 13. That was me and trying to understand why is God always with Israel or trying to, rationalize with my friends. You can throw rocks, but yeah, it's, I understand why, but violence is not good. Jesus was against violence, which is interesting. The fact that As a 13, 14 years old Palestinian Christian kid, I understood that Jesus was against violence, and I can't understand how any American Christian supports violence today. I just, it's beyond my understanding. Even as a kid, I understood that, I would even question, should we throw rocks at soldiers? I understand why we're doing it, but it's violence and Jesus is against violence. So this was also part of my upbringing, honestly, especially, my own family, this is something, I was pretty much more devout than most of the kids I played with or I went to school with. And I've always asked these questions about the Bible, trying to make sense of it, And I'm hearing that one of the things that you're speaking to as well as the separation between Expectation or perception and reality of like how the West might perceive Bethlehem or how people living outside of Palestine might perceive Bethlehem and then your lived experience as a child, the first intifada, the second intifada, watching resistance and having to grapple with, I'm reading in the Bible that violence is wrong and yet I'm seeing this urge. From my peers and understanding it and having compassion for it, because look at what we're suffering. No one external to this can understand the depth and quality of our suffering. And you write about this in your book, the other side of the wall, you describe the sort of chronic dehumanization you've experienced as a Palestinian Christian. Can you share a moment with us where you felt this with a lot of depth or a lot of salience? the dehumanization of Palestinians. Um, you get this and I'll be very honest and very transparent because there are times when you think. Once the Western world realizes I'm a Christian they will change their views. They won't deal with me like they deal with other Palestinians. And I was wrong. That's very wrong. To the extent that , growing up, especially, as a teenager, even as a theology student, you always feel the good intentions of most,, american Christians are kind to us. They speak polite, they say they want to support us. They're generous with their money. Once you push them on positions, that's when you realize that they actually think of you as less than the Israeli neighbor and then once you challenge their political, not necessarily theological, but political worldview, that's where not just you get the pushback, but that's when, the cover falls the mask falls. And in the book, the other side of the wall, I go through 1 story after the other. Those are the stories I experience. I didn't talk about. What my colleagues, what my friends went through, namely how we as Palestinian Christians were mistreated, constantly pushed, dehumanized, attacked by Western Christians for the mere fact that we are Palestinians. And one story that was very much an eye opening to me really was like. For the first time, I understand was a conference. I was invited to in Ireland. Interestingly, Northern Ireland. And there they have a very traditional Protestant community that traditionally is pro Israel yet they heard about something. I've said I was very young. I was in my early thirties. I think I wasn't well known the way I am now. I didn't write any books or. Somehow people began to, hear me speak about life in Palestine, that here's someone who calls for peace. And they say, why don't you come and share about the work of the Bible college? And talk about your vision for peace. And you said, of course. So I traveled to Northern Ireland. Then they warned me that there is very strong opposition to my presence and that they're expecting, maybe even demonstrations or people would challenge me publicly. It was a big conference. It was a conference on mission, by the way. And at first I was a bit intrigued because I thought, wow, I'm already famous. People know me. Is it something I said? Is it something I can. A miscommunication, is it? Was I misunderstood? And that's when the answer is what really opened my eyes. They said, oh, they don't know you. It's because you're a Palestinian. And that's when I began thinking, my goodness, this is a conference on mission. How God loves the whole world, and we need to go spread the gospel to all humanity and share about the love of God. But if it's a Palestinian speaking about it, we're the exception, it's as if God loves. Everyone with the exception of Palestinians, and it's because of, we challenge their political worldview. It's because, we don't fit with their worldview about how things should come together in Palestine. And that's again, when I began to realize that to the Western world, even Palestinian Christians and Arab Christians don't matter much. And you think of it throughout the recent history, at least the events that led to the exodus of Arab, Middle Eastern Christians, or even Palestinian Christians were not only events that were done by the West but also we spoke against them and we warned and we said, this is not helping us. And you wonder, do they take us seriously? Do they care about us? Think of the war on Syria and the mass exodus of Christians from Syria as a result of what happened, or the second war on Iraq and the mass exodus of Iraqi Christians. Think of the Nakba, 1948, the whole Christian world celebrated it. It's a big blow to the Christian presence in Palestine. Tens of thousands of Palestinian Christians became refugees. They still can't return. Those who are concerned about the Christian presence in Palestine will allow us to grant us the right of return and there won't be a problem. Believe me. But of course they claim they care for the Christian presence. But in reality, they don't and I remember this discussion because we've had it when Trump moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem evangelicals loved it. Many Christians loved it. The heads of the churches in Jerusalem were very clear that they're against it. The Christian organizations, the grassroots movements. We were all clear about this is wrong. You would think that American evangelicals who claim they support Christians and they support Christians who live in the Middle East and that they would talk to us, that they would care to listen to our opinion. They didn't. And when we challenged them on that, they tried to convince us that we're wrong. Because they know our reality better than us. And that's when it was confirmed to me. They don't care about us. Really, they don't care about us. They don't look at us as equals. We're not, to them. Anything that serves the interest of their empire is this is the priority not us. And this. Confirms to me that it's not a religious issue. It's a racist issue. It's racism is that It's colonialism. It's, when it comes to the United States in particular, it's the believe in American exceptionalism. And part of it is this today, a Christian tradition, the relationship between America and Israel as being a priority. And that to them times everything else, including how it impacts Palestinian Christians or Arab Christians. It doesn't matter if Palestine is emptied of Christians as long as Israel is strong to them. I would say it even trumps Jesus and the faith itself, because like you said, Jesus is all about love. It's that simple. There's no simpler prophet in any religion than Jesus and his message about love and to prioritize that coloniality, and I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about that , but they've prioritized that over even the faith itself and the simple teaching of loving all, especially Christians, fellow Christians. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Sometimes when you listen to some of those talks you think they're talking about a different Jesus, honestly. Yeah. And you speak about this veneer giving way or this performance of like a faith oriented solidarity giving way, not even to, to apathy, which would be cruel or hurtful enough, but to a strict hierarchy, like revealing this exceptionalism, imperialism, hegemony that is right underneath the performance of faith by the Western world. On that line of thought, You've been a vocal critic of Christian Zionism, arguing that it misinterprets scripture to justify oppression and is a theology of supremacy and coloniality. You've said a little bit about that already, but I want to ask you specifically, what are the most harmful misconceptions spread by Christian Zionism? Christian Zionism distorts the image of God in humans and even who God is. There are multiple ways to think of it, but I think especially after the genocide in Gaza, we need to be very clear about our understanding and terminology and stop trying to Whitewash or even be balanced or diplomatic and try to say, let's look at things from both sides. Because let's look at Zionism for what it is. And I think this is the only way in which I can answer the question about Christian Zionism. In the past, I used to think, let's see what they say. God gave the land to the Jews. Does the Bible say that? The end times, maybe Jews will come to Palestine and believe in, does the Bible say that we should support the Jewish people? Does the Bible say that? That's one way of trying to understand Christian Zionism, answering. the presuppositions of Christian zionism. I've done this in my book, The Other Side of the Wall. The covenant with Abraham and so on. That's one way of doing it. And I think sometimes it's helpful to deconstruct what they say about how the Bible is, and I'm happy to discuss this. But I think What's happening today demands that we look more critically and honestly about Christian Zionism. Christian Zionism is Christians support Zionism. What is Zionism? I'm tired of people who try to present us with this nice, soft Zionism that doesn't match reality. Or even Zionism as a solution to the Jewish problem. Zionism is not Jews seeking refuge in Palestine from persecution. There's certainly that, but Zionism, in its essence, is the establishment of a Jewish homeland for the Jews in Palestine. That's how it started. The idea of establishing the Judenstadt, the Jewish state, in Palestine. The problem is that Palestine was not empty. So they want to establish a Jewish state or a state on someone else's land, which necessitates the ethnic cleansing of those people. So Zionism is not just colonialism, but settler colonialism, which entails, as I said, removing Palestinians. Now, did Zionists say that? They did, of course. Go and read their statements. Go and read history. Palestine is a beautiful bride, but it's taken. What does that imply? We need to get rid of the husband so that we can marry Palestine. Did the Zionist leader say explicitly, not implicitly, explicitly that ethnic cleansing is good so that we can survive? They did say that it's in their records so that's what the Nakba is. So the Nakba is not Jews came to Palestine as refugees they didn't get along with Arabs because Arabs are not hospitable and there was a fight and Arabs escape. That's not what the Nakba is It was a plan. To colonize Palestine, get rid off as many Palestinians as we can occupy more land that we can. And then since 1948, this has been the Zionist blueprint more land and try to push as many Palestinians. That's why Israel is so much against the right of return off of Palestinians. And then, over the years, Israel continued to deny the Palestinians the right of, not just return, but statehood, self determination. And establish what Palestinians have said for years is apartheid recently now everyone acknowledges is apartheid by everyone. International community, the human rights organizations, including numerous Israeli human rights organization. It's not like. You have to really look deep into hidden policies of Israel to conclude it's apartheid. It's in the, it's in the nation state law. I always tell people read the nation state law the agreement between the parties for the current Israeli government. The nation state law, the right for self determination is exclusive for the Jewish people only. That's constitutional discrimination, that's constitutional supremacy. There's so much evidence on what is the result of Christian Zionism and how has it actually played out from this supposedly glittery Jewish homeland dream. But we also know, and you being a man of faith, Faith and me growing up in a Muslim environment and Katie growing up in a Jewish environment where Zionism was almost like a religious belief. We know that people that are devout and that have strong faith, it's hard for them to see reality when their faith is the glasses that they're looking through. And these Christian Zionists. Their belief is Israel needs to be protected at all costs and you've written an article called who is Israel in the Bible? And I would love for you as a pastor as an expert a doctor a Christian with devout faith since you were a child. How would they, the people that are looking through these faith glasses, how would they reframe this understanding? How could they see the story of Israel that they believe in the Bible, to match what is actual Christianity and what is peace promoting, rather than what we're seeing their faith do, which is the apartheid and oppression that you talked about. Exactly we need to help people understand what they're saying. I don't think many Christians actually understand what they're saying it's not about disagreement in how we interpret the question of, for example, the identity of Israel in the Bible. Or the concept of chosenness in the Bible. Is it privilege? Is it exceptionalism? Or is it a responsibility? We can discuss these issues. And as I said, I've written a lot, but it's more it's much deeper than that, because we need to expose what Zionism is and then ask, can you actually biblically support the concept of ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid and now a genocide? Does the God we meet in Jesus actually Support. Is he a tribal, racist, violent God? That's the question we need to ask one of the things I keep telling now Christians who support, are you listening to yourself? Really, are you listening to yourself? Because one of the things they're telling us is, and here is the ridiculousness of this. And again, I'm a scholar in Bible. I'm more than happy to bore you with the discussion on how we interpret Genesis or or Romans. But before I'm happy to answer that. But before we do that, the irony is that they actually don't see what they're doing. Because it's usually the same people who lecture us on the separation of church and state and who lecture us on religious freedom, that you're free to believe whatever you want, and that the state should not interfere in your faith and so on. It's the same people who are imposing their religious beliefs on millions of Arabs and Palestinians. And it's the same people who insist that the international law doesn't matter. Human rights don't matter. Look at Huckabee. He has no occupation. He completely imposes his religious beliefs. And it's his own brand of religious beliefs. It's not as if this represents all Christians. No, he claims he's the true Christian. He claims he gets the right interpretation of the Bible. And then not only he wants to impose it on other Christians, he's imposing this on millions of Arabs and Muslims. And somehow we need to accept that this is Jewish land because 2000 BC, God gave it to Israel. So that's why I say, are I thought the international law matters. I thought, we can't impose our beliefs on others. So we need to really unpack Christian Zionism for what it is. It's religious bigotry. Then, if someone with sincerity wants to ask, but Reverend Munther, doesn't the Bible say, I'll say, yeah let's discuss this. Is Israel a community of faith or is it a DNA thing? Does God really treat Hani and Munther or, Katie based on our DNA? Is this how God judges people? I hope not. I hope God is not racist. Does God privilege Katie over Hani because Katie was born Jewish? Or Munther over Katie because Munther was born Christian? And, the result of all of this, And here is the tragedy is that a person, a Jew born in Brooklyn can immigrate to Palestine, have more rights than the Palestinian indigenous person who will be living there for generations upon generations. And here is the other ridiculousness of this is that the concept of who owns the land. When a Palestinian say this is my land, he's usually referring to land he or she owned and farmed and inherited generation upon generation upon generation when I say this is my land. This is the borders. This is where we grew up a Jew in Brooklyn can say this is my land because God gave it to me So it's totally different worldviews, totally different concepts. So we need to challenge that framework of thinking that you come with a sense of religious entitlement because of your faith or your ethnicity or even DNA. You're entitled to a piece of land, but the Palestinians who've been farming it for generations is not , they can just pack and leave. And if they challenge that they're terrorist anti semitic, I mean, it's a crazy world we live in Yes, it's good to discuss the Bible, but it's more important to help people understand what they are saying and then ask, one of the question I keep asking Christians. When I explain Zionism for what it is, I say, can you put the word Christian before that? Yeah. And for that matter, can you put the word Jewish before that? And that's why I'm so grateful, for example, for the simplicity and straightforward, for example, approach of a group like Jewish Voice for Peace who say Zionism, we at Jewish Voice for Peace stand for, I think they say equality, justice and human rights for all something like that. That's why we oppose Zionism, because it's antithetical to all of that. It's so basic. It's so clear. And this is the kind of moral clarity that we need today. Even beyond moral clarity, there's this reclamation and reversal of language that you've spoken about of reframing what is radical. This idea that people who oppose Zionism are the radicals is on its face. Absurd. If you look at Zionism for what it is so clearly a radical ethno nationalist, incredibly violent, racist political project. How is it that the people who have beliefs counter to that project or who resist that project or condemn the violence of that project are viewed as the radicals? It doesn't make any sense. In conjunction with this spiritual reframing of understanding what Zionism is and interrogating whether it can possibly be faith based, understanding what Zionism is as this violent political project and interrogating whether it's anything but radical. It's like the most radical interpretation of a text for the purpose of marginalization. And, by the way, those of us. Who oppose Zionism. Many of us, I would say, if not most, actually oppose Zionism, but also offer an alternative of sharing the land of equality of shared responsibilities, equal rights. And somehow this is radical. Uh, you know, this is this what I don't get. Yeah, it's absolute madness. When I think about how easy it is for us to say, no, we don't want the Taliban or no, we don't want ISIS or look at all the horrible stuff that's happening in Afghanistan. Woman can't even speak out loud. But then we see the exact same manifestation of extremism in Jewish Zionism to me is like the Jewish Taliban. And Anthony Loewenstein, who wrote the Palestine Laboratory, uses that term so liberally the first time I heard it, I felt, is this too extreme to say? And then as I watched all the horrible stuff that's coming out of Gaza and people watching people being bombed from platforms and celebrating with children and I thought this is exactly the Jewish Taliban. And then there's the Christian Taliban, which in many ways are the Christian evangelicals in this country who don't see anything wrong with what is happening over there because it furthers this faith based belief, quote, unquote, faith based belief that it's going to bring Jesus. So how is Jesus going to come from all of this destruction? If anything, if I think about this, we play this out and say, okay, Jesus is coming from this destruction. He's probably coming to tell us how horrible we're doing and how awful this is and how this is not Christianity or Judaism or Islam, none of those things at all. Yeah, not only that, in some expressions of Christian Zionism and actually it's not a small minority it's, many they believe that not only will all of this usher the second coming of Christ, but that when, before Christ returns, certain things might happen, not just that Jews must come to Palestine, but they will be persecuted. There will be a global war in which two thirds of the Jews will be massacred, and then the other third will convert to Christianity. It's the Christian Zionists who are actually pouring money to build the settlements to help the immigration of Jews to Palestine. So basically they will come to someone like Katie. Why don't you move to Palestine? You have a 30 chance percent that you will survive. And if you do, you will convert to Christianity. And then those are the ones who are pro Israel. This is the pro Israel camp. And I'm considered the radical for and I always say, imagine if I say, I predict the day in which two thirds of the Jews will be killed. It's gonna be worse than the Holocaust and this is something many pro Israel evangelical pastors have said publicly. Wow. they support Israel financially and politically, they are friends of Israel. Wow. the way, when Israeli rabbis were challenged about this, why do you partner? Why? Why are they our friends? They say we disagree about their conclusion. We love what they're doing for us now. We disagree about their motives or their conclusion. But they're our allies now. Really? Uh, And then again, we're the radicals. It's so deeply anti Semitic. Every time I hear about this, evangelical fantasy of inevitable Jewish death and the rest of us converting, I'm like, Man, you really don't like Jews, this has nothing to do with our liberation. This performance of support for Israel is so deeply selfish, so deeply self serving and it feels to me like a betrayal of other Jews to put their heads down and go along with it as if this is somehow going to be liberatory for us when the most liberated possible future. Imagining is, as you said before, shared land, whatever thing violates this radicalism that is equity, egalitarianism, a single state where people can peacefully coexist. And that's framed as radical. The rabbis of Israel betray me, my family and the rest of us, Zionist, critical Jews I would say from a Christian perspective, treating Jews as objects in our eschatology is so wrong. Relating to choose only as they fit in our perceived, understanding of the future or of prophecy or the end times is completely wrong. And whenever I challenge that, people are stuck in there because they expect that we Christians must have a theology of the Jewish people. And I say, why? Honestly allow the Jews to self define, allow them to Express their fate as they see and stop defining their fate or how they fit in our plans or so on, and at the same time as I said, people, so what's your theology of the Jewish people as maybe you read it in my book, the other side of the wall. I say, love your neighbor as yourself. Isn't that how we're supposed to treat one another? As as people of faith, I don't care if Jews will convert or come to Palestine, or that shouldn't be a factor in how we treat the neighbor yet. Somehow, in the Christian world, in the Christian mind, they have a way in which they treat all humans, but then they have a different way in which how they treat the Jewish people. There was a time when it was negative discrimination, anti Semitism. Now it's positive, exceptionalism, and I think both ways are harmful. I think both ways dehumanize Jews and just makes them objects in our own theology or worst eschatology. Yes. Wow. So well said. Thank you for saying that . I was reading your essay on your blog who is Israel in the Bible, and I loved the conclusion that you portrayed there, that even in the Israel of the Bible, it was a land for all and there were people that were not Jews and had no connection to Israel that were within the stories in the Bible seen as the people of Israel. And so I correlated to today's Israel, and it seems like the kingdom of Israel in the Bible wasn't even a supremacist, theological state that puts one group of people above the other. And I think that if there is a vision for Israel today, it should be a vision of a land for all, even if it's not called Israel at all. And that is really what we're all working for towards peace. And Speaking about what's happening right now is all this rubble and these families and children and generations. And I look at what's happening in the Pacific Palisades today in LA where a colleague of mine lost her home and I'm looking at the footage and I'm seeing that the rubble looks exactly like Gaza today. Unfortunately, one was a freak wildfire and one was a man made Disaster of atomic level bombs on a defenseless nation and in Christ and the rubble, you write, if Christ were to be born today, he would be born under the rubble in Gaza. This image born out of unimaginable suffering that you witnessed. It's resonated with so many people. It's how we also found you, Dr. Munther. Can you unpack the significance of this statement and particularly how it connects to your understanding of the incarnation? All of this came into being last year. this concept of Christ in the rubble. And the origin of it is very pastoral. Like all Palestinians, especially at the beginning of the war, we were glued to the screens. We watched the execution of Palestinians life on earth. It was hard. The images we've seen and we continue to see from Gaza are brutal. There's no way to describe it. And you don't have to wait to see the horrors of this genocide. Children pulled from under the rubble body parts people burning, we, we see all of this and immediately people ask the question. Where is God in the midst of this? Why does God allow this? Especially at the beginning your faith is tested. You're angry. You're questioning. What can I say from the pulpit? I'm not the kind of pastor who ignores the context or politics or reality. When I preach, people notice about me. And it's always been like this. It's not as if in Gaza I began talking about this. So the question is, what do you say? What do you tell people, especially people who lost their loved ones? And the first time I said this concept of God is under the rubble in Gaza, I was preaching our church, of course, our congregation and one of the beloved ladies in our congregation has lost her sister in Gaza. She's in Bethlehem today, but her sister is in Gaza, and she was killed in the bombing of the church of San Perfilios. And she was mourning the attack happened on Friday night. We visited her on Saturday. She was mourning the death of her sister. The fact that she couldn't see her or say goodbye or how brutal it was. The roof fell on her when the church was bombed. And then Sunday you preach what you say, and I say, we search for God. Where is God when we suffer only to discover how in the gospels in the Christian, tradition we see Jesus asking the same question. My God, why have you forsaken me? It's not a question I can give a theological or philosophical answer to Where is God when we suffer, but say God weeps with us. That's why I said in Gaza God is under the rubble today. He shares the fate of his people. He is in solidarity with the oppressed. And that was in October. So when Christmas came no Christmas we can't celebrate normally no Christmas trees. We all advocated for this. None of us felt it was in a mood to celebrate. And so the question was, this is where we have the Christmas tree. What do we do? And I shared the idea with our church members, some of them and said, why not have this concept of rather than a traditional manger and a tree, let's bring rubble into the church. And have Jesus born in the rubble I'm grateful that the church members accepted the idea. Otherwise, this whole movement wouldn't have happened. It says a lot about our church. That they would allow such a thing. And so when I did it and the next day, the words that I said to our congregation, many of them were in tears when they saw the image, I said, this is the meaning of Christmas, the solidarity of God with the oppressed, given that Jesus was born in times of occupation, in times of an empire, and he wasn't born on the side of the empire. He was born on the side of the occupied. Harold tried to kill all the Children of Bethlehem, and Jesus survived. It was a very clear connection. Christmas story as a Palestinian story, and I wanted to emphasize more than anything that Jesus is in solidarity with us. This is the message of Christmas. That's why I said if Christ was to be born today, he was most likely be born in Gaza. And again, this was all my attempt to help our people keep their faith in a time of a genocide that they were watching live and feeling powerless to stop. The only answer I could give is I feel that God is in solidarity with us. And that was the concept behind Christ in the rubble. Of course, then I shared it on my social media and everything changed and it became a global movement and went viral. But in reality, it started with me trying to help our congregations, the faithful in our churches, make sense of what is happening today. Wow, you've given us more context there that you were trying to bring peace and processing to the people around you and the church and the followers of your church. And in that process, the message was so profound and so translatable that it spoke to the whole world. And thank God for that. Here we are sitting together because of a sermon like that, and hopefully that message is going to keep resonating with people until we see true peace and especially a ceasefire and end to what's happening right now. I know that a lot of this work brings you hope in some way. And you do a lot of hopeful work with these conferences, Christ at the Checkpoint Conferences, which are a platform for Palestinian Christians to share their perspectives with an international audience, especially evangelical Christians. And then you have also interfaith work you do through organizations like Musalaha, which is a ministry dedicated to reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. and Palestinians, which is even, I would say, a controversial aspect of your work, where even your own people, Palestinians, would be against you doing this work. So can you tell us some stories or something you've witnessed in some of these conferences that would hopefully send the same message as your Christ in the rubble sermon? It's different now, to be honest and it has always been one of the most difficult things I've done to continue doing and my own personal rationale for doing this is. I kept insisting that I need to see the other as, the way God sees him and, and as humans, we can't look at the other simply as enemies. There's so danger in, separation walls create and not just enmity, but this whole concept, you separate, you divide, you dehumanize, you demonize, you fear, and then you fight and justify violence. That's the rationale. I thought of it. And so I needed to remind myself that. On the other side of the wall, there are those who really love peace, and they are maybe they're not a big number right now as much as we wish them to be. But, over the years, even a group like an organization like Musalaha has developed a lot and understood the danger of normalization, which is let's get together to meet and to remind ourselves of one another's humanity into a group that now tries to build the concept of co-resistance. Resisting and co-liberation even that, we resist the occupation together. And to me, that's all indicating of the way I also have shifted in my understanding of peacemaking. You can't, peacemaking is not about getting along, you have to call things out. We have to fight the way in which we were lectured that if only we as Palestinians understood the Israeli narrative, we would accept them and then there will be peace. No, there is injustice, and that injustice must be called out, named, and then dismantled. We dismantle it together. But as I was, even sharing with friends yesterday that we can never forget that the goal of everything we're doing, and this is the most difficult part of what I'm doing now, honestly. And I feel even torn apart saying it because we're going under a genocide. The other side is openly seeking to eliminate us. But at the end of the day, if my response is let's eliminate them uh, you know, what's, and so the end result can't be dismantling Zionism. Or dismantling apartheid. That cannot be the end result. The end result is this vision of a shared life, regardless of which political solution we adopt in which, we're neighbors, which we're friends. Before the genocide, I used to tell my class, my students all the time, the goal is not to get rid of the occupation. The goal is to have become friends with the Israelis. At least that's the way I understand it. I say it's very difficult now, given the fact that. We're fighting for our survival. We even feel silly talking about reconciliation or peace. We're talking about survival more than anything. But that should not mean that we forget that ultimately the end goal must be not just that the genocide is over and those who commit war crimes are held accountable and justice is served, but that, you know, if we don't like Zionism, We need to create alternative structures. Yeah. and this is why I'm still engaged in interfaith reconciliation efforts. But at the same time, I'm very clear, uh, what's your position on Zionism? Is it apartheid or not? If you don't believe it's apartheid and that Zionism is wrong, I don't think we can talk, honestly. And Musalaha has now trying to establish this concept of co resistance. Let's dismantle apartheid. Apartheid together and then produce a model. That's the kind of interfaith work that I'm very encouraged about. I did a speaking tour in the United States in August of last year. And everywhere I went and believe me, I'm not exaggerating. I spoke more than 20 locations everywhere I went, there were Jews and Muslims. Most of the time in the front row, and I spoke mainly in churches. This is amazing. Gaza has brought us together. We have a joint cause. It's not all negative. Faith can be a cause for peace and reconciliation. I can't accept the idea that religion only divides. No, that's not true. And there's so much good that happened by faith leaders. Around the world. And I hope that we contribute. We bring peace to Palestine that we are part of what brings, even if a small part of what brings peace to our part. Sadly, let's be honest. The religion has been part of the problem. And so I hope that we can show a different path. Yeah. You speak so beautifully about the possiblity and what you're seeing in real time. The solidarity. Across faiths, and some of the spiritual violence that Zionism does to Jews is trying to convince the entire world, particularly Jewish youth outside of Israel, that everyone else hates us and that Muslim people in particular hate us. And I was raised with this idea that Jews were detested and that Israel is going to be the only place that I'm safe, right? That's a traumatizing idea. And so in joining the movement for a liberated Palestine and in getting to know other folks who were anti Zionist and Zionist critical, I have found all of the solidarity that This Zionist entity in the state of Israel told me I would never find in my life. And I think you speak to watching that solidarity develop as a result of Gaza. And I feel like I owe so much of my faith liberation in the community that I have now to Gaza and this ongoing movement. So again, thank you so much for, for being here and for lending your wisdom and your insight. So in your sermon, you said that if we as Christians are not outraged by the genocide, there is something wrong with our Christian witness, and we're really interested in this idea of bearing witness. So how does witnessing the suffering of Gaza challenge our faith and our relationship with God, when even you've said in your books that you felt angry with God and what is your call to action for religious leaders and people of faith? You can't witness and claim to worship God and to preach about the God of love and then turn a blind eye to a genocide. It's impossible to me. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't work. One plus one equals two. You preach about the love of God, the compassion of God, the justice of God. You speak about Gaza. You don't deny a genocide, you don't turn a blind eye, you don't justify it, you don't rationalize it, which again brings me back to the Christ in the rubble. One of the things I emphasize is that we were tired of people justifying and rationalizing the killing of our children. And so I said, no, we see the image of Jesus in every child pulled from under the rubble. I see a contradiction between claiming to worship Jesus, who is the embodiment of compassion. Read the gospel. Jesus is, wandering around and moved by compassion when he sees people. That's why he performed miracles. That's why he emphasized love as, you know, you ask anybody who doesn't know anything about Christianity, what did Jesus speak about? Peace and love, that's what Jesus was about. And then you're watching a genocide unfold in front of our whole world. Life on Earth. And you're justifying it, you're defending it, you're calling it self defense. That's what I couldn't understand. All of this comes from our conversation with partners, churches who kept saying these things. Jesus said something I And those who heard me in the last year know that I've shared about this all the time. Jesus said, this is how you will be judged on the day of judgment. In, in religion, religious traditions, everyone wants to make sure they make it to heaven and they don't go to heaven, right? That's, and Jesus said. On the day of judgment, we will separate. There will be those to the right, those to the left, and those who will come and Jesus will bring them to are the ones who Jesus said, because I was hungry and you fed me. I was thirsty and you gave me water. I was a stranger and you gave me a home. I was a prisoner and you visited me. Imagine and he said, Whatever you have done to the least of these you have done to me. And then he goes to the others. Go away from me you're cursed. I don't want you, I was hungry, you didn't feed me. I was thirsty. You didn't give me water. I was naked. You didn't give me clothes and say when I was in prison you didn't visit me. He said, whatever you have not done to the least of these, you have not done to me. How much more explicit does Jesus have to be to tell us that your religiosity is nothing if you don't help those who suffer from injustice, the victims of our unjust structures is an equivalent to this in Isaiah chapter 58 about religiosity and fasting and then setting people free. This is the essence of faith. It's not about religious traditions and they're important. The traditions are important. The liturgy is important. The prayers, the fasting, they're all important, but if they don't lead us to compassion, thirst for justice, thirst for peace, acting for peace, they're nothing. And this is how I understand my own calling as someone who's saved by Jesus and called to follow Jesus. This is the natural result of all of that. What gives you hope even as you're witnessing and experiencing this profound injustice and suffering? What's something that's bringing you hope right now? What brings me hope is the Sumud of the Palestinians. The resilience of the Palestinians, not just in Gaza, but over the last 76 years. We are a resilient people. We're not going anywhere. I hope we survive, honestly. And what gives me hope is the belief in who God is as a God of justice, God of truth. To me, there is this triangle of faith, hope and Sumud resilience. Because right now, to me, it feels even now. Wrong to talk about hope as Palestinians. We're literally it's like you're asking someone drowning. What's your hope? I just wish to survive. I wish someone to rescue me. So survival is maybe more fitting to talk about. That's why I talk about resilience that we survive. This is what's going to happen. The genocide in Gaza. Yes, I hope that we recover. I know we would recover. But I think of the resilience of the Palestinians. We're tough. I like to talk about our stubbornness as well. We're stubborn people. This resilience come from knowing that this is home. We have nowhere else to go, so we have to endure. We don't have an option. Sadly, many have chosen to leave. I understand why, but those of us who are here are determined, and I think that faith in the justice of God strengthens our soul strengthens our resilience. So it's both the nature of God as justice and righteousness, and then the resilience of the Palestinian people. I think, honestly, also I've been blessed and fortunate and the last year to travel South Africa to the UK to the United States and I've seen change. I've see the solidarity of many I've seen that even many lost their jobs. They lost everything. The students. All of this but as I said, ultimately. I hope at this stage, my hope is that we survive and that those in Gaza survive and then we can talk about rebuilding Gaza. Last question for you, Dr Munther. Would you share with us a post, poem or piece of writing that helps you navigate the turbulence of our world and your activism or a stress management practice that's been helpful to you? stress management. How do you do that in Palestine? You can't, uh, um, honestly this is there is this prayer that, have been so much prophetic and profound in my life and impactful. Prior to that, I didn't hear much about until I was an adult. And in 2016, January so that's nine years ago, I was ordained as a pastor. This was not the path I created, by the way, for myself or have chosen, I actually. Never thought I will become a pastor. Actually, I had to promise who's now my wife that I will never become a pastor before she said yes. You know, I Strongly believe this was God's calling to me. And I think 3 or 4 days before my ordination, a friend of mine sent me this prayer. It's called the Franciscan prayer. It's a long prayer, but there is some lines in it that have stayed with me because I feel somehow it shaped my ministry to a certain degree. Part of that prayer says, may God bless you with anger at injustice, oppression and exploitation of people. So that you may work for justice, freedom and peace. I love this concept of anger. It also says, may God bless you with tears to shed for those who suffer pain, rejection, hunger, and war. So that you may reach out your hand to comfort them and turn their pain into joy. And then it says, may God bless you with enough foolishness. to believe that you can make a difference in the world so that you can do what others claim cannot be done to bring justice and kindness to all our children and the poor. It's a beautiful prayer. Um, Whether it's the anger, it's the tears or the foolishness, To think that you can actually make a difference, and I love how the difference is to bring not just justice, but kindness empathy, and I will continue to pray this prayer for myself. Um, I would hate for if there will be a day in which I look at another image of a child pulled from under the rubble in Gaza and say can't change it and I'm not going to do anything about it or change the channel. I want to continue to be troubled, angry and cry whenever I see this so that I continue talking about it and advocating and thinking and strategizing. How do we bring an end to this? with this naivety or foolishness that we can actually make a difference. And so I will continue to pray this prayer, but hope that it in shapes and inspires my ministry. thank you so much for that prayer. So beautiful. And I will highlight the foolishness part of it as well, because I feel in my foolishness, I started this podcast, which took over my entire life. But thankfully, It's reaching the world and it's allowing us to connect with wonderful profound humans like you who are teaching us so much. And in that foolishness, there was some form of work that came about that hopefully is furthering peace and justice and even kindness because it's all about humanizing people. And talking about a profound human who humanized people yesterday was a day of mourning for the late President Jimmy Carter. And so I wanted to just honor his memory with some quotes. The first one "I have been in love with the Palestinian people for many years. I have two great grandsons that are rapidly learning about the people of Palestine and the anguish and suffering and deprivation of human rights they have experienced since 1948. Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land. God gives us the capacity for choice. We can choose to alleviate suffering. We can choose to work together for peace. We can make these changes, and we must. May you rest in peace. my share might sound shallow at first blush, but I think something that makes me angry and leads me to work towards justice is this violent chokehold that Zionism has had on the Jewish population for so long. And This existence of all Jews under threat of violence should we not submit to this Zionist political project that is itself so brutal. And I've seen my family members and my loved ones really succumb to this mythology that Zionism is our only liberation. But I have watched that chokehold loosen and begin to fail over the last 14 months in a way that is, I might cry talking about it, it's just something that brings me a lot of optimism, might be too strong a word, but fans the flames of my hope. And recently I posted an Instagram image, likening. Zionism to the KKK or to ISIS. ISIS is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity as Zionism is to Judaism. And my father, who I've had incredibly challenging conversations with about About this for the last 14 months liked that post, which seems insignificant, but it isn't we have been having the biggest fights. My dad and I have ever had have consistently been about Israel and Zionism and he's a single father. He raised my sisters and I by himself. And so to see him react to this post, where I'm essentially comparing Zionism to the KKK was so shocking. I took a screenshot of it and I sent it to my sisters and I was like, Dad just liked it. And they're like, Hey, yeah, this is so cool. So I know that might seem, paltry or small, but to me and my sort of familial universe, I know you talked about family as one of your joys early in our conversation. It was enormous. And I think really, Yeah. Indicates how the messaging of Zionism is failing in the hearts and minds of Jewish people in the United States, and I hope it continues to do so it is making a fool of itself. Dr. Munther, thank you so much for being with us today. It was such an honor and pleasure. Wow, I learned so much from you. And I also am leaving this feeling somewhat lighter with my faith, but also more emboldened and strengthened to continue this co resistance that we have together until the peace that we are hoping for together. Thank you so much. Again, thank you for having me. We'll end with our closing prayer. May all beings everywhere thrive in peace and dignity and share in all our joys. And may we see true peace in the Middle East for all in our lifetime.